PDA

View Full Version : Critical Mass (213)



Pages : [1] 2

GateWorld
November 21st, 2005, 02:53 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/213.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/213.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/213.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none"><B>CRITICAL MASS</B></A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 213</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
When an operative of the Trust plants a bomb in Atlantis, the team must find a spy within their own ranks before the Wraith arrive and discover the city.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/213.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Liverpool_chicK
December 5th, 2005, 09:04 PM
BEWARE SOMEWHAT OF SPOILERS AHEAD... (well in a weird way)















I really believe that this one of the better episodes this season. And for a crossover it was pretty good. Too bad that we didnt see anyone from SG-1 other then Landry and Walter. Rachel sings really good. Plus the music was better in this episode since Raising. I think that the music may get a Gemini nod next year. Oh and the Gou'ld have reached Atlantis, via the Trust, who would have thunk that. It was nice to see Tayla's people again. I did get a laugh out of Zelenka and his gang from when they return back from the planet in Childhood's End. Adults should know that children, paint and adults letting them; do not go together PERIOD.

TOA
December 5th, 2005, 09:23 PM
BEWARE SOMEWHAT OF SPOILERS AHEAD... (well in a weird way)















I really believe that this one of the better episodes this season. And for a crossover it was pretty good. Too bad that we didnt see anyone from SG-1 other then Landry and Walter. Rachel sings really good. Plus the music was better in this episode since Raising. I think that the music may get a Gemini nod next year. Oh and the Gou'ld have reached Atlantis, via the Trust, who would have thunk that. It was nice to see Tayla's people again. I did get a laugh out of Zelenka and his gang from when they return back from the planet in Childhood's End. Adults should know that children, paint and adults letting them; do not go together PERIOD.

I have to agree. This was a good episode - much more so than the last two in fact.

This episode had 3 really big plus components in it:
1) Sensitive pony tail guy - aka Kavangh - and once again he *****ed out Weir :) And then he passed out at the mere sight of Ronon. hehehehe
2) Hermiod - Im really thinking we could / should have an asgard centric spin off. Stargate: Asgard. As an added bonus Hermiod dislikes Kavangh even more than the rest of us! And he told him to shut up!!!! I love Hermiod!!!
3) Zelenka in war paint - but no cursing in chec. He needs to do that more!

Other bonuses:
1) Cadman & Mckay and their infinite harmony issue. Really Im thinking they need to get trapped in the ocean together for a while.
2) Mckay was all Mckay like as usual :)
3) Some Athosian action
4) Some Earth action in the form of Walter and Landry

Negatives:
1) Caldwell isnt the best Goauld... He's really not Goauldy enough - he needs to threaten more. "Your people will all suffer your gods wrath" type stuff was definitely missing.
2) Like the last 2 episodes this one felt a tad rushed, but not nearly to the extent of Epiphany or The Hive.

All in all this was a good going on great episode. After the last two I really needed a decent episode.

aAnubiSs
December 6th, 2005, 01:02 AM
Great episode. Would be much better as a 90-min instead of 60-min. TPTB should start to make all episodes 90min instead of 60.

Franklyn Blaze
December 6th, 2005, 01:09 AM
Great episode. Would be much better as a 90-min instead of 60-min. TPTB should start to make all episodes 90min instead of 60.

I agree, it's kind of like The Lord of the Rings (you guys all saw that that right? :D) it was more of a complete story when you got just a little more from the extended version. I'd REALLY want the dvd set if each episode had 10 or 15 extra mins of story.

Question: What's the brand of Weir's computer? I didn't know dell made a tablet like that one.

Wraith_Hunter
December 6th, 2005, 02:54 AM
One of the better eps of this season.

Thought Epiphany was one of the worst so far & so good to see it raising it's bar back up again.

Hermiod was cool as usual & would really love to see him feature far more regularly. Chop a human cast member & use their salary to pay for his anamatronics & CGI.

The pony tail git, I really dested in Letters from Pegasus but have to admit I actually kinda liked him in this episode.

I'd have to agree with the others, there was too much going on in such a short period of time & would have been far better as a two-parter. Where they could have shown the Wraith perhaps enter the atmosphere & check things out first hand themselves for a change.

The only real negative point was the final outcome. They find out about Caldwell in the last few mins, give him a punch & a throw. Use a Taser & get the code. It would have been better to prolong it for a little longer & so again would have been my recommendation for a two-parter. They could have cut Epiphany & stuck in the other part of this.

Overall though, a pretty good episode & certainly a vast improvement ovewr Epiphany. So I'd give it 3 out of 5.

Beal
December 6th, 2005, 04:50 AM
Best.SGA.Ever

caty
December 6th, 2005, 05:11 AM
I just LOVED this episode, really.

Would have been great as the mid season two-parter, as in this episode, there was far more tension and excitement as in Lost Boys/Hive combined!
I found myself sitting there not being able to take my eyes off the screen and I haven't done that awhile (Conversion was the last :D )

They also wrapped it up pretty good at the end, with Teyla singing in the background while the others thought Atlantis would be destoryed.

Since I am a huge LOTR fan, I was thrilled it got a mention and that scene on earth was very funny, too. The whole singing scene also reminded me of LOTR, Rachels voice is very similar to that of Annie Lennox who sang the LOTR theme song. (Respect, Rachel!!)

The whole "give me 10 minutes with him" speech reminded me too much of one 'Lost' episode though... Hilarious that Kavanaugh fainted, ILMAO!!!

A big positive was the Athosian action, although this episode was already so full, it might have fit in better with another eppy.
I'm glad we finally got to peek a little into Teyla's character and Rachel really convinced me, too (great acting).

The conversation between Weir and Kavanaugh was very intense!

Rodney and Sheppard interaction as usual hilarious..

Sheppard and Weir are really starting to get pretty close and I thought the ending was well done. They were no more words necessary!

Only a few things I didn't like about this ep:

Ronon - don't get me wrong, I like him, but he just seemed out of place most of the time, only standing in the background.

It was sad that none of Teyla's closest friends on Atlantis (namely Elizabeth, Ronon or Sheppard) were there for her when the most important person in her life dies. I mean, I understand that there was hardly any time before the city was safe, but they could have added a scene were they were all watching DVD or just spending time together at the end´, showing her that they were there for her! The way they wrote this, no wonder she feels alone!

Overall... I give it 4.8 out of 5:D

macktheknife
December 6th, 2005, 05:16 AM
I really really hate characters singing. I just hate it. Especially when they seem to be backed by a full orchestra :rolleyes:

The ending was rushed, the whole cadman\mckay thing was jarring compared to Duet, do they really hate each other now? Does'nt make that much sense to me, and neither does Caldwell as a goauld. Almost anything athosian = boring. And cadman in essentially a "grodin (but with more screen time)" role just seems pointless. She's suddenly a super expert on atlantean computer systems?

The last "awesome" ep was Aurora, and the last one before that was "Duet", and most of ep's in between have been pretty bleh, when compared to SG1 which has been going strength to strength, Atlantis is definately not as good this year. When will Atlantis have their "prototype", their exceptional stand alone episode?

They also "pulled" the punches regarding Kavangah. She orders the torture, but does'nt have to face the reality of what she ordered, because it never happened, I really doubt ronon would just sit there and go "oh well, he fainted, no access code, bye bye atlantis\life".

Another dissapointing episode.

GateMan2000
December 6th, 2005, 05:40 AM
I just watch the episode this morning. I have to say that is wasn't bad. One of the better SGA eps I have seen this season. I liked the crossover part to. I agree that crossover shouldn't happen that often but on some occasions, it’s ok :)

Blue Banrigh
December 6th, 2005, 05:46 AM
I really liked the majority of the episode.

Bonus points for Agent Barrett, Hermoid, Lt Cadman and Dr Lee. I loved the conference room scene with Dr Lee and his examples. And Dr Zelenka with the kids. :D

The bits with Kavanaugh's questioning was good. Especially liked how Elizabeth acknowledged that she crossed the line when she gave Ronon permission to torture him.

I thought they were joking with the Stargate: Musical. :p I liked the instrumental, provided nice background music. The singing I'm less sure about, feels odd.

The Athosian bits felt a bit superfluous, I kinda wanted them to get back to the ticking time bomb.

Agent_Dark
December 6th, 2005, 06:34 AM
Very, very good episode :D One of the best this season so far :D Ok, summary coming up (beware, there is a very big spoiler for this episode at the end. But this is the spoiler thread ;))

We open the episdode with Zelenka packing some gear in the gateroom, not looking very happy. He's of to M7G-whatever it is (planet from Childhood's End, with the kids) to take a look over their EM field generator. Apparently McKay has decided that Zelenka is the best man for the job, knowing full well what the children are like on that planet. And Zelenka is kinda pissed at McKay :D
Anyway, up in the control room McKay shows Weir some data from the long range sensors. Two Wraith Cruisers are going past the neighbourhood, and McKay has detected high energy bursts going back and forth between them. McKay thinks that the cruisers are actually trading shots with each other, and that the Wraith are actually doing some serious infighting.

Here we cut to Cheyenne Mountain, where Landry rushes into the breifing room. Agent Barrett from the NID is there and informs Landry that they have recieved intel that a Trust agent has planted a bomb on Atlantis that is set to detonate from a trigger on Earth when Atlantis dials on their next scheduled contact. End of the teaser.

Come back to the Briefing Room at the SGC and Landry and Barrett are informing Dr. Lee of the situation. They need a way to contact Atlantis and tell them there is bomb on the city, and not to dial Earth. Of course, Earth can't dial Atlantis anyway but the Deadalus is conviently returning to Earth on its regular schedule however it is still too far out to contact.

On Atlantis, McKay is telling Sheppard what's going on todays contact report with Earth when they run into Lt. Cadman (the chick from Duet). Seems McKay still has a few issues with her (got UST? ;))
The infirmary now, and Teyla approaches Beckett with a request to go to the Mainland. Turns Charlin (the old lady that Teyla spoke to in The Gift) has fallen ill, and Teyla wants to know if Beckett will take a look at her, and he quickly agrees.

At the SGC, Dr. Lee has come up with a plan to contact Earth. Send a science team to a planet on the outer edges of the Milky Way and send a message from there to the Deadalus, who can relay it to Atlantis. There's an amusing joke about 101 Dalmations and Lord of the Rings in there (dogs relaying barks and the big bonfires that are lit to inform Rohan of Gondor's plight).
So aboard the Deddy, Caldwell gets the message. But Kavanaugh (he's back! :O) points out that they are too far away from Atlantis to send a message back and they wont be able to get back in range quick enough to inform 'Lantis before they dial Earth. Luckily Hermoid can modify the engines and gets some more speed out of them (and apparently Asgard get annoyed at Kavanaugh too ;))
So Atlantis is about to dial Earth (litterally about to press the button) when McKay gets the message and stops everything.
In Weir's office McKay proposes to disconnect the ZPM to stop anyone dialing Earth and Weir shuts down all gate activity (Zelenka's team is the only one offworld anyway). Weir and Sheppard hypothesise that the Trust want to blow up Atlantis to ensure that the Wraith never get to Earth or that the Trust operative may be working for the Goa'uld. Ronan of course has no idea what the Goa'uld are and Sheppard explains (apparently he's been doing some reading of SG mission reports, and is up to speed on at least the basics that have happened at the SGC).

Over at the mainland Teyla is speaking with Charlin who knows her time is near and wants Teyla to prepare the other Athosians for the Ring Ceremony. Dieing of natural causes is quite rare among the Athosians (because of the Wraith), and as such they have a ceremony for anyone who has the 'privelige'. Teyla is hesitant to start preparing for the death of the last person she considers family.

Another scene at the SGC with Landy and Barrett with Barrett explaining they raided a Trust warehouse and found out that the trigger is actually on the Atlantis side. And Carter got mentioned - yay :) Deadalus relays that message to Atlantis. Caldwell also sends a message back to Earth informing them that Weir wants the Deddy back at Atlantis to assist in the investigation.

At Atlantis, McKay and Cadman are working on some computers in the control room (and he finds out she's an explosive expert and that she can tapdance...) while Weir checks in with Sheppard and Ronan who are sweeping the city for bombs or other suspicous devices. Then the gate starts dialing by itself. It can't actually establish a connection to Earth (ZPM has been pulled) and McKay thinks the Trust agent had it automated as a backup if Atlantis didn't contact Earth on schedule. However he then notices that distress beacon had been actived (gate dialing automatically was a diversion) and that the 2 Wraith cruisers that were flying by earlier have turned around and are heading straight for Atlantis. However they can't figure out why the agent would want to draw the Wraith to Atlantis.

A little scene between Beckett and Teyla where Carson tells her that with the aid of a pacemaker, he could give Charlin a few more years. Teyla is quite relieved to hear that.

Landry's office, and Cheif Harriman aka CHEVRON GUY (WHOOHOOO!!!) walks in and informs Landry that the Deddy has gone back to Atlantis and that they are out of contact.

Now to Weir's office and she's looking through passenger manifests for the Deddy as Shep walks in. She's doesn't like the fact that they have to suspect one of their own. Shep raises the point that it could be someone on Atlantis as well, not just the Deddy. McKay comes in and names Lt. Cadman as a suspect (she's an explosive expert, just happened to be stay behind on Atlantis this time and she's always around when things happen). Shep disagrees saying she's one of his most trusted officers in his command. Cadman rocks up at that point to inform Weir that the Deddy has landed.
Walking through the Deddy, Caldwell tells Weir he wants to start the interrogations immedaitely. Weir shuts him down, saying that this falls under Atlantis jurisdictions.
Cut to a scene of Weir questioning Kavanaugh. He's fairly indignant that Weir would suspect him, commenting on how she has a personal grudge against him. Weir details some suspicous activities of his (requests to leave the city after the Seige, then a request to come back before he suddenly wanted to leave again - just before the whole bomb incident). Kavanaugh denies everything. He also has a little dig at Weir's command ('no need for the Trust to blow up Atlantis when Dr. Weir is command' (ie, she'll end up destroying it through poor command))

Over on the Mainland, Teyla is telling Charlin about how Dr. Beckett can give her a few more years. Charlin will have none of it, saying she is prepared to go. Teyla is saddened that when Charlin dies, she will be alone but Charlin tells Teyla that her people (the Athosians) are her family as well, and they will need Teyla's strength.

Weir is now questioning Dr. Novak (hiccup lady on the Deddy) who points the finger at Kavanaugh.

Over to the control room, McKay has figured out that there is no actual bomb. What the Trust agent has done is to override some failsafe mechanisms that govern power flow out of the ZPM, so that the ZPM will explode when a heavy use of it occurs. Like dialing another galaxy. Or like activating the cloak, which they will now need to hide from the Wraith cruisers that are en-route. Which is why the distress beacon got activated. The agent also put in some command codes to stop anyone from re-activating the failsafes. McKay thinks he can shut down some secondary systems so he can active the cloak, but stop the ZPM from overloading.

Weir tries to get some more info out of Kavanaugh, but hits a blank wall. In her office, Ronan offers his assistance in getting Kavanaugh to spill the beans (read torture). Weir and McKay are reluctant to resort to it, while Sheppard and Caldwell think its a good idea.

In the infirmary, Beckett and Teyla are by Charlin's bedside as she says her last goodbye to Teyla. Teyla is saddened by her passing, shedding some tears.

So the Wraith are on the way and they have no choice but to plug the ZPM in, activate the cloak and try and maintain power levels to stop the ZPM from overloading. So things are going well, until the City's inertial dampeners (part of its Star-Drive) turn on which causes power levels to spike rapidly. The ZPM is going to overload unless they can reactivate the failsafe mechanism. They start planning an evacuation of the City via the Deddy and puddle-jumpers. McKay points out that if they had the command codes, they could stop the overload in a couple of minutes. Weir relents, and gives Ronan the ok to use torture on Kavanaugh. This starts of the final (and best) scene.

Teyla and some Athosians are preparing Charlin for the Ring Ceremony. Beckett points out that they are about to evacuate, but Teyla knows this and will complete the ceremony then board the last puddle-jumpers. She's dressed in a formal dress that looks quite splendid on her :)
Some traditional Athosian music begins to play (think native, stringed and wind instruments) and Teyla begins to sing for the ceremony. Cut to a montage (with Teyla's song still going) of McKay working to prevent the overload, Weir looking concerned in her office, the Wraith Cruisers approaching the planet. McKay looks glum as he announces 10 minutes to the overload and Cadman comes up to him and Weir saying she has found something. More shots of Teyla singing (Rachel Lutrell has a lovely voice), then one of Sheppard running to stop Ronan's interogation. Kavanaugh is unconcious on the ground as he fainted before Ronan could touch him :D

On the bridge of the Deddy, Caldwell informs Weir that he is ready to depart when he gets beamed down to Atlantis. He's confused and angry to find Sheppard and Weir who confront him and demand the access codes :eek: The something that Cadman found was Caldwell's authorisation code to access the City's operation system (to auto-dial the gate, activate inertial dampeners etc). Weir accuses him of working for the Trust at which point Caldwell's eyes flash. He's been Goa'ulded. Ronan gets into a little scuffle with Goa'uld and Sheppard pulls out a taser which he zaps the Goa'uld with. After a little while, he manages to repress the Goa'uld symbiote enough to bring Caldwell out (much like O'Neill did with a Zat to Skaara) who is able to give Sheppard the command codes. Sheppard rushes them to McKay, who is able reactive the failsafe mechnisms and stop the overload. The city stays cloaked and the Wraith Ships move off, none the wiser. And Teyla finishes her song :)

Some housekeeping at the end - Hermoid is making the final calculations to use the Asgard beam to beam the symbiote out of Caldwell (I remember someone a while ago wondering if that was possible - looks like that is ;)). Zelenka comes back extremely peeved off at McKay, as the children have braided his hair, coloured it and painted his face. McKay is smug :D
Then Weir at the end is torn over her descision to allow the torture (though it didn't actually happen) of Kavanaugh go ahead. Shep attempts to justify it, and then Weir closes the episode by remarking 'Here we are gloating over the in-fighting among the Wraith - how are we any different?'

And thats it, the end :) Now I'm going to bed 'cos I'm tired :P

AmaterazuSan
December 6th, 2005, 07:27 AM
CAn anyone translate Zelenka in the beginning of the ep?? I can send an avi clip if you want.

d3u5
December 6th, 2005, 07:57 AM
CAn anyone translate Zelenka in the beginning of the ep?? I can send an avi clip if you want.

"Ty vole, "Say hi to the kids for me", já ti dám. Ty seš takovou vůl."

"Idiot, "Pozdravuj ode mne děti", you'll catch it from me. You are such an idiot."

shockwave
December 6th, 2005, 08:05 AM
This episode was great, best ep of the season. The first Atlantis ep that completely satisfied me this year (there were a lot more previous year).

Well done Carl Binder

the B-plot with Teyla's grandma was boring, but I really liked the song.

dosed150
December 6th, 2005, 08:56 AM
i really enjoyed this episode like a mystery thriller i didnt suspect caldwell at all it was a nice twist did this remind anyone else of the ds9 episode in the pale moonlight how the leader has to cross a line for the greater good

Avreana
December 6th, 2005, 09:29 AM
I’m adding myself to the list of people that didn’t care for this episode (a small list so far it seems – I’m glad people enjoyed it)

Lets get the bad stuff out of the way first:

- The episode seemed really rushed and cobbled together. I didn’t really feel any sense of urgency and the scenes with SG Command and Teyla seemed tacked on. I think it could have been better if they did away with all that stuff and spent more time on the Trust/Gou’ld situation. I agree with the others that this probably would have been better as a 90 minute episode (but then wouldn’t they all :D)

- Rachel certainly has a beautiful voice, but I didn’t really enjoy the musical interlude. It came off as a bit cheezy to me.

- Cadman. I’m not sure why the producers went to the trouble to rewrite the part for her if they weren’t really going to use her for anything. It seemed like a wasted opportunity.

There were some bits that I did enjoy:

- Caldwell is the Gou’ld! Wow, that really surprised me. And I wonder how far back he was implanted? Considering the Deadalus was leaving Atlantis in the episode it must have been for a few months at least. Hopefully we get lots of follow-up on this.

- The bits with Zelenka at the beginning and end, hilarious!

- Kavanaugh. I love his character, I hope they bring him back more often.

So I overall I wasn’t too impressed with this episode. I must state, however, that I got up at 6am to watch it before I left for work. So I’m going to re-watch it when I get home and am a little more awake.

AmaterazuSan
December 6th, 2005, 10:13 AM
"Ty vole, "Say hi to the kids for me", já ti dám. Ty seš takovou vůl."

"Idiot, "Pozdravuj ode mne děti", you'll catch it from me. You are such an idiot."

Muchos gracias, Sir ;p

helio9
December 6th, 2005, 10:42 AM
I have to agree, this was a great episode. They were going for the style that the early seasons of the West Wing had mastered, the emotional appeal in the midst of chaos. They're not quite at that level, but nonetheless a great episode.

And again, Rachel Lutrell is a very talented singer. I was skeptical when I read that she's be singing, but wow, she's good.

AutumnDream
December 6th, 2005, 10:46 AM
Wow. Now that one had me captivated the whole time. I've been a strict proponent of "no earth interference", but I didn't mind this time. And since it looks like they fried the Daedalus hyperdrive, I wonder if we're going to be getting any more Earth - Atlantis trips for a while. Will Caldwell remain in control of the Daedalus once he's freed from the Goa'uld? Dr.Lee is hilarious. If there's a third spinoff, I hope he's the team's scientist. :D

So now the wraith know we're just sitting around hidden. Crap.

Very happy to see Zelenka. When Kavanaugh mention that Zelenka was offworld and it could be him, I was thinking, "If it's Zelenka and he has to be written off the show because of it, I'll stop watching! Okay, so I won't... but I'll be really mad!"

I actually liked Kavanaugh though. Well... liked as a character rather than personally. :p He was going toe-to-toe with Weir for a while there and it was great! I wonder if she's going to start having serious doubts about her leadership. I can see bad things in the future. >.>

Teyla was so great in this episode, acting wise. I'm a big fan of Sweet!Teyla. The singing part did seem pretty out of place to me. It would have been much more tasteful and subtle if the song hadn't been overdubbed. There should have been a few Athosians in the room just playing their instruments and Teyla singing in Ancient... and recorded right there in the room for a smaller, more ethnic feel. It would not have been as "grand" as they were trying to make it, but it would have been more beautiful and probably better fitting. It did have a slightly negative effect on the episode for me, good though Rachel was. It didn't sound like Teyla though, because of the voice differences. :p

I was hoping Caldwell's eyes weren't going to do the silly glowing thing but they did. Aww. No more Goa'uld in my city please. We have much cooler badguys to deal with. :D I felt so sorry for him after Shep tazered him up.

Ronon was cool, Weir was cool, McKay was cool... everyone was cool. ^_^

Great episode!

xfkirsten
December 6th, 2005, 10:56 AM
I loved this one! A lot of things that I loved, people have already mentioned:
-The tension between McKay and Cadman was great. I love that McKay is still weirded ut by the events of Duet. :D
-Loved the 101 Dalmations (I'm a Disney freak!) and LOTR mentions. I thought it was hilarious how he mentioned LOTR, and suddenly the scientists got the idea. ;)
-Kavanagh - the man I love to hate. He got some great scenes in this one. Being verbally shot down by an Asgard - how embarrassing! ;) I also love how he fainted, that was priceless. I thought it was great to see him get some real character opportunities in this one, to be put in the position where his past actions made him look like the bad guy when he really wasn't.
-Zelenka with the kids... I would so love to hear the story on that one!
-I thought the song was very pretty. Felt a bit out of place, maybe, but I did like how they used it as the background to the montage. Rachel has a gorgeous voice! The dub on it was pretty shoddy, though.

