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Salas1
August 13th, 2005, 05:00 AM
This is my first post, ever, but anyway surely the weapon on Dakara would have a ZPM in it, for something to be able to affect a whole galaxy then it must have at least an equivalent power source to the ZPM.

Lord §okar
August 13th, 2005, 05:06 AM
Why? We know nothing about the properties of that wave (save that travelled so slowly it won't have affected the galaxy for millions of years) let alone how much energy it did or did not consume.

Jarnin
August 13th, 2005, 05:39 AM
I think the Dakara device was probably low power like the satellite in the SG:A ep. The Defiant One. It took a while before it actually released the energy bubble; perhaps it was building up energy in a capacitor-like doohickey until it got to the power levels it needed to fire.

Ryuu
August 13th, 2005, 03:31 PM
This is my first post, ever, but anyway surely the weapon on Dakara would have a ZPM in it, for something to be able to affect a whole galaxy then it must have at least an equivalent power source to the ZPM.

That device wasn't originally a weapon (AFAIK). Ancients used it to recreate life in the galaxy after the plague killed everyone. It created the wave only in local area but they rigged the gate to dial all gates in the galaxy and the wave went through that gate. The device itself could be powered by normal naquadah reactor if they brought one or by that ancient power source that is included in every piece of their tech. Dialing all gates in the galaxy would use enermous amount of energy but we know that energy can be provided by target gate so this shouldn't be any problem and we would need no ZPM.

EMSPARKS
August 14th, 2005, 09:49 AM
OK, I’ve been working the ZPM problem for a while. Like others I think the ZPMs are singularity based, after a fashion.

The natural forces that form the bases of the manufacturing of ZPMs;

This is what I think, and I need a little help with my physics here. :rolleyes:

At the mid point in a black holes life cycle it explodes, to start a new. To my way of thinking there are microscopic bits and pieces of the core of the black hole, along with a hell of a lot of proto matter including iron, or proto-iron that is being propelled outward by the explosion, to eventually form a new galaxy. There is a massive amount of other molecules being formed at this point but for now I am only concerned with iron, and other heavy metals, which I will collectively refer to as iron.

In the formation of a planet or sun, one of these microscopic fragments of the exploded black hole’s core is surrounded by a ring of iron, which orbits just out side of the event horizon. The propulsive vector provided by the explosion, and the attractive vector caused by the core fragment’s intents gravity combine to cause the near by iron to enter into a kind of orbit around the singularity fragment. As more and more iron is picked up in this fashion, due to the fact that two bodies cannot occupy the same space at the same time the resulting orbital collisions cause a kind if loosely organized sphere to form.

As more and more iron assumes this orbit, the attractive vectors caused by a combination of the gravitational fields of the iron, and core fragment cause the iron to attempt to collapse inward. Since the vector force is uniform, instead of joining with the singularity fragment the iron forms a sphere around this infinitesimal chunk of exploded black hole.

This iron sphere prevents any other matter from crossing the event horizon and reaching the singularity fragment thus preventing an increase in its mass. There has to be a fairly precise ratio between the mass of the singularity fragment and the available iron or this will not work. The total resultant mass of the iron and singularity fragment, if the ratio is within the prescribed limits, causes in effect what is a new event horizon to be formed just above the external surface of the iron sphere. It must be noted that the gravitational forces exerted by the singularity fragment on the iron sphere is such that the singularity fragment is held in a condition of near stasis at the iron sphere’s center of gravity, creating a kind of zero-point. Since if this happened in reality, this would not exactly be a sphere, but more spheroid or even egg shaped, I will call this a zero-point-spheroid.

Now this is where my physics gets even fuzzier if that is possible.

It is often said that nothing escapes a black hole which is true, there is however a condition having to do with the event horizon, where that appears not to be the case. It appears at first blush that a great deal of heat and radiation escapes a black hole.

If I remember correctly what happens, Often at the interface between normal space and the distorted time space of a black hole a kind if molecular tearing takes place. A particle comes in at a vector where the black hole tries to grab the particle, but only succeeds in grabbing a small piece of the particle causing it to be torn apart. As in Nuclear fission, this tearing causes an amount of heat and radiation to be liberated. Part of this heat and radiation is sucked into the black hole while the part that is in normal space radiates outward, away from the black hole. Thus giving the impression that heat and radiation can escape a black hole. I am not at all sure at what level this tearing takes place, whether it’s at the Molecular, Atomic or Subatomic level.

