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LincolnFord
August 13th, 2005, 05:09 PM
I see from the descriptions by Sci-Fi the episode "Aurora" might give the team hope because its mentions the crew discovered a weakness in Wraith technology. The first time I saw that the Wraith ships are partly biological it occurred to me that the best way to attack the wraith is with biological weapons.

Lord ┬žokar
August 13th, 2005, 06:05 PM
It's sadenning. I cannot stress enough what an intensely stupid idea biological warships are.

jaden10
August 13th, 2005, 06:16 PM
While I am forced to agree with the stupidity of Biological based ship and technology. There are perks to them compaired to non biological based technology.

Biological based ships and technology can be self healing, that is if they have something on the line of a immunity. Look at Startreks Species 8472 and the breem, they could have been in concept self healing, however I don't remember anything being brought up dealing with that.

Biological based technology could in concept grow to fit the needs, Need more memory storage? introduct a growth hormone. Bigger Ship? Same deal.

There are good point and bad point, but I don't see the pluses out weighing the bad. That is of course if you can make it inpervious to viruses and and biological weapons.

And I am amped to see this Ancient warship. May prove very helpful to the SGC and Earth as a whole when it comes to defense technology against the Orii and the Lucian Alliance and whom ever else may be a threat, uncluding any Goa'uld that may still be hiding in the shadows that we may not know of yet.

captain keys
August 13th, 2005, 06:28 PM
yeah the acients have no need for it they have self healin powers

Salas1
August 14th, 2005, 07:44 AM
This is maybe a bit stupid to say as I'm talking about the stargate universe but isn't having a Biological ship sort of farfetched, it seems the whole of farscape has joined the stargate universe, the actors have gone to SG-1 and the ship has gone to Atlantis, all we need now is a peacekeeper organisation that dress in shiny leathery latex suits and have crap spaceships.

valha'lla
August 14th, 2005, 07:47 AM
Well bio ships can be grown farst as stated above u also have to take into acount that they can adapt to situations mabey including nukes being teloported inside. Also some biolodical materials have some incrediable properties such as spiders web which has incrediable densile strength more so than steal and many other metals.

Auralis
August 14th, 2005, 08:28 AM
Bioship sand bioueber tech is one of the most used cliches of scifi in recent decades.
Now, if that would be something like the biodreads tech from Captain power, living metal, not biological biotech. that would be much nicer.

Lord ┬žokar
August 14th, 2005, 05:02 PM
Mmm, "living metal" is so much easier to swallow. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/Niles/rolleyes.gif

Lightsabre
August 14th, 2005, 08:10 PM
It's sadenning. I cannot stress enough what an intensely stupid idea biological warships are.
Could you elaborate on that? I can see many advantages to bio ships.

MarshAngel
August 14th, 2005, 08:17 PM
Every time you create a TV show especially a scifi show does not mean you're going to be reinventing the wheel. Just because something has been used before doesn't mean it's a worthless idea or that it's going to be done in the exact same way. If originality was the central theme of television programming we wouldn't have any.

Just what else are you going to make a ship out of that's going to be original at this point, wood? You have metal or similar, biology, or a combination of the two. We've already seen the metal ones in the show, it only stands to reason at some point we're going to have to see the alternative just for the sake of spicing things up.

I'm not even sure how "living metal" is any different from bio-tech. It's alive, which makes it a biological component. Unless you're talking about that liquid metal type stuff from Terminator. In which case, that would be really cool and I'm betting a pain in the ass and the pocket for the special effects people.

JanusAncient
August 14th, 2005, 08:57 PM
Well, it would explain why the Wraith were able to advance to a point, where they were able to rival, and outnumber the Ancients. If there ships can be grown, from some biological material, they would only need the right environment to produce an armada of ships. I just want to know what the Ancient ship looks like, if they will help, where they will go if they choose not to get involved, will they ascend, there are so many questions that this episode can potentially answer, I only hope it responds to a few.

randy
August 14th, 2005, 10:16 PM
How about nanites as "living metal"? Nanites repair ruptured hulls when damaged from energy attacks.

