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    Originally posted by Skydiver
    a friend of mine brought up an odd idea...we all know that many find the s10 story arc to be, well less than what we'd consider 'good'

    what if it's being written deliberately 'bad'?
    This is funny, because it reminded me of a discussion we had over in the Atlantis s2: Disappointment thread. Yeade provided a LJ link where the author argued that Atlantis is an example of postmodernism and the weak development of most of the characters is intentional to let the audience interpret characters and fill in the holes as they see fit. It's a way to get the audience more involved in the show by making them personalize it.

    It was an interesting read, but in the end I think it's more a case of poor characterization than a step toward postmodernism. I'd like to think the same is true for SG1, there isn't a PTB drive to piss off Skiffy with poor episodes, they're just writing poor episodes thanks to rushed scripts, poorly developed characters, cheezy lines, and bad plots. Besides, intentionally writing bad episodes is much worse than writing bad episodes just because you don't know any better. It's like smart girls who pretend to be dumb just because they think the boys will like it.

    And like Shadow said, it's awfully convenient to claim "Oh, we meant to do that" once everything is said and done...

    Comment


      good point. i do think a lot of what we're seeing as 'bad' is more the issue of 'good enough' becoming the norm.

      lacking the time/ability, etc to fully plot out and nitpick an episode prior to taping, they're tossing it together slap dash and what we're getting are eps with the easy way taken or with plot holes the size of Detroit

      it may be attributable to over work, but it does come off as not caring. and if they don't care enough to try and make the episode as good as tehy can, it's hard for me to really care

      for the most part, the spoilers for s10 have me at the mocking level. i find them too ridiculous to take seriously and so i'm not taking the show seriously anymore.

      i enjoyed hercules for severeal years because i never saw it as more than a farce. And stargate is going that way. It's become Farcegate
      Where in the World is George Hammond?


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        Originally posted by Skydiver
        It's become Farcegate
        Sky, that sums it up nicely.

        My LJ

        Comment


          Originally posted by Skydiver
          i do think a lot of what we're seeing as 'bad' is more the issue of 'good enough' becoming the norm.

          lacking the time/ability, etc to fully plot out and nitpick an episode prior to taping, they're tossing it together slap dash and what we're getting are eps with the easy way taken or with plot holes the size of Detroit

          it may be attributable to over work, but it does come off as not caring. and if they don't care enough to try and make the episode as good as tehy can, it's hard for me to really care
          Hear Hear! I think the rot really set in with Prometheus Unbound, not that I have anything against Vala. Inevitably it's hard to maintain quality over 8, 9, 10 years and I think the writers are getting tired and jaded. Get some new ones in!
          sigpic
          "Ce qui ressemble a l'amour est toujours de l'amour." - Tristan Bernard

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            I guess I should be glad my favorite shows bit the dust before I began to hate them.
            You know, I thought it was just me. I've been feeling enormously guilty recently for finding myself thinking, "Oh well, could be worse. Could have been a terrific S9/10/whatever and then it was cancelled when I was still craving my weekly fix of adventures. Least this way I left the relationship first. <g>"

            I suppose in a way it is better to lose interest in a show while it's still on the air rather than being bereft that it ended before you were ready to lose it.

            All the same, when push comes to shove, I'd take a terrific show until it's cancelled option every time, whether it means being bereft or not.

            I can only presume two reasons:

            you're being told to
            I definitely think the baby is a studio invention. For some reason, those studio execs just seem to love that plot. No idea why. You think they'd have learned by now! I'm pretty sure a lot of the crap that's gone on in S9 is down to studio interference and that's a real shame that SG1 has finally succumbed to the greatest jinx in showbiz when it avoided it for so long.

            As for when the rot set in. I did feel myself that S7 and S8 weren't as good as earlier seasons (although in reruns I discovered they were actually slightly better than I'd figured they were watching for the first time and I certainly wouldn't call them lame ducks; I enjoyed a lot of them). But my god they're beginning to look like A Grade episodes compared to what we've been getting this season!

