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GateWorld
April 27th, 2004, 09:58 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s4/402.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/402.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#0066BF"><B>THE OTHER SIDE</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 402</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
A warring alien race offers to exchange their advanced technology for Earth's help in defeating their enemy.

<B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s4/402.shtml">Visit the Episode Guide >></A></B></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Hostile
May 21st, 2004, 05:44 PM
Sorry, just wanted to get your attention with that title.

Ok, I know this should probably go in the Season Four forums, but I want to discuss this and, seriously, who the hell reads the Season Four forums? Nobody's gonna notice my post there. Anyway, on to the point.

Thread moved into episode discussion thread by Feli. Reason: it is a discussion about the episode The Other Side. It's also a very interesting discussion which will be noticed here just as much.

I just watched the episode The Other Side (http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s4/402.shtml). A great episode, IMO, with the right mix of comedy, drama and action. But that's not the point! My point relates to their reactions after discovering they were infact allying themselves with the "bad guys".

After discovering what was going on, Jack took it upon himself to not only shoot down a large number of Euronda's ships, and then crash his own into their base. Now OK, I think we'll agree that this was a great "yes! go you!" moment for all free-thinking people of earth, but still... Jack didn't just refuse to help the Eurondans defeat their enemy, he defeated them himself! Does anybody else have a problem with this? Interfering with the happenings of another planet and killing people (the ships were unmanned, but the kamikazi into their base resulted in the death of that blonde chick I'd taken a liking too).

OK, so they were racists, so lets pretend for one minute that their misguided political choices means they deserve such a violent execution: Jack then goes on to A) smash the crystal which contained the key to all of Euronda's amazing technology, B) kill the only man who could recreate that technology.

So not only did he go against Daniel's wishes and, instead of bringing them peace, poured fire on their gasoline, he also went against his own wishes and failed in their mission to retrieve valuable technology to defeat the Goa'uld with.

Anybody else feel this is wrong as hell?

petzke_42
May 21st, 2004, 07:10 PM
They weren't just racist, they were trying to commit genocide (if that is the right word...either way, you know what I mean). Still think they deserve to live?

stargate barbie
May 21st, 2004, 07:24 PM
genocide is the right term. the SGC does not have a "prime directive". jack is a military man from a black ops background and is trained almost specifically for that kind of work. the fact that he went against daniels wishes means nothing. daniel is not military and would not understand such a decision even on earth. even carter who is military seemed to have some trouble with part of what he did.
daniel would not have been able to carry out such a difficult decision, and thats why he's not in command of the team and jack is.

the nazi's made some pretty big advances in technology in their day too. would you consider the decision to neutralize the threat they posed (not to mention the atrocities they committed) to be secondary to the advances they made? if you had the choice between salvaging technology, that wasn't earned or developed by you and saving millions of lives, with the potential sacrifice of a fraction of that, which choice would you take. what is more valueable, human lives or a fancy microwave? :p

personally i think he did the only thing he could do, the only thing he knew how to do in such a situation. i'd probably do the same. part of it may have been instinct.

personally i think you're only upset because he killed the blonde, aren't ya? :P
if it makes you feel any better, PDL was the director of that episode and he killed of his own girlfriends character in it, and didn't have any problems with that.

and you could have posted this in the recliner of rage thread. :D it fits. (shameless push)

Hostile
May 22nd, 2004, 11:15 AM
the nazi's made some pretty big advances in technology in their day too. would you consider the decision to neutralize the threat they posed (not to mention the atrocities they committed) to be secondary to the advances they made? if you had the choice between salvaging technology, that wasn't earned or developed by you and saving millions of lives, with the potential sacrifice of a fraction of that, which choice would you take. what is more valueable, human lives or a fancy microwave? :p

Well, that depends. Will the fancy microwave save millions of lives on earth? Or, hey, lets say we let those humans live while taking the microwave creator hostage anyway. Surely that's a logical choice?

I still think Jack made a bad call. I'm a total Jackson-style bleeding heart, and I think those people deserved peace in spite of their prejudice. Morons need to be helped, not blown to bits.

We're agreed Jack did the right thing in working against them, i'm certain of that. But still, he also screwed earth over by missing out on a great chance to grab a flashy new microwave.

petzke_42
May 22nd, 2004, 11:22 AM
Well, that depends. Will the fancy microwave save millions of lives on earth? Or, hey, lets say we let those humans live while taking the microwave creator hostage anyway. Surely that's a logical choice?

I still think Jack made a bad call. I'm a total Jackson-style bleeding heart, and I think those people deserved peace in spite of their prejudice. Morons need to be helped, not blown to bits.

We're agreed Jack did the right thing in working against them, i'm certain of that. But still, he also screwed earth over by missing out on a great chance to grab a flashy new microwave.

People like that just dont change. They will pretty much always be like that, even if they appear to "change" on the outside. I'm not saying people can't learn and change, but they were willing to start a WAR, kill probably millions of the enemy, cause the deaths of their own, and still not see the errors of their ways.

Hostile
May 22nd, 2004, 12:35 PM
People like that just dont change. They will pretty much always be like that, even if they appear to "change" on the outside. I'm not saying people can't learn and change, but they were willing to start a WAR, kill probably millions of the enemy, cause the deaths of their own, and still not see the errors of their ways.

Of-course, yes, you're right. But chances are 99% of these guys were born into this life, and it isnt necessarily a life they're commited to. Perhaps they just hadn't had a chance to experience it any other way. Jack had these guys by the nutsack: he could have forced them into peace through their Heavy Water deal, and got all those flashy microwaves. Instead he killed them all and got nothing but a large body count on his conscience.

It's irritating me :(

Liebestraume
May 22nd, 2004, 02:44 PM
This episode left me slightly unsettled. I suppose not every moral dilemma could be tied in a neat package like Scorched Earth.


Instead he killed them all and got nothing but a large body count on his conscience.
Jack's sense of moral outrage undoubtedly played a large part in his decision-making. Although I agree Alar was a "bad guy," I am uncomfortable with the idea of Jack being the sole judge and jury of another life, however despicable it might have been. On the other hand, perhaps, his willingness to carry the burden (of making difficult choices) is precisely what affords everyone else the luxury in intellectual moralizing.


Will the fancy microwave save millions of lives on earth?
This is a very valid point. To re-use an example from up thread, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan made "explorations" in technology and medicine often via atrocious methods. Yet the Allies carefully preserved those discoveries, some of which would later aid the saving of lives. So knowledge, however nefariously obtained, could be used for goodness if in the proper hand.

A relevant question here, though, is if it was possible to acquire Eurondan technology without the aid of Alar. If he held the key, he would most likely be turned over to NID custody. This means the advanced weapon system would be under the control of NID, a decidedly not "proper hand."

Faced with the dire consequences, Jack made a judgment call and chose the lesser of two evils.

LoneStar1836
June 23rd, 2004, 02:01 AM
I love this episode for the struggle with morality that it presents, and the way it affects the members of SG-1. Here are these people offering SG-1 everything they’ve been seeking during their travels, and all they want in return is some heavy water. Sounds too good to be true, and thus makes for a great episode.

The Jack/Daniel conflict in this episode is probably one of the best ever portrayed in the series. Jack is so deadly serious about going through with the exchange without regard for the motives of the Eurondans that he would go so far as to alienate Daniel to get it. Daniel is always having to battle that military aspect of Jack, but in this episode, it reached an apex that hadn’t been seen before, IMO.

As far as Jack’s decision to turn on the Eurondans, I think he was disgusted with the fact that he let opportunity override his better judgment to inquire about the war. He came to the ultimate realization of whom he was actually dealing with which led to the final outcome. These people were the Nazis incarnate and Alar was the personification of Hitler (or a hypothetical son of Hitler since it was actually his father that masterminded the planned extermination of the “Breeders”). Jack knew exactly what he was offering the Eurondans in the fact that he cut Sam off without the usual sarcasm. He knew the military applications of Deuterium and heavy water, yet he consciously looked past that in order to advance Earth’s agenda. This introduction of heavy water also parallels WWII in the fact that German control of a plant in Norway that produced heavy water had to ultimately be part of their plan to produce a nuclear weapon. Luckily, Allied forces disrupted this operation. The writers must have researched this aspect of the story or otherwise why would they have chosen heavy water as the item of trade. They could have just used the good old standby, uranium or plutonium, which people automatically equate with a nuclear bomb, but can also be used as an energy source.

I don’t have a problem with what Jack did to Alar. He warned him not to follow, though probably knowing he would still do so to save himself. Alar had no regard for all those other people he was leaving behind that had followed his leadership to their death (another Hitler parallel). If he had allowed him to come through the gate and live, what use would we have with him? I doubt Alar himself knew how to engineer the technology we wanted, and I would rather not have my tax dollars going to detain “Hitler” indefinitely. It was a little more disturbing what happened to the other Eurondans. They may not have all been as adamant as Alar and his close associates in the destruction of the “Breeders” based solely on the fact that they didn’t like the way they reproduced. They may have been induced to fight more because they had to because of the decisions and propaganda of others, and then again they may have all been as bloodthirsty as Alar.

I mean how did they ever expect to win except with a number of nuclear weapons. You would have already thought that they would have been using this tactic along with the gassing of the planet long before their means of producing nuclear material was cut off when the area around the ocean was captured. You would think since they had the foresight to build that expansive underground complex, they would have also been developing and stocking nuclear weapons based on their level of technological advance which was something like 100 years more advanced than Earth’s based on Carter’s estimates. I know the bomb was not operational until the end of WWII, but these people should have already possessed the technology, and if they were so hell bent on exterminating those they felt were inferior, then why did they not go all out to win when they started the war? Unless it was interrupted by the preemptive strike, and thus all their preparations were not complete so they retreated underground hoping that poisoning the atmosphere alone would wipeout the Breeders. I’m not defending them, but it makes you wonder.

This war obviously had been going on for over thirty years. With or without SG-1’s interference, the Eurondans were doomed anyway. Their shields would have eventually failed, and I’m assuming the heavy water was also linked with being able to maintain the people in stasis so they would have had to awaken them, and they would have all starved to death anyway or died in the bombing, refusing to surrender. They were going to win or die trying in futility based on the fact they did not want to leave that world when given the opportunity to do so by SG-1. They so wanted the Breeders exterminated that even separation by being on different planets was still not good enough or at least for Alar it was not. Who knows what the others might have chosen given the option.

I hate to call Jack callous because of his life experiences because he is passionate about the defense of Earth and his friends, but here he let his apathy of the situation cause him even more grief. He had to have felt guilty about his treatment of Daniel after realizing his error in judgment. His decision at the time to kill Alar and allow for the destruction of the Eurondans was fueled by anger, but the action is bound to affect him later. So in saying that I agree with this observation of Jack’s character:


On the other hand, perhaps, his willingness to carry the burden (of making difficult choices) is precisely what affords everyone else the luxury in intellectual moralizing.
This same conflict arises in "Unnatural Selection" in season 6 which I also like for the story it presents.

I like those episodes that tend to make you think more, and this one was interesting because it wasn’t resolved in a nice “happy” way.

Yeah my rambling is probably more than you cared to read (if you even made it this far), but it’s just my two cents on what I thought about the episode since it was shown on tv today.

Anubis
June 23rd, 2004, 07:35 AM
Good episode. I like the trades of heavy water and O'Neill didn't care what happened to them as long as he got what he wanted. I also liked those pilot vessels!

stargate barbie
June 23rd, 2004, 03:37 PM
This episode left me slightly unsettled. I suppose not every moral dilemma could be tied in a neat package like Scorched Earth.
i think thats the basic point of the episode. stargate seems to like doing episodes in which its left up to the viewer who was right or wrong. not everything in life is black and white. they like to show that SG-1 is not infallible and that there isn't always a "right" way to resolve a problem. they also like to show that "resolved" problems have consequences (whether we see them on screen or not). but onloy sometimes, like when they can make a good story out of it :D

this is part of why i really like this episode.