_Owen_
August 15th, 2005, 09:51 PM
It's sadenning. I cannot stress enough what an intensely stupid idea biological warships are.
I would have to agree with you here. With a biological ship all you have to do is make it sick or kill it, which would likley be far easier than destroying it like other ships. With a virus or something similar, it would likley loose some capabilites and if it gets sick enough it will die.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
August 16th, 2005, 12:55 AM
I would have to agree with you here. With a biological ship all you have to do is make it sick or kill it, which would likley be far easier than destroying it like other ships. With a virus or something similar, it would likley loose some capabilites and if it gets sick enough it will die.

Owen Macri
Whcih means you need a high level of bioengineering.
ALso, how are you going to deliver it??
WHat if my bio-ship has an immune system??

Some advantages of bio ships.
LImited self direction
Self repairing.
A bio ship will go to greater lengths to save you than a metal one.
fuel can be gathered from things as cheap as the sun.
ability to create many at a time.

Quartz
August 16th, 2005, 01:11 AM
What people seem to forget about the concept of space-bourne biologial entities/ships is that they'd have evolved tremendous resistance to radiation and physical harm. A lifeform that traversed the naked environment of space would have trememdous abilities and defenses. Traversing space would be far riskier than most people realize. There would be asteroids and miniscule objects travelling far faster than they would in an atmosphere and of course huge amounts of radiation unfiltered by an atmosphere. Furthermore, if they actually existed, they'd be far more intelligent than us and much more long-lived.

lethalfang
August 16th, 2005, 02:49 AM
WHat if my bio-ship has an immune system??


Take a page out of human medical troubles: HIV that sucker.

Catalase
August 16th, 2005, 04:14 AM
From stardestroyer.net:



"Captain, I'm picking up an approaching ship."

"What can you tell me about it?"

"Oh my God, it's organic! What are we going to do, Captain?"

"There's not much we can do, Ensign. Organic technology is so far beyond our grasp that we can't even imagine the power they must have. All we have is high-powered guns, nuclear missiles, and our primitive metallic armour. What are you reading from their incredibly advanced bio-ship?"

"Their ship is soft and flexible. Its construction materials are semi-permeable and laced with a network of delicate circulation passages. Instead of using impermeable high-density materials, it's made from countless tiny thin-walled cells which tend to rapidly break down in the presence of corrosive chemicals or radiation."

"What? And we were supposed to be afraid of this? Open fire!"

Three PhDs
August 16th, 2005, 05:02 AM
Whcih means you need a high level of bioengineering.
ALso, how are you going to deliver it??
WHat if my bio-ship has an immune system??The good tribespeople of the Amazon rainforest also had immune systems, but they died when introduced to the common cold.

nayo'nak
August 16th, 2005, 08:00 AM
ok bio tec can be teribly bad but also good read star wars the new jedi order
the bad guys in that had bio teck that kicked major ass they had too be overwwhelmed by suppirior numbers

spoilers





last chance






the ships are made from a super strong coral whitch can die dosnt matter the engenes are creatures that minipulate gravity to propel the ships or creat defencive mini black holes

there missles were small creature that eat metal and plastics certain death to a ship that loses sheilds they can then atack more ships

the advantages were healing and the abilitey to adapt but a bio wepon did cause alot of damage but so can computer viruses

so bio tec dose work if done right

MarshAngel
August 16th, 2005, 12:26 PM
I see much evidence of limited imagination. Why must it be all of one and none of the other? Humans wear armor, just as a ship can, and we have intelligence to fix our bodies when they break as any engineer can. Why can't a ship be made up of both biological and mechanical parts and why must it automatically fall victim to any common cold virus we throw its way. Have you ever tried to give an ant the common cold? What goes for humans doesn't automatically translate to all life.