On a different note, though, I felt like this episode was another big step for Weir. We're really clearly seeing the changes she's starting to go through. I can't imagine her ever authorizing torture like that at the beginning of the series. She would have argued against it vehemently. And I absolutely loved that there was a scene at the end where she did reflect on what she did - it wasn't a "shouldn't have done that, oh well" kind of a deal. She was really genuinely upset about what she did. Loved that scene! And I also loved her little sparring matches with Kavanagh - he really fired some zingers at her! It seemed to me like those insults were really stinging her. She pulled back a bit when he said that, almost looking like she was hurt and trying to hide it. Despite the fact that those insults came from Kavanagh, that's still gotta hurt.

FireCat
December 6th, 2005, 11:25 AM
This was a very, very good episode, I was surprised with the Caldwell revelation, and it was good to see Hermy again, in all his glory, and anything with Zelenka is tops with me. As for Kavanagh, he has to return. He is SGA's Maybourne, or Kinsey, the guy you want to go over to and KICK!

The only downer was Rachel singing. While she has a lovely voice, it brought the pacing to a screetching halt. This episode had too much going on, and was too rushed to begin with, and it would have been better to have the "dying elder" scenes placed into a quieter episode where the singing scene would have been more appropriate (interspersed into a clip show, for example). Here it just seemed out of place. I do like Teyla, but this just wasn't the spot to showcase Rachel's other talents.

Overall, not too much to complain about. Carl Binder did another nice job. :)

Ouroboros
December 6th, 2005, 12:50 PM
I agree on the goodness of this episode. I especially liked the scene where Kavaneaugh told off Weir. He was 100% right and she pretty much knew it.

Some minor down points were

The Song: Nothing wrong with it aside from the fact that it went on a bit too long. That tense stuff with the Goa'uldified Caldwell and the city almost blowing up probably would have worked better without the happy midieval jubilee going on in the background. It was also kinda corny if you listened to the actual lyrics which I unfortunately did. Certainly no amazing grace. I'll let that slide though 'cause Luttrell did an ok job singing it. Who knew she could do that?

Kavanaugh fainted cop-out: Yeah ok so Weir gets to mitigate the consequences of ordering the guy tortured because the plot jumps in to save her by making it so he wasn't actually tortured for real. What was Ronan doing for the ten minutues he was in there, standing around scratching his head?

Things I liked

Kavenaugh telling off Weir as mentioned. I would rather Caldwell had eventually said it but it was nice somebody finally did.

No stupid deus ex machina McKay solution to get rid of the virus at the end like "I'll just reset the computers duh!"

Wraith cruisers not destroyed by returning Daedalus in another "humans are superior" wankoff. I was almost convinced that this was going to happen the minute they used cruisers instead of hiveships.

LotR reference that everybody suddenly gets after the dalmations one fails.

They actually think of using relay points to transmit the signal. This is downright intelligent!

Goa'uld plan to cause city to blow up was fairly clever and would have worked had the code not been given up. I wonder why even make a code to undo it all though. It's not like there's ever going to be a reason why he'd need one other than to cough it up if he was caught. If he'd just mashed the keyboard when it asked him for a new code Atlantis would have been screwed no matter how much they tortured him.

Easter Lily
December 6th, 2005, 12:57 PM
This episode demonstrates loudly and clearly why I prefer Atlantis-based episodes... the city itself just makes for such fascinating storytelling and the possibilities are still largely untapped. It also allows for much more emphasis on the team. Furthermore, it reminded me why Stargate and more particularly Atlantis is a favourite of mine.
I loved the pacing in this one... it was appropriate to the plot... the gradual sense of urgency was conveyed through movement around the city and crossing over to and from the SGC. The reference to LOTR (which, incidentally is my favourite scene from ROTK) while being hilarious was also interesting from the point of view of the idea of critical mass and chain reaction. I'm not a huge fan of Teyla generally but I liked the juxtaposition of the "singing" scenes with the rush to evacuate and to find the access code. It reminded me of another poignant "singing" moment in ROTK.

Great to see Cadman again. Nice to see her in body and being actively engaged in the solution. The banter between her and Rodney is priceless and seeing her walking and chatting with Beckett at the end was quite nice. I also liked Beckett's interaction with Teyla on this one... they really have such a wonderful rapport going. Interestingly, Beckett seems to have a terrific rapport with women perhaps it stems from his closeness with his mother. Nice piece of consistent character development.

Kavanagh strikes again... plenty of fodder there for the Weir/Kavanagh shippers here. :p The man we love to hate. The man who is in deathly fear of Ronon. Now, there's a new strategy to deal with him. Anytime he doesn't behave, just let Ronon loose on him. Well, he has only himself to blame for egging Weir on about not being tough enough.
Still, I'm glad to see that Weir was very uncomfortable with the decision to extract information from Kavanagh... "Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown". Torri did tell us that Weir would be forced to make some pretty dark decisions down the road and I'm pleased to see that they didn't shy away from that and the consequences of doing so.

Poor Zelenka... I just about died laughing... I wonder if he's busy thinking of new ways to get back at Rodney.

FINALLY... an episode that adds to the Athosian arc... ;)
FINALLY... some decent Teyla stuff without invoking the Wraith sensory angle.
Ah Carl Binder... you're the MAN!

Yeade
December 6th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Whee! Can't wait to see! :D

Since I haven't watched the episode yet, I don't have much to say, but I do have one comment about SG-1/SGA crossovers in general. I'm fine with it so long as TPTB do crossovers sparingly and as in this episode, i.e. to give the Atlantis expedition more headaches, and not so much to solve any troubles that might arise.

I think it's interesting to consider that problems on Earth might spill over into Atlantis, and it opens up a lot of dramatic plots. Just think of the possibilities! "Critical Mass" introduces the idea of infiltration and sabotage from Earth. In this case, the culprit was looking to destroy Atlantis and, as I understand it, neutralize the threat of the Wraith to the Milky Way. Suppose, instead, someone wanted the city for its wealth of technology and knowledge. Or saw the expedition as the perfect bargaining chip (read: hostage) to use against SGC. What if the war with the Ori heats up, and Earth loses contact with Atlantis?

Presto! Action! Suspense! Drama!

And all is good. ;)

Astrofighter
December 6th, 2005, 01:23 PM
My problem was her singing was clearly lip synched, it didn't look very good visually even if he she personally did sing it.

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 6th, 2005, 01:53 PM
This week's ep was a terrific whodunit with just the right blend of mystery humor and pathos to keep me riveted. Well done on bringing the totally unrelated b-plot into synch with the A-plot. Rachel Lutrel has a lovely singing voice. Her scenes really plucked at my heartstrings.

(My one nitpick)Pity that they couldn't have arranged the room better for sound, though. Lip-sync really took away from the serenity and the drama taking place. Also, there seemed way too much musical accompaniment given the situation (anybody musically inclined here able to say how many types of instruments were used?). A clear, unaccompanied voice would have been fantastic!

Loved having Novak and Hermy back! Novak/Weir was a great dash of humor after the intense Kavenaugh/Weir scene. I think all the characters played extremely well off each other and liked how they all interacted with more than one character. Once again, I applaud the PTB for involving the other members of the Atlantis/Daedaleus missions.

Caldwell as Goa'uld. Wow! Didn't see it coming. I was seriously worried that it'd be the tap-dancing bomb expert, Cadman, who had been Zatarc-ed by the Goa'uld. Whew! I hope this isn't goodbye for Caldwell.:( I think it has to be goodbye for Ponytail wussy guy. No balls, eh? heh, heh, heh. I don't see how he could stay on in Atlantis after this.

Overall, an ep that has me enthusiastic(unlike last week's). Keep it up! Thanks. :)

AlphaBlu
December 6th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Easily the best Atlantis ep since Runner and Siege III. One of the best they've done as well.

It had the SGC, it had a cast of reoccuring characters as long as my arm, it had suspence, everyone had something to do. It was great! And the song went really well over the ending.

Things that bugged me:

1. Cadman's hair. Admitedly she's much cuter with her hair like that than all tied up, but surley it's against regs for a female solider with hair that long to wear it that long, unless she was not currently on active duty.

2. Teyla singing. When the song first started I thought 'Oh no!', but that feeling quickly went away when I realised that the song scene wasn't a scene, it was a background piece to fit the ending of the episode, and suddenly the whole Teyla B (C?) plot had a point to it. What bugged me about the singing though was that it was so obviously dubbed. Dubbing is fine, but this looked, felt and sounded dubbed, which detracted from the bits when it cut back to Teyla (nice white dress notwithstanding).

Things I thought were great:

1. Zelenka. 'Nuff said.

2. Cadman, despite the hair, showing up again, and her having scene a scene with Beckett.

3. Kavanaugh. I love his character. Such an excellent 'close to home' bad guy. I really hope we see the repucussions of this between him and Weird episode later down the line. They might do it too. Kavanaugh showing up in Letters was a huge surprise, so TPTB obviously won't forget about him. The scenes between him and Weir were fantastic, and Hermiod telling him to shut up was great.

4. Agent Barret! He's the last person I expected to see on an episode of SGA. That was awesome.

5. Dr. Lee. I actually clapped after the 'Twilight Bark/LOTR' scene. Bill Dow is so good at that role. And I loved how everyone in the room instantly understoof what he meant when he used the LOTR analogy.

6. Landry and Harriman. Even if they only got one scene together, it was still good to see them on SGA.

7. More stuff for Teyla. As I said, I didn't really get the point of that plotline until the very end, but it worked and it gave some extra stuff for Teyla's character, which was needed.

8. Caldwell the Goa'uld! I did not see that coming. Moreover when Caldwell said 'What?' I actually said it at the same time. Even when Sheppherd pointed the gun at Caldwell I still couldn't bring myself to believe that Caldwell would be in leage with the trust, party because I just couldn't see him doing it and secondly because I like his character and didn't want him turned into a bad guy.

Then his eyes flashed.

And the music hit just the right notes at that point. Thankfully he seemed to be an unwitting participant in the day's events.

9. Hats off to Andy Makita, Brenton Spencer and the other production guys who made parts of the city look different this time around. It was a nicley put together episode.

10. The montage was great.

I'm just stoked about how good this episode was. I didn't mind Epiphany as it turned out to be different to what I expected (though could they have used a different set for Sheppherd's recovery than the exact same one that Mitchell used in Babylon), but this episode was fantastic.

And I'm really looking forward to Grace Under Pressure next week. Hopefully it'll live up to what I'm hoping. It's been too long since McKay and Carter (imagined or otherwise) have been in a room together (Mobius doesn't count).

BYE

AutumnDream
December 6th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Hey, Cadman can have whatever hair she likes as long as Shep is in charge. ^_^ Military rules on Atlantis are pretty easy-going and different!

Yeah, I didn't suspect Caldwell either! I honestly didn't know who to suspect. I STILL didn't get it until a few seconds after they beamed him in. Geez... I must be getting slow in my old age.

I imagine Ronon was threatening Kavanagh or asking him a few more times before he started in on him. When Kav realized Ronon was gonna beat him up, he fainted. Or passed out. Whichever. :D

Teal'c
December 6th, 2005, 02:50 PM
This has just replaced Letters From Pegasus as my favourite Atlantis episode. Let's list off some points:

Secondary characters: Caldwell, Zelenka, Kavanagh, Cadman, Walter, Lee, Barrett, Novak, Hermiod and, of course, Chuck. It was marvellous.

The way they set up who you suspected was that you're to think it's Kavanagh, but then that's too obvious so it must be Cadman, but they might double that back to Kavanagh. Then there's Novak who was acting a little too Novak and thus could have been a Goa'uld. That stuck with me, I was convinced it was Novak, unless Carl & Brad wanted to pull some sort of tripple-loop red herring that not even Lost is capable of.

The reveal was perfect. I cringed at first when Teyla started singing, but the music was quite good, edge of the seat stuff I haven't had since Serenity. Then when Caldwell was beamed away I figured, "Oh, they must be telling him about Cadman's amazing discovery" but BAM! He's a freakin' Goa'uld! I did not suspect that at all. I take my hat off to Brad and Carl.

The Teyla storyline wasn't that interesting, but at least she has something to do. Everyone did, even Ronan with his Jack Bauer impression. Would have been better if Ronan has given him a couple of punchs to the gut.

The only thing that upsets me about the episode is that nothing is going to top this, Michael and Allies might come close, but seeing as how we're going to be left on a break with The Tower... yeah, I'll have to live off this until Lost comes back in January around the same time as Michael and Allies. Ooh, 24 will be back then too! :P

IMForeman
December 6th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Excellent episode. Tension, morality, and a genuine mystery. Teyla's song was fantastic, and they way they worked it in was extraordinary. 10/10.

-IMF

Scarym1
December 6th, 2005, 04:37 PM
Well I must say I really enjoyed this ep.:D :D

I liked the switching back and forth between Cheyenne Mountain and Atlantis. It was great to see Dr. Lee. I thought him mentioning that he had kids was cute. I found it suspenseful. I was hoping that Cavanaugh wasn't guilty. I thought that would have been too convenient. I thought Teyla's singing was awesome. I thought that the gouald being Caldwell was the best twist I had seen in ages. I never saw that coming. I was lying on the couch and as soon as that was revealed I just sat up and said "What?". I thought it was quite exciting.

I am glad I didn't have to wait until January for these eps.:cool:

James_the_Wraith_Sympathiser
December 6th, 2005, 04:47 PM
Yes this was a very good episode. ...because of but not limited to the following reasons:

- Kind of a mini SG-1 / Atlantis crossover
- We get a few more lines from Dr. Novak (what can I say...geek girls are sexy...and her nervousness is cute!)
- Hermiod - "Dr Kavanagh. Stop talking. Thank you." Pwned!!
- Lt. Laura Cadman...is HOT. I bet the reason McKay gets so annoyed with her is because it was her in his body, not the other way around :P
- Good plot, didn't think that Caldwell would be the Goa'uld...
- Dr. Lee explaining the 'twilight bark'....but then resorting to the Lord of the Rings explanation! as an LOTR fan I was very pleased to see that :D
- Interesting that a Goa'uld can apparently be removed from a host by using the Asgard transport beam (albeit an Asgard needs to calculate the exact location in the body)

All in all I think this has probably been one of the best this season, along with Duet and Aurora.

Jonzey
December 6th, 2005, 04:50 PM
I loved the episode. I loved all the secondary characters they brought back. I loved the twist. I loved the song.

I was thinking continuosuly throughout the episode ''It better not be Cadman who's the spy. That would be so predictable''. Then I thought ''If they really wanted a twist, they would make Skinner the spy''. And BOOM! They did. And they made him a goa'uld, which I did not expect.

Now we know why the Daedelus returned to Atlantis before getting the reply from the SGC...

Gaterholic
December 6th, 2005, 05:05 PM
I loved this one.
was it rushed, and might have done better as a 2 parter? sure, but it was still great.
I was guessing the whole time, and super suprised at the end.

I actually liked the singing, although i will agree it was out of place. i was wondering what the point of the subplot was the whole time.
I guess they want to free up their style freedom early, so they don't get stuck like sg1. sg1 is great, but they got the show down pat, the would never sing.
Doing this open the show up for other types of things.... Think buffy.

Great show.

Notice how i didnt spoil anything in this post!

I think im getting back into this forum thing again.

White Knight
December 6th, 2005, 07:04 PM
Great, great episode.
- McKay and Cadman were hilarious.
- Seeing Kavanaugh was a suprise. In the GateWorld description of this episode, it doesn't list him. I'm thinking that the Seagle part was divied up between Cadman and Kavanaugh (yay for returning characters!).
- Liked the subtle undertones that were brought forward at the end about infighting.
- I honestly didn't expect Caldwell to be the Goa'uld, and I'm glad that he didn't do the "Bow down before your God" bit 'cause that's pointless now. Just think of the ramifications of Caldwell as the Goa'uld; they were gonna put him in charge of Atlantis. :S
- Cadman/Beckett. This ship I can get behind, since it felt more natural and less forced than any of the others we've seen.
- Singing Teyla. Looks like Joe Flanigan was a little off in his guess.
- I look forward to the next episode by Carl Binder.
- I was suprised at how much SGC stuff there was. I thought it'd be more like the end of Letters From Pegasus, not several long scenes of Landry, Barrett and Lee.
- Lee's explanation of how they're gonna communicate with Atlantis. He mentions Lord of the Rings and suddenly everyone gets it. :D
- The plan to blow up the city was pretty good and pretty logical, unlike some other plans we've seen to blow things up.
- Kavanaugh's reaction to Ronon.
- But most of all, everyone had something to do that furthered the story.
- Some of Kavanaugh's lines ("I don't have any friends!")

The one thing I disliked; I was fully expecting Weir to slap Kavanaugh's ass down for what he was saying in the interrogation, and I was disappointed when she didn't. Oh well, maybe next time.

Gaterholic
December 6th, 2005, 07:14 PM
Well, when do you all thing he was goa'ulded? and how!
I'm assuming sometime between the last episode and this, otherwise his other actions don't make sense....

Will he be back?
I know there is no reason NOT to put him back in command, but you know the military.. he's been compromised, so who knows.

I think it will come down to how popular the character is. It would be an interesting add on to the character, there are no former goa'ulds on the show, they seemed to lean away from that.

ToasterOnFire
December 6th, 2005, 07:18 PM
My my, the second half is shaping up to be much better than the first! This was one of the better episodes I've seen in a while. Great plot, everything flowed nicely, and I loved seeing all the returning characters.


...but of course I have to nitpick things. It's what I do. :D :rolleyes:

-While I really liked the tension throughout the show, I agree with others who have stated it seemed a bit rushed. Not as rushed as Hive at least, but still somewhat squashed. The whole discussion about the bomb and its tie-in to the ZPM went by way too fast for me.

-I liked the smart idea for the relay system to send a message to Atlantis and how Rodney and the others kept on unraveling the intricacies of the spy's plan. Nice to see that the spy is no dummy.

-I hate to admit this, but the secondary story didn't really tie into the A plot and actually may have been the reason why the main plot felt rushed. It's so frustrating because I really enjoy watching Teyla (especially when she's not with Ronan), seeing Beckett have some screentime, and getting to know the Athosians better. I've been wanting to see all three for quite some time now, but I think that their story would have been better suited to another episode. Epiphany, perhaps?

-Rachel does have a lovely voice, but sadly I didn't really care much for the song (would have been better in another language) and thought that the voiceover didn't really fit with what was going on onscreen.

-I accidentally spoiled myself in advance so I knew Caldwell was the spy. Watching with that knowledge, I was surprised at how the camera angles, music, and script didn't even hint at him. If anything, there were more hints for Cadman. Well done.

-I was rather confused with how Elizabeth knew about the Trust infiltration. Was that briefed to her while she was on Earth? Was it in the message somehow? Did I miss something or was it a plot hole?

-I loved the plot continuity in this ep. Zelenka going to see the kids in Childhood's End (and the result, bwa! :D). Novak and Hermiod. Cadman. Kav. Teyla's "grandmother". That sort of stuff is exactly what I want to see with Atlantis and I hope it keeps up.

-Cadman seemed toned down this ep, which is just fine with me. I did enjoy seeing Rodney squirm. :D However, like someone mentioned earlier, I'm still unsure as to why she was added in place of that new female scientist.

-What can I say, I like Kav. :D I like how he isn't portrayed as the cackling villian out to get everyone - he has some honest concerns with Atlantis and Weir. And he's a smart cookie too and thinks well on his feet. I hope we see him again.

-I was actually hoping that Ronan did torture Kav so Elizabeth, Caldwell, and Shep would have to truly deal with the consequences. Having him saved in just the nick of time brushed everything under the rug. Oh well, I have to remind myself that while Atlantis may claim to be darker than SG1, it has nothing on BSG.

-(Did anyone else notice that the two people who have questioned the authority of Shep and Weir the most - Kav and Caldwell - had rather unpleasant things happen to them in this episode? Hmmm...)

macktheknife
December 6th, 2005, 08:08 PM
I think if they really went through with the torture, then you almost have to get rid of kavanagh. Because he would'nt stay there after being tortured would he?

Giantevilhead
December 6th, 2005, 08:11 PM
I think that the Athosian stuff should have been cut and they should have focused more on the sabotage and Hermiod should have done more.

I wonder how much Goa'uld knowledge Caldwell will retain after the symbiote is removed.

White Knight
December 6th, 2005, 08:13 PM
If the symbiote is removed without killing him.


I think if they really went through with the torture, then you almost have to get rid of kavanagh. Because he would'nt stay there after being tortured would he?
Kavanaugh wasn't staying anyway. He left straight after the Siege, returned a few weeks ago, and was returning to Earth again when the Daedalus was turned around to tranmit the SGC's message. He didn't plan to stay on Atlantis or return at some point.
However, one question remains unanswered; in Kavanaugh's interrogation, Weir said that he sent unauthorised data bursts from the Daedalus after the SGC's message was forwarded, but before the Daedalus returned. He himself admitted that he had no friends, so what was he transmitting, and who was he transmitting to?

Nothlit
December 6th, 2005, 08:45 PM
I must be in the minority here because I was totally unimpressed by this episode. The only good thing was Teyla's song. The rest felt horribly contrived, terribly rushed, and just generally unbelievable.

Stargate Command has known about the Trust for how long now, and they just decided to get around to raiding their computers?

We've had no inkling that Caldwell was a Goa'uld. In fact, it seems the writers themselves just decided he would be infested for this episode so that once they get it out of him, he can continue his passive-agressive flirtations with Weir.

The hand quivering inches above the DHD as Rodney shouts "STOP!" Most horrible attempt at suspense ever.

And as someone else said earlier: anything Athosian = boring. As bad as it may sound, I couldn't have cared less about that old woman. What was the point? It felt like they were just trying to cram yet another plot point into this episode. Maybe if we had known her for several episodes as a sympathetic character, but no...they just dropped her in this episode and expected us to believe the emotions surrounding her death.

Speaking of cramming, is it just me, or did they get virtually every Atlantis character into this episode in one way or another? For some reason that was really grating to me as well. Like they were trying too hard. Maybe that's why the episode was called "Critical Mass". (I was halfway expecting to see a scene on board one of the Wraith cruisers with Ford duking it out. Heck, it wouldn't have made things much worse.)

And if Goa'uld!Caldwell was so hell-bent on destroying Atlantis, why in the world would he have built in an access code to disable the destruct mechanism? Seems like the writers couldn't come up with a good answer to that question either, so they just ignored it and hoped nobody would notice.

The dialog was forced (except McKay...David Hewlett is just a fantastic actor). The situations were contrived, and the threat was never very suspenseful. To me, it felt like Wright, Cooper, et al. must have let their high school children produce this episode for a class project... :(

C'mon guys, you can do better. This was more like a "Critical Mess". I do love Atlantis, so I really hope this episode was just a fluke.

macktheknife
December 6th, 2005, 09:18 PM
If the symbiote is removed without killing him.


Kavanaugh wasn't staying anyway. He left straight after the Siege, returned a few weeks ago, and was returning to Earth again when the Daedalus was turned around to tranmit the SGC's message. He didn't plan to stay on Atlantis or return at some point.

I mean, his torture basically will remove him from the show completely, I don't see how they could keep him at all anywhere near atlantis if it happened. No coming back at all, except maybe in some "What naughty things Weir has done" (and no, I don't mean Sheppard in a storage closet).

Maybe the athosians will get wiped out sometime. So instead of having to waste screen time on evacuations each time something threatens atlantis, they can just stay with the story.