SeaBee
June 26th, 2004, 01:58 AM
I thought Jack's go at Daniel was a little OTT, but, apart from that, a good episode.

I've read the earlier posts about the moral implications involved in this ep., and thought about the fact that both America and Russia collected German scientists after WW2. The US space program came directly out of the V2 program, and no-one in the world seems to have had a problem with that.

I think that, if this had been RL, O'Neill would have taken the tecnology, not destroyed it.

Liebestraume
June 28th, 2004, 06:20 PM
This same conflict arises in "Unnatural Selection" in season 6 which I also like for the story it presents.

I like those episodes that tend to make you think more, and this one was interesting because it wasn’t resolved in a nice “happy” way.Same here. Thanks for the thoughtful review. I really enjoyed reading it. :)

Crazedwraith
June 29th, 2004, 03:09 AM
I was under the impression the crystal comp full of tech was smashed entirely by accident when i watched the episode.

Besides, Elar's people were going to die no matter what; they tried to commit genocide for crying outloud. I'm not saying all of them deserved death but O'Neill was just trying to repair the damage he'd done to the breeders earlier.

What did suprise me was the letting Elar smash straight into the iris. Personally I think he should have been clearer that he was going to close the iris and Alar would die but thats just me. It did result in a nice "Evil Jack" Moment.

Anubis
June 29th, 2004, 04:00 AM
It's the horns of the devil. :mad:

LoneStar1836
June 29th, 2004, 11:09 PM
Same here. Thanks for the thoughtful review. I really enjoyed reading it. :)

Thank you for the compliment. :) I'm glad you and one other brave unnamed soul were able to wade through that novella. :D I really like this episode and had seen it that day and thought why not take three or more hours to toss out my interpretation for the record. :rolleyes: I haven't put that much thought into writing since the history research papers and English lit. analysis papers I spat out in college. Brought back memories of staying up all night (I am a big procrastinator) writing them until I had to go to class the next day.

I like most episodes of Stargate, but I find those that cause you to evaluate the situation, decisions, and outcome more closely, such as “The Other Side”, to be somewhat more engrossing. Of course, I like those that don’t tend to tax the brain too much, too!

Selmak
July 10th, 2004, 08:12 PM
why do the people that can help us always turn out to be evil.

Selmak
July 26th, 2004, 06:57 PM
They had UAV's that was cool.

Ramne
August 10th, 2004, 07:05 PM
I still can never get the character of Clayton out of my head... I watched way too much Benson when I was a kid...

Major Fischer
August 17th, 2004, 04:59 PM
I couldn't much get into this episode, partly because I couldn't in my mind suspend the feeling that I was watching Rene Auberjonois as Odo. It didn't happen to me with Marina in Watergate, and I couldn't tell you why I couldn't get into the character, but it just was.

I guess I liked the concept of this episode more than I liked it's execution. Jack seemed to be a little out of character, and I thought that the actions didn't carry much.

As for what's been stated earlier in the thred about using Nazi technology despite the means that were used to get it, we did. A lot of truely horrifying things happened at Mittlebau-Dora which had a direct impact on our space program. Men that were idealized in the 1950s and 1960s in the states, who claimed that they didn't know anything about what the SS was doing there.

On the flip side, nearly all of the medical experimentation done in the death camps is useless. Modern medicine does not have to deal with the moral problems because the methodology and basis was so mixed in fantasy.

Liebestraume
September 26th, 2004, 02:18 PM
On the flip side, nearly all of the medical experimentation done in the death camps is useless. Modern medicine does not have to deal with the moral problems because the methodology and basis was so mixed in fantasy.
Not to get too OT (or to debate international politics), but I'd like to observe that "medical experimentation" was not limited in Nazi death camps. A cursory glance of the Imeperial Japanese version, for instance, makes one's skin crawl. Unfortunately, the specifics of these atrocities have not been well-acknowledged in the west. Perhaps that's (part of) why modern medicine has not been dealing with the moral problems.

Major Fischer
September 26th, 2004, 02:26 PM
Not to get too OT (or to debate international politics), but I'd like to observe that "medical experimentation" was not limited in Nazi death camps. A cursory glance of the Imeperial Japanese version, for instance, makes one's skin crawl. Unfortunately, the specifics of these atrocities have not been well-acknowledged in the west. Perhaps that's (part of) why modern medicine has not been dealing with the moral problems.

Very true, and much of that research was used after the war. The thing with that, was that most of the Japanese medical research was into biological warfare and was used in biological warfare research post-war, which has a host of it's own ethical issues.

Here the answer, I think has more to do with the fact that the Japanese medical research community has been set up (at least since the war) in such a way to be deterimental to cutting edge research. Essentially they make it very difficult for medicines developed abroad to gain approval in Japan, and that makes foreign companies reluctant to participate with Japanese firms in joint projects. So essentially while the rest of the world moves forward working togeather on pharmacudicals and the like, the Japanese are slightly behind.

It's one of the costs of protectionism.

((My father worked for a German and a now works for a Japanese drug company, so I've heard him ranting at the diner table about the subject for about two decades now. Which is funny because my father rants about nothing ;) ))

Osiris-RA
November 22nd, 2004, 05:14 PM
what did o'neill mean when he was in that cryogenic room and he was scrolling through all the frozen people and he said ' they're all the same. every damn one of them.' i though he meant that they were all frozen, which was too obvious, then i tought he might have meant something on the screen.
anybody know?
:D

Kanten
November 22nd, 2004, 05:36 PM
I'm pretty sure he was referring to the fact that they all basically shared almost the exact same genetics, as seen in their similar appearance. Farrell mentioned to Daniel about preserving genetic purity, which would give the Eurondans a very, very small gene pool for distinction between all of the people in stasis, and pretty much everyone underground. Call them all genetic clones of each other if you will.

Osiris-RA
November 22nd, 2004, 05:42 PM
I'm pretty sure he was referring to the fact that they all basically shared almost the exact same genetics, as seen in their similar appearance. Farrell mentioned to Daniel about preserving genetic purity, which would give the Eurondans a very, very small gene pool for distinction between all of the people in stasis, and pretty much everyone underground. Call them all genetic clones of each other if you will.

oh, i see. i cant belive i didnt get that.

i think this is one of the important episodes in stargate because they touch on a subject which seems to be the center of some controversy amoung americans. cloning. it's a stupid, stupid thing to do. weakening the gene pool and eventually, causing the very opposite of what it was intended for. death. after all, without fresh strong genes to use once in awhile, how would they continue living? it'd be like ... something i'd rather not touch on.

LMichelle
November 23rd, 2004, 12:49 PM
I thought Jack was a little too harsh to Daniel. Poor Daniel. :(

jckfan55
November 23rd, 2004, 03:58 PM
I thought Rene A. did a great creepy job. (It's been long enough, that I'm over the Benson thing. :)
When he gives Tealc that look at the beginning you know something's fishy. And then when he gets that dreamy look talking about his father: "It was his vision..." you know just how fanatical they are. Not that you didn't know something was up--but you finally see--and SG1 sees--just how bad they are.

Vapor
November 24th, 2004, 02:51 PM
YES! Now THIS is the way to do it!

This was one great episode, imo.

It's not just another story of SG-1 going to some planet and getting into trouble, and then experiancing some sci-fi thing, and then escaping at the last second... I mean, it is all those things, but there's actually MORE than that here, which is what makes me happy.

There's a real human element to the story, with a relateable story about real life issues. The people of this world are racists in the worst sense, and don't even realize how wretched their way of thinking is. Not only this, but we also have conflicts between the characters, especially Jack and Daniel. Those two butting heads is one thing I'm always up for, and this is a perfect example of it done right.

This is the episode "New Ground" should have been.

SmartFox
March 18th, 2005, 08:19 PM
genocide is the right term. the SGC does not have a "prime directive". jack is a military man from a black ops background and is trained almost specifically for that kind of work. the fact that he went against daniels wishes means nothing. daniel is not military and would not understand such a decision even on earth. even carter who is military seemed to have some trouble with part of what he did.
daniel would not have been able to carry out such a difficult decision, and thats why he's not in command of the team and jack is.

the nazi's made some pretty big advances in technology in their day too. would you consider the decision to neutralize the threat they posed (not to mention the atrocities they committed) to be secondary to the advances they made? if you had the choice between salvaging technology, that wasn't earned or developed by you and saving millions of lives, with the potential sacrifice of a fraction of that, which choice would you take. what is more valueable, human lives or a fancy microwave? :p

personally i think he did the only thing he could do, the only thing he knew how to do in such a situation. i'd probably do the same. part of it may have been instinct.

personally i think you're only upset because he killed the blonde, aren't ya? :P
if it makes you feel any better, PDL was the director of that episode and he killed of his own girlfriends character in it, and didn't have any problems with that.

and you could have posted this in the recliner of rage thread. :D it fits. (shameless push)


Well in the case of the Nazi's we stopped them and then took alot of their technology. Thats what Jack should of done.

Sha're
April 6th, 2005, 04:16 PM
This was a great issue for Stargate to deal with. A technologically superior race that actually wants to supply some technology. No wonder the green light was given to start negotiations. Rene A. Is creepy and horrible in this ep - you just know there's something about him. :rolleyes: I can understand the way Jack acts for much of this episode - Elar avoids the issue of why the enemy are their enemy. Jack has been given orders that he has to follow - I enjoyed the conflict between him and Daniel - with Daniel again taking the humanitarian side. And of course he was right - Jack was diplomatic enough to admit that. Good character episode IMO.

Willow
April 8th, 2005, 06:57 AM
I thought it was interesting that Daniel was on the other side of the table from the others during the initial negotiations. Like he was already out of step with them or something.

fair_nymph
April 9th, 2005, 09:19 AM
This was an excellent episode in my opinion. We get a new alien race, some cool new technology, and a thought-provoking moral/ethical dilemma.

I noticed very early on that all the Cloners looked very Aryan, especially when they went through the database of those in stasis. So while I didn't suspect that they were fighting a war of genocide initially, I was always a little suspicious. Of course there was also the whole way they interacted with Teal'C.

I think that ultimately SG1 did 'the right thing', with one exception. Jack should not have let the leader hit the iris. I feel that in this case Jack was letting his emotions get the best of him, and not thinking levelly. Just think of all the technology they could have learned from him. It makes me want to cry every time they come so close to getting a bunch of new technology and it evades them like this. :(

Willow
April 10th, 2005, 09:38 AM
I think that ultimately SG1 did 'the right thing', with one exception. Jack should not have let the leader hit the iris.
*************

Maybe so, but Alar already knew what would happen if an unauthorised person tried to come through the gate.

fair_nymph
April 10th, 2005, 11:09 AM
But he couldn't have known for sure that he would immediately shut the iris (or that there would even be time for that). He was going to die if he remained anyway. Short and sweet is better, if he has to die.

QuiGonJohn
May 15th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Another good episode. I liked the conflict between Jack & Daniel, and that Jack sees he was wrong. Also, as already stated, no prime directive here on Stargate.

Perriman33
August 11th, 2005, 11:57 PM
I enjoyed this one but the way it worked out was kinda weird. I thought they were too quick at the start to jump in and help with the fighting. And once they had found out they may be on the wrong side they went out of their way to destroy them. Rene A was very good in his part and the technology was brilliant. I felt a bit uncomfortable watching some of it though, maybe it was a bit close to how things are in the real world!

Psiberian
August 20th, 2005, 11:20 PM
I just watched this episode, and I agree that it was very thought provoking. One thing that noone here has considered, though, is the possible future ramifications of any alliance, had one been formed; What do you think would have happened to that alliance once Alar and his people discovered that the entirety of Earth were also "breeders"? How long would that alliance have lasted before Alar turned on Earth as well?

Stricken
September 8th, 2005, 04:44 AM
Wow strange episode, Jacks dark side came out at the end when he said close the iris and thump, anyway good epsiode to the new year!