Revisit the Wraith, here you have a species that doesn't die as long as it's well fed, heals at an amazing rate and can kick butt. If you can incorporate their best features into a ship I think you have something pretty damn handy, at the least equal to and in some ways better than non-bio ships. If it's so easy to give any biological unit an infection and kill it, then we should be focusing on giving the Wraith a virus, but we're not because it's obviously not that easy.

Given the variety of life on Earth, its ability to survive adversity, and the varying features of them all I'm surprised it's so naturally assumed that biology must fail at a greater rate than technology or that any biological unit created/born to space would be any less able to survive its environment and protect itself than those on Earth.

_Owen_
August 16th, 2005, 12:45 PM
Yes, while there are certain advantages, there are also disadvantages, and while a bio ship may have some potential, there are also very large inherent dangers. It would be something worth researching, however, without large advancements in medicine, it would be relativly easy to kill.

Owen Macri

MarshAngel
August 16th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Yes, while there are certain advantages, there are also disadvantages, and while a bio ship may have some potential, there are also very large inherent dangers. It would be something worth researching, however, without large advancements in medicine, it would be relativly easy to kill.

Owen Macri
That's assuming we're the one's building it and in the near future. I don't think it's a fair assumption since we can't currently build a manned space craft to leave our solar system.

Large advancements in medicine is a given since in order to build a bio-ship you'd have to be at a level where you can protect it as well to say little of other consideration. I don't see how you can determine the ease by which something can be killed when you haven't yet determined how it will be created, and therefore what it will be capable of.

_Owen_
August 16th, 2005, 01:09 PM
Yes, I wonder, if it is biological, you would probably have to feed it too...

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
August 16th, 2005, 03:07 PM
Yes, while there are certain advantages, there are also disadvantages, and while a bio ship may have some potential, there are also very large inherent dangers. It would be something worth researching, however, without large advancements in medicine, it would be relativly easy to kill.

Owen Macri
Owen, you disappoint me.
This just isn't logical.
IF I can create a creature that can travel through space, please tell me how you can easily kill it??
Virus?? My ship has an immune system.
How else??
Please bear in mind that current earth technology couldn't create soemthing liek this. How are they supposed to kill it???

_Owen_
August 24th, 2005, 11:51 PM
The immune system is allways vulnerable. Everyone has an immune system yet the black plauge killed millions of people, more than world war one and two combined.

I could destroy its' immune system buy giving it AIDS, or I could introduce tretonin to its' system which replaces the immune system then take it away, and then give it a nasty flu, wich, without an immune system will have a very strong effect.

Or being a bioship, it would seem far easier to pierce the "hull" unless the "ship" had a very thick, tough exterior.

Owen Macri

lethalfang
August 25th, 2005, 12:38 AM
I just want to add another element to this discussion: organic does NOT mean biological.
On earth, organic merely means "carbon containing molecules."

Several points:
Not all organic materials are "soft" in nature.
Most organic materials are as difficult of a target for biological entities as any other materials, i.e. you cannot find a virus that kills something that is not living, albeit organic.
Materials that are capable of self-regeneration do not have to be organic, i.e. finite crystal-like materials, and something of more sophistication is also possible.

Lightsabre
August 25th, 2005, 02:57 AM
The immune system is allways vulnerable. Everyone has an immune system yet the black plauge killed millions of people, more than world war one and two combined.

I could destroy its' immune system buy giving it AIDS, or I could introduce tretonin to its' system which replaces the immune system then take it away, and then give it a nasty flu, wich, without an immune system will have a very strong effect.

Or being a bioship, it would seem far easier to pierce the "hull" unless the "ship" had a very thick, tough exterior.

Owen Macri
ok.
1)Why the hell would I build a bioship with a 'soft' hull???
That's just stupid. Tree are alive, yet they have tough 'skin'.
Turtles are alive, and they have thick shells.
Rhino's have tough skin, so do Armadillo's.
Do I need to continue???
2)How exactly are you going to give my ship AIDS??? It's in space. How exactly are you going to infect it?? What are you going to do if my ship's immune system fights off the AIDS?
3)Yes, the immune system is vulnerable, it's also amazingly clever.
Want to know why you don't get Chicken Pox twice? Or measles?
Cause once your body has fought it off once, it can do it again. Faster and stronger. You are 'immune' to that strain of the disease.
Now, if I can make a bioship that can flly in space, I can give it an immune system that can keep it safe.

