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GateWorld
September 8th, 2005, 11:13 AM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/908.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/908.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">SG-1 SEASON NINE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/908.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none"><B>BABYLON</B></A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 908</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
Colonel Mitchell is injured in a skirmish with a warrior from a mythic tribe of rebel Jaffa, and is trained in their fighting techniques only so that he may engage in a ritual battle to the death.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/908.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

AzgardCommander
September 9th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Nothing really exciting happend, eh?

sgatelvr
September 9th, 2005, 06:11 PM
Nope. Pretty unimpressive. And, I have to say, who the heck replaced Sam, Daniel and Teal'c with a bunch of jerks? They are mean and grumpy. If I were Mitchell, I'd be marching in to Landry's office and asking to pick my own team, as originally instructed.

You know, I have waited very patiently to see this team come together, but it looks like the original three are just acting bitter at being brought back to SG1. I'm am beginning to feel really sorry I've wasted my time with this season. With two eps left, I'm not very hopeful that it will improve. What a pity.

FeloniousMonk
September 9th, 2005, 06:25 PM
:confused: I thought the season was twenty episodes long.

Anyways, the first thing I noticed about this episode (which I didn't finish watching cause I ran to the liquor store instead...I'll catch the encore) was that the Air Force consultant really needs to teach Browder how to hold a gun when firing. I can understand Teal'c firing from the hip, but not Mitchell. Little things like that kinda ruin scenes for me. :p

Shivan
September 9th, 2005, 06:26 PM
May I ask a question? Why is there only two episodes left? I'm really confused... Is it just the break they usually have in between? If so why are they saying series finale?

Oh, it boy was this episode god awful.

AGateFan
September 9th, 2005, 06:27 PM
:confused: I thought the season was twenty episodes long.

Anyways, the first thing I noticed about this episode (which I didn't finish watching cause I ran to the liquor store instead...I'll catch the encore) was that the Air Force consultant really needs to teach Browder how to hold a gun when firing. I can understand Teal'c firing from the hip, but not Mitchell. Little things like that kinda ruin scenes for me. :p
MID Season finally. eps 9 and 10 are next week, then we are on break until January for the 2nd half of the season. MID season.

And Sam knows how to hold a gun :)

MediaSavant
September 9th, 2005, 06:38 PM
Well, FINALLY, they developed Mitchell's character a bit.

To those of us waiting all season for them to do so, that IS eventful.

Uber
September 9th, 2005, 06:42 PM
What a disappointment.

I just watched Babylon, a title I don't understand based on the story, and was just really depressed after it...as depressed as I was after watching that ridiculous Ties that Bind episode, but worse because at that point, I was still waiting for the team to re-unite.

I see no team...just people with matching patches. WHERE'S SG-1????

Sorry...but the only thing I can say about this episode is I WAITED TWO WEEKS FOR THAT???

:(

LaCroix
September 9th, 2005, 06:48 PM
To qoute O'Neill :
"This is just a new game brought to you by our good friend--

The Last Samurai
Fair Game
A Hundred Days
Paradise Lost


I thought the point of this season was to be new and fresh, so far it hasn't. The one thing that struck me funny was Mitchell saying that he faced death.
What is this the Kobayashi Maru?

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
September 9th, 2005, 06:48 PM
Based on GateWorld's Episode Rating System (http://www.gateworld.net/ratings.shtml), I'd give it a **. The teaser was pretty cool. Loved Walter comment to Daniel towards the last couple minutes of the episode.

AGateFan
September 9th, 2005, 06:50 PM
Mitchell episode. Definitely all Mitchell all the time but some good Teal'c stuff thrown in. Daniel had little to do. Sam had nothing to do. Landry and Lam had more then Daniel and Sam. The 2 brothers (yes they are actually brothers) did quite a fine job along with the main Soden leader. I am interested in the Soden storyline more then the Jaffa High Counsel.

I was sooo getting the Star Trek vibe at the end, only to find out it was, in fact, a purposeful Star Trek reference. Must have been Mitchell’s idea.
At first I was thinking they were going to have Mitchell win or talk his way out of it and I was trying to figure it out how they would do it without being cheesy, so I am glad they went with the Star Trek out.

Nothing much seemed to happen but it wasn’t terribly boring or anything just a plain old ep. Not a team ep which is my favorite kind of ep but Mitchell did need to do something. Now he’s got a little fighting skill and a bond with an off world allies... wasn’t there a thread on that.... Daniel has Ancients, Sam has Tokra, Teal'c has jaffa now Mitchell has Sodan, so ok he needed that.

Not great, not terrible, just ok.

BTW AT does need to give BB some training on carrying himself like a military officer.... And maybe Mitchell shouldnt be talking about Teal'c behind his back .... within earshot..... I thought he was the rude one not any of the original SG-1 people.

MarshAngel
September 9th, 2005, 06:53 PM
Yeah. I was underwhelmed. As most episodes dealing mostly with Jaffa this one was kind of dull. In terms of the grand scheme of things I don't think it contributed much. Will we be seeing more of the Sodan? Because if we aren't we could have done without them.

Jason George - Jolan was cute. That's about it.

Skydiver
September 9th, 2005, 06:56 PM
i'm glad that mitchell got some development, enjoyed sam's whole three scenes....and think this accomplished little more than to set up a potential replacement for garak when he's proven to be a lying, deceitful jerk

other than that.....well, liek someone said, walter's line was good

rosewood
September 9th, 2005, 06:58 PM
The city of Babylon was ruled at one time by Hammurabi. Hammurabi's code prescribed a code of conduct. The part that most people know is "an eye for an eye". Mitchell was getting killed for killing the Jaffa. So to me this episode was a "die for a die".

Nice to see Mitchell get to do something. Mitchell sowing the seeds of disbelief will hopefully mean something in the future. Liked all three of the Sodan - Haiku, and the two brothers. I missed their names. :p

I assume they did not hire William Davis to say and do absolutely nothing as the Prior, so presumably we will be seeing him and the Sodan again.

Nice to see Teal'c get to do something. Somebody better watch an episode of The Closer or Law & Order though to see how to conduct an interrogation. :p

And why Carter did absolutely no technogeek stuff to find Mitchell is mystifying. They better go back to that planet and try to learn about their personal cloaking devices too.

not so ancient
September 9th, 2005, 07:02 PM
OMG!

Cigarette-Smoking Ori!

I must get a screencap of Wm. B. Davis and put a lit Morley in his mouth.

MarshAngel
September 9th, 2005, 07:02 PM
Ahh yes Mitchell at work was another good thing. Glad to see it. Carter was geeking it in the background. It just didn't work. We don't need to see her fail... it would ruin her image.n

lord-anubis
September 9th, 2005, 07:06 PM
i fell kind of alone i liked this ep nothing impront happened i guess but i still found it insething

AGateFan
September 9th, 2005, 07:07 PM
oh, and I thought it was amusing that the Military (who I’m a big fan of BTW) is again shown as the great humanitarians (never leave a man behind) while the civilian observers are shown as the selfish Bstrds only interested in money, money, money. Irony that makes me happy. :)

babaganoosh
September 9th, 2005, 07:15 PM
Sci-fi channel goofed. It's not the season finale. It's the season hiatus.

I kinda liked the episode. A little "The Warrior"-esque. I liked the rapport the Jaffa and Mitchel had going on toward the end.

Who was thinking this when the Jaffa guy came forward to say he seeks retribution for the slain Jaffa was his kin? "Gee, didn't see that coming!"

AGateFan
September 9th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Sci-fi channel goofed. It's not the season finale. It's the season hiatus.

I kinda liked the episode. A little "The Warrior"-esque. I liked the rapport the Jaffa and Mitchel had going on toward the end.

Who was thinking this when the Jaffa guy came forward to say he seeks retribution for the slain Jaffa was his kin? "Gee, didn't see that coming!"

I liked the way they filmed the fight better in The Warrior.
And yes, it seemed quite obvious that Jaffa A was Jaffa Bs brother.... probably because they look like brothers.... probably because they actually are brothers.

SierraGulf1
September 9th, 2005, 07:24 PM
Time for my critique of Babylon:

SierraGulf1's Episode Evaluation of "9.08: Babylon"

I'll start by saying that while it wasn't a great episode, it was not horrid as some people say it was. I enjoyed seeing some action from Mitchell and while a tad on the boring side, I didn't find it hard to watch. I was kind of saddened that we haven't really seen the team work together yet, though I'm crossing my fingers for The Fourth Horseman, since it is a big episode that will requrie the team. Unfortunately, looks like they're separated in that one too, though.

The Prior didn't get to do much except stand around and look freakish, but we'll be seeing him later on.

I'm not really seeing the team care for each other. Earlier on on Stargate they felt unified, which is why I'd come to love the show. They just seem too apart. No Sam in episodes 1-5, and Teal'c and Mitchell were also shoved into the background. Beachhead had them working togetherish, but not really communicating. Ex Deus had them split up, and so did Babylon. Prototype is looking the same way. While I'm liking each episode as a story, and I'm liking all of the characters, I'm not seeing these characters interact any longer. Sam, Teal'c, and Daniel have had time to develop, as did Landry, and tonight Mitchell, but I'm not seeing them interact. Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c have been through a lot, where's the love? By the way, I'm just stating this now, nothing against this episode in paticular.

That's my only beef with season nine. As I said, the episodes as episodes are great. Speaking of characters, my usual character evaluation:

Mitchell finally got some character development, which I like. I think it may be a bit to early to be speaking lightly of Teal'c to his face, but I think Teal'c can bear with it. I like that he's determined to fight despite the fact that all seems lost, which is a character trait that is emphasized a lot with Mitchell. He seems insightful and sometimes more "deep" than he lets on when he's with SG-1. I kind of liked him in this episode.

Carter... Did Amanda Tapping get lost? We missed her enough in the first five.

Daniel still seems bitter over missing his ride to Atlantis. Ever since Beachhead Daniel has seemed a bit off to me. I'm hoping next week he'll be more Daniel. I'm hoping next week the team will be more of a team, too. Blargh.

Teal'c was noble and good, not much changed with him. I liked him, but there's just not much to say about him this time.

Landry is like Teal'c. Didn't hate him in this ep or anything, there just wasn't much Landry to see.

I like the Sodan plotline. I hope (and know due to spoilers) that we'll see more of them, I just hope the episode is a little more exciting. :p

I understand this review seemed a little negative, but that one minor detail has been off this season so far and I had to get that out. I still like the show and I'm hyped for next week's back-to-back, especially The Fourth Horseman.

I'm afraid Atlantis was a tad bit more exciting tonight, though, so here's how the episodes stand in my mind, best to worst (keep in mind I liked them all):

Avalon Part 2
The Powers That Be
Beachhead
Origin
Babylon
Avalon Part 1
Deus Ex Machina
The Ties That Bind

Cheers. :)

Major Tyler
September 9th, 2005, 07:24 PM
Other than possibly "Beachhead," this is my favorite episode of Season 9. I really don't know why I like it, I just know that I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm glad we got to know Mitchell a little better, and I enjoyed the Sodan storyline.

Bobthespirit
September 9th, 2005, 07:26 PM
That episode was..okay. It's good to see a *real* return to Stargate roots as far as episode style, and it's good to see Mitchell get an actual major part in an episode since the premeire. But....it didn't really seem like character development so much. We know so little except Mitchell except he's a regular guy with extraordinary willpower (Like 75% of male lead characters in scifi).

And that guy being the brother was extremely predictable. The whole thing was awfully predictable actually...replace 'Ori' with 'Gu'ald' and you've got five or six earlier Stargate episodes.

I'd still like to see the playing field evened up a bit more between the Ori and earth.

Sprinkles
September 9th, 2005, 07:31 PM
Sci-fi channel goofed. It's not the season finale. It's the season hiatus.

I kinda liked the episode. A little "The Warrior"-esque. I liked the rapport the Jaffa and Mitchel had going on toward the end.

Who was thinking this when the Jaffa guy came forward to say he seeks retribution for the slain Jaffa was his kin? "Gee, didn't see that coming!"

This episode was so-so, not great or awful just ok.
I liked the banter at the beginning, Mitchell imitation, Teal'c rolls his eyes and Daniel's comment 'need more bass'. and Walter's line at the end.
I'm hoping for more an actual team Episode in the future though.

JanusAncient
September 9th, 2005, 07:31 PM
I liked this episode, because it was an introduction to the "Fourth Horseman." Mitchell, had much to do, and to learn, in the attempt to achieve his goal, of making the Sodan see that the Ori are not gods. This was meant to introduce the Prior, that will face off against Orlin, an Ancient.

We learned of Ancient personal cloaking devices, transportation systems unlike ring transporters, capable of transporting people across a distance, that would take months to travel on foot. All in all, this episode gave an idea of what the rest of the season might have in store. The Ancient transport system looked a little like Thor's Hammer, that was extremely interesting.

Mattathias2.0
September 9th, 2005, 07:33 PM
I really enjoyed this episode.

I have never been interested too much in the Jaffa Council... except for Gerak because he is a bit - crazy... but the Sodan are very interesting. I look forward to new storylines with them.

Tony Todd did a great job as a leader.

I enjoyed the Teal'c-arc and Mitchell-arc in this episode.

I was happy to see Daniel not doing much. We saw alot of him in Avalon to The Powers That Be. It's nice to see him being out of the major picture.

I was also happy to see Carter not doing too much. We saw a huge dose of her in Beachhead and Ex Deus Machina.

Given this is only the beginning of the Season (as last year's 8th ep was Covenant... not exactly an 'eventful' episode ;)), I await some real action in the mid-season break and near the end of the season.

sgcfann
September 9th, 2005, 07:40 PM
I liked this episode better than the SGA ep that followed. Am I the only one who kept thinking "Candyman, Candyman, Candyman"??? ;)

Traveler Enroute1
September 9th, 2005, 07:50 PM
lord-anubis i fell kind of alone i liked this ep nothing impront happened i guess but i still found it insething

That makes 2 of us.

Sure, it didn't live up to fight scenes such as in The Warrior or Sam's hand to hand in Emancipation, but I give it an ok. A little too Trekish an ending, but hey.

And what happens to the brother who faked his death now that his own brother returns from SGC? I didn't hear him promise to, well, anything; keep mumm on his brother's deceit (Cain and Abel, anyone)? And won't he need tretonin? Two handsome kinsmen. And what IS it with jaffa leaders? Are they all pigheaded and/or power hungry, yet so ready to bow to yet another set of beings with "a bag of magic tricks?" as Mitchell said. Too bad. An interesting glimpse of a goa'uld free culture that still seems to want gods to follow. Hope we get a better peep at them again.

Chiefly so Carter can do her thing and figure out the personal invisibility gizmo. Dr. Lee seems quite brilliantly useless in the figuring out department. Has he ever really?

Over all, a fair ep. Curiously unoriginal combination of plots, but anything that gives more layers to Mitch has got to help down the road. He's no giver-upper, manages to communicate ideas (and apparently good will) and has his own pain style (a nod to the RDA Virtual Partyers). Leadership, well, it's coming. But he also seemed to be speaking through clenched teeth or jaws; was that on purpose since he'd been trounced several times? I hope so, so that we can listen to him without struggling next time.

Oh, and ex-X-files guy, he does spooky so well. He'll be back.

Teal'c looked good, but the interrogation as mentioned above, was a effective as his interrogation of the captured Anubis drone. Daniel looked good, too. Sam looked good. Caroline looked good. Ok, good looking ep.

And good ol' Gerak must be giving up other Jaffa worlds to the Ori, ya think?

Just sayin'.

TheCorpulent1
September 9th, 2005, 07:50 PM
I seem to follow the general concensus. I liked the ep but it wasn't as good as I thought it'd be. I liked the Mitchell stuff but I'd like to finally see the team work together as a TEAM at some point. A fairly average ep.

greytop
September 9th, 2005, 07:53 PM
I enjoyed the episode and the introduction of the Sodan.

Mio
September 9th, 2005, 07:54 PM
So...wait...these Jaffa learned how to BUILD Ancient technology. Thousands of years ago.... and still lived in huts...Err..... I find this immensly implausible. In order to build such incredibly advanced technology, you'd need a great deal of stuff that they just didn't have! Unless the Ancients had Replicators (a la Star Trek) and they just pushed a few buttons.

Also, you think Mitchell would have tried pointing out how the Ori and the Ancients are basically enemies.

greytop
September 9th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Also, you think Mitchell would have tried pointing out how the Ori and the Ancients are basically enemies.I believe in his own way, he did.

Mio
September 9th, 2005, 08:01 PM
I believe in his own way, he did.

You think he would have been a little more specific. I mean, There has to be a passage about the 'evil Alterans' in the book of Origin. They could have just looked it up. Don't you think a few people would have been upset when they realized that they just started worshipping the enemies of their gods?

In any case, to my post above, I think the replication thing may not be as far fetched as I originally thought. The asgard can do it....

Shivan
September 9th, 2005, 08:09 PM
I enjoyed the SGA episode much more, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling to see a team with a foundation and purpose that lends itself to the show.

the fifth man
September 9th, 2005, 08:12 PM
While I may not be among the majority, I thought this was a pretty good episode. Mitchell finally really got involved, getting some serious action. I mean, come on, groundbreaking events aren't supposed to happen every damn week. Little things build upon each other to form something big. The introduction of the Sodan may be one of those "little things". Some of you I think are expecting way too much. And even if you got it, others would find something to complain about. This season is far from over, and I just hope by its end, all of us, well, most of us anyway (some can never be pleased), will have seen enough things we like.

Mattathias2.0
September 9th, 2005, 08:13 PM
Could Mitchell have been more specific about the Ori & Ancients being enemies?

The Sodan have been solitary for about 5 thousand years. Choice or not: They are solitary. You can't expect them to act civil to outsiders (such as Mitchell).

By being more... blunt... could result in an execution.... which almost happened. After all, their leader is a devout believer in the Ori...

Needless to say, he needed to gain some respect from the Sodan before finally being more 'blunt', which he accomplished in the end.

TheGreatLordGeorge
September 9th, 2005, 08:18 PM
not my favorite episode but i liked it , the sodan storyline has potential . i also like how they had a shorter more rugged version of a staff weapon with a convienent(SP) strap. great character build up for cam

TheCorpulent1
September 9th, 2005, 08:19 PM
So...wait...these Jaffa learned how to BUILD Ancient technology. Thousands of years ago.... and still lived in huts...Err..... I find this immensly implausible. In order to build such incredibly advanced technology, you'd need a great deal of stuff that they just didn't have! Unless the Ancients had Replicators (a la Star Trek) and they just pushed a few buttons.
They could've believed in that whole balance between nature and technology thing. Maybe one of those huts contains all the technological gadgetry they'd need to build Ancient stuff.

jyh
September 9th, 2005, 08:21 PM
Yay!!! I actually LIKED this episode. :) Finally, finally, FINALLY, we have an ep in which there is actual character development, and Teal'c gets to say more than "Indeed." Now don't get me wrong, there are nitpicks (not enough for Sam & Daniel to do), but after all those weeks of the Daniel-and-Vala show, MS can afford to have a light week or two, and AT is still easing back to work, post-baby. I realize the four of them didn't have much screen time together, but at least they weren't split up and working on separate assignments. Anyway, here's the rundown:

- team went offworld - check
- met a new race - check
- character development (Mitchell) - check
- tying it in w/ the larger storyline of the Ori - check
- new technology we can possibly "borrow" in the future - check

I like how they referenced the "new" mindset in this country: the concerns about funding, and the cost of trying to find Mitchell. I also liked the hand-to-hand combat... it's nice to see something other than staff weapons & P-90s for a change.

I did think it was a bit cheesy when SG-1 was under fire at the beginning... it looked like the aggressors (Sodan) were purposely missing SG-1, as hardly any of their staff blasts came anywhere near the team. Also, did I hear right, and Sam used her walkie-talkie thing and called "Cameron"??? Talk about a breach in military protocol. She shouldn't even call him "Mitchell," but instead either Colonel or Sir. Also (last one, I promise)... if Teal'c called somebody "brother" one more time, I was going to throw something at him. I realize he was trying to establish the fact that he and the Sodan guy are really on the same side, but still... he said it at least three times, probably four.

These nitpicks aside, I really enjoyed this ep. My son & I looked at each other when it ended and said, "THAT was a good episode."

Way to go writers, you're on the right track!!! (finally)

the fifth man
September 9th, 2005, 08:23 PM
great character build up for cam

I totally agree. It was nice to see BB relaxing into the character a bit more now. Really gives me hope for him the rest of this season. :)

jree
September 9th, 2005, 08:32 PM
I liked this episode. The beginning of the show had a some team aspects to it and I want more of that. Ben/Mitchell and Michael/Daniel are starting to develop some good comedic timing and same goes for Ben/Mitchell and Chris/Teal'c. Amanda/Sam looks like she's smiling through the entire interaction between the three. More of that please. Is Carter supposed to call Mitchell "Cameron?" So the Ori are anhilating planets full of Jaffa huh? Mitchell can both fight and take a beating. He got back to the SGC without getting rescued by SG-1 which is different. I like the Sodan more than Gerak and the Free Jaffa. The Sodan remind me of Teal'c before he was fully exposed to Earth culture (w/o hair Teal'c) new and different but cool in his own way, imho.

jyh
September 9th, 2005, 08:36 PM
And what happens to the brother who faked his death now that his own brother returns from SGC? I didn't hear him promise to, well, anything; keep mumm on his brother's deceit (Cain and Abel, anyone)? And won't he need tretonin? Two handsome kinsmen.

Good point about the tretonin. I don't have concerns about the "other brother" keeping the secret about Mitchell still being alive (I choose to go with the 'blood is thicker than water' theory), but what WILL he do about the tretonin? How will he explain where he's been and what happened to him, and how well will that be accepted? For a supposedly 'advanced' or 'civilized' group of people (of varying races, I might add), they sure had some draconian views on people who visit their planet. Talk about shoot first and ask questions later!!

Mongo's Girl
September 9th, 2005, 08:43 PM
While I may not be among the majority, I thought this was a pretty good episode. Mitchell finally really got involved, getting some serious action. I mean, come on, groundbreaking events aren't supposed to happen every damn week. Little things build upon each other to form something big. The introduction of the Sodan may be one of those "little things". Some of you I think are expecting way too much. And even if you got it, others would find something to complain about. This season is far from over, and I just hope by its end, all of us, well, most of us anyway (some can never be pleased), will have seen enough things we like.

I agree. Gotta love Cam's stubborn determination to beat the odds.

I thought the guest stars did a great job, and I hope to see more of the Sodan very soon.

Loved the "Bones" comment. :)

the fifth man
September 9th, 2005, 08:51 PM
Loved the "Bones" comment. :)

Same here. Expect more of that kind of stuff. It just seems to be BB's style. :)

AGateFan
September 9th, 2005, 08:57 PM
Same here. Expect more of that kind of stuff. It just seems to be BB's style. :)
I am 99% sure that is not a BB adlib as it appeared to be in reference to the Star Trek ep where Kirk had to fight Spock and Dr Mcoy (bones) druged Kirk to make him look like he died. So I guess Mitchell is a Star Trek Fan Boy and came up with the plan. Which means he too knew that the 2 sodan were brothers, or at least suspected it and got it confirmed "off screen".

Traveler Enroute1
September 9th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Good point about the tretonin. I don't have concerns about the "other brother" keeping the secret about Mitchell still being alive (I choose to go with the 'blood is thicker than water' theory), but what WILL he do about the tretonin? How will he explain where he's been and what happened to him, and how well will that be accepted? For a supposedly 'advanced' or 'civilized' group of people (of varying races, I might add), they sure had some draconian views on people who visit their planet. Talk about shoot first and ask questions later!!

Agreed: with the Ori prancing about and the changes they bring, the brother with the tretonin will have to be really careful, or be considered a reason to obliterate the Sodan. Still think both brothers will somehow have to stand on opposite sides of the coming conflict (maybe command the symbiote be taken from one for the other). Drama, and all that.

And true, the "traditions" of the jaffa seem to be the same as the old goau'ld. Not only shoot first, but shoot to kill.

I originally saw the Sodan who captured Mitchell as afrocentric, then they went into the village and they were clearly a combo of asian as well. I can go with that. Early goa'uld were pretty vain about looks; these guys were descended from some cuties, apparently. Also the thing about their being an elite guard of some sort and the mix of warriors from Africa and Asia seemed to be a successful one, IMO, anyway.

Just sayin.

FoolishPleasure
September 9th, 2005, 09:12 PM
I enjoyed the episode, though I liked the Mitchell scenes the best. About time Browder got to DO something!

Teal'c had more to do as well - I think he has been short-changed this season.

Some nit-picks:

Why did SGC keep interrogating the Sodan? Why didn't they take him back to the planet and use him as leverage in getting Mitchell back?

Who the heck were those Asian kids they kept focusing on? At first I thought it was just a cute scene of the kids laughing at Mitchell's training antics, but they were shown over and over. My husband thought they might turn out to be Ancients among the Sodan, but that didn't pan out.

Why bring in the cig-dude from X-Files and have him do NOTHING? He never even spoke. Unless he is coming back????

The door seems to be open to revisit the Sodan people and they seem like they could be very interesting in the future. *crossing fingers*

RexxRacerX
September 9th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Hello. Long time lurker, first time poster.

Surprised by the negativity to this episode, I enjoyed it. Jaffa storyline was incredibly dull and bleak this season and needed something to pick it up. Introducing a new "faction" of legendary free Jaffa with their Ethics/Codes is exactly what was needed, IMHO. In previous seasons we had the same dynamic between the Goauld and Tok'ra and it worked well, so why not follow that same path with the evolved Free Jaffa storline?

Only things I disliked were minor...

1) Mitchell's impersonation of Teal'C, thought it was a little early for that type of dynamic. Teal'C and Mitchell have, however spent much time together this season, and perhaps this is showing a growing bond between the two characters.

2) Mitchell with the backwards hat, firing P-90 from the hip. Only excuse I can give to justify this is the fact that the guy was, until recently, a fighter pilot. Maybe this is the writers trying to show him "evolve" from no combat skills to later possessing them. :)

3) Scene with military all over the jungle after the Sodan engagement... many soldiers had on green cammo with desert (light brown) cammo boots. What was up with this?