            And I agree that after 8 seasons it's difficult to come up with orginal concepts. All the same, there's something about S9 that's taken copying other shows and previous episodes to the extreme. It used to be a homage here and there - a scene, a moment, even when it was an entire episode it had something original to say about the plot, some new take or twist. Now it's just so blatant and constant. Every week when I see the plot of a show I'm thinking, "Oh, someone watched Last Samauri, huh?" or "Been watching Voyager again." or "Been there, done that...in S3...4...6...".

            I also think that Atlantis didn't help. I don't care what TPTB say. You start off by having a specific team/crew working on SG1, you then have to split them between two shows...you're going to have a drop off in quality on one show. And ten cents to a dollar the show that gets left in the dust and neglected is the older one, not the new kid on the block. It's basic commonsense. There aren't enough hours in the day for one set of people to suddenly do double the work and keep up the quality on both shows. So don't tell me, TPTB, that it's not a problem for you.

            Albion
            Last edited by Albion; 13 January 2006, 08:50 AM.
            Listen, we had General Ryan come on and do a little cameo for us, and he's a real live four star, one of the big guys. And I had to ask him point blank, because there's a certain irreverence that I bring to the character, and denseness, but while we were doing this scene, I just looked at him and said, "Do you have guys like me in...?" and he stopped me and said, "Yes, and worse, and you're doing a fine job, son."

            Richard Dean Anderson

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              snipped
              Originally posted by binkpmmc

              Well to all of them, including the delusional PTB, I say I HAVE been waiting since season 7 and I am tired of waiting. All of the hope and all of the good thoughts I had for the show have all come up empty. TPTB have not surprised me with anything good or with anything that even approaches the intelligent, unique, well-written drama they managed to produce for 7 years.

              What a waste.
              I'm with you, Binkpmmc, I sick and tired of waiting. And very irritated with the 'oh this season will be the best ever' BS line.
              To the PTB - don't tell me - show me.
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                Originally posted by Zoser
                snipped

                I'm with you, Binkpmmc, I sick and tired of waiting. And very irritated with the 'oh this season will be the best ever' BS line.
                To the PTB - don't tell me - show me.
                the 'problem' is, telling is easier. take cam for example. what would be easier - read cheaper - show us him doing things, show us some leadership abiilties, show us what makes him qualified to run sg1...or type up some dialogue and tell us and expect us to just believe it

                take 4th horsemen 2 for example. we were told about all the casualites. told how bad it was, told how horrible things were getting...but were we ever shown it?

                did we see airports getting shut down? did we see body bags? did we see any real quarantine procedures going on? no (such as inviting international guests into a contaminated facility????) we were told and if you missed that line of dialogue you have no idea how bad things were. it's just words and numbers, which lack an emotional punch

                as such i as a viewer never felt that sense of urgency and immediacy that i was supposed to feel. i felt no drama, no tension...all i was doing was watching folks going from point 1 to point b in the time allotted
                Where in the World is George Hammond?


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                  Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
                  I don't wanna call them sell-outs now, because I think that's extremely harsh. But I do have to wonder what their motives are and where their priorities lie these days. Is it about preserving the original qualities (and quality) of the series that kept on picking up fans throughout the years during its time on Showtime? Or is it about preserving their job (and that of many, many other people) by "compromising" with a network that no longer has to rely upon them for ratings?

                  I understand the dilemma they have. They essentially sold their soul to Sci Fi when they developed Atlantis. Now there's even more at stake should they go the controversial Farscape route - assuming, of course, they disagree with the directions Sci Fi is taking them.

                  It's just a weird situation, one I doubt we'll ever know the true story behind until several years from now.
                  No, I wouldn't want to call them sell-outs either. (I know it may not seem like it, but I actually like TPTB at Bridge--I'm grateful to them for Seasons 1-8, although I suspect that Gekko productions--Anderson and Greenberg--may have had more to do with the high level of quality than anyone else. I love the way Joe Mallozzi fearlessly puts himself right out there in the middle of fandom through his "Ask Joe" thread and his blog....) I think it's a combination of burnout and "compromising with a network" that doesn't really need them the way it once did. I can understand why they wouldn't want to lose their jobs. They've created a great work environment with a strong sense of family--I wouldn't want to leave that either.

                  But I love Stargate and I hate seeing a show of exceptional quality being turned into something mediocre and cheesey. (Hmm...Homage Fromage! I actually enjoy subtle homage done well. Just not when it's overdone and heavy-handed like The Spawn of Vala....)