MarshAngel
August 25th, 2005, 07:10 AM
Here's something I don't understand, Why would you assume that you could give a HUMAN disease to an ALIEN ship? Have you ever tried giving a spider AIDS? Can they get AIDS? Can a fish get the common cold?
You can't base your assessment of another species' ability to defend itself against disease on your own. It makes no sense. For all you know the AIDS virus might not even register as harmful to another species, never mind the fact that AIDS isn't exactly an instant kill.

We've already established that one humanoid speices, The Wraith, is essentially invulnerable to human diseases. So if that one species isn't going to die from our disease why would you assume that another alien species will?

I agree why would you make a space ship with a soft hull? Just because it's alive does not mean it doesn't have natural armor of its own or couldn't have artificial armor to protect itself.

_Owen_
August 25th, 2005, 09:56 AM
Allright, I knew it would be stupid to build a bio ship with a soft hull, but you never know...

Ok, maybe not AIDS, but if we introduced Tretonin to the imune system of the ship it would replace the immune system and if tretonin is not introduced regularly the ship will die because its' immune system will not be there because tretonin replaces the immune system, so then you could give it a relativley simple disease and it would die.

Or you could give the ship radiation poisoning causing its atomic structure to break down. Or you could give it cancer, which is just when cells grow out of proportion, so it could effect even the bioship.

Owen Macri

lethalfang
August 25th, 2005, 11:48 AM
Here's something I don't understand, Why would you assume that you could give a HUMAN disease to an ALIEN ship? Have you ever tried giving a spider AIDS? Can they get AIDS? Can a fish get the common cold?
You can't base your assessment of another species' ability to defend itself against disease on your own. It makes no sense. For all you know the AIDS virus might not even register as harmful to another species, never mind the fact that AIDS isn't exactly an instant kill.

We've already established that one humanoid speices, The Wraith, is essentially invulnerable to human diseases. So if that one species isn't going to die from our disease why would you assume that another alien species will?

I agree why would you make a space ship with a soft hull? Just because it's alive does not mean it doesn't have natural armor of its own or couldn't have artificial armor to protect itself.

D'oh. AIDS as an example is the not exactly the point and should've never been taken literally.
The point is the CONCEPT, that a virus can be designed to attack the immune system.
Of course, we are making major assumptions here. We are assuming the ship is biological rather than merely organic, although the whole concept of being organic is rather vague as well.

MarshAngel
August 25th, 2005, 12:58 PM
I understood quite clearly that it was an example.

It doesn't matter if the disease is AIDS, Hodgkins, MS, or schizophrenia. The point really is that in order to easily destroy something by way of a virus you must know beforehand what they'll be vulnerable to. You have to understand their physiology in order to have something on hand to defeat it. I haven't met a spacefaring being yet so I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that if I sneeze on it it will die. It's possible but not absolute.

Obviously a space faring biological entity is going to be extremely diferent from anything we've ever come across, so to assume that we'd have the ability to just toss any virus its way and defeat it is very presumptive.; just as it is presumptive that an alien immune system isn't more efficient than our own or that a space faring being is so easily overcome by radiation or a cold.

As I've said before, if it were that easy to find a virus to defeat an alien species then I doubt the Wraith would still be here because I'm sure someone has tried.

The whole concept of an organic ship is vague which is why the assumption that it could be easily defeated is kind of ridiculous.

_Owen_
August 25th, 2005, 01:52 PM
Technically, everything can be easily detroyed, seeing as, one thing may be difficult to us, where as it may be a cakewalk for a higher being.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
August 25th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Allright, I knew it would be stupid to build a bio ship with a soft hull, but you never know...