This was one of the better episodes of the season so far in my book. I think this is a great story arc that will be further explored, and eventually solve the Gerak/Free Jaffa problems that exist today once they meld the Sodan into the Free Jaffa.

majorsal
September 9th, 2005, 09:33 PM
i liked it! :D i REALLY like mitchell/ben (my admiration of him has been growing since avalon 1), so an entire ep centered on him really worked for me. and it really worked because after avalon 1, he was pushed to the background. he *finally* had something to grab onto and make his own.

all the guest stars were great tonight. always a fan of tony todd (head sodan guy), and i liked the fighter mitchell trained with (i think this was the actor on 'without a trace' last night). the villiage looked super too, with details and such.

i missed more sam, but i loved getting to know mitchell (again).

my one quibble with this ep is lam. i don't like her disrespectful attitude with landry. from what i've been told over time, one of the reasons why sam and jack couldn't be together 'and' serve together was because of bias. well, lam is landry's daughter, and as far as i can see, he's letting her talk to him like he'd not let another sgc member. i don't care if lam isn't military, landry's still her boss and she should show respect. i wanted landry to say to her, 'either do what i say 'without' an attitude, or get out'. and stick to it. she needs a serious attitude adjustment.

ben is great as mitchell. he's charismatic and a good actor (and good looking). i really enjoyed this ep and i'm looking forward to knowing mitchell even more.

this ep was a winner to me! ;)

(needed more sam, though)



sally :D

Dana_Jeanne
September 9th, 2005, 09:55 PM
To qoute O'Neill :
"This is just a new game brought to you by our good friend--

The Last Samurai
Fair Game
A Hundred Days
Paradise Lost

I thought the point of this season was to be new and fresh, so far it hasn't.

You forgot Star Trek and the episode "Amock Time."

I'm really tired of all these 'homages'. How about a little originality for a change?

Dana Jeanne

fan457
September 9th, 2005, 10:06 PM
I would rate this a poor episode, for all the previously stated reasons. However I was very impressed with the Stargate Atlantis episode. Really good team dynamics, interesting solution to the problem, and some interesting personal dynamics. Nice make-up job too!

LaCroix
September 9th, 2005, 10:15 PM
You forgot Star Trek and the episode "Amock Time."

I'm really tired of all these 'homages'. How about a little originality for a change?

Dana Jeanne

I forgot about that one. Thank you.

Remember hypo-spray, hypo-spray.

majorsal
September 9th, 2005, 10:36 PM
I agree. Gotta love Cam's stubborn determination to beat the odds.



we really haven't had that much info to 'know' mitchell yet except for his extreme determination to prevail. and i *love* that! his compitition is himself.

i always know when i'm liking a character, when someone's beating on him and i yell out 'leave him alone!'. :p


sally :D

Amakusa
September 9th, 2005, 10:44 PM
I'm really tired of all these 'homages'. How about a little originality for a change?


Maybe you should look back at Stargate SG-1 from the beginning, and look how 'original' it was. Beings with high technology posing as gods. Pyramid-builders being extra-terrestials. Using a lightning rod to power a device in sore need of lightning-bolt power. Even the Asgard are rip-offs of the Roswell Greys.

What you ought to understand that there is NOTHING original. The only thing that matters is execution. Anyone that goes out to look for things to nit are NEVER going to enjoy the show for what it is.

MediaSavant
September 9th, 2005, 10:54 PM
There are two ways to rate an episode--on its own and within context of the series.

In the context of the series, this was a crucial episode. So far, we've had little character development for Mtichell. This episode provided that.

I see others sniping on the lack of focus on "team". Well, give that we had one key team member (Mitchell) with very little character background, that's never going to be established without an episode like "Babylon".

On its own, I'm biased. I come Farscape fandom and I like Browder. He demonstrated his considerable physical acting skills in this episode.

The ending was totally predictable to anyone who saw Star Trek, though.

Samuel J. Tilden
September 9th, 2005, 11:25 PM
Maybe you should look back at Stargate SG-1 from the beginning, and look how 'original' it was.
But in recent years, these "homages" have gotten more explicit to the point where characters now snidely remark about them. It's that kind of self-referentiality that drags the show down. The earlier seasons had their share of stock situations (rapid aging virus, AWOL military officer thinks he's God, de-evolution, android duplicates) but the writers never had the characters explicitly mock the situation the way Mitchell did tonight. It's difficult to take the show seriously when the writers are admitting outright that they're out of ideas.

LoneStar1836
September 10th, 2005, 12:35 AM
Nice work by Ben Browder. That’s about as much praise as I can muster for this episode other than it finally gave his character a little more substantial development.

Why the heck was Teal’c not armed with his staff weapon? Leave the SAW at home next time. It detracts from who he is. Just kind of makes him another “human” so to speak. Teal’c has always carried his staff weapon except on certain occasions. Why the change? Hmm...maybe that's just me but I didn't like it.

Albion
September 10th, 2005, 01:21 AM
Does it tell you all you need to know about my impression of this one, if I say that 10 minutes in I started reading the comments in this thread, one ear cocked on the soundtrack for Daniel, Sam or Teal'c to show up?

Mitchell...sorry, but he's just not doing it for me. It's not BB's fault, but increasingly I'm finding the character just...bland. The dialogue in the scripts has hardly been scintillating and it shows up especially in the teaser of this episode, where I found the 'banter' weak and pretty lame.

I still can't get a handle on who the heck is in charge of SG1 - again, Carter seemed much more competent and on the ball than Mitchell during the firefight.

I don't usually enjoy Jaffa episodes, so that's undoubtedly colouring my boredom threshold for this one, but even so...it was pretty unoriginal and uninspired, I thought.

I agree with those who are hankering after some team. And I'm afraid to say that my fears for the rest of the season seem to be panning out. That it was only Vala, the wonderful dialogue written for her, and her relationship/sparring with Daniel that made the first few episodes good for me. I had begun to suspect that once she was gone, the show would fall flat, and that seems to be a prediction that's turning out true. I'd hoped that the team element would get me past that, but I'm getting no sense of team from these guys and no sign of the banter/caring/ etc, as others have said.

I did enjoy seeing Carter in full soldier mode in the teaser. I always enjoy seeing that and she does it very well. If she's not in charge of SG1, she should be. I have the distinct feeling that with Mitchell looking out for them either he or they will be dead in five minutes flat. Heroically staying behind to let the rest of your team escape is all very well, but Jack would have managed to fire back at those Jaffa while using the best cover he could find. Not standing up in full view of those shooting back at you, nonchalently shooting from the hip. That's the response to an attack of a TV character, not a soldier. Which is disappointing, since SG has always made such an effort to produce the latter, not the former. One of the reasons the show was always a cut above the other SF shows I enjoyed for me.

More and more, the show seems to have been relegated to just one more show I watch. Which saddens me. It used to be something special. Now, most of the elements which made it so for me have been lost. The strong character relationship most of all. All character relationship seems to have been sacrificed in favour of action adventure. I don't mind the latter, but a balance with some scenes showing that these characters like each other would be very welcome about now.

Ah well...haven't heard any Sam, Daniel or Teal'c since I've been writing this...maybe I can fast forward to that line from Walter....

Hoping for an injection of team/character relationship at some point in this season. :( But I have to say that when there was a possibility that the search for Mitchell would be called off...I really didn't care either way whether we got him back or not. As I say, I don't dislike him. And I'd really like to like him. But for now...he just bores me.

Albion :)

esoap524
September 10th, 2005, 01:42 AM
Ah, gee, I liked it but I am partial to Ben. I thought he was very good. Since I don't know how to carry a rifle, I can't comment on whether or not he did it right.

Yeah, we weren't too thrilled about the team splitting up--and didn't THEY leave a man behind? And I wondered why no one went thru the Gate to look for him again. Maybe I missed something.

Still, I liked it quite a bit. I thought even less happened in Ex Deus Machina and there was a lot more speecifying going on in that episode. At least there was some fighting and some Mitchell in this one. That's always worth it.

I liked the way Mitchell sort of teased Teal'c--I do think these guys have spent enough time hanging out that it was Mitchell's way of needling the big guy; I doubt Teal'c would have cared. I also loved Mitchell saying something about "old enemies and new allies" which is straight off the SG1 season 9 promos, as well as the warrior guy telling Mitchell that he can't fight and talk at the same time, and he doesn't seem to have learned that lesson.

yeah, predictable, but that's ok. Ex Deus Machina was too--I watched it with friends who've watched some season 9 and no other SG1 and they figured out a lot of the plot before it happened.

binkpmmc
September 10th, 2005, 03:41 AM
snip, snip.

I did enjoy seeing Carter in full soldier mode in the teaser. I always enjoy seeing that and she does it very well. If she's not in charge of SG1, she should be. I have the distinct feeling that with Mitchell looking out for them either he or they will be dead in five minutes flat. Heroically staying behind to let the rest of your team escape is all very well, but Jack would have managed to fire back at those Jaffa while using the best cover he could find. Not standing up in full view of those shooting back at you, nonchalently shooting from the hip. That's the response to an attack of a TV character, not a soldier. Which is disappointing, since SG has always made such an effort to produce the latter, not the former. One of the reasons the show was always a cut above the other SF shows I enjoyed for me.

More and more, the show seems to have been relegated to just one more show I watch. Which saddens me. It used to be something special. Now, most of the elements which made it so for me have been lost. The strong character relationship most of all. All character relationship seems to have been sacrificed in favour of action adventure. I don't mind the latter, but a balance with some scenes showing that these characters like each other would be very welcome about now. Albion :)

Ding - that's the sound of the hammer hitting the nail on the head. I agree with the above 100%. The shoot from the hip stuff is just another aspect of why this character should NOT be in charge of THIS SG1 team (if he even is).

Seastallion
September 10th, 2005, 04:38 AM
Also, did I hear right, and Sam used her walkie-talkie thing and called "Cameron"??? Talk about a breach in military protocol. She shouldn't even call him "Mitchell," but instead either Colonel or Sir.

Yeah, you heard right, but I really wouldn't fret over it. The fact is, that she and Mitchell are the same rank. When Mitchell was going to first join SG-1 he had expected to be serving under Carter. The only reason Mitchell is in command, and she isn't, is because there was no SG-1 until Mitchell reconstituted it. In any case, I don't think of the 'new' SG-1 as I did the 'old' SG-1. The 'new' team is much more a team of equals, in which Mitchell is only technically the superior officer by default. Don't get me wrong, the 'old' team was a close-knit band of *cough* brothers *cough* ( *thinking to myself that calling Sam a 'brother' is somehow just so wrong* ). However, the difference is that Col. O'Neill was the undisputed leader of the SG-1, despite his close friendship with the members of his team. Mitchell is the leader, but mostly only by title. He respects the 'old' SG-1 members way too much to get too cocky with them. He wanted to work with the best, and he knows he'd best treat them that way.

About Mitchell being 'rude' to Teal'c by talking about him behind his back... I didn't take it that way. While he very much respects the team, I think he is also wise enough to know they're people too, that can make mistakes. His informal banter with them lets them know he's not going to take them way too seriously (that would be bad... no one wants a 'puppy' following them around), despite his great respect. Also Cam new that Teal'c was well within earshot of what he was saying, so he wasn't really talking behind his back (well, okay, literally speaking he was... but only because he actually was behind Teal'c's back.).

I liked this episode, and while it wasn't on par with say... "The Lost City" or "Heroes" it was still a good episode. We needed some character development for Cam, and we finally got a little. This is what we know so far about Cam --

*- He's a fighter, unwilling to give up easily, even when the odds seem to be stacked against him.
*- He likes movies and TV, as shown by his constant quotes.
*- He may or may not have a slight thing for Dr. Lam.
*- About the only thing he seems to take real seriously, are his commanding officers... everything else is fair game. I think he probably does it to hide his own bewilderment. He's like a kid in a candy-store when it comes to off-world adventures, but since he's still relatively new he really hasn't quite gotten used to the 'weirdness' of space yet.
*- He's learning not to run off at the mouth as much, particularly when dealing with the Jaffa who don't mix well with it. As evidenced by his holding back further explanation when he admitted to killing the Sodan Warrior.
*- He's picked up a few fighting moves... probably still not as skilled in single hand-to-hand combat as Teal'c (Teal'c has the advantage of size, strength, and experiance in combat), but given he was trained in an elite form of Sodan martial arts he could probably hold his own against Teal'c much better than O'Neill could have.

I found the Sodan interesting, but I think they are probably headed for some sort of division, perhaps even civil war. I think the Ori would very much like to get the Sodan as followers, because it would give them elite trained warriors to do their bidding already in our galaxy, meaning they are familiar with the territory.

I don't really have much to nit-pick over... mainly because I don't look for things to pick at. I simply watch to enjoy the show, and consciously take note of the parts of the show I enjoy the most. I have very little negative input on any episode I watch. Maybe I set my default level for enjoyment at what many people apparently consider a 'mediocre' level, so when a show has good points in it, the show automatically exceeds any expectations. And when a show is really good, it just blows me away. :) On the otherhand, it could just be that I'm not picky as some folks, so by default I'm not so hard to please. Personally, I think the latter is true. ;)

...and now... to prove my "un-picky-ness"... I rate this episode: Outstanding..!!! :D

1DanielForMe
September 10th, 2005, 04:55 AM
All in all, I found this episode rather mediocre. It's probably my least favourite season 9 episode so far. I did love the bit when Cameron was impersonating Teal'c, though!

Temporarily_cloned
September 10th, 2005, 05:39 AM
Why bring in the cig-dude from X-Files and have him do NOTHING? He never even spoke. Unless he is coming back????

I knew I saw this actor somewhere before! Thanks, FoolishPleasure :)

ShimmeringStar
September 10th, 2005, 05:50 AM
What you ought to understand that there is NOTHING original. The only thing that matters is execution. Anyone that goes out to look for things to nit are NEVER going to enjoy the show for what it is.
True... there's nothing original under the sun. It's only on how those same 26 (or was it 36?) plot lines (in books, movies, TV series, sitting around the campfire telling stories... :rolleyes: ) are packaged to the next generation that makes it seem new to them. And what makes it interesting is the unexpected & different twists that the writers put on it. And most importantly, when you have the actors/actresses who have the skills/range and 'newness' to the viewers to sell it as something new.

So I can understand many posters' POV that it is the same stuff in exactly the same execution 'cause I share some of their sentiments along those lines. The 'original team' SG that drew me in, while it was a 20-years later rehash of the focus and fascination on all things Eygptian created in the 1970's with the Tutenkhamen exhibit that toured the world, it did put its own spin on the mythology and kept it fairly close to present day reality. And the actors for the most part were talented and new enough to most of us that it was a pleasure to get to know them as well as the characters they played.

IMOHO there's nothing new about the execution of these retreaded plots, and very little that's new in the acting department. (And I do like CB and BB from their Farscape days.)
There are two ways to rate an episode--on its own and within context of the series.

In the context of the series, this was a crucial episode. So far, we've had little character development for Mtichell. This episode provided that.I agree it provided development for him and that it wasn't a completely terrible episode. But there were times I kept thinking oh good... they've got Ben & they can take this dramatic arc to a really *wow* kind of place in the 10 minutes before the next commercial break... and (at least for me) that didn't happen. I wanted it to be a *wow* since I really like SG & there's only next week's shows before we're left high & dry here in the States 'til the 2nd half of the season starts, but it wasn't... :( (although to get a close-up view of BB's baby blues and *ahem* chest was some nice eye candy.... :D )

jyh
September 10th, 2005, 05:53 AM
all the guest stars were great tonight. always a fan of tony todd (head sodan guy), and i liked the fighter mitchell trained with (i think this was the actor on 'without a trace' last night). the villiage looked super too, with details and such.
:D


Omigod!!! You're right! The guy Mitchell bonded with (I think his name was Jolan) WAS the same guy from Without a Trace, which episode had been on the night before. I kept saying to my son "That guys looks so familiar!" but I couldn't place him.... silly me, I'd only seen him less than 24 hours earlier. Thanks for noticing that, Majorsal. Also, I remember seeing Tony Todd years ago in one or two episodes of Hercules. Even then he played a king or some other head dude. The guy just exudes authority, I guess. And I gotta say, I loved, loved, LOVED watching Mitchell train. Altho it seemed an awful lot to ask of someone who had just been staff-blasted the day before. But I realize the episode spanned a few weeks, so I'm going to go with the asusmption that he at least got to start out slow and work his way up to all that running & fighting!

scifiannie
September 10th, 2005, 06:48 AM
Looks like I'm the only one who liked the episode a lot. About time they put Mitchell front and center. Loved the been-there-done-that reference to coming close to death (he almost died shooting down the alkesh) and all the southernisms. I liked the fly-boy swagger, too. And the fact that he isn't all macho like the captured Sodan warrior. Ben Browder really knows how to do pain and suffering and when that's over, the charm came through. I could believe he brought his enemy over to his side.

But I do think, as somone else said, the episode was derivative. Not all that familiar with other SG episodes (I didn't really think it was similar to the Warrior except the single combat aspect...) but I did see The Last Samauri all over the place, including the constant cutaways to the two children. Then again, if you listen to any of the Peter deLuis (sp?) commentaries on the DVDs (he directed Babylon) he steals from stuff anytime he can...

But I was happy to see Mitchell finally take center stage.

chocdoc
September 10th, 2005, 07:00 AM
I really wanted to like this episode, but for me, it was just boring. I want to like Mitchell, but this episode didn't make me like him more or less. I like Ben Browder, but I am just not getting into the Mitchell character much. I know this can change for me--I am planning on it. No offense to BB fans though, but I don't get why this actor is top billing. He's good, but no better than the three originals still on the show. I just don't see the wow factor here.

I also see Carter as far more competent as the leader and as military officer at this point. It still is not apprarent to me why Mitchell would be the leader---it isn't even clear that he really is.

And Lam---I am not warming up to her at all. She should not be at SGC with that kind of attitude toward her father. Her behavior toward Landry seemed highly inappropriate and unprofesional to me. They may have father-daughter conflict, but it needs to be contained while on the job.

I am glad that Mitchell had the spotlight because it was about time, but it may have been better to have Mitchell and one other team member together working against the odds. I needed just a bit more team in the episode, and not just "the Mitchell episode."

And the plot was predictable---way too predictable.

TPTB said we would be getting team episodes (like what is happening in SGA!)---we need those now. We need to know that all four care about each other. Even if they would have had Teal'c, Sam, and Daniel all greeting Mitchell when he came back through the stargate---something. This episode had too much of "one character with the guest star syndrome" rather than more interaction with the four main cast members.


I'm usually not so pessimistic, so looking forward to next week's two episodes!!!! They could be great! (And have liked the last two episodes before this one).

Agent_Dark
September 10th, 2005, 07:21 AM
Also, did I hear right, and Sam used her walkie-talkie thing and called "Cameron"??? Talk about a breach in military protocol. She shouldn't even call him "Mitchell," but instead either Colonel or Sir.
Ummm, calling someone Sir or Colonel over the radio is also a massive breach in communication protocol.... But it doesn't seem to stop anyone for the past 8 years...
Actually, its probably 'better' to go by first name anyway. They're alot more common then surnames, which makes it harder for an enemy listening in to identify who's being addressed.


I did enjoy seeing Carter in full soldier mode in the teaser. I always enjoy seeing that and she does it very well. If she's not in charge of SG1, she should be. I have the distinct feeling that with Mitchell looking out for them either he or they will be dead in five minutes flat.
For a guy who supposedly spent '6 months in Airborne Training at Fort Benning' he didn't learn much hey? :rolleyes:
Teal'c indicates that he's heard something, so what does Mitchell do? Stand next to Daniel and start yakking on about something. 'Gee, there might be enemies around, but Teal'c can take care of it right? I'll just have a nice little chat with Dr. Jackson and an Earl Grey, no milk.'
Why would the person with a Sub-Machine Gun stay back and cover when Teal'c is carrying a freakin support weapon. They don't make those things just to look cool...

Pretty much no Sam and next to no Daniel :\ What the hell happened to the team part of SG1??? Sure there have always been episodes that have focused more on one character, but so far we've seen jack all team together-ness :S

IMO the writers have made Mitchell way too flippant and sarcastic. O'Neill had the sarcasm down pat and only used it when it was called for, to good effect. Mitchell on the other hand seems to try and make a joke about everything, and most of the time just falls flat :|

The rest of the show was okay... definately better than Ties That Bind (at least it had something worthwhile to offer to the overall storyline) but still pretty average compared to other episodes. I kept wondering when Tom Cruise would show up and lead the Sodan to battle against the Ori though...
The Sodan warrior guys themselves weren't bad. I'll be happy to see them come back. Lord Haidon kept reminding me of Morpheus for some reason :confused:

SierraGulf1
September 10th, 2005, 07:54 AM
Lord Haidon kept reminding me of Morpheus for some reason :confused:

Holy hell, I didn't realize it at first but you're right. :eek:

LaCroix
September 10th, 2005, 08:01 AM
Agent_Dark

The person that played Lord Haidon was Tony Todd, (it's almost like Lord Rayden from Mortal Kombat). At first I thought it was Isaac Hayes from Reckoning and that they were trying to relive their glory days.

That is by association, Isaac Hayes was in Escape From New York along with
Kurt Russell.

Also let me augment my previous post by saying that, when Mitchell was using "Bones" it was almost like their trying to make him into another O'Neill--
Phasers, We can't call it Enterprise?

Dave Thomer
September 10th, 2005, 08:02 AM
the writers never had the characters explicitly mock the situation the way Mitchell did tonight. It's difficult to take the show seriously when the writers are admitting outright that they're out of ideas.
I didn't so much take it as mocking, as Mitchell recognizing the parallel.

Have you ever watched a show or a movie, and seen a character about to make the same dumb move that hundreds of characters before him have made, and yelled something like, "C'mon, dummy, you never split up to go down the dark hallway! Haven't you ever watched any TV?" Well, here we have Mitchell in a situation he's seen before. And so he actually uses his pop culture knowledge to possibly find a solution. I think that's actually kinda neat.

I'm assuming that Mitchell helped come up with the plan, which I don't know for sure. A problem with the episode is that it doesn't show you the decision point, or let you understand why the Sodan decided not to kill Mitchell. I do think that's a recurring problem with the season and with the entire series, but hey, it is what it is.

What I did like about the ep was Mitchell's approach to solving the problem. He was calm but forceful, he focused on trying to figure out the best way to connect with the people around him, and he didn't let his personal problems get in the way of trying to work against the Ori. It may be because I like Browder, but I do see Mitchell's people skills being one thing that might set him apart.

puddlejumper747
September 10th, 2005, 08:06 AM
I didn't think this was a bad episode. Certainly not the best one this season, but....it was still alright.
It at least had enough momentum to kept me interested/awake for an hour. It wasn't that unimpressive.

Some questions I had, though.
1) This legendary group of rebel Jaffa....where do they get new symbiotes from, once the ones they're carrying mature enough to start taking hosts, and once their children grow old enough to require one for themselves?

2) The Jaffa-dude who they sent back home to that planet....did he take tretonin with him? I mean, I thought he needed to take regular doses of it to survive. It's not a one-time dose, is it? Will he just take another symboite?

3) And when he tells everyone that Mitchell is still alive back on Earth (which, I assume, he almost certainly will)....what's going to happen to his brother for allowing and helping Mitchell to escape? Will they overlook it, since blood never really had been shed in the first place? Or will his brother convince him not to say anything about it?

4) And what the heck happens with the Prior threat? We have the village leader convinced, and Jaffa resistance group against the Ori forming, and everyone on the planet in danger of being wiped out if they try to fight....is this storyline ever going to be revisited in any later episodes, or are we just supposed to never find out? :S

akimbo
September 10th, 2005, 08:12 AM
I liked this ep, too. So don't worry, there are plenty of us out here. :D

I definitely saw the parallels to other SG-1 eps, TOS and Last Samurai (right down to the reactions of the kids watching Mitchell train and providing a running commentary on his progress - I can't wait for Peter DeLuise to tell us in the commentary how he "lifted" that one :D ).

The audience knew the two warriors were brothers, the audience saw the "drug induced almost death" (or some other familiar plot device) coming to save Mitchell (you didn't think he was going to die did you?) and many of you probably heard the familiar TOS fight music in your head during the last fight scene (I know I did). But I didn't think of it as a bad thing.

I agree with what others have said though: it's the execution of familiar stories, the unique twists that let you enjoy it or not. How many "buddy" movies have you watched? Which ones worked and which ones didn't? They're all formulaic and derivative. Some are definitely better than others. And as usual, its all about the characters and the interpretation than it is the actual plot points.

I loved that they used this opportunity to get to see more of Mitchell. He took the thinking man's warrior to Sodon and won them over with his physicality and tenacity before pressing too hard about the Ori. (Knowing that pressing too hard could get you killed is a good thing.)

I loved knowing that Ben Browder did most of his own stunts and has that physical presence (even if he doesn't quite know how to fire a P90 yet). But I also liked the small moments between Mitchell and the Sodon warriors...how he won them over or at least made them think about it.

I liked the opening scene when we actually saw the team all at the same time in the same scene. (Cool! Want more of that!) I liked that Mitchell felt comfortable enough with Teal'c to pick on him with the team, but that the team is not quite "settled" with each other yet.

The stuff back at the SGC, though, didn't do it for me and felt a bit jumbled. Like they were desperately trying to make sense of how they could be looking for Mitchell for weeks without actually doing anything but talking about it. That didn't seem quite as well executed as even some of the other SG-1 eps (Solitudes, Crystal Skull, Hundred Days, etc.). But its also true that the SGC weren't going to come up with the magic bullet that finds/saves Mitchell, because Mitchell saves himself. (Huzzah for Mitchell saving himself!) So the SGC couldn't really succeed and make the plot work. Poor Dr. Lee though. :P

I'm going to take the ep for what it was: a springboard that accomplishes a lot for future eps:
- It establishes Mitchell's character a little better
- It acquaints us with the Sodon and gives us an ally there
- It introduces Smoking Man Prior
- It was also fun to watch.

So while it might not be the masterpiece of Heroes or Threads or "insert favorite ep here", it was quite satisfying for me.

Albion
September 10th, 2005, 08:14 AM
IMO the writers have made Mitchell way too flippant and sarcastic. O'Neill had the sarcasm down pat and only used it when it was called for, to good effect. Mitchell on the other hand seems to try and make a joke about everything, and most of the time just falls flat :|

Can only agree with this, too. Again, for me, it comes down to the difference between SG being an above par, special show that had an air of reality about it, where the responses of the characters were rarely that of TV characters, but of real human beings, and SG just being another same old, same old TV show.

Jack always had a reason for his humour. Whether it was to distract an enemy's attention away from his team and onto him, or to defuse a tense situation or a hundred other reasons. There was always a reason. Mitchell's humour - returning to the theme of real people -v- TV characters acting to a specific set of rules we see in all shows - is just the wisecracking for the sake of it leading man.

