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    Why is CGI so expensive?

    I have been thinking about this for a while.

    We know how much an EP of SG-1 & SGA roughly costs per show.

    Then there is the big box office hits that cost upwards of 100m to make.

    Admitedly, I know nothing about using all the SFX software etc. However still can't see why it would cost so much.

    Say for example we take the battle over Antartica in 'The Lost city II'.

    The have the SFX guys, the computer equipment & all the necessary software.

    Taking out the human element (actors/propers) in it & solely concentrating on the CGI scenes. It may take ages to refine it to a believeable standard on the human eye but can't see why it costs so much.

    However could someone plese enlighten me as to why it does cost so much to create?

    Thanks..

    #2
    Originally posted by Wraith_Hunter
    Taking out the human element (actors/propers) in it & solely concentrating on the CGI scenes. It may take ages to refine it to a believeable standard on the human eye but can't see why it costs so much.

    However could someone plese enlighten me as to why it does cost so much to create?
    Because it takes ages to refine it to a believeable standard. There's only so much a computer can do in that regard. A lot of it is human creation, going through bit by bit to build it, make it look real, refine it, add changes, refine it some more, tweak a few things, refine it again... *shrug* Plus, it takes a lot of computing power to create and store all those images, to buy the software to do what you need, to INVENT the software when the programs fail, and to keep up to date with advances in the technology. I think Bruce Woloshyn said that the city of Atlantis alone takes up something like five or six terabytes of space. That's a LOT. And they're making new angles and new shots all the time- adding, tweaking, refining...

    I also heard someone say that there's no such thing as bad CGI- it's all to blame on the lack of budget.

    EDIT: Of course, I could be entirely wrong. Not like I know much about the process, other than what I've heard from Bruce and a couple of other people.
    Last edited by ShadowMaat; 10 December 2005, 07:48 PM.

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      #3
      Well, consider that the creation of a standard model for TV quality takes at least a solid week, for movie quality shots, even longer. Plus then you have to create the scenes, which again takes a long time, render it which again takes an hour render time per frame is around the ballpark for tv productions. Movies again longer.

      Plus you need all the hardware to create and store the files in the first place, which again are not realy cheap.

      But i think someday the day will come when the wuality is good enough and it will cost less then physical actors.

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        #4
        ahh thanks for that i was wondering about this too....
        tokra operative with sg-6 !!!
        yep a tokra on a sg team who wulda thunk??
        Character Name:Tok'ra-ragnor

        the mighty sg-6!!!

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          #5
          Your post was very enlightening, ShadowMaat. Thanks!
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            #6
            On a side note, the reason sg1 and sga graphics are so is down to them using cinimatic CGI which has a much higher polygon count, this makes the images seem smoother and their for much realistic. Obviosuly with more polydons it takes longer to animate, but if u notice when u fly around atlantis for example, it looks picture prefect, some shows cop out when it comes to cgi and goes for just passable, cannot think of anything off hand though!
            Good Evening, Good Nite, GOOD BEER!

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              #7
              ooh ooh this is SO my area of expertise

              why is CG so expensive? salaries

              CG artists probably have to work twice as hard as actors do, their hours are much longer believe it or not. not only do they need an insane amount of technical knowledge, but theyre required to be artists as well. like someone has already said, theres only so much a computer can do, the rest is the human component

              the post production team is usually as big, if not bigger, than the production crew who work onstage so thats a lot of people to pay

              but the main reason CG sucks up so much money is because it takes an unbelievable number of manhours to get a shot in

              and that battle over antarctica, thats probably one of the hardest things theyve ever done because it contains sooo many different plates its unimaginable how they managed to turn a shot over like that for series television

              if you want me to go into detail about how a shot like that breaks down then let me know because i wont go into it unless someones interested...its quite complex

              but basically, CG is a lot lot harder than most people think
              - Simon



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                #8
                lets hear it, why was antartica so hard? and which part?
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                  #9
                  There are alot of reasons why CG cost so much. For one thing, depending on what the producers wants and how big the budget is will determine alot. Software is not cheap. Lightwave and Maya along with a few compositing programs such as Inferno or Combustion will set you back about $15,000 or so. (Might have changed, havent checked in awhile), then there is the price for computers and of course a nice render farm. Rainmaker Studio uses Boxx Workstations (which I would love to have one) and im assuming Rainmaker has the upscale models which run from $2500 to $4000. Then you need a render farm. Without one, there would be no way to render out an animation in time.