OK getting back to my zero-point-spheroid. This tearing also takes place, on the surface of the zero-point-spheroid, but the piece of particle captured by the gravity field cannot proceed to the singularity, it along with the captured heat and radiation stays at the surface of the iron spheroid; eventually forming a super-heated plasma.

Now we deal with the rest of the proto-matter that we have been ignoring to this point. This proto-matter has also been trying to join with the singularity fragment. However the gravitational density of the iron has caused it to push aside the lighter proto matter as they compete to get to the singularity fragment. The gravitational forces now cause the lighter proto-matter to compress and form a crust around the zero-point-spheroid. The free heat and radiation that would have escaped into space from the particle tearing is now trapped in the proto-matter crust. This trapped heat causes a layer of the proto-matter to become a liquid magma. Throw in the laws of thermodynamics and you have, depending on the mass of the zero-point-spheroid, a volcanically active planet or a sun.

This could very easily be called, a “Planetary engine.”

Now getting to the ZPM of Star Gate Atlantis fame.
Knowing how a “Planetary Engine” works there is no reason why a scientist any scientist wouldn’t want to harness the power for use by their species. Hell as a source of power it’s hard to beat.

Obviously a full-scale planetary engine would be very hard to construct as it relies on the propulsive forces of a big bang like event to do a lot of the work. So manipulating a planet size, “Planetary Engine,” would be as problematic as hell. So if you can’t build a full size one, build a miniature.

So for the sake of argument the Ancients decided to build miniaturized “Planetary Engines,” which because of the singularity fragment held in a condition of near stasis at its center they decided to call a Zero-Point-Module or ZPM for short.

So this is how ZPMs are built.
If there are singularity fragments, cause by a big-bang like event then they must come in an assortment of sizes, a range of which would be suited to subminiature, “Planetary Engines,” The problem then becomes finding one that fits in the range and encasing it in something that allows it to be used.

The next problem is where do you find such a fragment, given that they are shot outward from a single point and the root mean square rules apply, even in hundreds of thousands they must be very far apart after a billion of years travel or so. I mean your not going to get next to a big bang just after it happens.

I could go on forever but I’m going to shorten this up.

The singularity fragments of the right size are hard to find, almost to the point of relying on random chance. Because singularity fragments are not forgiving things when found they must be encapsulated where found, which would be very tricky. Consequently ZPMs are not easy to come by.

Finally the Ancients seem to be using a crystalline mass to convert the heat and radiation to electricity, which means like a battery the electrons have to be replenished. Again making a long story short a thunderstorm would do rather nicely. The heat generated by the sub miniaturized Planetary Engine causes the crystalline it’s encased in to generate a massive flow of electrons. With the use of superconductors, almost as many electrons are returned to the crystals, as they release so the short fall to make up this minimal. If the short fall is not made up then the ZPM crystals deteriorate which at a very slow rate of loss could take tens of thousands of years.

More later…. :cool:

Edited to correct spelling mistakes….

gallywag
August 14th, 2005, 03:39 PM
i dare you to say that again


anyway we know that zpm's are powered by zero point energy not a quantum singularaty such as a black hole it is still unclear how the zpm interacts with its self containing region of subspace time it has not been explaned yet

and i doubt the device on dakara was building up the power to fire i think it would have needed a powerful energy source such as a zpm or equivilent the only reason it took so long to fire was because they needed to get the frequence correct to be able to seporate the kireon pathways between the replicator blocks

Ryuu
August 14th, 2005, 04:43 PM
Well, EMSPARKS, you've based your idea on wrong assumption. Black holes don't explode in their mid-life. Explosion occurs only in the end of black hole's life when it radiates all of its energy in a very short time.

Three PhDs
August 15th, 2005, 03:28 PM
I wasn't aware black holes exploded at all. Also, this talk of protomatter, protoiron and other things is kinda... whiskey tango foxtrot too. The mention of distorted spacetime only getting part of a particle... massively against all principles of quantum physics. What you're actually referring to is the particle/virtual anti-particle effects postulated by Stephen Hawking in what was later to be called Hawking Radiation. Anyway, to summarise, this planetary engine is just so wrong. So many wrong assumptions resting on so many other wrong assumptions it's just so wrong wrong wrong. :s

_Owen_
August 15th, 2005, 08:12 PM
Actually, we don't know that Zero Point Modules use Zero Point Energy, it has never been stated, we simply assumed, because of the similarity in the names.