I just don't get the same sense that this guy is what he's supposed to be as I used to with Jack. Or that I do with Daniel, Sam and Teal'c. When they said or did something, I believe in them utterly. I knew that when Daniel tried to translate something it wasn't because he'd read it in the script two hours earlier but because he'd spent years studying languages. When Jack started shooting, I knew he was competent with a gun because he'd spent years training in the military.

But so far with Mitchell - I see an actor playing a character as scripted. No more, no less. And that's not really a criticism of BB, I hasten to add. It simply means he's doing the same job as any other TV actor in any other show I watch. And that for me is precisely the problem. RDA and everyone else previously involved in the show did something more, elevated it to something I'd never seen before, invested it with that sense of reality, of watching people not characters. Something above and beyond the norm. And it was that that attracted me to SG in the first place. I knew I was watching something superior to everything else that was out there.

I have the same problem with Landry and Lam, I have to say. They aren't real to me in the same way that Hammond and Frasier were.

Maybe they can't ever be. Perhaps, for a time, we simply had a golden age, that marvellous serendipity where luck and fate as much as skill and talent mean all the elements come together precisely to make something sparkle. A classic. And maybe once that's gone, it's impossible to recreate.

That doesn't mean that SG is now a bad show. Or a poor one. Or that I've lost interest in watching it or don't enjoy it any more. Just that it's one show I enjoy among many. Rather than being so high above everything else I watched that nothing else came close.

Albion :)

VironX
September 10th, 2005, 08:18 AM
i actually liked the episode....... but w/e

Dave Thomer
September 10th, 2005, 08:42 AM
Some questions I had, though.
1) This legendary group of rebel Jaffa....where do they get new symbiotes from, once the ones they're carrying mature enough to start taking hosts, and once their children grow old enough to require one for themselves?

2) The Jaffa-dude who they sent back home to that planet....did he take tretonin with him? I mean, I thought he needed to take regular doses of it to survive. It's not a one-time dose, is it? Will he just take another symboite?
1) The Sodan leader mentioned that from time to time they conduct raids on the Goa-uld to get new symbiotes.

2) Presumably they can give one of these symbiotes to the rescued Jaffa. (Tretotin isn't an irreversible thing, is it?)

I'd also say it's likely that Earth will contact the Sodan again, so it's possible that some kind of trade will be opened. Or the Prior will do something to heal the symbiote-less Jaffa.

ixchup
September 10th, 2005, 08:45 AM
Jack always had a reason for his humour. Whether it was to distract an enemy's attention away from his team and onto him, or to defuse a tense situation or a hundred other reasons. There was always a reason. Mitchell's humour - returning to the theme of real people -v- TV characters acting to a specific set of rules we see in all shows - is just the wisecracking for the sake of it leading man.

I just don't get the same sense that this guy is what he's supposed to be as I used to with Jack. Or that I do with Daniel, Sam and Teal'c. When they said or did something, I believe in them utterly. I knew that when Daniel tried to translate something it wasn't because he'd read it in the script two hours earlier but because he'd spent years studying languages. When Jack started shooting, I knew he was competent with a gun because he'd spent years training in the military.

But so far with Mitchell - I see an actor playing a character as scripted. No more, no less. And that's not really a criticism of BB, I hasten to add. It simply means he's doing the same job as any other TV actor in any other show I watch. And that for me is precisely the problem. RDA and everyone else previously involved in the show did something more, elevated it to something I'd never seen before, invested it with that sense of reality, of watching people not characters. Something above and beyond the norm. And it was that that attracted me to SG in the first place. I knew I was watching something superior to everything else that was out there.

I am a lurker here and love reading all of the varied responses to Babylon. I also have to admit my prejudice: I come from Farscape fandom and am not as immersed in the Stargate universe (although I have seen many episodes). I find it fascinating that people are concentrating on comparing Mitchell to O'Neill in terms of Mitchell's competance to lead. I think what Ben Browder and the writers are building is a character of another stripe than O'Neill's cynicism and snark (that I agree is always used as a leadership tool). Someone earlier said that Mitchell is unsure of himself and covers his insecurity and maybe fear by being a wise ass. I like the fact that the man is not perfect and that he is awkward still. Yes, he is supposed to be the Leader of SG-1 and that he was chosen by O'Neill and Landry because he had leadership qualities. I think we are seeing that his qualities are not tactical or strategic (which are more Teal'c and Sam's skills) but people oriented. The man is great with people. He disarms with charm and grace.

Ben is building a layered performance based on his physicality and slightly goofy/gawky persona. And yet, he stood there in front of Haikon like a soldier and did not bend. He does have The Right Stuff and can hold his own. I also think the man is very intelligent and deep. Look at his arguments to the Sodan about freedom and not loosing faith because it is what sustains you when times are hard. Haikon needs to SEE to believe. The other Sodan (based on that brother who ended up at SGC) also seem to be very grounded. Mitchell is a believer in himself and fate as well as a higher power. He sold that well. So he uses his sarcasm to disarm and relax people vs. O'Neill using it to push hard on people.

This was a high quality episode that really gave Ben some physical acting, something he is amazingly good at. The fact that the ep was self-referential is charming to me. Most of Stargate is very boring (sorry guys) because it doesn't deal in deep characterizations (at least in its later years). Everything is usually tied up in an nice ribbon at the end of the ep. This ep left things untied and awkward. Look at Mitchell's face at the end of the ep. It is saying "We're so screwed."

I give this ep an A because it moved me, was exciting, and sexy as all get out.

Maj_Cliffhanger
September 10th, 2005, 08:53 AM
Hmmmm... I still need to sit down and rewatch 'Deus Ex Machina' but as fate would have it, I actually watched this one three times last night - family issues. I also haven't had a chance yet to read everyone else's comments like I normally prefer to do before posting my own, but I could get interrupted at any minute and want to post - sorry if I repeat something someone else has said - these are just my two cents, and I'm not sure it's worth that much.

Anyway, this one was quite possibly my favorite episode of the season so far. I'm a big Daniel fan and I've never seen Farscape, so no prejudice pulling me to make this statement - it was simply nice to see a Mitchell episode. And I really liked the character. We've been getting 'glimpses' up til now and it was nice to see something more indepth.

Okay, so, my normal breakdown of stuff...

What I liked:
I'm going to have to limit myself here or I'd list about everything, so...
1. The kids. The little breakaways to see their reactions to Mitchell's training was great. They never said a word but they never had too. I loved it! And I want to see them again. Kinda surprising how such a background character(s) can have such an impact.

2. "Good job, Bones." Grin! Yeah, you know that ruse had to be Mitchell's idea because the whole thing was taken directly from Star Trek's 'Pon Far' episode - wherein Kirk has to battle Spock to the death and McCoy(Bones) injects him with a special drug to make it look like he died. I don't mind it at all when SG steals from other shows, I think it's a great tribute to those shows - but I like it even better when the tribute is a little subtle like this. I didn't click on the simularity until Mitchell called the guy 'Bones'

3. The Sodan may be following the Orii at the moment, but Mitchell (And Daniel and Teal'c) have definitely planted the seeds of doubt. I really want to see how this story line plays out.

What I didn't like:
Not much to say here right now. I didn't actually make notes as I was watching it like I normally do and nothing is coming to mind. I did spot a couple of possible plot holes, which hopefully will be explained in later episodes.
1. How could the captured Sodan warrior return home unless they had some arrangement for him to get regular shipments of Tritonine?

2. Oh, I can't think that his brother is going to be in a very good position when this guy shows up alive and tells them Mitchell is still alive! He just deceived the entire clan and basically circumvented one of their 'laws'... So does the brother not tell them?

3. I would have liked a clearer idea of whether the captured warrior still considered Mitchell an enemy. I know on first viewing I thought he was making a definite threat at the end - but after the subsequent two viewings last night... I'm not so sure. I don't know why but I was left with the impression that, while the guy might consider that they have 'unfinished business' and need to fight it out, that it wouldn't be a fight to the death. There was a hint of mutual respect there that left me going 'hmmmm....'
Okay, so maybe that's not a negative thing. I'm wanting to see how this thread resolves.

Overall grade: A
__
Maj_Cliffhanger :rolleyes:

IMForeman
September 10th, 2005, 09:05 AM
I enjoyed it. I liked getting to know Cam a little better. This episode went the longest way in distinguishing him from O'Neill. Jack, would never have gotten through this episode. He just wouldn't have cooperated with the Sodan in training and setting up for a fight. This was Mitchell's story through and through.

I also think some important things were either set up, or touched apon in this story. I think that it's pretty clear that Cam is hiding a devout belief in God himself. He said that "he'd already been there" in response to Haikon's jibe about "when you are facing your own death, maybe you will understand." I think Mitchell had some sort of religious experience when he was in that crashed 302 in Antarctica. That's why he worked so hard to recover. That's why he worked so hard to get into SG-1. That's why he said "Did I mention I'm on a mission from God" in "Avalon." I think that last one was more than just a Blues Brothers reference. Mitchell is working toward a specific goal. Something he had a vision of. We'll see...

-IMF

IMForeman
September 10th, 2005, 09:06 AM
Oh, and people... he's not the Cigarette Smoking Ori!

He's the Cigarette Smoking Prior. There's a distinction. ;)

-IMF

Mattathias2.0
September 10th, 2005, 09:15 AM
Omigod!!! You're right! The guy Mitchell bonded with (I think his name was Jolan) WAS the same guy from Without a Trace, which episode had been on the night before. I kept saying to my son "That guys looks so familiar!" but I couldn't place him.... silly me, I'd only seen him less than 24 hours earlier. Thanks for noticing that, Majorsal. Also, I remember seeing Tony Todd years ago in one or two episodes of Hercules. Even then he played a king or some other head dude. The guy just exudes authority, I guess. And I gotta say, I loved, loved, LOVED watching Mitchell train. Altho it seemed an awful lot to ask of someone who had just been staff-blasted the day before. But I realize the episode spanned a few weeks, so I'm going to go with the asusmption that he at least got to start out slow and work his way up to all that running & fighting!

Tony Todd played Cecrops and King Gilgamesh on Hercules, and also played a guest role on Xena, in "The Lost Mariner."

akimbo
September 10th, 2005, 09:19 AM
Oh, and people... he's not the Cigarette Smoking Ori!

He's the Cigarette Smoking Prior. There's a distinction. ;)

-IMF

Ooops. :(

Let me go fix that. ;)

IMForeman
September 10th, 2005, 09:26 AM
Ooops. :(

Let me go fix that. ;)

It's ok... just don't let it happen again. ;)

-IMF

jckfan55
September 10th, 2005, 09:51 AM
Well it was an ok episode.
On the positive side: I liked that we got to see more of Mitchell, though mainly all we had reinforced is that he's a determined guy and he has a sense of humor. (The Teal'c imitation was pretty good.) Although it was kind of cliched, I liked the kids watching Mitchell's progress in the training.

On the down side:
If anyone *didn't* know that they guy training him would be the one fighting him from the get go, I'd be terribly surprised.
Almost no team interaction. Daniel didn't get to do much and Sam spent most of the episode off camera doing her science stuff. Nice delivery by AT on the Dr. Lee line.
Except for one line about not leaving a man behind, there didn't seem to be any urgency about finding Mitchell.
Dr. Lam--I'm sick of her being cranky with General Landry. they need to either deal her problem or drop it. I'm sure they don't want to try to replace Fraiser--who could?--but she's such a cold fish I'd prefer Dr. Warner if I were SG1.

Uber
September 10th, 2005, 10:44 AM
Okay, okay. A few others have talked me off the ledge and I'm now reconsidering my original assessment of Babylon.

As a Cam development story, it was fair...incredibly predictable (I doubt anyone was actually surprised when we learned the guy training Cam would be the one to fight him or that he was related to the man Cam shot) and the drugging idea is as old or older than Star Trek Amok Time...but inasfar as we now know Cam has more depth than a puddle, fine.

I was happy to see take charge Sam at the beginning but all that does is remind me that the leadership issue is still an issue...not at all resolved in my little world. Sure, if Cam were building a team of newbies, fine...but we're talking Sam, Teal'c and Daniel...and it's personally clear to moi that Sam's the one who should be in charge because she's the one with offworld experience and FCOL, she's earned it. Plus there's that nagging character issue of why would someone who lead a team be willing to return as a 2nd...little things like that.

All in all, they should never have had the episode The Ties that Bind and should have moved things around a bit to show Babylon earlier...because I think a Cam development story was more important than there little romp through the stargates in that it would have established Cam's character a little more...though I still see him as just a member of the team who's there to "learn from the best"...

So IMHO, Babylon should have been earlier, The Ties that Bind should NEVER have been aired and this episode should have been a "team working together building chemistry" episode...because right now, like I said earlier, I see no team...just a group of people with matching patches.

:cool:

Bobthespirit
September 10th, 2005, 10:47 AM
Okay, one thing that's been bothering me about this episode...

If the Sodan exist, why didn't they try to contact them while the gu'ald were a threat? And furthermore, if the Jaffa know about a rebel group of Jaffa that successfully defied the gu'ald, why did they EVER think the gu'ald were all-seeing and impossible to defeat?

A lot of things the Jaffa can do and know seem to contradict other things the Jaffa do. If Bra'tac was able to know that Teal'c was still brainwashed just by grabbing his arm, why didn't he know that guy in Lost City was working for the other side? Stargate needs to work on these little contradictions, they didn't relaly start showing up this blatantly till season seven or so.

Stargate has given the protagnoists too much technology. The existance of Asgard transporters opens up all the same 'Why don't they just..?' scenarios that have always been a problem in Star Trek.

whatswiththehairtealc
September 10th, 2005, 10:55 AM
::awakens from a deep sleep:: wow that was a great nap....uh...i mean episode of Stargate!! seriously what happened. I'm kinda getting bored of this; prior come to a planet, convince local people to woreship the ori. sg 1 finds out and convince them not to. boring!!!! in the begining i was posting in the PRO S9 fourm, but lately i have been dabaling in the this season sucks fourm. COME on lets see some SG1 finds some ancient technology and kicks the heck out of the damn ori. maybe the second part of the season will be better.

Oreo
September 10th, 2005, 11:07 AM
This episode was so terrible it made episodes from season 7-8 look good!!!

GateAngel
September 10th, 2005, 11:39 AM
Now That's What I'm Talking about
I voted pretty good. I knew they had to have an episode coming up in which they showcased Mitchell and I was really worried it would be a let down.

I'm glad my worries were unfounded and I'm glad I finally got an episode where I could feel a connection to Mitchell and really see his character stand out. I admit I did cringe a bit with Star Trek reference Mitchell made because that was waay too much into 'John Crighton' territory. Crighton was always making pop culture references the others on the show didn't get.

The one thing that stood out for me in this episode (besides the very adorable Tatiania Shanks) was that the writers are really enjoying being able to write physical action scenes for their lead military character again. That having someone in that kind of role that is as able to be athletic as Ben Browder gave them something to work with.

I like that Mitchell ended up friends with one brother and enemies with the other. It sets up a nice conflict to visit down the road and gives him more real history and background.

I was also pleased to see that Landry and Lam have found their footing for their characters in this episode, especially Lam who finally projected an image of Carolyn Lam that didn't have any traces of the 'Rommie redux 'that so much of her last few appearances had. Carolyn finally came across as a unique and different person. Very well done on Lexa Doig's part.

I really liked Daniel's concern for Dr. Lee. I think a real friendship has formed between the two men and I can imagine them spending time in the mess hall talking over cups of coffee. Going off on this or that tangent about some ancient artifact or device.

Tony Todd was awesome in this. Frankly IMHO I think he would have made a much more imposing and convincing Gerak than Louis Gosset jr is. Was it my imagination or did William B Davis have no lines whatsoever?


The only thing that bothered me was the opening battle sequence felt a bit forced and contrived. It's like the writers had this great storyline for Mitchell, they just didn't quite know how to get him into the situation they wanted him in. Ok well there is one other thing that bothers me..or rather irritates me for some reason. Sam calling him Cameron. I know they are equal rank and that makes it ok, but it just sounds wrong or off to me for some reason. Funny that Mitchell calling Daniel 'Jackson' doesn't bother me, but Sam calling Mitchell 'Cameron' does.


Overall very good episode. Nice Mitchell showcase.
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SimilarCadence
September 10th, 2005, 11:43 AM
The person that played Lord Haidon was Tony Todd, (it's almost like Lord Rayden from Mortal Kombat).......

Also let me augment my previous post by saying that, when Mitchell was using "Bones" it was almost like their trying to make him into another O'Neill--
Phasers, We can't call it Enterprise?
Tony Todd also played Kurn, Worf's brother on ST:TNG......another Star Trek connection.

GateAngel
September 10th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Okay, one thing that's been bothering me about this episode...

If the Sodan exist, why didn't they try to contact them while the gu'ald were a threat? And furthermore, if the Jaffa know about a rebel group of Jaffa that successfully defied the gu'ald, why did they EVER think the gu'ald were all-seeing and impossible to defeat?

A lot of things the Jaffa can do and know seem to contradict other things the Jaffa do. If Bra'tac was able to know that Teal'c was still brainwashed just by grabbing his arm, why didn't he know that guy in Lost City was working for the other side? Stargate needs to work on these little contradictions, they didn't relaly start showing up this blatantly till season seven or so.

.

You mean like in one episode the Tok'ra are only a myth that the Jaffa are not allowed to speak of and then they become this huge resistance group that has infiltrated the Goa'uld?

And what's with Teal'c calling the wounded Jaffa 'the host' when he is talking about the symbiote dying. Teal'c of all people should know the Jaffa are not the hosts.

GateAngel
September 10th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Tony Todd played Cecrops and King Gilgamesh on Hercules, and also played a guest role on Xena, in "The Lost Mariner."

He also played a love interest for Lexa Doig's character Rommie on Andromeda in the season after Rommie threw former love Gabriel/Remiel (played by Lexa's husband Michael Shanks) out an airlock.

lord-anubis
September 10th, 2005, 12:19 PM
this looks like this is going to be other one of thous eps that a lot of people like and and lot of people don;t like. was i the only one who liked the set they use i thought it was really cool

acce
September 10th, 2005, 12:19 PM
I watched this episode, I've seen, worst and i've seen beter!
As a few people have said: I really thought I was Watching a ''The Last Samurai'' Version of SG1.
In TLS: Nathan Algreen, fight the Japaneses and barely survive the attack, he is brought back to the camp, healed, and he learn to know them freely in the villages and finally make friends.....
In SGI Babylon: Mitchell, fight to death with a Sodan, barely survive, the sodan bring him to the village, heal him, he his free to walk around, but a few gards are watching him.... fight and makes a friend....
The culture of the sodan looked like the ''the last samurai'' japaneses!

I think that the producers should hire better Writers! Writers how know how to Imagin a story that haven't been told yet....

And I have to say that Mitchell is not enough serious for a Leading Colonel of the best SG unit....

Season 9 , as i have already said, is really not getting better...Too much character left.... The soul of SG1 is not the same, and I have to admit, i don't really like it....

I Hope that they will stop to season 9, because it getting a real joke....
I doubt, i'll buy season 9 in DVD, i'll stop to season 8...

AGateFan
September 10th, 2005, 12:20 PM
this looks like this is going to be other one of thous eps that a lot of people like and and lot of people don;t like. was i the only one who liked the set they use i thought it was really cool
The set was awesome. The guest stars were quite good and the extras (kids and others) were all pretty cool too.

golfbooy
September 10th, 2005, 12:36 PM
Babylon. Hmm.

Well, any episode that focused on Mitchell was sorely needed. That said, I'm getting that Jonas vibe all over again. What I mean is, I'm afraid that no matter how hard Ben Browder tries, no matter how much humor and banter they write for him, Mitchell is never gonna fit (either with the show or the team) the way Sam, Daniel, and Teal'c do. Sure, this episode focused on Mitchell, but it also focused on his separation from them. And the result was uncomfortable.

To begin, the teaser where Mitchell is captured seems only to illustrate the unsettled nature of the team. There is a forced nature to his joking with Teal'c and an unseemly petulence to his ribbing of the Jaffa intel. Add Daniel's comment about how they've discovered some pretty incredible stuff in similar circumstances and Carter's disdainful look as she walks past Cam, and Mitchell's mocking of that which he so wanted to join (not lead) is curious. Then there's the whole fire-fight bit, with Mitchell getting captured. It's not at all clear who is in command before this event, but during it Carter certainly does what you'd expect the team leader to do. Namely, she calls for back up and secures the team's position. Mitchell covering for the rest of SG-1 was a plot convenience, as there was no reason for him to not fall back with the rest. Whatever, that's how stories are made and he needed to be alone in this one.

The following scene, featuring the discovery of the teleportation device and SG-1's only time together in the whole episode, illustrates the comfort that was missing in the teaser. Sam's running the search, Daniel's translating Ancient writing, and Teal'c's commenting on the Sodan's disappearance is so seemless that you can't help but feel that the scene is over way too soon. It's SG-1 doing what they've always done, and I wanted more. Alas, twas not to be. Further, the search for Cam (or lack thereof) came across as par for the course. I didn't get any sense of desperation or even concern out of Daniel, Teal'c, or Sam beyond ordinary compassion for a fellow soldier. Certainly in the past there has been greater urgency expressed in similar circumstances. Throw in the lack of any sort of team reunion at the end of the episode and Mitchell is apparently just one of the team to them, nothing more.

That said, Mitchell finally gets something of his own this week. I did enjoy the more assertive effort from Ben Browder, finally giving Cameron some definition and personality. And finally something has happened to the character, something that makes his appearance in the story germaine.

Teal'c and Daniel got some pedestrian interrogation and Jaffa dialog, but not much more. Their dealings with Volnek came across as so routine that even they were bored by them.

Undoubtedly a result of Amanda Tapping's pregnancy, any complaint about Carter's lack of presence in the episode is invalid. She's great when she's there, but her absence only feeds into the lack of concern for Cam.

Landry and Lam continue to tapdance around their inevitable reconciliation. And the drop-in about the International Oversight Committee is nice continuity, foreshadowing next week's troubles.

In the end, I appreciate the effort from all parties. The Sodan have been introduced with the completeness Stargate used so effectively in its earlier years. They are a fully fleshed out society, one that will undoubtedly return in multiple future episodes. And the production department deserves special mention for constructing such an elaborate locale for the Sodan. Gone are the few tents and draped pieces of cloth from the Emancipation days. Sure, that was a long time ago, but it's still nice to see SG-1 get (and use) the budget it deserves. Kudos on William B. Davis. His utterence of not a single line coupled with his decrepit appearance will make future action on his part all the more impressive. But I can't help but come away feeling that Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c are SG-1. Mitchell's just the guy walking around with them. All I'm saying is, I'm getting that Jonas vibe all over again.

Bring on Prototype and The Fourth Horseman.

jyh
September 10th, 2005, 12:43 PM
IMO the writers have made Mitchell way too flippant and sarcastic. O'Neill had the sarcasm down pat and only used it when it was called for, to good effect. Mitchell on the other hand seems to try and make a joke about everything, and most of the time just falls flat :|



See, I feel just the opposite. I think O'Neill used his sarcasm way too often--kinda diluted its effectiveness, for me. (Sorta like Hawkeye Pierce, on M*A*S*H... he snarked so often it just got to be annoying and distracting.) Plus I think O'Neill was too free w/ his snark, including being snarky w/ General Hammond. I know they both liked & respected each other, but it gave the impression Air Force personnel can speak to their superiors like that any time they like, which of course isn't true.

Also, I had previously question Carter calling to him on the radio as "Cameron," and someone pointed out that Carter & Mitchell are the same rank. That's true, and I know they've interacted enough that they probably feel comfortable enough referring to each other by first name, so I acknowledge a "point well-taken" on that issue. Thanks to the poster who brought it up.

binkpmmc
September 10th, 2005, 12:45 PM
This episode was so terrible it made episodes from season 7-8 look good!!!

Funny one - gave me a good chuckle.

I have to say that I have not read all of the posts here so apologies in advance if I repeat something but I have only a few minutes and want to get some thoughts down:

taped it as I was out - watched it last night. Sorry but boring does not describe what I felt. I would leave the room and forget the show was on, go back in see it on the screen, rewind to see what I missed and then full forward through the very same thing I had just missed making me realize I really did not miss anything. (I can say with pride that I only ended up wasting a grand total of about 15-20 minutes watching and full forwarding this as I managed to accomplish quite a few things while I was out of the room.)

Mitchell: what is he doing part of THIS SG1 team? He does not cut it for me and I can gather no interest in or, care about, the character. I tell you if I was Teal'c I would have slapped him one while they were in the forest looking for the Sodan. When Mitchell got caught-out I thought -- good for the Sodan -- try to show up Teal'c and crack on him like that and see what you get. Next time Mitchell better keep his smart-mouth shut and listen. Goodness gracious, where is Jack O'Neill when you need a good, solid, soldier that respects his teammates and knows and understands that they know way more than you do when it comes to certain things . . . . That whole scene just made me cringe, then it made me mad, then it made me once again think and ask again for some reminder as to why Mitchell is here (besides hero worship) and what, if anything, he brings to the team that they did not already have when it was Sam, Daniel and Teal'c.

The scene where the shooting started - another one where I ask myself why, regarding Mitchell, what the heck IS his purpose? Really, I mean no offense to BB, but Mitchell is horrible, IMO. He is benign, he is bland, he has nothing to offer that makes me want to learn or know more, or care, he insults his teammates, IMO, gets a smart mouth about it and then gets himself captured - uuuggghhhh!

What is the story with Mitchell always in peril - it is not lending any credence to the argument that he should be on THIS SG1. Do TPTB honestly think that I will have any buy-in that this guy is really going to be killed or horribly hurt (bben there done that anyway) -- please -- his being in peril, or sick, or hurt is meaningless due to the fact there is absolutely no suspense in it and absolutely no doubt that nothing bad will happen to him. I cannot get invested in this guy. (At this point with all of the talk about vala possibly coming on for S10 and whether AT will come back or not I would believe it more if they put Carter in peril that she might not make it back but Mitchell - no way, ergo, who cares.) First, there has been so little development to Micthell I have absolutely nothing invested in the character to care and second we all know nothing WILL happen to him, for me there's no investement in the character in peril either way. I will say that BB does hurt and peril pretty well though, but I do not buy him as a soldier.

As for command, the whole begininning scene just reinforced for me that he does not belong on THIS SG1 never mind in command of it, if he even is. Carter is by far a superior officer, leader, soldier from what I have seen of Mitchell.