GatetheWay
December 6th, 2005, 09:45 PM
They couldn't of possibly of done the torture thing. Weir would of probably lost her command. It could of only of worked if (1) Kavanagh really was the spy or (2) Atlantis was completely cut off from Earth again so there could not be any immeddiate repercusions from the SGC.

oh, and minor Long Goodbye Caldwell does return to Atlantis after being degouald. I was reading the spoilers for LG when they mentioned that about Caldwell therefore ruining Critical Mass for me. :(

spirited Chihiro
December 6th, 2005, 09:48 PM
Is there a way to listen to Teyla's song? Except for waiting to see the episode?

macktheknife
December 6th, 2005, 09:53 PM
Is there a way to listen to Teyla's song? Except for waiting to see the episode?

I'll work on taking it from the episode. Not promising anything.

EDIT - Yeah, I should have this done in about 15 mins.

starfox
December 6th, 2005, 10:06 PM
-Rachel does have a lovely voice, but sadly I didn't really care much for the song (would have been better in another language) and thought that the voiceover didn't really fit with what was going on onscreen.

I agree that the song would have been better in another language. At that point, pretty much anything she sang in English would have sounded perhaps overdramatic and just...off. With words we can't understand, we could have focused on the tone of the music and it might have fit the scene better (although come to think of it, "Beyond the Night" at a dark moment - realizing one of their own is a spy - is somewhat appropriate).


I accidentally spoiled myself for the Caldwell reveal (seriously, don't read the New Atlantis summaries unless you want all the fun twists ahead of time), but it actually worked for me, because if you watch the ep knowing that it's Caldwell, then you can see how some of the things he does an certain inflections at certain moments fit with the spy role. So, good job, Mitch.


What was the make-up artist thinking here? Cadman is very much overdone in this ep; tone down the shadow, please.


Carson-Teyla interaction, yay! I loved the fact that we got to see more of Teyla's character in this ep, and that we saw Carson sticking to his oath. Great job on both Rachel and Paul's parts.


Someone wanna write me Weir/Kavanaugh fic from that interrogation scene? Okay, just kidding (really), but I wouldn't be surprised if some pops up. Honestly, there was way more animosity there than can be explained by their interaction and relations with each other as shown thus far in the series.


And I really need to be in bed now, so catch y'all later.

Whatazarian
December 6th, 2005, 10:15 PM
Excellent episode, just about everyone had a purpose in this episode and the drama was just so good.

The only problem I have was the fact that Caldwell got owned easily by Ronon.

Quinn Mallory
December 6th, 2005, 10:16 PM
Awesome episode. The Athosian (sp?) B story was a bit distracting. Rachal's singing was good but I'm not sure if I feel much for that story since, to me at least, that story is so minor compared to the A story of the episode.

I guess Col. Caldwell is still going to be a recurring character on the show. I guess he was duped by the Trust rather than being a member of it since the beginning (but how did the Atlantis team really know this?).

Good to see Landry, Walter, Dr. Lee, and Agent Barret doing the crossover thing from SG-1.

I was questioning Dr. Weir's decision to have the Daedalus back, however. I guess it's possible that the message from the SGC may had been tempered with (although this is not so plausible) as to have deleted the part where the SGC was still uncovering more intel about the mole.

DragonGate
December 6th, 2005, 10:22 PM
I guess Col. Caldwell is still going to be a recurring character on the show. I guess he was duped by the Trust rather than being a member of it since the beginning (but how did the Atlantis team really know this?).

Caldwell never voluntarily worked for the Trust, he was infested with a Goa'uld.

macktheknife
December 6th, 2005, 10:32 PM
http://files.filefront.com/TeylaSongmp3/;4439401;;/fileinfo.html

3.68mb, MP3 format.

I've taken pretty much any talking out of it, and crossfaded the parts where other parts have been taken out, so there is a touch of strangness in some parts

Hatcheter
December 6th, 2005, 11:31 PM
Hey, Cadman can have whatever hair she likes as long as Shep is in charge. ^_^ Military rules on Atlantis are pretty easy-going and different!

Sheppard's haircut is pretty far from regulation, so I doubt that he has a problem with his subordinants having some freedom in what they do. Last season, I read a bunch of complaints that the Marines in Atlantis weren't as neatly trimmed as real Marines are.:rolleyes:

Personally, I thought Cadman didn't really come across as a Marine. But hey, she's a bomb technician, and a computer expert, so her value to the military isn't based on her on marching proficiency.

So, can we dub her Carter-lite? ;)

Dorka
December 7th, 2005, 12:27 AM
Awww, I love this episode! I even don't know where to start why I liked it :D

We saw more of Teyla...It was very nicely done, and I'm sooo in LOVE with this song :D It fit's so well into the last part! I liked Carson, how he tried to help Teyla...he's a very nice men, and somehow thus, she wasn't as alone as she thought :D

Kavanagh vs. Weir, I like this constellation...but hate this Kav-guy...I didn't thought I can hate him more, but with this, he prooved that I can *g* Poor Elizabeth seemed really a little hurt after his reproching! Kavanagh is the guy, who don't even need a symbiont to do something like plant a bomb into Atlantis... even if he weren't it this time! I'm with Elizabeth, and would have suspected him in a heartbeat :D

Caldwell as a Goauld...priceless :D

Yeah, Ronon could hardly await to torture someone...this guy must find a new hobby like tennis or so :D

I loved the interaction between Liz and John at the end... He really tried to cheer her up with this Zelenka-story and reassure her, that she did the right thing... He's a nice guy too :D *kuddles John and Carson*

Zelenka hates kids...thats mean :( But I liked his new hairstyle :D

Easter Lily
December 7th, 2005, 12:27 AM
I think if they really went through with the torture, then you almost have to get rid of kavanagh. Because he would'nt stay there after being tortured would he?
I like the fact that Kavanagh fainted... it was a very Firefly/Joss Whedon sort of device... A bit of unexpected humour in a rather potentially dark situation. :D

Agent_Dark
December 7th, 2005, 02:27 AM
Speaking of Firefly, the very start of Teyla's song reminded me of music from that...

Blue Banrigh
December 7th, 2005, 02:28 AM
Speaking of Firefly, the very start of Teyla's song reminded me of music from that...
Reminded me more of BSG than Firefly.

Agent_Dark
December 7th, 2005, 02:35 AM
Reminded me more of BSG than Firefly.
Nah, definitely more Firefly'ish than BSG'ish imo ;)

Blue Banrigh
December 7th, 2005, 02:41 AM
Nah, definitely more Firefly'ish than BSG'ish imo ;)
Hmm..*goes back and listens* You're right, does sound Fireflyish. Ronon entering the conference room sounds more like BSG.

Anybody else notice the handheld camera when Weir decides to torture Kavanaugh?

Agent_Dark
December 7th, 2005, 03:14 AM
Anybody else notice the handheld camera when Weir decides to torture Kavanaugh?
Yeah, I noticed that too. Seemed kind of odd, considering there is very little obvious handheld work on Stargate. I wonder if they'd been watching BSG lately? ;)

Erised
December 7th, 2005, 03:39 AM
Such a great episode! One of the best methinks! :D I love the spin offs! Last time we saw Earth in real time was in "Home" and now we had so much time with Earth! :D Too bad they didn't show anyone from SG-1 though! :D

I thought Teyla's story was a bit out of place. I was looking for a reason they put that old lady in there! I actually thought she could be a goa'uld! LOl :D
Teyla has a nice voice. I really hate it when characters sing but she did really well! :D

The pony tail guy is really annoying! I hated him ever ssnse "Letters from Pegasus" No wonder he doesn't have any friends. He's a complaining machine! :S
Wasn't he in "Window of Opportunity" and was hitting Teal'c with a door in every loop? :D

Caldwell - a bit unexpected, I think. At first I thought that he could be but then I realized that he wouldn't be so happy to help Atlantis find the bomb...

Hey did I understand this right... electric shock disables Goa'uld for awhole? That's new. :D Or is it? lol.

I hope Dr.Weir wouldn't take the pony tail guy's words seriously! he's such an @ss!

Agent_Dark
December 7th, 2005, 04:20 AM
Hey did I understand this right... electric shock disables Goa'uld for awhole? That's new. :D Or is it? lol.

No, O'Neill did the same thing to Skaara in The Serpant's Lair with a Zat gun. Shep probably read about it in a mission report ;)

Willow'sCat
December 7th, 2005, 04:22 AM
So I was supposed to take this episode seriously? Sorry it was pantomime from start to finish. *look behind you!* :rolleyes: Cue over dramatic music! :cool:

The only saving grace was to see Weir finally be told the truth and I now love Kavanaugh. :p O.K I kind of don't hate him. ;)

Not one of the better episodes IMO shame as I had been looking forward to it, but at least next weeks should (I hope) make up for it. :)

rexpop
December 7th, 2005, 05:03 AM
A good episode. It would have been a great episode if they dropped the B plot and gave the A plot more room to breathe and ratchet up the tension a couple of notches. The B plot was great but would have worked better in a more introspective episode.

I hope they bring Cadman back as a recurring regular next season. She's a great foil for McKay and would be a great addition to the Atlantis team.

So far this season has been lots of good episodes but nothing that really stands out and grabs you like 'The Storm', 'The Eye' and 'The Defiant One' did this time last season, still plenty of time to improve on that.

Cynicat
December 7th, 2005, 05:10 AM
Speaking of Firefly, the very start of Teyla's song reminded me of music from that...

Wordy McWord. Greg Edmondson featured acoustic guitar very heavily in all of Firefly's incidental music, and the opening strains of the ceremony song were reminiscent of that. It was definately the first thing that popped into my mind lol.

I quite enjoyed this episode, though it did suffer from the same pacing problems that have dogged recent episodes - it seems SGA is straining a little at the 42min format. The plot was simplistic, but I think that was one of it's strengths. It was a fun puzzle/whodunnit episode, which featured logical solutions to the problems faced - yay! I must say, I do get tired of seeing magical (usually conveniently-discovered-ancient-tech) solutions pulled out of the air around minute 37 of an episode - it really strips all the tension out when you know that's what's going to happen, and thankfully this episode was different.

On to the random stream-of-consciousness:

- LOTR reference - very nice :D It's those kinds of popculture references that are one of the things I love about SG.

- Hermiod's "Dude, shut the ***** up." - priceless :D

- Gotta agree with Starfox - ease up on the makeup for Cadman, people! What is she? Miss USMC 2006?

- Some more great character moments: Zalenka's sulking, Shep & McKay's co-snarking at him, Carson continuing to be his lovely caring self, Ronon following Shep around like a shadow, McKay's "They're heeeeere...", and this exchange:
Weir (re: Kavanagh): "I'm having some difficulty with him though - he's not exactly the most co-operative of people..."
McKay: (offscreen) "Ooh, well, there's a shocker."
LMAO *hugs McKay's snarky self* I just adore that they don't actually cut to him, or even interrupt the camera move - McKay's snarking is just a part of the SGA-verse :D

- Great use of secondary characters, and excellent continuity regarding them. I don't think McKay actually hates Caldwell, I think she just makes him distinctly uncomfortable - he's got control issues, and she took that control away from him in "Duet", forced him outside his comfort zone. He still hasn't dealt with that. She vertainly doesn't hate him, he frustrates her, but she doesn't really seem to harbour any ill will towards him - notice she always refers to him as "Rodney", not "Dr McKay". I think that level of familiarity from her bothers him, "gets under his skin", as he mentions early in the episode.

- The downlighting on Teyla and the stained glass in the background gave the ceremony a very cathedral-y feel, nicely done.

- The sudden switch to handheld during the "to torture, or not to torture?" scene was an interesting choice, and would have worked nicely as a way to emphasise the tension in the scene if it hadn't been so sudden and unprecedented (in SGA). As it was, it felt out of place, and a little try-hard - SGA is still very much stuck in the Dramatic Zoom school of cinematography when it comes to tension *stabs the cliche with a spork*
McKay: "ZPM overload in 24 minutes." <-- A nod to 24's similar (though far more effective) use of handheld camerawork? Heheh

- During the ceremony scene, Beckett has blank grey panels zipped over the coloured panels on his jacket. YAY! I always figured that's what those zippers did :) now the question is, why?

- Nice Persian rug the Athosians had there.... :rolleyes:

- Ronon pacing behind Caldwell during his final interrogation - very nice, very caged-animal like :) Very Ronon.

- Shep holding the gun on Caldwell as Ronon goes medieval on his arse - watch him very closely just before the cut... either Shep is enjoying what's happening to Caldwell, or Flanigan is just about to crack up. Personally, I think it's the latter - his "serious face" is a little too serious, and the smirk is out of character for Shep given the situation IMHO. See what you think:
Mr Serious. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/Cynicat/cm_shepgun1.jpg)
Going... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/Cynicat/cm_shepgun2.jpg)
Going... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/Cynicat/cm_shepgun3.jpg)
Gone. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/Cynicat/cm_shepgun4.jpg)

- Nice fall by Pileggi's stuntie (hilarious baldcap/wig, if you care to freezeframe). He does hit the ground with his head facing Shep's feet, but starts a nice little spin to face the right way, heheh.

- Beckett & Cadman - awwwww! *hugs them*

- Zalenka's "makeover" - LMFAO :D

Oh, and Shep's "Ask them if they can give us a little more than 'There's a bomb in Atlantis'..." comment inspired this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/Cynicat/critical_memo.jpg

Wow...that was lengthy, wasn't it? I think it's the heat here, it's melting my brain. Hell, it's melted all the blue-tac on the posters on my walls, they've all fallen down :(

xfkirsten
December 7th, 2005, 08:28 AM
Speaking of Firefly, the very start of Teyla's song reminded me of music from that...

Ah!! I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one that thought that! As soon as the first strains of music played, I immediately thought, "Waitaminit... this isn't Firefly!" :D

berenikee
December 7th, 2005, 08:30 AM
Great episode :D
Together with Duet and Aurora one of the best of the second season.

dosed150
December 7th, 2005, 08:44 AM
does anyone have any ideas about who kavenagh is sending messages to?

i think it could be another nation on earth we havent had enough of the reactions of the other nations

prion
December 7th, 2005, 08:47 AM
Hey, Cadman can have whatever hair she likes as long as Shep is in charge. ^_^ Military rules on Atlantis are pretty easy-going and different!

Well, obviously Shep doesn't push for perfection. They're in an outpost so they're given some liberties, but whoa, ease up on the makeup! I barely recognized her!

Yeah, I didn't suspect Caldwell either! I honestly didn't know who to suspect. I STILL didn't get it until a few seconds after they beamed him in. Geez... I must be getting slow in my old age.

I loved his indignation, and Weir and Shep standing there, but mostly, Dex pacing behind him just waiting to beat the snot out of the guy. And he got too. You could see that Shep had done some research on Gou'ald as he brought along a taser so he woudn't have to shoot his superior officer full of holes. I hope Caldwell will recognize this in his report once he's been de-gou'alded.

I imagine Ronon was threatening Kavanagh or asking him a few more times before he started in on him. When Kav realized Ronon was gonna beat him up, he fainted. Or passed out. Whichever. :D

Ah, that was priceless. Shep runs in, thinking Dex has probably killed Kavanaugh (since everybody hates the guy) and he's mortified to see the scientist in the floor and poor Dex, looking deprived, says "he fainted". My god, Kavanagh will never be able to live that down. A beating, sure, maybe get some sympathy, but fainting ;) Dex probably just stared and him and said "I need some information" and then the scientist just went splat.

Loved the song Teyla song; it was best overlaid on all the scenes that didn't contain Teyla. Soudns odd, but the lip synching was off, and it seemed too music video-y at that point.

Zelenka with his new 'do'. Priceless. The man will never have kids after this experience!

Nice to see Agent Barrett is alive and well.

Glad to see hte SG1 segments were kept to a bare minimum. Now, I think an SG1 episode should have the SGA characters visit, just briefly. Tit for tat and all that.

Sorry to see Charon go. I liked her character.

Loved McKay's leeriness around Cadman and how Sheppard kept ribbing him about it.

Liked the development we see in Weir, giving orders to stuff she would never have done before. She was very hesitant to let anybody torture Kavanagh, even though she disliked him, but as the time ticked down ("24 minutes till we blow up" or words to those effect by Rodney) she agreed. And because they were down to 10 minutes with Caldwell, and because she knew that Caldwell was military but more importantly, inhabited by a Gou'ald, she just gave the nod but left the room. So she crossed the line with her own personal ethics, which I would interesting but good for development.

One thing for sure, Kavanagh ain't NEVER coming back to Atlantis!

Heaven
December 7th, 2005, 09:44 AM
great episode! very well done

I have to point out Ronon was exceptional on this one. he's the only new regular that didnt turn out to be complete disaster imo (and the one I least expected).

mckay-sheppard interaction.. always fun
hermiod telling kavanagh to stfu.. priceless ;)
beckett!!
great music
did anyone else catch Weir's bomb SPEEDTALK?!@ :eek:

only thing I didnt like was the earth scenes
and maybe they went a little cheap on the pc screens, usually they look much better

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
December 7th, 2005, 10:00 AM
Good episode

Barrett and Lee in the episode. Cadwell as a Goa'uld, that was weird.

And Kavanagh's first appearance this season.

Yeade
December 7th, 2005, 10:40 AM
Yay! I've watched! Not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said though. Hmm...

Re: The B-plot

As nice as it was to learn a bit more about Athosian culture, I have to admit the B-plot had me stumped. Not that SGA hasn't had two plotlines running side-by-side before--e.g. "Runner," "Duet," "Trinity"--but these were obviously related--Ronon and Ford on the run, socialization, and trust, respectively. What happened here?

I didn't twig to a connection until Kavanagh accused Weir of not having the strength to command Atlantis and, in the very next scene, Charin reminded Teyla she had to be strong for her people.

Ah-ha! Elizabeth and Teyla! The two (somewhat ineffectual) female leaders!

Both struggle leading their people--Weir probably isn't sure what she's doing half the time, and the arrival of the Atlanteans and her casting her lot in with them has left Teyla in limbo with the Athosians--and both cross a line in "Critical Mass"--Weir in ordering Kavanagh's torture, and Teyla in losing her last, close tie to her people. And both these events are the culmination of everything that's happened thus far, leaving Weir and Teyla adrift and in doubt.

I feel so smart! :rolleyes: :p

Re: Weir and Kavanagh

It's interesting that most people here seem to agree Weir made the hard but expedient decision in okaying Kavanagh's torture whereas many of the LJ reactions I've read seem to say she should never have gone that far.

Personally, I think there was little else she could've done--it was either torture Kavanagh (the only likely suspect at that point) and hopefully get the access code or do nothing else and let the city explode with whoever was unlucky enough to still be around. That said, she did cross a line. I know some are disappointed (yeah, I'm talking to you, Ouroboros ;)) that issues were somewhat dodged because Kavanagh fainted before any actual torture could be done, but the process has to be gradual and, in this case, it was the mental act of agreeing to such a course in the first place that was key.

And later Weir did implicitly tell Sheppard and Ronon to go ahead and use whatever means necessary to get the access code from Caldwell. Because Caldwell had a nasty snake parasite at the time, this decision was more akin to letting Beckett and the Hoffans experiment on Steve, but Caldwell is still at least mostly human, and she didn't hesitate.

So, like I said, a gradual process.

And, you know, as much as I sometimes dislike Weir's tendency to be led by her heart or high morals, perhaps somebody on the expedition has to take that stand. Sheppard certainly isn't going to, no matter how much he may wish otherwise. And McKay can be very single-minded in pursuit of scientific goals or, heh, not dying.

Atlantis set out as a predominately civilian mission, but the war with the Wraith necessitates an increased military presence. Weir is a large part of what keeps Atlantis under civilian control, and that control has got to be tenuous. That she's under pressure from the military and is quite a bit out of her depth in leading a city-state during a war probably accounts for a lot of her actions--from her ofttimes petty power struggles with Caldwell to her inflexibility in certain situations to how hard she argued on Sheppard's behalf in "The Intruder."

Looking forward to Weir sliding more down that "ends justify the means" slope and the ramifications of this.

(Is it too much to hope for continuity here? This episode bringing back so many recurring characters and the Lord of the Flies planet gives me hope.)

Re: Cadman

At first, I found her makeup and bearing a little off--long hair down, no uniform, and generally not looking or acting like a Marine--then I started thinking she was perhaps off-duty.

The first time Sheppard and McKay ran into her, I got the distinct impression it was during the Atlantis nightshift. Plus she was doing diagnostics or something, which doesn't seem like something a Marine would do. The same goes for the later dial-in to Earth. That also seemed to be during the evening, so maybe Cadman was called in off-duty for consultation? And then worked, along with the rest of the control room staffers, nonstop for about a day? As in, didn't bother to stop and change into uniform? Only took bathroom breaks and got food brought up?

Re: Zelenka

SQUEE! :D

Also cute is that Zelenka wasn't the only one to suffer the artistic efforts of the kids. The other three(?) scientists that walked by in that scene with him had stuff braided into their hair and stick-grass jewelry, too.

...

Oh! One more thing. Anyone know anything about the watch Weir was toying with in the tag scene?

obsessed1
December 7th, 2005, 10:55 AM
Sheppards 'bomb in atlantis' line is an in joke from the cast me thnks.
ever seen the coverage of the behind the scenes of atlantis where joe flanigan is doing the 'theres a bomb on the bus' (Relating to his suposed failure to get the part in speed) He didtti exactly like that - the keanu voice and all.
Nice when you spot things like that!

GatetheWay
December 7th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Really, Joe auditioned for Speed? You learn something new everyday.

Anyway, did anyone catch the lyrics to Teyla's song?

gambit
December 7th, 2005, 11:12 AM
Really, Joe auditioned for Speed? You learn something new everyday.

I think I heard he was runner-up or something.

Athenaktt
December 7th, 2005, 11:13 AM
Oh! One more thing. Anyone know anything about the watch Weir was toying with in the tag scene?

I don't think anything has been said abou the watch on Weir's desk. It's been there since the first season. And it still boggles my mind where or why she has it. I guess the only explanation we have for it are drawn from fanfic or our imaginations. ;)

Yeade
December 7th, 2005, 11:19 AM
Has the watch really been there since the first season? Whoa! Looks like I don't spend nearly enough time analyzing the decor of Weir's office--I've only ever noticed the clay jar-thing Sheppard gave her in "Before I Sleep" and the dish with the four(?) female figures sitting in a circle, hands linked(?). :p

Athenaktt
December 7th, 2005, 11:25 AM
Has the watch really been there since the first season? Whoa! Looks like I don't spend nearly enough time analyzing the decor of Weir's office---I've only ever noticed the clay jar-thing Sheppard gave her in "Before I Sleep" and the dish with the four(?) female figures sitting in a circle, hands linked(?). :p
Yup, it's been in there since the very beginning.

So far the only things I remember that are still on her desk from the beginning are the pocket watch and the picture of Sedge. And every since she got the Jar for Sheppard, that's been there too.

As for the other things e.g., statues, they are constantly getting moved around the her office.

The fact that I know that scares me. :s

ToasterOnFire
December 7th, 2005, 11:38 AM
does anyone have any ideas about who kavenagh is sending messages to?
Good question. Perhaps it's something that will come up later? While I don't think Kav was working for the Trust (oh, but what a shocker if we find out later that he really was another plant!) I do think he has ulterior motives and looks out for himself.