Owen Macri

EMSPARKS
August 16th, 2005, 03:44 PM
First of all as to black holes exploding, from what I understand that is an open point of debate in the real world of physics.

I said that I needed help with my physics, and I also said this was my thoughts, not facts.

It is the easiest thing in the world to say something is wrong, it is a whole other matter to make something out of nothing. So you can keep telling me how wrong I am or you can help me come up with a workable theory…. Your choice…


I am told on am other bulletin board that once black holes come into existence they are permanent, never going out of existence.

I don’t buy it, if this was the case then given the possible age of the entire universe not just our little piece, then the entire universe’s matter should have been sucked up into one black hole or another, well before our little epoch.

aAnubiSs
August 16th, 2005, 03:56 PM
A black hole doesn't explode, but the star that forms the black hole goes super nova before the black hole is formed. IIRC A Black hole lives for more than 10e100 years before evaporating in a plasma of particles and their anti-particles.

Three PhDs
August 16th, 2005, 03:59 PM
First of all as to black holes exploding, from what I understand that is an open point of debate in the real world of physics.

I said that I needed help with my physics, and I also said this was my thoughts, not facts.

It is the easiest thing in the world to say something is wrong, it is a whole other matter to make something out of nothing. So you can keep telling me how wrong I am or you can help me come up with a workable theory…. Your choice…


I am told on am other bulletin board that once black holes come into existence they are permanent, never going out of existence.

I don’t buy it, if this was the case then given the possible age of the entire universe not just our little piece, then the entire universe’s matter should have been sucked up into one black hole or another, well before our little epoch.
My apologies if I came across as condescending. I'm just sick of people reading a brief history of time and thinking they're the forum's gift. No offence to you but your science was very off, and you should read some more. That was all.

Gargen
August 16th, 2005, 04:40 PM
the inner workings of a zpm are a mystery because not much is said about them

oh and ive read like 20-30 books on the subject of astrophysics brief... is not the best or even that great its an overview of some very intense concepts thats a good intro but thats it

EMSPARKS
August 16th, 2005, 04:55 PM
OK tell me about black holes, in broad strokes, both sides of the coin. The side you believe in and those that you don’t.

captain keys
August 16th, 2005, 10:28 PM
i thoght that mckay said that they were powerd by some sort of vacum? :D

Three PhDs
August 17th, 2005, 12:51 AM
OK tell me about black holes, in broad strokes, both sides of the coin. The side you believe in and those that you don’t.What's to tell, they're quite simple gravitational constructs?

captain keys
August 17th, 2005, 03:14 AM
black holes hum??well there black and theres a hole in the middle u can figure out the rest

EMSPARKS
August 17th, 2005, 02:44 PM
Ok, you don’t what to play.

Two points;

1. Your right reading “a brief history of time” does not make one a physics expert.

2. There is however equal arrogance on the side of academia, in that unproven theories are taken as fact, just because they carry a sprinkling of mathematically provable assertions, and are repeated often enough.

==============

We are told that stars of a certain mass, when they reach the end of their life cycle collapse into a black hole. We don’t know if there is a black hole at the center of the star waiting to get out, to begin with, or the star does in fact become a black hole where none existed before.

It is said in some quarters that Neutrinos are subatomic black holes, one of many competing theories.

As to my thing about proto-matter, I am told that at a point in the so-called big-bang matter, as we know it has not formed. For something like 10^-99 seconds after the initiation event matter had yet to coalesced, hence rightly or wrongly I used the term proto-matter.