Lam - again, sorry cannot get invested in her - she is a brat and she is unprofessional. I cannot believe that at a military institution they would portray the CMO, if that is what she is, in such an unprofessional manner, regardless of whether she is a civilian or not. The little snotty scene with Landry (which IMO, was a waste because all it provided was a sense that these two do not get along, which we already knew, so TPTB have their plot device for whatever personal crap they are planning between them) just goes to prove to me that the regs are there for a reason, the fact that he is her father does NOT make it approrpiate for her to speak to him in such a manner on base, where he is in fact in command, about an alien warrior whose race has captured one of the SGC soldiers -- that scene, IMO, belittled what was going on around them. I say to Dr. Lam "grow up and stop making this about you". I find it incredible that TPTB have seen their way clear to *******ize the CMO position now too. I cannot believe that the AF oversight would let this occur but then again the show has really gone downhill and away from being anywhere near believable as it was in past years when it comes to the AF persona in general, just as long as they get their silly plot devices in. That Lam/Landry scene was ridiculous and she should have been reprimanded, instead Landry just looked cowed.

Next, what a waste of the CSM from X-Files I love this guy, he can be such an evil genius -- I hope if they have him around again they do something with him. In one of his posts on the AJM thread JMallozzi said something about cast and guest stars being expensive, well what a waste of money that turned out to be, even if it is a set-up for something this guy will do in the future it was a waste of time and money - give the guy something, anything, to do for crying out loud!

Wow - I just read this back and it seems I really hated this ep - I thought I just disliked it - too bad. Once again the show's premise had potential - it did not workout IMO. Many of you will say why do you still watch; well a few things - I do not watch regularly anymore, skipped 3 of the first 5 altogether and had to turn off the other 2 from disgust. Watched the past 3 but haven't been able to get invested - taped 2 of them since I was out and full forwarded through much of those as well. In past years I would have made an effort to be home. If I was out I would tape and never miss an ep, and I never full forwarded through, or skipped, entire episodes, not until the middle of S7 when, IMO, the show started it's downhill run and since then it is just picking up speed and has now careened out of control as it nears the bottom. I have 1-6 on DVD, won't spend another dime on 7, 8 or 9. I am moving away from this show since I do feel it has lost quality, stature, respect, etc. It is now spoken about as more of a joke, and too many of the reviews yak about the humour and how funny it is, etc. Well I always thought Stargate SG1 was a drama - and it used to be. It was well written, full of suspense, action, friendship, bonding, humour when appropriate, wonderful secondary characters that had wonderful relationships with the 4 main characters and, above all, it was a team where the members all complimented one another with the qualities they brought to the team - now it is a rag tag group that I don't recognize and get no team feeling from, it is a comedy wannabe, a caricature of it's former self (visions of that movie Space Balls dance in my head when I think of Stargate now).

I watch now when I can or when it at least sounds like it might be a decent episode that won't be a waste of my time to see IF TPTB can bring back the magic - so far the answer, for me, is no. Another big difference, before S7 the eps all sounded great and you could not wait to watch, now it's gee it sounds like it could be okay maybe it won't be a waste of my time and when it is not a waste of time it garners an okay or it was decent). Believe it or not, I still do have a shred of hope that they will recapture the real SG1 and go back to the "roots" of the show. Roots, ha, some of TPTB have used that term rather loosely in their interviews this year, I see no "roots" just "root-rot". Bows head in disappointment that this is yet another ep that failed to recapture the essence of SG1 . . . and wonders how many more will grab me with the "maybe it won't be a waste of my time" thought.

flynn1959
September 10th, 2005, 01:05 PM
I must say I found this one boring, not as bad as last weeks but still flat .
Mitchell just doesn't cut it,I hated the silly speeded up fight scenes and the switch between the actors and the stunt men was very badly done.
I want more team interaction not Mitchell on one planet, Carter on another and Teal's and Daniel on Earth.
Let Mitchell interact with the rest of SG1 and he might just grow on people.

Jwizzman
September 10th, 2005, 01:06 PM
this was a pretty bad episode, I did like the michel-movie-joke but still...pretty bad ep imo

AGateFan
September 10th, 2005, 01:12 PM
I must say I found this one boring, not as bad as last weeks but still flat .
Mitchell just doesn't cut it,I hated the silly speeded up fight scenes and the switch between the actors and the stunt men was very badly done.
I want more team interaction not Mitchell on one planet, Carter on another and Teal's and Daniel on Earth.
Let Mitchell interact with the rest of SG1 and he might just grow on people.
I agree on the fight scene, it was disappointing especially when you know they can do so much better (The Warrior).

And I agree on separating the team. Are they ever going to have an actual episode with the entire team working together? At this point I'm thinking not. Maybe tptb are afraid that it would be apparent that Sam is the more qualified leader (until tptb write the story to make Sam look bad just so Mitchell. looks better, that is). <<< this is a double dog dare, I dare the writers to write an actual team ep where no team member is made to look bad just so Mitchell can fit in. BBs a good actor why not have a little trust in him and just make the fricken ep....or have they just lost the ability to write normal explore or meet and greet eps?

ParadoxRealities
September 10th, 2005, 01:29 PM
God, that was a horrible episode. I can understand wanting to give Mitchell and ep of his own but come on how much worse can you get?

Did anyone else find it odd that he could fight so hard so son after after being shot, but the cut on his face wasn't even healed by the end of the ep?

They definitely need a new choreographer, too! The fighting in Atlantis’s Conversion right after it was so much better! Anyone else notice the ‘bedside manner’ thing?

I WANT MY TEAM BACK!!
Sam+Daniel+Jack+Teal'c=SG-1 THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT!!

LaCroix
September 10th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Snip

And I agree on separating the team. Are they ever going to have an actual episode with the entire team working together? At this point I'm thinking not. Maybe tptb are afraid that it would be apparent that Sam is the more qualified leader (until tptb write the story to make Sam look bad just so Mitchell. looks better, that is). Snip


The one thing that TPTB can not have is an eppy that makes Sam leadership
material, because they have so much invested in BB. If fans actually belive that Sam is better(AT), then all that money for Mitchell (BB) will have gone to waste.


ETA--Please don't get me wrong I really like the character and the actor (AT and SC).

morjana
September 10th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Also, did I hear right, and Sam used her walkie-talkie thing and called "Cameron"??? Talk about a breach in military protocol. She shouldn't even call him "Mitchell," but instead either Colonel or Sir.

As Sam and MItchell are the same rank, she's allowed to use his first name.

Just as Col. Reynold's was allowed to use O'Neill's first name when addressing him.

Morjana

morjana
September 10th, 2005, 01:55 PM
Is Carter supposed to call Mitchell "Cameron?"


Both Mitchell and Carter are the same rank -- Lt. Colonel's -- so Carter is allowed to use Mitchell's first name.

Morjana

Quinn Mallory
September 10th, 2005, 02:24 PM
Both Mitchell and Carter are the same rank -- Lt. Colonel's -- so Carter is allowed to use Mitchell's first name.

Morjana

Even if that was the case, it is seemed a bit odd for Sam to do so.

Quinn Mallory
September 10th, 2005, 02:29 PM
Judging by the few reviews that I scanned, I might be in the minority for saying that I enjoyed the episode. It was nothing spectacular and depending what they do with these Sodom (sp?) warriors, it is probably the most forgettable episode so far this season; however, we did get to see more of Mitchell this episode and allowed his character to grow on us.

The lack of team interaction was ok for me, but they do need to start to act like a team soon (and aren't supposed to get this team off world stuff this season?). The most compelling aspect of this episode was the continuation of the Ori storyline.

binkpmmc
September 10th, 2005, 03:03 PM
and Mitchell is allowed to use Carter's first name.

Samuel J. Tilden
September 10th, 2005, 03:06 PM
depending what they do with these Sodom (sp?) warriors
Sodom warriors? Um…

Anyway, am I the only one who has trouble telling the difference between Col. Mitchell and Col. Sheppard? I could swear that they're the same guy.

AGateFan
September 10th, 2005, 03:18 PM
Snip

The one thing that TPTB can not have is an eppy that makes Sam leadership
material, because they have so much invested in BB. If fans actually belive that Sam is better(AT), then all that money for Mitchell (BB) will have gone to waste.


ETA--Please don't get me wrong I really like the character and the actor (AT and SC).

I am not asking TPTB to write an ep that makes Sam leadership material. What I am saying is from what I see, right now, on the screen Sam is already more leadership material then Mitchell

I think this bothers TPTB and they don’t know how to counter this so they are purposefully keeping the team separated. Obviously you can’t really keep this up on a team show (or can you?).

I am afraid that if they do write a team ep they will do so in such a way as to purposefully marginalize Carter (and\or the rest of the team) just to make Mitchell look better. I am asking TPTB that they have faith in BB and the character they created and just write a stinking team ep that doesn’t marginalize ANY of the characters…. That’s all I’m saying.

Redwall
September 10th, 2005, 03:19 PM
Even if that was the case, it is seemed a bit odd for Sam to do so.

Not really, given their interaction in Avalon -- she addressed him as "Cameron" then, too. Presumably she's kept in contact with him since Lost City (in all her spare time :rolleyes: ).

AGateFan
September 10th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Sodom warriors? Um…

Anyway, am I the only one who has trouble telling the difference between Col. Mitchell and Col. Sheppard? I could swear that they're the same guy.
Not even close. Mitchell is super duper professional Military... at least when his boss is around. Sheppard is pretty much anti military especially when his boss is around.

But then again when Mitchells boss is not around he does seem to lose some of his super militaryness. He looked pretty unprofessional wearing the hat backwards, chewing gum and talking up a storm while the rest of his team was concentrating on the recon mission they were on. Plus he appearently needs some weapons training.

Sheppard is always out of uniform because he doesn't wear his "cover" (hat) when outside but at least he knows to concentrate on missions and how to shoot. Cant salute for crp though.

Maybe they both wear Aqua Velva... thats up the air at this point.

MediaSavant
September 10th, 2005, 03:56 PM
I am a lurker here and love reading all of the varied responses to Babylon. I also have to admit my prejudice: I come from Farscape fandom and am not as immersed in the Stargate universe (although I have seen many episodes). I find it fascinating that people are concentrating on comparing Mitchell to O'Neill in terms of Mitchell's competance to lead. I think what Ben Browder and the writers are building is a character of another stripe than O'Neill's cynicism and snark (that I agree is always used as a leadership tool).

The character analysis you wrote after this was excellent. I agree with it.

SGalisa
September 10th, 2005, 04:17 PM
gosh, just skimmed thru a few comments of this topic - picky commentaries...! :eek:
It's like reading most of SG-1, Season 8 all over again, which spoiled me before actually seeing the eps to no end... too many preconceptions formed, and - bad idea doing that. Trying to avoid doing that for the duration of future eps... won't be easy, tho.

I tend to like Stargate (both series!) ...be them good or not so great eps. Each one has its own set of pros and cons. :p
========

re: Babylon ...just some random thoughts...

Cameron - he *did* listen to his grandma afterall. ;)
...but won't the Ori get mad, since they did heal him? (they made him deathly ill in a previous ep, then *saved* him to prove their point)

It would have been interesting to see the reaction on both brothers involved in this story:
- the one for discovering his brother is alive;
- the other for learning of his brother's skepticism re: the Ori.

In the beginning scene, caught Teal'c's roll of the eyes - at Mitchell's imitation of Teal'c's speech, etc... :D

Mr. Seven
September 10th, 2005, 04:38 PM
"Now that's what I'm talking about!"

Cameron Mitchell is now a true character. Not just Ben Browder on Stargate anymore.

In this episode he brought Cameron Mitchell to life and to tell you the truth this is one of my favorite SG1 eps now.

But to the powers that be: You have to stop dressing Browder and Shanks in the same gear. During the start of the episode I didn't know who was who. Put one of them in a backwards hat or something.

SyFyFantasy
September 10th, 2005, 04:42 PM
I like Stargate, I always have. I like Ben Browder. He's got a tough row to hoe, so I'm being very patient with him. He deserves it. I think this ep. (Babylon) was inspired by "The Last Samauri". Fine. I'm OK with that. Stargate has borrowed storylines before and always put their own flare into it with finesse. However, this time...
One of the things I always liked about Stargate was the military 'presence' in all the episodes. No matter how 'out there' they went (with a story), they always stayed in keeping with their military protocols, respect for General Hammond, and so forth. O'Neill would bend a rule, break a rule, but he ALWAYS respected General Hammond no matter what. That being said...
Last night when I watched it, I noticed Dr. Lam (Lexa Doig) kept in a sitting position when General Landry walked in and began speaking with her. Then, she rolled her eyes at him (still sitting) and was sarcastic when she asked, "why? do you want to 'interrogate' him"? And rolled her eyes at him again!!
Somehow, I don't see Janet Frasier EVER disrespecting General Hammond the way I saw Dr. Lam disrespect General Landry. Can you see Janet Frasier rolling her eyes at General Hammond while spouting off scarcasm to him?? I have a DVR, I played it back to make sure I was seeing it correctly.

I was very disappointed to see this. I guess, while cutting opening credits to sell more ad time, the sci-fi channel cut the budget further by not having a military advisor anymore. If there was a military advisor close by, he was either asleep or on break. :(

Except for the disrespectful scene, I thought this episode was good. I enjoyed it except for that one scene.

not so ancient
September 10th, 2005, 05:02 PM
Stargatecaps.com is down do to server/bandwidth issues. In fact, they're asking for Paypal donations. :(

But if anyone has a screencap of Wm. B Davis - the Ori Prior from last night, I would be most, most grateful if you'd send it to me by private message.

I do appreciate your help. ;)

ThomasDM
September 10th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Last night when I watched it, I noticed Dr. Lam (Lexa Doig) kept in a sitting position when General Landry walked in and began speaking with her. Then, she rolled her eyes at him (still sitting) and was sarcastic when she asked, "why? do you want to 'interrogate' him"? And rolled her eyes at him again!!
Indeed it was pretty strange but I believe she's his daughter. I'm not sure what happened but based on a previous episode I think Dr. Lam's parents are divorced and seemingly she is somewhat angry on her dad. Maybe that has something to do with it.



This episode wasn't bad but I expected more from it. I hope we'll see a bit more teamwork in the following episodes. Somehow this episode gave me the idea that the original four (Sam, Jack, Daniel, Teal'c) in combination with General Hammond is a lot better than all these new characters. I liked them at the beginning but this feeling is fading away.

scifi woman
September 10th, 2005, 06:00 PM
"Now that's what I'm talking about!"

Cameron Mitchell is now a true character. Not just Ben Browder on Stargate anymore.

In this episode he brought Cameron Mitchell to life and to tell you the truth this is one of my favorite SG1 eps now.

But to the powers that be: You have to stop dressing Browder and Shanks in the same gear. During the start of the episode I didn't know who was who. Put one of them in a backwards hat or something.

I totally agree! Ben has created a character so far removed from his Crichton character in Farscape. He has defined Cameron Mitchell into a very interesting and likeable member of the SG-1 world.

And, I really liked this episode. Mitchell's interaction with the brother was very compelling. Even though he was considered the enemy, he won him over.

Thank you to TPTB for giving Ben this episode to really show his talents. He's an incredibly talented actor. And I had read in a blog at Sci-Fi website that he even did all his own stunts. I'll still trying to figure out what is a Hong-Kong Twist. Any insights on exactly what move it was???

I found this Sodan storyline very interesting -- I loved the 2 brothers and Tony's character as well. I hope to see more of the Sodan. And more of Ben!

As to dressing Ben and Daniel too much alike -- I'd love to see them in more leather :D

Agent_Dark
September 10th, 2005, 06:35 PM
I
Last night when I watched it, I noticed Dr. Lam (Lexa Doig) kept in a sitting position when General Landry walked in and began speaking with her. Then, she rolled her eyes at him (still sitting) and was sarcastic when she asked, "why? do you want to 'interrogate' him"? And rolled her eyes at him again!!
Somehow, I don't see Janet Frasier EVER disrespecting General Hammond the way I saw Dr. Lam disrespect General Landry. Can you see Janet Frasier rolling her eyes at General Hammond while spouting off scarcasm to him?? I have a DVR, I played it back to make sure I was seeing it correctly.

I was very disappointed to see this.
Ummm, Dr. Lam is not Air Force, she's a civilian. So she's not exactly bound by military protocol like Fraiser was (she was an Air Force Officer). Add to the fact that Lam is Landry's daughter - I didn't really have a problem with that. And they still did have proper military protocol in that scene, the SF's in the background jump to attention when Landry walks past them.

Taonas
September 10th, 2005, 06:43 PM
Somehow, I don't see Janet Frasier EVER disrespecting General Hammond the way I saw Dr. Lam disrespect General Landry. Can you see Janet Frasier rolling her eyes at General Hammond while spouting off scarcasm to him?? I have a DVR, I played it back to make sure I was seeing it correctly.

Two things:
1. Dr.Lam is the general's daughter and she seems angry at him for some reason yet to be revealed.
2. She is a civilian, as in does not have to respond to military procedure. Much like Dr.Mckay in Atlantis.

EDIT: Agent Dark said this before I did, didn't notice. Sorry about that x.x

AGateFan
September 10th, 2005, 06:44 PM
I would prefer to see Lam act more professionally. If she can't then she should leave.

To me it looks like a lot of the discipline has left the SGC. First you let an admitted thief (who defeated the entire crew of one of your ships BTW :rolleyes: ) wander around with merely one guard. Now you have the CMO giving attitude to the base commander for wanting to interrogate a prisoner :rolleyes: . Imagine that a military guy that actually wants to interrogate his prisoner, damn him the bstrd. Lams righteous indignation is already old before it's even started. Seriously it’s a fricken military base. The military interrogate prisoners that should not be a surprise. Hey Lam the military also kills the enemy, are you going to complain about that too?

As someone above said, this situation is proof why the regulations exist. Lam would never get away with acting that way if she was not related to Landry.

not so ancient
September 10th, 2005, 06:50 PM
I obviously have too much time on my hands.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/kimonthejourney/iconage/cigarettesmokingpriorbykim.jpg



Screencap courtesy of ThomasDM. Thank you!

the fifth man
September 10th, 2005, 06:53 PM
I think tptb plan to develop a relationship between Lam and her dad, Landry. What we are seeing is just how screwed up their relationship is currently. If the show continues on like I know I want it to, I'm sure we'll see things change between the two of them. Nothing brings people together like danger, and that is what is on the way.

tsaxlady
September 10th, 2005, 07:09 PM
Okay Babylon will not be on my top ten list of all time favorite episodes. But it is also not in the bottom ten either.

We did finally get to see Mitchell do something. Yes I agree with many of the earlier posts he does need to learn how to hold a gun.

Other than focusing on Mitchell it was a set-up episode. So we will see the Sodan again.

Would have liked to see more of the team together interacting.

All in all not the best episode this season but not the worst either.

scifiannie
September 10th, 2005, 08:04 PM
I am a lurker here and love reading all of the varied responses to Babylon. I also have to admit my prejudice: I come from Farscape fandom and am not as immersed in the Stargate universe (although I have seen many episodes). I find it fascinating that people are concentrating on comparing Mitchell to O'Neill in terms of Mitchell's competance to lead. I think what Ben Browder and the writers are building is a character of another stripe than O'Neill's cynicism and snark (that I agree is always used as a leadership tool). Someone earlier said that Mitchell is unsure of himself and covers his insecurity and maybe fear by being a wise ass. I like the fact that the man is not perfect and that he is awkward still. Yes, he is supposed to be the Leader of SG-1 and that he was chosen by O'Neill and Landry because he had leadership qualities. I think we are seeing that his qualities are not tactical or strategic (which are more Teal'c and Sam's skills) but people oriented. The man is great with people. He disarms with charm and grace.

Ben is building a layered performance based on his physicality and slightly goofy/gawky persona. And yet, he stood there in front of Haikon like a soldier and did not bend. He does have The Right Stuff and can hold his own. I also think the man is very intelligent and deep. Look at his arguments to the Sodan about freedom and not loosing faith because it is what sustains you when times are hard. Haikon needs to SEE to believe. The other Sodan (based on that brother who ended up at SGC) also seem to be very grounded. Mitchell is a believer in himself and fate as well as a higher power. He sold that well. So he uses his sarcasm to disarm and relax people vs. O'Neill using it to push hard on people.

This was a high quality episode that really gave Ben some physical acting, something he is amazingly good at. The fact that the ep was self-referential is charming to me. Most of Stargate is very boring (sorry guys) because it doesn't deal in deep characterizations (at least in its later years). Everything is usually tied up in an nice ribbon at the end of the ep. This ep left things untied and awkward. Look at Mitchell's face at the end of the ep. It is saying "We're so screwed."

I give this ep an A because it moved me, was exciting, and sexy as all get out.

What you said, 100%. Thanks for articulating it perfectly.

AsgardCarnage
September 10th, 2005, 08:56 PM
Not their best ep, but i guess if u look at it purelly as build up and an atempt to give more depth to mitchell then it was to bad.

i thought mitchell was good and i'm starting to enjoy his charictor. i havn't read any spoilers but as soon as i saw the smoking guy i knew this was a set up ep. with all the talk of tradtion and the sodan originally being the elite gaurd the best of the best jaffa. their arc can go one of 2 ways. either they join the jaffa and bring some order to their population (which i hope it isn't at least not yet) or (what i hope it is) they will follow the ori and become their elite gaurd. with their strong ethic and apparent great skill together with some ori technology they will hopfully be a great force to be reckoned with.

Sodan ori elite gaurds will add someone the free worlds to fight against. they can't do anything to the priors and the ori's people seem to be along way a way, also not trained at all. when we start seening prior/ori bases being established in the MW i think SG1 will feel more like SG1 with ground battles and situations where a small team is needed to infiltrate a base working together.


my main problems with this ep.
who didn't see that guy training him to be the kin a mile away??
last samuri anyone?
that was the worst interigation i have ever seen. and i dont know why Dr lam didn't want them to interogate him they didn't do anything.

Hybridbabe
September 10th, 2005, 09:12 PM
It seems to be that people don't get Lam just yet. To me, her snarkiness was perfectly in character.

Think about it: she's Landry's daughter, and some how or another, her mother and her father had a falling out because Daddy was more concerned with his job than his family. He literally made the choice of putting his occupation before his private life, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason why him and his wife divorced.

And from what i can understand and what I can see in their relationship, Lam doesn't like her father for leaving them. that dislike has grown into resentment, and from how awkward they were in TPTB, I would guess that before this gig, before Jack appointed her at the SGC, her and her father haven't spoken for many many years.

They're both pretty stiff, and she's still carrying a bit of a grudge. She's trying to show him that, hey, he left! He wanted his job, not his family! And only NOW he's trying to get back to the family thing?

She's a grown woman. She could possibly be married (taking Lam as a husband's last name. If she's not, then maybe she took her mother's name instead of her father's, as a sign of trying to cut him out of her life like he cut them out), she's the Chief Medical Officer of the SGC, she's got a personal life..... but it doesn't include him. In her mind, he's trying to start up the family feeling when it's already too late: she no longer considers him as her father in any way but biologically.

esoap524
September 10th, 2005, 09:13 PM
Two things:
1. Dr.Lam is the general's daughter and she seems angry at him for some reason yet to be revealed.
2. She is a civilian, as in does not have to respond to military procedure. Much like Dr.Mckay in Atlantis.

EDIT: Agent Dark said this before I did, didn't notice. Sorry about that x.x


Forget military protocol--she's acting like a spoiled 10 year old. Hardly professional behavior, civilian or military.

macktheknife
September 10th, 2005, 09:22 PM
Reminded me of the Matrix mixed with Battle Realms. BR was a great game, with a great atmosphere, and this was quite similar.

Not much happened, and if we never hear from the Sodan again, then it'll be almost a waste of an episode.

Although it would have been nice for the Sodan brother guy who had to fight him (gee, what a surpise, I really did'nt see that coming :rolleyes: ) to give the SGC some of the invisible thingos.

majorsal
September 10th, 2005, 09:23 PM
I

This was a high quality episode that really gave Ben some physical acting, something he is amazingly good at. The fact that the ep was self-referential is charming to me. Most of Stargate is very boring (sorry guys) because it doesn't deal in deep characterizations (at least in its later years). Everything is usually tied up in an nice ribbon at the end of the ep. This ep left things untied and awkward. Look at Mitchell's face at the end of the ep. It is saying "We're so screwed."

I give this ep an A because it moved me, was exciting, and sexy as all get out.

i read others views on this ep before i got to see it for myself, so i went into it expecting to be bored. i was anything but! i thought it was well written and performed.

i'd been very tired of how much screen time had been given to daniel and vala (separately and together) in the first five/six eps, so i was jazzed about finally getting the chance to know mitchell without them distracting. and even though i didn't get much of my fave character (sam! :D), i 'did' get the chance to get to know mitchell. and i was *very* impressed with what i saw.

i think what might be bothering most of us, though, is that once again, there was no 'team' feeling to the show. i'll take some time to get adjusted to this new element to the team (mitchell instead of jack), but we really need the chance to cultivate a taste for them by showing them together 'as' a team. now, granted, maybe the ptb are slowly bringing us the team so we can love mitchell first and then this new team second, but... i'm not sure they've thought it through like this. i think the first five eps alienated fans who didn't enjoy the daniel-vala show, so i'm not sure about their thinking.


sally :)

AGateFan
September 10th, 2005, 09:27 PM
It seems to be that people don't get Lam just yet. To me, her snarkiness was perfectly in character.

Think about it: she's Landry's daughter, and some how or another, her mother and her father had a falling out because Daddy was more concerned with his job than his family. He literally made the choice of putting his occupation before his private life, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason why him and his wife divorced.

And from what i can understand and what I can see in their relationship, Lam doesn't like her father for leaving them. that dislike has grown into resentment, and from how awkward they were in TPTB, I would guess that before this gig, before Jack appointed her at the SGC, her and her father haven't spoken for many many years.

They're both pretty stiff, and she's still carrying a bit of a grudge. She's trying to show him that, hey, he left! He wanted his job, not his family! And only NOW he's trying to get back to the family thing?

She's a grown woman. She could possibly be married (taking Lam as a husband's last name. If she's not, then maybe she took her mother's name instead of her father's, as a sign of trying to cut him out of her life like he cut them out), she's the Chief Medical Officer of the SGC, she's got a personal life..... but it doesn't include him. In her mind, he's trying to start up the family feeling when it's already too late: she no longer considers him as her father in any way but biologically.

Oh I get Lam, I know exactly what Lam is about, I have a parent I dont talk to but unlike Lam I am smart enough not to work for that person. But Lam did accept her current job (shes a civi so shes free to "move on" whenever she wants).

She is the Cheif Medical Officer and he is her Boss. Her personal "feeling" are irrelavant in this situation. She has a job and if she can't do that job without giving her boss attitude then she shouldn't have that job. Thats exactly why the regulations exist. This is the kind of soap-opra garbage you get when you ignor the military regulations (the same ones that apply to civilian employees of the military).