Both struggle leading their people---Weir probably isn't sure what she's doing half the time, and the arrival of the Atlanteans and her casting her lot in with them has left Teyla in limbo with the Athosians---and both cross a line in "Critical Mass"---Weir in ordering Kavanagh's torture, and Teyla in losing her last, close tie to her people. And both these events are the culmination of everything that's happened thus far, leaving Weir and Teyla adrift and in doubt.
Excellent possibility! The link is quite subtle though. I wonder if Joe would have a better idea about the plot/subplot link or if he would wave that off to Binder...


Personally, I think there was little else she could've done---it was either torture Kavanagh (the only likely suspect at that point) and hopefully get the access code or do nothing else and let the city explode with whoever was unlucky enough to still be around. That said, she did cross a line. I know some are disappointed (yeah, I'm talking to you, Ouroboros ;) ) that issues were somewhat dodged because Kavanagh fainted before any actual torture could be done, but the process has to be gradual and, in this case, it was the mental act of agreeing to such a course in the first place that was key.
I still wish the issue wasn't dodged. Granted, Elizabeth must still deal with the internal conflict over choosing to have a man tortured but there's an unfortunate trend on Atlantis where internal conflicts are often forgotten in later episodes (Elizabeth's sadness over Simon in Intruder, others losing trust in Rodney in Trinity, Shep's withdrawl and attempted sacrifice in Conversion). If Kav had been tortured then there would have been something more tangible to grab onto (dealing with his death, wounds, and/or outrage, questioning from the SGC, UN, etc) and a bigger likelihood that the ramifications of Elizabeth's decision would be brought up again.
Still, I will reserve judgement until I've seen the rest of the episodes this season. It's perfectly possible that her decision directly starts the spiral toward her "darker" character or that the decision will be used against her when she apparently is forced to return to the SGC in season three. (Caldwell can't argue against her here though, as he did push for the torture, but someone else could certainly use it against her). There's lots of things the writers can do with this - let's see where they go.

Merlin7
December 7th, 2005, 11:58 AM
So so ep for me. Could have been a GREAT EP but the B/Teyla story line took up WAY too much time and I had zero interest in it. It took away time from the main SL which should have had more going on and more intensity and more of a build up and more follow through. I loved what there was of it. Loved pretty much all the bits. Wanted Shep to have more to do as head of military he was pretty much just lounging around it seemed. Mind you, I admired the view, but he should have been doing more in this situation. The interrogations went on too long too. I'm just tired of every ep rushing the A story line. It loses my interest that way.

Rachel has a lovely voice but the music playing for her ruined the effect. They didn't have musicians there. Acapella would have been way more effective and SHORTER! Again..the B SL took away from what could have been a GREAT *A* Story line.

Yeade
December 7th, 2005, 01:23 PM
[Re: The B-plot] Excellent possibility! The link is quite subtle though.If by "subtle," you mean it barely exists. :p

Thank you. :o
Granted, Elizabeth must still deal with the internal conflict over choosing to have a man tortured but there's an unfortunate trend on Atlantis where internal conflicts are often forgotten in later episodes (Elizabeth's sadness over Simon in Intruder, others losing trust in Rodney in Trinity, Shep's withdrawl and attempted sacrifice in Conversion).Well, I don't know if the internal conflicts are forgotten so much as... submerged?

SGA has (occasionally :rolleyes: ) impressed me by bringing back old issues to bite our heroes in the ass, so to speak. I mean, who watching "Thirty-Eight Minutes" the first time seriously thought the Iratus bug would become such a huge plot point? And the Genii are like cockroaches! The expedition's one screw-up in "Underground" led to "The Storm"/"The Eye," "The Brotherhood," and a sort of lukewarm war. I'm still waiting for the creators of the nanovirus from "Hot Zone" to come into play.

On the emotional side of things, the SGA characters strike me as the type to, well, go through about a dozen unhelpful and unproductive avoidance tactics before confronting any kind of personal issues.

Sheppard? His method of dealing with trauma is to shove everything into some dark corner, forget about it, and not unkindly but firmly discourage everyone else from ever mentioning it again. Didn't hear much from him about clinically dying in "Thirty-Eight Minutes" (or, for that matter, his suicide attempt in "The Siege") so didn't expect to hear much from him about his experiences in "Conversion."

Weir? Drowns herself in her work. Trying and trying not to make the same mistakes again. That's how I read her tag scene in "The Intruder." She's had at least however-many-days-it-takes-the-Deddy-to-make-the-trip-from-Earth-(I forgot, lol) to deal with Simon's rejection, and when she arrives back in Atlantis, she dismisses Teyla's concern and immediately starts working, all the more devoted to the expedition and her professional life because she doesn't have much left personally.

McKay? Well, he generally reacts to pressure badly--by reverting to being a bit of a jerk--unless it's pressure and the lives of the people he cares about are on the line. In which case, he generally steps up to the plate admirably, if with a lot of complaining and predictions of doom. After "Trinity" though, I got the impression he was subdued, quicker to admit his faults, and more desperate to do anything he can to keep his team safe. (Especially Sheppard, and that makes me hurt for McKay because, Christ, that's next to impossible.) He goes on the egg hunt in "Conversion" though he has no real place there, his first thought is to go in the "Aurora" pods himself (that's also the episode where we have the only verbal exchange between Sheppard and McKay about the hot topic of trust), and there were the recent close calls in "The Hive" and "Epiphany."Namely McKay taking the big, BIG dose of the enzyme to overpower his guards, fix the DHD, return to Atlantis, and rescue his overdue team. Then there's his controlled panic to fix it when Sheppard gets sucked in the time dilation portal, admitting it was his fault, saying he can't fly the jumper in a straight line, and crediting an idea to Zelenka.
...and I could go on and on about everybody, but I think I've written enough.

SO, look, there's CHARACTER CONTINUITY!

Well, if you're the type to connect the A and B plots of this episode by relating Weir and Teyla's experiences and shortcomings as female leaders of their respective peoples. :p
If Kav had been tortured then there would have been something more tangible to grab onto [snip] and a bigger likelihood that the ramifications of Elizabeth's decision would be brought up again.Agreed. As it is, I don't think Kavanagh's going to forgive Weir for taking this final step--even if he goaded her to it and, BTW, how stupid is that?--and since he's probably heading back to Earth, it'll be interesting to see if he'll drum up trouble for her. I have no doubt many on Earth wouldn't be able to grasp the life-and-death urgency of the situation. I, too, will reserve judgment until I see the rest of the season.
Shep to have more to do as head of military he was pretty much just lounging around it seemed.If it's any consolation, there's more than enough wiggle room to write Sheppard a very active role off-screen. Sheppard presumably organized the military in searching the city immediately after receiving the message from SGC (there are two short scenes of the actual search) and later helped with the interrogations, as I understand a number of people from both the Deddy and Atlantis were questioned (though only Weir's interviews with Kavanagh and Novak were shown). He was probably in charge of the evacuation as well. I chalk it up to limited time, too many plotlines and characters, and TPTB just not being all that great at getting the details in sometimes.
Mind you, I admired the view...Aaaahhh, yeeesss. I've read reviews in which people compared his casual lounge on the corner of Weir's desk to a slinky singer sprawling atop a piano, lol. It'd be disturbing if there weren't a nugget of truth there.

Right. Moving over to the thunk thread. :D


edit: tags

AutumnDream
December 7th, 2005, 01:25 PM
I looooved the B story. Teyla isn't exposed enough and I'm always really happy to see her get to play an important role, whether in the main story or her own story. I thought the stuff with Charin was touching, too. :p

Yeade
December 7th, 2005, 01:37 PM
You're just trying to rile people up, aren't you? ;)

Callie
December 7th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Help with the lyrics, please? In the final verse after they've saved the city, what are the words following "River flows"? They sound like "Let (something) win" but I really can't make them out.

The rest of the lyrics are:

Beyond the night, a rising sun
Beyond the night, the battle won
The battle’s won.

Fear and shame now in the past
Pain and sorrow gone at last
Gone at last.

Circle renewed, peace will be found
Beyond the night on sacred ground.

River flows [I can’t make out this next bit]
First new breath, our journey begins
Our journey begins.

Jonzey
December 7th, 2005, 02:43 PM
Some people mentioned that there weren't any instruments visible during Teyla's song. There were. In the first few seconds of the music when the camera is kinda looking in the direction from the head of dead women (i forget her name) to her feet. And I counted one guy with two big tribal drum thingys and a couple of other people with big stringed instruments which I coudn't identify.

atlantis2184
December 7th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Hey guys !

Do you know where I can find the transcript of Critical Mass?
I have just seen the screencaps and now I am wondering how the dialogue looks like.
Thanks.

Callie
December 7th, 2005, 03:37 PM
The first draft of the transcript is here:

http://www.brundle.free-online.co.uk/213_Critical_Mass.html

atlantis2184
December 7th, 2005, 04:07 PM
Thanks a lot for the transcript !!!

CYBEREAGLE19
December 7th, 2005, 04:49 PM
all ina ll great episode, could have done out with the athosian story line and taylas singing, I love how hermiod and novak back, and see everyone ahtes kavanaugh, glad theay had shep useing a taser, I would have hated had he somehow come up with and used a zat on cauldwell, anyone notice that when theay showed the city it was still all lit up even thought theay ahd removed the zpm, also how coe theay where able to explore the city looking for the bomb without power, wasent that why we couldent go exploreing in the first season?, oh well despite a few negative it was a much better epsisode then recently, also woinder how far ahead does this episode take place after the plage in the fourthhorsemen?

Stevo
December 7th, 2005, 07:47 PM
This has to be one of my favourite episodes, it was really well done and the beaming of caldwell to be interrigated was cool, just a shame that caldwell didnt put up much of a fight :(
:)

the fifth man
December 7th, 2005, 08:53 PM
This does sound like a pretty good ep. I can't wait until we actually get to see it here in the US.

spirited Chihiro
December 7th, 2005, 09:38 PM
Callie- They sound like "Let (something) win" but I really can't make them out.

To me it sounds like she is singing -
Let by the wind

YodaMate
December 7th, 2005, 10:00 PM
Didn't read the whole thread, so sorry for repetition.

I thought it was great to see that Sheppard is the only one out of practically all the characters on both shows who actually reads and remembers the SG-1 mission reports :p Specifically, i refer to the incident with Skaa'ra way back in the Season 1 finale, when they zatted Klor'al and Skaa'ra was able to take control back temporarily.

An important Goa'uld weakness that everyone promtply forgot about for 8 years, until Sheppard came along :)

JanusAncient
December 7th, 2005, 10:04 PM
Very disinterested in spoilers, if I've spoken twice, forgive. Getting pass Stargate Command detection is sort of believeable, but how can a Goa'uld trick the very advanced Ancient sensors?

PG15
December 7th, 2005, 10:05 PM
Top 3 of the season so far, no question. I love how everything was super fast paced, and you can definately see the contrast of the colorful Atlantis set and the military-ness of the SGC, very cool there.

And the song, Oh my God the song! It adds SOOO much to those scenes. Ok, yes maybe the dubbing was a little off at times (I barely noticed it), but it just set the mood so well, and of course, Rachel was perfect.

Definately an "Outstanding" or whatever the highest option is in those Gateworld polls.

Stevo
December 7th, 2005, 10:22 PM
just a question though, why does weir look at sheppard when she leaves the room, why leave at all did she think somthing could happen to her?

xfkirsten
December 7th, 2005, 10:36 PM
just a question though, why does weir look at sheppard when she leaves the room, why leave at all did she think somthing could happen to her?

I think it was just her not wanting to actually be there when any kind of "torture" (or related tactics) were going on. She took the step of ordering it, but I don't think she could bring herself to actually watch it.

Dorka
December 7th, 2005, 11:57 PM
Help with the lyrics, please? In the final verse after they've saved the city, what are the words following "River flows"? They sound like "Let (something) win" but I really can't make them out.

The rest of the lyrics are:

Beyond the night, a rising sun
Beyond the night, the battle won
The battle’s won.

Fear and shame now in the past
Pain and sorrow gone at last
Gone at last.

Circle renewed, peace will be found
Beyond the night on sacred ground.

River flows [I can’t make out this next bit]
First new breath, our journey begins
Our journey begins.

Thanks for posting that...:D

one detail:
Beyond the night, the battle's won
The battle is won.

And I'd say she sings "River flows led by the wind"

Konrad9
December 8th, 2005, 01:34 AM
Very disinterested in spoilers, if I've spoken twice, forgive. Getting pass Stargate Command detection is sort of believeable, but how can a Goa'uld trick the very advanced Ancient sensors?
Maybe it can't discern life signs to that degree?
Doubtful it was ever even designed to, considering the obviousness of the Iratus bug (the only other real parasite/symbiote encountered).

spirited Chihiro
December 8th, 2005, 02:05 AM
well i got to see the video of the song, and i have to say that some of you guys are being very negative..sure the lip sync wasnt PERFECT..but i assumed it was going to be terrible..most of the time it was fine!!

Anyway..and yes 'Led by the wind' is definitely it..i actually did hear that..but wrote what was in front of me!

Mefusta
December 8th, 2005, 03:50 AM
Well, having just watched it, I thought it was easily one of the best episodes i've seen in a while. While there were a few niggles, they were easily outweighed by the many positives; the presence of so many great secondary characters (ie. Dr. Lee, Cadman, etc.), a nice simple whodunit story in contrast to the previous episodes that were more 'out there', and the final twist at the end which I did not see coming, and made me literally sit up in shock.

I do have a few complaints:
- The whole Teyla singing thing just made me cringe and, I have to admit, skip ahead in the episode to skip it. I don't know what it was, but I just really don't like it when anyone breaks into song.
- While the tie-ins to SG1 with appearances from Landry, Walter and soforth were great, I really got a bit annoyed that the agent (forget his name) said 'Colonel Carter just got back and she'll be able to help us with it' (or something like that), and then not even showing a glimpse of Sam! Maybe i'm just missing new SG-1 eps a bit, but I would have loved Sam appearing just as a harbinger of her appearance in 'Grace Under Pressure'. A bit of a cheat IMO, but understandable as it is.
- The big-ass logic hole regarding the whole 'if they dial Earth, they'll go KABLOOEY!! I mean, why the hell didn't the SGC just set up the relay, and when a few minutes before Atlantis was scheduled to dial in, put something inside the Stargate to block an incoming wormhole! Think about it, if the wormhole couldn't connect, Atlantis wouldn't go Kablooey and they'd recieve the relayed message! And it wouldn't require much effort at all to do, I mean how hard could it be to uncouple the big, red superconductors on the sides of the 'Gate and move the big, honkin' Ramp inside the ring to prevent an incoming wormhold from forming. Hell, I remember Hammond once saying they were able to block incoming wormholes to the second stargate by moving the Iris on it a few millimetres back! Any comments?

All up, a bloody great episode, but am I the only one who wants more collaboration between Atlantis and SG1? Honestly, I can't be the only person here who wants to see SG1 working in tandem with... uh... SGA1...? Have they ever given a name a la 'SG#' to the Atlantis teams...? *Ponders*

Erised
December 8th, 2005, 04:21 AM
All up, a bloody great episode, but am I the only one who wants more collaboration between Atlantis and SG1? Honestly, I can't be the only person here who wants to see SG1 working in tandem with... uh... SGA1...? Have they ever given a name a la 'SG#' to the Atlantis teams...? *Ponders*
nope! you're not the only one! I would have loved for someone from SG-1 to for example come to Atlantis and help with some problem. I think that a few episodes with AT or MS wouldn't be so bad... and then on SG-1 they can say "oh he's in Atlantis" or "She's in Atlantis" This would be so cool! :D
And I was hoping to actually see Carter working on solution about the bomb, because Dr. Lee (was it?) mentioned that she was working on it!
But I knew they wouldn't show her :(

And it would be nice to see Atlantis characters in SG-1 episodes too, wouldn' it?

Vicious
December 8th, 2005, 06:54 AM
This was a really good episode. Didn't quite care for the singing as much as some others did. But i was a little dissappointed. Why the heck would the trust want atlantis bombarded by the wraith? Heres what i thought the episode would originally be about.

The rouge goa'uld would be attempting to attract the wraith so he could take one as a host. Wouldn't a wraith make an awesome host for a goa'uld? Eternal life, and all the other cool wraith stuff like telepathy. Kind of like a hok'tar on steroids.

DetriusXii
December 8th, 2005, 08:04 AM
Very good episode. Kind of wished the Go'uld would have left through the stargate. I'm sure that there are several planets out there that would turn to a Go'uld for protection against the Wraith.

But this episode got me thinking of one question. Who's in command of the ship with Caldwell compromised? Does Hermiod have authority? I'm sure the Asgard would have some authority over Daedelus since it can also reach the Ida galaxy and Hermiod could probably prevent that if the Daedelus was used against the Asgard. And Hermiod would make a suitable second officer since the Asgard are immune to Go'uld infestation. Hermiod is basically the last line of defense if the vessel is compromised.

Blue Banrigh
December 8th, 2005, 08:16 AM
It'd probably stay docked on Atlantis till Caldwell recovers, but if not there's always Capt Kleinman.

prion
December 8th, 2005, 08:20 AM
Very good episode. Kind of wished the Go'uld would have left through the stargate. I'm sure that there are several planets out there that would turn to a Go'uld for protection against the Wraith.

I'm glad they didn't. I was worried the writers might do something lame like that, but luckily, they didn't (of course, had no idea who was penning the ep at that point either. I'd prefer that the Goa'uld stay confined to the SG1 universe and that they beef up the Wraith and any potential new villains.


But this episode got me thinking of one question. Who's in command of the ship with Caldwell compromised? Does Hermiod have authority? I'm sure the Asgard would have some authority over Daedelus since it can also reach the Ida galaxy and Hermiod could probably prevent that if the Daedelus was used against the Asgard. And Hermiod would make a suitable second officer since the Asgard are immune to Go'uld infestation. Hermiod is basically the last line of defense if the vessel is compromised.

There's definitely a chain of command and someone who take over if Caldwell was disabled. I mean, heck, what if he tripped over the Asgard and knocked himself out? I'm sure the Earth folk have authority but I get the feeling Hermoid could easily take over in a pinch.

Unamed
December 8th, 2005, 08:26 AM
imo it was one of the seasons best, the song went perfectly with the discovery of caldwell, especially when sheppard was shocking him with the tazer/stun gun. It set the mood perfectly. Shame about the poor dubbing though.

the dancer of spaz
December 8th, 2005, 08:54 AM
nope! you're not the only one! I would have loved for someone from SG-1 to for example come to Atlantis and help with some problem. I think that a few episodes with AT or MS wouldn't be so bad... and then on SG-1 they can say "oh he's in Atlantis" or "She's in Atlantis" This would be so cool! :D
And I was hoping to actually see Carter working on solution about the bomb, because Dr. Lee (was it?) mentioned that she was working on it!
But I knew they wouldn't show her :(

And it would be nice to see Atlantis characters in SG-1 episodes too, wouldn' it?

He actually mentioned her? :eek: Wow, they're really pushing these Carter/Jackson crossover bits, eh? They want it to look and sound as seamless as possible...

I don't quite know how I feel about all of these crossover eps. I mean, it's nice for me, because I watch both shows, but I'd imagine it's probably pretty frustrating for the solely-Atlantis fans. :S

Either way, AT/Sam and MS/Daniel are great characters, and I hope the writers can find a way to add them without taking away from the others.

Hey, are there transcripts out for these eps yet? :D

Jonzey
December 8th, 2005, 09:26 AM
I like crossovers. Would be awesome if they have a major two-part episode where Sheppard's team and Mitchell's team have to work side by side on something (maybe not something goauldy, wraithy or oriiy (oriiii?)- but maybe some new episode with a new enemy (not necessarily a whole race of baddies- maybe just one super-evil guy with super technology and the ability to cross galaxies in the blink of an eye- or something. As you can see, there's a reason I'm not a writer.)

Edit: I forget where my brackets are supposed to begin and end :S

the dancer of spaz
December 8th, 2005, 09:31 AM
I like crossovers. Would be awesome if they have a major two-part episode where Sheppard's team and Mitchell's team have to work side by side on something (maybe not something goauldy, wraithy or oriiy (oriiii?)- but maybe some new episode with a new enemy (not necessarily a whole race of baddies- maybe just one super-evil guy with super technology and the ability to cross galaxies in the blink of an eye- or something. As you can see, there's a reason I'm not a writer.)

Edit: I forget where my brackets are supposed to begin and end :S

Well, I think there's definite potential for some kind of "Two-Hour Crossover Event" where SG-1 and SGA have to work together, and you essentially see both teams on Earth and Atlantis...

But it kinda takes the umph away from any sort of Special Event if they have crossovers all the time, ya know? And I'd imagine that scheduling that sort of thing for the crew and actors would be really difficult.

I'd still like to see it though! :D

immhotep
December 8th, 2005, 09:53 AM
yeah totally i loved this episode, its been the best one yet IMO, i love SGa uner pressure. i really wanted to see kavanaugh beaten though! i hate that guy.
i think crossover are such a good idea cant wait til GUP now.

Yeade
December 8th, 2005, 11:03 AM
anyone notice that when theay showed the city it was still all lit up even thought theay ahd removed the zpm, also how coe theay where able to explore the city looking for the bomb without power, wasent that why we couldent go exploreing in the first season?I assumed that when McKay disconnected the ZPM, Atlantis switched over to naquadah generators. First season, the (five? six?) generators the expedition brought with them were at least enough to power the central section of the city, and I'm sure more generators were procured once contact with Earth was reestablished. The lack of a ZPM through most of S1 really only hurt Atlantis because the shield couldn't be raised and, I think, the expedition didn't want to risk exploring too much of the city and accidentally starting systems that might drain what little power they had. The bomb search in "Critical Mass" went through parts of the city already being used for technical stuff like power distribution and whatnot.
I thought it was great to see that Sheppard is the only one out of practically all the characters on both shows who actually reads and remembers the SG-1 mission reports :pLMAO! Really? Though I don't think he started reading these in earnest until S2 kicked off; he was kind of busy with other things for most of S1--heh, like trying not to die. Certainly explains why he brought a taser along.
just a question though, why does weir look at sheppard when she leaves the room, why leave at all did she think somthing could happen to her?Personally, I thought Sheppard was silently asking her permission to use whatever means necessary to get the access code out of Goa'uld!Caldwell, and she tacitly agreed when she left. Like xfkirsten wrote, she might not have wanted to stick around for the actual torturing, and it's also possible she wanted to preserve plausible deniability as the civilian expedition leader. Deniability is probably, in part, why Ronon was sent to interrogate Kavanagh without Sheppard's or Caldwell's supervision; as an alien officially affiliated with an alien military, defunct or not, Ronon has a lot more leeway in pursuing less-than-savory methods than either the military commander of Atlantis or the Deddy. Even if Sheppard or Caldwell had just observed, it'd be harder to, well, get around any negative repercussions.
Getting pass Stargate Command detection is sort of believeable, but how can a Goa'uld trick the very advanced Ancient sensors?
Maybe it can't discern life signs to that degree? Doubtful it was ever even designed to, considering the obviousness of the Iratus bug (the only other real parasite/symbiote encountered).IIRC, the Ancient biometric scanner did detect Sheppard once he truly started going... buggy. When his transformation first started though, a) Beckett's engineered retrovirus was gradually hacking apart his DNA (or something), and it might not have reached detectable levels and b) nobody thought of it, lol.