The point is we don’t know what the life cycle of a black hole is or is not.

vonbismarck
August 17th, 2005, 02:51 PM
I am sure some, if not all of what I am going to say is wrong but I am also sure that someone will call me on this. Here goes anyway: Just because there is a black hole doesn't mean that everything is going to be sucked into it. It's gravational (sp?) pull would be the same as it was when it was a star. If it wasn't going to pull in then, its not going to pull in now. It is only after you cross the event horizon will you no longer be able to escape. Also, it has been speculated that that at the center of galaxies (even ours) lie super massive black holes.

gallywag
August 17th, 2005, 03:32 PM
owen stop trying to make me sound like a dumb ass :D

im also reading that book i was about half way through but lost my place have to start it all over again now

EnigmaNZ
August 17th, 2005, 04:34 PM
Hmm, I wonder if the confusion lies in the one type of black hole that is suppose to blink out of existence. The micro type, quantum singulatity. Supposed to lose it's mass in the form of Hawkins radiation until it disappears in a bang. Hmm, put it in stasis field and draw down the energy as required, nope, damn singularity weighs enough so that you'd never carry it around as they do the ZPM. Only put this in in case the idea came to someone.

Question, is it called a ZPM because that is the name the Ancients attached to it, or did we name it that due to the way it worked.

Three PhDs
August 18th, 2005, 01:23 AM
I don't know why it was ever suggested there was a singularity in the ZPM. There's no reason to suspect it.

captain keys
August 18th, 2005, 01:56 AM
zpm's are powerd by somesort of vacum it says it on the show

Three PhDs
August 18th, 2005, 02:35 AM
A vacuum is not a singularity is not a vacuum.

captain keys
August 18th, 2005, 02:47 AM
what that doesnt make cents

Salas1
August 18th, 2005, 02:52 AM
Zero point energy is the fluctuation of energy around the zero point, no particle can actually have zero energy, the energy in the particle will fluctuate around the zero point, so no matter how much energy you draw from these particles they will always have remaining energy. This is why ZPMs are so powerful in the show because they draw on unlimited power. The reason they run out is because they lose electrons from the crystal shell which makes it unable to draw on any more energy as it requires the electrons to carry the energy into the circuit.

captain keys
August 18th, 2005, 02:57 AM
i new that i was trying to see what three phds was trying to say

Three PhDs
August 18th, 2005, 03:58 AM
Zero point energy is the fluctuation of energy around the zero point, no particle can actually have zero energy, the energy in the particle will fluctuate around the zero point, so no matter how much energy you draw from these particles they will always have remaining energy. This is why ZPMs are so powerful in the show because they draw on unlimited power.Technically it cannot be unlimited as energy is neither created nor destroyed. There will be a price to pay for drawing on zero point energy.

The reason they run out is because they lose electrons from the crystal shell which makes it unable to draw on any more energy as it requires the electrons to carry the energy into the circuit.How does it lose them? By what means? Crystal shell? By what means do the electrons draw energy into the shell? Or did you just make this up on guesswork? Man I hate how little real science there is on gateworld. :(

captain keys
August 18th, 2005, 04:07 AM
cause its FICTION thats y there called theorys or ideas

aAnubiSs
August 18th, 2005, 05:34 AM
cause its FICTION thats y there called theorys or ideas
Theories are based on observations and math.

Three PhDs
August 18th, 2005, 06:39 AM
cause its FICTION thats y there called theorys or ideasWhat's the point though? Why have a forum with a bunch of people with little or no scientific knowledge or training running around all making up their own ideas without any evidence of well thought out ideas about how something works?

EMSPARKS
August 18th, 2005, 11:50 AM
What's the point though? Why have a forum with a bunch of people with little or no scientific knowledge or training running around all making up their own ideas without any evidence of well thought out ideas about how something works?

For you there is no point, at least until you learn that people don’t all ways use language the same way you do. How else do we learn?


… How does it lose them? By what means? Crystal shell? By what means do the electrons draw energy into the shell? Or did you just make this up on guesswork? Man I hate how little real science there is on gateworld. :(

Ever hear of a “Piezoelectric crystal” where electron flow is created by applying pressure to the crystal. Some types of crystals react to heat, which is why there is such a thing as crystal ovens in older types of radio equipment, where frequencies had to be held stable. It then stands to reason that even if not so far discovered there could be a crystal material that could, when heated, cause enough of an electron differential within its structure to create a sizable current flow.

As to electron loss, maybe you don’t lose electrons but you lose the energy driving them to heat, through resistance. So even in a circuit comprised of super conductors there is still resistance however small. I take it you’ve heard the term electrical resistance, however it works.

If I’m not mistaken apply heat energy to any atom and it becomes more energetic, in some cases moving electrons to higher valence bands.

Ryuu
August 18th, 2005, 12:01 PM
I wasn't aware black holes exploded at all.