Hybridbabe
September 10th, 2005, 09:31 PM
Oh I get Lam, I know exactly what Lam is about, I have a parent I dont talk to but unlike Lam I am smart enough not to work for that person. But Lam did accept her current job (shes a civi so shes free to "move on" whenever she wants).

She is the Cheif Medical Officer and he is her Boss. Her personal "feeling" are irrelavant in this situation. She has a job and if she can't do that job without giving her boss attitude then she shouldn't have that job. Thats exactly why the regulations exist. This is the kind of soap-opra garbage you get when you ignor the military regulations (the same ones that apply to civilian employees of the military).

To be honest, i don't think she knew Landry was going to be her boss. I know Jack hired her, but did he, during one of his "forgetful" moments that he's prone to have, forget to tell her?

To me, that's believable. He did it to Cam, neglecting to tell him that everybody on SG-1 was shoving off for separate adventures in Avalon Pt. 1!

esoap524
September 10th, 2005, 09:32 PM
I am not trying to be difficult or antagonistic by this question but can you please tell me why you think this - I am still struggling with what Mitchell brings to THIS SG1 that was not already there with Sam,Daniel and Teal'c and thus far TPTB will not answer, perhaps someone else can define it. What is Mitchel's purpose? Thanks.

Well, there are the people who are Browder fans and are just happy to see him in another role, and not necessarily a John Crichton re-tread. That's enough for them. I liked last night's episode but I'm partial to Browder. That being said, I wouldn't watch if I didn't think he was interesting and brought something to the show.

One thing I noticed, though, that I don't think has been mentioned is that Mitchell seems to have an alternative POV to the Ori question, from Daniel's. Daniel's argument is that people need to use a rational approach, using science and technology to improve their status. That's okay.

Mitchell, on the other hand, argues for a faith based approach. You don't need a bag of magic tricks to believe there is a god. I base that assessment on his discussion with the Sodan guy (can't remember his name) when he pointed out that a bag of magic tricks does not a god make, and that on his planet people have believed without seeing proof. That's okay too.

Daniel's approach is more humanistic whereas Mitchell's is more in the way of traditional Judeo-Christian religious values. I'm not saying that this is Mitchell's "purpose" but I, as a person of Judeo-Christian faith, saw Mitchell's take on the Ori as being different from Daniel's. They're both anti-Ori but they give different reasons why. And I liked this side of Mitchell.

I'm not a hard core SG1 fan so I can't speak to the show's history in leadership. I also have little to no interest in military procedure so I can't really address that either. What I liked about Mitchell as a character in last night's show was the way he tried to bridge the differences through dialogue, how he "accepted his fate" so to speak, yet didn't give up when he easily could have. He fought and trained knowing that he might still end up dead. He's perseverant.

Does SG1 "need" him? I don't know. As a viewer, do I relate to the character? Yes. He's still the outsider and maybe his ribbing Teal'c, which I didn't think was that intolerable, was his way of trying to fit into a team.

Maybe the problem isn't Mitchell, but the fact that the other characters aren't acting any differently. There's new blood on the team. That's a given, it happens in work places all the time. You get a new boss and maybe someone else on the team was more capable but passed on the job or was passed over. That's a possible opportunity for conflict, even if you like the guy. Or for guilt if something happens to the guy and you don't like him much. So why aren't we seeing more of that?

Perhaps Mitchell's purpose was to shake things up a bit, the way it happens whenever a new dynamic is introduced into an established environment. So how come no one has taken advantage of that?

AGateFan
September 10th, 2005, 09:32 PM
To be honest, i don't think she knew Landry was going to be his boss. I know Jack hired her, but did he, during one of his "forgetful" moments that he's prone to have, forget to tell her?

To me, that's believable. He did it to Cam, neglecting to tell him that everybody on SG-1 was shoving off for separate adventures in Avalon Pt. 1!
Unlike Cam, she is free to leave whenever she likes. If she is smart as shes supposed to be I'm sure she could find a job anywhere and work for someone she respects.

ForeverSg1
September 10th, 2005, 09:36 PM
I don't get it? Why are so many people having issues with Carter calling Mitchell by his first name? The way they have written Mitchell, he and Sam are of the same rank. Mitchell was temporarily given command of SG-1, but they have not really said who is really in charge thus far. Mitchell and Carter seem to have established a very friendly relationship since his injury in Lost City and Mitchell has called Carter 'Sam' in Avalon, Beachhead and EDM.

I am rather glad that Carter doesn't have to spend another year being the only person on the team to have to refer to someone as 'Sir'. I was getting rather tired of hearing 'sir' on off-world missions and while off-duty. It's actually quite refreshing to think that she and Mitchell are equals.

esoap524
September 10th, 2005, 09:38 PM
I am rather glad that Carter doesn't have to spend another year being the only person on the team to have to refer to someone as 'Sir'. I was getting rather tired of hearing 'sir' on off-world missions and while off-duty. It's actually quite refreshing to think that she and Mitchell are equals.

Amen!

Fargater
September 10th, 2005, 10:30 PM
While I may not be among the majority, I thought this was a pretty good episode. Mitchell finally really got involved, getting some serious action. I mean, come on, groundbreaking events aren't supposed to happen every damn week. Little things build upon each other to form something big. The introduction of the Sodan may be one of those "little things". Some of you I think are expecting way too much. And even if you got it, others would find something to complain about. This season is far from over, and I just hope by its end, all of us, well, most of us anyway (some can never be pleased), will have seen enough things we like.
I thought I was going to read this whole thread and then post my comments, but I keep going, "Yeah!" And "NO NO NO!" every other post.

I agree with you. This ep is setting up a lot of things that can happen in future. Someone mentioned further back that the one without the symbiote (sorry, forgot his name) should now need tretonin. I said the same thing elsewhere. Did they send him with a supply or will he need to get more? How often must he take it? And just the fact that he is alive without the symbiote will be eye-opening to the other Sodan (unless he tries to hide the fact that it`s missing). To finally have a way to be independent of the Goa`uld they hate yet need for symbiotes has to be worth a lot. Heck, I can already see a storyline with him needing more tretonin and (if he concealed the missing Junior issue) confiding in his brother, who already has the beginnings of a bond with Mitchell, and maybe they`ll try to contact SGC for tretonin. Maybe they`ll all want to lose Junior and get it, and there`s an alliance forming right there.

majorsal
September 10th, 2005, 10:40 PM
i havn't read any spoilers but as soon as i saw the smoking guy i knew this was a set up ep. with all the talk of tradtion and the sodan originally being the elite gaurd the best of the best jaffa. their arc can go one of 2 ways. either they join the jaffa and bring some order to their population (which i hope it isn't at least not yet) or (what i hope it is) they will follow the ori and become their elite gaurd. with their strong ethic and apparent great skill together with some ori technology they will hopfully be a great force to be reckoned with.

Sodan ori elite gaurds will add someone the free worlds to fight against. they can't do anything to the priors and the ori's people seem to be along way a way, also not trained at all. when we start seening prior/ori bases being established in the MW i think SG1 will feel more like SG1 with ground battles and situations where a small team is needed to infiltrate a base working together.




so i guess we're seeing the sodan as the solution to the free jaffa's probs? the sodan have lived free for a loooong time, so they should be perfect leaders/teachers to the new free jaffa. i hope this happens. ;)


sally :D

pittsburghgirl
September 10th, 2005, 10:41 PM
Not their best ep, but i guess if u look at it purelly as build up and an atempt to give more depth to mitchell then it was to bad.

i thought mitchell was good and i'm starting to enjoy his charictor. i havn't read any spoilers but as soon as i saw the smoking guy i knew this was a set up ep. with all the talk of tradtion and the sodan originally being the elite gaurd the best of the best jaffa. their arc can go one of 2 ways. either they join the jaffa and bring some order to their population (which i hope it isn't at least not yet) or (what i hope it is) they will follow the ori and become their elite gaurd. with their strong ethic and apparent great skill together with some ori technology they will hopfully be a great force to be reckoned with.

Sodan ori elite gaurds will add someone the free worlds to fight against. they can't do anything to the priors and the ori's people seem to be along way a way, also not trained at all. when we start seening prior/ori bases being established in the MW i think SG1 will feel more like SG1 with ground battles and situations where a small team is needed to infiltrate a base working together.


my main problems with this ep.
who didn't see that guy training him to be the kin a mile away??
last samuri anyone?
that was the worst interigation i have ever seen. and i dont know why Dr lam didn't want them to interogate him they didn't do anything.
as for Dr. Lam and her antagonistic attitude toward daddy-i actually was waiting for him to slap her. She is working in a military facility for the military-what did she expect them to do-offer him tea and crumpets?? I know that they are building up the inevitable confrontation between daddy and his little girl-but she ain't Janet-and not even Janet was that dense.

Fargater
September 10th, 2005, 10:41 PM
It seems to be that people don't get Lam just yet. To me, her snarkiness was perfectly in character.

Think about it: she's Landry's daughter, and some how or another, her mother and her father had a falling out because Daddy was more concerned with his job than his family. He literally made the choice of putting his occupation before his private life, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason why him and his wife divorced.

And from what i can understand and what I can see in their relationship, Lam doesn't like her father for leaving them. that dislike has grown into resentment, and from how awkward they were in TPTB, I would guess that before this gig, before Jack appointed her at the SGC, her and her father haven't spoken for many many years.

They're both pretty stiff, and she's still carrying a bit of a grudge. She's trying to show him that, hey, he left! He wanted his job, not his family! And only NOW he's trying to get back to the family thing?

She's a grown woman. She could possibly be married (taking Lam as a husband's last name. If she's not, then maybe she took her mother's name instead of her father's, as a sign of trying to cut him out of her life like he cut them out), she's the Chief Medical Officer of the SGC, she's got a personal life..... but it doesn't include him. In her mind, he's trying to start up the family feeling when it's already too late: she no longer considers him as her father in any way but biologically.
Yup, that`s exactly how I see her too.


EDIT: I just want to say though that I agree with the people who say she should expect Landry to want to interrogate the prisoner. I think her hangup was that she wants control regarding medical matters. She complained to Lee when Daniel and Vala were linked to that communication thingy because she thought he was proceeding without giving her a chance to make some medical decisions. With the Sodan she doesn`t like Landry getting ready to interrogate without her declaring him fit enough for it. And getting back to the personal issues between them, she`s extra ready to be snarky when he invades "her" territory (medical matters).

Fargater
September 10th, 2005, 10:44 PM
I obviously have too much time on my hands.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/kimonthejourney/iconage/cigarettesmokingpriorbykim.jpg



Screencap courtesy of ThomasDM. Thank you!
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

That`s great!

Fargater
September 10th, 2005, 11:43 PM
I am a lurker here and love reading all of the varied responses to Babylon. I also have to admit my prejudice: I come from Farscape fandom and am not as immersed in the Stargate universe (although I have seen many episodes). I find it fascinating that people are concentrating on comparing Mitchell to O'Neill in terms of Mitchell's competance to lead. I think what Ben Browder and the writers are building is a character of another stripe than O'Neill's cynicism and snark (that I agree is always used as a leadership tool). Someone earlier said that Mitchell is unsure of himself and covers his insecurity and maybe fear by being a wise ass. I like the fact that the man is not perfect and that he is awkward still. Yes, he is supposed to be the Leader of SG-1 and that he was chosen by O'Neill and Landry because he had leadership qualities. I think we are seeing that his qualities are not tactical or strategic (which are more Teal'c and Sam's skills) but people oriented. The man is great with people. He disarms with charm and grace.

Ben is building a layered performance based on his physicality and slightly goofy/gawky persona. And yet, he stood there in front of Haikon like a soldier and did not bend. He does have The Right Stuff and can hold his own. I also think the man is very intelligent and deep. Look at his arguments to the Sodan about freedom and not loosing faith because it is what sustains you when times are hard. Haikon needs to SEE to believe. The other Sodan (based on that brother who ended up at SGC) also seem to be very grounded. Mitchell is a believer in himself and fate as well as a higher power. He sold that well. So he uses his sarcasm to disarm and relax people vs. O'Neill using it to push hard on people.

This was a high quality episode that really gave Ben some physical acting, something he is amazingly good at. The fact that the ep was self-referential is charming to me. Most of Stargate is very boring (sorry guys) because it doesn't deal in deep characterizations (at least in its later years). Everything is usually tied up in an nice ribbon at the end of the ep. This ep left things untied and awkward. Look at Mitchell's face at the end of the ep. It is saying "We're so screwed."

I give this ep an A because it moved me, was exciting, and sexy as all get out.
I agree with 99% of what you said. The other 1% is about most of Stargate being "very boring". I haven`t seen Season 7 yet but for the most part I think Stargate`s characterizations are deep enough. As you might have guessed from my handle, I`m one of those Scapers that got on the Stargate wagon when I heard BB was coming, and belatedly discovered another great show I hadn`t been watching.

Hmm. I gotta watch it again, but I don`t remember thinking Mitchell was thinking 'We`re so screwed" at the end. He just seemed kind of thoughtful and a bit . . . well when he dropped his head when Volnek went off about nothing being changed it seemed like he was thinking Volnek was either hopeless or going to be a tough sell, but I`m sure he has faith that he got somewhere with Jolan(?).

CeeKay Sheppard
September 11th, 2005, 12:22 AM
I thought "Babylon" was pretty good. The character development (and whumping! :D ) for Mitchell was excellent, though plotwise I could think of nothing but The Last Samurai – kind of a rip-off, but BB was fantastic.

pittsburghgirl
September 11th, 2005, 12:54 AM
I thought "Babylon" was pretty good. The character development (and whumping! :D ) for Mitchell was excellent, though plotwise I could think of nothing but The Last Samurai – kind of a rip-off, but BB was fantastic.
not having seen the movie The Last Samuri (sp?)-I can't really comment on it-but it was good seeing BB's character get a little action-I was wondering why they brought him on. In all honesty though-I liked this episode-probably the first that I can actually say that for-the others I was pretty neutral on-except for one that bored me to tears for the first 20 minutes. But I wonder how soon they would see the warrior that they started using Tretonin on-unless they sent him with a supply and instructions-he is either going to be back for a follow up or looking for a new symbiote.

Temporarily_cloned
September 11th, 2005, 01:05 AM
To be honest, i don't think she knew Landry was going to be her boss. I know Jack hired her, but did he, during one of his "forgetful" moments that he's prone to have, forget to tell her?

To me, that's believable. He did it to Cam, neglecting to tell him that everybody on SG-1 was shoving off for separate adventures in Avalon Pt. 1!

Exactly. She didn't know that Landry was going to be her boss. It was explained at the beginning of season 9.

Fargater
September 11th, 2005, 01:12 AM
Oh boy. You people have done it to me again. (Made me stay up like all night.) It`s 3 a.m., I have to empty my bladder desperately, but can`t stop reading the comments. Wow, some people really hate this one! Ouch! But I can`t agree with a lot of the nitpicks. Hmm. . .

Okay, the beginning was good. I`m not sure what I thought of Mitchell imitating Teal`c. Every time I`d read someone`s opinion I`d think, "Hmm." But I guess they`ve been together long enough for him to do that. Also, wouldn`t he kid around with other pilots the same way if he were back with them? He probably sees Teal`c like that, or at least is trying to drum up that sort of camaraderie. And Daniel even got into it by saying it "needs more bass", although it seemed a bit strained. But I agree with the person who said he should have shut up when Teal`c said he heard something. Unless he didn`t really think there was anything there. Stupid though. Shut up.

I don`t know how to hold those guns either, but I actually yelled at the screen "Get down!" when he just stood there. Duh. And then I thought well he`s a pilot, they`re used to being in the open with the enemy and having no cover, just maneuvering, so maybe he was reacting more like a pilot than a ground soldier. Lame excuse though because I`d have to assume they all get ground combat training. But that was probably a long time ago and he`s been a pilot mostly. Still instinct should have kicked in and he should hit the dirt.

People keep saying they`re not acting like a team, they should be together. Maybe, but there have been plenty of eps where Jack was alone, like that planet with the meteors that buried the gate and stranded him for like 2 or more months with those people, and even the advanced aging one although there was contact with the others, and, um, well I can`t think of anymore, but it`s happened at least those times. Oh, the one with Maybourne and him with those funky plants. Anyway, I didn`t see a problem with putting Mitchell front and center.

As for comments on lack of retrieval efforts, they showed that one scene of the remote controlled plane (forget what they`re called) flying over the mountains looking for him (and we can assume they sent more than one or many trips), and Landry`s lines served to let us know that rescue efforts were ongoing to the point that the higher ups were getting ready to say enough already for one guy. Or do you folks mean that SG-1 should have been on the planet looking? But they could see there was no trace of Mitchell or the Jaffa, and weren`t they trying to crack the code from that Ancient thingy? So it`s not like they were standing around. They do have to move the action along, and most of it took place with the Sodan and Mitchell. The other scenes let us know that yes they were trying, albeit unsuccessfully, and as someone commented, that oversight committee also had the power to pressure them to stop the search. Sam expressed the appropriate concern that they don`t leave people behind.

As for the mediocre interrogation, well what were they supposed to do? Beat on Volnek? Heh, like that would matter to this elite warrior, loss of Junior notwithstanding. They could see that just talking wasn`t getting them anywhere, especially since he was so enamored with the Ori. So they get that other Jaffa to come and try to tell him about the Ori from personal experience to convince him. Well it didn`t work of course because he disdains them anyway and thinks they`re all weak fools and nonbelievers. But what else were they supposed to try? They weren`t going to break thru his arrogance.

I already commented on the whole Landry/Lam thing in response to someone else, won`t repeat here.

Didn`t see The Last Samurai, so any blatant lifts from that movie were lost on me. But I liked the whole training thing. Ben really throws himself (literally, LOL) into his work, and it shows. Like someone already asked, does anyone know what the Hong Kong Twist is?

Yeah, I think we all knew Jolan(?) was Volnek`s brother. I even thought they were twins, they looked so much alike. What`s wrong with us knowing something Mitchell doesn`t? I didn`t think the writers were trying to hide the brother thing from us anyway.

I thought Mitchell was being very tactful in trying to convince What`s-his-name that the Ori don`t exactly have the Sodan`s best interests at heart. Like someone else said, he could have been executed if he pushed too much, and he could see it was just riling the guy so he backed off. But he jumped on the opportunity to work on Jolan when he found out Jolan wasn`t ready to just blindly follow them either. Even when he "talked too much" in that later training scene, it was all about convincing Jolan not to believe in the Ori. And he said some good stuff to What`s-his-name about not doubting their power but doubting their intentions or whatever he said.

I clean forgot about that Trek ep. Duh me. But I didn`t care. I like the speculations of some here that maybe it was Mitchell`s idea to do the scam because he saw that ep. No problems there. Kind of cool when you think about it. Funny even. "So, Cam, how did you get away?" "Oh, well, you know that old TOS ep? We just did like that." Ben is well known for his pop culture references, so if the "Bones" line was ad libbed I could believe it, but someone said it wasn`t, and that makes sense because the writers used the Trek plot device so writing a reference to it in the dialogue is logical. And funny to me. Wink and nod and all that. Mitchell does make a lot of little comments and references to pop culture/movies/whatever, not sure how many if any are ad libs, and I was worried about seeing too much Crichton in Mitchell, but I`m just going to agree with the person who said it`s likely just Ben`s style. I saw him at a con last year, and the guy is VERY sharp and knowledgeable about a lot of things, especially SF stuff, so maybe they just pop out now and then. Or maybe it`s the writers and they`re not worried about them sounding alike. :shrug: Anyway I liked the Trek similarity.



Okay, not sure I said everything I meant to, but it`s 4:17 a.m. here and I can`t think anymore.


Once again, thank you all for keeping me up all night. :D

Temporarily_cloned
September 11th, 2005, 01:22 AM
I obviously have too much time on my hands.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/kimonthejourney/iconage/cigarettesmokingpriorbykim.jpg



Screencap courtesy of ThomasDM. Thank you!

http://terrafirmascapers.com/Smileys/default/rotfl.gif

Fargater
September 11th, 2005, 01:28 AM
Well, there are the people who are Browder fans and are just happy to see him in another role, and not necessarily a John Crichton re-tread. That's enough for them. I liked last night's episode but I'm partial to Browder. That being said, I wouldn't watch if I didn't think he was interesting and brought something to the show.

One thing I noticed, though, that I don't think has been mentioned is that Mitchell seems to have an alternative POV to the Ori question, from Daniel's. Daniel's argument is that people need to use a rational approach, using science and technology to improve their status. That's okay.

Mitchell, on the other hand, argues for a faith based approach. You don't need a bag of magic tricks to believe there is a god. I base that assessment on his discussion with the Sodan guy (can't remember his name) when he pointed out that a bag of magic tricks does not a god make, and that on his planet people have believed without seeing proof. That's okay too.

Daniel's approach is more humanistic whereas Mitchell's is more in the way of traditional Judeo-Christian religious values. I'm not saying that this is Mitchell's "purpose" but I, as a person of Judeo-Christian faith, saw Mitchell's take on the Ori as being different from Daniel's. They're both anti-Ori but they give different reasons why. And I liked this side of Mitchell.
Yep, you expressed something I was thinking but didn`t know how to say. Thanks!


I'm not a hard core SG1 fan so I can't speak to the show's history in leadership. I also have little to no interest in military procedure so I can't really address that either. What I liked about Mitchell as a character in last night's show was the way he tried to bridge the differences through dialogue, how he "accepted his fate" so to speak, yet didn't give up when he easily could have. He fought and trained knowing that he might still end up dead. He's perseverant.
Yep, I loved that about him too. Earned Jolan`s respect, and gave him something to think about concerning the Ori.


Does SG1 "need" him? I don't know. As a viewer, do I relate to the character? Yes. He's still the outsider and maybe his ribbing Teal'c, which I didn't think was that intolerable, was his way of trying to fit into a team.
Yeah, I appreciate that notion.


Maybe the problem isn't Mitchell, but the fact that the other characters aren't acting any differently. There's new blood on the team. That's a given, it happens in work places all the time. You get a new boss and maybe someone else on the team was more capable but passed on the job or was passed over. That's a possible opportunity for conflict, even if you like the guy. Or for guilt if something happens to the guy and you don't like him much. So why aren't we seeing more of that?

Perhaps Mitchell's purpose was to shake things up a bit, the way it happens whenever a new dynamic is introduced into an established environment. So how come no one has taken advantage of that?
Hmmm. You raise some good points here.

Agent Scully
September 11th, 2005, 03:11 AM
this episode was terrible, the worst episode of season 9 for me....
well, i think i'll stop watching season 9.. i'm sooo desapointed !

we see "sg1" what ? ten minutes ?

i hate cameron, he brings nothing to the show.. :'( :'( :'( :'(

Shep'sSocks
September 11th, 2005, 03:27 AM
I think I saw this episode already. It was filmed in New Zealand and had samurais and Tom Cruise.

Frostfox
September 11th, 2005, 04:44 AM
Okay, my two'pen'eth, as if anyone is interested.

I enjoyed that.
I think that this is the watershed for Cameron, hardening him up, giving him a cause. BB was great to watch, lovely interaction with his teacher (who was terribly cute) and Tony Todd is, as always, outstanding. Even when quiet and speaking softly, he commands so much attention - loved the night scene on his balcony.

The Sodan village set is fabulous and it is very in keeping with what we saw on Kheb and the way the Ascended interact with people and the physical world. I want to see a lot more of them.

And all those fabulous shades of grey - just as you think you have the Sodan sussed, in comes the Cigarette Smoking Prior to muddy the waters. Nothing is as black and white as it originally seems, this is happening a lot this season and I, for one, am loving it.

esoap524, your comparison between Cameron and Daniel's approach to the Ori is facinating and fits with what we know of Daniel's character and what we are finding out about Cam.

FF (who, as with every other week this season, has managed to get a DS9 comparison in here - Tony Todd played the adult Jake Sisko in the fabulous episode The Visitor! He's such a splendid actor, he's a pleasure to watch.)

jyh
September 11th, 2005, 05:46 AM
Re Dr Lam:


Forget military protocol--she's acting like a spoiled 10 year old. Hardly professional behavior, civilian or military.

Bingo!! I think this is the worst mistake TPTB have made this season: turning SG-1 into a doggone soap opera by injecting the "family conflict" thing. And doing it badly, at that. I don't care if Lam IS a civilian, and it doesn't matter that she IS Landry's daughter. She's supposed to be an intelligent, professional woman, and she should act like one. ESPECIALLY in front of other SGC personnel!!! When she and Landry are behind closed doors, she can act like a petulant, bratty daughter all she wants, but in front of any other member of the Stargate Command staff, officer or enlisted, military or civlian, she should be 100% professional, speaking respectfully and not betraying by a single twitch that she and Landry have a personal connection. Regardless of her military/non-military designation, or what her medical chain of command, he is still her 'boss' for all intents and purposes while she's at the SGC.

Any doctor who has reached her age and professional level should have learned long ago to put her emotions aside while at work. I know I wouldn't want her working on me if I were a wounded SGC member.....

SG-25B11
September 11th, 2005, 05:50 AM
I have watched Stargate SG-1 from the start of the series. I like every single episode that I've seen thus far in the series. Although, there are still several episodes I have yet to see from Seasons 1 and 2. I have the dvd sets of Seasons Seven, Six, Four and Three so far. I plan on buying the other three Seasons and Season Eight when it is released.

I have been reading the posts on many thread that are in this forum for several months now. I respect and understand the views of other fans that have posted their comments on the show. Now I have decided to start writing my own comments on the show.

I look at Stargate SG-1 as one television show among many. I like the series, however with anything that I like, I don't put it at the top as being the best. It is just a t.v. show that I enjoy watching.

Concerning this weeks episode, Babylon, I think it was a good show. Yes, it was not completely original in its story and some of the events that happened were predictable to the viewer. However, in my opinion, this could be said about any movie or television show that has been made. There wasn't a lot of team interaction between SG-1, but there was a lot of character interaction between the regular characters and new characters in the episode. This allowed for good character development of the characters introduced in Babylon. I don't think the focus was just centered on Mitchell throughout the entire episode. In regards to the way Mitchell fired the P-90, Vala fired it the same way in The Powers That Be and I don't think a single negative comment was made about it then.

I think I've written enough for my first post on this forum. Bottom line, Babylon worked for me and I would watch it again. I look forward to the upcoming episodes of Stargate SG-1.

AGateFan
September 11th, 2005, 05:59 AM
I have watched Stargate SG-1 from the start of the series. I like every single episode that I've seen thus far in the series. Although, there are still several episodes I have yet to see from Seasons 1 and 2. I have the dvd sets of Seasons Seven, Six, Four and Three so far. I plan on buying the other three Seasons and Season Eight when it is released.