As for why the Ancient sensors didn't detect Goa'uld!Caldwell, well, a) the parasite might be integrated enough into the host that it's (just!) under the detecting range of the biometric scanner, b) the sensors in Atlantis aren't tuned for picking out Goa'uld as well as Wraith or Wraith-like creatures, c) Caldwell spent most of his time on the Deddy, and d) nobody thought of it. Again. :p
The big-ass logic hole regarding the whole 'if they dial Earth, they'll go KABLOOEY!! I mean, why the hell didn't the SGC just set up the relay, and when a few minutes before Atlantis was scheduled to dial in, put something inside the Stargate to block an incoming wormhole!Atlantis might've gotten blown to hell anyways, even if SGC did this. While Atlantis wouldn't have been able to establish a wormhole, would merely trying to have overloaded the ZPM? In that the Atlantis stargate would be drawing power from the ZPM in preparation for establishing a connection to Earth. Maybe.

Finally, it occurred to me that I've been tossing the word "torture" around pretty casually. It's both more efficient and deniable to start with psychological torture before moving to physical, so I'm thinking Ronon went in there intending to scare the crap (and the access code) out of Kavanagh a la his knife-in-the-table negotiation style in "Trinity." If Kavanagh turned out to be a great deal more resilient than expected, he'd progress to harsher methods. Not that this changes the fact that everyone in that conference room agreed to leave open the possibility of hardcore torture.

Jonzey
December 8th, 2005, 11:12 AM
Maybe the Atlantis alien sensors are tuned for every lifeform the ancients encountered in Pegasus. And since the ancients in pegasus had no goa'uld troubles, a goa'uld could fly under the sensors undetected.

I thought it was funny when they were talking about the Atlantis operating system. I kept picturing ''Microsoft Windows for Ancients''.

Metarock Sam
December 8th, 2005, 11:18 AM
Well I saw the episode today and I thought it was quite good. And Was quite a good crossover (shame we didnt get to see Daniel, Mitchell,Teal'c or Carter for the matter). I was sure the Cavanagh was the Gou'ald and was suprised Caldwell being it.
I loved the whole twighlight bark scene that was hilarious. Well done for a great episode.

Yeade
December 8th, 2005, 11:35 AM
Don't you know, Jonzey? Atlantis is the City of Dorks. McKay made a crack about the ZPM in "Childhood's End" running on an older version of Windows when he couldn't get the thing to "plug and play." :p

On a more serious (and relevant but, sadly, no less obsessive) note, you've reminded me of another time reference. Since Caldwell accessed the city's operating system, copied it, took it back to the Trust, then returned with the rewritten version, he's been compromised for the Deddy's last two visits to Atlantis. I think it's safe to assume he planted the "bomb" on this latest trip, which the Deddy was returning from at the beginning of the episode, and that once the Trust got him as an operative, they didn't waste time in having him hack the city system. The only question is how long it took the Trust scientists to rework the ZPM failsafes.

At any rate, Caldwell's been under Goa'uld control since at least "The Hive."Where he pushed the Deddy's engines to make it back to Atlantis to, ostensibly, help in the search for Sheppard's team. Hmm...

KRiZ
December 8th, 2005, 11:50 AM
If you re watch the ep and watch caldwell he does give off signals as being the go'auld, its not quite up there with spacey/keyser soze in usual suspects, but there are moments.

quick example when he hears the news from earth about the bomb he looks concerned, pausing before trying to send it on.

also another good one he takes the daedalus out of range so earth cant contact with more info, poss revealing him as the spy

brandohall
December 8th, 2005, 11:55 AM
When Weir accused Caldwell of taking it back to the Trust, she didn't know he was a goauld. It is very possible that as a Goauld, Caldwell could have done all of this on his own, and hence, did not have to be a goauld for more than one visit.

Cynicat
December 8th, 2005, 12:01 PM
I thought it was funny when they were talking about the Atlantis operating system. I kept picturing ''Microsoft Windows for Ancients''.

I kinda see the Ancients as Mac fans - OSX, it's all about the aesthetic ;)

They're a plug'n'play civilisation :D

Yeade
December 8th, 2005, 12:18 PM
When Weir accused Caldwell of taking [the Atlantis OS] back to the Trust, she didn't know he was a goauld. It is very possible that as a Goauld, Caldwell could have done all of this on his own...Seriously? I, er, haven't watched much of SG-1, so I have no idea how easily the Goa'uld can use and/or modify Ancient technology. My uneducated opinion, though, is that it's... a bit too much of a deus ex machina for Goa'uld!Caldwell to be capable of recoding the operation of such a crucial function as the ZPM failsafes and disguising his tampering well enough to escape detection by the city. I find that harder to believe than the Trust think tank pouring over the Atlantis specs and doing the same.
I kinda see the Ancients as Mac fans - OSX, it's all about the aesthetic ;)Ah! I see. That's the deal with all those transparent, glowing crystal control panels and burnished metal fittings. I can see the design connection there. :)

PG15
December 8th, 2005, 12:34 PM
You have to remember that the Gou'ald have been parasitizing (sp?) Ancient tech for a long time (Stargate anyone?), so this kind of understanding is not unbelievable.

immhotep
December 8th, 2005, 12:51 PM
yeah also the trust goaulds were probley agent of anubis who used ancient tech almost exclusivly to upgrade his ships ( with the exception of asgard holograms and beams) in addition ancient codes. so its not surprising. plus they did study that database they got given by cadwell

Yeade
December 8th, 2005, 01:32 PM
Well, you see, here's the thing. I don't remember any of this because I never watched SG-1! :o :p

I'd be willing to believe a Goa'uld, working alone, is capable of the "Critical Mass" sabotage if the Goa'uld have shown a) signs of being able to program Ancient technology and b) familiarity with ZPM systems in particular.

From what immhotep says, it seems I can strike out A. And, now that I think about it, Weir mentions much the same--talking about the Trust's "Goa'uld scientists." I suppose one Goa'uld could do it given enough skill and time.

The timeline could work either way. Say Caldwell was compromised on his latest return to Earth, gave up all the information he had on Atlantis while he was there and plotted with the Trust people, then implemented the plan when he went back to Atlantis. All one trip! I assume the Goa'uld would be able to exert enough control to get everything on Atlantis out of Caldwell, though I'm not sure what you mean by "database," immhotep.

However, the "bomb" couldn't have been active more than a week ago or Atlantis would've exploded into smithereens, none the wiser, on the last report to SGC...

Aaarrggghh... C'mon, SGA! I know you can work out these time issues! And I don't even know if the Deddy left Atlantis after "The Hive"... No, no, that doesn't work. If Caldwell can leave whenever he wants, which seems to be the case, why would he pass up an opportunity to destroy the city? The three latest episodes couldn't have all happened within the same week, right?!

Okay. Deep breath. I can do this.

...wait, wait. There were two deletion points. Goa'uld!Caldwell accessed the city's systems twice, and I don't see why he'd do that if he were going to just plant the "bomb"--more likely to be discovered then one, fast coding session.

So, I'm going to stick with Caldwell having been compromised as far back as "The Hive." And that the visit the Deddy was leaving from at the start of this episode and "The Hive" were separate runs. :pMight also explain why he was still so keen on destroying both Wraith hives instead of making a strategic retreat after it became clear the nuke beaming wasn't going to pan out. Never could figure out what he expected to do. Especially since in "The Siege" and "Aurora" Caldwell wasn't above cutting his losses and running.
Does anyone else want to take a crack at the timeline here? My brain's starting to hurt, lol.


edit: minor rewording, additions for clarity, tags

GatetheWay
December 8th, 2005, 02:03 PM
Weir said he copied the what ever then brought it back to the Trust then installed it.

So Caldwell would of had to of gone to Earth to been comprimised
then go back to Atlantis copy the whatever
then return to earth where the Turst thinks it over
finally returning to Atlantis again to plant the bomb
and start the return trip back to Earth when they are called back.

That's THREE trips on the Deddy roughly 54 days of him being a goauld on the ship not including his time spent on Atlantis or Earth. So it's been awhile maybe even farther back then the Hive.

joasia
December 8th, 2005, 02:04 PM
A response for few questions asked in the whole thread.

I think Daedalus' engines are OK - they did risk the burnout to get the message to Atlantis on time, but have no need to be in such a hurry to get back to the city.

Why Earth did not dial Atlantis? Because the have been afraid that the bomb could go off as a result - some kind of signal transmitted from SGC or something. They did learn it's not the case later on.

We would probably see Sam if Daedalus would not cut the link by going to Atlantis.

I have the impression that Baal(s) got in contact with the Trust on Earth, and Baal is known to be able to modify Stargate program, which is definietly an Ancient technology (OK, the Fat Guy claimed ithas been him, but I do not quite believe him...). It looks like in the right circumstances Baal would be a good scientist, just remove the Goau'ld "kneel before your God" stuff. ;)

And I knew it could not be Kavanagh. But I kind of hoped they manage to kill him somehow before they realise that (and, if I may say so, Teal'c innterrogation has been *much* more fruitful. Teal'c : Ronon - 1 : 0 :D)

Yeade
December 8th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Weir said [Caldwell] copied the what ever then brought it back to the Trust then installed it.That's what I thought (think), but brandohall pointed out that Weir said this before she knew Caldwell was a Goa'uld and speculated that, as a Goa'uld, he could've rewritten the Atlantis OS himself, meaning only one trip was needed--from Earth to Atlantis--and a much shorter span of time.

GatetheWay
December 8th, 2005, 02:52 PM
This sounds like a good question to ask Joe.

CYBEREAGLE19
December 8th, 2005, 08:34 PM
whsy everyone keep saying bomb, rember there was no actaule bomb, just software that had been re programmed foir the zmp failsafes, so for all we know it could have been uploaded at anytime then all it took was a remote activation from cauldwell

duffarama
December 8th, 2005, 09:12 PM
This was one of the most emotional and heart riveting Stargate episodes I have watched. I never knew that the heights of Stargate Atlantis could reach this far.
The scenes nearing the end with Telya singing really capped it off. Intertwining Atlantis with SG1 was great because before this episode was aired, SG1 was helping Stargate Atlantis get off the ground. In this stunning episode it was the opposite.
Hopefully we get to see more of Caldwell and Kavanaugh in the future, because they acted amicably in Critical Mass. This surely was one of the best Atlantis episodes to date, along with The Eye, Before I Sleep and The Siege Part 2.

Crichton
December 11th, 2005, 12:36 AM
I agree that it was an amazing episode. They once again show extra effort to things overlooked in almost all TV shows like, cinematography, editing, and now extra emphasis on music. I'm not a huge fan of the Teyla song, but there's no denying that it was implemented flawlessly.

The moment Caldwell's eye's flashed gold revealing he was a Gou'ald, I got chills as the acting, music, editing, and special effects all contributed to a highly emotional and all around kick ass scene. Damn I'm happy I don't read spoilers.

Landry was flat as ever but the crossover was well done. Cadmen is hot I tell you!! Give that women some more screen time!!

ShadowMaat
December 11th, 2005, 07:17 AM
Lee- LOVE him. LOL! It cracks me up that none of them got the Twilight Bark reference, but everyone had an "oh yeah" reaction to LOTR. A little on the too cutesy side, but it still made me grin. So is Lee the Zelenka of SG-1 or what? Their scenes had a similar "why me?" feel to them. :) Speaking of which...

Zelenka- I have to say, I'm surprised he hates children so much. I would have figured he'd love them, just because McKay hates them so much. And he has a sister, too? It worked, yes, and I loved the whole grump about the kids and then the lovely little exxtreme makeover at the end (finally puts that pic on the Zelenka thread into perspective)- it was one of the highlights of the ep for me, but I still wish they'd give Rodney and Radek more diverse backgrounds. I kinda wish we could have had Zelenka's story as the B-plot instead, but I guess that would have ruined some of the hilarity of that final scene. :D

Kavanagh- love him even more, now. :) He's still a complete jackass, and yet now we have a glimpse of something more going on. My guess as for why he's always hanging around Novak is that he has a "thing" for her (this could be why he keeps going back and forth- more time to spend with her). But being the arrogant prick that he is, he could never admit it and can't lower his guard enough to tell her how he feels. Or maybe it has something to do with his secret friend in Atlantis. Wonder who (or what) THAT might be.

He's kinda like a concentrated version of McKay, without the superbrain and lacking even the rudimentary socializing skills Rodney has. Now I wanna know what's happened to make him like that. It'll also be interesting to see what happens now that he knows just how much Weir hates/distrusts him. Personally, though, I think he made some pretty good points about her, however rudely he did it.

Hermiod- "Stop talking." LOL! Gotta love it.

Caldwell- had him pegged as a suspect at the beginning, but didn't think the producers would ever go that way and given all the highly detailed technical/scientific knowledge that would have been required to do what was done... I dunno. Seems a little far-fetched, unless the goa'uld was a scientific genius. Or wait, he took a copy of the system back to Earth and had folks working on it there?? Umm... OK... Why does that seem MORE far-fetched to me?

Teyla- OK, I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I HATED HATED HATED that whole song sequence. HATED it. I'm sorry. It felt MASSIVELY out of place. If it had been a solo voice without accompaniment (or with only subdued instrumentals) that'd be one thing, but full orchestration AND back-up vocals?? *grinds teeth* It looked and sounded like it was recorded in a studio (I really don't like lip synching) and it was WAY too much (and too long) for a simple Athosian ceremony. I found it unbelieveable and a big detractant to the ep. This whole B-plot didn't really mesh well with the rest of the ep- not similar enough to lend weight to the arc and not different enough to counter-balance it.

Cadman- I liked her better in Duet. She felt like too much of a red herring this time and only seemed to be around to give McKay something to be paranoid about- not really part of the story so much as a convenient plot device. The character has potential, she deserves better than this.

Weir- as I said, Kavanagh was right, she IS ruled by her emotions and many of her actions prove it, including her reaction to Kavanagh and the fact that in the end she was willing to try torture. The fact that instead of being Kavanagh it was Caldwell (another person she hates) only emphasizes her lack of appropriate distancing, if you ask me. Were they "necessary" calls? Maybe. But if the prime suspect had been, say, Sheppard, it would NEVER have happened.

Agree on the rushed ending. WAY too quickly (and easily) resolved. And for all the stressing about those Wraith ships, they seemed to be dismissed awfully fast. Once again, more plot device than anything of relevance (especially since we already know about the in-fighting between hives).

Some of the individual elements were great and I guess the ep hangs together as a whole, but the whole whodunit thing felt a little forced and the resolution was overly contrived. I mean, who here REALLY thought it was Kavanagh? He was just as much of a red herring as Cadman, but at least he had better scenes.

Also, am I to understand that when the SGC sends an ultra-high priority message about a massive breach in security and the possibility of a goa'uld infiltration, that the details get broadcast to the entire bridge crew? Or was Novak speaking directly into Caldwell's earbud? (was he wearing one?) And why is Novak reading such a message, anyway? If it's that vital and if there's even a question that someone on the ship might be compromised, I should think that the message would be coded for Caldwell's eyes only. Yes, it turns out he was the leak, but that wasn't known at the time and I get the feeling that the only reason it DIDN'T happen that way was to broaden the pool of suspects.

Incidentally, why not name the Goa'uld who infiltrated the Trust? Do they not want to spoiler the earlier ep of SG-1? Or are we supposed to infer that more than one Goa'uld is now involved and not just those loyal to you-know-who? :P Actually, this whole "bomb in the city" plotline was a little TOO similar to "that" ep of SG-1. I kept waiting for someone to say, "The bomb isn't in the city, it IS the city!" Although I guess the ZPM being the culprit was the next best thing. *sigh* Will Atlantis ever break away from the SG-1 lite syndrome? :(

The crossover was well handled, but I'm still leery that they're over-doing it. I don't care that Atlantis has to answer to the SGC and that the two shows are directly related, I want there to be as little leakage as possible between the two. Instead, it seems as if the shows are doomed to become MORE intertwined, not less. Let's not strangle them BOTH, okay?

Oh, and TOF, forget the whole "people questioning Weir's authority get the smackdown" thing, let's look at anyone who tries to usurp Shep's authority: the first two get wraithed and now Caldwell is snaked. Dangerous job, being a military commander in Atlantis...

Naughtrish
December 11th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Shadow expressed most of my thoughts about this episode.
I will add that I expected Weir to kick Ponytail's rear after he said "who needs to blow up the city when Weir is on command" (not exact words, I know). Where was the "I've not worked up humiliation yet" Weir? Instead we got a nearly sobbing, pouting face. Sheesh.
And I was kinda shocked to realize that Sheppard would go for torture... I never expected him to go that way. Yeah well, he did with Steve the Wraith... Geneva Convention not applying... still can't see him agreeint with torture plain and simple.

Crichton
December 11th, 2005, 08:15 PM
And I was kinda shocked to realize that Sheppard would go for torture... I never expected him to go that way. Yeah well, he did with Steve the Wraith... Geneva Convention not applying... still can't see him agreeint with torture plain and simple.I don't think TPTB really planned things out like, ok in this situation it would be in Sheppard's character to endorse torture. I believe that they just made him agree with that so that they could play out their statements/moral lesson about how current U.S. torture policies are very Wraith-like. I gotta say TPTB had some balls on that one, good job!!

iLemon
December 12th, 2005, 03:42 AM
LMAO!! Kavvy fainted!! That scene was hilarious!! :D :rolleyes:

I loved the LOTR reference too but I cant believe those guys have never seen 101 Dalmations :S



Teyla- OK, I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I HATED HATED HATED that whole song sequence. HATED it. I'm sorry. It felt MASSIVELY out of place. If it had been a solo voice without accompaniment (or with only subdued instrumentals) that'd be one thing, but full orchestration AND back-up vocals?? *grinds teeth* It looked and sounded like it was recorded in a studio (I really don't like lip synching) and it was WAY too much (and too long) for a simple Athosian ceremony. I found it unbelieveable and a big detractant to the ep. This whole B-plot didn't really mesh well with the rest of the ep- not similar enough to lend weight to the arc and not different enough to counter-balance it.

Completely agree, that bit really annoyed me. It was too dramatic and it would've sounded so much better without the orchestra.

Anyway, back to Kavvy fainting, ROTFLMAO!!! :P

iLemon
December 12th, 2005, 03:43 AM
btw, when they were looking for the Goa'uld why couldnt they have just done a scan? It would've been easier and simpler and save a lot of time :S

Callie
December 12th, 2005, 04:21 AM
Where was the Tea Service of Impending Death? I just rewatched Thirty Eight Minutes and there was the big scene when Halling and his cronies brought in a tray of what looked like afternoon tea to help Teyla prepare for death, saying that it was a big deal among the Athosians to have a ritual prayer ceremony when they knew they were about to die.

I suppose they could have had the ceremony for Charin offscreen and shortly before she died – maybe even before she was moved into the Infirmary – but rewatching the earlier episode reminded me that it was missing.

ToasterOnFire
December 12th, 2005, 06:41 AM
Kavanagh- love him even more, now. :) He's still a complete jackass, and yet now we have a glimpse of something more going on. My guess as for why he's always hanging around Novak is that he has a "thing" for her (this could be why he keeps going back and forth- more time to spend with her). But being the arrogant prick that he is, he could never admit it and can't lower his guard enough to tell her how he feels.
Aw Shadow, your shippy side is peeking out!! Who's making the Kav/Novak thread? :D ;)


Oh, and TOF, forget the whole "people questioning Weir's authority get the smackdown" thing, let's look at anyone who tries to usurp Shep's authority: the first two get wraithed and now Caldwell is snaked. Dangerous job, being a military commander in Atlantis...
Yeah, there is that unfortunate theme as well. Thank goodness Caldwell wasn't killed and that he gets fixed and appears in later eps this season. I just hope they don't kill him off later. I'd much rather see Caldwell reach an understanding with Weir and Shep and everyone help each other. After all, both Weir and Shep were thrown into these jobs a bit unprepared and Caldwell does have a lot of expertise, especially with military matters. The whole "Caldwell doesn't like how Weir and Shep run Atlantis. He's such a meanie!!" attitude doesn't sit well with me.


Where was the Tea Service of Impending Death? I just rewatched Thirty Eight Minutes and there was the big scene when Halling and his cronies brought in a tray of what looked like afternoon tea to help Teyla prepare for death, saying that it was a big deal among the Athosians to have a ritual prayer ceremony when they knew they were about to die.
Bwa! :D
I think that the main difference here is that Teyla's "grannie" was about to die from natural causes, something quite rare with Athosians. Halling et al knew that Teyla was proabably going to die in 38 Minutes so they had time to prepare a ritual, but her death still would have been unnatural. So it's really more the Tea Service of Unnatural Impending Death. :D

Purpleyin
December 12th, 2005, 07:11 AM
Aw Shadow, your shippy side is peeking out!! Who's making the Kav/Novak thread? :D ;)

Bwa! :D
I think that the main difference here is that Teyla's "grannie" was about to die from natural causes, something quite rare with Athosians. Halling et al knew that Teyla was proabably going to die in 38 Minutes so they had time to prepare a ritual, but her death still would have been unnatural. So it's really more the Tea Service of Unnatural Impending Death. :D
Makes me wonder if they also have some kind of ceremony for 'hey, look, you almost died but survived...'

Infact now I'm getting ideas about zombie legends...

And don't tempt me on Kavanagh/Novak - I have fanfic100 for Kav so it'd be more than possible for me to use one of them as that...

prion
December 12th, 2005, 08:20 AM
Where was the Tea Service of Impending Death? I just rewatched Thirty Eight Minutes and there was the big scene when Halling and his cronies brought in a tray of what looked like afternoon tea to help Teyla prepare for death, saying that it was a big deal among the Athosians to have a ritual prayer ceremony when they knew they were about to die.

I suppose they could have had the ceremony for Charin offscreen and shortly before she died – maybe even before she was moved into the Infirmary – but rewatching the earlier episode reminded me that it was missing.

Charan's ceremony was for someone dying of NATURAL CAUSES. Teyla (in "38 Minutes") wasn't. However, she did know when she might die, hence the ceremony. However, dying of old age is probably a rarity in the Pegasus Galaxy!:D

PG15
December 12th, 2005, 11:48 AM
btw, when they were looking for the Goa'uld why couldnt they have just done a scan? It would've been easier and simpler and save a lot of time :S

They didn't know it was a Gould, they just thought it was a human Trust agent.

Cynicat
December 12th, 2005, 02:04 PM
I think that the main difference here is that Teyla's "grannie" was about to die from natural causes, something quite rare with Athosians. Halling et al knew that Teyla was proabably going to die in 38 Minutes so they had time to prepare a ritual, but her death still would have been unnatural. So it's really more the Tea Service of Unnatural Impending Death. :D

What they did for Charan was more like a whole Sweets Trolley of Natural Death, with all the trimmings. :D

AcidSquid
December 13th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Okay, Theres a bomb in Atlantis, UH OH
The SGC is trying to do everything they can to stop it
Mr Somthingrather says the bomb goes off when the worm hole is established,
Why not adjust the Iris closer inward to (bury the gate)

AcidSquid
December 13th, 2005, 12:24 PM
It would make more sense.

kirmit
December 13th, 2005, 12:28 PM
It would make more sense.

yes sense and time, they only had 3 hours or sumthing remember.

AcidSquid
December 13th, 2005, 12:30 PM
Hmmm, Dig a damn whole and throw the damn gate into it, then, pour some dirt ontop.

Gatz
December 13th, 2005, 12:31 PM
or just dial somewhere else to gain some time

alfirin_kirinki
December 13th, 2005, 12:36 PM
It would make more sense.

It would also make sense to edit your own post to add this comment in, instead of giving the impression that you are working on your post count and bumping your thread.

Also: no, it wouldn't make sense. The wormhole would surely still be established, it would just mean that nothing could pass through. Think about Suspicion, when Teyla says that if the iris is not opened she will be forced to pass through the gate/jump into the wormhole and kill both herself and Aiden.