Tezzador
September 9th, 2005, 11:36 PM
A very disturbing episode indeed, but I feel that Jack has shouldn't interfere with other races just because he can do it. He should have just left them alone instead making himself feel whether or not he had done the right thing.

Metarock Sam
September 11th, 2005, 10:31 AM
This episode dealt with the fact that O'neill is afterall a military man and as he was slightly succumbed by the technology aswell as the way these people pretended to be helpless he didn't realise that he was on the wrong side. This also happens in Scorched Earth however with a little less shouting at Daniel. He then makes up for his mistake fro getting rid of the basicly Hitler if he was a clone. The amount of people that the man had orderd killed would probably have been thousands if not more so Jack closing the Iris to in effect kill Alar justifies itself.

Uber
September 11th, 2005, 01:06 PM
This episode dealt with the fact that O'neill is afterall a military man and as he was slightly succumbed by the technology aswell as the way these people pretended to be helpless he didn't realise that he was on the wrong side. This also happens in Scorched Earth however with a little less shouting at Daniel. He then makes up for his mistake fro getting rid of the basicly Hitler if he was a clone. The amount of people that the man had orderd killed would probably have been thousands if not more so Jack closing the Iris to in effect kill Alar justifies itself.What if Alar had been allowed to come to earth? What would we have done with him? Chances are, we'd wait until we were able to, then send him back to his own people to be tried and executed (assuming the rebels won, which was what was implied would happen at the end of the episode). So anyway you look at it, Alar was on borrowed time.

Truth be told, I was never bothered by what Jack did. I know some were disappointed with Jack. In fact I had always read the expression Sam gives him at the end as being that of "what a tragic waste"...but according to Amanda Tapping, she was expressing Sam's disappointment in Jack for "playing God" as it were.

I however didn't see it that way at all.

I would have been really disappointed had he not warned Alar very pointedly by specifically telling him NOT to follow them. Alar disregarded the warning and met his fate.

And you know Alar understood what Jack meant, too, because he had lost people who came through the gate to earth at the beginning of the episode and it was in fact a major point in their dealings with each other...that it was unfortunate that those men were lost...so Alar knew about the iris.

But as most despots are, he was a coward...no longer able to rely on the safety of his bunker to indiscriminately kill those he didn't approve of, apparently unable to further poison and murder the population above and knowing that he'd either be arrested or killed by those topside, he chose the "easy way out."

I also like the fact that Jack was able to admit that Daniel and Sam were right...actually it was mostly Daniel but Sam agreed with his reasoning. Perhaps he realized that to go ahead and ally with a questionable people for the benefits of getting better technology was frighteningly similar to the NID's philosophy that acquiring technology should be done by any means necessary, regardless of moral implications.

:cool:

walter_MacChevron
September 17th, 2005, 10:46 AM
I thought it was a mediocore episode

AGateFan
November 13th, 2005, 11:56 AM
I thought it was a mediocore episode
Funny, I always thought of it as just a so-so ep myself. Then I rewatched it yesterday to put a synopsis on the Sony sight and I found I really, really enjoyed this ep. Wonder if the ep is really that good or if I am just missing team eps so much that I even like the ep where the team is standing against one another (everyone vs Daniel in this case).

Plus there were a couple of good scenes.
Jack and his "didn’t I order you to get a life"
Jack\Daniel and the teal'c "look" conversations.
Teal'c and his "he is concealing something...... I do not know he is concealing it".

Some annoying things.
Jack and Daniel both had 'tudes' in this ep and Teal'c had the little caterpillar on his chin. But still it was a nice fighting family ep with everyone doing what they do.

Jack was gung ho to complete the mission (acquire tech) at any cost (until they insulted his pal Teal'c)
Carter was good dutiful 2IC reciting standing orders when ordered to do so.
Daniel was gung-ho humanist that isn’t fond of giving people weapons even if we do get what we want.
Teal'c strong, silent, dutiful (supportive of O'neill even if he was suspicious).

solar wind
November 13th, 2005, 07:18 PM
It's one of the great things about Jack Oneill. He made the decision, what he thought was right and did it. At first he chose to ignore the warnings and not ask the questions, but when he realized he was wrong he apologised and went full steam ahead with what was right. He didn't hum and haw. I greatly admire that. Uncompromising, doing what it takes even though I'm sure Jack wasn't happy that his command ended someones life. The guy got what was coming for him, and he was warned.

The_Fifth
January 18th, 2006, 11:46 AM
the best episode of stargate in my opinion...

Sheppard
July 20th, 2006, 02:29 AM
i liked their advanced fighters i thought that technology would of been great on earth

monkey_man132
May 16th, 2007, 01:36 PM
I just re-watched this episode and I got so pissed..again! Every time I watch this episode I get so mad. They could have given them the heavy water and just be done with it. I do realize that the show would have been done though, LOL. Imagine they could have put their own forcefield around SGC and other important sites. I'm still pissed I get mad when morals get in the way of protecting Earth.

Team SG-1*save the show*
May 16th, 2007, 02:36 PM
agree with you. we should of took their technology and then cut all ties with them!!!!

garhkal
May 16th, 2007, 03:12 PM
I'm still pissed I get mad when morals get in the way of protecting Earth.

Imo it is our morals that makes us humans different from all the other sentient races out there. if we give them up we are no more than they are.

monkey_man132
May 17th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Who cares about morals man? We would have unmanned fighters with advance energy weapons possibly greater than that of the Goa'uld.We could have completed our standing orders by season 4, I know they show lasted longer and we finally have even better technology, but who cares.

Elite Anubis Guard
June 26th, 2007, 03:28 AM
I just brought S4 and saw this episode for the first time since I'd seen the episode. This time I actually got the problem and I was so amazed at this. It went from being an average episode to an amazing episode.

I just loved how the Eurodans went from good to bad, and I think the story itself was excellent. What really shone to me was the character reactions after finding out they're teamed up with a Neo-Nazi.

Harlan's Speechwriter
July 22nd, 2007, 09:25 PM
I enjoyed this episode. The moral of the story seems to be played a little more subtly, than it is in some other episodes.

I was surprised, though, that Jack didn't ask more questions from the outset; after all, this 'enemy' was unknown by the SG teams. I also thought that SG1 might show a bit more concern for the pilot, especially before so willingly embarking upon two or three more 'missions' themselves.

Tittamiire
August 11th, 2007, 12:07 PM
I enjoy this episode, I like Rene Auberjonois and I think he did a really good job in this episode of playing the baddy with a level of subtely that was effective and the writing told the story well.

Plus all the little character interactions I really enjoy were rich!

KindlyKeller
March 23rd, 2008, 10:40 PM
Wow! I mean, wow! What a great episode. This is one of the best "moral question" episodes in the history of the franchise... in a very nuanced way too! Like, they figured out what was going on and were in the moral right in not helping, but was it right for them to actively destroy them on behalf of the "breeders" too? And was it right for Jack to raise the iris to kill Alar?

Fantastic, fascinating episode!

Major Clanger
March 24th, 2008, 12:21 AM
When I look back on past seasons I often think that this one (along with Scorched Earth) are the best reasons for watching the show. Moral ambiguity isn't something that is done often (or well) on TV, especially not in Sci-fi (usually bad guys like Alar would be running around in easily identifiable "nazi"-ish uniforms to "help" the viewer decide)

I miss this kind of writing, a lot.

Ulkesh47
June 23rd, 2008, 09:54 PM
I thought the episode overall was just... okay. I just didn't get into the story. It's decent, not great. But the flight control device things were ingenious.

captain jake
June 30th, 2008, 11:36 PM
Wow! I mean, wow! What a great episode. This is one of the best "moral question" episodes in the history of the franchise... in a very nuanced way too! Like, they figured out what was going on and were in the moral right in not helping, but was it right for them to actively destroy them on behalf of the "breeders" too? And was it right for Jack to raise the iris to kill Alar?

Fantastic, fascinating episode!

I agree, Stargate meets the Master Race complex. To answer your questions no it wasn't right of them to crash the planes into the shields, however it was right to defend the enemy bombers containing human lives. As for your second question no it was not right of Jack to allow Alar to be killed. His punishment should have been a prison cell and a massive amount of work at Area 51 or something like that.

That's my opinion anyways.


When I look back on past seasons I often think that this one (along with Scorched Earth) are the best reasons for watching the show. Moral ambiguity isn't something that is done often (or well) on TV, especially not in Sci-fi (usually bad guys like Alar would be running around in easily identifiable "nazi"-ish uniforms to "help" the viewer decide)

I miss this kind of writing, a lot.

I agree it is ashame that we don't get these kind of episodes very often anymore. However, that doesn't make the new episodes bad, just different. I think it was Richard D. Anderson that made these "moral ambiguity" episodes as you called them as good as they were. Without him I don't think they would be any good anyways, so they might as well just keep blowing stuff up until they get another RDA.


I thought the episode overall was just... okay. I just didn't get into the story. It's decent, not great. But the flight control device things were ingenious.

I agree the flight control was pretty cool, but I think you will agree that they had a really nasty side effect.

Ulkesh47
July 1st, 2008, 02:07 PM
I agree the flight control was pretty cool, but I think you will agree that they had a really nasty side effect.

Yeah, that guy looked like a zombie!

captain jake
July 1st, 2008, 02:19 PM
Yeah, that guy looked like a zombie!

I was laughing my head off when jack felt his own jaw to make sure it was normal.

L E E
July 10th, 2008, 05:19 AM
I love aerial dogfights, intriguing moral dilemma and the message in this episode. Left me thinking some heavy thoughts.

garhkal
July 10th, 2008, 09:03 AM
Though i am wondering why there was no remembering of the 'moral wrong turn he did' later on..

HelloVelo
July 10th, 2008, 09:47 AM
Anyone for another helping of hydroponically grown yeast?

Rating: 5/10

Full Review: http://stargatesummer.blogspot.com/2008/07/other-side.html

Butlersgate
February 27th, 2009, 01:39 AM
This episode shows the team in depth on a moral level. We see Daniel at this best with his questioning of Euronda’s intentions and position in the war almost right away. When he keeps on getting interrupted by Jack you see a tension there that has only been brushed upon in past episodes. Jack seems to show how he really feels about the situation but you get the feeling that he just wants the technology without asking too many questions. Later finding out that he was suspicious and when Alar tells him that it would be best if Teal’c should not return because he is “different”.

When I first heard that I thought that this episode was really heavy for a stargate episode on a moral level. This interests me as it forces the characters to react in such a way that they will have to eventually show their true feelings towards this situation. Throughout the episode the focus is mainly on Daniel and Jack but you can sense Teal’cs disapproval and suspicion without him saying more then a couple of words. I think that this shows Teal’c at his best in terms of saying a thousand words with just facial movement. Sam appears to be put in the middle of this morally unstable situation and she looks like she agrees with Daniel but feels obligated to support Jack because Earth needs the technology and I think this shows us how torn she can be between her team mates.

This episode is important to me as though the actual storyline continues no longer throughout the rest of the series, the moral issues stand and impact later decisions and feels for episodes. The previous episodes “nemesis” and “small victories” turns the whole series down a different direction on how the team operates and this episode confirms the change in depth of characters.

This is just my take on the episode anyway from looking at it a little closer so please no flaming about my opinion because I could very well be wrong about the things I have said.

amconway
March 2nd, 2009, 10:02 PM
No, I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis, in terms of all the characters. There is room for debate as to whether Daniel should have challenged Jack in public like that, but he was correct no matter what one might think about his diplomacy. Daniel gets forced into the role of the diplomat frequently, but he is entirely too blunt to be truly good at it. ;)

The signs were there from the beginning that something was off, but Jack was too concerned about getting their technology to want to see them.

Teal'c knew something was up, but as a warrior, felt compelled to both follow the wishes of his leader, and to gain the weapons that he knows they need. You could tell he was torn, though. He knew something was being hidden, and he respects Daniel's opinion on such matters. I think he really didn't like to see Jack and Daniel at odds with each other like that.

