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GateWorld
January 2nd, 2006, 07:00 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/218.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/218.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/218.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none"><B>MICHAEL</B></A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 218</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
An amnesiac young Lieutenant in Atlantis suffers from disturbing nightmares that he is a Wraith, only to make a shocking discovery about himself.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/218.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Jodi518
January 16th, 2006, 05:34 PM
Michael...does that episode air in canada tonight?

Qasim
January 16th, 2006, 05:39 PM
Yes it does

SmallTimePerson
January 16th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Michael...does that episode air in canada tonight?
yes, but why make a thread about it?

Qasim
January 16th, 2006, 05:42 PM
to find out the answer?

James_the_Wraith_Sympathiser
January 16th, 2006, 05:51 PM
Search is your friend.

Qasim
January 16th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Search is your friend.Whats the big deal dude had a question - question got answered - should have been end of story

SmallTimePerson
January 16th, 2006, 06:09 PM
From thread is there any new ep tonight? (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=21668&highlight=canada)

Stargate: Atlantis 2: Ep. 16 - The Long Goodbye January 2 - 8:00 pm
Stargate: Atlantis 2: Ep. 17 - Coup D'Etat January 9 - 8:00 pm
Stargate: Atlantis 2: Ep. 18 - Michael January 16 - 8:00 pm
Stargate: Atlantis 2: Ep. 19 - Inferno January 23 - 8:00 pm
Stargate: Atlantis 2: Ep. 20 - Allies January 30 - 8:00 pm

That's the schedual for the remainder of the season

James_the_Wraith_Sympathiser
January 16th, 2006, 06:17 PM
I believe the phrase is...'w00t'.

Qasim
January 16th, 2006, 06:19 PM
WTF? You were all n00bs once give the 'holier than thou' crap a rest

Lightsabre
January 16th, 2006, 06:23 PM
Qasim is right here, I think
If this guy is a n00b, tell him once to use the search, then drop it.
He doesn't need lectures.

Jodi518
January 16th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Okay i just had a question...im sorry for the conflict i caused...i didnt know that there was a thread where i could find the answer. Well are all friends here so lets just drop the subject or better yet delete the thread...:)

tfalls1
January 16th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Why is there no Episode Thread started in the Episode section?

slammed
January 16th, 2006, 08:42 PM
i was wondering the same thing... and my cousin 'biet-torrant' has not called to tell me how it was...

Akai
January 16th, 2006, 09:00 PM
Yes, this is unusual...perhaps it did not air?

spirited Chihiro
January 16th, 2006, 09:03 PM
No i think it did air..someone in one of the ship threads did some sort of summary...i think.
Maybe the canadians have all gone to bed?

FallenAngelII
January 16th, 2006, 09:33 PM
Oh my, I thought Stargate aired on wednesdays or something in Canada. Whohoo! New eppy!

Akai
January 16th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Hm...still no sign of the episode or any indication that it aired. If it did you'd think there would be an official thread or at least people talking about it...

Akai
January 16th, 2006, 09:44 PM
Just checked http://www.tmn.ca/. It says next showing is Jan 17, 1:45 AM. I don't know if that's the first showing or not, but I could ask some of my Canadian friends when I get home from work. Maybe we're just too early.

coldpower27
January 16th, 2006, 09:47 PM
Very well, since no ones want to do some thoughts. Star Gate Atlantis Season 2 Episode 18 did air in Canada in 8-9PM EST, I watched it on the Rogers Network on Channel 301, I was lucky that I caught it too, didn't know it airs Monday's.

I was really glad it was Connor Trinneer playing Micheal Kenmore as I really like this actor for some reason, I can't really say too much or I would be giving it away but I like how Teyla struggles with her morals values when dealing with this situation on whether what they are doing is right. It also shows how Ronin hates the Wraiths so much and can barely contain his feelings even when he is required to do so.

It's too bad though, I was hoping that Connor would be coming in for a recurring role, and the effects of this episodes make sense as we are nearing the finale Episode 19 & 20 for this Season. Now as Colonel Sheppard say it "We need more firepower". :)

Wraith_Hunter
January 17th, 2006, 03:17 AM
Okay just saw it & will give away some spoilers for ahyone who wishes to know what happens in it. Especially as there somehow still isn't an episode discussion thread opened right now



It starts of with 'Michael' in the med lad, he's totally human & wakes up with complete amnesia. Weir & Shep come to him after being told by Beck that he's awake. They inform him that his name is Michael & he works under Shep's command as a soldier in Atlantis.

This goes on for a little while, he's told that he has diabetes & needs a daily injection to control it. Of course it's really his daily dosage of the retro-virus. They haven't refined it enough for the long term, some it needs to be administered every day to supress the bug part completely. The team have a meeting, which includes Beck & Dr.Heightmeyer. Those two along with Weir have support for releasing him as they think it will aid him in his recovery. Shep doesn't agree but he's overuled. So he's released & taken to his quarters by Teyla,. She shows him a cowboy hat & tells him he's from Texas. As well as telling him two people in a photo are his parents. He is sleeping (dream sequence now) then wakes up, he wanders over to the mirror & looks in it, suddenly it's a Wraith reflection that staring back at him. He wakes up from the dream in a cold sweat.

Next day, he's sparring with Teyla. Bits & pieces are starting to come to him now. Teyla beats him good in the first practise. She tells him that he is a good fighter & that he was a hero etc, he was on a mission before he was captured by the Wraith. So they restart & this time he gets the better of Teyla & throws her to the ground. Suddenly Ronon come in & grabs him & flings him back against the wall. Then without breaking rythm, picks him up against the wall by the throat in a supreme show of strength. Teylan screams that it's only training & to let him go.

He is talking to Teyla about the dream that he has had, she assures him that he isn't the only one. She has also had them as well as other members of the expedition who have came into contact with the Wraith. That calms him down a bit.

Later on, he's in the mess hall eating, he has two guards that are shadowing him everywhere. McKay comes past him holding a Tablet PC, he seems lost for words & they don't really know what to say to each other. While talking McKay turns the screen of the pc slightly towards Michael. Who immediately recognises the Wraith schematics that are on the screen as the materializer that's on the Dart, probably the one that was recovered from 'Duet'. He asks McKay how did he know that, he's told that he knows it because that was him mission when he was originally captured. Again he seems to believe it.

He's sleeping & has another nightmare, so he wakes up & goes over to the med lab to see Beck. He's there but is fast asleep, Michael galnces over at an exposed laptop (haven't they ever heard of power saving mode), he takes it along with a few other things & goes back to his quarters. He goes through the cd's on the laptop. Know he finally finds out that he's a Wraith. The team rush to him, he confronts them & accuses them of being hypocrites. It goes on about how evil the Wraith are & that he's better of the way he is know etc.

They take him for his treatment when he momentarily escapes, he ambushes & shoots a soldier dead before being recaptured. He's taken to the Atlantian holding cell that the other captured Wraith have also been held in.

The team meets to decide his fate, Ronon wants to kill him, McKay surprisingly agrees. Weir wa nts to continue on the drug with a stronger dosage to see what happens with that. So it's decided to move him to the Alpha site, they do that just incase a Wraith ship is flying close to Lantia & he connects with them & reveals all about Atlantis.

So he's knocked out & sedated for the journey. He awakes in the med lab on the Alpha site, a bit groggy but he's been restrained. He somehow connects with Teyla & gets her to help him escape his bindings. He takles her hostage & escapes into the woods towards the gate. Ronon & Shep are hot on their heels, he kills another 2 guards. He manages to dial the gate & get through as Shep & Ronon are right behind them firing. However they manage to get through.

They are about to call in McKay to strip the DHD down in order to get the last dialled locations. However Ronon finds a piece of tablet, that has gat sysmbols on it. Michael whose memory is coming back now must have wrote them down one symbol at a time to help him remember.

They are through when somehow Teyla is knocked out. She awakens a short time later, alone, her restraints have been cut off, as well as her vest. She turns around to be startled by a rapidly changing Michael, who is well on his way back to his true Wraith form. She senes that they aren't alone on the planet & that it's full of Wraith & they are coming to them. He says he knows & that's why he brough them there. She turns around to see a docked Hive ship, Cruisers are flying twoards it. There is a lot of activity going on. She asks Michael to go back & get his treatment. He tells her that he is going back to who he really is. She know knows that she's going to get fed upon, if not by him then by the Wraith who are on their way to them on foot. So she says to him that he may as well go ahead & feed on her. He walks over & puts his feeding hand slowly towards her, then suddenly pulls it back at the last minute. Teyla breaths a huge sigh of relief, but then just as quick, he fires the hand back towards her chest. Right then Shep & Ronon come blazing in behind them, they shoot him up pretty good. Then the Wraith reinforcements arrive, lots of the grunts chase them away. Then real Wraith come over to Michaels body & say he is still alive, they pick him up & carry him towards thr Hive ship.

The final scene switches back to Atlantis, they are holding an urgent meeting. They know he will tell all & know Atlantis' cover has been blown again. It's only a matter of time before they get to the planet again, McKay says that the cloaking act won't fool them a second time.

Then Shep says that they need some powerful weapons, then it ends.

Roll on, 'Inferno'. This is the one that I really want to see, since it has the Aurora Warship. Hope it isn't destroyed & they get to use it for the season finale.

Willow'sCat
January 17th, 2006, 04:13 AM
Thanks for that. ;) :)

GateMan2000
January 17th, 2006, 05:29 AM
Sounds great!

shockwave
January 17th, 2006, 06:35 AM
It was a good episode. Not the best one though. This is the season 2 equivalent of "The Gift".

macktheknife
January 17th, 2006, 08:05 AM
Quite boring IMO, especially after he found out about it. He's a wraith, so does anyone really care? At least it's a setup to the last few eps. No character devlopement, no real team work, no problem to solve, just running around trying to hide it, then trying to fix it when it got blown. No real "solution" to any problem at all, just "oh well, we're screwed".

EDIT - Despoilerd now it's in the episode thread.

Olinne
January 17th, 2006, 08:31 AM
It was great! While i was watching it i couldn't stop saying "how can they do that!", and when Beckett was lying to Michael! Oh my!
Now i'm thinking maybe the wraith aren't evil, michael as a human was so kind, when he try to talk with Ronin...
i just loved it! and now i understand why Weir will darkened..

macktheknife
January 17th, 2006, 09:35 AM
I think they missed a vital chance for some exposition (is that the right word?) about the wraith, their motives etc etc just beyond "food". They had some with ellia, but not much, and now an ep with a wraith, and they keep talking about him being human.

Beal
January 17th, 2006, 10:21 AM
Good episode, I liked it, but did anyone else notice how mikey was walking around like he had hemroids?

starfox
January 17th, 2006, 10:29 AM
There's a part of me that wishes "Hey! Michael's a Wraith!" hadn't been in every available description of this episode, because I think it would have made the regulars seem so much more sinister at the beginning.

Not my favorite episode, but pretty decent nonethe less.

During all of Mikey's sessions with Heightmeyer I kept thinking, *he is so gonna feed on you when he gets the chance*. And as much as I like occasional appearances of Heightmeyer, Michael seriously needed to get pissed at her. Would have been so fun.

I love that everyone was so much darker, that aspect of the ep rocked my socks. Integrating Michael w/ the community? The military community? Not so much. Making him a scientist and telling him that he had been working on understanding Wraith tech would have been so much more beneficial and would have done much more to push the view of the Atlantis command staff beginning to develop a more mercenary attitude.

This was a nice ep for actually seeing Teyla instead of having her shoved back in a corner. I may have growled a little when I saw her being taken hostage (because she is not a damsel in distress type of girl), I liked her scratching out the gate address on the rock; showed ingenuity.

I also really liked Mikey using his Wraith telepathic ability to get Teyla to free him. It worked really well.
Ficcers: No Michael/Teyla fic. No! I know you're thinking about it; stop now. Step away from the keyboard...

I know Michael had to live and escape to set up the next couple of eps, but couldn't they have made it a bit more difficult? Put him in a cage and make him kill a few guards to escape, have Sheppard shoot at him and have a drone/guard Wraith get in the way. The way it was done just makes the command staff look weak and stupid.

Loved Beckett in this ep. He had a comparatively small number of scenes, but those few scenes managed to do a lot for him and where he's going.
(although I didn't buy the "sleeping in the lab" scene. You don't sleep that soundly in that position, sorry, no. Head should have been on his arms)

So, not the best, not the worst, but decent.

minigeek
January 17th, 2006, 10:39 AM
I really enjoyed this episode. The writing was strong, the directing, and the acting. I loved that there was interaction with the entire team, and the moral fibre of the story was compelling for me as well. It resonated. Definitely one of my favorite Atlantis episodes for the season, if not for the entire run so far.

I wasn't a huge fan of ENTERPRISE (as a series) while it was on the air, so I didn't have too much of a "fan-ish" preconceived notion of the way the title role would end up being played by Connor, but I thought he did a fabulous job as "Michael" - both the Human and the Wraith side(s) of him. And I'm terribly glad they left the possibility open for his return in future, should the story arise.

No time for a long or thorough review, per se, but just wanted to pop in here and say - really good stuff, overall.

mini

Buzz Lightyear
January 17th, 2006, 11:27 AM
There's a part of me that wishes "Hey! Michael's a Wraith!" hadn't been in every available description of this episode, because I think it would have made the regulars seem so much more sinister at the beginning.

I love that everyone was so much darker, that aspect of the ep rocked my socks. Integrating Michael w/ the community? The military community? Not so much. Making him a scientist and telling him that he had been working on understanding Wraith tech would have been so much more beneficial and would have done much more to push the view of the Atlantis command staff beginning to develop a more mercenary attitude.

I know Michael had to live and escape to set up the next couple of eps, but couldn't they have made it a bit more difficult? Put him in a cage and make him kill a few guards to escape, have Sheppard shoot at him and have a drone/guard Wraith get in the way. The way it was done just makes the command staff look weak and stupid.

I was thinking some of the same things. I actually liked the fact that there was moral ambiguity in this episode, though it didn't seem to ring true that Beckett would be the most in favour of doing these experiments (where's Caldwell when you need him?). However, I was also bugged that the military command was so lax around Michael, considering all their previous encounters with any wraith.

Auralis
January 17th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Not a bad episode at all.
However the whole retro virus thing is just plain stupid from the get go.

in circles
January 17th, 2006, 12:40 PM
I have a hard time believing they all thought the virus was a good idea. I find it pretty morally wrong that they figured he'd be better off now he was human.

Liverpool_chicK
January 17th, 2006, 12:41 PM
I liked this episode. I must say that they must finally gotten out of there 'let's take ideas from SG-1 and use them in Atlantis.' It was nice to see something that did not really involve having think with the gun and not with their head. I also liked that the fact that almost everyone involve with the project had some form of moral problem, it was just me or did anyone else find it odd that Elizabeth didnt really have a problem with the experiment and was completely out of touch with her human side.

dark_faith
January 17th, 2006, 01:36 PM
I had great expectation for this ep and I wasn't too disappointed.

At first, I didn't care they were doing such experiments because he is a Wraith... but the more you learn about the whole thing, the more you realize he looks more human than Weir, Shep and co.
The Wraith are monsters because they feed on us... That how they eat! So what are we for killing animals? The wraiths look more human than ever.

I LOVE Teyla! she was just amazing in this ep

The other characters seemed .. different, not themself. I didn't recognize Weir, Shep, Beckett... everything they do is pretty stupid.

How sure were they about the success of this experiment? Apparently enough to bring Michael on Atlantis. If they had brought him on the alpha site first, then, Michael would have tought the city had been destroy.... But seems too complicated for them to think about it.

Loved the fact we get to see more of the city.

Felt like an episode written to prepare the season final...

I felt compassion for Michael and in this episode WE look like the bad guys... I really didn't like the characters. I'm not even talking about this arrogant way they think they're superior...

Liked the ep but didn't recognize our Characters.

caty
January 17th, 2006, 01:47 PM
I had great expectation for this ep and I wasn't too disappointed.



I LOVE Teyla! she was just amazing in this ep

The other characters seemed .. different, not themself. I didn't recognize Weir, Shep, Beckett... everything they do is pretty stupid.



Liked the ep but didn't recognize our Characters.

That is how I feel.... I just didn't buy Shep, Weir and Beckett, their reactions seemed waaaaay too careless and even kinda cold.
Teyla and Ronon I recognized..

What I really hate about all this is that we're actually at the same place with the same situation than after last season's 18th episode.. The Wraith know that Atlantis exists and where it is and they're gonna launch an attack. Now the the team needs to work out how to safe the city. Good for last season, but is getting pretty lame now.

Otherwise, I thought it was one of the better episodes this season, but no match for 'Critical Mass', 'Conversion' or 'Coup D'Etat'..

Jeffer
January 17th, 2006, 01:48 PM
good ep glad to see Trip(don't know his real name...or even if that was his name from Enterprise) is finding work after enterprise i would have liked it to be a suprise that he was a Wriath but i'm sure they told us that cause eveyrone would have known the second they say him

dark_faith
January 17th, 2006, 01:52 PM
What I really hate about all this is that we're actually at the same place with the same situation than after last season's 18th episode.. The Wraith know that Atlantis exists and where it is and they're gonna launch an attack. Now the the team needs to work out how to safe the city. Good for last season, but is getting pretty lame now.

Otherwise, I thought it was one of the better episodes this season, but no match for 'Critical Mass', 'Conversion' or 'Coup D'Etat'..

Totally agree. It kinda spoil the suspens. I'm not even looking forward to ALLIES ( The title scares me, looks like our characters are gonna be even more stupid than in Michael...)

I've got kind of a weird feeling toward this ep... I loved it but I hated it cause the PTB is playing a bad game with our charcaters.

They make a story up and fill it in with the characters so they can fit the story.... We should follow OUR characters and what happen to them ... BUt here again, it's called continuity and character developpement.... Doesn't exist in SG

IMForeman
January 17th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Cool episode. I wish I'd never read the spoilers for it, though. I'd like to have seen this not knowing where this was going. There's gonna be repercussions from this episode, I know it... and as the doctor who delivered me said "this is gonna get ugly."

Dorka
January 17th, 2006, 02:11 PM
o.k here my thoughts for Michael:

- it was a little too much cut-in into the events... not that I couldn't follow the whole act, but it's a quite heavy beginning and heavy end

- The guy who played "Michael" *melts* really good looking... I really felt with Teyla wanting to be his "Friend" *coughs*

- I liked the little character-developement for Teyla... in the first season I really didn't care about Teyla, but now I'm more and more interested in her and she's growing to my favourites ;)

- Aaarrrgghhh...I don't know but I think Ronan should start becoming more Earth-people like after living with them for nearly one year... I mean, he can't just be ruled THAT much by aggression...every episode he either wants to kill somebody, torture somebody or fight... and this starts to get boring *coughs*

- I really like McKay but don't having him as the MAIN character who saves them all was kinda relieve-like in this episode...and after reading the spoilers, I'm quite sure he'll get enough to do in the next 2 episodes ;)

- Atlantis in the mist *squeee* THAT was great!

- Seeing new areas of the city just made me being more confortable...really cool and I definitely LOVE the quarters...*wants to have such a big room too* :D

- I made the fault to watch the episode in total dark, with headphones on and alone at home, ergo, I nearly got a heart-attack when Michael saw himself as a Wraith the first time again

- Heightmeyer...definitely like this women ;)

- Hm, I'm not sure yet about Weir an Beckett, if they really were OOC... but I like the way Weir changed. She thinks more realistc than she had...and John actually started to really accept all her decisions without trying to convince her about something else...!

- the End was mean... *whoooo* the Wraith are coming...kinda "D&#233;j&#224;-vu" moment :D

- Finally the first fault I noticed *lol*... when Michael takes away the photo of his parents the Laptop beside him is closed...but on the Camera-view it's open :D

O.K I'll rewatch this episode tomorrow, so I might find other things ;)

donniepw
January 17th, 2006, 02:16 PM
Seems to me the only one who was thinking straight was Ronan. Who in the world actually thought bringing a wraith to Atlantis was a good idea? What's next? How about we bring a wraith through the gate to the SGC and inplant him with a Goa'uld and see if we can't all be friends. To me the biggest problem with this episode is that all the main characters with the exception of Ronan and maybe Teyla seemed to take leave of their senses. Wier and Beckett really seemed out of character in this episode. Now we are practically right back where we were this point in season one, the wraith are comming, again. Just seems a bit soon to revisit this particular plot line.

Merlin7
January 17th, 2006, 02:24 PM
A disturbing ep. Guess this is the DARK ep that Torri was talking about for Weir and Beckett. interesting that Beckett wanted to do this and Weir approved it.

I thought their reactions and their ability to lie to him so easily was chilling. OOC too. Kind of. Hmmm. Must ponder that more.

Shep and Teyla and Ronon and Rodney seemed IN character for me.

Too much with Kate and Michael and Michael and teyla moments. Repetitious when I would have preferred Michael interact with others more. And given that Shep had done his own conversion, I would have liked a scene with him and Michael that was along that lines. Somehow.

Like Ronon and Shep working together to get Teyla back.

I think it was interesting how everyone felt about it. Ronon was all about Michael being a Wraith. Period. I think he's right. Teyla believed in Michael's humanity. ::wishful thinking::

Shep didnt' seem to relate to Michael as either. Like he kept himself detached about that aspect of it. It was nice to see him worried about the safety aspects of letting Michael wander about, even witha guard. And he seemed focused on the end result of the experiment.

Beckett and Weir's reactions still unsettle me.

Rodney was too the point. He wasn't comfortable around Michael and he, obviously, still saw him as a Wraith/threat.

The moral ethics here are very interesting.

I can accept what Shep said. They are at war. And that's a fact. And Weir's decision to do this has now led to them being rediscovered and back in danger. That falls totally on her shoulders and I wonder if there will be follow through to that in INFERNO and ALLIES.

Interesting how after he question to Shep about how do they differ from the Wraith in Critical mass given the Torture issue and all, and now she does this? Yeah...waffle much?

I found Teyla and Ronon and Shep to be as they have been before. Their reactions were true to their past actions/beliefs.

Yeah...interesting ep. Not as good as Coup but, interesting.

And, because I'm shallow at times. SHEP WAS HOT! Everyone did a great job acting but Connor and Joe were the best for me.

xfkirsten
January 17th, 2006, 02:25 PM
I liked this episode. I must say that they must finally gotten out of there 'let's take ideas from SG-1 and use them in Atlantis.' It was nice to see something that did not really involve having think with the gun and not with their head. I also liked that the fact that almost everyone involve with the project had some form of moral problem, it was just me or did anyone else find it odd that Elizabeth didnt really have a problem with the experiment and was completely out of touch with her human side.

*raises hand* I did! It's interesting in light of the change we've seen in her over the last several episodes - letting go of the ideals which she's held so closely. Still, at the same time I thought it was really odd that she didn't seem the least bit opposed to this one. Sure, she's had twelve days to come to terms with her decision, but there was absolutely no hint that she second-guessed herself at all on the decision to experiment on him.

randy
January 17th, 2006, 02:26 PM
They make a story up and fill it in with the characters so they can fit the story.... We should follow OUR characters and what happen to them ... BUt here again, it's called continuity and character developpement.... Doesn't exist in SG

Maybe that is due to the episode being plot driven instead of character driven - not every episode need be pure character development.

Mackan
January 17th, 2006, 02:38 PM
Very good performance from the Michael actor. He would have been a great addition for a permanent role in Atlantis.

Not sure if they really explained why they suddenly had a Wraith in capture. How did they get hold on Michael in the first place, they could have taken a minute or two and showed that. Was a bit too sudden opening in this ep.

Ronon, not sure what he actually have accomplished in this second season of Atlantis. I read the writers said he would add a lot to Atlantis team, but I haven't seen him as a crucial teammember yet. He has had little to do, we need to get more backstory on him.

Weir seems to be more straightforward in her decisions now. She is willing to risk more. We see a more "darker" side of her coming.

In general, I get the feeling that the Atlantis team is doing the wrong decisions all the time. For example, in the last eps, they trusted the genii guy in Coup, they trusted the alien in Long Goodbye, and they now thought the retrovirus would be a good thing all the time in this episode, except Teyla and Ronon. And probably more mistakes to come.