AcidSquid
December 13th, 2005, 12:41 PM
It would also make sense to edit your own post to add this comment in, instead of giving the impression that you are working on your post count and bumping your thread.

Also: no, it wouldn't make sense. The wormhole would surely still be established, it would just mean that nothing could pass through. Think about Suspicion, when Teyla says that if the iris is not opened she will be forced to pass through the gate/jump into the wormhole and kill both herself and Aiden.
lol No, Increasing the iris's closeness to the gate would be the same as burying the gate.

alfirin_kirinki
December 13th, 2005, 12:43 PM
lol No, Increasing the iris's closeness to the gate would be the same as burying the gate.

And is this canon or a supposition on your part?

GatetheWay
December 13th, 2005, 07:21 PM
It's canon. The SGC did it in '48 Hours' in order to preserve Teal'c's pattern in the crystals.

I think that it wouldn't of mattered if they had barried the gate. Either Atlantis would still use the power of the ZPM, therefore blow up, to get a failed dialing or they would of just dialed to MW Alpha site instead.

eccscape
December 16th, 2005, 12:10 AM
Caldwell- had him pegged as a suspect at the beginning

Yup, couldn't be kav-too obvious. couldn't be cadman-rodney was at her too much!! (mind you, she was the only real other option. it was never gonna be kav)


I HATED HATED HATED that whole song sequence. HATED it. I'm sorry. It felt MASSIVELY out of place. If it had been a solo voice without accompaniment (or with only subdued instrumentals) that'd be one thing, but full orchestration AND back-up vocals??

i thought it was a bit strong too, but it was actually the main vocal that annoyed me. if they'd just had the orchestration and tribal voice(but toned down a bit) without the solo, it would have worked a bit better for me.


Cadman- I liked her better in Duet.The character has potential, she deserves better than this.

Yeah, i didn't like her in this at all really, except in the final climax. She seemed alot different from the character portrayed in Duet. I hope they steer back a bit there.


I want there to be as little leakage as possible between the two.

I think you and i are in the minority there. I mean the whole original Atlantis idea was to cut them off!!!!

But i liked this episode. it's the first up point since Aurora

The Engineer
December 16th, 2005, 09:48 AM
IMO it was an weird episode, there was no real sense of perril.
The song ruined the very little tension that TPTB tried to simulate not because of the song's quality but because its use was so UnStargate, so corny, so inappropriate, so anticlimactic, so B category. That moment was so painful too mee. But not as worse as Grace Under Pressure.
The Goa'uld threat was glued badly it was like trying to glue wood and stone. Logical yes, but glued. Bleah.
The moments from Stargate Command were like sequences from another kind of show.
Bad bad bad crossover. The Pilot (Rising) was better (if we can consider it a crossover). SG1 and Atlantis are family but crossovers don't work. (It remainds me of The X-Files 9x15 Jump the Shark also a bad crossover - ironic isn't it?)

ShadowMaat
December 16th, 2005, 12:35 PM
i thought it was a bit strong too, but it was actually the main vocal that annoyed me. if they'd just had the orchestration and tribal voice(but toned down a bit) without the solo, it would have worked a bit better for me.
Good idea. That would have been even better. The song was in all ways perfectly awful and completely inappropriate. And JARRING. Rachel might have a good voice (I was too busy grinding my teeth to listen and am not a good judge, anyway) but this was absolutely NOT the place to flex her chords. Wrong, wrong, WRONG. Oooo, I cannot say enough how much I despised that song.

The Engineer
December 16th, 2005, 12:47 PM
I forgot. The usage of the song was also so cheesy, so pathetic, so akward.

GatetheWay
December 16th, 2005, 02:29 PM
I liked it. I thought it added to the tention.

The Engineer
December 16th, 2005, 02:44 PM
yeah, but also my discontempt towards that particular part of that episode.

When I first heard it I said: O-o something new.
later: hope this doesn't keep any longer.
later much too later (IMO): it did, crap.
much much too later: it was too late, it ruined the episode.

a week later: another painful episode, even more painfull than this one (to my surprise).

GatetheWay
December 16th, 2005, 04:36 PM
Well, if you just listen to the song all the way though there isn't very much singing mostly instruments so it could over lap other scenes. It really isn't that long of a song at all.

NakedJehutyV2
December 16th, 2005, 05:15 PM
aussies already watching part 2 of season 2?

The Engineer
December 16th, 2005, 10:11 PM
Well, if you just listen to the song all the way though there isn't very much singing mostly instruments so it could over lap other scenes. It really isn't that long of a song at all.
For me it was.
Time is relative. Painfull moments last longer.

Cynicat
December 16th, 2005, 10:59 PM
aussies already watching part 2 of season 2?

Only with the help of really awesome friends/relatives in Canada who send us tapes ;)

Australia is only up to the end of season one, with no season two on the horizon just yet... *shakes fist at channel 7, who wouldn't recognise a good thing if it jumped through the stargate and bit them on the arse*

telpethoniel
December 17th, 2005, 10:35 PM
I am just writing to compliment the writers and actors on another extraordinary episode, it was awesome:D
How come there are so many people on these forums pointing out the points (in extreeme terms) that they didn't like, why can't people apreciate it for what it is:rolleyes: (the negative people speak loud and the positive stay quiet)
After all they (cast and crew of Stargate) are doing a far better job than many of us (not all of us) could
Again, this is just a curiosity statement, definitely not an insult:cool:

I fully understand that everyone is entitled to voice their opinion but not to the point of an insult (I'm not insulted;) ).

Oh and by the way, I thought Rachel sounded divine and it worked perfectly with the rest of the episode

iLemon
January 2nd, 2006, 03:34 AM
When they were questioning people to find out if they had were a Goa'uld why didn't they just scan them instead? :confused:

SmallTimePerson
January 2nd, 2006, 03:49 AM
When they were questioning people to find out if they had were a Goa'uld why didn't they just scan them instead? :confused:
i do not think they have/had gould scanners in atlantis. Also the person that helped rewrite the atlantis OS so the ZPM overloaded by bringing the OS may just be working for the gould, without the parasite.

TheCaptain
January 2nd, 2006, 04:34 AM
i do not think they have/had gould scanners in atlantis. Also the person that helped rewrite the atlantis OS so the ZPM overloaded by bringing the OS may just be working for the gould, without the parasite.
Yes, it seemed like quite a concerted effort on the part of the Trust, and we know too that many forces that are at their command are extremely intelligent, competent humans. The Trust wanted to shut off one potential threat to their galaxy, that Atlantis, in thei own eyes, provided - the Wraith threat ON TOP OF the Ori must have been too much for them.

It would have been well within their reach to set up something like this - and the fact that they almost succeeded in destroying Atlantis shows that they set this up quite intricately over a long period of time.

I wonder, though, for just how long the Goa'uld operative Caldwell was actually infected by a symbiote...

Capt

Xmen583
January 2nd, 2006, 05:34 AM
i have a theory,

it is possible that caldwell went back to earth for more supplies and we don't know how he got infested with the goa'uld while on earth. it is possible that trusts took caldwell and infested him with. they knew the Atlantis is a biggest treats to them. thaty why the goa;uld want to destory it or let the wraith get to the new feeding ground : Earth.

TheCaptain
January 2nd, 2006, 05:58 AM
i have a theory,

it is possible that caldwell went back to earth for more supplies and we don't know how he got infested with the goa'uld while on earth. it is possible that trusts took caldwell and infested him with. they knew the Atlantis is a biggest treats to them. thaty why the goa;uld want to destory it or let the wraith get to the new feeding ground : Earth.
Yep well, good call there :D

....about Caldwell being infected sometime back on Earth, when he went back on one of his regular round-trips to the MW galaxy and back to Pegasus. He could have been infected from the start, too, but I choose to believe he wasn't

I wouldn't say the dangers posed by Atlantis' continued existance, with the ever-present danger of the Wraith getting back to Earth, is the BIGGEST threat out there to the Trust, with the Ori zippin about the place - but it is one place they can at least have a go at taking out... which they did in Critical Mass, and only just failed in accomplishing their overall goal
Capt

Taonas
January 2nd, 2006, 04:58 PM
When they were questioning people to find out if they had were a Goa'uld why didn't they just scan them instead? :confused:
They were all convinced that it was just a regular human whom they were dealing with.

It's towards the begining of the episode when Gen. Landry, Dr.Lee and Agent Barrett are talking.

morph166955
January 4th, 2006, 12:50 PM
ok they said in critical mass that the zpm needed fail safes to prevent an overload when they dial home. they have so far dialed pegasus twice from the sgc using a zpm. did they know enough on earth to put failsafes in or is this just one of those things we dont ask questions about.

then if that is the case that their device had failsafes then why couldnt they have used the device from rising that they put the zpm in to power the gate (im assuming they can build one on atlantis if they dont have one or take the one out of the deadelus that was used to bring that to pegasus) to power the city and wire it similarly to the way that they wired the naq. generators up.

eh?

Wraith_Hunter
January 4th, 2006, 01:15 PM
The ZPM had been rigged to explode upon dialling of Earth. The ones that the SGC used in 'Rising' & 'The Siege II' didn't have a tainted system like that of Atlantis. That's the simple reason why it didn't explode.

morph166955
January 4th, 2006, 02:10 PM
see thats wrong. mckay said that the failsafes were in place to prevent any system from drawing too much energy from the zpm and creating an overload. he also said that opening a wormhole to another galaxy was significnatly enough to cause an instantaneous overload as opposed to when the dampeners started which were slowly causing the overload. the zpm wasnt rigged to explode when they dialed earth it was rigged to allow an overload to happen. had they not dialed earth and say raised the shield or started another system of equal power requirements it would have still gone boom. my question is since mckay said that there was sufficenetly enough power taken to open the worm hole then why did it not happen on earth and why could they not have used there own zpm interface to power the city.

AcidSquid
January 4th, 2006, 06:20 PM
Ugh,
Humans Reverse engineered the power intergration system from the ancient outpost 'Atlantus' with built-in failsafes to stop the zpm from over-loading and exploding.
And stop being so snobby.

morph166955
January 4th, 2006, 07:54 PM
ok that answers the first question...thank you.

but that brings up my second question...why couldnt they have utilized something like that and interfaced it with the power of atlantis to prevent the explosion? they proved they can interface with the power with the naq. generators.

Steven_the_Atlantean
January 4th, 2006, 09:50 PM
I LOVED THIS EPOSIDE

lol macay - hey, look whos back, mr mum how was the kids:P
and also Teyla had an awesome voice:D

Steve_the_Wraith
January 5th, 2006, 01:39 AM
Uh because they didn't have the time - Critical Mass took place over a couple of hours, while they were preparing for the Atlantis expedition for months

P-90_177
January 5th, 2006, 01:44 AM
You guys ever thought that you're too smart for your own good?

NakedJehutyV2
January 5th, 2006, 10:38 AM
dialing to pegasus isn't drawing that much power to cause that

dragongt
January 15th, 2006, 05:30 PM
Caldwell is the Gou’ld?

Ok. If he is a Gou'ld and want Atlantis to blow up then why he ordered the ship to turn around and relay the message? If he did not relay the message to Atlantis then his plan would have suceed. If he is questioned by his superior then he can just tell them that he didn't want to risk his ship blowing up with the hyper drive modification. It would be a better ending if somebody else was a Gou'ld though I have to admit that wasn't expected.

PG15
January 15th, 2006, 10:30 PM
But they would never accept that excuse, since it's possible that it WON'T blow up.

Also, hundreds of people's lives were at stake.

walterIsTheMan
January 20th, 2006, 05:56 PM
OMG that music was horrible. I muted the TV. But Caldwell as the goa'uld, there's a twist.

Cinephilic TV Addict
January 20th, 2006, 06:01 PM
Up until the 'musical number' i was thinking this is a good episode (not great).

Then, the musical started off poorly, so I was thinking a bad ending was to follow...

Then the number sort of worked, until the ceromony that teyla was performing had no meaning, then it went back to not working...

then the episode ended with a good theme...

i'm torn - right now, i won't recommend the episode - 2 1/2 stars.

but it's possibly 3 stars. i'll have to rewatch it...

AGateFan
January 20th, 2006, 06:02 PM
Zelenka and Mckay problems with the relationship?
Hey Agent Barrett
Hey Dr Lee…. I guess that answers the whole transmitter debate.
Cadman!!!
101 Dalmatians… LOTR…. LOL, LOL… that was great.
Pony tail boy is back… he’s already annoying me
Good Hermoid. Slap down pony tail boy LOL, That too was great.

Zelenka stuck with kids.
Ronan - Gou’ald they that was actually pretty much what I figured his reaction would be. I guess Telya and Beckett were sent off so as not to be in this ep?And just as I say that we get some Beckett\Telya.
Some Beckett and Teyla story.. It’s nice. But teyla needs to learn to let go.

Why transmit to call the wraith if you don’t want the wraith to get the city. Hmmmm
Walter…. Lots of SGC in this episode.

Goa’uld wouldn’t kill themselves? Lt Cadman, Rodney, Rodney, Rodney... he needs to let the Cadman thing go.

Caldwell and Weir still don’t get along.
Pony tail boy has no friends…ooohhh poor pony tail boy. Why is he still wearing a communicator? Dang he is freaking annoying… This actor does a great job because I HATE this character… kudos to him.
Nice little Teyla back-ground.

Where are the hiccups Novak… there we go.
Hermoid…was she going to say Hermoid? oh pony tail guy…kinda creepy… haha.

Like a Dam.. and a spillway… funny interaction.
Mckay can be as annoying as pony tail boy sometimes.

Dang pony tail boy is JUST ANNOYING.
Oh, here we go… we had this storyline on B5…hope Dr. Beckett makes a better decision then Dr Franklin.

Ronan volunteers to talk to pony tail boy. Shep and Caldwell on board.
Cadman is trying to help save Atlantis. Bet she helps save the day just so Mckay can get shown up again.

Morals… does no one have morals anymore? Poor pony tail boy.
Ok, now I am sick of the Teyla thing…. Lets get this over with before I have to mute my TV.

Haha, Cadman to save the day!
God I despise it when people sing on TV shows. I mean Despise. I think I hate it worse then shipping people.

Pony tail boy fainted…. Funny.
Caldwell? Actually, sadly, I already new that.
Hes a Goa’uld that sinks.
Now, Ronan kicking his az that was fun.

Last second they save the day.
Zelenka… ahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!
Beaming out the goa’uld… why not just use a Thors Hammer?

That was good, not awesome or anything but nice and fun… Good Job Carl Binder.

Daniel's_twin
January 20th, 2006, 06:06 PM
That was amazing! Truly the absolute best episode of this season IMHO thus far. First off, it won massive points for me by bringing that LotR reference (the twilight bark? What was Lee thinking?). The parts with Hermie were classic, as was seeing hiccup-girl doing her thing once more. Laughed my head off in her interrogation. The constant back-and-forth of how the Goa'uld was going to destroy the city. Liked also the fact that they still do acknowledge that the city is really a spaceship.

The emotional story of Teyla was very good. I really liked how they are continuing to flesh out her character. The slight glimpse that we got into Athosian society was cool. I liked the old lady. She was sweet. I really felt for Teyla here. I loved the last ten minutes. The dress Teyla wore was beautiful (my sister is wishing she owns it) and the song was wonderful. The way they incorporated the song with the rest of the story was absolutely teriffic. I do hope that Caldwell will be alright.

Of course, the humerous parts were good, too. Zelenka was brief, but O so sweet. Kavanaugh fainting was excellent, though I wish that he would stay that way forever.

Overall, this is actually the first episode of Atlantis that actually ties with SG-1, and it is a definite improvement over last week's episode. I give this its fully deserved five out of five stars. :cool:

BigGator5
January 20th, 2006, 06:06 PM
OMG that music was horrible. I muted the TV. But Caldwell as the goa'uld, there's a twist.

How could you not like the music or the singing? I thought that was the highlight of the episode...

The return of Dr. Zelenka (Shep: What did you do to him? Ronon: Nothing. He just fainted.), Caldwell turning out to be the Goa'uld, and Teyla's awesome voice? This had me on the edge of my seat and before I knew it, the episode ended leaving me holding my breath!

http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/arrow2.gif 9/9

nccjones
January 20th, 2006, 06:20 PM
Wow is about all I can say. This is by far the best episode they have done. Col Caldwell! I would never have suspected. I had a notion that it wasn't Cavanaugh but possible Cadman...what's with all the C'?...anyway, I digress.

Ok...this episode definately had me on the edge of my seat. I didn't even mind Teyla's "B" story for a change. I normally don't like anything that has to do with Teyla or Ronan...but this one touched me. Her singing was fabulous! It also added to the tension as they were trying to figure out the code. Perfect performance.

Ok...I know I'll be jumped on for this one so I'm ducking as I type...Ronan...I'm still trying to figure out why he's even there. oooooh...he was so menacing coming through door. Oh well, I'll reserve any other comments on that matter.

But...it gets my best ever episode vote today.

katrin
January 20th, 2006, 06:28 PM
JUST seen the show and abosolutely LOVED it felt sorry for teyla loosing her grandmother figure and also thought pauls reaction was totally great!!!!!!!

Abosolutely GREAT !!!
LOVED RACHELS SINGING AHHHHH *SIGHS*

anyone havent seen it i would strongly suggest this ep to see if you dont see any other ones in season two

GREAT AWSOME WONDERFULL LOVED IT

WOOOOOOHOOOOOO GOO ATLANTIS GOOOOOO

Arative
January 20th, 2006, 06:37 PM
I liked this episode
Gotta love Hermiod ***** slapping Cavanugh. That guy is just like everyone's favorite punching bag.

I think I could have done without the singing though, the music was cool. It was nice to see more of athosian society, as well as their funeral rites. As Teyla said, its unusual for someone to die of natural causes around the Wraith.

Liked the twist of Caldwell being a gou'ald but does that mean he's gone from the show? Because I was just begining to like his character. Will we find out when he became a gou'ald? Is Hermiod going to suceed in beaming the gou'ald out of his head?

Daniel's Sister
January 20th, 2006, 06:39 PM
I loved this ep!
The parts with Zelenka were so funny :zelenka: And I found it amazing how much he didn't like kids.:zelenkaanime07:
Then when we found out that Colonel Caldwell was a Goa'uld was really cool.
And I also loved the part when John comes rushing in and asks Ronon 'Whoa, stop!' and Ronon replies ' He fainted. I didn't even touch him' :ronon:
And best of all, I loved the part when Teyla sang. I knew that Rachel could sing, but I didn't know how good her voice was.:teyla25: That was the best part for me.
And, you gotta wonder. Why did Cadmen want to stay in Atlantis all of a sudden. I would want to get as far away from Rodney and have some more time to myself. But, I'm quiet sure Rodney was thinking this: :mckayanime17: about Cadmen.
And I think I speak for all when I say: I loved it when Hermiod told Kavanah to shut it!
So all in all this was a great episode! :zelenka25:

MarshAngel
January 20th, 2006, 06:40 PM
The singing was lovely but it was way too overpowering. I wish they'd skipped the loud background music and just let her sing, in the room. Other than that it was pretty good. I don't think I could hate Cavanaugh more.

The whole Caldwell thing was totally unexpected for me and then it just all made sense.

Poor sweet Zelenka. I love that poor tortured man.

SG1Atlantis
January 20th, 2006, 06:40 PM
This episode was surprisingly good. I'm usually skeptical about crossover eps but this had just the right amount of the Earth. I thought it would just be like collateral damage in SG-1 where its only "find who did it". But I'm glad I was wrong.
Good points:
-McKay and Cadman interaction....hilarious.
-Beckett and Cadman...cute.
-Zelenka's face being painted was great!
-Caldwell as the Goa'uld though I suspected it was either him, Kavanaugh (spelling?) or Cadman.
-Surpisingly enough Teyla's singing. When I first heard her I was kinda worried it would be terrible but it added some nice drama to the episode at the end and the music was cool.So not too bad.
-Weir and Shepp interaction and Weir's regret for almost using torture.
-Heimdol telling Kavanaugh to stop talking...brilliant!

Bad Points:
-Like a lot of other people, I thought this episode was rushed. TPTB are beginning to make a habit of that. The ep spends a lot of time building up the plot but then only spends like the last 8-10 minutes resolving it. And that's really the only part that was wrong w/the ep.

Overall 4.5 out of 5

not so ancient
January 20th, 2006, 06:42 PM
OMG OMG OMG. I'm an American who has remained unspoiled for the parts of Atlantis that have already aired in Canada.

I really was NOT expecting Caldwell to be a Go'a'uld. .

Mitch Pileggi played that perfectly. I was very encouraged that they were working to save him from the invading Go'a'uld at the end.

I am really hoping and praying this is not the end of Mitch Pileggi's run with the series. It was much stronger for his presence.

Anyone know what's next for Caldwell?

doombringer333
January 20th, 2006, 07:13 PM
It was a good ep - "goa'uld infiltrators" always makes a good episode.

One thing bugs me though - just how strong is Ronon? He totally creamed the Caldwell goa'uld, but in Season 6's "Prometheus" the Colonel Simmons goa'uld was beating the crap out of both O'Neill and Tealc. In desperation, O'Neill opened the airlock in order to kill him.

I guess he would have to be stronger than a normal human, since he went toe-to-toe with a juiced up Ford. I guess it's a case of Ronon having superior fighting skills, but it just bugs me that a goa'uld had the crap kicked out of him so easily.

jyh
January 20th, 2006, 07:14 PM
I don't know if anyone else noticed it or would agree, but when Teyla began her ritual song, and they cut away to other scenes on Atlatnis, it almost felt like an episode of BattleStar Galactica. Especially with the bombshell of Col. Caldwell being inhabited by a Goa'uld. I can honestly say I didn't see that coming. It was obvious, with both Cadman & Kavenaugh being seen early in the episode, that they would both be suspects to some degree. (And I have a feeling this isn't the last we'll hear from Kavenaugh about what happened. At least he was never actually tortured.)

It was good to see Gen. Landry & Walter in this ep, but I was REALLY glad to see Agent Barrett. I always liked him and still think he & Carter would be good together.

BTW, I absolutely LOVED the scene in which Dr. Lee is explaining how they can communicate with Atlantis, and he mentions the Twilight Bark from "101 Dalmations." Everyone looks at him blankly. Then, inspired, Lee said, "Oh, I have it. It's like in 'Lord of the Rings'....." And suddenly, everyone in the room, mostly scientists & mathematicians, understands exactly what he means. A great geek reference. Loved it! :)

And by the way, I've been gone from the boards for a while, so may I just say these are the craziest icons. :eek:

NakedJehutyV2
January 20th, 2006, 07:16 PM
great ep but the BSG ep after it owned all tonight.

teyla can really sing damn.
ronon seems to be as strong as a wraith without the drug.

NakedJehutyV2
January 20th, 2006, 07:18 PM
BTW, I absolutely LOVED the scene in which Dr. Lee is explaining how they can communicate with Atlantis, and he mentions the Twilight Bark from "101 Dalmations." Everyone looks at him blankly. Then, inspired, Lee said, "Oh, I have it. It's like in 'Lord of the Rings'....." And suddenly, everyone in the room, mostly scientists & mathematicians, understands exactly what he means. A great geek reference. Loved it! :)

And by the way, I've been gone from the boards for a while, so may I just say these are the craziest icons. :eek:


yeah that was absolutely awesome and funny as hell.

too bad there's no more hermiod muttering in asgard anymore that was funny

gambit
January 20th, 2006, 07:24 PM
It was a good ep - "goa'uld infiltrators" always makes a good episode.