Poor Sam. Lot of conflict there. She was quite impatient with Daniel, and appeared to agree with Jack, but you could tell she had some doubts. She did admit to General Hammond that Daniel had a valid point.

Speaking of Hammond, how nasty was that crack he made about "You of all people should know that Apophis is out there and a threat" (paraphrase)? As though Daniel has forgotten that Apophis has his wife! Good Lord, George! Twist that knife a little, why don't you? Yeah, Daniel was being a little pissy, but c'mon!

Luckily they discover the truth, but not before things have gotten pretty unsavory. Jack and Teal'c have killed enemy fighters before they turn the tables, destroying the planet poisoning Nazis.

Did Jack know that Alar would follow him through the gate? I think he had a good idea that he might. Did Sam know he knew? You betcha. Should he have been more specific with Alar before he went through? Maybe, but did it matter? He was going to die either way, and he knew they had an iris. They'd already lost people that way. I figure Jack knew he might follow and Alar knew he might die. So, did Jack cause his death, or was it suicide? Who's to say. All we can say for sure is that SG-1 did end up deciding the course of a World War, but I can't say I disagree with their actions--except that they didn't listen to Daniel earlier.


This episode is important to me as though the actual storyline continues no longer throughout the rest of the series, the moral issues stand and impact later decisions and feels for episodes. The previous episodes “nemesis” and “small victories” turns the whole series down a different direction on how the team operates and this episode confirms the change in depth of characters.
I think this is one of the most significant episodes. Sadly, it is one of the episodes that marked the end of the truly unified team that we loved, but it (and others) did add complexity and create a lot of the character development. I'm going to have a look at Nemesis and Small Victories in relation to this one

Khentkawes
March 2nd, 2009, 11:07 PM
Ah wonderful discussion about one of my favorite episodes. :)

By the way, Butlersgate, those were some great thoughts to start off the discussion. Nice analysis!


No, I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis, in terms of all the characters. There is room for debate as to whether Daniel should have challenged Jack in public like that, but he was correct no matter what one might think about his diplomacy. Daniel gets forced into the role of the diplomat frequently, but he is entirely too blunt to be truly good at it. ;)

Lol. I think Daniel can be quite good a diplomacy. He is generally very polite and he knows how to deal with people. But I agree that he also is not willing to bend on what he believes, and he is the kind of person who never says less than what he means. So in that regard, yes, he is very blunt, and that can cause problems. I still think that, in general, he is well suited to diplomacy, partially because he is so brutally honest and doesn't sugarcoat anything. Although I guess that's a fairly unique and Daniel-esque style of diplomacy. :p



Speaking of Hammond, how nasty was that crack he made about "You of all people should know that Apophis is out there and a threat" (paraphrase)? As though Daniel has forgotten that Apophis has his wife! Good Lord, George! Twist that knife a little, why don't you? Yeah, Daniel was being a little pissy, but c'mon!

:indeed: I actually find myself angrier with Hammond's behavior than with Jack's (maybe partially because I expect it from Jack). Hammond's comment was simply uncalled for. I don't care how much pressure he had from "higher up" in the chain of command, or how much his superiors wanted those weapons... Hammond's comment was too personal and his tone too condescending. I think this is the only scene in the entire series where I feel like Hammond acted poorly towards one of the people under his command.



Did Jack know that Alar would follow him through the gate? I think he had a good idea that he might. Did Sam know he knew? You betcha. Should he have been more specific with Alar before he went through? Maybe, but did it matter? He was going to die either way, and he knew they had an iris. They'd already lost people that way. I figure Jack knew he might follow and Alar knew he might die. So, did Jack cause his death, or was it suicide? Who's to say. All we can say for sure is that SG-1 did end up deciding the course of a World War, but I can't say I disagree with their actions--except that they didn't listen to Daniel earlier.

I'm normally pretty passionate about moral/ethical issues, but this is one point that I don't really care about. Did Jack do anything wrong? I honestly don't think so. If Alar had followed them back to Earth, what would they have done? I suppose they could have benefited from his knowledge about the Eurondans technology, but it was so advanced that I don't think the SGC could really understand it or use it effectively. And even if they did, is it really an ethical decision to harbor a genocidal maniac just so you can profit from his knowledge? Technically, Alar was a war criminal. I don't know if Earth would have had the right to prosecute him as such, but in a war crimes trial, I imagine that Alar would be sentenced to death. Did Jack's action cause Alar's death? I tend to think that Alar committed suicide because he couldn't handle the thought of losing his perfect little race of people. But honestly, I don't think it matters.

I have never quite known how to interpret the look Sam gives Jack. I don't know what was meant by that, and it doesn't make sense to me. That's probably the most irritating point in this episode for me, because I can never figure out what I'm supposed to take away from that last scene. :S



I think this is one of the most significant episodes. Sadly, it is one of the episodes that marked the end of the truly unified team that we loved, but it (and others) did add complexity and create a lot of the character development. I'm going to have a look at Nemesis and Small Victories in relation to this one

Definitely! This is one of my favorite episodes because of the moral dilemma, the conflict and development of the characters, and the real depth that it has. But it also makes me angry every time I watch it (Meridian does the same thing for me). I consider it the mark of a good episode that I feel a strong emotional reaction every time I watch it, and that it makes me think. So in that respect, I think this is and excellent episode in terms of writing and addressing complex issues.

At the same time, it makes me sad, because I agree that it marks the beginning of a slow decline in the "unified team." I know that there are many fans who don't see it this way, but I still see a decline in the "team dynamic" starting in this episode and permeating all of season 4 (and possibly small bits of season 5). So this is always a very intense episode for me. Thought-provoking, but also frustrating, making for a bitter-sweet viewing experience.

amconway
March 3rd, 2009, 12:05 AM
I always figured that look meant "OMG! You just let that guy squish like a bug! On purpose! Ewww."

Khentkawes
March 3rd, 2009, 12:23 AM
Lol. I'll go with that, I guess. ;)

But to me it always looked more like "OMG my eyelids are glued open and my eyeball are about to pop out of my head." Or possibly "OMG I just choked on a fish bone!"

But maybe it was just "OMG we just almost helped a genocidal maniac, and then he followed us through the wormhole and went splat like a bug! This should go down on the list of worst-missions-ever!"

;) I guess my problem is just that they had no problem helping the Eurondans fight a war (knowing that war would result in a large number of deaths) but suddenly there's this big ambiguous moral moment about the death of one guy (one very, very bad guy)? The reaction seemed overdone to me, considering everything that went on before.

Butlersgate
March 3rd, 2009, 01:46 AM
I think this is one of the most significant episodes. Sadly, it is one of the episodes that marked the end of the truly unified team that we loved, but it (and others) did add complexity and create a lot of the character development. I'm going to have a look at Nemesis and Small Victories in relation to this one

i watched them two recently and for the first time i noticed subtle changes with how the team works but you just start to think, ahh nothings different and then in this episode you see which direction the team goes in and it was quite a shocker for me.

amconway
March 3rd, 2009, 08:12 AM
I guess my problem is just that they had no problem helping the Eurondans fight a war (knowing that war would result in a large number of deaths) but suddenly there's this big ambiguous moral moment about the death of one guy (one very, very bad guy)? The reaction seemed overdone to me, considering everything that went on before.
Yes, but there is an element of willfull cruelty that's a bit...disturbling. It wasn't different in result, but still, it was different. I think Sam't reaction is "I can't believe you just did that" not because of his death, but because it was a whole lot like a cat playing with a mouse.


i watched them two recently and for the first time i noticed subtle changes with how the team works but you just start to think, ahh nothings different and then in this episode you see which direction the team goes in and it was quite a shocker for me.
It was definately an intentional element that they added. I suspect they thought they needed more conflict, more like the movie. I don't think that was the case, but it did give us some excellent character episodes and provide some logic to Daniel's feeling that he might be able to do more if he ascended.

Butlersgate
March 4th, 2009, 04:10 AM
but it did give us some excellent character episodes and provide some logic to Daniel's feeling that he might be able to do more if he ascended.

yeah i just watched meridian and thought about this episode.

EvenstarSRV
March 4th, 2009, 06:32 PM
Lol. I think Daniel can be quite good a diplomacy. He is generally very polite and he knows how to deal with people. But I agree that he also is not willing to bend on what he believes, and he is the kind of person who never says less than what he means. So in that regard, yes, he is very blunt, and that can cause problems. I still think that, in general, he is well suited to diplomacy, partially because he is so brutally honest and doesn't sugarcoat anything. Although I guess that's a fairly unique and Daniel-esque style of diplomacy. :p

Daniel can be quite diplomatic when he needs to, but he failed in that regard to me in this episode. Yes, he was right about the Eurondans, but he openly questioned his team leader in front of them and blatantly showed that there was discord amongst the team about what to do. Definitely not a good strategy for negotiations, which Alar later exploited, and not really being a team player to me, despite him being right. I much preferred him bring up his objections to Hammond in private and wish he could have done the same with Jack.



I have never quite known how to interpret the look Sam gives Jack. I don't know what was meant by that, and it doesn't make sense to me. That's probably the most irritating point in this episode for me, because I can never figure out what I'm supposed to take away from that last scene. :S

I interpreted her look at shock at Jack killing Alar in such a deliberate, almost calculated way. I kinda see it as Sam coming face-to-face with Black Ops Jack and being a bit disturbed about what she sees.



Definitely! This is one of my favorite episodes because of the moral dilemma, the conflict and development of the characters, and the real depth that it has. But it also makes me angry every time I watch it (Meridian does the same thing for me). I consider it the mark of a good episode that I feel a strong emotional reaction every time I watch it, and that it makes me think. So in that respect, I think this is and excellent episode in terms of writing and addressing complex issues.


I agree, I remember being struck by the depth of storytelling the first time I saw this episode, and I especially enjoyed Jack's arc.

HPMom
March 28th, 2009, 06:27 AM
This episode shows the team in depth on a moral level. We see Daniel at this best with his questioning of Euronda’s intentions and position in the war almost right away. When he keeps on getting interrupted by Jack you see a tension there that has only been brushed upon in past episodes. Jack seems to show how he really feels about the situation but you get the feeling that he just wants the technology without asking too many questions. Later finding out that he was suspicious and when Alar tells him that it would be best if Teal’c should not return because he is “different”.

When I first heard that I thought that this episode was really heavy for a stargate episode on a moral level. This interests me as it forces the characters to react in such a way that they will have to eventually show their true feelings towards this situation. Throughout the episode the focus is mainly on Daniel and Jack but you can sense Teal’cs disapproval and suspicion without him saying more then a couple of words. I think that this shows Teal’c at his best in terms of saying a thousand words with just facial movement. Sam appears to be put in the middle of this morally unstable situation and she looks like she agrees with Daniel but feels obligated to support Jack because Earth needs the technology and I think this shows us how torn she can be between her team mates.

This episode is important to me as though the actual storyline continues no longer throughout the rest of the series, the moral issues stand and impact later decisions and feels for episodes. The previous episodes “nemesis” and “small victories” turns the whole series down a different direction on how the team operates and this episode confirms the change in depth of characters.

This is just my take on the episode anyway from looking at it a little closer so please no flaming about my opinion because I could very well be wrong about the things I have said.

This is a great analysis. This is one of my favorite episodes and it shows the most growth on Jack's part. I think by the end he gained a real appreciation for Daniel's contribution to the team.

The Stig
April 28th, 2009, 10:18 PM
This episodes shows you why you don't get involved in fights that aren't your own.

Pic
August 20th, 2009, 01:06 PM
Wow! Great character discussion, folks. The moral ambiguity early in this episode was well played out. Daniel and Jack both had a point (even if I hate to admit Jack's point, even to myself). Forgive the bad pun, but sometimes things aren't so black and white. At the end of 42 minutes, our team always does the RIGHT thing, even if they dabbled with something else. This is television, that's expected. But what if Daniel hadn't been so persistent? What if Jack pushed the issue and what if Sam got that data storage thingy before it broke?