And as another user here pointed out, we almost get the same situation again as in last season. The Wraith again know of Atlantis. I wish we could see more of events from the Wraiths eyes, clips or sequences where the Wraiths talk to each other.

eccscape
January 17th, 2006, 03:07 PM
I actually liked this one!! I've always been partial to the 'morality' episodes and it was about time they did one here. I'm sure someone has done it at some point, but i have often thought of starting a thread that basically said "who are we to say we are the superior ones". Does everyone remember the episode 'Pretence' in SG1 where Lord Sepakna says someting like "if a human has the right to take a pig and do what it wishes with it because he is a superior being, then so does a goa'uld, because he is a superior being."

I thought Conner Trinner was excellent as Michael. Especially in the early parts of the episode. I really empathised with him, to the extent that even when he was a wraith i still felt for him which was obviously need for the episode. But i can imagine other actors not pulling that off as well.
Rachel was great again, and i liked the new development that the wraith can 'make' her do things. that could be interesting in the future.

Beckett..now there was one specific moment i will remember from this episode..when elizabeth turns to him and asks if he wants to up the dose. He really seemed to be wrestling, but more importantly as soon as he said 'yes' he almost looked ashamed with himself. Ashamed that there was something in him, some character trait that would allow him to take that action...which brings to mind something else...

People have been saying that we are fiting the characters to the plot and that developments don't match what we know of our characters. i do see your point but i also think we have to be careful not to put our characters in a box that they started in and say 'this character is defined by these values and will not stray'. Obviously people are way way more complicated than that. Not only are there things we don't know about these guys, but there are things they don't even know about themselves. and after all, alot has happened to all of them. Look at what 7yrs as a runner did to ronon. there are bound to be consequences for our lot too. However, I actually agree in the case of Weir for this episode. I believe her characters 'omg how could i have done/said that' was really in 'critical mass' where she almost resorted to torture. but i did believe it for beckett in this episode, mainly because of the scene and his reaction mentioned above. he almost looked scared!

Arlessiar
January 17th, 2006, 03:34 PM
Oh wow, this episode wasn't easy to accept for me. Interesting, yes, well-made too, and I guess it was its goal to make people think about the moral ambiguity of human beings. But I still think what the team did was very questionable. Their motives were a little disturbing. I know, we often heard that Beckett and Weir are getting "darker", but still, I had some very serious "out of character" thoughts during this episode. Mostly with Sheppard. Less with Weir, that's where her character was going since the last eps.
I could understood Ronon very well, he was the only one who had real doubts. But then again, he also didn't say that the ethics behind this experiment were questionable. He just thought that a Wraith will ever be a Wraith, and so he simply didn't trust Michael.
Beckett made me wonder. He developed this retrovirus, but he never seems to be comfortable with that. Whenever they talked about Michael he looked as if he was tortured emotionally. He even openly blamed himself. Well, it's a little late for that now. It will be interesting to see where his character will be going in the future. Sciene versus morale seems to be a real conflict for him, but he clearly doesn't stand on either side completely. Well, the "good ol' Doc Beckett" is definitely the Beckett of the past. Not that this must be a bad thing, but it's definitely not so easy to accept for me.
I wonder how do they want to explain their actions to the SGC in their weekly report.
This ep didn't make the mistake to tell the viewer what is wrong and what is right. They leave it open, so that everyone can think about it. But then again, you also see that the heroes of the show, the characters you like and identifiy with, think their actions were justified. Nearly all of them. And this gives me the impression that it is expected that the viewer should be on their side because it's normally the side of "the good guys".
Well... not that I think that the Wraith are so wonderful that no-one should do them any harm. It's war, and war often calls for desperate measures. But did they have the right to take an individual and force him to undergo this drastic changes which, and let's try to be realistic, won't have a happy ending? I mean, they couldn't really expect that this will work and that he'll be a happy member of the Atlantis crew/earth citizen from then on, could they? Can you give someone a identity just like that and it will work out? Even if Michael suspected nothing - some day someone would have made a wrong comment or two people would have contradicted each other in an aspect concerning him.
And if their goal was to make him believe that he is a human - why does Heightmeyer suggest hypnosis then to help him remember 'his past'? The danger that Wraith memories would come through is high!



Other things I noticed:

- So Rodney loves blue jello. It's official now! Ever since his appearances in SG1 this was mentioned in fanfics. And now they said it on the show and made it canon. I thought that was very funny!
- Carson falling asleep. Yes, he must have been exhausted, but I highy doubt that he slept very deeply in this position and wouldn't have been awakened by Michael's actions.
- Physical therapy? Hehe, that was everything but PT! :)
- The Set. I know that they only have a limited amount of rooms on the set and need some rooms for several different locations, but it's very obvious sometimes. The private room in the infirmary was the same as the operating theatre in "Coup D'etat". Let's hope they have no emergency, or more than this one OR. :D Did you see it, the floor of the surveillance room above the OR was made of wood! Never seen that before in Atlantis. And there were large black drapes on the big window.
What I like is that they are at least consequential with the rooms - Heightmeyers office is still the same it ever was (and Ronon's quarter from "Runner" is identical with her office. :))
- The door to Michael's quarter. So there are still doors you need to open by hand in Atantis! That they gave him this room with a glass door was logical, this way they could always watch him from outside. But it would have made me even more suspicious if I was Michael.
- The computer they put into Michael's room. I wonder if someone actually made that thing look as if it was used already, with faked emails for example. :D
- Why did Michael went to bed with scrubs the second night?
- The calendar in the infirmary with pictures from Scotland! Very cute! But there were actually entries/dates on it. I always thought that an earth calendar would be of no use on Atlantis because the days are longer there. But maybe they want to stick to it, no matter if the seasons don't match.
- I thought it was an interesting idea that Michael used Teyla to escape. But wow, I didn't know that she was such a security risk. Look how easy it was for Michael to manipulate her, I don't even want to know what a 100% Wraith could make her do. She faced one in The Siege III, but there she just experienced pain and didn't become his marionette.
- The alpha site. That's the first time we actually saw the alpha site, right? Looks a lot like the one earth has in SG1! :)

Saw another German scientist this time. And good news for the Aussies - there were two Australians in this episode! A woman from the medical department in the cafeteria and a person that was walking down the stairs when they escorted Michael to the infirmary.

Patbay
January 17th, 2006, 05:14 PM
dont neone get to down on where there heading with the storyline ;-) wait till u see allies! ^^

spirited Chihiro
January 17th, 2006, 05:21 PM
Saw another German scientist this time. And good news for the Aussies - there were two Australians in this episode! A woman from the medical department in the cafeteria and a person that was walking down the stairs when they escorted Michael to the infirmary.

Awesome..i will have to keep my eye out, well that is if i remember once it actually makes it to australia!

Shipperahoy
January 17th, 2006, 05:25 PM
OMG! I LOVED this episode. This is how I wish I could feel after an episode of SG-1 this season. Sure my letch for Connor Trineer could have something to do with my love of this episode (only he could still be sexy in Wraith make-up), but it's not just that. This episode really addressed some deep issues and didn't offer pat answers to those questions. Everything wasn't tied up in a neat little bow and I was still left wondering about the ethical ramification of team Atlantis's treatment of Michael. It also opens up a whole 'nother door regarding the Wraith and whether they're really and truly evil or if they are simply in a sense "meat-eaters". I mean, I eat a hamburger and I don't really think about the cow that provided it. Does that make me evil to cows?:cameron:

The episode also makes me wonder whether Michael's Wraith instincts would have still taken over if he hadn't figured out what they had done to him? Would he just have continued on with the treatments or would they have eventually taken him over anyway? There was a great dynamic between him and Teyla, sort of like recognizing like, which is a nice follow-up to Teyla's Wraith DNA and I really liked their interaction. Oddly enough it also makes me wonder about Wraith mating practices. I know I know...I'm a naughty girl. But seriously is it like an insect thing? The one queen and the drones? Things that make you go hmmm...

So we're all set up for another siege on Atlantis. I hope it's something more interesting than that though. I look forward to seeing how Atlantis diverts disaster this time.

Buzz Lightyear
January 17th, 2006, 05:31 PM
dont neone get to down on where there heading with the storyline ;-) wait till u see allies! ^^

But do the ends justify the means?

ToasterOnFire
January 17th, 2006, 05:57 PM
I thought it was a good episode. Interesting plot, good pacing, no subplot distractions, and some welcome screentime for other characters.


-Trineer did a great job here. He made me sympathize with him through the ep, even when he was turning back into a wraith. Great casting decision on this one.

-I was spoiled for this episode. Out of all the episodes I wish I hadn't have spoiled myself on, this is it. The mystery and shock were subsequently ruined for me, and I feel like I would have enjoyed the episode much more if I didn't know the truth about Michael.

-Yes, the retroviral science is a complete fanwank. There's no way one could cause that drastic of a physical change by suppressing certain genes. More likely the subject would die. It's sci-fi, emphasis on FICTION. :D

-I agree with Mackan - the team have been making some very poor decisions in the last couple of episodes. Why on earth was the security so lax around Michael? No one saw him sneak the DVDs out of the medical area? Why was he given a computer in his quarters in the first place? Why weren't there more guards, with drawn weapons, escorting Michael once he knew he was a wraith? And most baffling, why weren't there any guards in his room at the alpha site? Is the only way to drive the plot by making the team look inept? I miss Bates - he would have done things much better.

-I liked how this episode focused a lot on Michael's POV to keep the viewer out of the loop. I also liked how the spotlight was on characters other than McKay, Shep, and Weir. Teyla really shone in this episode, it really highlighted her compassion and quick thinking when she was captured. Wasn't that impressed with the Heightmeyer scenes - I would have preferred to have more scenes with Michael and Beckett to really emphasize how much this bothered the doctor.

-I also thought it was odd that Weir would be okay with this project. It would have been nice to see a scene or two where she expressed more doubt and concern. I understand that the character is supposedly getting darker, but it's somewhat hard to believe because it seems so sudden. She did decide to torture Kav in Critical Mass, but in the end of that episode she showed her uncertainly with the decision. In this episode there was none of that and it just felt off.

-Ye gods, why did anyone let McKay talk to Michael? He truly is awful at bluffing. ;)

-Also, does the stargate wormhole normally shut down that quickly after it's opened? I thought it stayed open longer than that, which would have allowed Ronon and Shep to also get through.

-Like caty said, season two's final problem is identical to season one's - the wraith know about Atlantis and they're coming. Good the first time, not so good the second.

macktheknife
January 17th, 2006, 06:19 PM
-Also, does the stargate wormhole normally shut down that quickly after it's opened? I thought it stayed open longer than that, which would have allowed Ronon and Shep to also get through.


We all know, the stargate's shutdown is variable, depending on what the show needs, it just knows. :D

SmallTimePerson
January 17th, 2006, 06:31 PM
-Like caty said, season two's final problem is identical to season one's - the wraith know about Atlantis and they're coming. Good the first time, not so good the second.
no it is not identical to the first season's situation, dont downplay it just yet :). Read the spoilers for allies and inferno...

prion
January 17th, 2006, 07:21 PM
It was a good episode. Not the best one though. This is the season 2 equivalent of "The Gift".

Yup. And Carl Binder writes good character pieces. He needs to do more episodes. This definitely was a dark episode but a good morality play.

Of course, now they're royally screwed with the wraith heading their way - again.

Cpn. Chris(tine) Bowman
January 17th, 2006, 07:25 PM
OMG! I loved this episode! I thought it was so interesting that they made Michael, who is after all a Wraith, the more sympathetic character. The whole "you think being a Wraith is a disease" thing was awsome. It's true after all, genocide is genocide and it's not because the Wraith are predators to humans that they are evil.
I thought it interesting also in that the Atlantians have put part of their humanity aside in order to survive. Will we seen an episode when they realize they may have gone too far? I'd like to see that from Elizabeth's eyes. In a way, she started out as the more 'human' character and it has been degrading with all the tough decisions she's had to make. Like she said, it starts and ends with her. I really loved this episode.

And Connor Trinneer is a nice adition to the Stargate universe :D Think we can get Michael and Ishta to meet? Think they'll look familiar to each other? ;)

Shipperahoy
January 17th, 2006, 07:29 PM
BTW, did anybody figure out what exactly Michael did to Teyla that made her release his restraints? Was it some kind of mind control and if so did it work only because of Teyla's Wraith DNA or would it work on anybody? I'm thinking it's the latter and if that's the case that could open up a whole 'nother can of worms somewhere down the line in regards to Teyla being a liability to Atlantis. I'm surprised that it wasn't addressed in the episode.

ToasterOnFire
January 17th, 2006, 07:30 PM
We all know, the stargate's shutdown is variable, depending on what the show needs, it just knows. :D
Or maybe the stargates are intelligent...

*Quick! That big guy with a sword is charging the gate! Shut it down right before he gets there so we can all have a good laugh!* :D


no it is not identical to the first season's situation, dont downplay it just yet :). Read the spoilers for allies and inferno...
It's sort of different, the wraith are still coming to kill everyone but this time they're bypassing Atlantis and heading directly for Earth. The wraith internal conflict may also add some twists too.


BTW, did anybody figure out what exactly Michael did to Teyla that made her release his restraints? Was it some kind of mind control and if so did it work only because of Teyla's Wraith DNA or would it work on anybody? I'm thinking it's the latter and if that's the case that could open up a whole 'nother can of worms somewhere down the line in regards to Teyla being a liability to Atlantis. I'm surprised that it wasn't addressed in the episode.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. It was shown in Rising that the wraith queens do have some sort of mind control, as the queen showed when she forced Sumner to kneel. I don't think Teyla's DNA was a factor, since it also works on MW humans. However, I thought that this power was exclusive to hive queens, and I don't think Michael used to be a hive queen (:D). I guess that means that the mind control power can also be used by your run of the mill male wraith?

rhade
January 17th, 2006, 08:26 PM
It was an interesting episode but overall the decisions made are bad. Who would want to bring a Wraith to Atlantis turn him human and let him stay in the city, when they know the risks of having him out there considering the drug is extremely experimental and that having him outside an isolated environment is a risk in case something goes wrong or he begins to regress. While the plot was interesting the logic baffles the mind in terms of not keeping him isolated along with the ethical implications of violating a prisioner of war in such a way. It was an interesting idea I just wish the setup to those inital decisions that lead up to the testing were made on more stable ground than it seemed after watching it.

Quinn Mallory
January 17th, 2006, 08:41 PM
Very interesting episode.

It does raise some moral issue about what the team is trying to do and how they are approaching it. Weir has definitely has some much darker moments in season 2 in this episode and Critical Mass (let's hope we see she has to resolve this with herself at some point in the near future).

Good to see Dr. Heitmeyer again.

I thought the Beckett sleeping part was too convenient as well as the obvious stargate shutting off just in time but oh well.

I like how it ended with Sheppards saying, "We're going to need more fire power." Can't wait again until next week.

Quinn Mallory
January 17th, 2006, 08:48 PM
My biggest and main problem with the setup of this episode is this: if the team purposefully went out to capture a wraith, wouldn't they have an even better plan of rehabbing the wraith into a human without exposing as much of Atlantis or anything like that as possible? I would have expected that much more precaution would have been taken.

Even if you do the treatment in Atlantis, shipped the guy out to an alpha site for rehabilitation (ok, I know the Atlantis alpha site is quite primitive and not really suitable for this but if this entire experiment was initiated by the Atlantis team, rather than just a coincidence of capturing a wraith, you would expect the team to be much better prepared).

Another thing, I kept on expecting the team to do something quite compassionate and human that may have a lasting effect on Michael but I never saw that. Teyla's speech may had supposed to serve this purpose but it fall flat, in my opinion, in stressing the main difference between human and wraiths...the obvious thing about human is not constraint by the constant desire to feed like the wraith.

The Kaibosh
January 17th, 2006, 08:56 PM
Kaibosh here,

Intense episode but seemed a bit under cooked in some places. This should have been a 2 parter in order for the writers to address some of the lingering issues that have cropped here. Some quick observations:

Conner Trinneer:

Very well done. Emotionally played the character in such a way that made you really think perhaps there's more to the Wraith than we have seen. In the one episode you really start to hope there is a good future for this guy. Unfortunately its this strength in the episode that really reveals a serious flaw....

Ethics:

All the while the events of the episode were unfolding I kept wondering "where's the debate?" Why are they all so willing to do this to this guy? I mean yeah as Sheppard said: "this is war" but if that were the case why were they trying to socialize Michael? Why the phony name and fake background to the point where they prepared quarters for him. It all seemed very inconsitant. On the one hand they wanted to give him a chance to turn him into a human but on the other hand they kept armed guards around him at all times. They didn't think he would find this stange and disconcerting? Again if Dr. Beckett needed to test the retro-virus why not just keep the Wraith captive and test the virus and tell him so? Why mess with Michael's head too if the retro-virus itself wasn't perfected? I know they all want to do the right thing: that is try to "normalize" Michael while developing a weapon against the Wraith. But it all seemed cruel especially when he kept insisting that he felt something was wrong. I know this is Stargate and not Star Trek and the prime directive doesn't apply but Weir is bound by the Geneva Conventions; especially as a diplomat. The apparent ease in which they all carried themselves seemed very much off key. There doesn't need to be a debate about whether or not Sheppard's "Kirking" is ruining the character: they all dropped a peg in my book.

Ronan:

This guy is an animal. Especially when Teyla is threatened. Pretty cool the way he grabbed Michael by the throat, lifted him off his feet and pinned him against the wall when he came upon Michael and Teyla sparring. Teyla/Ronan shippers should be pleased.

Nit-picks:

Why would they perform such an important experiment on a living Wraith on Atlantis when they know that Wraith can communicate telepathically? Especially when they are trying to keep Atlantis hidden? Why restrain Michael at the Alpha Site with only velcro straps when he has alreadly escaped once and has killed a guard? For that matter; knowing the stakes were as high as they were why weren't they better prepared to handle containment? I mean I get back to Sheppard saying this is war. Why not have a standing order to put a bullet in this guy's head if he started acting weird? I mean security did see him deliberately attempt to hide the laptop screen when he took Dr. Beckett's discs. They eventually all marched in there armed but what took so long?

Let me wrap up by saying that there are now some interesting developments on the horizon and I very much look forward to season 3.

Cheers.

rexpop
January 17th, 2006, 10:29 PM
All in all a good episode. Interesting story with a few flaws, could have done with more debate around the whole moral implications and a tad more character. A couple of things:

- There definitely needs to be a focus and some reckoning on the change in Weir's philosophy over the last two years. When she was introduced (Lost City), the character was against imposing humanities views on others. Over the last two years she's allowed experimentation on prisoners ('Poising The Well' and this episode), torture of a suspect ('Critical Mass') and allowing Shep to leave an entire civilization defenseless against the Wraith ('The Tower'). I can buy the change as being somewhat necessary given the circumstances, but I want to see her faced with what she has become.

- Nice to see Teyla given some screen time and some development. More please.

PG15
January 17th, 2006, 11:16 PM
Seems to me the only one who was thinking straight was Ronan. Who in the world actually thought bringing a wraith to Atlantis was a good idea? What's next? How about we bring a wraith through the gate to the SGC and inplant him with a Goa'uld and see if we can't all be friends. To me the biggest problem with this episode is that all the main characters with the exception of Ronan and maybe Teyla seemed to take leave of their senses. Wier and Beckett really seemed out of character in this episode. Now we are practically right back where we were this point in season one, the wraith are comming, again. Just seems a bit soon to revisit this particular plot line.

Suspicion?

Anyway, this episode is, bar-none, one of the best Atlantis has ever done. It was very dark and unsettling, and had great "shock!" moments.

Damn those spoilers! I think I would've known something was up, even without spoilers, but I doubt I would've known our poor little Mike was a Wraith.

Speaking of poor Mike, I really felt sorry for him in this episode even until the bitter end. Oh, and Trinneer does Wraith really really well.

The moral/ethics stuff, especially about being/not being human, reminded me a lot of Star Trek, coincidentally. That's a good thing IMHO.

Speaking of Star Trek, I love how they (conciously or not) put in references in it. For example, how Mike/Trip had bad dreams, or how they need medication to sleep, or how they're both from the south, etc.

The city in the mist was beautiful. I actually cheered when that happened.

Oh, and TRIP!!! I was a fan of Enterprise, so this episode was a joy for me, as you can plainly tell by now. :D.

Nice set up for the next 2 eps. Can't wait to see what happens!

5/5

dark_faith
January 17th, 2006, 11:27 PM
There definitely needs to be a focus and some reckoning on the change in Weir's philosophy over the last two years. When she was introduced (Lost City), the character was against imposing humanities views on others. Over the last two years she's allowed experimentation on prisoners ('Poising The Well' and this episode), torture of a suspect ('Critical Mass') and allowing Shep to leave an entire civilization defenseless against the Wraith ('The Tower'). I can buy the change as being somewhat necessary given the circumstances, but I want to see her faced with what she has become.

I think the problem here is they give a bit of Weir here, a bit there, just when they need a decision to be taken. We don't really see her dealing with any consequences, we don't see her evolve to the dark side.
In critical mass, she makes a decision but regrets.... In the long good bye, she's all happy and overwhelmed about what happened, that was OOC, Coup d'Etat she's ready to make a war. WHAT THE HELL ?
If characters evolve to the " dark side" show us HOW.
Right now I don't feel like Weir has changed, I feel like we're imposing me a new character, and I don't like her because there is no reason for such a drastic change.

DetriusXii
January 18th, 2006, 12:12 AM
I have a hard time believing they all thought the virus was a good idea. I find it pretty morally wrong that they figured he'd be better off now he was human.

What alternatives do humans have? It's either commit genocide against the Wraith or try to solve their biological feeding problem. There's nothing else. Micheal got to keep his existence, his personhood. The vessel that his personality resides in doesn't really matter.

DetriusXii
January 18th, 2006, 12:14 AM
I had great expectation for this ep and I wasn't too disappointed.

At first, I didn't care they were doing such experiments because he is a Wraith... but the more you learn about the whole thing, the more you realize he looks more human than Weir, Shep and co.
The Wraith are monsters because they feed on us... That how they eat! So what are we for killing animals? The wraiths look more human than ever.


False analogy. An animal isn't aware of his existence, doesn't reason, basically doesn't possess the attributes of a person. Humans do. If we're immoral for killing animal life for food, why stop at animal life? Why not go to plant life?

eccscape
January 18th, 2006, 12:16 AM
Who would want to bring a Wraith to Atlantis turn him human and let him stay in the city
I thought that too. Surely they would have started with him at the Alpha site. Shows they were a bit cicky about succeeding...and in that yet again confident that they were right in all their actions!! But i agree with what someone said earlier 'Where was caldwell when we needed him?'


I like how it ended with Sheppards saying, "We're going to need more fire power."
Reminds me of Jack in 'upgrades', "we're going to need more snacks" LOL

Did anyone else wonder why Ronon and Teyla hadn't been given (or at least offered) the ancient gene innoculation?

BoneCollector
January 18th, 2006, 12:19 AM
I hope no one pointed this out yet, but if so, then i'm sorry to repeat.

I've noticed a (not so) small mistake in the beginning of the movie... When Teyla was showing Michael his quarters, his laptop was closed. But in the next scene, when we saw his room through some monitor display (while observed by Shepard), the computer was on :(

I think this is quite a big one, and i can't understand how they could have missed it. Maybe they did it on purpose, but... is strange!

gambit
January 18th, 2006, 12:21 AM
False analogy. An animal isn't aware of his existence, doesn't reason, basically doesn't possess the attributes of a person. Humans do. If we're immoral for killing animal life for food, why stop at animal life? Why not go to plant life?

Animals are very much aware of their own existence. Instincts, the need to survive... etc.

xfkirsten
January 18th, 2006, 12:34 AM
False analogy. An animal isn't aware of his existence, doesn't reason, basically doesn't possess the attributes of a person. Humans do. If we're immoral for killing animal life for food, why stop at animal life? Why not go to plant life?