One thing bugs me though - just how strong is Ronon? He totally creamed the Caldwell goa'uld, but in Season 6's "Prometheus" the Colonel Simmons goa'uld was beating the crap out of both O'Neill and Tealc. In desperation, O'Neill opened the airlock in order to kill him.


Well, if I remember, Caldwell didn't even try to defend himself.

NakedJehutyV2
January 20th, 2006, 07:31 PM
goauld arrogence did that. didn't expect ronon to own him with his strength. caught off guard if you will

not so ancient
January 20th, 2006, 07:42 PM
One more thing I forgot.

This is small, but honestly, it's getting distracting.

Someone please, for the love of Goddess, do something about Torri Higginson's hair. It needs to either curl or be straight. It needs to be short or long but not where it is now. The current look makes Atlantis's leader look like she spends 20 minutes a day asking McKay to iinterface Ancient technology with a bad 1970s curling iron. She needs to drop back to earth for a cut, condition and stop making her hair look like a poorly fussed with mess.

And her shade of lip gloss is amazingly, astoundingly, horrifyingly wrong. She has auburn hair and hazel eyes. She wears red. She cannot wear peach gloss. Run, don't walk, and get a tube of Clinique Black Honey. It'd look great on her. We have the same colouring, except my eyes are brown. It'll work, trust me.

Torri Higginson is a lovely woman and a good actress.

Elizabeth Weir is a good character and also a lovely woman.

The show is doing them a huge disservice with this current look. It's just not acceptable.

Droops
January 20th, 2006, 08:04 PM
I actually enjoyed this episode more than I thought it would. I was already spoiled that Teyla would sing, and had resigned to hating it.

Well, I didn't. Actually I liked that song as background to the end. Different than what you get on most shows (with some sort of dramatic music in the background). Had a strange Celtic feeling to it, folky.

Great plot twist! Loved Kavanaugh in this one, he played a heck of a part.

This was better than last week by far. Nice character work, plot development, etc. Good stuff.

PG15
January 20th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Ok guys, from advanced Canadian airing, we know that Caldwell will be back in "The Long Goodbye"

NakedJehutyV2
January 20th, 2006, 08:12 PM
and in charge while, well you know

FoolishPleasure
January 20th, 2006, 08:13 PM
I don't know if anyone else noticed it or would agree, but when Teyla began her ritual song, and they cut away to other scenes on Atlatnis, it almost felt like an episode of BattleStar Galactica.
I noticed that as well. BSG uses lots of Celtic-type music, and they do it better. But I didn't hate the song as much as I thought I would, probably because the rest of the episode was so good.

Good to see our dear friend Dr. Kavanagh again, and I hope we do see him in season 3. He has a score to settle with Ronon. *snicker*

Poor Caldwell - didn't see that one coming, and for an instant I was afraid Col. "Skinner" was a goner. Good to hear he was okay afterwards.

Good McKay scenes. Absolutely love Cadman. Bring her back, please! And poor Zelenka - I just love the guy. :weir:

Good episode. Not up to SG1's "Ripple Effect", but big improvement over last week.

Bobthespirit
January 20th, 2006, 09:03 PM
Teyla: You want me to sing? But I can't sing!
Shepherd: That's okay. Just take a lesson from an earth woman named 'Ashlee Simpson'.

Decent episode..interesting who the gu'ald was. It doesn't quite make sense though, because he has had plenty of other opportunities to hurt Atlantis.

Though, I HATE that cheesy 'We're no different than them' stuff that's been cropping up in just about every scifi or fantasy series ever.

Okay. The wraithe feed on millions of millions of innocent people and terrorize their entire galaxy, and want to terrorize yours, turning your entire planet's population into livestock.

YOU just start mistrusting people when you know for a fact one of your friends is an enemy agent, and tortured a gu'ald who has been trying to kill all of you and has been involved in trying to destroy your planet for the last eight and a half years. There's a difference..

So yes. You are indeed entitled to a HUGE moral high ground above the wraithe. PLEASE keep that cliche angstry, broody JUNK out of Stargate!! I'd like to see it gone from all TV, all movies, all animes, and all RPGs. It's just gotten so old!

Daniel's_twin
January 20th, 2006, 09:09 PM
Teyla: You want me to sing? But I can't sing!
Shepherd: That's okay. Just take a lesson from an earth woman named 'Ashlee Simpson'.

Decent episode..interesting who the gu'ald was. It doesn't quite make sense though, because he has had plenty of other opportunities to hurt Atlantis.

Though, I HATE that cheesy 'We're no different than them' stuff that's been cropping up in just about every scifi or fantasy series ever.

Okay. The wraithe feed on millions of millions of innocent people and terrorize their entire galaxy, and want to terrorize yours, turning your entire planet's population into livestock.

YOU just start mistrusting people when you know for a fact one of your friends is an enemy agent, and tortured a gu'ald who has been trying to kill all of you and has been involved in trying to destroy your planet for the last eight and a half years. There's a difference..

So yes. You are indeed entitled to a HUGE moral high ground above the wraithe. PLEASE keep that cliche angstry, broody JUNK out of Stargate!! I'd like to see it gone from all TV, all movies, all animes, and all RPGs. It's just gotten so old!

Well I think part of it would be that they wanna make sure that the characters want to make sure they keep themselves in moral check. You can complain about it, but it is a valid point. I don't think they nearly stooped down to Wraith level, but they do need to make sure that they don't cross too many lines too many times. :cool:

GateTrek2004
January 21st, 2006, 12:30 AM
Does anyone know what that song title that teyla sung was called or who originally wrote/sung it? I have a friend who loved teyla's song, as did i, who wants to know. Thanks!

riffcold
January 21st, 2006, 12:43 AM
Does anyone know what that song title that teyla sung was called or who originally wrote/sung it? I have a friend who loved teyla's song, as did i, who wants to know. Thanks!

"Beyond the Night" written by Joel Goldsmith, but Rachel Luttrell/Teyla is still the original singer.


Here's an mp3 of it (http://s5.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2Z4DSZQXAXQYM3JWMP2JC6RV2K) :teyla:

prion
January 21st, 2006, 04:54 AM
One more thing I forgot.

This is small, but honestly, it's getting distracting.

Someone please, for the love of Goddess, do something about Torri Higginson's hair. It needs to either curl or be straight. It needs to be short or long but not where it is now. The current look makes Atlantis's leader look like she spends 20 minutes a day asking McKay to iinterface Ancient technology with a bad 1970s curling iron. She needs to drop back to earth for a cut, condition and stop making her hair look like a poorly fussed with mess.

And her shade of lip gloss is amazingly, astoundingly, horrifyingly wrong. She has auburn hair and hazel eyes. She wears red. She cannot wear peach gloss. Run, don't walk, and get a tube of Clinique Black Honey. It'd look great on her. We have the same colouring, except my eyes are brown. It'll work, trust me.

Torri Higginson is a lovely woman and a good actress.

Elizabeth Weir is a good character and also a lovely woman.

The show is doing them a huge disservice with this current look. It's just not acceptable.

HAHAHAH! Oh, join the club. She's got the same stylist as Amanda Tapping apparently, who can take a woman's hair and turn it into a rat's nest. I can understand Weir's hair being a little frayed, but Sam looks like she purposefully sticks it in an oven and bakes it. I have no idea what the stylists are thinking or what they're smoking.

nccjones
January 21st, 2006, 05:13 AM
-Surpisingly enough Teyla's singing. When I first heard her I was kinda worried it would be terrible but it added some nice drama to the episode at the end and the music was cool.So not too bad.


I agree. The second she started singing I was like OH NO! They're ruining the show! But then it all fit together and I have say Bravo Zulu to the writers and producers. It was beautifully done and totally added to the drama. They took a risk by doing this and I think they passed with flying colors. :teyla:

nccjones
January 21st, 2006, 05:16 AM
I don't know if anyone else noticed it or would agree, but when Teyla began her ritual song, and they cut away to other scenes on Atlatnis, it almost felt like an episode of BattleStar Galactica.

It didn't to me because I don't watch Battlestar Galactica :) The minute I heard they made my darling Starbuck into a female, it made me cringe so I had to bypass the show...lol.

Ziu
January 21st, 2006, 06:22 AM
Definitely one of the better shows. Loved the ending.

Looks like the future is going to be: Tauri vs Goa'uld vs Wraith

CalmStorm
January 21st, 2006, 07:00 AM
First Impressios:
-Poor Zelenka...call it a hunch, but I don't think he likes kids
-A bomb, a bomb, oh no a bomb!
-"Of course love" ....Beckett is such a sweetie.....just melts the heart
-SGC scientist guy needs to speak much faster....he's taking way too long to exlpain in scientific terms what those at the table will never understand, just look at the blank stares....his scientific explanation is taking way too much screen time....but love the Lord of the Rings reference....that was funny
-Oh good grief, Kavanaugh.....way too go Hermiod !!! you go little Asgard!
-For someone who has very little faith in his pj flying abilities, Becket sure parked that thing remarkably close to the settlement.
-Cadman's back....and toying with McKay....this will be fun
-Beautiful night shot of the city
-Those hiccups are annoying, but loved Weir's reaction to hiccup-girl
-How does Kavaaugh know Zelenka is off-world...he was on the Daedalus when Zelenka went off-world, and since he has no friends, how did he come across this little detail....it's doubtful anyone would be talking to him since his arrival.
-Certainly Beckett has heard of DNR, yet he seems to have a difficult time understanding Charin's wishes
-Poor Teyla, that's just sad to lose the last person in the world you feel connected to
-Ha Ha - Kavanaugh and Ronon....no wait.....now it's just Ronon...that's funny
-"Mr. Mom" ....love what the kids have done...somehow I don't think this is going to change Zelenka's attitude towards kids

Dannygirl
January 21st, 2006, 07:09 AM
Truth be told, I kind of wished the song hadn't been soo....studio-like. Children singing in the background, instruments where you saw none. I would have loved to hear Telya's voice and nothing else, esp. since it looked like she was the only one singing. The words of the song as well as the ceremony struck me as humble, so their livening up the song seemed out of place slightly. But other than that, it was lovely, if not fitting. Them cutting to other parts of Atlantis was good IMO. I don't watch BSG so I can only judge based on taste and editing.

As for what Weir said in the end about being just like them, I thought she was refering to one thing only, the infighting. They were so pleased with themselves when they helped bring about Wraith interfighting but only to discover that they have the very same problem. I do think she was right. I also think that Ripple Effect brought that point home nicely.

As for Caldwell, we have no idea when they could've placed the bug in his head. It could have been when he was temp. made Security Chief in "Conversion" for all we know. Or, it could've taken the Goa'uld some time to reconfigure the program, given Ancients created it. I thought this was a good show.

derrickh
January 21st, 2006, 08:37 AM
It was an okay ep. Mostly because it revealed a number of things.

The Athosians are basically Christian Scientists. Which is comforting in an odd way.

Weir is now a war criminal. Really, she should be removed from command immediatley and prosecuted. It's been said in no uncertain terms. 'The United States does not torture'. Period. But not only does she authorize torture, it's the torture of an innocent man who had not been convicted of any crime and the evidence against him was non-existant. It's insane that someone like that would be allowed to stay in command. Things get rough? You think you can actually exercise the rights guaranteed to you under the constitition of the United States? Don't worry, Weir will send an alien in to carve you up with a knife.

The more you sit and think about it, the more appalling her actions were. Sure Shepard was on board, but it's not his fault. His job is to offer solutions, no matter what they entail. Weir should have shown restraint and good sense and dismissed the torture idea.

The fact that Ronon didn't have time to do any damage doesn't make it okay. She okayed it. She was ready and willing to let it happen. She's guilty of a number of crimes. Was the suspect even an American? If not, whats going to happen when his government finds out that the US lead mission is allowing the torture of its citizens?

Weir should be on the next flight back to Earth...in the brig.

D

MasySyma
January 21st, 2006, 09:00 AM
It was a bad week in the SG universe for me. First, I disliked Ripple Effect, and then this episode relied on every clichee possible before ending up with a nice little bow wrapped around a bad episode.

1. Can Weir grow a backbone soon please? Either make the call or don't, but stop with the wishy washy "oh my" kind of leader where the subordinates can see her. I never thought that I would agree with the annoying man with a pony tail, but I did last night.

2. So the Trust have had at least 4-5 months in Atlantis (because we don't know when the Col. was taken over) and they wait until now to cause trouble? Then why did the good Col. agree to go to Atlantis when Weir requested his presence? He should have willingly stayed as the communication point between the bases and let the city blow up.

3. I liked the scenes with Teyla, but they didn't fit with this episode. It appeared as if the dying mentor was used to keep Teyla busy because she couldn't do anything else in this episode.

4. I liked the McKay/Cadman banter for five minutes, but it got old.

5. Ronon needs to stop being used as Sheppard's lap dog. Sheppard nods and Ronon gets to go torture someone. Yuck.

6. The clean ending weakens the episode as well. The code worked; the wraith are deceived again; and all is well. The asguard can even save the good Col. The episode was too much fairytale and not enough reality. If the asguard beaming technology can save people, why hasn't it been used to eliminate the Goa'uld who survived the end of Season 8 on the SGC side of the house? Apparently, the rest of the SGC has no use for the technology, or Hermoid is just that brillant.

Zelenka's scenes were the only funny moments of the episode. Almost everything else was either bland or bothersome.

I have been extremely disappointed by Season 2 of Atlantis. Many of the episodes look great on paper, and I'm not referring to extra spoilers; however, time and time again, the episodes are not delivering on their potential. I'm beginning to get tired of this habit.

HirogenGater
January 21st, 2006, 09:29 AM
I had no problem with the episode. Weir seemed liked someone with morals forced to do something she didn't want to do. She was faced with the problem of the entire city being destroyed. I'd be hesitant as well to use torture. Cool way to bring the Goa'uld into Atlantis, and it was nice to see tha Asgard on the ship again.

HirogenGater
January 21st, 2006, 09:33 AM
I agree. The second she started singing I was like OH NO! They're ruining the show! But then it all fit together and I have say Bravo Zulu to the writers and producers. It was beautifully done and totally added to the drama. They took a risk by doing this and I think they passed with flying colors. :teyla:

Agreed, I thought the same thing there going to ruin the episode, but it just fit well. Nice Job.

Seastallion
January 21st, 2006, 12:04 PM
:teyla: Teyla can sing..! :teylaanime03:

-Jules-
January 21st, 2006, 12:19 PM
This was def. one of the best episodes of this season for me! I loved the plot and the how the characters worked with each other. (Teyla can sing!?!?) It wasn't what I was expecting, I like that. It had a nice twist at the end and kept you guessing...
Great job, TPTB! ^_^

Dannygirl
January 21st, 2006, 01:30 PM
Agreed. Wonderful epi. 5/5

Is this Caldwell's last epi or is he on till the end of the season? I thought I read something where he was signed on for 8 ep's. This would be about 8 now, right?

I really do feel for Weir. Kavanagh accuses her of using her heart too much and not her head at Atlantis' expense. Well he got what he wanted, she used her head though I don't think he was under the impression it would ever have been against him. He didn't exactly help his situation much. Too big of an ego and mouth and too little of common sense. His lying only got himself into more trouble. I look forward to her character development.

LORD MONK
January 21st, 2006, 02:59 PM
Great ep. I loved it. I couldn't believe Weir sent Ronin in to tourture that annoying little brat. Why can't he just die. They take away Ford and leave Mr. Pig Tail. Although I didn't agree with the hole tourture thing, I had know problem when it was Caldwells turn. But I also new they would only do it enough so the host can talk then they would stop. If the Pig Tailed guy didn't want to get tortured he shouldn't have acted like a little baby and whine about how know one like likes and tried to help instead of fight. I want him to be fed on.

Love the twist at the end. This ep. Rocked which is good because SG-1 was horrable

BigGator5
January 21st, 2006, 03:41 PM
I agree. The second she started singing I was like OH NO! They're ruining the show! But then it all fit together and I have say Bravo Zulu to the writers and producers. It was beautifully done and totally added to the drama. They took a risk by doing this and I think they passed with flying colors. :teyla:

Agreed. The song would either fail or succeed and the roll came to a nice and easy 7. Good job!

As to the tourture issue. I think this show was trying to make a statement, but it came off bad.

One thing, Kavanagh wasn't tourture. He fainted before Ronon could do anything. He deserved what he got, the jerk. Weir's statment about us turning on each other, was also kind of dumb. We should be blaming the Trust (or Baal), not each other.

Caldwell was also hit by a stun gun and not The Rack. Plus, he had a snake in his head. When dealing with the Goa'uld, you got to put it in your mind that you may have to kill the host.

prion
January 21st, 2006, 04:12 PM
Great ep. I loved it. I couldn't believe Weir sent Ronin in to tourture that annoying little brat. Why can't he just die. They take away Ford and leave Mr. Pig Tail. Although I didn't agree with the hole tourture thing, I had know problem when it was Caldwells turn. But I also new they would only do it enough so the host can talk then they would stop. If the Pig Tailed guy didn't want to get tortured he shouldn't have acted like a little baby and whine about how know one like likes and tried to help instead of fight. I want him to be fed on.

Love the twist at the end. This ep. Rocked which is good because SG-1 was horrable

The entire city was about 24 minutes away from being turned into dust, so Weir agreed to using 'excessive force' (Ronon went to visit Kavanagh). It's a nasty thiing to do, but was Ronon going to twist the guy's arm (literally, and twist enough and Kavanagh would spill his guts). This wasn't nasty long and involved torture, which is far worse. HOwever, we did see at the end that Weir was disturbed by the decision she made, which does fit into her character.

As for Caldwell, Sheppard came prepared, otherwise he would had to seriously damaged the 'host' in order to get past the Goa'uld. A normal human being couldn't have taken that much Tasering, but a Goa'uld infested one can until the point the Goa'uld is temporarily stunned, giving the host a chance to resurface for a chat.

Despite the misery Caldwell went through, I'm sure he said nothing bad against Sheppard or Weir in this instance as he himself said basically that desperate times call for desperate measures, or, that tough measures need to be taken, whatever.

It's a darker turn for our characters on SGA, but a realistic one. They can't always play nice in the Pegasus Galaxy. To have done so, well, the base would have been blown up.

prion
January 21st, 2006, 04:13 PM
Is this Caldwell's last epi or is he on till the end of the season? I thought I read something where he was signed on for 8 ep's. This would be about 8 now, right?

Don't worry about Caldwell :)

SciFiGeek
January 21st, 2006, 08:28 PM
Much better than last week's episode. Or the week before that. Or the week...heck, it's definitely the most engaged I've been by Atlantis in a good long while. And it even had a good payoff to boot.

This was probably the most I've gotten into an Atlantis episode all season alongside Trinity. And unfortunately, they both had the same annoyance--the side plot. No offense in general to Teyla, but I felt her sidestory really detracted from the overall episode and I found myself grinding my teeth every time it returned to her. I actually even thought the one in Trinity was decent--except that it kept interrupting the building intensity. And the ending with her singing...I think I would've like it a whole lot more (with the conglomeration of sequences) if I didn't find Teyla so flat and annoying in general. But I wanted to like it, so I'll give it that.

Big pluses? Very little Ronon. So little that it wasn't even until 15 minutes before the end of the episode that I noticed he had disappeared and suddenly realized why I liked it so much. That, added to the fact that it let the series three best and strongest characters--Weir, Sheppard, McKay--stand out. I could've used maybe slightly less of the SGC footage--fun as it was to see Landry, Walter, and Lee--but I was okay with it overall.

"Look, I hate Kavanaugh as much as the next guy, probably more..." Hee. I do love McKay. I love loving McKay and remembering why. He was so nicely utilized in this episode. Also, can I please request lots and lots of Sheppard-McKay interaction? Because you can really never have too much.

Liked the bringing of characters we haven't seen in a while--Novak (who is really growing on me), Kavanaugh, Cadman. And while I roll my eyes every time another Trust episode rolls around on SG1, this was one was surprisingly good.

Best surprise of the episode--Caldwell. I remember predicting that the mole would be Cadman, and fully expecting it to be one of the supporting characters that returned this episode, and was completely fooled by the writers. Beautiful! What's more, I remember thinking how much more interesting it would be were one of the main characters like McKay or Sheppard turn out to be the Goa'uld--and they did the next best thing. Very nice! Though now I really want to know more. How long has he been a Goa'uld? And is he going to continue his command of the Daedalus? Please don't lose him yet--he's such a great, ambiguous character.

Anyway, minimal ramblings of a semi-incoherent loon. Nice to see others liked this episode, as well.

DragonGate
January 21st, 2006, 08:43 PM
This was an excellent use of the fact that the Goa'uld can easily infiltrate us if they want to. I knew from spoilers it was Caldwell, but I agree with SciFiGeek about if it had been one of the regulars. Before I knew it was Caldwell, but after knowing it was a Goa'uld, I was thinking Sheppard.

The song was beautiful and made an excellent backdrop for the final sequence. Had a foresty, fantasy, pagan kind of feel.

Poor Zelenka! Looked like he wanted to kill Rodney.

nccjones
January 22nd, 2006, 08:49 AM
Much Big pluses? Very little Ronon. So little that it wasn't even until 15 minutes before the end of the episode that I noticed he had disappeared and suddenly realized why I liked it so much.

Man, I thought I was the only one who felt that way. I'm still trying to figure out why he's on the team. All he does is try to be menacing. I really don't think he adds any kind of value. It should be another scientist/soldier type if you ask me. They already have Xena, so why do they need Conan?

keshou
January 22nd, 2006, 08:54 AM
Late to the party and I'm sure it's all been said.

Really enjoyed this episode a lot. Good tension, nicely paced and the contrast of the Goa'uld infiltration / Teyla story was well done.

I LOVE Rodney and Zelenka's snarking. The opening bits with Zelenka leaving and then coming back (LOL on the hair and face paint) were amusing bookends to a solid show.

Also enjoyed Cadman's bits. They've really developed a great group of supporting characters on this show.

I was totally spoiled on Caldwell being the Goa'uld - not sure if I would have guessed otherwise. Reminds me of how good a villain the Goa'ulds really were. They could be anyplace at any time and look just like us.

I really loved Teyla's song and Rachel has a beautiful voice. I wish it had been a little less staged, as in not recorded in a sound studio with a choral backdrop. A more natural accapella delivery might have been more effective. But I did love the cuts back and forth between the tension at the control center and Teyla's "goodbye" to her friend.

:)

not so ancient
January 22nd, 2006, 10:03 AM
It was an okay ep. Mostly because it revealed a number of things.

The Athosians are basically Christian Scientists. Which is comforting in an odd way.

Um, no.

One does not have to be a Christian Scientist to be at the end of one's long life and wish to go peacefully, rather than enduring surgery, drastic measures, intervention, or anything other than palliative medication.

There's no indication that an Athosian would refuse almost *all* medical treatment. Halling's broken leg was set. Teyla has been under Beckett's care. So, um, not so much with the Christian Scientist thing.

And why would that be comforting?

But, never fear, for an encore, you've come up with this wonderful zinger:


Weir is now a war criminal.

Right. :S

And Teyla's a battered woman, and Ronon is a drunken abuser. Have I missed some statements of yours about McKay or Sheppard or Beckett being criminal psychotic warped sickos? If so, I'm sure you'll supply your 'diagnosis' or 'legal judgment' for our edification.

Sheesh!

not so ancient
January 22nd, 2006, 10:09 AM
I agree. The second she started singing I was like OH NO! They're ruining the show! But then it all fit together and I have say Bravo Zulu to the writers and producers. It was beautifully done and totally added to the drama. They took a risk by doing this and I think they passed with flying colors. :teyla:

I liked Teyla's storyline here a lot, but with this reservation: it didn't really feel that connected to the rest of the episode.