                  I have to be honest with you, Dancer. I started watching SG-1 around the same time as you--I think that's why I had no problem accepting Jack and Sam or why I enjoyed Jonas even though Daniel was gone. I've seen all the episodes both in and out of order and, if you ask my husband, he'd probably say I was a little too obsessed with Stargate. Not watching it from its beginning nine years ago does, as you say, give us a different perspective because we haven't had to go through all the ups and downs and disappointments like those who did start from the beginning. Most of the ups and downs were already history when I signed on as a fan.

                  I agree that we may never know the true story behind all of this. Maybe in a few years if SG-1 is still around, this time of fan unrest may be seen in the same way as the shipper wars or the Daniel/Jonas conflict. I understand TPTB's possible dilemma, but I'm still pretty angry at the outcome.
                  I just hate settling for less when I know how great it has been in the past....

                  Comment


                    snipped
                    Originally posted by SimilarCadence
                    I've seen all the episodes both in and out of order and, if you ask my husband, he'd probably say I was a little too obsessed with Stargate.
                    My husband thinks I'm obsessed too - he maybe right. But mentioning this (or complaining about it) to his coworkers I found out that more than half the Comp. Sci. and Math Dept. of the college were avid fans as well, the Chairman the worst of the lot. I'm going to take a poll of the fans - if they like Season 9 and are looking forward to 10. The only feed back I've gotten so far was 'No O'Neill - are they crazy!!'
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                      Originally posted by Zoser
                      snipped

                      My husband thinks I'm obsessed too - he maybe right. But mentioning this (or complaining about it) to his coworkers I found out that more than half the Comp. Sci. and Math Dept. of the college were avid fans as well, the Chairman the worst of the lot. I'm going to take a poll of the fans - if they like Season 9 and are looking forward to 10. The only feed back I've gotten so far was 'No O'Neill - are they crazy!!'
                      That's awesome! And it's a good way to garner opinions from the untainted minds of non-online fans.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
                        That's awesome! And it's a good way to garner opinions from the untainted minds of non-online fans.
                        I introduced some to fan fic and print out and send in some when I find a really good piece of fiction. I just printed out Strix Varia's 'Under Fire' for the beginning of the semester - soooo much better than the dreck of Season nine.
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                          Originally posted by Skydiver
                          good point. i do think a lot of what we're seeing as 'bad' is more the issue of 'good enough' becoming the norm.

                          lacking the time/ability, etc to fully plot out and nitpick an episode prior to taping, they're tossing it together slap dash and what we're getting are eps with the easy way taken or with plot holes the size of Detroit

                          it may be attributable to over work, but it does come off as not caring. and if they don't care enough to try and make the episode as good as tehy can, it's hard for me to really care

                          for the most part, the spoilers for s10 have me at the mocking level. i find them too ridiculous to take seriously and so i'm not taking the show seriously anymore.

                          i enjoyed hercules for severeal years because i never saw it as more than a farce. And stargate is going that way. It's become Farcegate
                          Do you listen to the commentaries on the DVDs (probably). I do so I want to know. WHAT THE HELCK HAPPENED TO THE "HOW COME" ROOM? Seriously, was it closed down or somthing... because I got a lot of how comes that seem pretty obvious but are being ignored. Sometimes I think they are doing it intentionally so they can "revist" something later and make a great 'twist' so something (like B5 used to do). But then I remember, they rarely revisit anything anymore and this is a "fresh new start" so there is really not much hope. The plot holes are now just that. Holes into oblivion.

                          EDIT (oops): And both Hercules and Xena were good as long as when you watched them you went into them with the same mindset you have when you watch Cartoons..... Is stargate becoming a cartoon? Because they did that already and it was truely, truely terrible.
                          Joseph Mallozzi -"In the meantime, I'm into season 5 of OZ (where the show takes an unfortunate hairpin turn into "the not so wonderful world of fantasy")"

                          ^^^ Kinda sounds like seasons 9 and 10 of SG-1 to me. Thor, ya got Aspirin?