As someone who's worked around animals (everything from dogs to dolphins to wolves to fish) I beg to differ on that point. Can we show that they are aware? No, we can't. Does that mean that they aren't aware? Not at all! That's just fuzzy logic there. In fact, there's mounting evidence that at least some animals are self-aware (particularly in dolphins and the great apes).

That being said, I have no problem with killing animal life for food - that's just the way nature works. Humans are omnivores. Humans do eat meat. I love a good steak.

Easter Lily
January 18th, 2006, 12:45 AM
Now that is what I call storytelling...
I wouldn't say it was flawless but it was intriguing enough and at the heart of it was a moral dilemma... something that's been missing for the most part in this season... Yup, this is definitely the kind of gutsy writing that some of us have been clamouring for. I'd take this effort over the convenient use of Sheppard as the Pegasus galaxy's answer to Casanova anytime. At least with this episode and the previous one, I can see that the writers are trying to make something out of the people and the city.

The brilliant first part reminded me of Memento... not so much in content but in its gradual unfolding. Taking the point of view of Michael was effective in creating that feeling of mystery and ambiguity. Treneer does a terrific job as the confused man and draws us into the narrative with his honest-to-goodness naivete.

The second part... not as brilliant but still interesting in terms of Michael's transformation back. I wonder if Michael's brief brush with his humanness will have a long term impact. I was uncomfortable with the whole experiment but I think I was meant to be.

However, the question is... who is Michael... Is he a man or a Wraith? Can a leopard ever change its spots? Or is a leopard defined by its spots or by its appetite? The only thing that I question is how drastic a personality change Michael undergoes the first time round. So are the wraith mostly bug or mostly human? Is the human part fundamentally sound or is it just that the survival instincts of the bug take over the Wraith psyche competely?
I am surprised at how easily Michael adapted to his humanness considering that he's been mostly bug for so long. Here's me wishing to see more of him in the future.

Wyrminarrd
January 18th, 2006, 12:51 AM
I didn&#180;t have time to read through the entire thread so sorry if this has been discussed to death by now but am I the only one who feels that Teyla should now be kicked of the team? She has shown herself to have a major vulnarability to Wraith mind control and would IMO be a huge liability.

If the writers keep her on the team it should be because she lied about how Micheal escaped and covered her own rear end. I just can&#180;t believe that any military officer would allow such a glaring security hole in the alpha team.

As for the episode, it was good although it didn&#180;t take me long to figure out that this guy was a Wraith that had been retroed. There was the normal lack of proper security, I mean seriously has a security team ever in this series managed to keep control of the one they were guarding?

AutumnDream
January 18th, 2006, 02:13 AM
Hrm.

Blah...

This could have been done SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better.

It was a bit cheesy and very rushed. What happened to the Wraith being creepy and menacing? Being creepy isn't speaking in a stupid Goa'uld-like voice and yelling baseless threats. This should have been a two parter, and Micheal's arc of deterioration should have been written in a really disturbing, actually creepy way. Something that makes the viewer feel unsettled and uneasy when they watch. Something that really grips you and brings you into the show. Something that would have made me feel anything at all for the events of the episode. The episode just wasn't enthralling. There was really no attachment to the character of Micheal that made me feel sorry for him when he was whining about them lying to him. I don't care about time constraints. If a story is too big to do in 45 minutes, don't try to do it in 45 minutes. I hate that there's any cheesy cliche sci-fi stuff in one of the shows I normally consider to be elevated above "normal" sci-fi. The whole thing just lacked grace.

Feels like we're being taken on a rollercoaster ride of quality, depending on who wrote the episode. I wish I could place the same faith and blind adoration into the show like I used to, but stuff like this is making it harder for me to be drooling over the thought of a new episode, as was the case in Season 1.

James_the_Wraith_Sympathiser
January 18th, 2006, 03:08 AM
Yep there really was a good presentation of the moral issue here...lots of interesting dialogue which I enjoyed...and there were 2 Aussie expedition members seen in the background :D Sets it up well for the season finale.

ItsColdOutside
January 18th, 2006, 04:33 AM
I do think this is one of the better episodes this season for either SG show, but it could have been so much more. CT (don't want to mess up the spelling) did a very good job, convincing me that his character's problem in Enterprise was mostly in the writing, he seems to be a pretty solid actor. Furthermore, there was good continuity with this retro-virus thing (though I think all sf shows should be less stupid about Fun With DNA), and I like the premise of the episode.

The beginning was very well done, until about 15 minutes in when I was basically 100% sure he was a wraith (I am very very anti-spoiler, so I didn't know). After that, it kind of went of the rails slowly, culminating in the whole incompetent-military/Atlantis-danger/Teyla-vulnerable thing. Though of course the run-of-the-mill military people are just there to provide weak points for people to escape through, so it's nothing new.

Ronan really bugs me. This isn't unique to this episode, but it was really on display here. He's basically just [insert hot-headed warrior-type] + [in love with Shep] + [occasional savvy], and the savvy only comes out for military stuff, generally. They never give him any patience, or ability to make logical arguments or empathize. These would be great traits for him to be acquiring in his time on Atlantis, and it would be great if the other characters ever noticed that his bad temper and lack of thinking-before-doing are systematic problems, rather than just the one individually-maybe-forgivable incident that is in nearly every scene he gets.

No one bothered talking to Michael much, at least not calmly and rationally, once he knew he was a wraith (ar at least, we didn't get to see it), and he never mentioned that he killed in self-defense, basically killing all the moral issues there.

Now, I like Star Trek and all the humanistic stuff that goes in there, and I thought that Weir would bring a little of that to Atlantis. Previously, she has been a counterweight to the military thinking on the show, but in this episode that didn't happen at all. Unfortunate.

I did like seeing more Teyla (good actress, very up and down writing on Atlantis) and less of the mainstays here, and McKay's scene was spot-on, as always. I'm getting sick of all the running-around Atlantis chases, perhaps just a function of the limited sets they have to work with. In an episode with some obvious moral implications, the writers gave us another throwaway action sequence rather than letting us see the characters deal with the issue more (which, from the calls for a double episode, I'm not the only one who wouldn've enjoyed).

Anyway, lots of little critiques, mostly not new, I guess, but it was well-produced (makes the action scenes much more bearable), had some good stuff with Michael, and some good work from several of the other regulars. However, there were character inconsistencies, and very questionable actions that weren't questioned, that also disappointed me. Oh well.

SnoggingPicard
January 18th, 2006, 04:37 AM
I didn´t have time to read through the entire thread so sorry if this has been discussed to death by now but am I the only one who feels that Teyla should now be kicked of the team? She has shown herself to have a major vulnarability to Wraith mind control and would IMO be a huge liability.

If the writers keep her on the team it should be because she lied about how Micheal escaped and covered her own rear end. I just can´t believe that any military officer would allow such a glaring security hole in the alpha team.

This issue has come up several times over the past two seasons, though Bates was the strongest proponent of getting rid of Teyla. I wouldn't be surprised if this DOES come up again in the future given what has happened especially with the spoiler that Woolsey may be seen in the third season in some capacity. He is usually brought in to expose and questions decisions just like this, and the wisdom/authority of Sheppard and Weir to keep her on the main team could well be brought into question.

prion
January 18th, 2006, 04:57 AM
Ethics:

All the while the events of the episode were unfolding I kept wondering "where's the debate?" Why are they all so willing to do this to this guy? I mean yeah as Sheppard said: "this is war" but if that were the case why were they trying to socialize Michael? Why the phony name and fake background to the point where they prepared quarters for him. It all seemed very inconsitant. On the one hand they wanted to give him a chance to turn him into a human but on the other hand they kept armed guards around him at all times. They didn't think he would find this stange and disconcerting? Again if Dr. Beckett needed to test the retro-virus why not just keep the Wraith captive and test the virus and tell him so? Why mess with Michael's head too if the retro-virus itself wasn't perfected? I know they all want to do the right thing: that is try to "normalize" Michael while developing a weapon against the Wraith. But it all seemed cruel especially when he kept insisting that he felt something was wrong. I know this is Stargate and not Star Trek and the prime directive doesn't apply but Weir is bound by the Geneva Conventions; especially as a diplomat. The apparent ease in which they all carried themselves seemed very much off key. There doesn't need to be a debate about whether or not Sheppard's "Kirking" is ruining the character: they all dropped a peg in my book.

This episode has a lot of ethical questions attached to it, because even if they managed to convert Michael completely to human, I seriously doubt any human would ever trust him. He'd still be a wraith in their eyes, especially since he's got to take a shot every day. I hate to say it, but this experiment (and Michael) were doomed from the start. Sorta like raising a calf to a steer knowing it's going ot the slaughterhouse. The military side (Shep) had no problem in doing this; he also didn't have any problem with using Steve for experiments either. basically, dehumanizing the enemy makes it easier to kill them (hence all the insulting terms used throughout wars; you're not killing a German citizen in the Army (WWII), you were killing a Kraut, etc.). And if michael was doomed to be 'put down' at the end, who would authorize that? Sure as heck couldn't see Carson doing it, but Ronon would gladly volunteer to bump the guy off.

I hope some good fanfic comes out of this covering all the ethical dilemmas they find themselves mired in.

Ronan:
This guy is an animal. Especially when Teyla is threatened. Pretty cool the way he grabbed Michael by the throat, lifted him off his feet and pinned him against the wall when he came upon Michael and Teyla sparring. Teyla/Ronan shippers should be pleased.

I'm basically glad they didn't make him sympathetic in any respect. It wouldn't have made sense. the man HATES wraith and always will. And he was the smartest of the bunch. "Bad idea," he said. He was soooo right. Ah, I really felt sorry for Michael at that point when Ronon pinned him to the wall.

Nit-picks:
Why would they perform such an important experiment on a living Wraith on Atlantis when they know that Wraith can communicate telepathically? Especially when they are trying to keep Atlantis hidden? Why restrain Michael at the Alpha Site with only velcro straps when he has alreadly escaped once and has killed a guard? For that matter; knowing the stakes were as high as they were why weren't they better prepared to handle containment? I mean I get back to Sheppard saying this is war. Why not have a standing order to put a bullet in this guy's head if he started acting weird? I mean security did see him deliberately attempt to hide the laptop screen when he took Dr. Beckett's discs. They eventually all marched in there armed but what took so long?

Ouch, yes, Plotholes. Stargate seems to excel in them these days. However, would the drug have dimmed the telepathic abilities? and if so, how would they know? As for Velcro straps, I understand they're pretty good. But they should have had a GUARD with a GUN standing there, but then.... we needed him to escape (plotwise).

I want to know what Michael was doing with a laptop in the first place? Unless it was just a player, no access to anything vital. Like a DVD player.

I can see Jack O'Neill's hair turning white back on earth when he gets the report from Weir: Oh by the way, we were successful in experimenting on that wraith, but he got away and now we're all doomed...

Tok'Ra Hostess
January 18th, 2006, 05:29 AM
Oh. Wow!

Now that was a good ep. Well written and well executed. Even the inevitable prisoner-beats-up-guards-and-escapes scene was believably done, for once.

All the characters were compelling and CT did a fantastic job as Michael.

I faithfully steer clear of spoilers and could have done without knowing that Michael was a Wraith, but that huge, HONKIN spoiler was part of the episode banner on GW. The dramatic beginning would have been even better if the truth could have dawned on me, bit by bit. :mad:

SG Atlantis used science in a bid to improve their situation and were quickly confronted with the morality of their decisions, making Michael a wonderful example of true Science Fiction, IMO.

We don't get enough of that. In my book, Michael rates right up there with Poisoning the Well, Rising, BIS and Storm/Eye.

I give it an enthusiastic 10/10. :)

Wyrminarrd
January 18th, 2006, 05:36 AM
I personally don´t see any ethical question in whether or not they had the right to change Michael. The only other known way to deal with a Wraith is to kill it and it simply comes down to that, which is better? Seeing as how dead is dead I´d have to say that at least with the retro virus the ex-wraith would have a chance at life.

As for whether or not to tell him about it... I´d personally have claimed that I didn´t know him and that he was a stranger I´d rescued from a dangerous situation. That way there are no extra lies needed or increased possibilities of people screwing up the cover story. If that didn´t work I´d wipe his mind again and try another tactic.

Caylynn
January 18th, 2006, 05:52 AM
I quite enjoyed this episode. I hadn't read any spoilers, so I was really wondering what was going on at the beginning - very creepy.

It was also great to see Connor Trinneer back in action. :) I enjoyed Enterprise, and it was great to see "Tripp" back on the screen, even if he was playing a wraith. ;)

I'm a little disturbed at how easily he got away though - why didn't they have more security in place?

Very creepy that the wraith probably know all about Atlantis now, though.

Willow'sCat
January 18th, 2006, 05:59 AM
That being said, I have no problem with killing animal life for food - that's just the way nature works. Humans are omnivores. Humans do eat meat. I love a good steak.Not all humans eat meat thank you. :cool: I did give you green for the other stuff you posted.;)

I didn't mind this episode, and Connor was fantastic he did a wonderful job and yes I am a fan. :D In fact he became the only reason I watched all of STE. :P

Teyla! Yea, I am definitely a Telya fan now Rachel was a pleasure to watch in this and she and Connor have great chemistry, I hope one day Connor can reappear in this role. Everyone has pretty much covered the ethical and moral dilemmas so I won't rehash.

I will say yea! One of the Australians got to be in a scene with Rodney *even if she was in the background* :D

GateLadyM
January 18th, 2006, 06:29 AM
Fairly decent episode, but too much like an old StarTrek-TNG show dealing with capturing a Borg, giving him a name (Hugh) and trying to return him to humanity. Then the question - do we keep him? Return him to the Borg in an attempt to "corrupt" them? Kill him? In the end, Hugh went back to the Borg. This episode wasn't as original as some people may think.

Teyla was good, and Ronon definitely showed he is possessive of her. Of all the romantic triangles TPTB have shoved at us in SGA, I find the Ronon/Teyla pairing to be the most interesting.

Connor did a very good job as Michael. Glad to hear he will be returning.

ShadowMaat
January 18th, 2006, 07:17 AM
Once again we have an ep with a great concept, but a so-so execution.

Everyone accepts the idea that it's okay to turn a wraith into a human and turn him loose in the city? Um... No. Granted, it made for a good "moral ambiguity issue" with the wraith calling the humans on what they were doing, but I think this should have been the central issue and that it should have been exploread a lot more.

Also, as has been said, bringing a wraith back to Atlantis- whatever you plan to do with him- is borderline suicidal.

Even if I accept that all of the character are morally corrupt enough to attempt this experiment with no qualms and even if I accept that they'd do this in Atlantis, why in HELL would they transfer him from an ultra-high security, inpenetrable cell to a backwater planet with no defensive measures at all? Talk about jaw-droppingly asinine plot devices! And I don't buy the "he could find out too much" BS. He ALREADY knows too much and leaving him in Atlantis isn't going to make him any MORE dangerous. Hell, they've had wraith prisoners before and didn't seem overly concerned about the "security risk".

What, exactly, were they hoping to accomplish by trying to pretend he was a human member of the expedition? He's a WRAITH. He has absolutely no memory, knowledge, or ability to put ANYTHING human into context.

The wraith aren't like the borg. They were NEVER human. Michael isn't going to spontaneously generate memories of a life he never had and can't begin to fully understand and I think it was incredibly stupid of the entire Atlantis crew to think that this ruse might work. They would have been better off telling him the truth and playing up the "wraith-ness is a virus" routine and trying to convince him that he's been "cured".

Like others, I really REALLY wish I hadn't been spoiled on this ep because it not only ruined the beginning of the ep, it made me confused. I spent the first couple of scenes trying to figure out what everyone was doing and saying to myself, "But... isn't he a WRAITH?"

This could have been a great opportunity to give us some more insight into the wraith culture/mindset. I would have loved for Michael to start remembering more of his former life- what he's done, any friends he might have had (or blood brothers or whatever). I think a homesick Wraith would have endeared him just a bit more (though he was already a sympathetic charcter) and shown us how cold the people in Atlantis can be that they had absolutely no concern or interest in the "man" he was or the "life" he had. They could have shown us how he missed that or, maybe, how he was now slightly appalled by some of the things he'd done...

One silly, minor thing that bugged me is that they had Michael be from Texas (complete with the cliched cowboy hat) and yet he had no trace of a Southern accent. Granted, HE might not know the difference, and I suppose not all Texans have strong accents, but still... why bother with that detail? Was Trip from Texas? Or was it playing back to Lt. Tyler from SG-1's Fifth Man?

Whatever. Frankly, I'm glad he didn't have the accent because the few times I saw Enterprise, I LOATHED Trip's accent. Conner's voice sounds much nicer without the mouth full of marbles. ;) And with that in mind...

One thing I really loved about this ep was Conner's performance. He really brought Michael to life and made him an engaging and sympathetic character. I can't say I've paid too much attention to wraith movements before, but I wonder if he maybe got some coaching from James Lafazanos about how wraith should move.

The half-wraith makeup job was also a nice touch. A little too shiny in places for my tastes, but nicely done. And I think it says a lot about how much Michael has changed (beyond the physical) that he didn't immediately kill Teyla (he even released her) and that he hesitated before trying to feed.

I'm sure we'll be seeing more of Mikey in upcoming eps. This is gonna come back to bite us in the ass BIG time and I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

I just wish we could have been spared the kitschy "we're gonna need more firepower" crap at the end. Yeesh. I hope we aren't being set up for a repeat of the first season finale, because that's sure as hell how it sounded.

Siege was good ONCE, guys. Now drop it and find some NEW drama for us to angst over.

Wyrminarrd
January 18th, 2006, 07:35 AM
It does sound like they are heading towards the same thing this season. Perhaps there will be some great spin on things like them finding a pair of ZPM´s and flying Atlantis into combat against he Hive ships.

Either that or launching an attack against he hive ships before they ever enter the Atlantis system. A forward defense like that might be very cool.

ShadowMaat
January 18th, 2006, 07:37 AM
I don't want a spin. I am SICK of spin. I want an ORIGINAL FRACKING IDEA. I don't need more leftovers.

Wyrminarrd
January 18th, 2006, 07:42 AM
Thats the problem with Atlantis, it´s a one trick pony. There are the wraith and then there are the Wraith. At least with the Goa´uld they had very different personalities and MO´s so even if SG-1 was always dealing with them it seemed a lot more diverse.

Atlantis needs to run into more baddies or at least make the wraith be more diverse. Until then you´d better get ready for the same thing time and again.

Besides, I don´t hear you come up with other possibilities ;)

Domesticated Equine
January 18th, 2006, 07:45 AM
There were some good moments in this episode but as a whole it didn't do too much for me. I'm left astounded by the sheer inanity of the Atlantis expedition, it seems to me they're doing everything in their power to get Atlantis destroyed. Couldn't they have just called the wraith and said "We're alive, come get us!"?

ShadowMaat
January 18th, 2006, 07:46 AM
Besides, I don´t hear you come up with other possibilities ;)
Actually, I have. But this isn't the thread to discuss such things.

aaobuttons
January 18th, 2006, 09:20 AM
And I think it says a lot about how much Michael has changed (beyond the physical) that he didn't immediately kill Teyla (he even released her) and that he hesitated before trying to feed.



I thought as a whole the episode was quite good. I try to overlook plot conviences when possible because this is just a TV show (and seriously, how many times can a city be in danger or a main character be in danger and in real life statistically survive?).
My character critiques: Weir's dark turn I didn't really buy, Carson's I did. Why one and not the other... I don't know. I thought Ronan was over the top with his whole grabbing of the neck and throwing against the wall thing. Shep I felt was too lax for not arguing the point more (I did like the whole "you need a name, let's call you Mike" part). Hightmeyer is getting annoying, she needs more than one dimension if she's going to be a reacurring character. I want to like her, she's just nothing but a cut out copy of a shrink.

Teyla got to shine in this episode. She was the only one who seemed to think of Michael as a real person, not just an experiment. She knew to be careful but didn't judge him. If anything is going to leave a lasting impression on Wraith!Michael it's going to be her and her kindness towards him. What sort of impression that will be could be interesting. I think although he felt betrayed by everyone, he felt it most sharply with Teyla. She had supposedly been his friend, and when he had nothing else to remember, he had felt a connection with her and had held on to that.

Michael raises more questions about the wraith than answers and I'm left definetly wanting more! How much of Michael was the drug and how much was his innate character? We've only seen the Wraith interacting with humans and usually in hostile situations. How do they act around eachother, with their friends (if they have any) with their families (again if they have any)? Michael while on Atlantis (pre realization) was friendly, curious, apologetic; he was never menacing, cruel, or cold. After he found out he was a wraith he still didn't act like we would think a wraith would. He didn't want to fight anyone or kill that soldier, he just wanted to escape. The fact that he repeatedly tried to get the soldier to put his weapon down makes me wonder even more. With Teyla too at the end we see confusing elements; he's Wraith!Michael by now, but he lets Teyla out of her restraints, he has more than enough opportunities to feed on her while she's knocked out but he doesn't. He could have easily taken her down to the ship or fed upon her but he doesn't... is it because he still has some of that other Michael left in him with the drug, or because he doesn't want to hurt her, because he sees her differently. I loved that battle inside him with that "Instinct" coming into play again just like with Ellia. Would he have fed on her in the end, he went after her, but would he have stopped, would the instinct have been too much? Too bad we didn't have the chance to find out, but hopefully we'll see some indication next time we see Michael.

Callie
January 18th, 2006, 11:58 AM
I couldn’t read everything written on Carson’s calendar, but one of the days says “Dinner with Cadman”. He really has to stop calling his girlfriend by her surname! You can’t even argue that she prefers it, because Rodney called her Laura all through Duet and she never asked him not to.

Nice continuity with Teyla mentioning how much Rodney likes MREs.

When we see the close-up of the piece of slate that Teyla was drawing on, it’s hard to tell what’s drawing and what’s scuff marks that were already on it, but it looks like there are a lot more than six symbols on it. However, she did do a good job – Pegasus symbols are a lot more complicated than Milky Way ones and I know I’d find it hard to draw any of them, especially behind my back!

PG15
January 18th, 2006, 02:27 PM
I don't care about time constraints. If a story is too big to do in 45 minutes, don't try to do it in 45 minutes.

But what if it's too small for a 2 parter, or even a 90 minute episode? Do you really want the episode to be filled with 50% fluff?


I don't want a spin. I am SICK of spin. I want an ORIGINAL FRACKING IDEA. I don't need more leftovers.

There's no such thing as an original idea, not anymore.

ShadowMaat
January 18th, 2006, 02:51 PM
There's no such thing as an original idea, not anymore.
Oh, spare me. :rolleyes:

Anyway, back on topic, I do think Teyla did a good job in this ep. A bit predictible that SHE is the one to show any empathy, but at least it gave her something to do for a change. ;)

dark_faith
January 18th, 2006, 02:53 PM
But what if it's too small for a 2 parter, or even a 90 minute episode? Do you really want the episode to be filled with 50% fluff?



There's no such thing as an original idea, not anymore.

well if we could focus a bit more on the city itself, on the ancients, on the characters... it could be original...

xfkirsten
January 18th, 2006, 02:53 PM
Not all humans eat meat thank you. :cool: I did give you green for the other stuff you posted.;)

This is true. How about "humans evolved to eat meat"? :D

Arlessiar
January 18th, 2006, 02:54 PM
I couldn’t read everything written on Carson’s calendar, but one of the days says “Dinner with Cadman”. He really has to stop calling his girlfriend by her surname! Maybe they aren't a couple yet. In "Duet", since Carson knows that Laura likes him, we saw him squeeze her hand. And then there was a date mentioned (I forgot in which episode) and later we saw the two of them walking through a corridor in "Critical Mass". Just walking and laughing, nothing else, not even holding hands. And now another date is mentioned. But no-one said that they are together yet. Maybe they are, and Carson just doesn't want to write "Date with my sweetheart Laura" into a calendar everyone can see. Or maybe he and Laura are just taking their relationship slow. :)
Personally I don't like the character of Cadman very much, but I like continuity, so I think that it's a funny that something like this is written on the calendar.

Did I see that right, is the date on the calendar July 2005? That would be the same time they made this episode then, I think.