On a lighter note, I'm truly enjoying the witty sarcasm and funny dialogue on this re-watch. A friend recently reminded me of a couple great lines from this episode, I thought I'd share:


Daniel: No…their whole world is in flames and we are offering them gasoline. How is that help?
Teal'c: We are in fact offering water.
Daniel: I was speaking metaphorically.
Jack: Well stop it! You're not being fair to Teal'c



Jack: So what's your impression of Alar?
Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
Jack: Like what?
Teal'c: I am unsure, he is concealing it.

Dinoman
August 27th, 2009, 12:47 AM
Daniel can be quite diplomatic when he needs to, but he failed in that regard to me in this episode. Yes, he was right about the Eurondans, but he openly questioned his team leader in front of them and blatantly showed that there was discord amongst the team about what to do. Definitely not a good strategy for negotiations, which Alar later exploited, and not really being a team player to me, despite him being right. I much preferred him bring up his objections to Hammond in private and wish he could have done the same with Jack.

Daniel is not diplomatic to his fellow team members. This was not his first time having direct confrontation with Jack in front of outsiders. Apparently Jack knows about this weakness of Daniel very well but that doesn't stop him from getting angry with Daniel, and the fact that Daniel was right in most cases annoyed Jack sometimes.

EvenstarSRV
August 27th, 2009, 01:06 PM
Daniel is not diplomatic to his fellow team members. This was not his first time having direct confrontation with Jack in front of outsiders. Apparently Jack knows about this weakness of Daniel very well but that doesn't stop him from getting angry with Daniel, and the fact that Daniel was right in most cases annoyed Jack sometimes.

In the middle of official negotiations? I honestly can't recall an episode prior to this when he did that.

I'm not saying that Daniel was wrong to question to Eurondans' motives or to question Jack's single-minded determination to get their technology, he was right on both counts. But by questioning his CO in the middle of official negotiations, Daniel exposed the internal team disagreement, which the Eurondans later capitalized on to further pressure Jack and the SGC to give them the heavy water.

Daniel wasn't being diplomatic period, not to his team and certainly not to the Eurondans. IMHO, he had his opinion and he was going to state it regardless of the time, place, or consequences. That makes him forthright, honest, and more than a little stubborn, but not a team player in this case, which was my main objection to his behavior in this episode.

madaboutdanny
August 27th, 2009, 01:43 PM
In the middle of official negotiations? I honestly can't recall an episode prior to this when he did that.

I'm not saying that Daniel was wrong to question to Eurondans' motives or to question Jack's single-minded determination to get their technology, he was right on both counts. But by questioning his CO in the middle of official negotiations, Daniel exposed the internal team disagreement, which the Eurondans later capitalized on to further pressure Jack and the SGC to give them the heavy water.

Daniel wasn't being diplomatic period, not to his team and certainly not to the Eurondans. IMHO, he had his opinion and he was going to state it regardless of the time, place, or consequences. That makes him forthright, honest, and more than a little stubborn, but not a team player in this case, which was my main objection to his behavior in this episode.
Well, there was no team play when Hammond and Jack tricked Daniel at the beginning, making him believe that that was an humanitarian mission...maybe if they told Daniel the truth...

Ashizuri
August 27th, 2009, 02:13 PM
Well, there was no team play when Hammond and Jack tricked Daniel at the beginning, making him believe that that was an humanitarian mission...maybe if they told Daniel the truth...

When did Hammond and Jack "trick" Daniel? In the beginning it was a humanitarian mission and SG-1's goal was to provide medical assistance/food and then offer to trade for technologies.

Jack and Hammond acted rashly when the weapons technology was offered, yes, but they in no way misrepresented what they were doing. EDIT: Not that I can recall.

EvenstarSRV
August 27th, 2009, 02:57 PM
Well, there was no team play when Hammond and Jack tricked Daniel at the beginning, making him believe that that was an humanitarian mission...maybe if they told Daniel the truth...

Well, I agree with Ashizuri, it was a humanitarian mission at first. But, since the SGC's standing orders are the acquisition of technology to help them fight the Goa'uld, then I'm sure the next step they take when making contact with advance civilizations is to offer to trade for that technology. They did much the same with the Tollan in Enigma.

Nobody tricked Daniel, unless he's somehow been unaware of the SGC's standing orders after 3+ years of being in the program, which I highly doubt for a man of his intelligence.

madaboutdanny
August 27th, 2009, 03:14 PM
When did Hammond and Jack "trick" Daniel? In the beginning it was a humanitarian mission and SG-1's goal was to provide medical assistance/food and then offer to trade for technologies.

Jack and Hammond acted rashly when the weapons technology was offered, yes, but they in no way misrepresented what they were doing. EDIT: Not that I can recall.


Well, I agree with Ashizuri, it was a humanitarian mission at first. But, since the SGC's standing orders are the acquisition of technology to help them fight the Goa'uld, then I'm sure the next step they take when making contact with advance civilizations is to offer to trade for that technology. They did much the same with the Tollan in Enigma.

Nobody tricked Daniel, unless he's somehow been unaware of the SGC's standing orders after 3+ years of being in the program, which I highly doubt for a man of his intelligence.


Read the transcript, they waited for Daniel to leave before saying what was the first and foremost, I've bolded the lines, pourpose of the mission; better, watch the scene, it's clear!

[SG-1 and Hammond are in the briefing room. Daniel walks up to the table and sits down. O'Neill is distractedly drumming on the table.]

DANIEL
I know it seems hopeless and I know there are a lot of unanswered questions but this is the first time that the descendants of Earth have actually called home. I mean either we try to do something or we let them die.
[Daniel looks at Hammond.]

O'NEILL
It's your call, sir.
HAMMOND
Colonel…
DANIEL
Now I already know what you're going to say but…
HAMMOND
…You have a go
DANIEL
…From a strictly humanitarian point of view…. What?
[Daniel looks surprised at Hammond.]

HAMMOND
We cannot and would not devote the resources to turn the tide of world war. However as Dr. Jackson points out there are humanitarian concerns. We'll start with all of the food and medical supplies you can take with you. Major, perhaps…CARTER
We're on it, sir.
[She gets up and leaves. Daniel and O'Neill also get up. Daniel looks confused and looks about to say something but leaves also.]

HAMMOND
Colonel, humanitarian concerns aside, we may have finally met an advanced civilization willing to exchange technology to help us defend against the Goa'uld.
O'NEILL
My thoughts, sir.
HAMMOND
I've already talked to the President and Joint Chiefs. If the Eurondan government is open to trade you're authorized to negotiate.
[O'Neill smiles and walks out.]

Ashizuri
August 27th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Before that bolded line is said, Alar offers "many things in exchange" for their trust/help, meaning Daniel was in the room when the Eurondan's offered to trade/negotiate...so how does he not know that it's going to occur? Add to that, Daniel is in no way surprised/mad/offended when negotiations open, he only raises concerns when Jack offers something that will aid a war against an enemy they know nothing about. Daniel wasn't tricked.

The only trickery that occured in this episode was on the Eurondan's part.

EvenstarSRV
August 27th, 2009, 03:42 PM
Read the transcript, they waited for Daniel to leave before saying what was the first and foremost, I've bolded the lines, pourpose of the mission; better, watch the scene, it's clear!

<respectfully snipped for space>

Well, as I said earlier, even though Daniel wasn't present for Jack and Hammond's conversation, I would think by now he'd be aware that whenever the SGC encounters an advance civilization, after taking care of any humanitarian or security concerns they usually try to trade for any useful technology they may have.

And for the purpose of the mission, Hammond made it clear that it was two-fold, provide humanitarian assistance, and then with the President's authorization, open negotiations for future trade. Given Daniel's knowledge of the SGC's standing orders, I'm sure he was already aware of that aspect of the mission, same for Sam even though she left the room with Daniel.

Dinoman
August 27th, 2009, 04:57 PM
One must not forget that Daniel joined SG1 as a civilian and an archeologist. He has his own issues and concerns and even he is aware of the standing order I doubt it would have any priority over his own interest.

EvenstarSRV
August 27th, 2009, 06:26 PM
One must not forget that Daniel joined SG1 as a civilian and an archeologist. He has his own issues and concerns and even he is aware of the standing order I doubt it would have any priority over his own interest.

I agree that's how he acted in this instance, he put his own personal opinions above other considerations including team cohesion during negotiations. I thought it was in-character for him to do it, but also a bad choice on his part to do it in that manner and place.

As a member of SG-1 and the SGC, part of Daniel's duty is to prioritize the interests of his team and the SGC above his own. Being a civilian and archaeologist does not excuse him from that responsibility, IMO.

madaboutdanny
August 28th, 2009, 12:16 AM
Before that bolded line is said, Alar offers "many things in exchange" for their trust/help, meaning Daniel was in the room when the Eurondan's offered to trade/negotiate...so how does he not know that it's going to occur? Add to that, Daniel is in no way surprised/mad/offended when negotiations open, he only raises concerns when Jack offers something that will aid a war against an enemy they know nothing about. Daniel wasn't tricked.

The only trickery that occured in this episode was on the Eurondan's part.
Then why they waited for Daniel to leave before discussing the real pourpose of the mission? And for what reason Daniel'd be mad/surprised/offended? He was so when he understood that the real mission wasn't humanitarian. But I have no problem with that because that worked for the plot and I like this ep just for that.

Ashizuri
August 28th, 2009, 07:37 AM
Then why they waited for Daniel to leave before discussing the real pourpose of the mission? And for what reason Daniel'd be mad/surprised/offended? He was so when he understood that the real mission wasn't humanitarian. But I have no problem with that because that worked for the plot and I like this ep just for that.

Sam left the room too, were they trying to trick her as well?

Daniel would be mad/surpirsed/offended if he had been tricked or lied to, but he wasn't, he knew that the one of the reasons for the mission was in fact to gather technology. No one tricked Daniel into anything, he didn't agree with their methods, but he was well aware of what was going to happen.

But I don't suppose I'm going to be able to change your opinion anymore than you'll change mine. ;)

mrscopterdoc
March 13th, 2010, 10:25 AM
This was a better episode than I remember from the first time. Lots of conflict for each charactor but of course all is okay in the end.

Ragitsu
April 29th, 2010, 11:41 AM
This episode was pretty much the reason I got into Stargate SG-1 (one late night), and one of the best in the series.

asdf1239
May 2nd, 2010, 12:03 AM
the one thing i dont like about their decision to help blow up the city is the thousands of helpless people in the stasis pods.
also, the eurondans first-contact behavior struck me as being very remniscient of that of the atlantis team when meeting the asurans.

Ragitsu
May 2nd, 2010, 03:29 PM
the one thing i dont like about their decision to help blow up the city is the thousands of helpless people in the stasis pods.
also, the eurondans first-contact behavior struck me as being very remniscient of that of the atlantis team when meeting the asurans.

I don't think a city was destroyed.

asdf1239
May 2nd, 2010, 10:00 PM
the eurondans underground city was bombed to destruction.

Ragitsu
May 6th, 2010, 11:57 AM
the eurondans underground city was bombed to destruction.

That was a city?

asdf1239
May 9th, 2010, 12:51 AM
perhaps not, but it held a far greater population in stasis.

stargatelover4ever
June 7th, 2010, 09:23 AM
I was thinking the other day how much I miss SG-1. and how much a miss a Daniel/Jack argue.... so I decided to rewatch this episode:D love it every time!
and as much as they'd try to make O'Neill the military man type this episode proves clearly that he also has a great sense of morality. (When you stick around Daniel for so many years...:rolleyes:)

Girlbot
June 7th, 2010, 10:50 AM
This is one of my favorite episodes. I too liked the disagreements between Daniel and Jack.
The manner in which they led up to what the situation was really about was great. I cheered when Jack told them to close the iris and you heard the thump. Alar, evil incarnate.

