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LincolnFord
August 13th, 2005, 01:33 PM
The atlantis expedition team found out they could accurately(right on the money) calculate when the Wraith would have to drop out of hyperspace to recharge their engines and the Daedalus destroyed a couple of hive ships using this knowledge. I hope I wasn't the only one thinking to myself "Gee, all the Atlanteans had to do was do the same thing with their most powerful warships and they would have destroyed the wraith without much hassle.

I think this is a clear sign that it was the Atlaneans arrogance and reliance on their "superior" tech that did them in. There is something to be said about he Wraith's and our hunger for war when you are actually in one.

Colonel Sharp
August 13th, 2005, 01:38 PM
Yeah, I thought about that too, but as said in the episodes, the Ancients could win every battle, but they could not win the war, they were vastly out numbered.

Major Tyler
August 13th, 2005, 01:40 PM
I'm not so sure it was arrogance as much as it was inexperience. The Lanteans aren't warriors by any stretch. Being the most powerful race around, they've never really had to fight many difficult battles or experience the horrors of war until the Wraith overwhelmed them. I imagine that any fighting they had done prior to the Wraith had been defensive (I doubt the Ancients were conquerers) and they always won with little to no loss on their side. They never had any reason to develop offensive tactics because defensive ones had always served them well. The Wraith obvious took advantage of this weakness.

LincolnFord
August 13th, 2005, 01:44 PM
At the outbreak of the war and i'm sure the first 15-25 years of the war humans were outnumbering the Wraith yet it never dawned on the Atlanteans minds to enlist their help. After all it was the other worlds that were in the most direct danger of being killed.

Basically I am just gettin the picture that tactically speaking the ancients sucked big time. Maybe it was all the intellectual enlightenment focus that caused a similar type of situation like the Asguards had grown beyond the point of thinking of simple, low tech ways to battle their enemies.

Darkstar
August 13th, 2005, 04:56 PM
there is probably a good reason for their demise, firstly we don't knwo all of the facts and i think we may be supprised before yet concerning this matter, granted they wern't experienced nor where they advanced to the point that the wraith had somthing to worry about, the possibility could be that the wraith found somthin that gave them the edge somthing the ancients overlooked that led to their demise we will find out in due course i suspect. :rolleyes:

Tain
August 13th, 2005, 07:12 PM
They couldn't have won every battle, because they lost the single most important battle! Remember Weirs description in "Before I sleep"? The Ancients had their most powerful fleet annihilated by the Wraith. Thats hardly winning every battle. As Weir said "after that great battle", a battle which the Ancients lost, and lost hard.

LincolnFord
August 13th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Remember the ancients sent their most powerful ships to escort the negotiators not to fight an all out war with about half the Wraith fleet. Your point is well made that they lost the most critical ones. It seems like after that battle the Atlanteans were pretty much screwed and couldn't do anything of value to stop the wraith from culling the other worlds and probably even the planet Atlantis is on.

EnigmaNZ
August 15th, 2005, 05:04 PM
Not hard to work out. Some assumptions, all scifi coming out of the west these days is loaded with policality correct nonsence (Eg, if I was leader and the choice was see my people consumed by the wraith, or was able to keep the majority safe and evolve, by giving the wraith those that did criminal acts, then I would, PC and Weir be dammed. I'm talking survivial of my people), the politicians were in control of the fleet, the wraith can come across with dripping sincerety, etc
Chief negotiator "Commander, I want all ships to drop shields and power down weapons as a sign of good faith"
A surprised Fleet Commander "are you sure that is wise Sir, we'd be defenseless if this is a trap"
"Nonsence, I have been negotiating with my opposite on the wraith side, and he has indicated that they want peace as much as we do. See that my order is carried out Commander"
"Yes Sir" the commander shakes his head and goes off to pass the order to the fleet, worry lines clearly evident on his furrowed brow.
Shuttles are launched and negotiations get underway. They haven't been going long when alarms begin going off all over the fleet. "Sir, wraith are transporting across to all fleet vessels, the computers are locking us out, they seem to have been compromised, my guess is a wraith virus. Orders Sir"
Just at that moment a squad of wraith appear on the bridge, and after a brief struggle, are in control. Within a short time the ancient fleet is destroyed and the wraith slip into hyperspace on their way to a now largely defenseless Atlantis.

When politicians are in control, and their biggest concerned is their popularity, the military are screwed. Shades of BattleStar Galactica, original series.

So it wasn't a battle that they lost, but a trap they walked into durring peaceful negotiations.

MarshAngel
August 15th, 2005, 08:09 PM
Good points. It only takes one mistake to turn the tide. Even if the Ancients had the potential to kick Wraith butt in the beginning, all they had to do is make one major error, perhaps one borne of inexperience, accident, or brain fart and the Wraith could take advantage and ride that one error right through to the end.
I believe that this is exactly what happened. Compound that with too many missed opportunities and an inability to make tough decisions when it counted, and it's not hard to see how technologically superior can still fail in the hands of man, flawed as they are.

But on the note of the Ancients catching the Wraith as they drop out of hyperspace. To pull this off you need ships, several of them with a good amount of weapons. When you wasted your best on a "peace negotiation" that turned to crap, you just cant do the job.
But something tells me, that after that first negotiation, they took out a lot of wraith and suffered a lot of losses. They couldn't have lasted a hundred years without something, including help from the more advanced humans. It just turned out to not be enough. They just expended their resources on an enemy with seemingly unlimited numbers.

_Owen_
August 15th, 2005, 08:46 PM
I would have to say it was simply the fact that they were grossley outnumbered. Even if they sent a fleet of fifty warships, it would not compare to some two hundred ships, I believe the Wraith could manage without a hassle.

Owen Macri

Capn_Canada
August 17th, 2005, 09:48 PM
speakin of those 'most powerful ships' if the atlantians left Pjs behind, maybe they left some of those behind too. or at least some plans.

captain keys
August 17th, 2005, 10:03 PM
well we find one in the ep aroura

_Owen_
August 24th, 2005, 11:29 PM
Yes, I believe there would deffinetly be blueprints in the Atlantis database.

Owen Macri

nimitz
August 25th, 2005, 06:10 AM
The only problem is the database is infintely big ,its like trying to find one gram of pottasuim in a sun.If the asgard find it difficult ,so would we but a lot more difficult.

fani
August 27th, 2005, 08:19 PM
Another issue is this --
If the Atlanteans only lived on the floating Atlantis city, its not that big. No one said they lived anywhere else on the planet which was all water ( save for the small land where the Athosians are living now )
Maybe about half the size of Manhattan ? Thats about maybe 12square miles. (considering manhattan has similar tall building structure )
So, it could only have a population of about say a couple of million Atlanteans, although this is a number on very high side. Maybe like 1/2 million Atlanteans more like it.

That # is miniscule compared to population of wraiths I'd think ( or even of Earth which would be several thousand times that # )

Hence, Atlanteans lost easily ??

This is just one of the laundry list of issues with the show. But its just a show. If you can accept wormhole travel, then why not everything else thats babbled on it ( everyone speaking english, but calling stargate Chappa'I and pretending to not know some words. Ridiculous )

_Owen_
August 27th, 2005, 09:28 PM
The only problem is the database is infintely big ,its like trying to find one gram of pottasuim in a sun.If the asgard find it difficult ,so would we but a lot more difficult.

I would say it is a lot more difficult than that. I don't think we can currently imagine the vastness of the database.


Owen Macri