                  Next, there is a huge amount of time that went into making atlantis and all the effects. The model of the city was huge and they spent over 1000 hours modeling and texturing it. Then once the modeling and texturing is done, it has to be sent over to compositing. There are many steps (and alot of layers) that go into a CG shot. Its not all done in one shot. Its a process.

                  There is always camera matching (tracking) that has to be done somtimes, which ive never done before, but im curious as to how its done because I would like to try it. Then theres the question of, "Who has great artist who know what they are doing?" Are these CG artist 5-year-olds with crayons, or are they professional people who know how to acheive the effect they are wanting? Bruce from Rainmaker said that Atlantis, once completed, came in around 4 million polygons. That is ALOT. I can personally confirm this because my atlantis model is at 1 million right now and it is already huge. Since its at 4 million poly's, I beleive that puts it into the catagory of "feature film" size.

                  Anyway, hope this makes sense.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by O'Neil
                    There is always camera matching (tracking) that has to be done somtimes, which ive never done before, but im curious as to how its done because I would like to try it.
                    wow camera matching, what a process. just the number of measurements taken onset will give anyone a headache! though for that antartic fight scene i dont think any tracking took place, i think its all cg with a matte painting, but i havent watched lost city in a while so ill have to check

                    you're forgetting the painstaking job of the roto artists, i envy those guys because they must have so much patience and talent, but roto is such a long tedious process

                    ill do a shot breakdown for everyone later, well, ill break it down the best way I can, obviously i have no clue exactly how JT and the team did it, there are always different methods
                    - Simon



                    "Life. Its far more important than what you do for a living" - RDA

                    "It's crazy cool!" - AT

                    My Site: www.Glass-Prison.com

                    (Update: GABIT AT2 Convention report uploaded)

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                      #11
                      Oh yes, rotoscoping. I forgot about that. Trying to rotoscope a lightsaber frame by frame is a major pain in the butt! Ive rotoscoped a few things, but they were small short and easy.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by O'Neil
                        There are alot of reasons why CG cost so much. For one thing, depending on what the producers wants and how big the budget is will determine alot. Software is not cheap. Lightwave and Maya along with a few compositing programs such as Inferno or Combustion will set you back about $15,000 or so. (Might have changed, havent checked in awhile), then there is the price for computers and of course a nice render farm. Rainmaker Studio uses Boxx Workstations (which I would love to have one) and im assuming Rainmaker has the upscale models which run from $2500 to $4000. Then you need a render farm. Without one, there would be no way to render out an animation in time.
                        Some of the pricing here is a little low. The last Inferno suite put in where I work cost roughly $800,000.
                        From http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet...linkID=1977925
                        Pricing and availability

                        Manufacturers Suggested List Price for the Discreet visual effects systems are: inferno 5—$571,500; flame 8—$266,500; flint 8—$99,000. Actual system price will vary based on scalable configurations.
                        You won't be surprised to know we've started installing Flames, and packing in Combustions to do all the donkey work.

                        Originally posted by O'Neil
                        Oh yes, rotoscoping. I forgot about that. Trying to rotoscope a lightsaber frame by frame is a major pain in the butt! Ive rotoscoped a few things, but they were small short and easy.
                        I love rotoscoping.*

                        *may not be true.

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                          #13
                          CGI costs range from anything to:

                          CG Artists, programmers and specialists.

                          CGI hardware and software. Hardware can be anything from a SGI workstation to a essentially a stripped down super-computer. Software is anything in the run-of-the-mill professional CGI software library. Being that some CGI programs cost anywhere from $1,000 to $25,000 or even upwards of $100,000 for the professional industry programs, that's a fair chunk of change.

                          Time to create the CG images. Patience and rework are a CGI artist's two best friends in the CGI industry.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by smurf
                            Some of the pricing here is a little low. The last Inferno suite put in where I work cost roughly $800,000.
                            From http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet...linkID=1977925
                            You won't be surprised to know we've started installing Flames, and packing in Combustions to do all the donkey work.


                            I love rotoscoping.*

                            *may not be true.

                            Wow! I havent checked on pricing in a few years on the autodesk discreet stuff. Ive never used any of them though. I have just started with adobe after effects.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by O'Neil
                              Wow! I havent checked on pricing in a few years on the autodesk discreet stuff. Ive never used any of them though. I have just started with adobe after effects.
                              I do know that the low-end programs are around $800 to $4,500 bucks.

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