I'm sorry. I thought that radiation of a huge amount of energy in very short time can be called an explosion.

EMSPARKS
August 20th, 2005, 07:41 AM
For you there is no point, at least until you learn that people don’t all ways use language the same way you do. How else do we learn?

By consistent usage of something in a defined sense. Can you imagine trying to learn to speak as a child if everyone who spoke to you used the same words but gave them different meanings?

In an abstract sense you are correct. However in the real world, words in the English language are nebulous things, with many having alternate meanings and enunciations based on the context within which they are used. What I am asking you to do is stop judging someone on how they express a point, and help them get across what it is they are trying to say. There are many ways to correct someone without making them feel they are inferior. You do after all present your self as an expert.





Ever hear of a “Piezoelectric crystal” where electron flow is created by applying pressure to the crystal. Some types of crystals react to heat, which is why there is such a thing as crystal ovens in older types of radio equipment, where frequencies had to be held stable. It then stands to reason that even if not so far discovered there could be a crystal material that could, when heated, cause enough of an electron differential within its structure to create a sizable current flow.

Nope, I had absolutely no idea how microphones worked until now! However, if there were any real practical application in the matter then we'd have harvested the technology long ago. As a source of power generation, piezoelectrics are inefficient and useless.

If you read what I wrote carefully you will find that I am not offering the “Piezoelectric crystal” as a solution, I am merely using it to show that no law of physics is broken by postulating the possible existence of a very powerful electrical power producing crystalline substance. I believe that I used the phrase “not so far discovered.” So arguments of the Piezoelectric usability, and real practical applications are non sequiturs in this context.





As to electron loss, maybe you don’t lose electrons but you lose the energy driving them to heat, through resistance. So even in a circuit comprised of super conductors there is still resistance however small. I take it you’ve heard the term electrical resistance, however it works.

Well, given the power levels given off by the ZPM, even a minute amount of inefficiency bleeding to heat would probably give off enough heat to instantaneously ignite anything within its proximity.

This is an assumption that you cannot make, especially in the light of endothermic chemical reactions. The periodic table is yet to be officially closed, so we do not for a fact know all of the possible elements, and their chemical properties. The best we can do is look at things in the light of the laws of physics, with the full realization that the laws of physics as we understand them today may not be complete.

As to excess heat in the real world, in many of our machines there is heat-limiting devices especially in motors, compressors, and atomic reactors, there are devices to shut down the mechanism, or process, if the temperature goes too high. In many chemical processes steps are taken to limit the heat produced, there is no reason why an advanced race wouldn’t build such a thermal limiting protocol into one of their power generators / storage devices.

superdave
August 20th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Just a quick bit of informtion, the zpm technology is vacuum based so they may be utilizing a form of enregy production based on Casimir forces.At very short distances metallic or semiconductor plates can produce electricity from the vacuum. Some people call it zero point energy.
Just a thought....

timerider3
August 20th, 2005, 06:57 PM
Ok, you don’t what to play.

Two points;

1. Your right reading “a brief history of time” does not make one a physics expert.


I liked that one...

EMSPARKS
August 21st, 2005, 04:22 PM
Having read the following two links, I am getting ready to refine my thoughts.

NASA pages on Pulsars (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l1/pulsars.html)

NASA pages on Black Holes (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/features/news/10apr03.html)

Reading between the lines in the above, I come to the conclusion that there are many objects where their gravitational field (Mass) is considerably greater then their volume suggest. Objects that are not classifiable: as either a black hole or singularity. Objects whose gravitational field could never the less be put to use. This is going to take me a little while. :D

Three PhDs
August 21st, 2005, 04:48 PM
Reading between the lines in the above, I come to the conclusion that there are many objects where their gravitational field (Mass) is considerably greater then their volume suggest. Objects that are not classifiable: as either a black hole or singularity. Objects whose gravitational field could never the less be put to use. This is going to take me a little while. :DHow do you make energy from a black hole?

lethalfang
August 21st, 2005, 05:27 PM
Zero point energy is the fluctuation of energy around the zero point, no particle can actually have zero energy, the energy in the particle will fluctuate around the zero point, so no matter how much energy you draw from these particles they will always have remaining energy. This is why ZPMs are so powerful in the show because they draw on unlimited power.