I have been reading the posts on many thread that are in this forum for several months now. I respect and understand the views of other fans that have posted their comments on the show. Now I have decided to start writing my own comments on the show.

I look at Stargate SG-1 as one television show among many. I like the series, however with anything that I like, I don't put it at the top as being the best. It is just a t.v. show that I enjoy watching.

Concerning this weeks episode, Babylon, I think it was a good show. Yes, it was not completely original in its story and some of the events that happened were predictable to the viewer. However, in my opinion, this could be said about any movie or television show that has been made. There wasn't a lot of team interaction between SG-1, but there was a lot of character interaction between the regular characters and new characters in the episode. This allowed for good character development of the characters introduced in Babylon. I don't think the focus was just centered on Mitchell throughout the entire episode. In regards to the way Mitchell fired the P-90, Vala fired it the same way in The Powers That Be and I don't think a single negative comment was made about it then.

I think I've written enough for my first post on this forum. Bottom line, Babylon worked for me and I would watch it again. I look forward to the upcoming episodes of Stargate SG-1.
Hello and welcome to the forum. We may not all agree with what you say but you are free to have whatever opinions you like, dont let anyone tell you otherwise :).

As regards to Vala and the P-90...Well you would sort of expect Vala not to know how to fire a P-90 she is not supposed to be a trained Military officer in charge of other trained military officers. My thing is SG-1 has always done "military" well and it is sad that they have not taken the time with the new "lead" to get him into the swing of things. BB is a great actor and I am sure if someone took a little time to show him the ropes he could seem just as professional military as Oneill and Carter.... heck even Daniel looks more skilled then him at this point.

AGateFan
September 11th, 2005, 06:09 AM
BTW with the exception of my Lam issue and my CM is not looking military enough issues I liked this ep just fine. It was just as good as many of the other non-team oriented eps such as 100 days and was better then some others like ICON.

SG-25B11
September 11th, 2005, 06:59 AM
Dr. Lam's comments to her father were not completely out of line. The operation she did to save the Jaffa's life lasted for nine straight hours. Her comments were against the immediate interigation of her patient. The personal conflict between them has been kept between them. It has not effected her duties as the Chief Medical Officer. She does not seem unfit to be in her current position at the SGC.

alterran1
September 11th, 2005, 08:53 AM
dont kno if this has akready been bought up, havnt gotthe tiem to read the entire thread, but did anyone else notice the new camera angles?

also, i saw someon mention the last samurai.... i totally agree. one thing tho the jaffa are black, ye thte children are Chinese... also remeber the jaffa who provided a testimonia,l... omg he was so scrawny, don't the writers know that the jaffa are a raceof warrior people.. ergo not scrawny

scifiannie
September 11th, 2005, 09:06 AM
Re: criticism of Lam. I've found her cold and off-putting from the start and wonder not so much about the character and the "soap-opera" family conflict stuff, which I personally like and think makes for a more interesting show, but about the actor's choices here. Lexa Doig needs to find the warmth beneath the coldness. Right now, no matter who she's interacting with--her Dad, Dr. Lee, etc.--she's just, well, a cold b***ch (are we allowed to use that word on the forum?). If you review her previous appearance in other eps, you'll see she's basically snarky to everyone.That's a performance choice. Perhaps a more skilled actor could find the layers underneath, make us sympathize with her character. Right now, she's going for one tone, and it's pretty unpleasant and unsympathetic, even with the hints at motivation they've given us.

As for Mitchell and his gun...well, I wouldn't have a clue about proper hold and all, but if he didn't do it right, it could be lack of training on the part of the production toward the actor, or it could be it's another character choice by the Browder to show Mitchell's "flyboy" swagger. (Or it could be the way they shoot pulse pistols in the Uncharted Territories...).Whatever it was, he did look, well, darn good shooting that thing.

citro
September 11th, 2005, 09:57 AM
Has anyone noticed - in the end - if the captured Sodan, when he left SGC, had some kind of bag with him? I guess he still needs the tretonin to keep him on the safe side, but I can't check it out myself (I have to wait for a rerun)

the fifth man
September 11th, 2005, 11:26 AM
He didn't have any bag that I noticed.

entil2001
September 11th, 2005, 11:27 AM
Ever since Mitchell’s first appearance this season, I’ve been waiting for the writers to give us an episode devoted to the new commander of SG-1. A lot of the earlier episodes were devoted to Daniel and his motivations, with Mitchell being little more than the one applying pressure to get the team back together. His reactions have been muted during the rise of the Ori, giving Daniel room to maneuver. This time, though, it’s all about him.

I, for one, enjoyed it. I was getting worried that the writers were turning Mitchell into a John Crichton clone. This episode clarified the situation. While both characters use humor and pop-culture references to alleviate tension, Mitchell is a capable military officer. He’s not some fish out of water trying to survive, forced to lead despite himself. Mitchell is, at the core, the kind of man that O’Neill might have been before his life took that downward spiral after Charlie’s death.

Some elements of the story were a little predictable. Particularly, I was able to identify Jolan as Volnak’s brother (I think that was the name of the injured Warrior of Sodan) even before Jolan mentioned that the nearest relative would fight Mitchell to the death. Actually, I’m still not entirely clear on what the tradition was. OK, if a non-Warrior kills a Warrior, and the non-Warrior is captured, the non-Warrior is taught the ways of the Warriors so that he can die at the hands of a Warrior in a battle to the death…how does that make sense again?

That really doesn’t matter, though, since it’s all an excuse to have Mitchell there to deal with the invasion of a Prior among some of the most respected of legendary Jaffa. The situation is such that he’s the only one in the position to do something about it. For all their efforts with Volnak, the rest of the team makes very little progress. So it gives the writers a chance to show something of Mitchell’s character.

Mitchell recognizes that the Sodan leader, Haikon, has bought into the propaganda of the Prior. The Sodan tend to do whatever Haikon says they should do, and that means bowing down to “gods” that are just too hard to resist, especially when they are close enough to the Ancients that they already worship. Mitchell determines that the one way to get his message across to other Sodan is by gaining their respect. Thus, he trains harder than any non-Warrior ever has, hoping that it will be enough.

The resolution is stolen right out of the “Amok Time” handbook, and a possible revolution is sparked for good measure. I expect the Sodan to make another appearance relatively soon (and yes, I’m still avoiding spoilers, so I’m not going by that). The writers acknowledge it, at least!

One aspect I really liked were the hints about the politics of searching for Mitchell; apparently, the whole issue with the international committee is going to be an ongoing one. In past seasons, the political aspects of the show were sometimes less balanced, taking over too much or not enough of the story. This season, with the return to gate travel as the norm, the politics are still present but more integrated. Along with the positive focus on Mitchell as a distinct character and a vivid Sodan portrayal, that balance is what makes this episode work so well.

the fifth man
September 11th, 2005, 11:34 AM
Very nice post. I couldn't agree with you more.

scifiannie
September 11th, 2005, 11:42 AM
Can't remember if discussion of the title "Babylon" was here or in some other thread, but someone said the connection was the similarity between the code of the Babylonian King Hammurabi--such as "an eye for an eye"--and the Sodan code. Here's another take on the title: biblically, Babylon is the place of exile. It's where all the Israelites were forced to go after they were conquered by the Babylonians. The Sodan are in a place of exile, too, even though the exile is self-imposed. They are hidden from the rest of the Jaffa, separated from them by tradition and history. Fifty years after the Babylonian exile, the Israelites were allowed to return to their homeland when the Persian, Cyrus, defeated the Babylonians. It will be interesting to see whether or not the Sodan's exile will also be ended--by choice, by internal rebellion, by defeat at the hands of a more powerful enemy, or by some other means. Whatever happens, it better involve our favorite team...

the fifth man
September 11th, 2005, 11:47 AM
Yeah, I definitely want to see the Sodan again. I think a decent storyline can be developed involving them.

esoap524
September 11th, 2005, 12:20 PM
In regards to the way Mitchell fired the P-90, Vala fired it the same way in The Powers That Be and I don't think a single negative comment was made about it then.




I think the main difference there is that Mitchell is military so presumably has been trained in firing a gun. Vala isn't. For me, watching Browder and Black fire guns and look cool is all I need ;) (yes, I'm in the shallow end of the pool, just looking at the pretty)

sg-1fanintn
September 11th, 2005, 12:37 PM
Well, I hate to throw a wet blanket on this discussion, but I really didn't enjoy this episode. Now, what went on at the Sodan camp was well-done, and gave Mitchell a chance to shine. That part was good. But the team stuff felt forced and unnatural, like no one was comfortable with the rest of the script.

I enjoyed Ex Deus Machina so much.....and thought the show was really starting to get its rhythm back. So, I was doubly disappointed by Babylon. I'm hoping next week's half-season finales are a big improvement.

LaCroix
September 11th, 2005, 12:39 PM
I think I saw this episode already. It was filmed in New Zealand and had samurais and Tom Cruise.


And let's hope that Cruise and Warner Bros. didn't see this episode/hear of it.

Uber
September 11th, 2005, 01:13 PM
Well, I hate to throw a wet blanket on this discussion, but I really didn't enjoy this episode. Now, what went on at the Sodan camp was well-done, and gave Mitchell a chance to shine. That part was good. But the team stuff felt forced and unnatural, like no one was comfortable with the rest of the script.

I enjoyed Ex Deus Machina so much.....and thought the show was really starting to get its rhythm back. So, I was doubly disappointed by Babylon. I'm hoping next week's half-season finales are a big improvement.I was all excited after EDM...and this really threw a bucket of icy cold water on my enjoyment level...it was just a huge step backward for me...

Let me quote someone from a different forum...oh, wait, it's you! ;) ...because you really nailed down what's been buzzing in my mind:
<snippety doo da>
I think the difference is the canvas on which the actor has been placed. Farscape was a very different show from SG-1. Yes, they were both sci-fi, and both Jack O'Neill and John Crichton are self-assured wise-crackers.....but the similarities end there. Farscape was a world all to itself. SG-1 has constant ties to Earth and lots of real-world implications. John Crichton had to swagger to keep from being run over by the outrageous personalities he encountered. The same mannerisms seem childish on the SG-1 canvas. I think BB is still feeling very uncertain with the dynamics of the universe into which he has moved. He's trying to be the snarky leader without being accused (as we already have done) of being a carbon copy of Jack O'Neill. The result is a very uneven performance in the team scenes.

Another component of our unrest is the leadership issue. We KNOW that Sam should rightfully have the command, and that she exhibits the maturity, skills and experience for the job. It's unrealistic that she isn't doing that. And Mitchell's lack of experience make him a poor leader, because [b] everyone on his team is more experienced than he is.

A third component is that we all miss RDA and Jack. We have certain expectations of how the team is supposed to interact, and that isn't happening. We're missing the sense of family that was there for eight years, because a very important member of our family is gone. Add to that the late arrival of the other key member of the family this season.....and the producers easing her back into the show.....and it just feels wrong, wrong, wrong more than it should. I agree that Ex Deus Machina was the best ep so far, and I also agree with many of the other sentiments that have been posted here in the past 24 hours about what's missing.

The final component of this strange situation, IMHO, is that TPTB have been purposely vague about what has transpired since the end of S8, how Sam ended up at Area 51, where Jack really went, etc., etc. As Kat said, it's probably because they don't want to commit anything to canon in case they need to change it later.

Take one or two of these things happening in a season of transition on a TV show, and most reasonable minds can accept the change. But this is quite a bit for fans to absorb, and our perceptions of what the show IS are telling us that it just doesn't feel right.

Will it improve? Gee, I hope so. That’s why I hold out hope for the second half of S9, when AT should be fully integrated into the storylines. So, I’m first hoping for a good story arc coming out of next week’s half-season finale, and I’m setting my sights on January, when I hope everything will begin to gel.:eek:

Uh...wow. What she said.

You hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head with everything you proverbially said...why Ben's jokes are falling flat...how we're missing Jack...why the dynamic isn't there yet...what's missing and why...yadda yadda...

I really don't have anything substantive to add to that except...

...is there any talk of cake?

:cool:

dosed150
September 11th, 2005, 01:53 PM
I think the main difference there is that Mitchell is military so presumably has been trained in firing a gun. Vala isn't. For me, watching Browder and Black fire guns and look cool is all I need ;) (yes, I'm in the shallow end of the pool, just looking at the pretty)

you seem to be forgetting that mitchell was a pilot how often do you think pilots fire p90s

Rhondagirl
September 11th, 2005, 03:40 PM
I thought "Babylon" was pretty good. The character development (and whumping! :D ) for Mitchell was excellent, though plotwise I could think of nothing but The Last Samurai – kind of a rip-off, but BB was fantastic.
:D :D :p
Finally!! A Ben get's his butt kicked but really good episode!!
And he took off his shirt!!! Always a plus!! The writers got to use his talkative manner, his personableness, his comedic approach to getting his butt kicked and did I mention he TOOK OFF HIS SHIRT!! Loved this episode!

Uber
September 11th, 2005, 03:43 PM
you seem to be forgetting that mitchell was a pilot how often do you think pilots fire p90sWell...Jack was a pilot too. One does not negate the other...

:cool:

GenHammondsBarber
September 11th, 2005, 04:10 PM
I liked the episode alot.

I thought the comparison between the atlantis episode and sg-1 episode was incredible. You see the difference a year makes in the team chemistry. That WAS the point of the night. Look at the difference between the atlantis team and the sg-1 team. The difference is not because of the writers. Think realistically. SG-1 has hardly had any missions together as currently constituted and they are trying to find their roles in the team now and to understand their new leader. Obviously they would not be as upset about Mitchell being MIA as they would when Jack went missing. They even use similar lines...the "bedside manner" line....notice that a member of the regular cast is at the bedside in atlantis, but in sg-1 its a person from another race from another far off planet. That was done on purpose to illustrate that sg-1 is still pieces trying to come together.

I loved that their is ancient technology brought in here. Undoubtedly, this will come into play and make the sodan important for us to ally with. This seems to be seting up nicely. There are alot of angles they can pursue here.

I loved that they had the prior for a matter of seconds. They are setting up for william b Davis to be very very evil I do beleive.

People keep complaining about them not being a solid team. Well, that takes time and I am glad that they are not forcing us to see them as a team. That will come naturally. Establishing a team takes time.

I already get the feeling that Teal'c enjoys being around Mitchell. However, isn't a fan of his humor or doesn't quite get it. I think Mithcell's "mocking" Teal'c was a sincere form of flatery. People complain on one hand that Mitchell does not have enough character development but then complain that Daniel should get over not going to atlantis because its been awhile. I like that he didn't get screwed out of the best assignment ever, and just join up sg-1 and go about business as usual.

I think the story was a good one and set up alot for the second half of the season.

Wandering Tamer
September 11th, 2005, 05:50 PM
I don't know if I want the Sodan as an allies. I mean, I think they're cool, but I'd want them to follow the Orii for plot reasons. They weren't coerced into faith, they believe. What's wrong with that? Besides, I think the Orii need some soilders who know how to fight.

LaCroix
September 11th, 2005, 06:07 PM
If I may, even if Mitchell is a fighter pilot, one who think that he should be qualified in all forms of weapons training. There may be a breach where the only thing that stands between you and the enemy is a p90.

But TPTB either a- didn't think of BB practicing with a prop or b-- thought he
knew how to fire a weapon, since he was on Farscape or c-- didn't care.

SGalisa
September 11th, 2005, 06:58 PM
I, too, forgot about the tretonin (and no, I didn't see him carrying any bag or supplies of it with him... maybe the one brother who needs it will return and become ill, and maybe get a symbiote; or else this could become an opportunity for the Ori to do their magic resurrection stuff - and really confuse issues that much more. :(


Originally posted by SierraGulf1:
Daniel still seems bitter over missing his ride to Atlantis. Ever since Beachhead Daniel has seemed a bit off to me. I'm hoping next week he'll be more Daniel....somehow I believe Daniel will forever be kicking himself in frustration, until he *does* get to go to Atlantis. It's been his goal -hence archeological dream, ever since he first discovered info about the "Lost City of the Ancients". :)

The only question I have is once he's there, will he regret going if he ends up encountering a Wraith attack? I think the ancient city and its technology would fascinate Daniel, but not the evil natives of the Pegasus galaxy (wraith and iratus bugs primarily).

After seeing Dr. Rodney McKay so gun-ho excited about going there, and once finally being there - utterly terrified about a wraith encounter, I just wonder how Daniel might react. (hoping it wouldn't be like Dr. Beckett, but that would be so like Daniel to help anyone appearing to be in need of aid ...and Beckett attempted to help a wraith (different from Elia), knowing full well the guy could potentially turn him into the next meal, until Shep killed the wraith instead...!) :eek:


Originally posted by Mr. Seven:
But to the powers that be: You have to stop dressing Browder and Shanks in the same gear. During the start of the episode I didn't know who was who. Put one of them in a backwards hat or something.they *were* wearing different hats:
Cameron(Ben Browder) had his hat/ballcap on backwards, and I was wondering if anyone else was too (answer: no, it was only Mitchell). Daniel(Michael Shanks) was wearing his usual in-the-field bandana on (and he always looks *good* in it, too!). ;)


Originally posted by Albion:
I did enjoy seeing Carter in full soldier mode in the teaser. I always enjoy seeing that and she does it very well. If she's not in charge of SG1, she should be. I have the distinct feeling that with Mitchell looking out for them either he or they will be dead in five minutes flat. Heroically staying behind to let the rest of your team escape is all very well, but Jack would have managed to fire back at those Jaffa while using the best cover he could find...In defense of Mitchell... I think what happened was this:
after the rest of the SG1 team moved ahead, Cam spotted a moving twig off the path, and got temporarily distracted. He saw nothing because the other guy was *invisible*. That's why he never saw that his way became blocked, when he turned to move onward with the rest of SG-1, but instead got involved and lost during a sudden "enemy" fight.

Agent_Dark
September 11th, 2005, 07:43 PM
you seem to be forgetting that mitchell was a pilot how often do you think pilots fire p90s
No, because he made a point of telling the guy he was training with that he'd 'spent 6 months in Airborne Training at Fort Benning'. Thats airborne training (jumping out of planes etc) for infantrymen. So why he doesn't know basic squad tactics, or even how to shoot properly is beyond me.
Though I think disregarding that whole Airborne Training thing is a better thing to do, as a pilot who is leading a Fighter Squadron will not have the time or inclination to go and do advanced infantry training...


Well...Jack was a pilot too. One does not negate the other...
Actually... to get picky here :P I doubt Jack was an actual pilot. He knows how to fly, for sure, but I don't think he actually would of spent too much time in an active fighter squadron. He wears a Master Parachutist badge on his uniform (which implies that he did infantry and special forces training), not Pilot Wings like Mitchell does.

Uber
September 11th, 2005, 07:52 PM
No, because he made a point of telling the guy he was training with that he'd 'spent 6 months in Airborne Training at Fort Benning'. Thats airborne training (jumping out of planes etc) for infantrymen. So why he doesn't know basic squad tactics, or even how to shoot properly is beyond me.
Though I think disregarding that whole Airborne Training thing is a better thing to do, as a pilot who is leading a Fighter Squadron will not have the time or inclination to go and do advanced infantry training...


Actually... to get picky here :P I doubt Jack was an actual pilot. He knows how to fly, for sure, but I don't think he actually would of spent too much time in an active fighter squadron. He wears a Master Parachutist badge on his uniform (which implies that he did infantry and special forces training), not Pilot Wings like Mitchell does.You pickin' a fight with me buddy???

*assumes sparring position*

Nah...just kiddin'...who loves ya, AD???

As for Jack, I was re-REwatching Broca Divide the other night and it stuck out to me that Makepeace referred to him as "flyboy." Plus he usually was the one to pilot everything...

So..."flyboy"...pilot...

:cool:

Agent_Dark
September 11th, 2005, 07:54 PM
You pickin' a fight with me buddy???

*assumes sparring position*

Nah...just kiddin'...who loves ya, AD???

As for Jack, I was re-REwatching Broca Divide the other night and it stuck out to me that Makepeace referred to him as "flyboy." Plus he usually was the one to pilot everything...

So..."flyboy"...pilot...

:cool:
Flyboy in that sense was reffering to the fact that Jack's Air Force, not a pilot ;)

Uber
September 11th, 2005, 08:02 PM
Flyboy in that sense was reffering to the fact that Jack's Air Force, not a pilot ;)Would you stop pestering me with FACTS??? Sheesh.

You're desire to be accurate and absolutely right is exceedingly annoying.

Especially when it, um, proves me wrong.

:D

Chaosmaid
September 11th, 2005, 08:23 PM
Can't remember if discussion of the title "Babylon" was here or in some other thread, but someone said the connection was the similarity between the code of the Babylonian King Hammurabi--such as "an eye for an eye"--and the Sodan code. Here's another take on the title: biblically, Babylon is the place of exile. It's where all the Israelites were forced to go after they were conquered by the Babylonians. The Sodan are in a place of exile, too, even though the exile is self-imposed. They are hidden from the rest of the Jaffa, separated from them by tradition and history. Fifty years after the Babylonian exile, the Israelites were allowed to return to their homeland when the Persian, Cyrus, defeated the Babylonians. It will be interesting to see whether or not the Sodan's exile will also be ended--by choice, by internal rebellion, by defeat at the hands of a more powerful enemy, or by some other means. Whatever happens, it better involve our favorite team...

Thanks! I was wondering what the title had to do with the Sodan.

In regards to the episode itself I'll say that I agree with some and disagree with others. Whatever comments I may have would only be rehashing what has already been posted.

CM

MediaSavant
September 11th, 2005, 08:39 PM
If I may, even if Mitchell is a fighter pilot, one who think that he should be qualified in all forms of weapons training. There may be a breach where the only thing that stands between you and the enemy is a p90.

But TPTB either a- didn't think of BB practicing with a prop or b-- thought he
knew how to fire a weapon, since he was on Farscape or c-- didn't care.

Excuse me, but what to directors do on this show?

One would think that it isn't the actor's responsibility to learn these things, but the director's responsibility to tell them how to give the proper performance.

I'm relatively new around here, but why is all the heat going in BB's direction and not the director who should have told him, "no, do it this way." Isn't that the director's job?

Fargater
September 11th, 2005, 08:48 PM
Dr. Lam's comments to her father were not completely out of line. The operation she did to save the Jaffa's life lasted for nine straight hours. Her comments were against the immediate interigation of her patient. The personal conflict between them has been kept between them. It has not effected her duties as the Chief Medical Officer. She does not seem unfit to be in her current position at the SGC.
Thank you. That`s pretty much what I said. I watched it again and all I saw in that scene was the doctor asserting herself on behalf of her patient. She said something like it (interrogation as soon as he woke up) wasn`t her idea of good post-op care. And I hadn`t paid attention really, but you`re right. The personal conflict as far as I remember has been kept between them. As for her sitting, she`s tired for cryin` out loud. And she was pretty civil until Landry said he wanted to know as soon as Volnek woke up. Then she went into Protective Doctor mode.

Fargater
September 11th, 2005, 08:59 PM
Ever since Mitchell’s first appearance this season, I’ve been waiting for the writers to give us an episode devoted to the new commander of SG-1. A lot of the earlier episodes were devoted to Daniel and his motivations, with Mitchell being little more than the one applying pressure to get the team back together. His reactions have been muted during the rise of the Ori, giving Daniel room to maneuver. This time, though, it’s all about him.

I, for one, enjoyed it. I was getting worried that the writers were turning Mitchell into a John Crichton clone. This episode clarified the situation. While both characters use humor and pop-culture references to alleviate tension, Mitchell is a capable military officer. He’s not some fish out of water trying to survive, forced to lead despite himself. Mitchell is, at the core, the kind of man that O’Neill might have been before his life took that downward spiral after Charlie’s death.

Some elements of the story were a little predictable. Particularly, I was able to identify Jolan as Volnak’s brother (I think that was the name of the injured Warrior of Sodan) even before Jolan mentioned that the nearest relative would fight Mitchell to the death. Actually, I’m still not entirely clear on what the tradition was. OK, if a non-Warrior kills a Warrior, and the non-Warrior is captured, the non-Warrior is taught the ways of the Warriors so that he can die at the hands of a Warrior in a battle to the death…how does that make sense again?

That really doesn’t matter, though, since it’s all an excuse to have Mitchell there to deal with the invasion of a Prior among some of the most respected of legendary Jaffa. The situation is such that he’s the only one in the position to do something about it. For all their efforts with Volnak, the rest of the team makes very little progress. So it gives the writers a chance to show something of Mitchell’s character.

Mitchell recognizes that the Sodan leader, Haikon, has bought into the propaganda of the Prior. The Sodan tend to do whatever Haikon says they should do, and that means bowing down to “gods” that are just too hard to resist, especially when they are close enough to the Ancients that they already worship. Mitchell determines that the one way to get his message across to other Sodan is by gaining their respect. Thus, he trains harder than any non-Warrior ever has, hoping that it will be enough.

The resolution is stolen right out of the “Amok Time” handbook, and a possible revolution is sparked for good measure. I expect the Sodan to make another appearance relatively soon (and yes, I’m still avoiding spoilers, so I’m not going by that). The writers acknowledge it, at least!

One aspect I really liked were the hints about the politics of searching for Mitchell; apparently, the whole issue with the international committee is going to be an ongoing one. In past seasons, the political aspects of the show were sometimes less balanced, taking over too much or not enough of the story. This season, with the return to gate travel as the norm, the politics are still present but more integrated. Along with the positive focus on Mitchell as a distinct character and a vivid Sodan portrayal, that balance is what makes this episode work so well.
AMEN.

Traveler Enroute1
September 11th, 2005, 09:17 PM
I also think some important things were either set up, or touched apon in this story. I think that it's pretty clear that Cam is hiding a devout belief in God himself. He said that "he'd already been there" in response to Haikon's jibe about "when you are facing your own death, maybe you will understand." I think Mitchell had some sort of religious experience when he was in that crashed 302 in Antarctica. That's why he worked so hard to recover. That's why he worked so hard to get into SG-1.
-IMF
<<my snips>>

Great point. Cam has on more than one occasion mentioned his Southern church upbringing and his grandmother's platitudes. The Jaffa leader had to give Cam's words some reflection, ("our faith doesn't require us to see our god" -paraphrase). Cam may turn out to be the fulcrom on which the battle of Ori domination and resistence to them will turn: his " devout belief in God." His faith and the peaceful mission of SGC, vs the visible and violent mission of he Ori. I don't recall anyone on SG1 being partial to religious belief. A contrast that may bring them allies? Hmmm. What ARE the PTB up to?