The music was like Loreena McKennitt. That's all good.

Dannygirl
January 22nd, 2006, 10:14 AM
Is this Caldwell's last epi or is he on till the end of the season? I thought I read something where he was signed on for 8 ep's. This would be about 8 now, right?

Don't worry about Caldwell :)

The way you said that makes me want to go to the spoilers section to find out what you meant, but I won't. You've definitely given me something to look foreward to though. :D


I really loved Teyla's song and Rachel has a beautiful voice. I wish it had been a little less staged, as in not recorded in a sound studio with a choral backdrop. A more natural accapella delivery might have been more effective. But I did love the cuts back and forth between the tension at the control center and Teyla's "goodbye" to her friend.

I agree with you on this. To have had her sing it accapella would have been beautiful. Hopefully in the future.

nccjones
January 22nd, 2006, 10:47 AM
Ok....I finally was able to watch it for a second time. This episode is definately my all time favorite. If you watch closely, and it would be hard to pick up the first time because no on suspected him, Caldwell reacts funny twice that I saw. The first time was during the first transmission from earth there is a shot of Caldwell and he turns his face and I can almost swear that his eyes are about to glow. The second time, is when hiccup girl says that earth is not where the detonator is, but on Atlantis. Caldwell definately reacts to it and it's a look like...dang, they're figuring it out. Then he goes on to say that they are to return to help with the investigation. Later on, it's him who insists on doing the investigation (which I did pick up the first time when it was revealed it was him). But those first two reactions I did not get till the second viewing.

Great acting on Mitch Peleggi's part!

HirogenGater
January 22nd, 2006, 10:58 AM
Great way to bring the Goa'uld into Atlantis. I have to admit I didn't suspect Col. Caldwell at all.

maxbo
January 22nd, 2006, 12:29 PM
I loved this episode. The only thing that could’ve made it better is if it had been a two-parter because there was so much going on that it sometimes felt a bit rushed.

So much to love:

Zelenka: Anytime he’s on is a treat and he was hilarious here. After his visit to the planet of the kids, his dislike for children will probably exceed Rodney’s.

The SG-1 Team: It was good to see the team again and Dr. Lee’s “Lord of the Rings” analogy was priceless.

Novak: Loved her.

Carson: What can I say? I love this man. From his “Of course, Luv, say no more” through his scenes with Charin and Teyla, he was a gem. Although he had trouble dealing with just standing by and allowing Charin to die, he respected her (and Teyla’s wishes) enough to not try to pressure her.

Rodney: There was just the right amount of Rodney. His role was significant, but not so much that this was the Rodney McKay hour. I also loved that he was the voice of caution during the discussion of possibly torturing Kavanaugh.

Teyla: She was incredible. Her love, her pain, her respect for Charin was beautifully portrayed. Although she would have given anything to have more time with Charin, out of respect and love for Charin, she let her go as she wished.

The Ring Ceremony: was beautiful and I loved the significance of it. A Ring ceremony must be an event that few have witnessed and to have one for the *grandmother* of the leader must have been especially poignant. It’s sort of fitting that this event was so momentous for some that, in the midst of an evacuation crisis, they chose to stay with Teyla to be a part of it.

Elizabeth and Kavanaugh: Their scenes were incredible. Kavanaugh is a great love-to-hate guy and he was on target about Elizabeth’s leadership style. She often does lead with her emotions and it’s an endearing, albeit dangerous, leadership style and she clearly realized it here. In their second scene, it’s almost as if she took his words to heart because she realized that she had to as Caldwell put it “do unpleasant things to save lives” and unfortunately for Kavanaugh that meant considering authorizing his torture.

Caldwell: Didn’t see that one coming and that scene played out well. Smart thinking on John’s part to use that tazer (or whatever it’s called) on Caldwell instead of shooting him. It’s going to be interesting to see if there is any significant difference in the way he interacts with people in the future.

Ronon and Kavanaugh: The funniest scene of the show for me.

I loved the whole bombing relay plan that the Go’uld set in place to try to destroy Atlantis. It forced everyone to try to stay sharp and also forced them to make drastic decisions. I hope the writers plan carry over some of what happened here into later episodes.

Mattathias2.0
January 22nd, 2006, 01:18 PM
I completely loved this episode (after watching it a third time in 2 days with my DVR).

This episode had so much going on in it.

I loved how alot of the teaser took place in the SGC! I loved how this episode spanned 2 galaxies... Boy have we come a long way.

1. Goa'uld infiltrate Atlantis! Awesome indeed. And for thos of us who saw SG-1 8.01/2 New Order, she has some experience with Goa'uld.

2. Teyla. I loved this part of the episode alot. It's been quite some time (I think since The Gift) that we have seen some culture regarding her people. I do think the singing was a little corny, but it was better than nothing.

3. Interrogations. I wasn't surprised she interrogated that dude who dislikes her. What I was surprised about was how far she was willing to go... This clearly shows how the season is now progressing to a darker place.

4. Ronan. For once I can say that in this episode that he was more himself than I have ever seen him. He seemed so relax. I loved when he asked what a Goa'uld was.

5. Goa'uld afraid of the Wraith? Wow, but then I can see why. They do have a nasty habit of hiding behind religion, to which the Wraith have none. The Wraith wouldn't care if they faced a Goa'uld - all food to them.

Overall... Excellent, excellent episode.

For this week, Atlantis gets my vote, while last week and the week before, it was SG-1.

Mattathias

derrickh
January 22nd, 2006, 02:56 PM
There's no indication that an Athosian would refuse almost *all* medical treatment. Halling's broken leg was set. Teyla has been under Beckett's care. So, um, not so much with the Christian Scientist thing.

And why would that be comforting?

It's comforting because up until this point, the Athosian religion has been vague. It's nice that thought was put into that aspect of thier culture.




Have I missed some statements of yours about McKay or Sheppard or Beckett being criminal psychotic warped sickos? If so, I'm sure you'll supply your 'diagnosis' or 'legal judgment' for our edification.

Sheesh!

No need for me to go too deep. Weir sent Ronan in to torture a member of the Atlantis team. Torture against US and International law. Period. There are no exceptions in that law.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/24/usint8614.htm

International and U.S. law prohibits torture and other ill-treatment of any person in custody in all circumstances. The prohibition applies to the United States during times of peace, armed conflict, or a state of emergency. Any person, whether a U.S. national or a non-citizen, is protected. It is irrelevant whether the detainee is determined to be a prisoner-of-war, a protected person, or a so-called “security detainee” or “unlawful combatant.” And the prohibition is in effect within the territory of the United States or any place anywhere U.S. authorities have control over a person. In short, the prohibition against torture and ill-treatment is absolute.

Weir is a criminal. That part is fact. The discussion should really be about who should take command of Atlantis once she's gone.

D

SGalisa
January 22nd, 2006, 03:45 PM
first, in sync with another topic "Rachel Luttrell - Beyond the night mp3"
for: "Beyond the Night" music... (and lots of other details)

Originally posted by Agent_Dark:
Some traditional Athosian music begins to play (think native, stringed and wind instruments) and Teyla begins to sing for the ceremony.not sure, but I think the stringed instrument we saw is a version of the celtic harp.

While reading thru this topic, again there always ends up a
...*SG vs. BSG* (reference)...??
While watching and listening I had a feeling some comments might show up in this topic stating this music had a BSG feel to it, since BSG has been using celtic-like music for a sort of alien feel for people not *familiar* with it. But before there was BSG, there was "Highlander: The (TV) Series". So, aside from having a *real* Scottish actor on the SG:Atlantis set, another answer could probably, actually be "Highlander: The Series" as one of the original sources of inspiration behind the musical choice, not BSG. ;)

I searched high and low for this on the Isle of Skye with Duncan MacLeod as the source... "Highlander" had an ep with the haunting and beautiful celtic tune of
"Bonny Portmore", arranged by Roger Bellon and sung by Laura Creamer.
Highlander's "Bonny Portmore" came lonnnnnng before the current 2003-2006 BSG series showed up on TV. And before SGA and BSG, there was Earth: Final Conflict (air dates: late 1990's), which also incorporated Gaelic music into the background now and then. So where did BSG get its *celtic* inspiration from?

I thought of this... and also remembered hearing on a news radio program a many months ago, that celtic music has become very popular over recent years (hmmmmm... does the entire "Highlander" TV series/movies have anything to do with *that* particular popularity???).

Also, would SGA's celtic inspiration -to "Beyond the Night" music- have any connections to there being a *real* Scottish actor on the set, playing Dr. Carson Beckett... would bringing this song into the SGA series therefore be an honorable tribute to him and his native Scotland?? (I *like* when TPTB do that for the actors and crew).

If any of the above is even remotely true, then BSG might not be the source, even tho I've read some comments believing it is. From the first moment I heard this type of similar music on BSG, I have enjoyed the Gaelic *lilt* on BSG (not sure if it's Scottish or Irish), and often thought of it's origins as being inspired from the *Highlander* (clan MacLeod) fame. :)


I *really* liked CRITICAL MASS from start to finish... so it's going to be gushing praise from me... :p
I also liked the blending of the SGC hq with SGA's predicament... leaving Atlantis hang without help from the SGC reminded me of when the entire SGA team first arrived at Atlantis in Season 1's "Rising" episode.



Originally posted by xfkirsten:
-Kavanagh - the man I love to hate. He got some great scenes in this one. Being verbally shot down by an Asgard - how embarrassing! I also love how he fainted, that was priceless.
Originally posted by TOA:
2) Hermiod ... As an added bonus Hermiod dislikes Kavangh even more than the rest of us! And he told him to shut up!!!! I love Hermiod!!!Actually, Hermiod did use the word "Please"
"Please... *Shut Up!!*" :D


Originally posted by TOA:
1) Sensitive pony tail guy - aka Kavangh - and once again he *****ed out WeirI thought he was much nicer about how he *phrased* it this time... ;)


Originally posted by prion:
Zelenka with his new 'do'. Priceless.agreed...oh my!! *sigh* :D

SGalisa
January 22nd, 2006, 04:22 PM
(sorry) more... :)

Originally posted by caty:
They also wrapped it up pretty good at the end, with Teyla singing in the background while the others thought Atlantis would be destoryed.that's a very beautiful way of describing it...
the *ring* itself was symbolic to the entire *Stargate* gate, itself, and therefore perfectly fit within that peculiar *ring-thing* SG theme. :D

I also didn't think the search for the Goa'uld montage was out of sequence at all, since part of the song was referring to
"...the battle's won. The Battle is won." :)


Originally posted by starfox:
... (although come to think of it, "Beyond the Night" at a dark moment - realizing one of their own is a spy - is somewhat appropriate).hmmmmm,
"Beyond the Night" at a dark moment
reinforces my previous thoughts even better... ;)

I didn't think I'd like Teyla's personal sidestory in this ep, but it shed light on her emotions and gently dove into what a person who doesn't want to let go of a loved one experiences. Teyla didn't want to let go. Charin (Jarin? sp) was ready to welcome resting from the fears of always fleeing from the Wraith. Installing a pacemaker would merely provoke time to add more fears, and I think Charin was well aware of that -she was ready to leave *peacefully* before the Wraith got a 2nd opportunity on her life.

Most people tend to accept life as it is, and often we viewers forget that somewhere, "what if..." someone actually has to struggle with such an event? To Teyla's people, Wraith feeding on humans is normal, humans dying young is normal, but according to Teyla: *ring ceremonies* are rare and therefore ultimately have a special meaning to a person's heart. That's why it becomes beautiful. The "Beyond the Night" music enhanced that special moment.

How many times have viewers watched Xena where a deceased Amazon sister was wrapped in shrouded cloths, and then burned on the peer with Xena or someone else singing the death song? That's what it reminded me of. I was relieved they didn't show Charin's body being burned on the peer, if it was creamated first at all.


Originally posted by starfox:
I agree that the song would have been better in another language...I thought if hearing the song in a different language would make it even better (which Xena's eps did when those times came), but then the lyrics might not have rhymed in SGA's "Critical Mass" ...and we wouldn't have understood any of it, so the *special* meaning behind it might be forever lost. :p


Originally posted by Merlin7:
Rachel has a lovely voice but the music playing for her ruined the effect. They didn't have musicians there.imagination believes they were beyond the visible *ring* of light, in their own corner. Maybe this helps:


Originally posted by Jonzey:
In the first few seconds of the music when the camera is kinda looking in the direction from the head of dead women (i forget her name) to her feet. And I counted one guy with two big tribal drum thingys and a couple of other people with big stringed instruments which I coudn't identify.

What room did the *ring* ceremony take place in? It appeared to be a room with an open circular skylight, thus giving the symbolic *ring* effect. I didn't see any of the ceremonial stones, which would have been there if this scene took place on the mainland.

PG15
January 22nd, 2006, 04:31 PM
Weir is a criminal. That part is fact. The discussion should really be about who should take command of Atlantis once she's gone.

D

What would you have done?

derrickh
January 22nd, 2006, 06:05 PM
What would you have done?

I would not have tortured anyone.

I would've conducted a competent investigation instead of focusing on someone because of negative personal feelings. I would've went to the people that Kavanough sent the coded messages to and found out what they said. I would've put a huge effort into cracking the code. I would've done everything I could to solve the problem.

I would not have tortured anyone.

Being a leader isn't just about making hard choices. It's about making the right choices.

D

Schrodinger82
January 22nd, 2006, 06:18 PM
I don't mind trying to cover current events and politics into scifi, but I found this episode to be incredibly heavy handed and overdone. This isn't Battlestar Galactica, and when Weir and Co started contemplating the use of torture, I couldn't help but crack up laughing. It was just so forced and unnatural that I had a hard time believing it.

Perhaps I would have taken this episode more seriously if there had been more stakes. e.g., if someone had actually been attacked or killed, or if a part of the city had actually been damaged, whatever. But in this episode, all we get are two off camera Wraith Cruisers. Writers, here's a tip: Show me, don't tell me.

The fact is, we already know going into this that Atlantis isn't going to be blown up. So the threat just isn't there for me. In order for the epsiode to resonant, there needed to be some sort of immeadiate threat, that could reasonably happen in the context of the show (and better yet, which WOULD reasonably happen in the context of the show.). We didn't get that.

The other issue, "He fainted before I could do anything!" was such a copout. It would have been a lot more interesting if John and Weir had actually gotten their hands dirty in the matter. Suppose they said, "I don't trust this job to Ronan because he might lose control, so if anyone is going to torture the guy, then it's going to be us." Another tip to the writers: If you're going to give the characters a tough decision, then give that decision to people who WOULDN'T want to do it. That's what we call internal conflict.

The funny thing is, I personally agree with the idea with the idea that we shouldn't torture prisoners for information. The problem is that the episode didn't really have anything except the message, and so it ended up being done extremely poorly.

xfkirsten
January 22nd, 2006, 06:20 PM
I would not have tortured anyone.

I would've conducted a competent investigation instead of focusing on someone because of negative personal feelings. I would've went to the people that Kavanough sent the coded messages to and found out what they said. I would've put a huge effort into cracking the code. I would've done everything I could to solve the problem.

I would not have tortured anyone.

Being a leader isn't just about making hard choices. It's about making the right choices.

D

Maybe they couldn't find exactly who he sent the messages to - they never said they didn't try to find out. And say you can't crack the code in time. Weir didn't authorize torture until there was 24 minutes left before the city would be "vaporized." A lot of the evidence DID point to Kavanagh then. When you've only got minutes left until the city (and everyone in it) is obliterated, what would you do then? Wait for your own doom, when the evidence suggests that he might have an answer?

If she'd done it earlier, I'd agree with you. Is she a war criminal? I'd suppose so, in a technical sense. But I see things in shades of gray. The lives of so many were in very immediate danger, and she was following the evidence that they had in an attempt to save the lives of all involved.

CalmStorm
January 22nd, 2006, 06:45 PM
Is she a war criminal? I'd suppose so, in a technical sense. But I see things in shades of gray. The lives of so many were in very immediate danger, and she was following the evidence that they had in an attempt to save the lives of all involved.

Very much shades of grey ;)

There has been much discussion on current laws and treaties and trying to make them applicable to the situations and decisions made by the Atlantis expedition...and primarily Weir. However, I just don't think that something like current US laws and the Geneva Convention factor into the Pegasus Galaxy and the current situtation there. The laws and treaties never took into consideration alien races, one of which has the main goal of feasting on humans, or circumstances such as the ones being faced in this setting. I imagine that, with the addition of this knowledge, those laws and treaties would probably be significantly different than they are now. Especially with all that is at stake.

the fifth man
January 22nd, 2006, 07:13 PM
Personally, I feel it was a very difficult choice for Weir. She just was running out of time and options fast. If I had been in her shoes, I may have made the same decision. Luckily, no torturing had to take place.

GatetheWay
January 22nd, 2006, 07:37 PM
Unless you count Ronon beating the crap out of Caldwell then Sheppard hitting him with a taser twice. That's technically torture.

ShadowMaat
January 23rd, 2006, 03:35 AM
Unless you count Ronon beating the crap out of Caldwell then Sheppard hitting him with a tazor twice. That's technically torture.
Yes, but except for that, everyone was treated wonderfully and treated to tea and cakes. ;)

Callie
January 23rd, 2006, 05:55 AM
I didn't see any of the ceremonial stones, which would have been there if this scene took place on the mainland.

They were there. When Teyla started singing you could see some of the stones around the bedside. I don't recall seeing any earlier, when Teyla and Carson talked, but the stones were definitely there for the song itself.

Which leaves me to imagine the wonderful toe-to-toe argument between the Athosians and the Jumper pilots about whether a whole bunch of heavy stones were vital equipment to take with them during the evacuation of the mainland. ;-)

Linear
January 23rd, 2006, 06:32 AM
I have to say that I really enjoyed this episode. Teyla's singing was ok, although when it first started I had to wince. Watching the episode a second time it actually seemed more acceptable. ;)

As to the discussion on Wier I think people are being to harsh. There was a lot of evidence pointing to Kavanaugh (sp?). Her choices were:
1. sit there and do nothing
or
2. Twist an arm to save the hundreds of people left in the city (hmm anyone notice that Teyla & Beckett would have been killed if the city exploded?), save her home, and possible defeat the wraith? (it has been alluded to that info in the ancient database might help against fighting the wraith).

We aren't talking about the rack or water torture here. :rolleyes: No doubt Ronin is intimidating enough without any real damage. Which is probably why Kavanaugh fainted. :D

entil2001
January 23rd, 2006, 08:27 AM
This is a very odd episode for a number of reasons, and I’m not really sure what to make of it. I find it hard to believe that Caldwell’s character was always meant to have this kind of encounter or that the whole Trust debacle was meant to have an impact on “Atlantis”. Perhaps it was just the manner in which the crossover took place. There were a lot of things to like about the episode, especially in the final act, but there were also elements that left me wondering how quickly the script was cobbled together.

Let’s cover the bad things first. I’ve never liked the idea of the Trust, since it’s never been well-defined and it seems like a needless way to insert conspiracy into the series after the NID plot threads have been played out to death. Of course, now the Trust is a gateway for the Goa’uld plot to take control of Earth, presumably led by Baal and his many, many clones. That’s all an issue for inferior “SG-1” episodes, however, so I wasn’t particularly thrilled at the idea that the mess had spilled over into this series.

It has, however, and the implication is worse for the overall “Stargate Universe” than perhaps even the writers might suspect. If the Trust can infiltrate the SGC so completely that the commander of the Daedalus is infested with a symbiote without anyone noticing, that’s a serious breach of security. Essentially, the entire operation could be crippled with no possibility of a counter-offensive.

On the other hand, there’s a certain logic to what the Goa’uld were trying to accomplish. If the Wraith do take control of Atlantis, they have the power and the will to invade Earth and begin an incursion of the home turf. This is as big an issue for the human population as it is with the beleaguered Goa’uld. Though even they didn’t consider the more subtle and logical approach: use the Humans as the first line of defense, but then set things up so if Atlantis is breached, the gate will switch to an address in the part of space currently held by the Priors! Deal with both problems at once!

Now, the good. As much as Teyla’s “B” plot was pleasant, for lack of a better term, the music in the final act was quite effective. I could tell that she was actually singing (though it was, of course, dubbed in), and that helped a bit. I’m still not pleased by the fact that other chanting voices joined her, since none of the extras in the scene were singing, but that wasn’t the point. It was a well-orchestrated sequence.

Also, I loved the return of Lt. Cadman to the series. I mentioned back in my review for “Duet” that it was a shame how little she was on screen. It actually looks like she’ll be a recurring character, a possible bone of contention between McKay and Beckett, and I couldn’t be happier. Yay for hot redheads! And between her and Cavanaugh, that gave the whole “traitor” plot thread something to work with.

prion
January 23rd, 2006, 08:31 AM
We aren't talking about the rack or water torture here. :rolleyes: No doubt Ronin is intimidating enough without any real damage. Which is probably why Kavanaugh fainted. :D

Most people would feel VERY nervous is Ronon walked into a room looking like that. Most people would probably start sweating, running around the room like a squirrel on the highway, or pass out. The idiots would go "yeah, sure, make me talk." ;)

I can only fathom the kind of torture inflicted would be basic - twisting arms (literally). Not the horrific slow torture people with boards and rope. The city was going to be gone in 24 minutes.

However, although Weir approved the torture, she was not happy with having done so.

derrickh
January 23rd, 2006, 08:56 AM
Feeling bad about committing a crime doesn't exonerate you from punishment.

And there's no doubt that Ronan was going to do more than stare down Kavanaugh. He was brandishing his knife for a reason. Maybe cut off an ear, or slice the achilles tendon. It would have to cause enough pain to make someone talk quickly.

D

bitnine
January 23rd, 2006, 09:10 AM
Unless you count Ronon beating the crap out of Caldwell then Sheppard hitting him with a tazor twice. That's technically torture.Both of those seemed fine. Ronon subdued Caldwell right after he stood up and made a physical threat (and though he probably would have gone on a bit, Shep stopped him). And then Shepard used the taser to briefly free the host from control. That second bit in particular, they weren't torturing anyone, just using a crude electroshock to allow Caldwell to speak.

GatetheWay
January 23rd, 2006, 02:13 PM
Feeling bad about committing a crime doesn't exonerate you from punishment.

And there's no doubt that Ronan was going to do more than stare down Kavanaugh. He was brandishing his knife for a reason. Maybe cut off an ear, or slice the achilles tendon. It would have to cause enough pain to make someone talk quickly.

D
Oh, please. Ronon didn't do anything like that to Caldwell and thats just blatent assumption on your part. It sounds like you think Ronon is a sadist who would like nothing better then to jump the gun and inflict as much pain as soon as possible to a fellow human. There is no evidence of this and self defence and fists fights with those who can defend themselves don't count..

For all we know Ronon might of done to Kavanaugh what the Genii did to Rodney when they wanted info in the Storm. Ronon may of started with threats then worked his way up to actual physical harm like twisting his arm or a cut. Kavanaugh was a whimp so there would be no need for Ronon to cause too much pain.

GatetheWay
January 23rd, 2006, 02:14 PM
Both of those seemed fine. Ronon subdued Caldwell right after he stood up and made a physical threat (and though he probably would have gone on a bit, Shep stopped him). And then Shepard used the taser to briefly free the host from control. That second bit in particular, they weren't torturing anyone, just using a crude electroshock to allow Caldwell to speak.
So you're saying that Ronon's beating of Caldwell was nothing more but a pre-emtive strike. That's a slippery slop.