Bye, A.

PG15
January 18th, 2006, 03:09 PM
Oh, spare me. :rolleyes:



I will not.

Really, when's the last time you saw anything that's original in anything?

hapklaar
January 18th, 2006, 03:25 PM
I must say this is the most stupid episode of Atlantis I ever saw. A few things which make it that way IMO:

- Michael has a texan accent from the beginning, what Wraith would have that to begin with. If it would come from humans, texan accent must be genetic .... right...

- The Atlantis crew thinking if they remove Wraith DNA they will get a sound human. Since when did upbringing and culture cease to be the most important factor in being human??

- Leaving such a dangerous person so many opportunities to do harm or escape. And with so much knowledge of Atlantis.... Weir should be relieved of duty immediately for such a lack of responsibility. Especially after all other naive decisions she made. Survival of whole Earth is at stake here, for Pete's sake! :tealc:

I really love the series, but this is not worthy of being an episode of Atlantis. I hope I will forget this one soon and will enjoy the following episodes the more.

Of course all in my opinion...

ShadowMaat
January 18th, 2006, 03:30 PM
Really, when's the last time you saw anything that's original in anything?
I've seen quite a lot, actually. It may not be a LITERAL interpretation of "original", but it's different enough to not be the same as everything else. Whereas most of the plots/ideas for Atlantis not only aren't that original, they're generally regurgitations of things from SG-1 or, worse, Atlantis itself.

And yeah, some of those regurgitated elements weren't "original" to Stargate, but each successive copy degrades in quality with very few twists to try and make it different.

We're at the same point now in Atlantis that we were almost a year ago: The Wraith know we're here and they're coming for us. It's only a matter of time and now the Eathers have to scramble to think up a plan to save themselves- and the home galaxy- from destruction. :rolleyes:

And "there are no original ideas anymore" is a moronic excuse for NOT trying to be creative. "Oh, it doesn't matter if we've already done this a few times because, you know, there are no original ideas left." :rolleyes: Gimme a break.

There's a difference between not being completely original and not even TRYING to be different. And if you really have any interest in the subject, I suggest starting a thread about it and inviting all opinions, but meanwhile, this is a discussion thread for Michael.

re: Carson and "Cadman". It's a bit odd and Carson certainly seems the type who would call his girlfriend by her first name, but as said... maybe they aren't quite at that level yet. And maybe she intimidates him just the slightest bit. ;) Either because she's a soldier, or because she's a girl or just because she's Cadman. ;)

AutumnDream
January 18th, 2006, 03:34 PM
I will not.

Really, when's the last time you saw anything that's original in anything?

People who are inventive enough can do it. I hear original and beautiful music all the time, and I read original and compelling stories all the time. It's simply harder now to come up with something new. A single concept is no longer enough to impress. You have to really think and develop the idea. Unfortunately, thinking doesn't seem to be the strong suit of certain Stargate writers. Then again, Carl Binder seems to write in a awesome-lame alternating cycle.Even putting execution aside, the episode was a mess just considering all the little holes and and stupidities.

I can't wait until Ouroborus posts. XD

PG15
January 18th, 2006, 03:34 PM
Calm down. ;)

All we know is that the Wraith has info that Atlantis is still there, after that, it's all the interpretation of the Atlantis team.

We'll see what happens, but I doubt it'll be Siege redux.

Callie
January 18th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Draft transcript is up:

http://www.brundle.free-online.co.uk/218_Michael.html

Toaster Roaster
January 18th, 2006, 04:32 PM
Screen Caps of Carson's Scotland Calender. These are high resolutions and I find it impossible to read them. Why do people say it says he and cadman are going on a date?


http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6857/stargate13ed.jpg

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6594/stargate20xs.jpg


P.S. If this is against TOS I am sorry I will remove them...

starfox
January 18th, 2006, 05:15 PM
Look at the second picture, second row, second column.

Toaster Roaster
January 18th, 2006, 05:21 PM
Look at the second picture, second row, second column.

I see some obvious writing but I can't even half way make it out. Are you claiming to be able to read it? I have pretty good vision...

Toaster Roaster
January 18th, 2006, 05:28 PM
Spoiler Pictures...

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8799/stargate31or.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2714/stargate42bs.jpg

KRiZ
January 18th, 2006, 05:29 PM
Its decipherable barely...

As for the whole originality thing, its almost impossible for them to manage it, especially with regards to the way some people on here view eps...

No matter what TPTB do for either series at the moment it seems that people can't wait to find something about it that has been done before so they can rip into it...

If anyone of you actually has come up with truly original ideas, try sending them in? Or if you're that original try pitching to a TV network...

Don't mean to have a go, but relentlessy having a go because, that part of ep. x was just like this ep of voyager in season 4, blah blah is a bit pathetic without actually making your own positive contribution.

Tok'Ra Hostess
January 18th, 2006, 05:33 PM
Unfortunately, thinking doesn't seem to be the strong suit of certain Stargate writers.

...But doesn't the entire writing staff get to see the scripts and give notes on them? And don't the head writers -Cooper&Wright - get to decide what flies and what dies?

Remember, armchair quarterbacks (of which I, too, am one:o ) always have the best, most original game plans - once they've seen how the game played out, of course. ;)

Just curious: what part(s) in particular did you(generic) find unoriginal and why?

jburrows
January 18th, 2006, 05:35 PM
Well I think it was an ok episode. However security is lacking especially after he found he was a wraith. Personaly I would have implanted if possible something inside him like a bomb or poisen that could kill him remotely. When on alpha site after he got there I would recremend disabling the dhd. spoilers for season 9 of sg1 after John and teyla, ronin retreated to the stargate after wraith attacked him why did they not send a mark 9 nuke that planet as soon as they got to the stargate. it could have pontential killed any wraith nearby as any wraiths ships to prevent anyone knowing atlantis survived.

Quinn Mallory
January 18th, 2006, 05:37 PM
Thats the problem with Atlantis, it´s a one trick pony. There are the wraith and then there are the Wraith. At least with the Goa´uld they had very different personalities and MO´s so even if SG-1 was always dealing with them it seemed a lot more diverse.


Wait, we (humans) still haven't really defeated the Wraiths yet. I'm definitely fine with Atlantis being attacked by the wraiths yet again. I'm sure after this next attack, a different enemy may be introduced soon (the ones that came up with the virus in "Hot Zone").

Quinn Mallory
January 18th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Well I think it was an ok episode. However security is lacking especially after he found he was a wraith. Personaly I would have implanted if possible something inside him like a bomb or poisen that could kill him remotely. When on alpha site after he got there I would recremend disabling the dhd. spoilers for season 9 of sg1 after John and teyla, ronin retreated to the stargate after wraith attacked him why did they not send a mark 9 nuke that planet as soon as they got to the stargate. it could have pontential killed any wraith nearby as any wraiths ships to prevent anyone knowing atlantis survived.

The mark 9 nuke from S9 of SG1 "Beachhead" is still experimenetal. I don't think they had another one ready just yet to give to the Atlantis team. Although that would be something the Atlantis team should have to have the ability to destroy the only stargate to Earth .

Quinn Mallory
January 18th, 2006, 05:45 PM
I didn´t have time to read through the entire thread so sorry if this has been discussed to death by now but am I the only one who feels that Teyla should now be kicked of the team? She has shown herself to have a major vulnarability to Wraith mind control and would IMO be a huge liability.

If the writers keep her on the team it should be because she lied about how Micheal escaped and covered her own rear end. I just can´t believe that any military officer would allow such a glaring security hole in the alpha team.


Where is Sergeat Bates when you need him. ;)

SierraGulf1
January 18th, 2006, 05:50 PM
While Carl Binder is excellent at writing characters, there were a few holes plotwise.

Many claim a few characters, namely Weir, were out of character. I got the vibe that her constant ignoring and drawing attention to what they were doing a way to make herself feel right about it.

Beckett clearly had regrets judging from his expressions as well.

We might see more regret from Weir in Allies, as well. It's all interpretation at the moment, though. Teyla, Ronan, and Michael were great, though, hands down.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
January 18th, 2006, 08:16 PM
It was an okay episode. I give it a ** 1/2 (Darren will probably give it a ***, when he sees it in March).

I like Michael's face when he got shot by Shep with the Wraith Hand Stunner.

And i finally got sounds for Ronan's gun (which I will share with you now, all three sound bytes):
Ronan's Gun (http://rapidshare.de/files/11330674/Ronan_s_Gun.zip.html)

Ouroboros
January 18th, 2006, 10:14 PM
This was kind of a middle of the road ep for me, not terrible like the hive or the tower but not great like last week's coup either.

Most of my disatisfaction comes from the fact that I felt they left so much on the table here.

They started into Mike arguing "well what's so bad about being a Wraith" and Teyla responds with "they're evil because they eat us" and he just accepts that. I didn't even buy it because, well duh yeah the thing you eat's not going to like you very much. You go poll the Zebras and you're not going to find a lot of Lion fans. This isn't really hard stuff to write either so I get the sense that it's probably not getting included not so much because they don't know how to or can't write it, but because they don't think we'll be interested or think we're too dumb to understand it. That worries me that they might be intentionally holding back the show like that on purpose.

It's pretty obvious that our guys were the badguys here. Even the episode's attempts to bend the viewpoint to a human sympathetic one didn't really cover the fact adequately this time.

Just what do they hope to gain from this ridiculous turn all the Wraith into humans nonsense anyway? Doing that's only going to make them stronger because they won't have to feed on people anymore, their one greatest weakness. They're not all suddenly going to forget thousands of years of cultural indoctrination and be friends just because you mutated them all against their will into inferior beings. They're not going to lose their ships or weapons either. Pulling that on the Wraith species as a whole is like daring them to genocide a now useless to them humanity in retaliation.

I mean if the Cows somehow figured out a way to turn us all into Cows would you suddenly become their bestest buddy or would you be really really pissed of that they turned you into a cow and want payback?

Ksenia
January 18th, 2006, 11:03 PM
I enjoyed it! I thought Connor Trinneer did a fantastic job, considering that the episode revolved more around around him than the regulars, so it had to have a strong guest star.

And I loved the different angle on things, showing our regulars as bad guys. Very well written.

Willow'sCat
January 18th, 2006, 11:51 PM
This is true. How about "humans evolved to eat meat"? :DHang on, are you implying I have not evolved? :eek: :P

xfkirsten
January 19th, 2006, 12:14 AM
Hang on, are you implying I have not evolved? :eek: :P

Yes! You magically appeared out of nowhere! A scientific mystery! :p

Callie
January 19th, 2006, 12:55 AM
I see some obvious writing but I can't even half way make it out. Are you claiming to be able to read it? I have pretty good vision...

No "claim" about it. With a 17" screen and a 350mb *cough*download*cough*, I (who also have pretty good vision) could tell what it said fairly easily. I couldn't, however, read what was written on the other dates.

DetriusXii
January 19th, 2006, 07:37 AM
This was kind of a middle of the road ep for me, not terrible like the hive or the tower but not great like last week's coup either.

Most of my disatisfaction comes from the fact that I felt they left so much on the table here.

They started into Mike arguing "well what's so bad about being a Wraith" and Teyla responds with "they're evil because they eat us" and he just accepts that. I didn't even buy it because, well duh yeah the thing you eat's not going to like you very much. You go poll the Zebras and you're not going to find a lot of Lion fans. This isn't really hard stuff to write either so I get the sense that it's probably not getting included not so much because they don't know how to or can't write it, but because they don't think we'll be interested or think we're too dumb to understand it. That worries me that they might be intentionally holding back the show like that on purpose.

It's pretty obvious that our guys were the badguys here. Even the episode's attempts to bend the viewpoint to a human sympathetic one didn't really cover the fact adequately this time.

Why does everyone keep positioning the idea that what Atlantis did was somehow wrong? There's several other posts explaining that the Wraith can either be cured of their need for humans or killed. And when the Wraith depend upon other people as food, their act on feeding on another person is wrong. The Wraith don't have a reasonable existence. Their entire existence is immoral because they kill other people for food. The only ethical choice that the Wraith have in their current form is to starve or commit suicide.

Earth animals aren't people. The only earthlings that are presently people are humans. If zebras & lions suddenly became people then lions would have to find an alternative to zebras as their food source.


Just what do they hope to gain from this ridiculous turn all the Wraith into humans nonsense anyway? Doing that's only going to make them stronger because they won't have to feed on people anymore, their one greatest weakness. They're not all suddenly going to forget thousands of years of cultural indoctrination and be friends just because you mutated them all against their will into inferior beings. They're not going to lose their ships or weapons either. Pulling that on the Wraith species as a whole is like daring them to genocide a now useless to them humanity in retaliation.

I mean if the Cows somehow figured out a way to turn us all into Cows would you suddenly become their bestest buddy or would you be really really pissed of that they turned you into a cow and want payback?

You're using a false analogy. There's a human survival need for the Wraith to be turned into humans. The Wraith personality gets to exist in a slightly modified vessel. If cows suddenly became people, what need would they have to change humans into cows? And if cows can change humans into cows, why not change cows into humans? They'd have more advantages in human form anyways. If every person in the Stargate universe became a human/Asgard/Go'uld/Unas/Serakin/Nox..... they'd still be able to continue on with their existence. If every person in the universe became a Wraith, they wouldn't be able to survive. That's why I stated previously that Wraith existence is unreasonable. What does it matter if the biological container is slightly modified (I say slightly because the Wraith are just genetically modified humans) back into its original human form.

ShadowMaat
January 19th, 2006, 09:41 AM
How's this for an analogy, Det:

Aliens abduct you. They find some trace of Neanderthal gene in you and alter your make-up so that you're a full-blown 'Thal with only vague memories of your life as a Homo Sapien. The aliens claim that these memories are false, residuals from your time in the captivity of the Sap-heads.

Sapiens are, they say, a wholly evil race. Saps commit horrible atrocities- they rape each other, murder each other, kill animals for no good reason, destroy habitats, poison the land, sea, and air, mutilate the natural order of things, and are generally hateful and irredeemably violent.

They lie and tell you that you've always been a 'Thal, that you have a family back home that loves you and that you're part of an important exploratory mission that is also trying to save the universe from utter destruction at the hands of the Saps. But you can't help feeling strange, violent compulsions and having memories of another life... as a Sap.

Then you find out that you have, in fact, always been a Sapien and that you've been lied to by your captors (not rescuers). They attempt to explain off what they've done (taking you away fromyour home, family, environment and the only life you've ever known) by saying that you're better off as a Neanderthal, that they've "cured" you of your Sapien-ness and isn't being a 'Thal so much better than the vicious ways of the Sapiens, anyway?

Bit of a weird comparison, maybe, but the point is that just because the Wraith way of life isn't like OUR way of life doesn't necessarily mean that their lifestyle isn't "good" for them.

It remains to be seen exactly what that lifestyle is, how it works for them and whether or not they'd be better off as humans.

There are a couple of threads around discussing whether or not the Wraith are evil. Might be worth dragging one up again for deeper discussion.

DetriusXii
January 19th, 2006, 12:04 PM
How's this for an analogy, Det:

Aliens abduct you. They find some trace of Neanderthal gene in you and alter your make-up so that you're a full-blown 'Thal with only vague memories of your life as a Homo Sapien. The aliens claim that these memories are false, residuals from your time in the captivity of the Sap-heads.

Sapiens are, they say, a wholly evil race. Saps commit horrible atrocities- they rape each other, murder each other, kill animals for no good reason, destroy habitats, poison the land, sea, and air, mutilate the natural order of things, and are generally hateful and irredeemably violent.

They lie and tell you that you've always been a 'Thal, that you have a family back home that loves you and that you're part of an important exploratory mission that is also trying to save the universe from utter destruction at the hands of the Saps. But you can't help feeling strange, violent compulsions and having memories of another life... as a Sap.

Then you find out that you have, in fact, always been a Sapien and that you've been lied to by your captors (not rescuers). They attempt to explain off what they've done (taking you away fromyour home, family, environment and the only life you've ever known) by saying that you're better off as a Neanderthal, that they've "cured" you of your Sapien-ness and isn't being a 'Thal so much better than the vicious ways of the Sapiens, anyway?

I agree that the ruse was dishonest and they should have just started with the truth. Explain to Micheal why its in everyone's interest, including the Wraith's, to become human.


Bit of a weird comparison, maybe, but the point is that just because the Wraith way of life isn't like OUR way of life doesn't necessarily mean that their lifestyle isn't "good" for them.

It remains to be seen exactly what that lifestyle is, how it works for them and whether or not they'd be better off as humans.

There are a couple of threads around discussing whether or not the Wraith are evil. Might be worth dragging one up again for deeper discussion.

You can't argue about morality once you play the cultural relativism card. Their lifestyle is good for them but so is serial killer's lifestyle of randomly murdering people. We don't have to respect either lifestyle because it infringes on human liberty. The Wraith's sole existence is to deny another person their own existence. It makes their existence immoral and if they were moral creatures, they'd end their cycle of feeding by suicide if necessary. The Wraith can't look down on us the same way we look down on cattle because cattle don't possess a personality (taken from Warren's moral space traveller that went into the argument of defining a person philosophically).

Nurgle
January 19th, 2006, 12:30 PM
There is a problem with the "human or death" choice when it comes to the Wraith. The wraith are immortal, and by making them into human, removing their ability to regenerate, you are artificially shortening their otherwise limitless lifespan. While it may take a few years for them to die of aging, you are still killing them.

It could be considered an extremely cruel way of killing them, since this formally immortal sentient being KNOWS his lifespan is know limited.

randy
January 19th, 2006, 02:01 PM
--Morality can also have no bearing on the argument - errant assumption. Underlying part can be merely survival for the race - whether humans deem unethical or not. The Wraith's impetus need to syphon Humans is like any other life cycle; the need to survive. The sole fact that Humans have the cognitive ability to recognize their surroundings, interact, construct social standards, create complex thoughts does not preclude them from being fed upon. Wraiths did not arbitrarily choose to evolve from the iratus bug into their present state (unless evidence suggest otherwise). The Wraith have every right to exist like any other human. Coincidentally, humans have become apt fodder to their dietary needs; ingrained in their culture for eons. If a person was brought up in cannibalism - which has been documented in Africa - can I tell them they have no morals? They believed consuming their enemies would make them stronger. The relativism card seems relevant in this case. As the previous poster mentioned we do not know the entirety of the Wraith civilization; feeding off humans could be pure convinience instead of prying for surrogate sources. There could be a prospect of Wraith groups (holding esoteric views) living in inconvinience, on a distant planet, believing the alternative to be immoral. Regardless, humans have the responsiblity to protect themselves lest be victims to the Wraith; if evolution has not given the tools needed to fend predators such as the Wraith, can you really blame the predator?

Tok'Ra Hostess
January 19th, 2006, 02:21 PM
--Morality can also have no bearing on the argument

I agree. Morality doesn't really come into it - for either side.

I especially liked SM's 'Thal and 'Sap analogy.(BTW, ever read Robert Sawyer's Neanderthal Paralax? Very close to what you described). But I don't blame the humans for using every subterfuge to defeat their predator. As for the way team Atlantis went about it, it was one of those "it seemed like a good idea at the time" things that got quickly out of hand.

Ouroboros
January 20th, 2006, 12:58 AM
It's funny to because for all the talk of the favour they thought they were doing Michael I'd image that from a Wraith perspective what was done to him would be considered a horror story of the highest order. So chilling and seemingly impossible that it might not even be believed by most.

If Wraith told scary stories to their kids the story of Michael the Wraith would surely keep the little green buggers awake all night in their little hibernation pods.


Why does everyone keep positioning the idea that what Atlantis did was somehow wrong? There's several other posts explaining that the Wraith can either be cured of their need for humans or killed. And when the Wraith depend upon other people as food, their act on feeding on another person is wrong. The Wraith don't have a reasonable existence. Their entire existence is immoral because they kill other people for food.

What they did to him was unforgivable. It was like I said ,the stuff of nightmares from his POV. You get taken from your home by hostile aliens who then horribly mutate you into a weaker form that better suits them and tell you that you can either accept this or they're going to outright murder you. You lose your immortality, you lose the physchic connection you have with your people, you lose your family and friends and your identity and then they tell you that they're "doing it for your own good because they've unilaterally decided that your species is "evil" and it's their right to extinct your enite species through this mutation process. Yep they want to do it to the rest of your people to. That means all those people you care about back home, friends, loved ones,family etc. Do you feel the urge to murder them all with nuclear fire rising yet?


The only ethical choice that the Wraith have in their current form is to starve or commit suicide.

This is silly. Nature is loaded with predators, should they all go drown themselves in a river to? Predation is a perfectly reasonable and effective means of survival for a species. It been here since that first mico organism figured out it could eat other micro organisms and it'll be here when all the suns burn out. There's nothing immoral about predators taking lives to continue their own through need of sustinence. We kill each other for much much stupider reasons than they kill us for. If anyone should get nominated for species wide suicide for killing too many sentients without a good enough reason it's going to be us before them.


You're using a false analogy. There's a human survival need for the Wraith to be turned into humans. The Wraith personality gets to exist in a slightly modified vessel. If cows suddenly became people, what need would they have to change humans into cows? And if cows can change humans into cows, why not change cows into humans? They'd have more advantages in human form anyways.

You missed the point. The point was how much would you enjoy being turned into a quote unquote "infearior" lifeform like a Cow/dog/whatever. It was meant to illustrate how the Wraith are going to feel and thus how they're going to react to this drug thing if we pull it on them. I don't really care if it's a flawless analogy in onjective philosohical terms. It works well enough to illustrate that point.

Like they were humans turned into Cows is pretty much exactly how the Wraith are going to feel when we pull it on them. Worse infact since a Human>Cow mutation wouldn't be screwing anyone out of a life of immortality. Yeah that's going to be a sore spot.

Expecting them to thank us for mutating their entire race against their will into a lessser form expressly to further our own interests is going to provoke nothing short of a species wide outrage and a vicious desire to kill all real humans responsible.

We're honestly better off trying to negotiate with them now, that's how bad this plan is. They look at us as pathetic lesser beings sure, and they'd never talk to us on equal terms or agree to any kind of deal. They also don't yet hate us with the seething fire of a million suns though, like they will after we mutate them all and then ask them to say thank you.

Amaunator
January 20th, 2006, 03:06 AM
It's funny to because for all the talk of the favour they thought they were doing Michael I'd image that from a Wraith perspective what was done to him would be considered a horror story of the highest order. So chilling and seemingly impossible that it might not even be believed by most.

If Wraith told scary stories to their kids the story of Michael the Wraith would surely keep the little green buggers awake all night in their little hibernation pods.



What they did to him was unforgivable. It was like I said ,the stuff of nightmares from his POV. You get taken from your home by hostile aliens who then horribly mutate you into a weaker form that better suits them and tell you that you can either accept this or they're going to outright murder you. You lose your immortality, you lose the physchic connection you have with your people, you lose your family and friends and your identity and then they tell you that they're "doing it for your own good because they've unilaterally decided that your species is "evil" and it's their right to extinct your enite species through this mutation process. Yep they want to do it to the rest of your people to. That means all those people you care about back home, friends, loved ones,family etc. Do you feel the urge to murder them all with nuclear fire rising yet?



This is silly. Nature is loaded with predators, should they all go drown themselves in a river to? Predation is a perfectly reasonable and effective means of survival for a species. It been here since that first mico organism figured out it could eat other micro organisms and it'll be here when all the suns burn out. There's nothing immoral about predators taking lives to continue their own through need of sustinence. We kill each other for much much stupider reasons than they kill us for. If anyone should get nominated for species wide suicide for killing too many sentients without a good enough reason it's going to be us before them.



You missed the point. The point was how much would you enjoy being turned into a quote unquote "infearior" lifeform like a Cow/dog/whatever. It was meant to illustrate how the Wraith are going to feel and thus how they're going to react to this drug thing if we pull it on them. I don't really care if it's a flawless analogy in onjective philosohical terms. It works well enough to illustrate that point.

Like they were humans turned into Cows is pretty much exactly how the Wraith are going to feel when we pull it on them. Worse infact since a Human>Cow mutation wouldn't be screwing anyone out of a life of immortality. Yeah that's going to be a sore spot.