SantaSlayer
June 7th, 2010, 12:17 PM
This is one of my favorite episodes. I too liked the disagreements between Daniel and Jack.
The manner in which they led up to what the situation was really about was great. I cheered when Jack told them to close the iris and you heard the thump. Alar, evil incarnate.

I agree, love your sig by the way. You gotta love Summer Glau when she was played a terminator. :tealc39:

maneth
September 5th, 2010, 10:08 AM
Great ep, loved the interaction between Jack and Daniel. What a bunch of evil *******s.

Stargate SG1
December 19th, 2010, 12:44 AM
I saw the episode and I was unsettled by it. Mostly because of how irrational and immoral Jack acted. First, he was unwilling to learn the most he could about the situation. Then when he learned that they have previously attempted a genocide, he went insane, and became a mass murderer war criminal, without any consideration to the consequences or his role. Granted, they were bad guys, but he was playing God, and I don't buy how much Jack can decide the current generation of them are responsible for the crimes of "his father" or even if they have some responsibillity because they are basically the same regime and somewhat changed that he must interfere in such way. In other worse, just because they are war criminals that doesn't justify war crimes, at least without the most careful consideration over the circumstances and consequences to the ones affected. The Japanese in WW2 might had done terrible crimes, but that does not excuse destroying them.

Worst, Jack murdered their leader, a man that could help earth. In any case, Jack should have instead tried to get some technology out of them and then screw them. Also, Jack seemed to had been motivated by his own rage over being deceived, or maybe self guilt or doubt that seeing things clearly.

As for Daniel, he was right, but he could have been more tactful in where he made his arguments but overall Jack rarely displayed such inexcusable irrationality as in this episode and Daniel was in general quite rational.

Also I am surprised with the reaction to this episode and to Jack's actions. The man was irrational from the start till the end of the episode. He did not make a shift from immoral to moral, if anything he was always in various levels of immorality and irrationality, some more subtle than the other and his actions were not justified under the circumstances.

Personally I would have liked an episode where Jack would face a similar situation only now destroying completely the war criminals would been presented as the wrong choice.

This along with Jack allowing Neyrti to leave free, are one of the darkest hours of Jack, in terms of how wise his decision making process was. The moral thing in this case, as hard as finding a moral solution to such a problem, is to get what we could from them and stop cooperating with them or even try to influence them to change. (Considering we have what they need the most), although that would probably be fruitless. Instead I saw everyone of the current generation being condemned to death for their and their father's actions.

FrodoFraggins
April 7th, 2011, 05:44 PM
7.5

This episode had a lot going for it, but the reset at the end was disappointing. Once again SG-1 is given the chance to get new technology and fouls it up so much that they end up with nothing. It's a tired formula devised by the writers to unnecessarily prolong earths relative primitiveness.

I found it too preachy as well. I don't think it would have been against O'Neills morals to bring the guy with him and imprison him. I'm not sure letting a man die, whether he deserved it or not, was really the moral thing to do. I think the episode would have been stronger without Odo begging to be taken along.

I also found Jack and Teal'c controlling the remote fighters to be a bit far fetched, there were certainly able bodied indivduals that would have been trained for the task.

stupidoctopus
May 11th, 2011, 05:19 PM
Okay, so before I say anything, keep in mind that I have not seen past the episode "The Other Side" in season 4 yet. I just watched it, and had this weird revelation. If it's already been addressed, in the series or otherwise, please inform me.

So, when Alar reveals the defense generator, I had deja vu. After a few minutes, I remembered a similar, if not the same, generator from "Into the Fire" (s3e1) when Carter believes that there must be some huge generator to power a facility like that.

Not only that, but both are hidden behind walls that would otherwise seem normal, meaning that the thought process was the same in building them.

Here's a picture comparison:

"The Other Side"
http://i51.tinypic.com/ziu7wh.png

"Into the Fire"
http://i52.tinypic.com/2mmcqt.jpg

Notice that both also have what would seem to be a control module in the bottom center, on a catwalk.

Thoughts? Is this some weird connection, or did they run out of stock footage for generators?

LeftHandedGuitarist
October 21st, 2011, 02:26 PM
One of Stargate's best episodes ever, and an attempt at a much more serious style of storytelling than we have seen before. It's genuinely disturbing in some respects and really puts several characters through the mill. The Jack/Daniel interaction is chilling, and Daniel's discussion with General Hammond is one of the highlights of the entire SG-1 series. Rene Auberjoinois is also on top form, and very well cast as he is just so difficult to dislike even when playing a racist warmonger.

The ending is quite unsettling. I love the look on Carter's face. It's a pretty extreme act for Jack to make, much of the episode pushes his character into a place we haven't really seen before, but RDA plays it very well.

The episode also looks amazing. Season 4 received yet another clear budget increase and this one is really atmospheric. I can't wait to listen to the commentary track on this one.

RATING: 9 out of 10

garhkal
October 22nd, 2011, 08:30 PM
It always bothered me we never saw any come back or ramifications for what jack did..

Seaboe Muffinchucker
October 23rd, 2011, 07:44 AM
It always bothered me we never saw any come back or ramifications for what jack did..
For what Jack did? Jack told him not to follow. Rene's character knew about the iris. While Jack knew his advice would be ignored, he did what he should've by giving it.

Seaboe

fems
October 23rd, 2011, 07:58 AM
Plus he basically ensured another Hitler wouldn't get through the gate and make them all look stupid when the public would find out the truth about the man (had he come through and been received as an ally). If there were any consequences they were probably commendations.

LeftHandedGuitarist
October 31st, 2011, 03:19 AM
Oh, I also noticed Mike Dopud (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0233304/) appears again in this episode as a stunt extra. He's one of the big beefy guards towards the end of the episode that Sam has a fight with. Blink-and-you'll-miss-it appearance!

Brother Freyr
November 1st, 2011, 09:28 PM
Jack: What's your impression of Alar?
Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
Jack: Like what?
Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.

;) Love that line.

Great episode. From a military standpoint, Jack screwed up not allowing Alar to come to Earth. Oh, I know Alar was a racist pig. Doesn't mean Earth couldn't benefit from his world's technology. After all, he would never have been truly trusted, nor allowed to roam freely on Earth. I wouldn't be surprised if Jack's personnel file received another reprimand.

SGSargon
November 2nd, 2011, 05:21 AM
Good episode. I liked Rene in this one.

Krisz
November 2nd, 2011, 02:23 PM
This episode is definitely one of the stand out ones of the whole series.

Starts with such a hopeful tone in that Earth has finally found an advanced civilisation willing to share technology. Then it descends slowly into a sickening distasteful truth, resulting in Jack's own distasteful act at the end with closing the Iris on Alar. The way this is done through the interaction between Jack and Daniel is brilliantly done.

'Odo' is great in this!! As a DS9 fan it was great to see him in another show I liked, in an episode that had much of the feel of the darker tones of DS9. :)

mathpiglet
November 2nd, 2011, 04:27 PM
I did not realize it was Alar hitting the iris until the folks in the commentary mentioned it. Good look on Jack's face.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
November 2nd, 2011, 04:32 PM
A filler episode of SG-1.

So SG-1 got contacted by world (technically a country) that eventually turned out to be racist. And Odo was the leader of that racist country

Stuff from the commentary:

They wanted to a live feed between Odo and the SGC. But didn't because they couldn't get the information off the screen via the camera. Eventually they found out how, though the camera's remote control, but they (Peter and James) said that the result was better off.
Brad wanted the barrel roll to get closer the the ship.


Tomorrow, a "Sexy Female alien" appears, and most of SG-1 ignore their orders and go fast.

Jae'a
November 3rd, 2011, 09:05 AM
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/18580.html)
Another Rene fan here. (Well, how can you not be?) :D
I recently got the Stargate book 'Alliances' and I just now learned that it directly follows on from this episode. I was going to wait till I'd finished another book I'm in the middle of, but now I'm thinking of reading it now. :)


It always bothered me we never saw any come back or ramifications for what jack did..
Maybe you should read it too, apparently, it deals with the concequences of what Jack does in this ep. I can't give a proper recommendation or anything, having not read it yet, but maybe just a suggestion. :)
(The book also has Jacob in it - bonus! :D )

Matt G
November 3rd, 2011, 03:57 PM
Tuesday night and another ep of SG1...

1. At first the ep seemed pretty straightforward, help people out, get new tech.

2. I'd watched enough DS9 to know of Odo but didn't recognise the actor.

3. Rewatching this, I ultimately I think Jack acted the way he did largely out the fact that the Eurondans basically pulled a fast one on SG1, particularly him.

4. Now if the Breeders had infiltrated the base and harmed the Eurondans new allies...it would have gotten very interesting.

4. Forgot Teal'c's look when he arm wrestled that guy.

5. "Close the iris" Never has Jack seemed more cold. Not going to mourn Alar though.

Very good ep.

garhkal
November 4th, 2011, 12:41 PM
For what Jack did? Jack told him not to follow. Rene's character knew about the iris. While Jack knew his advice would be ignored, he did what he should've by giving it.

Seaboe

For us losing out on their tech.

Lieutenant Sparrow
November 5th, 2011, 02:54 AM
Pretty good ep. We were so close to getting some great technology. Pity the Eurondans had to be all racist.

Alar had what was coming to him.

Nut_ty
November 5th, 2011, 03:50 PM
This episode revolves around the moral issues. It’s not just black and white. It seems like the SGC has taken the attitude that we need the technology, at any cost—almost like “we are the only planet of consequence”, like Teal’c’s line in the third season episode “Point of View”—“Our reality is the only reality of consequence”.

Why did Jack take the Eurondans’s perspective without knowing anything about the other side? He’s usually the skeptical one. No disrespect intended, IMHO, but could one factor be that the Eurondans look like the majority of SGC members ? The main characters, with the exception of Teal’c, are Anglo.

The first “meal” scene has some interesting interactions—why doesn’t Teal’c share in the toast—does his exercise really indicate his misgivings about Alar? Why is Jack so willing to give away the farm?

Daniel’s statements about the moral implications of the treaty can be justified since Jack didn’t talk to the other team members about this decision—this was Daniel’s first change to share his views, and he deeply cares about the moral aspects of any decision. Jack is more bull-headed than normal, and doesn’t want to hear Daniel. In his impatience, he really shuts Daniel down, when he barks “Shut up” at Daniel. Daniel is hurt by this order, and pulls in on himself, as displayed in his body language.

At the end Jack warns Alar to not follow them, but he doesn’t listen. When he does, and “splats” on the iris, what is Jack thinking? Is it some kind of revenge, or is it the moral equivalent of killing Hitler?

There are other factors in this episode that parallel Nazi Germany: racial purity, mass murder, and viewing the enemy as less than human.

The decisions that Jack made are similar to the USA and the other allied forces made—the disregard for the lives of civilians, as seen in the firebombing of Dresden, and the atomic bombs in Japan. There were good people on both sides, and Jack doesn’t think about the innocent individuals.

hedwig
November 5th, 2011, 04:12 PM
The first “meal” scene has some interesting interactions—why doesn’t Teal’c share in the toast—does his exercise really indicate his misgivings about Alar?

Teal'c doesn't drink alcohol.

fems
November 6th, 2011, 02:13 AM
As soon as the higher ups were aware of what the Eurondans were offering, I'm sure Jack got his orders to seal the deal and that's why he was so stubborn about everything. Up until the moment his conscience decided to step up.

dtheories
November 6th, 2011, 08:58 AM
Also, Jack seemed to have been motivated by his own rage over being deceived, or maybe self guilt or doubt (after) seeing things clearly.

That's how I saw this as well. Daniel is only pointing out that there are questions - in a slightly aggressive way - but Jack remains angry with himself after shooting down the 'enemy' pilot and overreacts.
Euronda's
On first stepping through the 'gate, Jack is met by Alar and pronounced 'savior.' And while his face shows discomfort at the idea, it's apparent he's swept away by all the toys on display and the prospect of being Earth and Euronda's hero. Daniel's alarmed that Jack's willing to compromise the principals he knows his friend is guided by, so when he recognizes the mission is not primarily humanitarian, and the war is seriously on above ground, Daniel's passion ratchets up a hundred fold. Both men end up behaving as if it's only the two of them in the conversation.