                          AGateFan has officially Gone Fishin (with Jack, Sam, Daniel, Teal'c) and is hoping Atlantis does not take that same hairpin turn.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by AGateFan
                            Do you listen to the commentaries on the DVDs (probably). I do so I want to know. WHAT THE HELCK HAPPENED TO THE "HOW COME" ROOM? Seriously, was it closed down or somthing... because I got a lot of how comes that seem pretty obvious but are being ignored. Sometimes I think they are doing it intentionally so they can "revist" something later and make a great 'twist' so something (like B5 used to do). But then I remember, they rarely revisit anything anymore and this is a "fresh new start" so there is really not much hope. The plot holes are now just that. Holes into oblivion.
                            Mwahahaha! The HOW COME? ROOM! Poor PDL!

                            I think someone probably blew it up, now that I think about it. That or it was made into a storage closet for "Things Of The Past: Please Disregard."

                            Comment


                              i think the how come room fell victim to 'do it fast, fast, faster' and 'cheap, cheap, cheaper'
                              Where in the World is George Hammond?


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                                take 4th horsemen 2 for example. we were told about all the casualites. told how bad it was, told how horrible things were getting...but were we ever shown it?
                                I have to agree. This has been one of the major problems with S9 for me. Let's face it, SG1 was always top heavy on exposition. But in previous seasons, I was always bemused when I heard on a DVD commentary that the directors were always scrabbling around to find an interesting way of doing boardroom exposition, because I never found it boring. There was always something going on that was fun or cute or a really great team or character moment to look out for. Jack, of course, provided most of that. But it wasn't entirely down to him. A glance from Daniel, a deadpan comment from Teal'c - it was all interesting.

                                Now...it's as though now that many of the elements which I loved about this show have been stripped away it's really highlighting just how much dang talking this show does. Talk, talk, talk. The writers don't seem to have ever heard of one of the most basic writing rules - Show Don't Tell.

                                Granted, I agree, it's a cheaper option and therefore must be tempting. But other shows manage to create a balance between talk and action, so why can't SG1? They seem to be getting lazier with it by the minute and taking the easy way out whenever they can. Perhaps, going back to my previous post, that's part and parcel of the Atlantis element. With limited time to work on two shows at once, it must be very tempting to cut as much of the 'show' out of SG1 as possible and save yourself time and trouble.

                                Another thing is the type of talk we're getting. It's all expostion, it seems to me. All scene setting. As you point up, Skydiver, it mostly all about telling us what's happening with the plot so they don't have to show us.

                                Where's the talk about character? The team moments? Where are the little moments like Daniel and Teal'c coming into Sam's lab to reassure her Jack didn't mean anything by delaying their mission in S8? A beautifully crafted team moment. Or Teal'c comforting Sam in the locker room when Jack was missing in Paradise Lost? Where's the heart? That's what I'm missing. The heart.

                                The character based moments in S9 so far, have seemed somehow forced. Badly tacked on, but not really cohesive and blending in.

                                I watched FH2 on Tuesday. With the sound off as I recorded it, because my husband was in the room (I don't watch these shows with him, I save them to watch on my own later). I haven't gone back to watch it properly so far. Not had the urge. I seemed to get all I needed to with the sound off. Talk. More talk. Someone fired a gun. Yet more talk. Talk. Talk. Talk. The end. And, I have to say, in mitigation, from what I saw of the episode it was the best yet! Which kind of makes it worse!

                                Right after, SKY showed BSG's premiere. I hate comparing shows which have run for eight years with ones that have run for two, because the younger show has an easier time of it, with new characters, worlds, situations to explore that are new to the audience and the older show can't compete with that freshness. But, boy, did it just highlight even more all that talk and no action from SG1 an hour previously.

                                This is painting by numbers TV. As Skydiver says, there's no tension, no drama, no wondering what's going to happen next. You can pretty much plot the entire episode from the first five minutes and not be far wrong. There are very few surprises or shocks any more.


                                Albion
                                Listen, we had General Ryan come on and do a little cameo for us, and he's a real live four star, one of the big guys. And I had to ask him point blank, because there's a certain irreverence that I bring to the character, and denseness, but while we were doing this scene, I just looked at him and said, "Do you have guys like me in...?" and he stopped me and said, "Yes, and worse, and you're doing a fine job, son."

                                Richard Dean Anderson

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