Expecting them to thank us for mutating their entire race against their will into a lessser form expressly to further our own interests is going to provoke nothing short of a species wide outrage and a vicious desire to kill all real humans responsible.

We're honestly better off trying to negotiate with them now, that's how bad this plan is. They look at us as pathetic lesser beings sure, and they'd never talk to us on equal terms or agree to any kind of deal. They also don't yet hate us with the seething fire of a million suns though, like they will after we mutate them all and then ask them to say thank you.
Ouroboros and others have done well to explaint the ethical issues of mutilating a Wraith. It's been proven that it is very traumatic for them and an immoral thing to do.

Having said that, Michael and his Queen want to drug to use it on their fellow Wraith, to mutilate them and feed on them.. How moral are the Wraith now?

Tok'Ra Hostess
January 20th, 2006, 08:04 AM
Damn! :(

Amaunator, I take it that spoiler is for an upcoming ep?

Folks, please be kind and write what ep your spoiler is for. Lots of people, for whatever reason, put current ep details in spoiler space, and I thought that's what I would be reading.

Amaunator
January 20th, 2006, 11:36 AM
Sorry, new to the forum :). The spoiler is for SGA-220 "Allies".

GateByte
January 20th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Hi, i've been roaming this board for a couple of months now, but this episode bugged me so much that I felt the need to join in order to express myself.

Ok, I'm not saying the ep is awful or anything (seriously, how can you get worse than The Tower?), I'm just saying that I had some serious issues with what was going on.

First, if they're going to capture a wraith, and want to continue to keep Atlantis a secret, why on Earth would they bring the wraith back to Atlantis. I mean, just keep him at the Alpha site, especially if they just intend to ship him off there when he's no longer being cooperative.
Second, ok, so they brought him to Atlantis, but with his memory wiped, did they really need to tell him it was Atlantis, especially when they weren't sure they could trust him? And sure, yeah, let's just invite the 'wraith-turned-human' to live with us in our city, like we're all just one big happy family.
Third, once Michael knew he was a wraith and became uncooperative, why transport him to the alpha site. It's less secure, and the stargate is way more accessible in the event he gets free. I think they should have just kept him caged up, and waited to see what happened. I mean, if they don't want to kill him while he's a human, just wait until he turns wraith, then do it, since morals/ethics seemed to be thrown out the window slightly anyway.

I did however like that 'our' characters were the bad guys. I mean its good to see a different side of them, even if it seemed like Ronon was the only sane one, and everyone else was acting OOC, especially Weir.

Ok, so rant over. Sorry for the long post, just thought I'd vent my frustration.

And, as a side note, OMG I should never have watched this ep in the dark with headphones, seriously almost gave me a heart attack when Michael had the flash of himself as a wraith for the first time. Connor Trinneer did a great job as both the human and wraith sides of Michael, and I think pushed the ep away from bad to Ok in my books.

PG15
January 20th, 2006, 09:08 PM
First of all, these are very good points (they just didn't bother me as much), but I'll try to argue them anyhow. I'll probably fail miserably, but hey, same old samd old. ;)




First, if they're going to capture a wraith, and want to continue to keep Atlantis a secret, why on Earth would they bring the wraith back to Atlantis. I mean, just keep him at the Alpha site, especially if they just intend to ship him off there when he's no longer being cooperative.

It's likely that Beckett needed the equipment in Atlantis. When Mike became uncooperative, he was still human, and therefore didn't need extensive equipment to keep him that way. A few injections will do fine, and the Alpha Site can handle that.

Besides, as you go on to say later, the Alpha Site is unsecure. It's much harder to catch a Wraith than a Human that was a Wraith.


Second, ok, so they brought him to Atlantis, but with his memory wiped, did they really need to tell him it was Atlantis, especially when they weren't sure they could trust him?

Does it really matter? Mike will know he's in some super advanced city. He may not know that it's Atlantis, but if the story progressed the way it did, he didn't need to know. Eventually, when he gets back to the Hive, the other Wraith will realize what he had saw, and will arrive at the same conclusion as if he just told them himself.


And sure, yeah, let's just invite the 'wraith-turned-human' to live with us in our city, like we're all just one big happy family.

Well, one of their goals is to see whether a Wraith, with all its "wraith-y" parts removed, can survive as a normal person in human society.

Unfortunately, he couldn't. But they didn't know that.


Third, once Michael knew he was a wraith and became uncooperative, why transport him to the alpha site. It's less secure, and the stargate is way more accessible in the event he gets free.

Yes, but if he got out on Atlantis, he can kill a lot more people.


I think they should have just kept him caged up, and waited to see what happened. I mean, if they don't want to kill him while he's a human, just wait until he turns wraith, then do it, since morals/ethics seemed to be thrown out the window slightly anyway.

Well, I doubt the ethics thing will be that easy if they knew that he was once a human and interacted with them just like any other guy. None of the other Wraith did that.

Oh, and welcome to the forum! :D

Ouroboros
January 20th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Having said that, Michael and his Queen want to drug to use it on their fellow Wraith, to mutilate them and feed on them.. How moral are the Wraith now?

Wow this whole virus scenario just keeps getting stupider and stupider. Why would it be so important for them to turn their enemies into humans when we already know Wraith can eat other Wraith from "defiant one" and get pretty pumped up when they do it to. This had better come with a good explanation.

Cynicat
January 21st, 2006, 06:18 AM
Pretty much everything regarding good idea/bad idea and the morality issues of this episode has been covered, so I just thought I'd toss in a few specific comments.

I like the choice to view the main characters as though through Michael's eyes for the most part - when around him they came across as elusive (especially Sheppard), suspicious, and slightly sinister. Barely recognisable as the characters we've gotten to know over the last two seasons. Indicative of how much circumstances have changed, and of the kind of choices the Atlanteans are being forced to make in order to survive.
Even the lighting in their scenes with him reflected this - the cold filters, strong highlights, and faces kept in half-shadow all working to heighten the tension and increase the sense of malice. The use of spotlighting was also very effective, especially in the opening shot of Michael in the infirmary; as was the shaft lighting through the blinds in Heightmyer's office after he discovers the truth. Mad props to DOP Micheal C. Blundell.


General stuff:

Altantis in the mist - stunning.

ex-Blade: Trinity set - getting a great workout, looking good.

Michael's version of the jerky-jerky dance - unique.

Ronon in general - badass. :ronon:

Carson struggling with morality - *hugs him*

Aussies in Atlantis - Oi! Oi! Oi! :D

Amaunator
January 21st, 2006, 09:28 AM
Wow this whole virus scenario just keeps getting stupider and stupider. Why would it be so important for them to turn their enemies into humans when we already know Wraith can eat other Wraith from "defiant one" and get pretty pumped up when they do it to. This had better come with a good explanation.

Spoiler (Michael, Allies): Humans are weaker and in a one-on-one are unable to resist a Wraith. And we humans are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. There may also be consequences to Wraith cannibalism in an analogous way that human cannibalism is unhealthy (prion diseases). Imagine a group of frail humans with total amnesia on a Hive ship. They'd be sitting ducks.

bitnine
January 21st, 2006, 10:48 AM
You know, if this was a major project that they were planning for some time, it makes me wonder why they didn't grab up some Re'ol memory agent.

AutumnDream
January 21st, 2006, 09:15 PM
I have TPTB read this thread and actually explore these concepts in the future. :D

Dromag67
January 22nd, 2006, 10:18 PM
The part where he looked in the mirror and saw a Wraith scared the living crap out of me the first time.

Caught me off gaurd, probably even moreso if I hadn't of read the spoilers :)

adk06
January 24th, 2006, 07:32 PM
Spoilers highlight below to read

Ok so by now everyone knows the stargate atlantis episode's are all over the net. Has anyone seen Episode 218 yet Michael cause I wanna know if my theory about whats gonna happen is correct
oh and could someone tell me how to do a spoilers tag?

Peoples_General
January 24th, 2006, 07:59 PM
[ spoiler ] ....blah blah blah.... [ / spoiler ]

Orion is the name of the Ancients ship found in Inferno.

adk06
January 24th, 2006, 08:11 PM
Spoiler highlight below to read

thanks oh and actually i've seen the episode Michael it was pretty good what did you think of it?
i'm most excited about Inferno

JUNIOR
January 28th, 2006, 04:36 PM
I think the Ep. would have been better if *possible spoilers* they would had used the memory recall machine from SG-1 in Ep. 9X13 to insert selected memories of someones life into his head and try to erase the bad ones he had. Who knows, maybe they'll do it in a future Ep. in season 3 or a later season. But that could be the key to defeating the Wraith along with the Wraith drug. The things that they could have possibly learned from "Micheal" with that machine oh well too bad!! maybe next Wraith.

T'saria
January 30th, 2006, 02:27 PM
There is a problem with the "human or death" choice when it comes to the Wraith. The wraith are immortal, and by making them into human, removing their ability to regenerate, you are artificially shortening their otherwise limitless lifespan. While it may take a few years for them to die of aging, you are still killing them.

It could be considered an extremely cruel way of killing them, since this formally immortal sentient being KNOWS his lifespan is know limited.


I completely agree with you about the cruelness of making a
wraith into a human and the lifespan thing. how awful...why do
they feel the need to make wraiths "human" anyway?
isn't the real issue how they eat, not what they are?
I think it's arrogant of humans to decide the best fate for the
wraith is to make them human. pardon if it has been said before.

why not just fix it so they can eat differently and be done with it!

aside from the immortality thing...just think of what it is like
to go from being a wraith to being a human *shudder. shudder*:eek:

PG15
January 30th, 2006, 05:21 PM
They're doing this "cruel" thing to him because they know how to. They have no clue how to make a Wraith eat something else.

maxbo
January 31st, 2006, 05:18 PM
I loved this episode. Seeing events unfold through Michael’s eyes gave this episode such a different, edgy feel that I wish I had seen it spoiler free. By focusing on Michael's feelings, our regulars came across as almost Dr. Frankenstein-like characters. We were meant to sympathize with Michael and I did. However, Michael was a Wraith and what the SGA team was attempting was too experimental (and too dangerous) for them to be so lack in security, but I put the blame on TPTB for that bit of foolishness, not the characters. Even in terms of plot-driven writing, it didn’t make any sense that Michael wasn’t set up at the Alpha site from the beginning and it wasn't believable that anyone in Atlantis would think it was a good idea to allow him access to Atlantis. That was just lazy, incomprehensible writing.

Anyway, getting back to the SGA team. As different as each Atlantis member’s reaction was to Michael, I could see where each was coming from:

Elizabeth: She has had to move away from her usual peaceful mediation stance to accept that they are dealing with an enemy that is not receptive to negotiation. Whether it’s because the Wraith need to feed on humans to survive or because they prefer to feed on humans to survive, the fact is that the Wraith and humans can’t co-exist. As leader of Atlantis she has had to consider using a means of defense that she would normally find repugnant and her way of dealing with this (at least in this episode) was to become cold and stoic -- a different Elizabeth from the one in Critical Mass.

Carson: He’s such a soft touch that he seems to still have the hope that his research will some day benefit the Wraith as much as humans. He seemed to have misgivings more about the timetable of using his retrovirus than the actual using of it and his discomfort (about rushing the use of the retrovirus and keeping the truth from Michael) was painful to watch. That same almost dangerously optimistic and compassionate guy shown in Duet was present here.

Teyla: Her belief that Wraith experimentation wouldn’t work (and/or was wrong) and her ability to connect with the Wraith (and thus feel Michael’s fear, pain and confusion), clouded her judgment here. Because she seemed to feel everything that Michael was feeling, she realized that his pain was real and as a result she dropped her guard. I don't believe she was more susceptible to Michael's influence because of her Wraith DNA, I believe she was more susceptible because she felt too much compassion for him.

Ronon: I believe he was the only one who kept his wits about him from beginning to end. Yes, he came across as a hardass, but that's the way everyone involved should have been. Especially, when Carson informed them that the current form of the retrovirus only had short-term results. To Ronon's credit, he showed remarkable restraint considering his up close and personal experience with the Wraith for so many years.

Sheppard: As a military leader, his no-nonsense "this is war" stance is what I expected from him. As was mentioned in Season 1, the humans are vastly outgunned and outnumberd by the Wraith so they have to find ways to tip the scale in their favor or else accept their current position on the food chain in the Pegasus galaxy.

In Season 3, I hope the TPTB follow up on the many issues raised in this episode because as much as I enjoyed this episode, it would be frustrating to watch it again if TPTB hit that damned reset button after the Season 3 opener.

Puddle Jumper 1
February 3rd, 2006, 05:11 AM
ok i just watched micheal and i was FREAKED out when he looks in the mirror and the wraith was in it i had my volume up heaps and my heart skipped like 25 beats:wraith:

birdieey
February 7th, 2006, 02:23 PM
The wraith aren't like the borg. They were NEVER human. Michael isn't going to spontaneously generate memories of a life he never had and can't begin to fully understand and I think it was incredibly stupid of the entire Atlantis crew to think that this ruse might work.


This (above quote) is the essential reason this episode did not work for me. Forget the ethics (for the moment). Michael was a wraith with "amnesia" and therefore, spoke, acted and reacted like a human?

Memory may be important but nothing is stronger than instinct. His language and mannerisms were all human, (he did walk a little funny, but that may just have been the actor) I think he even said "see ya", to Rodney. Even Teyla doesn't say "see ya".

Imagine if when he was fighting with Teyla he had slammed his hand against her chest instead of choking her. It would have been embarrassing and shocking (and would have added another dimension to Ronan freaking out). Or if instead of just recognizing the language on Rodney's computer he had spoken some of the words.

Since wraith have telepathic abilities and seem to use them to communicate it may have been interesting to see him accidently begin to speak to Teyla telepathically on instinct. Or have itchy hands, or ask if his hair has always been this short, or question what floss is, or have trouble using cutlery... anything that might have actually differentiated him from the rest of the Atlantis team. Something that would have made it believable for him to be so accepting of the fact that he used to be a wraith.

BTW - I don't think he had a very wraith like reaction to finding out that they had tampered with his DNA, or human like reaction for that matter. Sheppard freaked out a hell of a lot more when he found out he was turning into a bug.

vaberella
February 14th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Hey...remember though that Dr. Heightmeyer was in teh helm of all this when it was going on. And we know she knows hypnosis. How do we know she wasn't feeding him subliminal messages while he was being drugged? How do we know they weren't all messing around psychologically with teh guy when they would come to visit and see him, so that in the long run he would pick up on things.

Further more..mannerisms are easily picked up. Remember in Elia she pretty much was able to learn everything and react very humanily besides the effect of the hunger she felt. Plus remembr the food-eater wraith and how his mannerisms were....pretty much human with an evil streak----who's to say how they talk amongst each other. Plus I always thought there was an heirarchy amongst the Wraith and the way they fed.

The higher ones were more human hence their more humanistic mannerisms besdies the ones with something on their face. So there's that..and then there's also how they feed off of people..i thoguth they picked up a bit of their memories and also more human mannerisms and see things into the human.....like let's say Rogue..albeit minute. But of course the baser instincts of the iratus was always present and diluted those human feelings over time depending on how long they've fed...

i don't know..just speculating on the Wraith...

VB

Falcon Horus
February 20th, 2006, 07:14 AM
I'm not sure if this is going to make sense, and whether it's tied in with the current discussion...

Michael's memory was just wiped clean during the transformation from Wraith to human.

So, when you can't a remember a thing of who you were before the "trauma" isn't it logical then that you start picking up things from the people around you.

They fed him stories which he believed to be through and reacted accordingly. Though Michael always felt something was off otherwise he wouldn't have told Heightmeyer that.

Callie
February 23rd, 2006, 09:37 AM
After Michael and Teyla have gone through the Alpha site’s Gate, we see John standing at the DHD. His face is reflected in the central blue button. The camera moves around behind him and something else reflects in the bottom of the button. I think that we briefly catch the reflection of either the top of the camera or the boom.

birdieey
February 24th, 2006, 01:18 PM
Further more..mannerisms are easily picked up. Remember in Elia she pretty much was able to learn everything and react very humanily besides the effect of the hunger she felt. Plus remembr the food-eater wraith and how his mannerisms were....pretty much human with an evil streak----who's to say how they talk amongst each other. Plus I always thought there was an heirarchy amongst the Wraith and the way they fed.VB

Elia was different she was raised by humans, and while I agree that mannerisms are easily picked up nothing is stronger than instinct. I watched the episode again a couple of nights ago and I noticed that when Michael knocked Teyla down he did sort of have his hand on her chest, I wish they had played that up more.

The higher leveled wraith do have more "human" mannerisms but not human from Earth,(ie. see ya) it was too natural. I would have prefered for his demeanor to be more hesitant and forced. Sort of a "I know I'm supposed to do this, or say this, but it really doesn't feel natural."

If you watch the season finale (small spoilers below) ....

... you'll see how different Michael speaks, it's very formal (similar to Teyla). I think it would have been interesting for him to have spoken that way in this episode. He complained to Heightmeyer about feeling different, about something feeling off, but these feelings were never really demonstrated through his interactions with other people. He got a long so well with everyone (except Ronan), that it seemed weird to me that he was so sure something was wrong. But hey that's just me.

Falcon Horus: To me the fact that his mind was wiped completely is even more of a reason for him to occasionally "wraith out". Instinct is all he had left.

cheers,

b.

MarshAngel
February 24th, 2006, 06:33 PM
This (above quote) is the essential reason this episode did not work for me. Forget the ethics (for the moment). Michael was a wraith with "amnesia" and therefore, spoke, acted and reacted like a human?

Memory may be important but nothing is stronger than instinct. His language and mannerisms were all human, (he did walk a little funny, but that may just have been the actor) I think he even said "see ya", to Rodney. Even Teyla doesn't say "see ya".

Imagine if when he was fighting with Teyla he had slammed his hand against her chest instead of choking her. It would have been embarrassing and shocking (and would have added another dimension to Ronan freaking out). Or if instead of just recognizing the language on Rodney's computer he had spoken some of the words.

Since wraith have telepathic abilities and seem to use them to communicate it may have been interesting to see him accidently begin to speak to Teyla telepathically on instinct. Or have itchy hands, or ask if his hair has always been this short, or question what floss is, or have trouble using cutlery... anything that might have actually differentiated him from the rest of the Atlantis team. Something that would have made it believable for him to be so accepting of the fact that he used to be a wraith.

BTW - I don't think he had a very wraith like reaction to finding out that they had tampered with his DNA, or human like reaction for that matter. Sheppard freaked out a hell of a lot more when he found out he was turning into a bug.

I'm watching it now and I'm having the same issues. He just happens to understand the CD drive and he can read English? It's too easy and unrealistic. Even humans from another planet should have had more problems than he has.

Daniel's_twin
February 24th, 2006, 07:05 PM
I liked this ep to an extreme. Yes, there were plot holes (I'm not gonna list them, you guys seem to revel in that) , but if you overlook them (yes, you can do that) it's teriffic!

I don't really have much to say in particular. Teyla was phenomenal, and now that we have seen that she can be directly influenced by the Wraith, will she be considered more of a liability then before? Ronan has gotten a better part then he has for a little while, and Beckett was nicely pulled off. I liked his calander.

I'm not gonna rave, but this was another solid episode of Atlantis that I feel deserves 5 out of 5 stars, tying it with SG-1 for me. Keep the solid stories coming (and no more Kirking!! without it, it's wonderful!):cool:

spg_1983
February 24th, 2006, 07:08 PM
So let me make sure I have this straight, we die of diseases everyday, we cant even cure the common ****ING cold, yet super becket can convert a wraiths DNA into a humans overnight?!?! GGGGAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *Mind implodes at the utter stupidity of the show* God before I just disliked this show, but now I actively hate this show, it sucks in every convievable way. I firmly believe that the PTB are actively TRYING to make the worst show possible. Stargate Atlantis is quite easily the ****iest show ever made. This episode goes well beyond the monkey **** approach to writing. To write stories of this epic levels of **** one has to be actively trying. So for that I actually have to give the writers a hand, before now Atlantis sucked because the writers didn;t seem to care and just wrote any gibberish that came to mind, but now they have woven a tapestry of such pure **** with a skill Michealangelo would admire. It takes a real artist to create something this epicly bad. Atlantis writers? My hat is off and my nose plugged to you! Bravo!!

Erin
February 24th, 2006, 07:10 PM
McKay almost gave it all away when he first talked to Michael haha. McKay such a bad actor!

Anyway this episode was so heartrenching! I felt so bad for Michael. I was hoping they could successfully get him back.

Daniel's_twin
February 24th, 2006, 07:12 PM
McKay almost gave it all away when he first talked to Michael haha. McKay such a bad actor!

Anyway this episode was so heartrenching! I felt so bad for Michael. I was hoping they could successfully get him back.

It was tragic when he reverted back, wasn't it? And he fought himself for a while before he was about to feed on Teyla, like he was trying to hold onto a last shred of humanity. :cool:

mckaychick
February 24th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Omg i just got done watching it and i thought it was great!!!!YEah mckay did almost give it away but it was still brilliant. I was sooo happy to see conner triner again, he is such a great actor.

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 07:16 PM
I liked it...thought it was a good ep..not perfect but good.


Elia was different she was raised by humans, and while I agree that mannerisms are easily picked up nothing is stronger than instinct. I watched the episode again a couple of nights ago and I noticed that when Michael knocked Teyla down he did sort of have his hand on her chest, I wish they had played that up more.

The higher leveled wraith do have more "human" mannerisms but not human from Earth,(ie. see ya) it was too natural. I would have prefered for his demeanor to be more hesitant and forced. Sort of a "I know I'm supposed to do this, or say this, but it really doesn't feel natural."

If you watch the season finale (small spoilers below) ....

... you'll see how different Michael speaks, it's very formal (similar to Teyla). I think it would have been interesting for him to have spoken that way in this episode. He complained to Heightmeyer about feeling different, about something feeling off, but these feelings were never really demonstrated through his interactions with other people. He got a long so well with everyone (except Ronan), that it seemed weird to me that he was so sure something was wrong. But hey that's just me.

Falcon Horus: To me the fact that his mind was wiped completely is even more of a reason for him to occasionally "wraith out". Instinct is all he had left.

cheers,

b.

First off...my point is that Eliya could be taught...then any Wraith could be taught and I have this feelign their far more humanistic than we give them credit for.

Now my question is...how long has he been around on the base? It would have to be a couple of weeks...if not a few months at the least. When your in sleep what do we know of the subconcious mind can pick up during R.E.M.

I'm no doctor, but isn't that a plausiability. I can see John may have probably spoken to Carson while they were examining him. Or any of the other crew of Atlantis, besides Ronon and Teyla. And again their tone, the pitch, things like that...arent' they easily transferrable.

It's like hwen your sleeping and you wake up singing a tune or in your sleep your having a dream with a tune in it, you wake up and it was playing in the background while your sleeping.

I don't think taht was far fetched. As for reading....continuity always plays a role, and I didn't think he could read all that much---but again you watch and you learn. People who use lets say a computer you can watch and remember what they do. I mean my 2 year old cousin was looking at her mother like she had another head, when she saw her pressing the wrong buttons and actually said, 'No, mummy it's like this.' Again I don't think Michael was just there for like a week and everythign came to pass...there had to be a significant amount of time..and he hprobably had session after session....picking up nuances and approaches.

Again---something to wonder is if Michael is like 'ALL' humans, I think we're throwing in our own people perceptions within his diagnosis. Do we know he uses his brain capacity as everyone else? The Wraith are mentally advanced---meaning their powers of control people with mental illusions and mentally requesting information. We as humans can't do that, how do we know how much Wraith was still passed on.

This is why I strongly believe Teyla was sent...to sort of open that connection and needle around his mind. She probably sent nothing..but then again Teyla is a novice with mental abilities and she doesn't really have much to play on, does she?