This is one of my all time fav eps. I even used it as a basis for an anthopology paper! SO much to study!

Hammond is also so good at communicating bad news in a genuine but uncompromising and unthreatening way. (Early scene explaining how the Erondan's hadn't made it through the Iris.) Don Davis really imparts to us the best that is a leader in his portrayal of the General.

Noxbait
November 6th, 2011, 11:32 AM
As soon as the higher ups were aware of what the Eurondans were offering, I'm sure Jack got his orders to seal the deal and that's why he was so stubborn about everything. Up until the moment his conscience decided to step up.

Agreed! even without all the other team drama going on...it is an excellent character study of Jack.


That's how I saw this as well. Daniel is only pointing out that there are questions - in a slightly aggressive way - but Jack remains angry with himself after shooting down the 'enemy' pilot and overreacts.
Euronda's
On first stepping through the 'gate, Jack is met by Alar and pronounced 'savior.' And while his face shows discomfort at the idea, it's apparent he's swept away by all the toys on display and the prospect of being Earth and Euronda's hero. Daniel's alarmed that Jack's willing to compromise the principals he knows his friend is guided by, so when he recognizes the mission is not primarily humanitarian, and the war is seriously on above ground, Daniel's passion ratchets up a hundred fold. Both men end up behaving as if it's only the two of them in the conversation.

This is one of my all time fav eps. I even used it as a basis for an anthopology paper! SO much to study!

Hammond is also so good at communicating bad news in a genuine but uncompromising and unthreatening way. (Early scene explaining how the Erondan's hadn't made it through the Iris.) Don Davis really imparts to us the best that is a leader in his portrayal of the General.

Love everything you say. I agree, this is one of my all time fav episodes too! I never tire of watching it. There is a lot of subtlety amongst all the passion and tension. A great team character study piece. It is always interesting to see them at odds with one another when usually you can count on them all being on the same page. I think it is a good episode to show some of the ramifications of Kinsey and the governmental pressures that are always being put on Hammond, and by turn, the team. It doesn't always get so much of a focus on how desperately they need to get tech. I don't know...it is just an interesting episode. :)

shipper hannah
November 6th, 2011, 01:46 PM
Jack is such a b*stard in this episide! :lol:

Starscape91
November 6th, 2011, 01:49 PM
I really liked this episode not just because it had Odo from DS9, but also the fact it delt with real moral issues and how far the SGC is willing to go to get advanced technology.

shipper hannah
November 6th, 2011, 01:53 PM
Plus he basically ensured another Hitler wouldn't get through the gate and make them all look stupid when the public would find out the truth about the man (had he come through and been received as an ally). If there were any consequences they were probably commendations.

Commendations? Seriously? Killing an unarmed man that is pleading for his life?

Imagine all the benefits that he would have brought with him - clean energy technology, neural interfaces, stasis technology.. they were decades ahead of us.

What Jack did was wrong, and that was made clear at the end of the episode imo.

fems
November 6th, 2011, 02:48 PM
Commendations? Seriously? Killing an unarmed man that is pleading for his life?

Imagine all the benefits that he would have brought with him - clean energy technology, neural interfaces, stasis technology.. they were decades ahead of us.

What Jack did was wrong, and that was made clear at the end of the episode imo.

Jack didn't kill him; he told him not to follow. It's not his fault Alar didn't heed his warning. Alar chose to follow them despite knowing of the iris.

The Goa'uld were also decades ahead of us and look how well getting information from them went when they held (a possessed) Conrad.

Besides, I doubt Alar would share his technology even if he had been allowed asylum (given his background I doubt he'd have gotten asylum; think Hitler would have gotten it?) once he realized what kind of place Earth was and how all sorts of people were allowed to reproduce with no regard to genetic purity.

It was obviously a somewhat controversial ending with what we have to assume is Alar hitting the iris, but I think they purposely left it at that for viewers to form their own opinions (otherwise we would have heard/seen the consequences of Jack's actions).

I think Jack did what a lot of us would do when we found ourselves in that situation...

jelgate
November 6th, 2011, 03:36 PM
I guess it would have to be genocidal racism to show something both Daniel and Jack would disgusted with as these two have different views when it comes to ethics. Even before we knew what the Eurondans were I still liked the moral question it was raised between Jack and Daniel as they argue over if its right to give them technology over when dealing when an unknown means. I can see both sides and while hindsight tells us Daniel was right given the Euroandans genocide nature it is still an interesting debate between the two as they look into this advanced species.

On the other hand I don't see what the controversial nature of Jack letting Alar slam on the iris. The guy is maniac who has shown violent tendencies and Jack warned him not follow. Why would we ever let such a dangerous person on Earth?

bookwormjules
November 6th, 2011, 05:36 PM
Another great episode, I forgot how deep they explored the moral beliefs of the characters. Jack is a very layered character, who has a shady background as a special/black ops soldier. One who at times, has to set morals aside for the greater good, no matter the cost. He may not believe in it him self, we see him struggle, but he has a mission to do, in the end he did the right thing, almost to late, but he did do it.


On the other hand I don't see what the controversial nature of Jack letting Alar slam on the iris. The guy is maniac who has shown violent tendencies and Jack warned him not follow. Why would we ever let such a dangerous person on Earth?

I don't see how it's controversial either. Jack warned Alar not to follow. When Jack was at the SGC he did what he was suppose to do, if he thought he was being pursued by the enemy - to have the iris closed. It would be no different than him having the iris closed when a Gou'uld or Jaffa (or any other enemy for that matter) were coming after him. He gave a warning, Alar choose not to head it - again, Jack was following orders which are not to let anything from another world enter the base that could be a threat.

Noxbait
November 7th, 2011, 01:51 PM
Another great episode, I forgot how deep they explored the moral beliefs of the characters. Jack is a very layered character, who has a shady background as a special/black ops soldier. One who at times, has to set morals aside for the greater good, no matter the cost. He may not believe in it him self, we see him struggle, but he has a mission to do, in the end he did the right thing, almost to late, but he did do it.

I don't see how it's controversial either. Jack warned Alar not to follow. When Jack was at the SGC he did what he was suppose to do, if he thought he was being pursued by the enemy - to have the iris closed. It would be no different than him having the iris closed when a Gou'uld or Jaffa (or any other enemy for that matter) were coming after him. He gave a warning, Alar choose not to head it - again, Jack was following orders which are not to let anything from another world enter the base that could be a threat.

Agreed on all counts. I think this was a very hard mission for one and all and I don't think Jack wanted it to end the way it did. And that includes Alar's death. Just a very unfortunate, sticky mess of a mission.

shipper hannah
November 7th, 2011, 03:43 PM
Jack didn't kill him; he told him not to follow. It's not his fault Alar didn't heed his warning. Alar chose to follow them despite knowing of the iris.

Jack knew he was going to follow, because he was facing certain death, and closed the iris anyway.



The Goa'uld were also decades ahead of us and look how well getting information from them went when they held (a possessed) Conrad.

Besides, I doubt Alar would share his technology even if he had been allowed asylum (given his background I doubt he'd have gotten asylum; think Hitler would have gotten it?) once he realized what kind of place Earth was and how all sorts of people were allowed to reproduce with no regard to genetic purity.

He was offering to tell them everything he knows. But whether he was or not does not excuse Jack's actions.

Alar was obviously raised in a society that values 'genetic purity' - he did not exist in a vacuum, he was a product of his environment. You don't know that had he actually been exposed to a society that values diversity and equality that he would have seen the errors of those teachings.



It was obviously a somewhat controversial ending with what we have to assume is Alar hitting the iris, but I think they purposely left it at that for viewers to form their own opinions (otherwise we would have heard/seen the consequences of Jack's actions).

I think Jack did what a lot of us would do when we found ourselves in that situation...

It was pretty clear that the spike we saw on his screen was Alar hitting the iris.

Jack was not a bad man, but he did a bad thing.

shipper hannah
November 7th, 2011, 03:44 PM
On the other hand I don't see what the controversial nature of Jack letting Alar slam on the iris. The guy is maniac who has shown violent tendencies and Jack warned him not follow. Why would we ever let such a dangerous person on Earth?

Hang on, what violent tendencies?

hedwig
November 7th, 2011, 04:56 PM
Th
On first stepping through the 'gate, Jack is met by Alar and pronounced 'savior.' And while his face shows discomfort at the idea, it's apparent he's swept away by all the toys on display and the prospect of being Earth and Euronda's hero.

Jack wouldn't be "swept away" by the prospect of being anyone's hero; he's not that kind of person. He'd rather skip that sort of stuff completely. If he was "swept away" by anything, it might have been the toys and medicine. But he wouldn't be willing to sell out earth just to get those things.

hlndncr
November 8th, 2011, 02:56 PM
What Jack did could be prosecuteable as murder or at the very least manslaughter under the UCMJ (assuming you could make the argument for jurisdiction). It was a very serious action to take and I think was rather glossed over.

Daniel shouldn't get a break here either. Civilian or not he was questioning his commander in the field quite vocally in front of outside/third-party forces. (Jack had done nothing illegal or untoward at this point.) That's a serious breach of protocol at the very least, and certainly undiplomatic. Then he continued to snark at Sam and General Hammond. Daniel's behavior was out of line. Jack was right to tell him to "Shut up." There were avenues for him to raise appropriate objections. He didn't take them.

fems
November 8th, 2011, 03:05 PM
What Jack did could be prosecuteable as murder or at the very least manslaughter under the UCMJ (assuming you could make the argument for jurisdiction).

Yeah, jurisdiction would be pretty difficult considering the man wasn't even on Earth (iris doesn't allow matter to fully reintegrate after all) :P

But honestly, like others have pointed out this isn't the first time they close the iris on the enemy, be that when they're in pursuit or random attacks.

hlndncr
November 8th, 2011, 03:10 PM
Yeah, jurisdiction would be pretty difficult considering the man wasn't even on Earth (iris doesn't allow matter to fully reintegrate after all) :P

But honestly, like others have pointed out this isn't the first time they close the iris on the enemy, be that when they're in pursuit or random attacks.

Heat of battle and rules of engagement make all the difference.

As for jurisdiction, location of the crime could be argued as earth because he hit the iris which is on our planet. Jack's position in the AF could also give you jurisdiction regardless of location (US soil is not necessary).

fems
November 9th, 2011, 01:28 AM
But how to prove it was actually Alar that hit the iris? There's no telling who it was and there's no body. One could argue he committed suicide knowing the iris was there and that his worst enemy was winning the war, probably coming for him and he'd rather kill himself this way than let those awful, genetically impure Breeders get him...

hlndncr
November 9th, 2011, 05:45 AM
But how to prove it was actually Alar that hit the iris? There's no telling who it was and there's no body. One could argue he committed suicide knowing the iris was there and that his worst enemy was winning the war, probably coming for him and he'd rather kill himself this way than let those awful, genetically impure Breeders get him...

I think you have enough evidence to draw a valid conclusion that it was Alar. Proving suicide would be difficult. Jack's statement to not follow is a very ambiguous warning. He could not have known his death was certain, and given his desperation to save himself just a few moments before it would be difficult to establish Alar has a suicidal state of mind.

There are all sorts of factors that would make it an extremely interesting case.

If I were still coaching a trial ad team I would be tempted to write it up for a mock trial.

hedwig
November 9th, 2011, 09:00 AM
Daniel shouldn't get a break here either. Civilian or not he was questioning his commander in the field quite vocally in front of outside/third-party forces. (Jack had done nothing illegal or untoward at this point.) That's a serious breach of protocol at the very least, and certainly undiplomatic. Then he continued to snark at Sam and General Hammond. Daniel's behavior was out of line. Jack was right to tell him to "Shut up." There were avenues for him to raise appropriate objections. He didn't take them.