This may or may not be true in terms of stargate.
However, this is bogus science. Microscopic fluctuations cannot be used to do work. Fluctuation has no direction.

lethalfang
August 21st, 2005, 05:33 PM
Just a quick bit of informtion, the zpm technology is vacuum based so they may be utilizing a form of enregy production based on Casimir forces.At very short distances metallic or semiconductor plates can produce electricity from the vacuum. Some people call it zero point energy.
Just a thought....

Casimir effect creates a bias when you place two sheets very close to each other: there is a higher concentration of virtual particles outside than there is inside, creating a force pushing the two sheets together. The two sheets will eventually meet, at which point the force cease to exist.
Casimir effect is neither unlimited nor perpetual.

Col. Newman
August 21st, 2005, 05:49 PM
Ok i just scanned this thread

I was thinking, in Trinity the device could produce a crap load more energy because it was drawing the energy from our universe, and not a small contained region of subspace time, so I have a solution to getting more power. We have the ancient’s research on ZPMs so we just build a bigger ZPM it wouldn't have nearly the power of the other device but it would produce way more power than just a single ZPM

EMSPARKS
August 22nd, 2005, 02:53 AM
How do you make energy from a black hole?
OH give me a break, here we go with the semantics thing again.

The answer is base on whether or not you consider the Accretion Disk as part of the black hole or not. Since the Accretion Disk is a force field construct of the gravity well created by in this case a black hole, it is part of the black hole that created it. A pulsar is also a gravity well, but not massive enough to be considered a black hole, and it too can create an Accretion Disk.

If you check the NASA pages listed above you will find, and you dam well knew this. That as the matter being sucked into the afore mentioned gravity wells interacts with the “Accretion Disk” or as some of us call it the “Event Horizon,” a great deal of heat and electromagnetic energy is liberated.

In my piece I talked about bleeding heat off the “Event Horizon,” not getting energy directly from the singularity. A method of obtaining energy that: however difficult does not violate the laws of physics, as you are trying to say it does.

AND THAT IS HOW YOU GET ENERGY FROM A BLACK HOLE.

Lord §okar
August 22nd, 2005, 03:17 AM
A pulsar is also a gravity well, but not massive enough to be considered a black hole, and it too can create an Accretion Disk.
A pulsar is a rotating neutron star. Why would anyone even consider considering it a black hole? Anything with alot of gravity can cause matter to accrete in its orbit.

“Accretion Disk” or as some of us call it the “Event Horizon"
You'd only refer to the accretion disc as the event horizon if you have no clue as to the definition of either.
Definition: Accretion disc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_disc)
Definition: Event horizon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_horizon)

AND THAT IS HOW YOU GET ENERGY FROM A BLACK HOLE.
Heavens, there's no need to shout.

In my piece I talked about bleeding heat off the “Event Horizon,”
That'd be quite a trick.

A method of obtaining energy that: however difficult does not violate the laws of physics, as you are trying to say it does.
By collecting the radiation emmited by the hyperexcited rotating matter?

Red_Leader
August 22nd, 2005, 03:48 AM
If any one wants to know about Zero Point Energy theres a website all about it:

http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

EMSPARKS
August 22nd, 2005, 04:43 AM
A pulsar is also a gravity well, but not massive enough to be considered a black hole, and it too can create an Accretion Disk.
A pulsar is a rotating neutron star. Why would anyone even consider considering it a black hole? Anything with alot of gravity can cause matter to accrete in its orbit.
Unless I understand wrong the main difference between a neutron star and a black hole is its mass. Given that the reason it is a neutron star is that the gravitational field of the mass has caused the electrons, and protons to combine to form this neutron star. Since the gravity and the mass, producing it, is the deciding factor and, black holes come in different sizes, it is not improper to consider that a pulsar will, after it ingests sufficient matter become a black hole. So yes “considered” is a word that can be applied.


“Accretion Disk” or as some of us call it the “Event Horizon"
You'd only refer to the accretion disc as the event horizon if you have no clue as to the definition of either.
Definition: Accretion disc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_disc)
Definition: Event horizon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_horizon)

You are correct until now I haven’t a clue to the difference between an Accretion Disk” and the “Event Horizon.” My bad for not looking up the two words, and your bad for the “haven’t a clue crack.” I did after all state in my piece, which started this leg of the thread, ”This is what I think, and I need a little help with my physics here.” Taking shots at someone that has asked for help is not good form.