So again....I think in really arguing the point though is if we have a timeline (I admit BSG is much better at doing that for us) and if we had PhD's in neurology....even if that....since the human mind it self is still a mystery let alone the mind of a Wraith, then a mind of a Wraith once it becomes human. Speculation is great...but again I'm getting the feeling that we're definitely throwing in a lot of our basic, if not non-existent knowledge on the effects of the drug, R.E.M., time, abilities, and what not....

Red Tigress
February 24th, 2006, 07:17 PM
This episode was definently freaky. I said "Oh, [insert word of choice here]!!" on more than one occasion. But I liked it, overall.I was really surprised at Teyla though. With Ronon, I was just like "Yeah, way to go!" :ronananime01:

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 07:20 PM
This episode was definently freaky. I said "Oh, [insert word of choice here]!!" on more than one occasion. But I liked it, overall.I was really surprised at Teyla though. With Ronon, I was just like "Yeah, way to go!" :ronananime01:

What are you surprised about by Teyla? I was far more surprised by Weir and the mistake that will cause a series of more infinitely far more irrepairable mistakes!
VB

MarshAngel
February 24th, 2006, 07:24 PM
I liked it...thought it was a good ep..not perfect but good.


So again....I think in really arguing the point though is if we have a timeline (I admit BSG is much better at doing that for us) and if we had PhD's in neurology....even if that....since the human mind it self is still a mystery let alone the mind of a Wraith, then a mind of a Wraith once it becomes human. Speculation is great...but again I'm getting the feeling that we're definitely throwing in a lot of our basic, if not non-existent knowledge on the effects of the drug, R.E.M., time, abilities, and what not....


That's really reaching to explain it all away and if the writing is good we shouldn't have to try to come up with an explanation of anything the writers didn't intend to leave a mystery and there's no mystery here just plot holes they didn't bother to cover and mistakes the make over and over again.

If he's been around for a significant length of time, picking up these human characteristics we should know that, see that, otherwise it's fair to assume it never happened. There should have been an adjustment period to clear it up.

The episode may still be entertaining if you ignore the glaringly obvious but it's unfortunate that we should have to at all.

Episode after episode now the writers wash right over the details in favor of the overall plot. Details matter though.

PG15
February 24th, 2006, 07:30 PM
So let me make sure I have this straight, we die of diseases everyday, we cant even cure the common ****ING cold, yet super becket can convert a wraiths DNA into a humans overnight?!?! GGGGAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *Mind implodes at the utter stupidity of the show* God before I just disliked this show, but now I actively hate this show, it sucks in every convievable way. I firmly believe that the PTB are actively TRYING to make the worst show possible. Stargate Atlantis is quite easily the ****iest show ever made. This episode goes well beyond the monkey **** approach to writing. To write stories of this epic levels of **** one has to be actively trying. So for that I actually have to give the writers a hand, before now Atlantis sucked because the writers didn;t seem to care and just wrote any gibberish that came to mind, but now they have woven a tapestry of such pure **** with a skill Michealangelo would admire. It takes a real artist to create something this epicly bad. Atlantis writers? My hat is off and my nose plugged to you! Bravo!!

Umm....

Oh forget it.

Weir'sRedShirt
February 24th, 2006, 07:46 PM
So let me make sure I have this straight, we die of diseases everyday, we cant even cure the common ****ING cold, yet super becket can convert a wraiths DNA into a humans overnight?!?! GGGGAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *Mind implodes at the utter stupidity of the show* God before I just disliked this show, but now I actively hate this show, it sucks in every convievable way. I firmly believe that the PTB are actively TRYING to make the worst show possible. Stargate Atlantis is quite easily the ****iest show ever made. This episode goes well beyond the monkey **** approach to writing. To write stories of this epic levels of **** one has to be actively trying. So for that I actually have to give the writers a hand, before now Atlantis sucked because the writers didn;t seem to care and just wrote any gibberish that came to mind, but now they have woven a tapestry of such pure **** with a skill Michealangelo would admire. It takes a real artist to create something this epicly bad. Atlantis writers? My hat is off and my nose plugged to you! Bravo!!

But... um... if you didn't like anything about it, why are you in here? This isn't a discussion; you just ranted.

Anyway... personally, I was glad for "Michael". Beckett, I'm glad to see, if growing past just a doctor; both in "Michael" and "Critical Mass" TPTB concentrate on him and his moral beliefs. Beckett's and Weir's blame-scene was crucial, I think, to building proof of at least a firm friendship between to the two. Weir's character was the most interesting to watch- you'd think she'd have a problem with the experiments, but the most open one about the immortality of them is Teyla; in fact, Weir allows them to happen. Huh.

Ronon... I usually don't trust his judgement. He considers nearly anything a threat, and as one who hadn't read any spoilers for "Michael", I thought at first that he was being overly-protective of Teyla, to a point of him having possessive feelings over her, but in the end, he was right, which surprised me, I think almost pleasantly. It's good to know that maybe the way he thinks will be considered more within upcoming episodes. At the end, about the new 'defensive strategy', maybe Ronon will have a say in that.

Just my two-cents ramble.

spg_1983
February 24th, 2006, 07:48 PM
But... um... if you didn't like anything about it, why are you in here? This isn't a discussion; you just ranted.


This is the episode thread where one gives their opinion of the episode, I gave my opinion.

CalmStorm
February 24th, 2006, 07:54 PM
Never thought I would say this.....but....Ronon was the only one that had any sense at all in this episode.

Weir'sRedShirt
February 24th, 2006, 07:56 PM
This is the episode thread where one gives their opinion of the episode, I gave my opinion.
Okay. :sheppard: I just didn't think the ********'s were neccessary.


Never thought I would say this.....but....Ronon was the only one that had any sense at all in this episode.

Agreed. Weird feeling, trusting Ronon over everyone else.

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 07:57 PM
That's really reaching to explain it all away and if the writing is good we shouldn't have to try to come up with an explanation of anything the writers didn't intend to leave a mystery and there's no mystery here just plot holes they didn't bother to cover and mistakes the make over and over again.

If he's been around for a significant length of time, picking up these human characteristics we should know that, see that, otherwise it's fair to assume it never happened. There should have been an adjustment period to clear it up.

The episode may still be entertaining if you ignore the glaringly obvious but it's unfortunate that we should have to at all.

Episode after episode now the writers wash right over the details in favor of the overall plot. Details matter though.

I agree with you completely. But maybe they just assumed that people would pick up on that. That's the impression I was given when I saw the ep..that he was there for a significant amount of time. While unconcious..imagine what that does to your body? We realize that the chang takes time too...although rapid. Even on the Alpha site I thought they were there for at least a week before he broke theh bonds..

I mean to first be taken against your well and then there's primary injection, especially when it was never tested on another person..and then there's all the monitoring after the first initial dosage and watching the body and making studies on how it affects the cells..and then we have a second dosage and donig that. Then we have the fact on some level he was probably sedated..I mean that would also play a role. Again projecting my own thoughts on what the medical team would do. But it just seemed like something Beckett would do, not only because he's a doctor but because he's also a scientists and tests and books and all these things need to be consulted.

Past cells, the Iratus bug backlog. I mean you can tell he was not sleeping much in that scene where Michael takes the disks and the computer. We can establish that he's been up day and night trying to get all the information. They do sort of say Day 1, Day 3 on the disks ..but that wouldnt' have made sense to me either; unless of course he means each Day to be, each day there was physical change---which would make sense. But then this is where TPTB went wrong and I wont' even deny it.

But I understand their point...it's not like we can sit there and go through the whole story and detail the whole scene, from the capturing and of course to the moments in time as each injection was administered. But it could hav ebeen better done in teh show. I see that and I agree with it..but I also see their point.

But lately I've been having bones to pick with TPTB's wishy washiness on these things....it's a mess..maybe they'll rectify the situation in next season eps...

But I put it down to weeks and months and those days listed as the days of physical perceptual change. And all that makes sense to me..and I take it as it is. Although I do see your recriminations and problems, good ep though.

VB

spg_1983
February 24th, 2006, 07:58 PM
Okay. :sheppard: I just didn't think the ********'s were neccessary.
Hey you call a rose a rose and you call a pile of **** a pile of ****.

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 08:02 PM
Never thought I would say this.....but....Ronon was the only one that had any sense at all in this episode.

Actually it was Ronon, Teyla, and John. But keep in mind though John takes orders from whom? And I'm sure that there were plenty of arguments on his part. Didn't you see when John said certain things weren't a good idea..but they were pretty much dismissed. And Teyla was against this..you get that later on in Allies although I do feel you can definitely see in the scene with Michael that she was being puppeteered. The words didn't seem like they were really coming from her.

And dont' get me wrong..I love the girl and strongly believe she has a strong mind and thoroughly know she put up a fight..cause I knwo she wouldn't want to see any Wraith at 10 feet near her..remember her nightmares in "The Gift" But she is part of a team and has no control over Atlantis and it's doings. And unfortunately you don't see that she had problems with it..until it's mentioned, again in Allies. But John looked just hard pressed about the situation...poor guy! I mean as a military man he of all people would know this was a crap idea...

But then who's on his head..so what's he supposed to do. Murphy's Law would tell me..'worst case scenario' and we all know that John as a military official only thinks in that way and then moves into doing what he has to do under his CO.

VB

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 08:04 PM
Hey you call a rose a rose and you call a pile of **** a pile of ****.


hey dude I have no qualms..although I would love if you could expound on them a bit so I can really read into the problems...And all opinions are welcome..so go ahead. Rant and Rave....

ShadowMaat
February 24th, 2006, 08:06 PM
Someone really needs to hide the stupid pills that the people of Atlantis are addicted to 'cause pretty soon our various enemies won't have to lift a finger to conquer us, we'll destroy ourselves out of sheer idiocy. ;)

Weir'sRedShirt
February 24th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Someone really needs to hide the stupid pills that the people of Atlantis are addicted to 'cause pretty soon our various enemies won't have to lift a finger to conquer us, we'll destroy ourselves out of sheer idiocy. ;)

Amen to that. :P

spg_1983
February 24th, 2006, 08:15 PM
hey dude I have no qualms..although I would love if you could expound on them a bit so I can really read into the problems...And all opinions are welcome..so go ahead. Rant and Rave....
Ok lets start with the idea of transforming "Micheal" in the first place. We can't cure the common cold but Becket can design a retro virus that can convert DNA? Forget the Wraith, they need to get Becket working on AIDS and Cancer, he'll have them worked out in a fortnight. The very idea is laughable. The biological impossibilities are staggering. Like Micheals teeth. The Wraith teeth are sharp and very pointy. Yet the magic virus can convert pure enamel into normal perfect human teeth? Even assuming for a moment that the virus somehow penetrated the teeth, which is impossible, where did the extra matter to make the new tooth come from?

Now lets talk about the memory thing. He is supposed to have no memory of being human because he never was, yet he can work a human computer, under stands earth expressions, has earth manners, etc.

The ethical irresponsiblity is staggering as well. Aside from the fact that they are basically commiting speciecide, they are violating everything we as humans are supposed to stand for. This course of action makes them no better than the wraith!

There is so much more with this storyline but I will type it later I don't feel like going into it right now.

CalmStorm
February 24th, 2006, 08:18 PM
Actually it was Ronon, Teyla, and John. But keep in mind though John takes orders from whom? And I'm sure that there were plenty of arguments on his part. Didn't you see when John said certain things weren't a good idea..but they were pretty much dismissed.

John seemed uncomfortable with telling "Michael" the truth and letting him out of the infirmary....that is the only thing that he seemed to express was not a good idea. I could not tell with absolute certainty that he was against the idea in its entirety, only with how to proceed with the situation.

The impression I rec'd from Teyla was that she was only uncomfortable lying to Michael, but seemed certain that him becoming and staying human was in his best interest.

MarshAngel
February 24th, 2006, 08:20 PM
Someone really needs to hide the stupid pills that the people of Atlantis are addicted to 'cause pretty soon our various enemies won't have to lift a finger to conquer us, we'll destroy ourselves out of sheer idiocy. ;)

So true. Thus far, the wraith haven't even had to do anything for us to put ourselves at risk. Honestly, if they ever saw an episode of the show they would sit back and just wait, since the brilliant people of Atlantis are going to one day trip and hit the self destruct button.... but only after trusting their lives to complete strangers who've already proven themselves untrustworthy, thereby eliminating half the population through sheer stupidity. It's been their tried and true method so far in Pegasus.

Whenever possible, trust strange people.

Keep your enemies close ... but don't bother watching them too closely.

Don't watch your back or make sure anyone's looking over your shoulder thereby letting any idiot know exactly where you are and have been.

Lie badly but believe everything others say.

Make assumptions.... often.

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 08:27 PM
John seemed uncomfortable with telling "Michael" the truth and letting him out of the infirmary....that is the only thing that he seemed to express was not a good idea. I could not tell with absolute certainty that he was against the idea in its entirety, only with how to proceed with the situation.

The impression I rec'd from Teyla was that she was only uncomfortable lying to Michael, but seemed certain that him becoming and staying human was in his best interest.

Yeah, I got that until I saw Allies....the cut from TPTB is awful. But when you see 'Allies' the comment was made by John that, he thought they were able to convince her that it was a good idea.

I've just been getting after Hot Zone that John has been a bit more reluctant to fight something he disagrees with..or he fights for it..but then again he's not in command. You see this a lot in 'Coup D'etat' He was completely against not trying to find out about Lorne...and having Teyla and Ronon do that investigation....but he was overruled and he did look upset, like he was biting his tongue from saying any more.

VB

derrickh
February 24th, 2006, 08:33 PM
Is there any reason Weir shouldn't be removed as leader of Atlantis immediately? She's been a complete disaster this season.

D

Weir'sRedShirt
February 24th, 2006, 08:40 PM
Is there any reason Weir shouldn't be removed as leader of Atlantis immediately? She's been a complete disaster this season.

D

I don't agree with that completely, but I will say she needs someone of equal standing that's a military officer right beside her. John's not enough, considering his orders come from her. Caldwell? Maybe, but the situation in "Critical Mass" didn't gain him a whole lot of trust in a lot of people's eyes.

Jeez, Weir needs some sleep, I think. War doesn't suit her; has she just abandoned her moral beliefs?

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 08:43 PM
Ok lets start with the idea of transforming "Micheal" in the first place. We can't cure the common cold but Becket can design a retro virus that can convert DNA? Forget the Wraith, they need to get Becket working on AIDS and Cancer, he'll have them worked out in a fortnight. The very idea is laughable. The biological impossibilities are staggering. Like Micheals teeth. The Wraith teeth are sharp and very pointy. Yet the magic virus can convert pure enamel into normal perfect human teeth? Even assuming for a moment that the virus somehow penetrated the teeth, which is impossible, where did the extra matter to make the new tooth come from?

I agree with this point. Beckett is almost God-like.


Now lets talk about the memory thing. He is supposed to have no memory of being human because he never was, yet he can work a human computer, under stands earth expressions, has earth manners, etc.

Okay well that's pretty explainable..first off there are psychiatrists that do play games with yoru mind while your unconcious. So I don't know how important of a role Heightmeyer played..another problem. And as for working a comp...pretty easy to explain as well as mannerism..it's just things you pick up on. Ever seen a clean slate---example a 2 year old child? They can sit ther eand watch you for liek 10 minutes and mimick you..they think what their doing is normal....and you just look at them copying you. I have my baby cousin just sitting there with the computer and the screen went black she said, 'Oh man that's to bad' And without ever using a lap top she seemed to know where to press a button. It's not rocket science here..and if you see people around using them..which I'm sure he did..Mckay..he probably was given a tour of the base and through watchign he mimicked...not too hard to explain that.


The ethical irresponsiblity is staggering as well. Aside from the fact that they are basically commiting speciecide, they are violating everything we as humans are supposed to stand for. This course of action makes them no better than the wraith!

I agree..you see that in Teyla's face when Michael said that...it was like she knew it was a bad idea..but sort of trying to defend Atlantis and what they did. It was disgusting for me as well to see that. My problem was also what do you think about bringing back a threat like that to your home base.

All I kept thinking in my head...and when I spoke to my net buddy about it, I had to ask her....how many people were at Atlantis and the mainland....she said about 1230..on average..an arbitrary number.

Okay, who ever agreed to kidnap a Wraith and bring it back to base 'worst case scenario' thrown out the window....I think John would hav esomething to say about that, but he agreed and all those invovled--all to blame, each at a certain level. You have just put the head of all 1230 people under your protection, under the guillotine.

I mean I have a problem with the species turning thing..my sister right now is complainign to me. She's like look 'I's like turning a hyena into a dog or or cat...it's a new species which can reproduce and mate. What's done is done---and they are on top of the food chain. What we do to animals is what they do to us..not to many vegetarians running around?'

But more to that..is that you take a threat back to your base when you pretty much saved your skin at first....they should have taken him to an empty base..they found that Alpha site idea right quick..didnt' they? They should have thought of that, IF they had to do the tests..to bring him there...

That is one of my biggest problems.

VB

FoolishPleasure
February 24th, 2006, 08:47 PM
I Jeez, Weir needs some sleep, I think. War doesn't suit her; has she just abandoned her moral beliefs?
I've only seen the episode once, but I believe Beckett said he was the one who pushed hard for this experiment. Weir said she would take responsibility, as she was in charge and gave the go-ahead, but she trusts Carson and probably felt if he was comfortable, she was too. Sheppard didn't seem to have any problems with it to me either.

Agree with others that Ronon was really the only one who saw the light of day - when Michael discovered who he really was, he should have been eliminated, cold as that sounds.

mckaychick
February 24th, 2006, 08:48 PM
yeah i agree michale should have been eliminated when he figured out what he was. no question

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 08:51 PM
I don't agree with that completely, but I will say she needs someone of equal standing that's a military officer right beside her. John's not enough, considering his orders come from her. Caldwell? Maybe, but the situation in "Critical Mass" didn't gain him a whole lot of trust in a lot of people's eyes.

Jeez, Weir needs some sleep, I think. War doesn't suit her; has she just abandoned her moral beliefs?


Tell me about it....this is not what she's used to. I mean she's very out of her league. I do feel she came onto this with stars in her eyes and idealistically. She was enchanted as I had mentioned before. And as such..these kind of things never ever crossed her mind. Why should it, right?

Anyway these things are happening..and she's not getting the strongest exclaimations at her most disastrous mistakes. It just is impossible to me that common sense was thrown out the window..you don't need military experience to know that you dont' bring the enemy or threat home. Anyone would tell you that.

I do feel that she needs someone up there with her...but that didn't even come handy when you see Allies, Caldwell was pulled into a mess, but it could be because he and Daedy weren't around for this mess. John is great but his views were clearly dismissed in this ep....I mean it was a complete shut down. Made me wonder what happened in the meetings before the kidnapping the Wraith...oh man kidnapping. How low can we go?!

But TPTB is writing it this way for probably character development so what am I supposed to say, although just very disappointed.

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 08:52 PM
yeah i agree michale should have been eliminated when he figured out what he was. no question

Ditto..but he wasn't..and again I wonder who made that decision. But Weir wouldn't be able to have that kind of blood on her hands. Anyone would have gladly done it...John/Ronon definitely. But he was sort of human at that point, and I can't blame her for that...I wonder if I would be able to do it...maybe I would wait until he was pure Wraith before I put the bullet in him.

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 08:53 PM
Someone really needs to hide the stupid pills that the people of Atlantis are addicted to 'cause pretty soon our various enemies won't have to lift a finger to conquer us, we'll destroy ourselves out of sheer idiocy. ;)

I concur.

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 08:56 PM
So true. Thus far, the wraith haven't even had to do anything for us to put ourselves at risk. Honestly, if they ever saw an episode of the show they would sit back and just wait, since the brilliant people of Atlantis are going to one day trip and hit the self destruct button.... but only after trusting their lives to complete strangers who've already proven themselves untrustworthy, thereby eliminating half the population through sheer stupidity. It's been their tried and true method so far in Pegasus.

Whenever possible, trust strange people.

Keep your enemies close ... but don't bother watching them too closely.

Don't watch your back or make sure anyone's looking over your shoulder thereby letting any idiot know exactly where you are and have been.

Lie badly but believe everything others say.

Make assumptions.... often.

I agree with you on this Marsh Angel...ugh disappointment abound..doesn't even get better in Allies.

Captain-Peregrine
February 24th, 2006, 09:00 PM
This was definatly one of the darker episodes I've seen throughout all of Atlantis. It was not only very, very tense but very, very thought-provoking. I liked how the writers brought up some really touchy subjects--especially about how far you go during war. And it also makes one stop and think.

The humans on Atlantis are doing what they are doing to protect not only themsevles but everyone back on Earth. They are pushing way past their comfort level in order to see to the safety of the city, themselves and their home planet. They are just trying to survive. But aren't the Wraith doing the same thing? Everything has to eat to live. And it was pointed out--in Hot Zone, I think--that the Wraith do not simply kill for the sake of killing. THey kill to eat--they kill to survive. Do not humans do the same thing?

In all reality, I felt really bad for Micheal. Not only was he lied to throughout the entire episode, but he was being blamed for something he could barely control. When he killed the soldier while trying to escape, he only did it out of self-defense, not out of spite. I believed him when he told Teyla that he was only trying to escape and that he had not tried to kill him. He was a man just trying to figure out who he really was, and aren't we all trying to do that?

Also I felt horrible for Beckett. I mean, yeah he was the one who was pushing for the expieriment on the retrovirus, but the experimentation part of it seems to be totally going against his moral code as doctor and healer. He's hurting this man--whether or not he means to and whether or not he needs to--and that is hurting him.

This was an extreamly thought provoking episode, as I said, and brought up some really deep, meaty issues. I always enjoy the more lighthearted, just-for-the-hell-of-it episodes, but episodes like "Micheal" are great for bringing us back to just how desperate our situation in Atlantis is becoming--we are at war and we are ready to do everything in our power to keep ourselves and our kind safe from the Wraith. I was very impressed. Also, I loved McKay mentioning the blue jello. :D Kudos to the writers!


(oh, and sorry if I just totally repeated anything someone said earlier. I just saw this episode two hours ago and, lazy me, didn't feel like reading through nine pages in one night. :D)

the fifth man
February 24th, 2006, 09:02 PM
I really liked this episode. But I have to ask - What the hell are the people of Atlantis thinking? Some of you are right, the Wraith won't have to worry about destroying the city. The Atlantis team will eventually do it themselves. But I can't wait to see Michael again. He was awesome throughout.

Captain-Peregrine
February 24th, 2006, 09:04 PM
yeah i agree michale should have been eliminated when he figured out what he was. no question

But then wouldn't that make us no better than the Wraith or the Goa'uld or any of the other bad guys--destroying those that no longer have any use to us? No, I think they did a really good job toeing the line in this episode--and crossing it in some parts.

mckaychick
February 24th, 2006, 09:05 PM
But then wouldn't that make us no better than the Wraith or the Goa'uld or any of the other bad guys--destroying those that no longer have any use to us? No, I think they did a really good job toeing the line in this episode--and crossing it in some parts.

i agree with you on some parts, but as they said this is war. When it comes to war sometimes moral ethics and stuff like that are thrown out the window

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 09:13 PM
But then wouldn't that make us no better than the Wraith or the Goa'uld or any of the other bad guys--destroying those that no longer have any use to us? No, I think they did a really good job toeing the line in this episode--and crossing it in some parts.

The point is not use...the point is the fact that he could destroy us..and then where would we be?! I see that as safeguarding what we have. I do see it as being bad.but heh we have to do that....I mean this poses a problem later on that we didn't kill him. Now as being like a WRaith..that's not true.

The Wraith preserve their food..and keep them around for dinner. And if we remember 'The Hive' they have worshippers who they protect, who happen to be human. So then....I would say that makes us worse than the Wraith!

VB

Captain-Peregrine
February 24th, 2006, 09:14 PM
Ah, and there's the rub. THat is what makes these episodes so great--they bring up situations like this where people are faced with the facts of what they are doing. I agree that in war sometimes people are pushed way outside their comfort level and act in ways that may go against their moral code. I just think it odd--Weir hated the fact that they almost resorted to torture in Critical Mass against a human, but when it comes to experimenting on a Wraith, it's okay.

...dark, dark episode.