I'm not defending Daniel, because I think he was way out of line. But, ... this is who he is and how he acts pretty much all the time. He never stops to think about what's coming out of his mouth or what it's going to sound like to others in the general area. He pretty much thinks he has a right, at any time, to attack what he thinks is wrong, and he doesn't care who gets in his way. Which makes him a bit of an ass, as far as I'm concerned. The unfortunate thing many times is he's allowed to get away with it by everyone. He often doesn't make a very good case for his argument, and yet Hammond often gives him an okay.

Regardless of rules, regulations, and so forth, I think Jack would be exhonerated of any wrongdoing in this case, or maybe gotten a slap on the wrist and a notation put in his file about the incident.

As an afterthought, SG1 was running away from a battle. They were being shot at by Alar's people, who would have killed them if they'd been able to. Regardless of if it was just Alar left begging for them to take him along, there was always the possibility of some of Alar's people running down that corridor toward the gate, and by Jack ordering the iris closed, it stopped Alar and anyone else from coming through. That sort of thing was done when SG1 was being pursued by Jaffa on other planets, who wound up being smushed against the iris. I honestly don't see this as being that much different.

Brother Freyr
November 9th, 2011, 02:41 PM
But how to prove it was actually Alar that hit the iris?


I think you have enough evidence to draw a valid conclusion that it was Alar. Proving suicide would be difficult [...] There are all sorts of factors that would make it an extremely interesting case.

From the POV of military superiors, Alar's death isn't the main concern. It's being deprived of his technical knowledge. They would have traded him a comfortable captivity in return for tech advancement.

hedwig
November 9th, 2011, 04:27 PM
From the POV of military superiors, Alar's death isn't the main concern. It's being deprived of his technical knowledge. They would have traded him a comfortable captivity in return for tech advancement.

That assumes he actually had all that specific knowledge tucked away in his brain and could be able to tell the military in detail how to build and use that tech, and how to create and use the medical info.

Brother Freyr
November 11th, 2011, 08:35 AM
yes, no doubt his personal technical knowledge is limited. but even where it is, he'd possess basic ideas that would point our scientists in exciting new directions.

Seaboe Muffinchucker
November 11th, 2011, 09:57 AM
yes, no doubt his personal technical knowledge is limited. but even where it is, he'd possess basic ideas that would point our scientists in exciting new directions.

But do they need him? Sam and Daniel spoke with the scientists and both Jack and Teal'c tried the remote control fighters.

Seaboe

garhkal
November 11th, 2011, 01:31 PM
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/18580.html)
Another Rene fan here. (Well, how can you not be?) :D
I recently got the Stargate book 'Alliances' and I just now learned that it directly follows on from this episode. I was going to wait till I'd finished another book I'm in the middle of, but now I'm thinking of reading it now. :)


Maybe you should read it too, apparently, it deals with the concequences of what Jack does in this ep. I can't give a proper recommendation or anything, having not read it yet, but maybe just a suggestion. :)
(The book also has Jacob in it - bonus! :D )

Wow.. never knew that.. Might have to look it up in my local library.


As soon as the higher ups were aware of what the Eurondans were offering, I'm sure Jack got his orders to seal the deal and that's why he was so stubborn about everything. Up until the moment his conscience decided to step up.

And that's the part i am wondering about. He obviously got orders to "make it happen", but ignores them, not only breaking the deal, but the device which had the info in it.

Dave2
November 18th, 2011, 09:02 AM
If the surface of the planet was poisoned, how did the "enemy," the Breeders take over most of the planet and survive up there?? The visuals show the Breeders bombing buildings on the surface. What would be the point of that if Alar's people were deep underground?
Why didn't SG1 try to establish contact with the Breeders faking an attempt at diplomacy?
Why would the stargate be located in a tunnel instead of outside?

Then there is another issue: O'Neill decided to doom Alar and all the stasised people to destruction because of their racist ideas, without any hope that they could even change their minds, and without a diplomatic option. I think this is also a bit problematic. Why didn't the new "allies" from Earth seek to enforce a surrender instead??

Seaboe Muffinchucker
November 18th, 2011, 10:47 AM
If the surface of the planet was poisoned, how did the "enemy," the Breeders take over most of the planet and survive up there??

Within the context of the show, no one knows.

Seaboe

shipper hannah
November 18th, 2011, 01:03 PM
But do they need him? Sam and Daniel spoke with the scientists and both Jack and Teal'c tried the remote control fighters.

Seaboe

Just because you can use an iPod doesn't mean you understand the mechanisms of how they work.

shipper hannah
November 18th, 2011, 01:05 PM
I'm reading the Stargate novel Alliances right now. I'm interested to see how it deals with the issues raised.

The Other Side is one of my favourite episodes.

Seaboe Muffinchucker
November 18th, 2011, 04:33 PM
Just because you can use an iPod doesn't mean you understand the mechanisms of how they work.

But the same is true of Alar. Without the plans etc. in the weird crystal thing, how much more could they really do with him than without him?

Seaboe

Brother Freyr
November 18th, 2011, 09:26 PM
But the same is true of Alar. Without the plans etc. in the weird crystal thing, how much more could they really do with him than without him?

The short answer is they'll never know, a fact that would surely irritate Jack's superiors. ;)

Dimes
December 27th, 2011, 03:17 PM
Good episode.
The bad guys they tried to help reminded me of Nazi's tho.

Major Clanger
May 7th, 2013, 01:19 AM
I love this ep. This is the kind of thing that the early seasons of Stargate were developing and it came good at the end of S3 and through S4 and into S5. Not everything is black and white and the people who control the stargate aren't necessarily speaking for the whole planet (hmmm remind you of anyone?)

It shows just how desperate the SGC and the US government were to get their hands on weapons technology, that they were ready to hand it over with relatively little in the way of background checking.

What was impressive about this was the tension between Jack and Daniel and I am really looking forward to seeing that developed through S4, as well as the position that Sam is in - she's military she's a scientist, she wants to get her hands on the tech, she knows we need the weapons but it's not black and white. Daniel gets a bit too airy fairy for me sometimes and I think that's why Jack goes too far the other way, although he was great in this ep as soon as he heard "not like us".

Good stuff.

ETA: and, of course it has Teal'c's brilliant line abut concealing things

Falcon Horus
June 12th, 2013, 02:34 PM
Lots of food for thought here with this episode. Politically, socially and how far are we willing to go to get the technology we seek. Some really interesting dilemma's at play. Tension between all the characters. That stare between Carter and O'Neill at the end when he demands the iris be closed, they just know the dude's right behind them and are about to kill him. They did tell him not to follow which we knew he wouldn't listen to. In fact, even I was rooting for Jack to close the iris.

They were committing both genocide and genetic cleansing... not the kind of people I would want our guys to trade with.

I really love the depth of this episode, and definitely has a place among the favorites.

Also, really really enjoyed the first person view when O'Neill's flying that unmanned bomber.

ajay
April 6th, 2014, 07:53 AM
Interesting episode.

Was it really necessary for SG-1 to destroy the underground facility in order to escape? I feel there was an opportunity to just walk away once they learned of what Alar's people were doing. Of course, that opportunity disappeared once Alar drew weapons on Sam and Daniel. But by destroying the facility behind them, effectively killing an entire race, a majority of which were in stasis with no means to defend themselves... once again, they fought a war without knowing the full story.

Falcon Horus
April 6th, 2014, 08:00 AM
... once again, they fought a war without knowing the full story.

You mean, how the people in the bunker were committing genocide on the people on the surface?

The "Arian" race considering themselves pure and clean, cloning themselves in order to keep this perfection intact, and to not fall prey to the unclean on the surface fighting for survival and against being exterminated. Looked like they were winning. SG1 just gave them a fighting chance by not assisting the bunker-folk.

ajay
April 6th, 2014, 09:57 AM
You mean, how the people in the bunker were committing genocide on the people on the surface?

Right. SG-1 unwittingly joined the war on the side of the "Arians" without fully knowing the details. Then, at the end of the episode, they essentially joined the side of the "Surface People", again not knowing the full details. Who's to say the surface people weren't "evil" in one way or another?


The "Arian" race considering themselves pure and clean, cloning themselves in order to keep this perfection intact, and to not fall prey to the unclean on the surface fighting for survival and against being exterminated. Looked like they were winning. SG1 just gave them a fighting chance by not assisting the bunker-folk.

I'd be ok with it if it was just a fighting chance they gave to the surface people. But by the looks of it, that entire underground facility was destroyed when the shield generator failed and Jack crashed the fighter plane into it. And in doing so, every one of the "Arians" was killed. Is that not also Genocide in a way?

I'm definitely not on the side of Alar. And I was rooting for Jack to close the iris on him in the end. But something in this episode smacks of hypocrisy.

garhkal
April 6th, 2014, 02:29 PM
Right. SG-1 unwittingly joined the war on the side of the "Arians" without fully knowing the details. Then, at the end of the episode, they essentially joined the side of the "Surface People", again not knowing the full details. Who's to say the surface people weren't "evil" in one way or another?



I'd be ok with it if it was just a fighting chance they gave to the surface people. But by the looks of it, that entire underground facility was destroyed when the shield generator failed and Jack crashed the fighter plane into it. And in doing so, every one of the "Arians" was killed. Is that not also Genocide in a way?


Exactly. While yes being "Arians" they were bad wanting genetic purity, but i forget who were the ones who poisoned the surface..

Krisz
April 6th, 2014, 05:43 PM
Exactly. While yes being "Arians" they were bad wanting genetic purity, but i forget who were the ones who poisoned the surface..

It was the 'Aryans', Sam noticed the shafts going up to the surface in the schematics and when she realised what their function was, that's when Alar pulled the gun on her.

fems
April 8th, 2014, 03:52 AM
Alar's people themselves pretty much said they were trying to exterminate the other race on their planet simply for not adhering to their idea of genetic purity. I don't think another side of the story was needed when you heard those folk talking about the others. It would have been like trying to reason with Hitler, only worse since many (if not all) of them grew up in that underground facility and were basically indoctrinated from birth.

Besta
August 31st, 2014, 01:10 AM
Why did they have to use whites as the bad guys? Surely they could have used anther racial group as the racists and demonstrate that the act is wrong and not the man himself. This just further propagates that whites are evil by default as even on the other planet this particular switch flicked in them. Maybe somebody preferred the company of whites on set instead.

garhkal
August 31st, 2014, 10:43 PM
Perhaps the writers felt it might stir up too much of an issue if they say went with blacks or hispanics being the baddies.

Seaboe Muffinchucker
September 2nd, 2014, 10:30 AM
The racism in this episode is not dependent on white, black, purple or yellow. It's intended to show that there is "us" and "them." Plus, it was inspired by the Third Reich, which was Aryan and thought perfect was blond hair and blue eyes.

Seaboe

hedwig
September 2nd, 2014, 03:22 PM
Why did they have to use whites as the bad guys? Surely they could have used anther racial group as the racists and demonstrate that the act is wrong and not the man himself. This just further propagates that whites are evil by default as even on the other planet this particular switch flicked in them. Maybe somebody preferred the company of whites on set instead.

Why not the "white guys"? We frequently are the bad guys in real life. :)

StargateMillennium
September 2nd, 2014, 04:56 PM
It's easier this way. If they made the Eurondons another color, there'd be some big and stupid controversy over it. They make them white and no one cares.

majorsal
September 2nd, 2014, 05:03 PM
It's easier this way. If they made the Eurondons another color, there'd be some big and stupid controversy over it. They make them white and no one cares.

yeah.

but either way, someone(s) will complain.

Seaboe Muffinchucker
September 4th, 2014, 06:20 AM
but either way, someone(s) will complain.

True, that. Look how many people complain that the wrote out the Nox, or never went back to Ernest's planet, or didn't bring back this or that minor character more often.

Seaboe