Just sayin'.

Traveler Enroute1
September 11th, 2005, 09:22 PM
I obviously have too much time on my hands.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/kimonthejourney/iconage/cigarettesmokingpriorbykim.jpg



Screencap courtesy of ThomasDM. Thank you!

LOL!
He won't have a problem lighting up. :rolleyes:

Just sayin'.

Fargater
September 11th, 2005, 09:30 PM
Well I watched it again and paid particular attention to the things people (including myself) were picking on.

Opening scene: They`ve been there for a while and apparently Teal`c keeps "hearing" things. Mitchell yakking, whether he should or not, is just the effects of the continuous false alarms. He is starting to doubt (and says so) the reliability of the intel. When the ambush starts, they all were still standing, not just Mitchell. None of them made any real attempt to hit the dirt or at least get down/behind anything. I`m guessing it`s because they were looking for the enemy to return fire only couldn`t see the invisible warriors. But still they all should have tried to get behind cover more. I bet Jack would have been on the ground jammed up behind a tree and waiting for the bad guys to show themselves.

As for how BB held the gun, well I saw them all holding them that way at different times during the ambush. Sometimes they had it in one hand and braced on their hip when firing. It was quick, but it was there.

Someone compared Mitchell to Sam re. leadership skills and said she got on her radio right away and called for backup or relayed their position or whatever she did, and said Mitchell should have done that. She didn`t do that until they had already broken and run from the Sodan and had a moment to make the call. Mitchell was already busy fighting Volnek when she got on her radio.


And I can`t remember what else I was going to say. :rolleyes:

Busterfan
September 11th, 2005, 09:43 PM
I loved this ep. We really needed to learn more about Mitchell and see him in action and this ep gave us this chance. I like how the character is optimistic and determined and refuses to give up. I also like how he had the most sensible reasons of all for not following the Ori -- that you shouldn't need proof for faith and that the Sodan should look into the Ori before they give up 5,000 years of tradition. He didn't try to lecture them or bully them into his way of thinking, he kept quiet in the beginning and did waht they wanted and he gradually tried talking to them. And it worked in that he convinced Jolnar (?) to resist the Ori, even if he didn't convince the leader.

The parts back at SGC were less interesting, imo, but they were quick and thankfully didn't have too much explaining/talking. I think one reason I really liked the scenes with Mitchell, other than just enjoying the character, was that they were really pretty exposition-lite. The less exposition the better, imo. It just slows everything down.

I never saw the Last Samurai, so that reference didn't bother me. And I enjoyed the nod to the ST:TOS ep with Mitchell's "Bones" comment. I like that Mitchell saw the similarity in the situation and mentioned it.

As far as the military nitpicks that so many people are upset about. Eh, whatever. They'll never bother me because, for one reason, I was never in the military and I just don't care about how exact that stuff is. And secondly, I watch SG-1 for a solid story and interesting characters, if some of the military details aren't right, it is soooo far down my list of things that make an ep enjoyable that I really don't notice. I'd much rather the writers spent time on character development and plot twists rather than how high a P-90 should be held and whether it's okay to talk after wandering around on a planet half a day on vague intel is something a military leader would do or not. Mitchell's dialogue in the beginning was amusing while giving us the exposition to explain the situation, so it worked quite well for me.

Ascended Times.2
September 11th, 2005, 11:56 PM
Why was all of Sg-1 wearing blue??????? They have always seemed to wear green, is it just to branch off from the O'neill look? Personally, i quite liked it...

Kas
September 12th, 2005, 01:17 AM
Love all your post Busterfan... thank you.


I'd much rather the writers spent time on character development and plot twists rather than how high a P-90 should be held and whether it's okay to talk after wandering around on a planet half a day on vague intel is something a military leader would do or not.

Hear, hear! And regarding Mitchell talking, As soon as Teal'c said 'be quiet', they all were...with guns at the ready. It wasn't until Teal'c (with his superior hearing abilities), gave the all clear by saying 'it was NOTHING' that they all relaxed and Mitchell with Daniel had a convo.

I've also seen it said that Mitchell was just strolling through the forest with P90 down by his side totally unprofessionally with only one hand on it instead of being alert and at the ready... well, look again. I know they look alike but it was Daniel who was doing that. Some people seem determined to nitpick on Ben/Mitchell.

I wouldn't normally post pics in a discussion forum but this particular complaint stood out for me.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/Kas12/Stargate/Babylon/baby-006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/Kas12/Stargate/Babylon/baby-007.jpg

AGateFan
September 12th, 2005, 02:26 AM
Well Daniel is a civilian and even he was holding his weapon correctly when the scene started he moved it to one hand when steping over somthing and then when he got into the conversation with Mitchell. And to me it looked like everyone (except teal'c and Mitchell) got to their Knees behind a log when the shooting started. Teal'c had the big machine gun so he had a reason to remain standing, Mitchell (although he bend his knees) should have been down with Sam and Daniel.

BTW why are jaffa such bad shots. This is a Stargate question in general but in this ep particular. They were invisible and had plenty of time to aim you think they would have hit something, or gotten even close....I know, it would have been a really short ep if they had actually hit something, but still. *imitating Mitchell imitating teal'c* "Sodan are great warriors, but did I mention they can’t hit the side of a barn while standing right next to it" *imitation over*

Don’t get me wrong, Mitchell was great in the rest of the episode. He just looked\sound everything but professional and Military in the first segment of the show. I was hoping for a little more out of the character, maybe a kickaz military guy showing why he should be in charge. Currently Mitchell is less kickaz than Ford, but he has been given more personality early on then Ford was.

And yes IMHO this is more an issue with writing and directing of the character then anything the actor is doing. Sort of a let-down considering in Avalon I and II he was looking like a sharp military guy (like O'Neill) who actually wanted to pay attention to what was going on and could contribute with more then epiphanies of simplicity (like O'neill). I can't figure out why they are writing him this way.

Hatcheter
September 12th, 2005, 03:25 AM
Why was all of Sg-1 wearing blue??????? They have always seemed to wear green, is it just to branch off from the O'neill look? Personally, i quite liked it...

They alternate between blue and green while in the SGC, with no obvious pattern. The real question ought to be "what was with the black while offworld?"

bmicales
September 12th, 2005, 05:52 AM
Well, after viewing Babylon three times, including pausing the the DVD during
the gun battle, I have the following conclusions:

1) Mitchell is clearly in charge of the team, since a) he does order them "Down" when the firing starts and b) he does order them back to the gate.

2) Mitchell is firing the P90 correctly - although maybe not in a mode that most others are accustomed to see. For a direct link, see the site: P90 Promotional Video (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=471) (This is not a direct link to the video, go to the bottom of the page, second to last line has a direct link). Time points showing various positions:
3:17 - lying down - sighted
4:26 - stiff arm
5:18 (?) this looks more posed to show a feature - hip
6:24 - just below chest height (the position Mitchell appeared to be using)
also view Season 6 Allegiance (at the end) - O'Neill is firing his P90 from just below chest height.

3) When ordered down, all the rest of the team (at least Carter and Daniel) does is to kneel (on one knee) ON THE PATH. Mitchell does "sort of" kneel down but his knee does not make ground contact.

I do admit that Mitchell's healing does seem a bit fast, but I am wondering if that has anything to do with the teas and herbs that the Sodan were giving him to heal his wound - especially those they were placing directly on the wound.

I all, I enjoyed this episode and hopefully will seem more Mitchell-based epsiodes to "fill out" his character even more. I do believe Mitchell is learning that he does need to be careful about what one does say, but I don't think any of the other members are taking anything that Mitchell might say about them to heart. As far as Mitchell not really trusting the intel from the Jaffa - well O'Neill did not really trust the Tokra that much. O'Neill did trust some of the Tokra, but not as a whole.

Finally to address the issue of Mitchell's ability to command SG-1. First off (and to me most important) Mitchell was given command by the General in charge of the SGC. As long as support from the commander of the SGC remains, then Mitchell has every right to be the commander. Should the General decide that Mitchell is not "cutting it" as commander and Carter would be better - fine. I doubt that would happen, but you never know. Personally, I don't think in the long term Mitchell would have a big problem with this.

The other thing to consider is that Carter basically quit the SG1 and took another assignment. IF she had remained in charge of SG1, then I would agree that Mitchell should not be in command, but the fact is it did not happen.

As far as what he brings to the team (besides his rank, experience in both combat and leadership) is that his presence allows the others to do what they do best without the concerns of leadership. Carter can be the scientist that she is best at, Daniel can be the liguist/archaeologist and Teal'c - well Teal'c can be Teal'c :). Should Mitchell "tap" this resource and learn - YES. The one thing that "Babylon" did show was that Mitchell is capable of learning and using new methods. Hopefully the TPTB take advantage of this fact.

As far as the rest of the episode, what can I say different other that what already has been said. I do think that the Sodan (IMO) would make a great allie against the Ori - once you past all the "isolationist" ideas.

OK, these are my opinions - thanks for reading

Bruce

lily
September 12th, 2005, 07:06 AM
I posted a general comment (http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=4495233&postcount=120) last Saturday after watching this epi once. Now that I watched it twice, I wanted to add something more especific.



- I loved the team interaction at the beginning. And I especially loved Cameron's imitation of Teal'c when he said "The warriors of the Sodan exist, colonel Mitchell. I am certain of it". I can picture Teal'c saying that line. LOL

- Sam mentions an SG-22 when she requests back up... I don't remember a 20-something SG team being mentioned before. I wonder how many SG teams are currently active in canon...

- I love the village set

- shirtless Cameron waking up on that bed was hot <cough, shallow moment here, cough>

- the Sodan having Ancient technology is very interesting, and it seems like something that will be explored in future episodes. At least I hope so.

- the scene at the observation room. Daniel saying (about Lexa Doig, aka Dr Lam): "Well, she's very good". Hehehe.

- I liked the Cameron/Jolan scenes a lot.

- Nice to see some Landry/Lam interaction. Liked the scene at the infirmary a lot

- I liked the Cameron/Lord Haikon interaction.

- The fight scenes were great, and more so knowing that Ben did the stunts himself. Kudos to him. Great job!

- the kids were cute :)

- Another great moment was when Mitchell had to run and he kept bumping on invisible barriers and getting knocked out. Poor guy. Talking about whumping! BTW, nicely done, it really looked as if he was bumping into those invisible things.

- Cameron mentions six weeks Air Force training at Fort Benning. It would be nice if some fanfic writers out there picked this up and wrote a fic about that <hint, hint>

- Nice to see Sam mentioning Dr. Lee. I like Dr Lee a lot.

- Nice to see Sam and Daniel talking about spending months searching for their people in the past and not leaving a man behind before.


I haven't read all the posts here (too many to catch up!), but I read some stuff here and there.

What I'm going to add here is of course my humble opinion and point of view, and no offense is intended.

There're very very few sci fi shows and movies I stand watching, and only two sci fi shows I actually love (both SG-1 and Atlantis, obviously). Never watched more than 5 or 10 minutes of Star Trek, neither the original series nor the spin-offs. I'm not a Sci Fi fan at all. So I never get the Star Trek references :p The only ones I got in the whole 9 years were the one about Jack wanting to name the Prometheus "Enterprise", and Jacob in "Tangent" telling Daniel "Beam them up? What I am? Scotty?" Even I got those! LOL

I haven't seen "The last Samurai" either, but a friend of mine who saw that movie and already watched Babylon twice, told me that she didn't think they were similar... As I said, I haven't seen the movie, so I can't comment on similarities.

What I *can* say is that even if that's true, so what? TPTB have always said in previous seasons' audio commentaries and some interviews that they made this or that as a tribute to this or that. For example, that scene with Jack and Sam flying in a remake of a Star Wars scene in the 1st movie (the only one I saw and liked, I think now it's called Episode IV or whatever). They never tried to concealed it. It's their tribute, their way of paying homage to all those shows and movies they like. If this is another case of homage, kudos to them. I don't mind. I think they do a fantastic job.

I've read complaints about the lack of originality in stargate scripts. Of course, everybody's welcome to has his/her opinion, and I respect them, but I respectfully disagree on this matter.
Sometimes, just because a plot has something in common with other stories, it doesn't mean it's a rippoff, or that it lacks of originality on its own. Lots of stories are different from each other, even if they have a common background. So, just because someone did a movie based on pilots in WWII (just to put an example), does that mean that any other movie based on pilots in WWII will be a copy/rippoff and will lack of originality? I don't think so. They could have certain things in common because of the subject in common, but that wouldn't necessarily mean they lack of originality. The same can be said of other genres and plots in general, including comedy, suspense, action, adventure, sci fi, etc. It happens in all genres. But IMHO just because some aspects of a plot are similar and look familiar, it doesn't mean that they're the same. Even if they have some stuff in common, there'll always be some aspects that make them different.

I've read some complaints about TPTB in Stargate repeating themselves with a remake of old stargate scripts, scripts they already used in past seasons (for example, the trial thing in "Cor'ai" versus the one in "The powers that be". I disagree. Even if we do have the trial concept in common, I still think "The powers that be" is original, and it's not a copy of Co'rai or any other episode. Just because there's a trial in both it doesn't make it less original. It has its own twists. Hey, "Law & Order" has trials too and it has nothing to do neither with "Cor'ai" nor with "The powers that be". :p

Once again, this is just my point of view. Everybody's welcome to disagree in a nice way :)

Tok'Ra Hostess
September 12th, 2005, 07:34 AM
Well this was a lacklustre episode, for me.

The Sodan lived in a beautiful environment, I will say that much, but I didn't get any sense of regret at the loss of their culture. Too bad, too, because it looks like it was a cool culture. I would have liked to have seen the Priors actually interfere in some aspect of the Sodan culture, to give that Jaffa guy a tangible reason to believe Mitchel.

I also couldn't connect with Cameron 'I've been close to death before' Mitchel. That ranks right up there with Vala 'You know nothing about me' Mal Duran.

Lam and Landry are starting to get on my nerves. I felt that Sam was present in body but absent in spirit, though I appreciated that Daniel actually did get to do some acting, and Teal'c as well.

All in all, a forgetable episode, for this fan. :(

kirmit
September 12th, 2005, 08:52 AM
I really liked the black, made SG-1 look like the elite team while all the others wore green. The blue looks better aswell green is out blue is in.

FeloniousMonk
September 12th, 2005, 09:18 AM
you seem to be forgetting that mitchell was a pilot how often do you think pilots fire p90s
To even be allowed to carry the weapon while on duty he'd have to be qualified on it. Even without qualifying, any trained solider, sailor, marine, or airman (at least one trained well enough to reach any kind of advanced rank) should know how to properly aim and fire his weapon.

I know it's not a big deal but little things like that ruin scenes for me. Other than that it wasn't a memorable episode. It was very predictable and didn't really do anything to expand on the characters, in my opinion.

Albion
September 12th, 2005, 09:51 AM
The real question ought to be "what was with the black while offworld?"

Isn't that something to do with new Air Force uniforms coming onstream and being reflected in the show? I seem to recall reading something of the sort in an interview a few months back. That they would have new uniforms because the AF is switching to new uniforms.

I remember it because when I saw the publicity shots for this season I was disappointed that this was another shift away from the 'reality' of the show making sure the AF details were correct and into just 'snazzy uniforms that look good on a SF show but don't have anything to do with the real thing'. So I was both surprised and relieved when I read the interview and realised it was in fact very much connected to the real thing. Or...so they said. :D

Sorry, that's all the details I can remember though.

Albion :)

Droops
September 12th, 2005, 11:18 AM
As a 'getting to know Mitchell' episode, it was fine.

Had some plot holes here and there, small ones but enough for me to notice that it was mildly irritating at the end.

Otherwise, it wasn't horrible and I had some smiles through it. Can't ask for much more.

the_cadpig
September 12th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by bmicales
2) Mitchell is firing the P90 correctly - although maybe not in a mode that most others are accustomed to see. For a direct link, see the site: P90 Promotional Video (This is not a direct link to the video, go to the bottom of the page, second to last line has a direct link). Time points showing various positions:
3:17 - lying down - sighted
4:26 - stiff arm
5:18 (?) this looks more posed to show a feature - hip
6:24 - just below chest height (the position Mitchell appeared to be using)
also view Season 6 Allegiance (at the end) - O'Neill is firing his P90 from just below chest height.

Thanks b. I'm getting tired of all this nitpicking of procedure when it's obvious some of the nitpickers aren't all that knowledgable about what it is they're nitpicking.

Just sayin...

GhostPoet
September 12th, 2005, 11:53 AM
Man...I am SHOCKED some people didn't like this episode. I thought it was one of the better episodes of the season??

Busterfan
September 12th, 2005, 12:00 PM
It was my favorite episode so far this season. I can understand some of the criticism - like that it was too similar to The Last Samurai, which I never saw. But other than that, this ep was a lot of fun, and I really enjoyed seeing Mitchell be the focus of a whole ep. Ben has created such a likeable character that I can't imagine anyone changing the channel while he's on screen. Some people were bored? Were we watching the same ep? I wasn't bored at all, even when we were back at SGC.

Lida
September 12th, 2005, 12:16 PM
It was my favorite episode so far this season. I can understand some of the criticism - like that it was too similar to The Last Samurai, which I never saw. But other than that, this ep was a lot of fun, and I really enjoyed seeing Mitchell be the focus of a whole ep. Ben has created such a likeable character that I can't imagine anyone changing the channel while he's on screen. Some people were bored? Were we watching the same ep? I wasn't bored at all, even when we were back at SGC.

You're surprised? Not me.....it's obvious that no matter what the writers write, or how the actors portray their characters, not everyone is EVER going to agree.

I liked Babylon. I think tptb need to let Ben Browder ad lib more, but I suppose they are concerned everyone will then scream "it's John Crichton". Phew...BB has a great sense of humor, is a fantastic actor and is not hard on the eyes. :) Yes, RDA is gone (gasp, yes, it's true) and Cam is the new guy......why don't you cut him some slack? So far, I like the character, I'd just like to see more of him being him.

The one thing I can't figure out is, if people don't like SG-1 anymore, why are they here, posting? :rolleyes:

And I agree with a former poster, this nitpicking is a joke. You want to nitpick.....get on the medical consultants too, because an Infectious disease specialist, from the CDC, as Dr. Lam is supposed to be, would NOT be operating, period. That's why we have surgeons, who go through long residency training...to learn how to operate, just like Lam trained supposedly trained in Infectious diseases.

Rant over, switching you back to your normal channel....

FeloniousMonk
September 12th, 2005, 01:49 PM
Thanks b. I'm getting tired of all this nitpicking of procedure when it's obvious some of the nitpickers aren't all that knowledgable about what it is they're nitpicking.

Just sayin...
I'm sorry but where did you learn to shoot a P90 from the hip?

paul
September 12th, 2005, 02:03 PM
this may have been said , didn't read all 11 pages . their staffs were different and they learnt how to make cloaks from ancient writings so could it be possible that they made their staffs the same way and then this may be proof that staffs are ancient weapons.

Ne'eta
September 12th, 2005, 02:04 PM
i fell kind of alone i liked this ep nothing impront happened i guess but i still found it insething

see i agree with Anubis, sorry i'm new to this, dunno if its public or private, this episode was like the norm. ep. with no big bangs in the sky or without an epidemic break out, they were just on a simple mission and got a 'little' sidetracked which eventually lead to being the focus of the mission (saving Cam and trying to show the truth about the Orii) :D

bmicales
September 12th, 2005, 04:22 PM
I'm sorry but where did you learn to shoot a P90 from the hip?

If you read my orginial post, you will see that I said that the shooting from the hip appeared to be posed (to highlight a feature of the weapon)! In fact there was no shooting, unlike what is seen with the other positions that are in the video.


Bruce

Crichton
September 12th, 2005, 04:44 PM
The best part about this episode was that Teal'c actually had some lines man!!! Geez, I missed the guy.

Shep'sSocks
September 12th, 2005, 06:17 PM
The best part about this episode was that Teal'c actually had some lines man!!! Geez, I missed the guy.

That was nice although I am so over the Jaffa storyline. I find it terribly dull.

FeloniousMonk
September 12th, 2005, 08:08 PM
If you read my orginial post, you will see that I said that the shooting from the hip appeared to be posed (to highlight a feature of the weapon)! In fact there was no shooting, unlike what is seen with the other positions that are in the video.


Bruce
Indeed. It was a cool video, by the way. Like I said, it was never a big deal...just little nitpicky things that bug me. :p If not for the typical attention to detail the show usually displays I probably wouldn't have brought it up. ;)

DigiFluid
September 12th, 2005, 09:27 PM
So they took the Jaffa guy back to the SGC, removed his dying/dead symbiote, and put him on tretonin.

Then he goes back through the gate emptyhanded. How exactly does he expect to survive?

Giantevilhead
September 12th, 2005, 09:32 PM
The Sodan will get him another symbiote

Baz
September 13th, 2005, 01:04 AM
The Sodan will get him another symbiote

In which episode has it ever said that once you are on tritonin that you can stop taking it and replace it with another symbiote?

Dromag67
September 13th, 2005, 01:14 AM
In which episode has it ever said that once you are on tritonin that you can stop taking it and replace it with another symbiote?
Why wouldn't you be able too.

If a symbiote can stop the ancient disease then why not work on taking the body back from tretonin?

AGateFan
September 13th, 2005, 02:01 AM
I think when one of the jaffa women was dieing because of a tretonin "reaction" Dr Frasier was going to put the symbiot back but the Jaffa woman didnt let her until it was "too late"... So that sort of implies that you can go back to symbiot if you want, but I dont think it has been shown conclusively one way or the other, the jaffa woman may have died either way.

ellenrose
September 13th, 2005, 11:00 AM
This is my first post on Gateworld but have been lurking for ages. I just wanted to congratulate the creative team for the season so far and for gradually introducing Mitchell to the show. I like the relatively subtle way he has been written into the show and how the others have started to accept him.

I enjoyed Babylon for several reasons - some thunking and some creative. The Thunk reasons are no doubt obvious for those other fans of Ben Browder - thanks Ben ;) . One minor critcism I think most men would have wandered over to that window BEFORE putting on that shirt - it was a nice warm day. :D

Creatively I enjoyed the simple take on this story of capture, winning over the enemy and then twisting the death scene. I must confess that I fell asleep during the Cruise version of the Last Samarai so have no comment re comparisons plus have no memory of seeing the original Trek ep so was totally surprised by the twist at the end. It has been fun to read other poster's comments on the comparison to these other stories.

I did like the subtle style Mitchell used to win over his opponent. Nice physical performance by both actors in the training scenes.The little scene introducing the next evil Prior was well done. The scenes at SGC emphasized how important Mitchell has become to them - in spite of the ongoing political intrigues from TPTB in government. Sam immediately took charge when Mitchell disappeared - nice touch. I see the team is together - just not the same as with Jack around.

I found Dr Lam's attitude quite realistic for an exhausted, stressed out Doctor just finishing major surgery. I am not sure how she learned to operate on aliens - but then Lee was paralyzed so she had to move in without much support.

Lots introduced here that will be coming back to visit both Mitchell and the rest of the team later I imagine.

Great thread so far about the episode - thanks to all the others posting so far.

GhostPoet
September 13th, 2005, 11:46 AM
That was nice although I am so over the Jaffa storyline. I find it terribly dull.

you and I deffinetly differ in opinions here. :) This Jaffa storyline has been something i've been waiting for since Season 8 :)

THE BIG UNIT
September 13th, 2005, 03:44 PM
I thought this episode was a good one, not great by any means but good. It did well for Mitchell's character, and i have always liked the Jaffa Storyline.

I immediately saw this is Stargate The Last Samurai, but then again, this concept was definately made before the last Samurai (though that's likely where TPTB got it from). Either way it has always been a concept i have really enjoyed, the only minus is that sam could have been in it more, maybe show her working on the Teleportation device or the cloaks, which will most likely come into play in future episodes.

Either Way Good Episode - 7/10

the fifth man
September 13th, 2005, 09:46 PM
I know they've never stated you couldn't go back to having a symbiote. Its just that no one has wanted to until now, being "free" from the goa'uld is afterall most Jaffa's goal.

StarzSkyMoon
September 13th, 2005, 10:19 PM
Now that i am cut off from the world (aka my tv.) It takes me awhile to see the episodes, so before you say anything yes i realize im a little slow on the uptake.

The only comment i have to make is that, this movie oddly reminded me of "The Last Samurai, and after reading the comment above me i realize im not the only person who thought so.

I midly enjoyed, though nothing stood out to me as profound, articulate, character developing...but it was better than doing calc homework. ;)

:cool: Lizbeth

LMichelle
September 14th, 2005, 09:09 AM
Daniel in a black bandanna. Oh. Yeah. The highlight of the episode for me. It pleases me that he color coordinates his bandannas to his uniforms. :)

Mitchell in a backwards cap chewing gum and imitating Teal'c. LOL!

I'm thinking the warriors of the Sodan have carpal tunnel because they're wearing those wrist splints, right? Perhaps they should cut back on the training just a tad.

Ben does whumped pretty well. Poor Mitchell. I think they kind of rushed the ending a bit.

William B. Davis as a Prior. Someone please find the X-Files joke in there cause it's eluded me so far.

Lisa Michelle

Wandering Tamer
September 14th, 2005, 11:51 AM
Besides, the the only illeffect we've been told of is that is perminant surpresses one immune system. If you lose it when you mature anyway, then there's no reason a symbiot couldn't handle the job again.

ChillinTheMost
September 14th, 2005, 02:14 PM
I'm still reading this thread and it doesn't look like I'll catch up before the next episode airs, so for those keeping track, I loved it! I would have liked it better if Mitchell had more interaction with the team this early in his "introduction", but I loved it anyway.

PrimalAscended
September 14th, 2005, 06:14 PM
<I haven't had chance to read all the thread so I apologise for any rehashing of previous posters thoughts>

Ok......only just seen the episode and now I wish I hadn't........it needs to be thrown into the "kawoosh" next time the gate opens and sent to oblivion.

Oh alright......I liked the Sodan's little baby staff weapons but otherwise it seemed just a "filler" episode to me. What is it with Jaffa and having honour fights in villages anyway?? And yet another gravelly voiced Jaffa leader!!

I love Stargate as much as the next GateWorlder but I was disappointed by this episode so much. The Sodan are a great concept but seemingly wasted in this ep, I hope they do come back but not as Ori worshipping villians.......they are worth more than that. But a new (well, very very old actually) Goa'uld to add to the list.......Ishkur, a Sumerian storm god!

Nice to see a bit more of Mitchell though, its about time he got a bit more development.......but chewing gum and drawling on??? BB can do better. And the "that's what I'm talkin' 'bout" line is getting tired now!!