Captain-Peregrine
February 24th, 2006, 09:15 PM
The Wraith preserve their food..and keep them around for dinner. And if we remember 'The Hive' they have worshippers who they protect. So then....I would say that makes us worse than the Wraith!

VB

I was going to mention that, but I decided I'd ranted enough. :D

mckaychick
February 24th, 2006, 09:17 PM
well in critcal mass the city and everyone on it was in serious trouble and doing what she did was the only thing she could think of to save the city.

PG15
February 24th, 2006, 09:19 PM
I'm alright with the science stuff. It's fiction after all. If you can't suspend your belief (within the world of Stargate), then why bother?

Hey, if I can believe there are things out there that could make a ship go a few million light years in 4 days, I can believe that there are drugs out there that can alter DNA.

Besides, the science wasn't important in this episode. It was all ethics and morality. If you decide to focus on the science instead of what's actually being presented, then IMHO your priorities are in the wrong place.

saxamoophone
February 24th, 2006, 09:24 PM
Ah, how I now miss Enterprise.

Anyone else notice how this made for the 3rd main startrek character to be on Stargate in the last 2 weeks? ;)

I'm pulling for Captain Kirk for the 200th Sg-1 Episode!


::End of Startrek luv fest::

Anyways, not a bad episode. Enjoyable, mostly because you really felt kinda sorry for Michael (Conner).

Nice to see a ghetto alpha site. Hopefully we'll get a underground site soon enough too...

Now it would be interesting to see what happens if they CAN cure the wraith. Would most of the WANT to be cured? If they can live forever as waith (which, it seems they can) it's possible we have real live ancents that were "transformed" into wraith way back in the day. Could make things interesting.

The great thing about atlantis is that they don't have to stick with the wraith storyline forever. Once they are done with it, they can just move the city to some other galaxy or whatnot! ;)

mckaychick
February 24th, 2006, 09:26 PM
3rd major startrek charcter?? I thought conner was the second?

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 09:30 PM
Now it would be interesting to see what happens if they CAN cure the wraith. Would most of the WANT to be cured? If they can live forever as waith (which, it seems they can) it's possible we have real live ancents that were "transformed" into wraith way back in the day. Could make things interesting.



That's a good question. but then it comes out how many of them will think they need to be 'CURED'....that would imply that their in some way faulty. When their just an evolved species. And then it questions how our own conciet makes us assume that if you are not like us then you are 'wrong' and we have to 'fix' something--when there's thousands of them.

That would be cool to see real life ancients transformed...I'd like to see that!

VB

PG15
February 24th, 2006, 09:31 PM
No, 3rd's right (and very creepy):

The Scourge - Robert Picardo (The Doctor on Voyager)
Coup d'Etat - Colm Meaney (sp?) (Miles O'Brien on DS9)
Michael - Connor Trinneer (Trip from Enterprise)

On a side note, I wonder if any of the writers watch Royal Canadian Airfarce, which had a character who refered to himself as "I'm Mike, from Kenmore"

Funny stuff. :D

Bobthespirit
February 24th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Hmm...good episode.

Except...I think they messed up. They introduced this theme of the drug that can change wraithe into human several episodes ago. At that time, the theme was cool. But, there were so many lame, derivative standalone episodes in between that I didn't care as much.

The season premiere and what happened to Ford, and the introduction of Ronon had me really excited. But since then, the general lack of inspiration has waned my interest.

GatetheWay
February 24th, 2006, 09:39 PM
This was a very creepy episode. I havn't felt this conflicted about a Stargate episode in a long time. Not only did it succeed in making me feel sorry for a Wraith, which I never have even in Instinct, but it made the Atlantis team look like one of those evil conspiracies in the X-Files.

I had seen the episodic photos for the ep and had thought the expedition had held him at the Alpha site from the very beginning so I was very surprised to see him wake up in Atlantis. Despite the logical and plot errors I thought this was a well done ep. mainly because of how well Michael pulled it off. He made me very sympathetic toward him and I felt the Atlantis team had gone too far this time. Seeing him in that cell with his knees to his chest looking to helpless and lost just broke my heart. I know he was a wraith but that was something he couldn't help and I thought that no matter how human they could ever make him they would always treat him different and with caution.

I didn't realize what a stupid idea it was for them to have brought him to the city until Sheppard practically listed out everything that Michael probably had learned and would tell the other Wraith. I've stopped being surprised in Atlantis' stupidity. As far as I'm concerned, season one was just a completely different city, one with BRAINS. From what I've heard about Allies it sounds like they will keep on making these incredibly dumb and destructive mistakes I just hope they pay for them thoroughly.

Over all, good ep. I really liked Conner’s acting and I liked how dark the episode was. I found it pretty easy to ignore the inconsistencies aka Michael reading, knowing how to use a computer etc. but Atlantis’ stupidity annoyed me yet did not surprise me in the least. The episode was done well if flawed.

Captain-Peregrine
February 24th, 2006, 09:57 PM
This was a very creepy episode. I havn't felt this conflicted about a Stargate episode in a long time. Not only did it succeed in making me feel sorry for a Wraith, which I never have even in Instinct, but it made the Atlantis team look like one of those evil conspiracies in the X-Files.


That's what I liked and disliked, too. It was creepy, which I liked, and it was creepy--which I don't like. What can I say? I'm a hypocrite. :D

Hyperspace
February 24th, 2006, 10:24 PM
I would like to rant about this episode, because I think that of all the ways to give up Atlantis' existence, doing it due 'internal science experiment gone awry' was IMO a lousy way to go, especially if it was bungled the way this happened through sheer incompetence.

It seemed contrived, from 'Doctor happens to fall asleep at table and no one watches' to 'no guards around,' this just seemed too lax.

And what sign of an episode is it when Ronan is the only sane voice in the room?

It was, quite frankly, extremely ludicrous that they did not take sufficient precautions to avoid revealing the existence of Atlantis. Just bringing a Wraith to Atlantis itself was extremely worrisome. Although the Wraith "Jedi Mind Trick" was interesting and conveniently timed, did no one remember Teyla's susceptability to these things? And given that with 2 guards he killed someone, they leave him alone at the Alpha Site?

I find these issues hard to believe, and frankly I found this episode the weakest of the lot. I was astounded at the lack of self-critical evaluation displayed by Atlantis members in this episode, and extremely disappointed in the way this plot unfolded. The morality of the Atlantis team members seemed far off the mark, and given all the reservations expressed by multiple team members, the fact that Dr. Weir did little to nothing in addressing those concerns was uncharacteristically showing a lack of leadership on her part. Not to mention that many of the other characters acted not in character, to my view. For one, they were remarkably absent...Sheppard's security lacking, McKay not there...

It was a travesty of military strategy the way this was handled, and truly bungled. You'd think if 'Michael' were coming in for regular injections, any info on his true identity would have been well hidden. And he already has an accent before being told he's a Texan? Giving him a computer to access secrets so soon...and not having guards around at the Alpha Site????!!!! And not destroying the hiveship/base where 'Michael' was captured???!!!!

I love Atlantis too much, it deserves better than this. Many may be interested in the Wraith-human story, which I find interesting if not entirely original--Atlantis itself has focused on similar variations a number of times before. But I would have liked this story better if the Atlantis team had not been so completely mistaken in their approach not only to the experiment itself but the whole security around it.

This episode gets a serious thumbs down from me...one of the first if ever I've given for an Atlantis ep.

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 10:45 PM
I would like to rant about this episode, because I think that of all the ways to give up Atlantis' existence, doing it due 'internal science experiment gone awry' was IMO a lousy way to go, especially if it was bungled the way this happened through sheer incompetence.

It seemed contrived, from 'Doctor happens to fall asleep at table and no one watches' to 'no guards around,' this just seemed too lax.

And what sign of an episode is it when Ronan is the only sane voice in the room?

It was, quite frankly, extremely ludicrous that they did not take sufficient precautions to avoid revealing the existence of Atlantis. Just bringing a Wraith to Atlantis itself was extremely worrisome. Although the Wraith "Jedi Mind Trick" was interesting and conveniently timed, did no one remember Teyla's susceptability to these things? And given that with 2 guards he killed someone, they leave him alone at the Alpha Site?

I find these issues hard to believe, and frankly I found this episode the weakest of the lot. I was astounded at the lack of self-critical evaluation displayed by Atlantis members in this episode, and extremely disappointed in the way this plot unfolded. The morality of the Atlantis team members seemed far off the mark, and given all the reservations expressed by multiple team members, the fact that Dr. Weir did little to nothing in addressing those concerns was uncharacteristically showing a lack of leadership on her part. Not to mention that many of the other characters acted not in character, to my view. For one, they were remarkably absent...Sheppard's security lacking, McKay not there...

I love Atlantis too much, it deserves better than this. Many may be interested in the Wraith-human story, which I find interesting if not entirely original--Atlantis itself has focused on similar variations a number of times before. But I would have liked this story better if the Atlantis team had not been so completely mistaken in their approach not only to the experiment itself but the whole security around it.


I completely understand your ire with the direction of the story. There was definitely plenty of buggled wholes that were left open. I reasoned that Beckett fell asleep was because he was doing so many tests...what I couldnt' understand was where were the guards who were supposed to be watching Michael.

But then just bringing Michael to Atlantist was the biggest mistake of them all...there was no bigger. And I blame both Weir and John for that. More so Weir, because John takes orders from her..not the other way round. And we saw this happen only in 'Hot Zone' since then I've been feeling that John has been sort of leashed, especially during 'Coup D'etat'----as a military official we can expect John to know better. But he's not the leader of Atlantis and can't commandeer Weir....but IF Caldwell was there I'm sure we would have seen different results..and probably unlikely that she would have brought Michael to Atlantis...but probably to the Alpha Site as Caldwell would have still been interested in running the tests.

I definitely see what you mean about the WRaith and Teyla thing. I think, and this is the vibe I was getting from the beginning. All those scenes we see of Teyla AND Michael were set up so that Teyla could test out that Wraith connection thing she has---and see if there were any Wraith capabilities while Michael was human. It just doesn' work otherwise..i just saw her as a decoy and a dobule agent..to report back her findings and make friends...but nothing else. And I think since she felt nothing before from him...she wasn't expecting, nor were they, of his WRaith mental abilities and he took control. But what's interestnig is that if they develop this we might be able to see that Teyla can control a few Wraith of her own if she works on her ability. Remember in 'The Gift', it was said the people with her abilities were able to defeat a Wraith attack sucessfullly!

And your complaint about the planning and security..yeah it was one of my issues as well. They should NEVER have brought him back to Atlantis. I dont' like the testing personally. But, if it must be done...no one who knows anything about SELF-PRESERVATION, would have allowed the tests run on Altantis..regardless of facilities and capabilities..they should have been done off site..because he is always a threat..no matter what..especially if he's not in a cell.


It was a travesty of military strategy the way this was handled, and truly bungled. You'd think if 'Michael' were coming in for regular injections, any info on his true identity would have been well hidden. And he already has an accent before being told he's a Texan? Giving him a computer to access secrets so soon...and not having guards around at the Alpha Site????!!!! And not destroying the hiveship/base where 'Michael' was captured???!!!!

I so agree with you...a lot of problems..and a lot of stupidity. Incompetence galore.:mckay:

GatetheWay
February 24th, 2006, 10:55 PM
I'm curious about his accent. How did a Wraith have a distincive accent like that anyway? And did he loose it soon after he found out? I can't remember...

Hyperspace
February 24th, 2006, 11:09 PM
I definitely see what you mean about the WRaith and Teyla thing. I think, and this is the vibe I was getting from the beginning. All those scenes we see of Teyla AND Michael were set up so that Teyla could test out that Wraith connection thing she has---and see if there were any Wraith capabilities while Michael was human. It just doesn' work otherwise..i just saw her as a decoy and a dobule agent..to report back her findings and make friends...but nothing else. And I think since she felt nothing before from him...she wasn't expecting, nor were they, of his WRaith mental abilities and he took control. But what's interestnig is that if they develop this we might be able to see that Teyla can control a few Wraith of her own if she works on her ability. Remember in 'The Gift', it was said the people with her abilities were able to defeat a Wraith attack sucessfullly!

Nice analysis, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who found some of the plot elements rather blind to normal self-preservation sensibilities. I think that the only reasonable way to see Teyla in such a prominent role is as you specified.

And yet, it's unfortunate that they made virtually no mention of this justification for having Teyla in such close proximity, AND that there was no attendant security. You'd think that if Ronan was on watch when Teyla was sparring with 'Michael,' that he could've been on watch at the Alpha Site. If they didn't trust Ronan, then someone else could've been on watch. At least outside the door...having 'Michael' and Teyla escape with only Sheppard and Ronan to chase...and only 2 guards (apparently uninformed, or warned...) guarding the Stargate AND exposure of Atlantis....this seemed entirely lax.

Bama
February 24th, 2006, 11:20 PM
Ah, and there's the rub. THat is what makes these episodes so great--they bring up situations like this where people are faced with the facts of what they are doing. I agree that in war sometimes people are pushed way outside their comfort level and act in ways that may go against their moral code. I just think it odd--Weir hated the fact that they almost resorted to torture in Critical Mass against a human, but when it comes to experimenting on a Wraith, it's okay.

...dark, dark episode.

War is Hell. It's a lesson Elizabeth is learning well and hard and it's one that's obviously been hard on her. In her shoes, I'd have experimented the heck out of the wraith. Teyla was right-he was better off as a human if being something else makes you suck lifeblood from someone. If this ep was supposed to 'thought provoke' me into feeling that the wraith have some kind of right to their lifestyle and the 'humans' are just as bad a boys for being such meanies and wanting everyone to be like them, then it didn't accomplish it.

Overall, I enjoyed the episode a lot. Sure it has holes but every ep does-tis the nature of sci-fi. I just kicked off the shoes and enjoyed the entertainment of this one. Michael was a good character.

vaberella
February 24th, 2006, 11:55 PM
Nice analysis, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who found some of the plot elements rather blind to normal self-preservation sensibilities. I think that the only reasonable way to see Teyla in such a prominent role is as you specified.

And yet, it's unfortunate that they made virtually no mention of this justification for having Teyla in such close proximity, AND that there was no attendant security. You'd think that if Ronan was on watch when Teyla was sparring with 'Michael,' that he could've been on watch at the Alpha Site. If they didn't trust Ronan, then someone else could've been on watch. At least outside the door...having 'Michael' and Teyla escape with only Sheppard and Ronan to chase...and only 2 guards (apparently uninformed, or warned...) guarding the Stargate AND exposure of Atlantis....this seemed entirely lax.


Thanks.

And I have to agree with you on that, comfort level seemed high the security teams or the direction by Sheppard or other military officials in charge. This conceit...is really gonna be a downfall.

I was thinking Ronon was sent on watch Teyla and Michael just incase, things go out of hand..It just didn't flow again how he walked into the room when Michael had Teyla inthe room, slam in the wall and then..leave. It seemed a bit orchestrated and came out of nowhere, especially since there were two guards at the door and the door was open.

In some instances I felt that John was trying to be a bit more assertive (or maybe I'm trying to save him a bit...although he holds a lot of blame...and I think he should have put his foot down like he did in Hot Zone; even if it did show dissention).

I think they just underestimated Michael's Wraith abilites and overestimated Carson as an amazing scientist and his serum. And by doing so they ended up putting themselves into this really bad hole.

I think the two officers were informed..but again really just really stupid. I mean their bodies seemed to be found far off from where the Stargate was..so I'm thinking that they were going to see if they could intercede Michael before he showed up...but underestimated his resourcefulness or were put off guard by Teyla being his hostage......I have no clue really.

FerCryinOutLoud!
February 25th, 2006, 01:33 AM
What I really hate about all this is that we're actually at the same place with the same situation than after last season's 18th episode.. The Wraith know that Atlantis exists and where it is and they're gonna launch an attack. Now the the team needs to work out how to safe the city. Good for last season, but is getting pretty lame now.

That is exactly what i was thinking caty. I'm getting deja' vue over here because i was thinking... "Oh, no the Wraith are going to attack Atlantis! Whatever are we going to do?" We haven't seen this before! *cough cough* It's also annoying how more fire power in both SG-1 and Atlantis is their answer for everything. Whatever happened to attacking your enemies psyche? Like when Sheppard turned the two wraith queens against each other. I think one of the coolest ways to defeat the wraith or at least throw their ranks into chaos would be to turn them against each other. Divide and conquer. But, now we're back to where we were at the end of last season... the wraith are coming! Only now it's not as interesting because we have the option of calling up the SGC or the Daedelus for help. I hope they're going to throw a twist in this that we'll never see coming.

I almost expect Ronan to start walking around speaking in grunts and dragging his knuckles on the ground. I know he hates the wraith and thinks they are the wraith no matter how you slice 'em (which they are) but does he have to so blatantly give Michael even more suspicion that things aren't right by refusing to shake his hand and punching him? And, when he was escorting Michael and the guards to the infirmery he practically provoked Michael into confrotation. (which is what he really wanted) I almost blame Ronan for the guard's death over Michael. I like violence like the next Joe but violence isn't the answer to every problem. Though Ronan as a character sure thinks otherwise. I wish they didn't write Ronan so dumb. I like intensity, but they over do it with Ronan. Well, at least there's one thing with Ronan you can't complain about. He's consistent i'll give you that.

This episode was cool because it delved into morality and different people's concepts of morality. It was dark, which i'll face it, i like dark stories. But this episode left a lot of things up in the air. To me that's a good thing because it makes me eager to see conclusion. I'm sure that TPTB will follow up on this in stride.

I didn't really have a favorite character in Atlantis because i like them all pretty much evenly... The closest i got to having a favorite was Rodney, but now after this episode and the episdoe two weeks ago i think my favorite character is Teyla. She's ever the voice of reason and she never forgets who she is, what she believes, and where she came from. It's just too bad they haven't developed her more this season, rather than put her in the background to babysit Ronan and keep him in line when he throws a temper tantrum.

Auralis
February 25th, 2006, 04:22 AM
A total desaster form the logic point of view, entertaining yes, but again utter braindead character actions are used to generate a plot.

Atlantis and stargate becoming like a contest on how stupid we can make the characters. Its getting painfull.

maxbo
February 25th, 2006, 05:53 AM
Despite the crater sized plot holes and inexplicable character motivations (for example, there was no reason, not even a plot-driven one, to have Michael in Atlantis, ever); the fact that this episode evokes such strong, thoughtful responses makes it a success in my book. Focusing on Michael’s point of view, rather than showing the SGA team argue the pros and cons of Wraith experimentation, was a stroke of genius because it allowed the audience to identify with Michael’s pain, confusion and fear and forced us to think about what the SGA team may have to give up to win the fight against the Wraith-a bit of their humanity.

Although some believe that Ronon was too harsh, I loved that his character wasn’t sacrificed for the plot. He behaved exactly as I expected him to behave. As a runner for several years, he undoubtedly had more up close and personal encounters with the Wraith than most and got to see them in ways that the average human didn’t. As the object of their sport, he got to see them at play and probably realized that, long before the introduction of the retrovirus, they share many similarities to humans. Because of this, Michael probably concerned him more than the average Wraith because perhaps Ronon was afraid that the SGA team would relax their guard in the mistaken belief that Michael was too human to pose as much of a threat. And, he was right to be concerned.

CalmStorm
February 25th, 2006, 06:39 AM
But then just bringing Michael to Atlantist was the biggest mistake of them all...there was no bigger. And I blame both Weir and John for that. More so Weir, because John takes orders from her..not the other way round. And we saw this happen only in 'Hot Zone' since then I've been feeling that John has been sort of leashed, especially during 'Coup D'etat'----as a military official we can expect John to know better.

I cannot blame any of the characters this time around because they were so far out of character I had to step back and just look at this episode and go...'what the h*** was that'

As for John, I have never seen him fail to state his opinion on an issue and he does not seem anymore subdued because of the incident in 'Hot Zone'. He disobeyed a direct order from Cln Everett after he removed Weir and stood up for her before following his orders. The way he stood up to him was really enough grounds for dismissal, but he did what he felt was right. I don't see him leashed in the slightest.

He will not always agree with Weir, but I don't see him holding back any advice or opinions from her. I also feel, that given everything he knows now, if he had to live the whole virus incident over again, he would have done exactly the same thing.

Also in 'Coup D'etat, he was hesitant becaude he did not trust Laden. Good for him and score! Now, he looses that point he just scored by visiting Cowen and seemingly trusting him over Laden. As you put it.....as a military official, I would expect him to know better.

Bucky
February 25th, 2006, 08:51 AM
While am among those who think it was a really stupid plot device to have "Michael" in Atlantis at all, I still found the episode compelling. Given that our regulars seem to have take leave of their senses, I attribute this entirely to Connor Trinneer who played "Michael." I was spoiled from the outset on this episode, but I still could see Michael as a confused amnesiac--as I suppose was the intent of the writers. And Trinneer really sold the "What gives you the right to do this to me?" For the space of the episode, the Wraith were not just malevolent predators on humans, they were an intelligent life form as worthy of existence as any other. It's hard to have sympathy for a Wraith, but Trinneer made me see the situation from "Michael's" p.ov.

Well done.

Bucky

nccjones
February 25th, 2006, 09:32 AM
I gave it a good, but now that I think about it, I should have given it an excellent. It really was that good. I thought it was a departure from the norm which I like every now and then. Connor Trinear is amazing! I loved him as Trip in Enterprise. I felt he brought a great character to life who I feel we won't see the last of. I have a feeling he won't go back to being completely wraith and will retain a bit of his human side which is going to end up eating at him (no pun intended).

I agree that there wasn't enough Rodney, but what little there was of him was amazing as usual. I loved his scene with Michael in the commissary. Rodney didn't act all freaked out like I would have expected him to, he was calm and really wanted to understand Michael. That was actually one of the best scenes of the episode to me. I even really liked Teyla in this episode. She is definately growing on me. I'm really starting to like her as part of the team. She was great with Michael and I was even expecting a little bit of ship to happen. I didn't care for how Micheal was so easily able to control her though. That's some talent of Teyla's to etch the symbols from behind into stone...lol.

Shepard was kind of annoying in this episode and I don't normaly find him that way. I don't know what it was but he just kept grating on my nerves. I'll just suffice that to his role in this episode, he really didn't have a whole lot to do.

Ronan Ronan Ronan. Sorry guys, every week I dislike more and more. I keep saying what good is he and everyone responds...."well, he can track Wraith"....and I'm like ok, what else? And the one good line of Shepard's proved my point. Shepard "Do that thing you do"...Ronan giving him a look. Shepard "among other the...things....you do". What other things? Oh yeah, being a bouncer, I forgot that. His attack on Michael while sparring with Teyla. That scene just made me cringe! I know he has a hatred for the Wraith for all the years they hunted him, but it's the only thing they pretty much show with him. They need to give him another quality or skill to let his character grow besides being a brooding muscle bound bouncer.

Other than that...I really enjoyed this episode and hope to see Michael again in the future. I do believe his conscious will start eating at him and he will be the key to defeating the Wraith.

vaberella
February 25th, 2006, 09:37 AM
I cannot blame any of the characters this time around because they were so far out of character I had to step back and just look at this episode and go...'what the h*** was that'

As for John, I have never seen him fail to state his opinion on an issue and he does not seem anymore subdued because of the incident in 'Hot Zone'. He disobeyed a direct order from Cln Everett after he removed Weir and stood up for her before following his orders. The way he stood up to him was really enough grounds for dismissal, but he did what he felt was right. I don't see him leashed in the slightest.

He will not always agree with Weir, but I don't see him holding back any advice or opinions from her. I also feel, that given everything he knows now, if he had to live the whole virus incident over again, he would have done exactly the same thing.

Also in 'Coup D'etat, he was hesitant becaude he did not trust Laden. Good for him and score! Now, he looses that point he just scored by visiting Cowen and seemingly trusting him over Laden. As you put it.....as a military official, I would expect him to know better.


Yes they were far removed from their normal character. But I can lay blame because the characters were still there. It wasn't like I was watching another show....so by saying what your saying then there shouldn't then be any discussion at all. When there obviously is.