Ok, maybe not AIDS, but if we introduced Tretonin to the imune system of the ship it would replace the immune system and if tretonin is not introduced regularly the ship will die because its' immune system will not be there because tretonin replaces the immune system, so then you could give it a relativley simple disease and it would die.

Or you could give the ship radiation poisoning causing its atomic structure to break down. Or you could give it cancer, which is just when cells grow out of proportion, so it could effect even the bioship.

Owen Macri
Yup. Tretonin would do that. KNow how much yuo need?
What kind of relatively simple virus??
And,yet again, how are you going to deliver it? I mean, my ship has a tough hull, shields, weapons. WHat are you going to do, spacewalk up to it and jab it with a needle??
YEs, as a way to attack bioships, depressing the immune system would work very well. But it's not as cut and dried as you think.
You may remember that what started this was an off the cuff comment from Sokar that Bioships are useless. Well, I think we've proven pretty conclusively that they aren't.
OWen, if my ship can survive in space, it can survive radiation. I would design it that way, since space is full of hard radiation. Ditto cancer. I would make sure my ship wasn't vulnerable to it.[
YOu keep throwing out all these diseases that are killing humans and seem to be saying, well, we'd somehow give it to the ship and it would magically die.
even if you gave my ship cancer, cancer takes a while to kill.
I'd certainly blow up your ship an dkill you before I realised mine was dying.
From a practical ]point of view, the fact you seem to need such specialised weapons to kill my bioship means that it's obviously superior. All I need are laser and missiles.

_Owen_
August 25th, 2005, 02:01 PM
You know what. I appoligize, I just realized the immense stupidity of my point. A bioship created properly would be just as hard or just as easy to destroy than a regular ship. I'm sorry.

Owen Macri

Olinne
August 25th, 2005, 02:05 PM
It seems to be easier to destroy it with one of these ancients' weapons (the siege part 1 for example) isn't it?? :D

MarshAngel
August 25th, 2005, 02:25 PM
Yes but you can also destroy a solar system and all therein with an ancient weapon.:)

It seems anything can be destroyed by accident by arrogance and idiocy (mckay). :) Now try doing it on purpose... never works.

_Owen_
August 27th, 2005, 10:46 PM
Well, that is only if a Zero Point Module overloads. For all those who have seen trinity, that explosion only took out five sixths of that particular solar system...

Owen Macri

MarshAngel
August 28th, 2005, 03:20 PM
Yeah but you said 'if. As long as there is an idiot involved, this 'if' is a possibility. There are few things in the universe that are truly idiot-proof. It's a modern myth like the non-spill cup. :)

Supreme Thor
August 28th, 2005, 04:12 PM
Well, that is only if a Zero Point Module overloads. For all those who have seen trinity, that explosion only took out five sixths of that particular solar system...

Owen Macri
Yeah, only five sixths of the solar system. lol

Tain
August 28th, 2005, 05:43 PM
I never really considered the Wraith ships to be living, just that they were built organically. Kind of like growing a fruit on a tree, picking the fruit, and then somehow "curing" it to be like metal. As in once the wraith ships are done being constructed, the organic process ceases, the ship is outfitted and then sent on its way. The result is a very organic looking, and very non living ship.

vonbismarck
August 28th, 2005, 06:27 PM
I don't know if people are still arguing this point or not but if the ship is/was living wouldn't you need to capture one (hopefully alive) so that you could study how it works to come up with a disease that could harm it?

Lightsabre
August 28th, 2005, 10:34 PM
I don't know if people are still arguing this point or not but if the ship is/was living wouldn't you need to capture one (hopefully alive) so that you could study how it works to come up with a disease that could harm it?
Possibly/probably.
But how is that different from needing to figure out how your enemy's tech works??

vonbismarck
August 28th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Possibly/probably.
But how is that different from needing to figure out how your enemy's tech works??
Not really different at all, just harder to do (if you need the ship alive that is anyway). Also, I would think it would be easier to study how an enemy's tech works than how an alien being works (although with all that ancient tech, it could be quite easy for all I know).