Jeez......I've never been so negative on here before, what's this ep done to me??!!!!!!!

Lets hope that the next couple of episodes rock and make me forget about this one. ;)

Traveler Enroute1
September 14th, 2005, 06:50 PM
The Sodan will get him another symbiote

That bothers me. When there were System Lords with loyal Jaffa, the Sodan had enemies to exploit for replacement symbiotes. Now? They would have to attack mostly peaceful Jaffa. Would they?

The Ori presence, now that I think on it, makes these isolated Jaffa more inclined to see other Jaffa ("non-believers") as lesser and therefore to be destroyed. Well, here's a symbiote...? Will the Ori want them dependent on anything other than their largess? (They could cure the Jaffa of symbiote dependency, but just as easily take the cure back, as they did in Origin.) Hard to say whether Gerak and the injured Sodan brother look down on newly freed Jaffa because of the Ori or because they were so long in rising up to gain their freedom. In any case, at least some of the Sodan will find preying on other Jaffa distasteful now, be it Ori or Gerak's leadership. Interesting plot layout.

Hmm. Will the new rebels make an alliance with the remainder of the Tok'Ra? (I think someone said that already, sorry I can't give props.)

Just sayin'.

JudeMorrigan
September 14th, 2005, 08:12 PM
So...wait...these Jaffa learned how to BUILD Ancient technology. Thousands of years ago.... and still lived in huts...Err..... I find this immensly implausible. In order to build such incredibly advanced technology, you'd need a great deal of stuff that they just didn't have! Unless the Ancients had Replicators (a la Star Trek) and they just pushed a few buttons.

At first, I had something of the same thought, but thinking about it, I'm not sure I agree within the Stargate universe. Namely, I watched the episode "The Nox" tonight and it struck me that to the uninformed viewer, the Nox appear to have an even lower level of living than the Sodan, and they're advanced enough to have been allies with the Ancients and the Asgard. And I'll also note that the Sodan have the ability to make things (or themselves at the very least) invisible, as the Nox do. It doesn't seem wholly inconceivable to me that the Sodan might have industry that they simply didn't let Mitchell see. Of course, one might think that the guy who trained Mitchell might have mentioned that to him, but then again, who know?

Simhavaktra
September 14th, 2005, 08:17 PM
Just my unhappy reactions to Babylon...


I’m wondering when those outstanding leadership skills of Mitchell’s are going to put in a visible appearance. Babylon was supposed to be a ‘Mitchell’ show, and, indeed, the show was pretty much Mitchell’s Martial Arts, with a few bits of everyone else thrown in as spacers between the Mitchell segments. But, after Babylon, I’m still not seeing leadership in Mitchell. I still have that urge to swat the boy and send him off to get the green scrubbed off him and take some remedial military training. :rolleyes:

In the beginning of the ep, we get to see Mitchell, who wanted to be on SG-1 to learn from the best, acting like he’s just along for the ride, and this whole mission isn’t any of his concern, or any reason for him to be concerned. He appears to be chomping gum. He’s strolling along like he hasn’t a care in the world, not watching his surroundings and keeping alert like he’s under orders, on a mission and on another planet. He’s talking when other people are trying to listen for unexpected sounds. He’s shooting his gun from the hip like an Action Adventure Hero™ instead of holding it and firing it like a trained US Air Force airman. In short, he’s an amateur, and he reminds me of that hoary old plot device, the civilian who gets to ride along with the police/military, and, of course, ends up in trouble thereby.

Of course, at that point in the plot, Mitchell IS a plot device, a clumsy plot device that’s trying to get itself captured so the ‘real story’ can begin. My objection is that he’s so obviously a plot device. After all the ballyhoo, self-congratulation, hype, quotes, interviews, and advertising to which TPTB subjected the fanbase and the general Sci Fi viewer/reader community upon signing Ben Browder to appear in Stargate, couldn’t they have at least done him the courtesy of writing and presenting his character a little better? Make him look more like a US Air Force officer and professional warrior instead of like an amateur who happened to fit the costume?

Throughout most of this ep I couldn’t decide if I felt more like I was watching a stunted episode of Kung Fu, outtakes of The Last Samurai, or just a flashback from Highlander that had been deleted for cause during editing. The village of the Oriental farmers under the rule of the Sodan was visually lovely, but – lacking in imagination and forethought in concept and execution. Why do Oriental extras always seem to be the proper inhabitants for martial arts themed locales? Is there some attitude in television production that says the audience won’t understand we’re talking martial arts unless we do it in an Oriental setting? In previous seasons I had been pleased that Bra’tac could teach Teal’c Jaffa martial arts without a single Jaffa or human of Oriental descent traipsing through the scenes, and Teal’c could teach Krista without invoking the ‘Martial Arts are an Oriental Thing’ stereotype. It’s rare to see one without the other on episodic television, and I was most pleased with Stargate for bucking that cliché. But, there it was in Babylon: the lordly Samurai Sodan and their Oriental Agrarian Workforce and probable bamboo artifact fabricators, living in their cute settlement based on feudal Japan. One would think, without the Goa’uld to stultify their development, and with the freedom to travel long distances afforded by the Stargate network and the Ancient/Alteran transporter technology, their society would have developed trading networks, educational (even if just in the martial arts) opportunities, widespread cultural interactions, maybe even tourism , and thus depart, quite visibly, from the feudal template, but, nope. It’s just feudal Japan on another planet, Jaffa Samurai and Oriental women and kids doing the agricultural labor and toting baskets through the town square. Gods. If all Jaffa are this dull of imagination and developmentally challenged at the societal level, it bodes ill for the Free Jaffa Nation, doesn’t it?

And, to add to the lack of fun, the martial arts sequences in the ep were lame, lame in conception, dull of dialogue, and filmed with a firm lack of creativity. In far less than 2 weeks, Mitchell was supposedly well enough healed of an infected staff-weapon-blast wound to do all that running and staff work and pontificating – but it never occurred to him that this medicine and medical care he was receiving might be of value, or at least of interest, to Earth, and he might therefore bring up the subject? Especially when the staff wound was apparently healing so well and the cuts on his face weren’t healing at all. Meanwhile, the blades of those cran… igge? tuh? berry? (sorry, I seem to have a Jack O’Neill-style mental block going with the names and terms in this ep) whatever staffs are laughable. All those notches and multiple blades will do nothing but catch on clothing and accoutrements and other weapons and bones, and the weapon is going to get stuck, and probably yanked out of the user’s hands, no matter how putatively cool it looks. Meanwhile, what’s-his-name (as I said, Jack O’Neill block with the names and terms in this ep!) appears to be teaching Mitchell only one form/kata/exercise. This will not be a useful education in the fighting arts if Mitchell’s future opponent doesn’t use attacks that call for just those specific counters Mitchell is learning in that form. Of course, since what’s-his-name will be that future opponent, this might be calculated, on his part, and maybe a good move from his point of view, but Mitchell is supposed to be a trained warrior, graduate of the Air Force Academy, seasoned officer and all that good stuff – shouldn’t he catch on that there has to be more to this staff fighting than what’s-his-name is trying to pound into him? Apparently not. Maybe Mitchell’s just too busy trying to counter-proselytize the Sodan about the Orii to be able to apply himself to the martial arts, despite the impending duel to the (his) death. Or maybe not. Even Mitchell sounded like he was just going through the motions saying all that to his sensei. Considering how dull the lines are, maybe that’s a natural reaction. Mitchell himself, dare I say it, bored me in Babylon. The sparring sessions in the Sodan scenes were boring too – the director and fight arranger failed to take the opportunity to film the staff sparring as more than just thwacking and poking and dialogue. Instead of letting the fighting itself reveal more about the characters, the dialogue had to do that – execute the same series of moves and counters in the same way yet again, break, get a drink, and recite more dialogue. Mitchell didn’t pick up spare moves that what’s-his-name made, thus demonstrating how fast he learns, nor try more than one move that what’s-his-name didn’t teach him to show the audience that he has skills in hand to hand combat beyond the rough and tumble rolling around he demonstrated in the opening, which might have reassured me a little that Mitchell has the skills in ground/infantry operations/combat that an SG team leader needs. He’s still looking like he’s in ‘me ace fighter pilot, you – by which I mean everybody and everything else – not’ mode to me. And what was that thing about Airborne training? USAF pilots learn to parachute as part of their own training, and a primary skill of flying an aircraft doesn’t immediately spring to mind as a logical reason that someone would train as a fighter who specializes in arriving at battles by jumping out of aircraft, nor that the SGC would need military paratroopers for Gate teams. :rolleyes:

Then again, Sam Carter is the only military character in this whole ep who actually comes across as a professional military officer, running a mission and doing her job, and that despite her being in the ep for such a short time that one began amusing oneself with designs for rationing cards for the apparent Carter conservation going on in the ep. Mitchell plays the happy-to-be-oblivious day hiker trekking through the woods and the guy from a culture we know stuck in a tough situation by and with a culture we don’t know, and follows up by mixing his branches of service. Landry is sounding like a petulant executive who doesn’t want to be dinged on his monthly profit target when he’s talking about declaring Mitchell MIA, and just plain petulant dealing with Lam. (What happened to the writing that could give Hammond very similar lines and leave the impression that come hell or high water the SGC was going to make the deadline and get their guy back, and the general was going to be right in there making it happen, if only by stalling the suits as long as possible so the resident geniuses could get the job done? Hammond came off as concerned and involved and committed to his people – Landry comes off as committed to looking good as he makes his report at the quarterly meeting.) And Dr. Lam… civilian or not, could someone just send a memo to TPTB bringing up the possibility that the way Landry and Lam have been acting may be one of the reasons that a daughter, in the service or not, wouldn’t be allowed to serve under her father’s command in such a capacity in the real military, because it affects the parties’ working relationship and job performance when they’re at odds? And then the act-like-professionals Fairy Godmother could go ahead and magic-wand some sense into the general and doctor both? Or General Hammond could give both of them a talking to? The kind of carrying on between purported professionals that these two have shown so far is painful to watch, embarrassing to think of happening in a top military command, and disrespectful of the responsible positions the two characters portray. And it leads me to wonder what’s become of the Air Force consultant, and what did he, or she, think of the commanding general and his daughter and their unprofessional behavior toward each other in this and preceding eps this season?

The ending of this ep only helped me dislike it. As soon as what’s-his-name showed up to tend Mitchell’s wound, and mentioned the duel, I knew he was going to be Mitchell’s opponent. (Hmm. Maybe he was teaching Mitchell to telegraph his blows????) And the ‘alien-curare’, faking the reluctantly transgressor’s death angle was equally and thoroughly not a surprise. Did makes me wonder how committed the stickler Sodan sensei really is to the traditions of his people if he’d throw a ritual combat that’s such a long standing part of those traditions, though. The most potentially dramatic scene of the ep – when the brothers are reunited, each knowing what he’s done to get to that point, and each disappointed in what his brother has done – wasn’t even in the ep.

Maybe the SGC could run Mitchell through the courses a few times at that off-world training center mentioned in Proving Ground before the next ep? Please??

Shep'sSocks
September 14th, 2005, 09:52 PM
I'm wondering how many of those who are criticising Mitchell's military expertise are in the military or have experience of same?

vikingjedi
September 15th, 2005, 02:53 AM
Decent ripoff of the movie "The Last Samurai".

- Kills one of the warriors in self defense? Check

- Taken away to their village? Check

- Has to prove himself to gain honor? Check

- Learns to use a new weapon? Check

- Gets beaten often while learning? Check

- Eventually gets better and ties the teacher? Check

- Leaves after he has made a friend? Check

:rolleyes:

PrimalAscended
September 15th, 2005, 08:02 AM
I know alot of people have qualms about military stuff in the show, like how to shoot a gun, Sam calling Mitchell Cam etc..........I've never been involved in the military so it don't bother me. However, medical inaccuracies can be annoying to me (like Xrays viewed upside down, or CPR and defibrillation performed on a clothed patient) and this week Lam threw one up that I gotta share. In "The Powers That Be" she says her speciality is infectious disease and she's worked with the CDC, yet in this ep she is performing major surgery for over 9 hours on the captured Sodan!!! This woman must be a medical wunderkind..........does the SGC not have a medical staff with varying specialities???

Ok, I know its not a major thing but hey, just wanted to point it out :D

scifiannie
September 15th, 2005, 08:24 AM
Maybe Mitchell’s just too busy trying to counter-proselytize the Sodan about the Orii to be able to apply himself to the martial arts, despite the impending duel to the (his) death.

I thought this was heroic of him. His mind was more on his mission--gathering allies--than on his own fate. The show wasn't about martial arts, it was about the story arc of saving the world from the Ori.

I know you didn't like the ep but I did, despite its flaws (and they were legion). But it gave us more of Mitchell, which can't be bad. I don't like the way Cooper/Wright are handling his character, but anything that gives him more screen time is worth supporting.

Wandering Tamer
September 15th, 2005, 10:25 AM
Decent ripoff of the movie "The Last Samurai".

- Kills one of the warriors in self defense? Check

- Taken away to their village? Check

- Has to prove himself to gain honor? Check

- Learns to use a new weapon? Check

- Gets beaten often while learning? Check

- Eventually gets better and ties the teacher? Check

- Leaves after he has made a friend? Check

:rolleyes:

Is there a point beyond that? I mean, there's a case to be made tthe "last samurai" took a lot of points from "Dances with wolves."

And you're wrong with the Has to Prove Himself to Gain Honor, thing. He was being trained so he could be killed. That's all. It wasn't about him gaining honor. And as for the Gets beaten often while learning, I'd love to see someone learn a new fighting style and not get beaten when learning. And he didn't tie the teacher, he would have lost horribly in a real fight. They even say that.

deSaintphalle
September 15th, 2005, 12:39 PM
That was nice although I am so over the Jaffa storyline. I find it terribly dull.

Well, its all new to me and I just can't get enough of it -- or perhaps just Teal'c.

I am looking forward to a standoff between Gerak and Lord Haikon. I certainly hope they get to face each other in a coming episode.

DarkQuee1
September 15th, 2005, 03:00 PM
What a bleh episode. Loaded with logic flaws--for one: if the Sodan were known about, how come the System Lords never came looking for them?; re-hashes of other shows, movies (both of which have been remarked upon. And acknowledging the re-use--such as Mitchell's reference to Bones--doesn't make it any less a bore or a rip-off); cliched predictability; and ever-diminishing characters.

What are we supposed to make of Mitchell? Why the heck would they put this man in charge of a field team? He shows yet again that he has absolutely no field experience, knows nothing of recon, stealth, tactics--the list goes on. At the beginning, he could have been on a picnic for all the absence of any indication that he had any idea that they were on a dangerous mission in potentially enemy territory. Yep, he's just the guy I'd want leading me on an Away mission.

Not to mention his behavior toward Teal'c during the opening scene. Mitchell has *no* knowledge of any of this stuff, so why not diss the person on the team with the *most* knowledge about the Jaffa? If I were TEal'c, I would have handed in my SG1 patch as soon as I got back to the SGC; I can't see why TEal'c would want to work with him. (IIRC correctly, Jack virtually never walked second in the group: he was either in the lead, or he was last watching the six. Second is actually a protected position.)

I couldn't help but feel--as they couldn't have Mitchell have the same relationship with TEal'c that Jack did without getting called on it--that a driving force behind this ep was the desire to set up a Jack-Teal'c relationship between Mitchell and the Jaffa (who's name has totally gone walkabout). Notice that this Jaffa actually does *exactly* the same thing that Teal'c did: decide to help a Tau'ri, turning against his leader, in order to "free" his people.


so far, Mitchell has brought nothing to the table except his grandmother. He has not demonstrated a single skill or talent that the team actually needed.

I guess it shows in other ways: no one on the base seemed particularly upset or distraught at his absence. Yes, they would keep trying to get information on his whereabouts, but it seemed to be done more with a shrug than with any genuine concern or liking.

As for the rest of the ep: talk about predictable. Did anyone not know how that his teacher would be his opponent? Or how the situation would turn out?

This season, TPTB seem to be going for tell, not show. We had to have Lam's father stand around telling us that she's the best (apparently she's a frigging genius, since she specializes in infectious diseases but also does world-class surgery). In seven years, did anyone have to tell us how good Janet Fraiser was? Or did we just find out from the work we saw her do? And they still have to explain how the CO's daughter could be accepted as the CMO of the base.

Landry is becoming more of a problem. I didn't mind his gruffness. I do mind the fact that he really doesn't seem to want to do any of the scut work his job requires.

Logically speaking, I have a problem with the Sodan accepting the Ori as the manifestation of the Ancients who helped them. Maybe because you would think that would have noticed that, in 5000 years, the Ancients never showed up or insisted that the Sodan worship them. You would also think that a people who dumped the Goa'uld because they didn't want to be enslaved would be reluctant to jump right into ball and chain, even with the Ancients. The problem is, questions like these never even get raised, much less answered.

The worst thing is that the whole Ori thing is just the same false god stuff all over again, just on a grander scale. I thought this season was supposed to be something new and fresh. And "team". I'm still waiting for all three.

ping-pong
September 15th, 2005, 07:11 PM
[QUOTE=DarkQuee1]I couldn't help but feel--as they couldn't have Mitchell have the same relationship with TEal'c that Jack did without getting called on it--that a driving force behind this ep was the desire to set up a Jack-Teal'c relationship between Mitchell and the Jaffa (who's name has totally gone walkabout). Notice that this Jaffa actually does *exactly* the same thing that Teal'c did: decide to help a Tau'ri, turning against his leader, in order to "free" his people.
[QUOTE]

I noticed that too. However, Mitchell and this Jaffa in "Babylon" cannot even touch the way Jack and Teal'c first bonded in "Children of the Gods" when Teal'c fired on his fellow Jaffa and then threw his staff weapon to Jack and they both took out the Jaffas and freed the prisoners. That was one of the most unforgetable scenes ever in SG1's history of episodes!!

vikingjedi
September 15th, 2005, 11:54 PM
Is there a point beyond that? I mean, there's a case to be made tthe "last samurai" took a lot of points from "Dances with wolves."

And you're wrong with the Has to Prove Himself to Gain Honor, thing. He was being trained so he could be killed. That's all. It wasn't about him gaining honor. And as for the Gets beaten often while learning, I'd love to see someone learn a new fighting style and not get beaten when learning. And he didn't tie the teacher, he would have lost horribly in a real fight. They even say that.

I could be wrong about Mitchell having to gain honor. I was so bored with this episode it was hard for me to keep watching.

But he did tie his teacher in the training session just like Nathan Algren did in the Last Samurai. They even crossed weapons and came to a stop the same way.

Remember the asian children looking on watching Mitchell fail? Thats a direct ripoff of what happened when Algren was training too.

SG-25B11
September 16th, 2005, 12:18 AM
Predictability has always gone hand in hand with anything I've seen on television. Originality is also something I don't look for when watching television either.

Babylon presented to us plenty of new information that is important. More technology built by the Ancients was found. The Sodan's place in the history of the Jaffa was presented and also their possible future. Further capabilities of the Prior's staff was learned. All of this and more was in Babylon and also plenty of character development.

The members of SG-1 are the main characters, but they are not the only characters the show is about. The supporting characters are as important as the main characters. Babylon allowed us to learn more about the characters introduced this season.

From my point of view, every episode of Stargate SG-1 has been important to the series.

w1cket01
September 17th, 2005, 05:08 AM
I thought the episode was alright but they could have done more with the Sodan. I think should the writers put some effort into researching the diversity of human cultures. If they'd spend time fleshing out each faction's culture and creating in effect a path of historical developments for each group when they dream them up, they'd have a better show with much more to work with. They could be doing this already but it's not showing.

All you get is... 5000 years ago we fled and formed this community... 5000 years later.. we're here. Surely many things happened with the Sodan in that period of time. Warriors, poets, rulers, inventors, religions, or internal factions would have eventually arose. The writers seem to portray every culture as homogenous but even 'homogenous' societies have internal diversity.

Elite Anubis Guard
November 29th, 2005, 01:03 PM
This...this..this was fantastic. Now this is what I'm talking about. The Sudan are so cool, I loved this episode. The costume design for this was fantastic, their armour, that special robe that Haikon. The fighting was very cool, I love the choreography for the fights, very reminsent of The Warrior.

I loved the set design for this as well, that mix between hindu and what not. Although I do think it would have been better for the fight scene to have had a score.

The relationship between Mitchell and the Jaffa was really good, and did we all recognise those diddy staffs, have quaint. My favorite episode so far, loved Mitch.

discodiva
November 29th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Yep ...gotta agree....kept both mine and the other half's attention the whole time.....thoroughly enjoyed it...:D

Deeds xx

bcfc
November 29th, 2005, 02:43 PM
Classic Stargate


Good episode very watchable with some great costumes and Jaffa fighting Some more character building for Mitchall.


:) :D :) :D

Chaka's_Mum
November 29th, 2005, 11:39 PM
At last - an episode that focuses fully on Cam. Until now, he's generally seemed to be little more than a bit of scenery while Daniel and Vala indulged in their verbal scrapping.

Loved the fight scenes - kudos everyone involved. I wonder how much of the falling was done by BB, and how much by his double! Either way, it looked suitably ouch-worthy.:D

And, boy, don't those Priors get everywhere! They're like those Christmas Tree needles you're still picking out of the carpet in July - and just as annoying.

Stricken
November 30th, 2005, 03:59 AM
Great Episode, So far Season 9 is ranking highly on my list of best Seasons. The Sodan could be the new allies we are looking for to replace the absents Tokr'a who we havent seen since Season 7 (excluding Jacob) A good episode for building on BB's character who seems to have inherited the "humor" area of the team with his Teal'c impression which deffinatly needs more bass. This is a stepping stone for some great episodes to come I hope as the Sodan offer so many writing oppertunities. Overall a great Episode.

Babylon recieves a S.G.G rating of 8 out of 9 Chevrons
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ChillinTheMost
November 30th, 2005, 04:42 AM
At last - an episode that focuses fully on Cam. Until now, he's generally seemed to be little more than a bit of scenery while Daniel and Vala indulged in their verbal scrapping.

Loved the fight scenes - kudos everyone involved. I wonder how much of the falling was done by BB, and how much by his double! Either way, it looked suitably ouch-worthy.:D

And, boy, don't those Priors get everywhere! They're like those Christmas Tree needles you're still picking out of the carpet in July - and just as annoying.

Yea for more Mitchell!!!

As for Ben doing his own stunts:


"Over on the 'Babylon' location, Ben Browder continues to impress, insisting on performing his own stunts and taking a beating (quite literally) for his troubles."
(Executive producer Joseph Mallozzi, in a message at his GateWorld blog)

"Hee!" about the Christmas tree needles analogy.

Albion
November 30th, 2005, 05:58 AM
Well, the first time I saw this - on a small download - I lost interest before we were halfway through. Jaffa fighting among themselves episodes have never really interested me and Mitchell's ludicrous response to the ambush (standing up in full view of everyone shooting at him and firing back like something out of a John Wayne movie) irritated me so much it put me off the rest of it.

This time, I resolved to watch all the way through, just in case I'd missed something. I was really determined to try and find something to enjoy in it.

Didn't work.

First thing I thought was - "Well, someone's watched The Last Samurai. Ho hum." Oh, and Amok Time, too. We're used to SG1's writers ripping off other people's hard work and calling it a homage, of course, and for a time that was quite fun. When it was just a few lines or a scene here and there. But do they now truly have so few original ideas of their own for these characters that they have to rip off other people's work wholesale? And blatantly referencing the work they're ripping off ("Well done, Bones") just doesn't make it acceptable for me any more either. Admitting you're stealing doesn't make it not theft.

The second thing that really irritated me was that Carter was reduced to a bit part. I swear Lam had more screen time than she did. And I'm getting tired of her being pushed into the background.

And talking of Lam - I rather liked her in Avalon. But I'm afraid that her attitude to Landry is really beginning to tick me off. Okay, I get it. She and her father have a prickly relationship. But at work, he's her CO, for pity's sake! Her constant rudeness and insubordination when she's speaking to him is so unprofessional it really annoys me. I was half expecting him to slap her down last night and remind her that during office hours she needs to put her personal feelings aside and treat him with the respect a superior officer requires of a subordinate. If she can't be professional at work, then she should ship the hell out of dodge imo and go work somewhere else.

I will admit that the Jaffa fighting among themselves scenes weren't as boring as they've been in other Jaffa episodes and I rather enjoyed the relationship between Mitchell and his trainer. I did fast forward through a few bits though.

But mostly what struck me about this episode was that there were no surprises in it. It was unoriginal, derivative and just plain predictable.

William B Davis must have loved this gig, btw. Easy money!

Ah well...still hoping for better things in the second half of the season. Although my hopes grow fainter every day...

Albion :)

Madeleine
November 30th, 2005, 10:07 PM
Splendid to finally get more Cam. Best line: "Lucky IS good" :)

destructogal17
December 1st, 2005, 05:20 AM
One thing to say about this ep .....why did Daniel change his BDU's so often? lol
starting out off world - black
back to the sgc - green, then blue, then green again, then blue and finally back to green!
maybe he couldn't decide what color since cam wasn;t there to show him what color he shouldn't wear (as they just have to be different from each other!) lol

Are we ever going to see danny and cam wearing the same color BDUs?
luv n hugs
Mara
x x x

Jeffer
December 29th, 2005, 09:04 PM
an ok ep but through the whole thing i was thinking The Last Samurai

and as soon as the Jaffa said he had to fight another Jaffa you knew it was the one training him it always is

frellu2
December 30th, 2005, 09:28 AM
In the teaser, did anyone notice that Mitchell is the one that figures out that SG1 is being followed by the “invisible” Sodan warriors? Cam hangs back from the group and notices the branches in the trees are “moving” by themselves. He prevented the capture of his team at no small cost to himself.

ellenrose
January 1st, 2006, 08:49 AM
In the teaser, did anyone notice that Mitchell is the one that figures out that SG1 is being followed by the “invisible” Sodan warriors? Cam hangs back from the group and notices the branches in the trees are “moving” by themselves. He prevented the capture of his team at no small cost to himself.

Plus while being trained to go to his death he always manages to try to continue focusing on his mission. He tries many times to persuade Haikon of the peril of believing in the Ori. We see Mitchell as an honourable and brave man with excellent leadership skills even while facing death.

One aspect of Babylon that I like is the introduction of another Jaffa society that is isolated and free of enslavement for a long time. If the Sodan continue to be part of this season's arc it will be interesting to see how Teal'c and the council use this groups unique situation in helping create the new Jaffa society. The Sodan have much to teach others ( assuming they escape the Ori).