This starts one place...Michael should never ever ever ever have been brought back to Atlantis. That is no.1 That should never have been done, and I think we can agree with this. Who then makes such a decision? It is not John, it is not Carson ultimately?! Is it!? No. It's the individual who is the head of Atlantis. Period. And this was made clear in the meeting where all of the stood and John made a recommendation (because HE was against this Michael roaming free even if he allowed him brought to base) and what happened? He was dismissed and shot down. Because again he follows orders. They'll take his word into consdieration and value his statements but he was not recognized. And does it make sense that he would allow it? He would defend it but would he really allow it? Did you see 'Suspicion'? This was the same thing. He hated that they treated Teyla like the enemy, and her people, but what happened? In the end he was the one to have to convince her. And we all know he hated the decision Weir and Bates made. It's the same thing here.

He can recognize a purpose and follow through. In 'Hot Zone' he blatatly disregarded her order..it was a goog thing, but I was also angry about the dissention, but he did save everyone's life. But since then I have not seen him again WEIR. Your talking about Evereet from season 1. That's not Weir. I'm speakign of blatantly dismissing her like he did in 'Hot Zone'. There is no denyig he would defend Weir, he's done it with Teyla, he's done it with outsiders..and it's clear even if doesn't like her decisions he follows through because he takes orders from no one else,and further more she's his friend and colleague. I won't even deny that.

But since Hot Zone I have not seen a real forceful fight over her decisions...have you? And please name and list it in Season 2 and parts of season 1. In season 1 during the siege she didn't feel it was a good idea to fly out, but he even said he had to do it (fly that suicide mission) and she conceded, but it wasnt' a real battle.

Now again I strongly feel he did go against this..but when we come in it's about in my estimation weeks later, but it still could be days later when the decision was made. My statement was about him involved in teh kidnapping, and I felt he disagreed with it and especially bringing it back to base. But we're days later or more probably weeks later and the decisoin was made now we have to follow through. And in following it through you have to sort of beleive it.

It's like Vietnam....how would it have looked if Johnson had pulled out the men about 2 years after going in and seeing it was a bad idea? He would have looked even stupider..but he still looked stupid even when he left the men there. When your stuck in a position and you have an order to carry out you do so, unless of course you want out off of Atlantis..because not following one could lead to that..as implied in 'Hot Zone'.

I didn't think he trusted Cowen over Laden..he had a healthy dose of suspicion for both. But with Laden he was on a mission to take over Atlantis with Kolya and Kolya has posed a nasty threat against Atlantis more so than Cowen in the past. And as such he was very weary of Laden in that case. But I saw the ep..and I do not think he trusted Cowen.

VB

vaberella
February 25th, 2006, 09:40 AM
Ronan Ronan Ronan. Sorry guys, every week I dislike more and more. I keep saying what good is he and everyone responds...."well, he can track Wraith"....and I'm like ok, what else? And the one good line of Shepard's proved my point. Shepard "Do that thing you do"...Ronan giving him a look. Shepard "among other the...things....you do". What other things? Oh yeah, being a bouncer, I forgot that. His attack on Michael while sparring with Teyla. That scene just made me cringe! I know he has a hatred for the Wraith for all the years they hunted him, but it's the only thing they pretty much show with him. They need to give him another quality or skill to let his character grow besides being a brooding muscle bound bouncer.

I was thinking of your past posts NCCJONES, how did I know you'd say the above?...I can see why you have a problem..and definitely saw what you meant at how he helped in causing the problems they had with Michael at the base....

So man I can't blame you..although I still think that Ronon can be redeemed.
VB

nccjones
February 25th, 2006, 09:55 AM
I was thinking of your past posts NCCJONES, how did I know you'd say the above?...I can see why you have a problem..and definitely saw what you meant at how he helped in causing the problems they had with Michael at the base....

So man I can't blame you..although I still think that Ronon can be redeemed.
VB

I actually agree with you and if you notice, I even hinted at given Ronan something more to his personality or qualities than just a knuckle dragging grunt. I don't like him now because of the way they portray him. I can give him leeway if they try to improve the character.

Last year I totally despised the character Teyla and I still don't care for her when I see first season episodes, but I feel her acting has improved tremendously since last year. She is not as wooden and has really grown as a character. They need to do that with Ronan...his character needs to grow and it hasn't since he's been on the team. In real life, I could not believe they would allow such a person to be apart of such an important mission. Just wouldn't fly.

Tracker
February 25th, 2006, 10:03 AM
Okay, here's my take. Some things people have already said, but dangit, I'm too sick to read all 11 pages

Anyways..

1) I appreciate that actors' schedule have to be accomidated, but honestly people. You really missed McKay in this ep. Love him or hate him, during the large conference scenes, he would have been there giving his opinon. Repeatly. I did like the mess hall scene with him and Michael, but why wasn't the head of the science dept in on these meetings??

However, on a second viewing, it seemed to me that McKay was against the whole thing. There is one fairly telling scene when the gang has to decide whether or not to increase the dosage, and McKay gives the real sarcastic "I told you so" look to Elizabeth's back. Like he was saying, "See? Why didn't you listen to me??"
I don't know if its me reading too much into DH's performance, or if it was intended. But watch the episode with that in mind. It kinda works. Also if McKay was disgusted with the whole thing, that might explain his absence.

2) The guards in the med lab. Okay, I'll give you Beckett being really dang tired, but HELLO? Where were Mumbo and Jumbo? Getting coffee? Didn't they see Michael rifle through Beckett's stuff?

3) As for the tech part. Michael is recognizing Wraith technology. In some amnesia cases, a person will forget personal information, but retain skills and knowladge associated with a profession or basic everyday life (no one's questioned if he knew how to use a toilet!). He picked up the fight moves with Teyla pretty dang quick. Plus, there's been a computer in his room the whole time. Chances are, he either could figure out for himself how to use it, or someone showed him off-camera.

4) Why not do this on the Alpha site? Okay, I agree with most of you there. However, the Alpha site looks pretty primitive, and there's the possibility that they just didn't think that it could be set up for the transformation in time. But I agree, they should have moved him as soon as they were sure he was going to wake up.

5)As for the whole complaint of "Oh, no. The Wraith are coming...again!" It's gotten kinda dull without them. Plus, how bad a threat are they when they haven't figured out that Atlantis didn't really blow up? I mean, really...the Genii figured it out fairly quickly. Atlantis's non-destruction seemed to have become the worst kept secret in the Peguses Galaxy.

All in all, I really did like this episode. I was a little darker than normal, being the good guys weren't necessarily in the right. And it brought up the question again of how far they are willing to go to defeat the Wraith?

ToasterOnFire
February 25th, 2006, 10:15 AM
Someone really needs to hide the stupid pills that the people of Atlantis are addicted to 'cause pretty soon our various enemies won't have to lift a finger to conquer us, we'll destroy ourselves out of sheer idiocy. ;)
Damn, it's like Caldwell brought a big bottle of stupid pills over in Critical Mass and they've been sitting on Weir's desk for anyone and everyone to pop. :P

WHY didn't they do the entire experiment on Michael over on the alpha site? That removes Atlantis from the equation. If Michael did figure out that they were from Atlantis, they could have said that they were survivors after the city blew up in Siege 3. That way Michael wouldn't have known that Atlantis was still around, much less that it was in the same location.

Plus, if they had done the whole thing on the alpha site then when Michael got away it would have been less likely that he would have returned and blackmailed the team to become allies. If the writers had to have Michael figure out that Atlantis was still around, couldn't they have had him figure it out on his own rather than making the entire team make such bad decisions?

I hate having to overlook character ineptitude in order to enjoy a show.

vaberella
February 25th, 2006, 11:06 AM
I actually agree with you and if you notice, I even hinted at given Ronan something more to his personality or qualities than just a knuckle dragging grunt. I don't like him now because of the way they portray him. I can give him leeway if they try to improve the character.

Last year I totally despised the character Teyla and I still don't care for her when I see first season episodes, but I feel her acting has improved tremendously since last year. She is not as wooden and has really grown as a character. They need to do that with Ronan...his character needs to grow and it hasn't since he's been on the team. In real life, I could not believe they would allow such a person to be apart of such an important mission. Just wouldn't fly.


I really believe that they will improve Ronon..and based on what I saw in Allies and what I hope to see in season 3, based on spoilers for a continuation of Trinity, entitled Sateda..I think we will see some kind of minimal improvement if not more than that. And I really hope we see planned out failsafes and probably military strategies with Ronon actually putting in valuable input as I'm sure he can..it's gonna be great.

As for Teyla..okay this was written in Shipper format (yes there's shipper language): But if your interested in my estimation of her character without shipperness until later, and it focuses on why her character was wooden. It's 2 paragraghs which come after the first list of eps.. here's the link Teyla Estimation--albeit Shipper (http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=4967477&postcount=10830).

I completely agree that Teyla was very stilted in season1, and I hope taht my explanation clarifies that....it took me a while to see why she was the way she was and it's very understandable!

JackGyver
February 25th, 2006, 12:52 PM
All in all, I thought it was an excellent episode. A great relief to see that TPTB can still make a good episode, even with all the small plot holes. Michael, the character, is definitely a good addition to the Stargate mythos. I've only skimmed the thread, but I'll see if I can touch on some things that stood out to me.

Moral judgments. I definitely sided with Michael in this episode. I was actually hoping that he'd escape. Having said that though, I can understand why Weir did what she did. They are in a time of war with a viscious, powerful race that could well end up invading and destroying Earth, if they're not careful. And worse, this race cannot be negotiated with. Unless they can give them an alternate food source, or zap them to another galaxy or something, Earth must resort to aggressive tactics to combat the Wraith. Personally, I think Weir has both (A) been pressured/ordered by her higher-ups to begin using tactics like this, and (B) has finally realized the reality of the situation as I said above. So I both understand Weir's side and Michael's side. It's a terrible, difficult dilemma.

I'm surprised there wasn't more visible opposition from certain team members, but I would imagine they all probably recieved a good talking-to from Weir or her superiors about the matter. Shepperd and Beckett were both well-portrayed. Ronon was the one who had it most right, though I disagree with his unwillingness to ever accept a Wraith under any circumstances.

No Caldwell and barely any McKay. :mckay: So sad.

I look forward to seeing Michael as a (hopefully) interesting and quality villain in the future.

mckaychick
February 25th, 2006, 02:02 PM
yeah i wasnt to happy about mckay bearly being in the episode. that was not good

vaberella
February 25th, 2006, 02:22 PM
yeah i wasnt to happy about mckay bearly being in the episode. that was not good

I have to agree..I really missed McKay..he's my fave guy on the show. But what's worse..not even one shot of Zalenka, I love Carson..too and you know he really did deserve a bit of character development. So that's important and I'm glad we got that. We got a chance to see the scientist vs. Man....like we saw with McKay in 'Trinity.'

mckaychick
February 25th, 2006, 02:24 PM
Wow i just realzied that zelenka wasnt in it. I was just paying more attention to the mckay bearly in episode. Yikes!

ShadowMaat
February 25th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Actually, I didn't miss McKay all that much. He's been pimped so heavily in so many other eps it's kind of a relief to see him take a back seat once in a while so that we can be reminded that there are other characters on the show. ;)

mckaychick
February 25th, 2006, 03:16 PM
He will at least be back next week in inferno and will probably have much more screen time unlike in michael

Lida
February 25th, 2006, 03:40 PM
Never thought I would say this.....but....Ronon was the only one that had any sense at all in this episode.

This episode would never have worked without Ronon, and finally, the writers have Dex back in character. Let's hope they keep him there.

I thought Connor Trinneer (hope I spelled his name correctly) was terrific as Michael.

raiyen
February 25th, 2006, 05:05 PM
I believe the only one taking those pills is Weir. When they discussed about integrating Michael into Atlantis, Sheppard is against it and she turns and asks the psychiatrist who in turn says it would be a great idea. Did the same thing later with Beckett and Sheppard. Why even bother to ask anyone in the military. OH... it must not be military situation yet.

acdj31
February 25th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Seems to me the only one who was thinking straight was Ronan. Who in the world actually thought bringing a wraith to Atlantis was a good idea? What's next? How about we bring a wraith through the gate to the SGC and inplant him with a Goa'uld and see if we can't all be friends. To me the biggest problem with this episode is that all the main characters with the exception of Ronan and maybe Teyla seemed to take leave of their senses. Wier and Beckett really seemed out of character in this episode. Now we are practically right back where we were this point in season one, the wraith are comming, again. Just seems a bit soon to revisit this particular plot line.

I was thinking that too. And if you were really going to do this why have him walk around the place or think he is part of the team. I say keep him locked up and see if it really work 100%.

cafine_us
February 25th, 2006, 09:42 PM
For someone who couldn't even remember who he is supposed to be, Michael certainly had a strong moral compass. He could easily recognize that the testing was ethically questionable at best, and he knew that as a human he wasn't supposed to be feeling the unexplained aggression. I was torn between being impressed with Michael's rapid emotional maturation or feeling that the writers had given him too many "human" beliefs.

Jeyla4ever
February 26th, 2006, 12:18 PM
For someone who couldn't even remember who he is supposed to be, Michael certainly had a strong moral compass. He could easily recognize that the testing was ethically questionable at best, and he knew that as a human he wasn't supposed to be feeling the unexplained aggression. I was torn between being impressed with Michael's rapid emotional maturation or feeling that the writers had given him too many "human" beliefs.
Oh, great point!

I can't read everything here, so if I am repeating what others wrote..forgive me!

Overall, the episode was a good story with good action and great characterizations for some of the characters that are sometimes ignored...
I for one, liked the idea of Rodney not shining in this one..and even Sheppard kind of stood on the sideline...
For me, this episode was about Michael and a lot about Teyla...Now, I did mention this in another thread...Yes, I know the episode is titled, Michael...but I thought it was too much about Michael.....Now, I know that he is supposed to be significant in Allies, so that might have to do with it..but for now, it raised more questions than answers....

For example, how did Michael sense Teyla so quickly...do they have the same scent..? or was it because Teyla was trying to tap into his mind...?or what?

Another thing, how come everytime we see that Teyla is going to be fed, she is rescued before they can do anything to her...I wonder if perhaps Teyla is like Ronon, impenetrable to the Wraith...

I love Ronon in this one...he was the only one that knew and was able to call it as it is..Once a Wraith always a Wraith....and what does this mean for Teyla...could Teyla have a higher form of Wraith gene similar to how Sheppard has a higher form of Ancient gene than others...? what does this mean for her? is she using her capabilities to her fullest.? can the Wraith manipulate her so easily like Michael did?

What is happening to Weir? I mean I know she is supposed to be turning dark, but my goodness..she has changed dramatically...why?

Overall, I felt for Beckett and Teyla...both caught in the middle of trying to do something good for others, but sacrificing their own personal beliefs in the process....

Heitmeigher...I was not pleased with her performance in this one...I don't know she just didn't come off as convincing as she did in the Gift...

And, Well..Michael and the actor portraying his character was really phenominal..in my view, he stole the show!

Falcon Horus
February 26th, 2006, 03:00 PM
... she turns and asks the psychiatrist who in turn says it would be a great idea...

*runs in* Heightmeyer's a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. *runs back out*

Tealcfan
February 26th, 2006, 04:29 PM
do you think any wraith could control tayla like michael did?

mckaychick
February 26th, 2006, 04:33 PM
I dont know. Probably not

vaberella
February 26th, 2006, 05:05 PM
do you think any wraith could control tayla like michael did?

Well you have to rewind to 'The Gift' it was established that Teyla can only be controlled if she makes contact with them. It's not the other way around. Now as to Teyla's presence as to why she may have had her link open, I speculated. Based on what I saw in Allies she was against this whole idea, but went along with it. I suspect that she was just invovled to gauge how much of the wraith abilities were present when she was around Michael and report back. She's the only one who can tap into their mind out of everyone. And on a normal basis and as I stated above she wouldn't want to waste her time with Michael human or Wraith at any moment.

So no..no other Wraith can just take over her head, she has to open the link which was stated, she's not a liability, although she can be. But this of course says that if she does open the link and learns to control her ability she could take over the Wraith mind-----now that would be wicked. The wraith can't protect themselves from her, without attacking her. But if she can attack them and her mental abilities are strengthened they can't protect themselves but she can protect herself from them. Remember in 'The Gift' it was also stated that the people who had the gene like she did...they won the battle against the Wraith.

This is the coolest thing. I was actually really interested in this fact. Further more I think you have to be a certain type of Wraith. I think she may share some DNA link with Michael, and secondly depending on how old the Wraith is, it could also denote the level of their mental abilities. Which would then mean that Michael's mental strength is pretty powerful..he was highly ranked in the Wraith.

VB

Tealcfan
February 26th, 2006, 05:34 PM
when michael controlled tayla it creeped me out

vaberella
February 26th, 2006, 06:04 PM
haha..I thought it was cool! Opens to the door for a lot of drama.

Tealcfan
February 26th, 2006, 06:07 PM
i still think it was creepy

Pharaoh Atem
February 26th, 2006, 06:21 PM
great epsiode !!!!

hope to see Conner Trinner he was my favorite from enterprise
e did a amazing job and overall this wasa good episode and a great season overall even thought it ain't over yet

Liam Kincaid
February 26th, 2006, 06:39 PM
I thought the Wraith evolved from Bugs and Ancients, not Bugs and Humans. Why didn't the retrovirus turn Michael into an Ancient instead of a Human? Or are pre-ascended Ancients the same thing as Humans?

obsidianagirl
February 26th, 2006, 10:27 PM
Did anyone else think the guard at the sparring room door looked like a painting? (Before Michael takes Teyla down we get a good view of the door and it is very, very dark and a poster-like SO is standing at parade rest) I thought the guy looked decidedly like he was not a real man and they just had the picture there to look like a SO standing guard.

If anyone else has a different opinion I'd be glad to know why he seemed so flat.

Falcon Horus
February 27th, 2006, 04:09 AM
Did anyone else think the guard at the sparring room door looked like a painting? (Before Michael takes Teyla down we get a good view of the door and it is very, very dark and a poster-like SO is standing at parade rest) I thought the guy looked decidedly like he was not a real man and they just had the picture there to look like a SO standing guard.
If anyone else has a different opinion I'd be glad to know why he seemed so flat.

I'm afraid I'll have to watch Michael again for that little detail...and I'll do so when I get home. You made me curious...

redfox000
February 27th, 2006, 04:46 AM
What was your guys thoughts on Michael?

I thought it was a little naive of them to think that there would not be consequences to keeping Michael alive. Now they are stuck with the Wraith knowing about Atlantis and probably on the way again. What would have been the harm in keeping him in Atlantis. Could he really communicate with the Wraith if that part of him was being suppressed? At least in Atlantis they had better security facilities. And what was up with just the velro on the bed keeping his hands down?

Two questions.

1) How do you think they will be able to defend Atlantis now?
2) Do you think we will see any sympathy from Michael the next time we meet him?

TheWarrior
February 27th, 2006, 04:53 AM
Just to let you know.

There is an official Gateworld.net episode thread on "Michael" where there are tons of fans opinions on the episode.

Check it out here (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=21930)

redfox000
February 27th, 2006, 04:56 AM
I'll check it out. thx.

redfox000
February 27th, 2006, 05:22 AM
Well... not that I think that the Wraith are so wonderful that no-one should do them any harm. It's war, and war often calls for desperate measures. But did they have the right to take an individual and force him to undergo this drastic changes which, and let's try to be realistic, won't have a happy ending? I mean, they couldn't really expect that this will work and that he'll be a happy member of the Atlantis crew/earth citizen from then on, could they?

Why not. Voyager did it with 7 of 9 who used to be a borg. It might have been intresting to have a member of Atlantis who used to be a wraith. They could provide valuble input.

FallenAngelII
February 27th, 2006, 05:27 AM
I'm not sure if this is going to make sense, and whether it's tied in with the current discussion...

Michael's memory was just wiped clean during the transformation from Wraith to human.

So, when you can't a remember a thing of who you were before the "trauma" isn't it logical then that you start picking up things from the people around you.

They fed him stories which he believed to be through and reacted accordingly. Though Michael always felt something was off otherwise he wouldn't have told Heightmeyer that.

We don't really know if it was from the retrovirus or from them somehow blocking his memory using some weird drug or technology. >_>' After all, they kept giving him more. So if the drug makes you forget things, he'd keep forgetting everything again and again and again.

entil2001
February 27th, 2006, 05:46 AM
Plot elements from the first half of the season finally come back into play in this episode, and it’s a welcome change of pace. The writers were struggling since the less-than-stellar Lt. Ford subplot last reared its ugly head, and part of that was a lack of focus. If this episode is any indication, the intention is to shake things up a little just in time for the season finale.

If I were going to emphasize the negative a bit more, I would note that the writers chose a convenient time to remember, all of a sudden, that they had been messing with the “cure” to the Wraith for quite some time. After all, it hadn’t been mentioned for several episodes. More to the point, after flirting with several possible leaks regarding the survival of Atlantis, now one appears just in time to force a battle (presumably) in the finale. It’s a bit predictable (and now “The Tower” seems even more contrived as a means to an end).

That said, I enjoy the idea of self-inflicted wounds, because Weir took a morally questionable choice, and now it’s blown up in her face. It takes the story back into the kind of desperate territory that the series was supposed to address, and something that the links to Earth this season may have stripped away. Weir didn’t play it safe this time around, and if anything, the entire team let their defenses down, with the exception of Ronon.

What I like about this is the dangerous quality of the choice. Weir and the team conducted a biological experiment against the will of the subject. It’s morally ambiguous at best and a war crime at worst, especially since the ultimate goal would be to generate a biological weapon to eliminate the enemy. As it is, one cannot predict how Michael’s reintroduction will affect the Wraith. Michael has a lot of reason to hate the humans, but he also seemed unable to treat them as prey anymore.

In a lot of ways, Ronon was the weak link of the plan, and Weir should have done something to keep him away from Michael. If it wasn’t for his hostility, would Michael have tried to uncover the truth so quickly? For that matter, this is where the self-inflicted wounds come into play: it was far too easy for Michael to find the record of his conversion. It’s as if the experiment came along before anyone was properly prepared to conduct it.

A larger question emerges: is the goal of wiping out the Wraith and making them into something more human really a good idea? Especially if the long-term effect would be unpredictable at best? What if the process ended with Wraith characteristics returning, but with the human appearance intact? Then the problem becomes much worse. Of course, it’s already worse, because the Wraith now have evidence that Atlantis is intact and the humans living there are close to finding a way to wipe out the Wraith, possibly for good. The Wraith have every reason to attack Atlantis regardless of internecine warfare, and while that’s a predictable direction going into the finale, I really like how they finally decided to get there.

nicholas
February 27th, 2006, 06:03 AM
"michael" was like watching the wizard of oz in reverse..
.. and humanizing the wraith made the distinction between the good guys and the bad guys gray-er than its ever been.

there have got to be consequences for the genetic experiment somewhere down the line dont there?

vaberella
February 27th, 2006, 07:16 AM
"michael" was like watching the wizard of oz in reverse..
.. and humanizing the wraith made the distinction between the good guys and the bad guys gray-er than its ever been.

there have got to be consequences for the genetic experiment somewhere down the line dont there?


It doesn't seem there will be. I think even Caldwell is in agreement with this decision. The problem is earthlings are doing what earthlings do best, we conquer and if your different from us you either are elminated or clustered in some place to die. To them the wraith is the ultimate threat and their God complex played means nothing. They forget the laws of evolution they just see evil because they could be on the next menu. And that goes for any alien race who may feel threatened by these guys. So again no consequences the dillemma is then on their own personal moral codes.

GatetheWay
February 27th, 2006, 08:28 AM
The whole "Wraith aren't evil because they have to eat to survive" bit as never flown true for me. The Wraith are smart enough that if they truely didn't want to eat humans they could find another way.

Liam Kincaid
February 27th, 2006, 08:39 AM
Why not. Voyager did it with 7 of 9 who used to be a borg.


It's different, isn't it? The Borg are not really a species,are they? Aren't all Borg (or most of them) members of other species who have been assimilated into the collective by implanting the Borg devices in them? So 7 of 9 was merely restored to her original condition. But what they did to Michael was something else.