AND THAT IS HOW YOU GET ENERGY FROM A BLACK HOLE.
Heavens, there's no need to shout.
Your not the one I was shouting at, and it is deserved. Need I explain why?


In my piece I talked about bleeding heat off the “Event Horizon,”
That'd be quite a trick.

Yes I know, but so was the atom bomb in its day. No body said this would be easy, but do you know of another source of such a massive amount of free energy?


A method of obtaining energy that: however difficult does not violate the laws of physics, as you are trying to say it does.
By collecting the radiation emmited by the hyperexcited rotating matter?
The source doesn’t matter, only the collection point and modality do. You are talking about the full-scale model, in my piece I’m talking about a sub-miniaturized form. If such a sub-miniaturized form could be built and it in turn formed an Accretion Disk, then maybe my idea might have some value.

Kaderos
August 22nd, 2005, 05:57 AM
I saw this thread and decided to add in my two cents.


ZPM is what Stargate Command calls the devices. Whatever the name was in Ancient has never been said.

In Atlantis season 2 "Trinity", McKay rambles on about a micro universe or something like that. He explains that is why zpms become depleted, they run out of internal substance to create power. He went on to explain the device on the planet extracted power from our own universe and did not have a direct connection (power connection). I guess that this could be taken it did not have a "crystal shell" to react with and that is what the chamber was for.


I am not sure about the science behind this. I am not sure if a zpm uses a micro-black hole or a star trek type inverted thingy (random energy field or if all else fails a plot device).

superdave
August 22nd, 2005, 12:55 PM
Casimir effect creates a bias when you place two sheets very close to each other: there is a higher concentration of virtual particles outside than there is inside, creating a force pushing the two sheets together. The two sheets will eventually meet, at which point the force cease to exist.
Casimir effect is neither unlimited nor perpetual.

Yes but there are nanomachine engineers who are building machines which can do work by varying the distace between the plates providing a sort of harmonic vibration. So far my reading leads me to believe if work is being done then power can be generated. No matter how small the output thats cool.

mmu_man
August 22nd, 2005, 02:20 PM
How about getting on some crash-course in quantum phy at Wikipedia ? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy) SGA is even mentionned there :D
I've read a bit through it, and I'd say...

To my understanding of the recent Trinity ep, ZPMs are extracting power from subspace, that is a different universe contained within them (think of the boat in the bottle).

The device McKay managed to destroyed was supposed to do the same, but using our own universe, which is supposedly bigger. But as they say it's trickier, because hey, we live in that universe... To continue on the analogy already used, it'd be like pumping out our ocean from the boat we sail on. After some time the coasts won't be the same and it would be hard to board somewhere for ex.

As to the actual energy, as noted it has to do with the "zero-point energy", that is manifesting itself within couples of opposing particles, supposed to be anihilating each other shortly, that are appearing randomly even in plain void. Quantum theory calls them "virtual" because of this.

Some people refered to black holes, which supposedly emit "Hawking radiations", that is thought to be the resulting of one of the pair of particle entering the event horizon of the black hole, leaving the other half existing for real ending up as a radiation.
That's about it as to black holes in this story.

Maybe the ZPM and the other device use something that separate the pairs of particles. Or maybe they use that Casimir effect in some way. The actual rechnique used is left to the script writer/Ancient who built it/scientist who will likely say it's impossible.

Lord §okar
August 22nd, 2005, 05:10 PM
You are correct until now I haven’t a clue to the difference between an Accretion Disk” and the “Event Horizon.” My bad for not looking up the two words, and your bad for the “haven’t a clue crack.” I did after all state in my piece, which started this leg of the thread, ”This is what I think, and I need a little help with my physics here.” Taking shots at someone that has asked for help is not good form.
It wasn't a crack, it was a statement of fact. If you use the terms "accretion disc" and "event horizon" interchangeably you can't know the definition of either.

Yes I know, but so was the atom bomb in its day. No body said this would be easy, but do you know of another source of such a massive amount of free energy?
No, I can't find any other way, I can't even find your way of collecting this free energy (and I've looked all through this thread).

The source doesn’t matter, only the collection point and modality do. You are talking about the full-scale model, in my piece I’m talking about a sub-miniaturized form. If such a sub-miniaturized form could be built and it in turn formed an Accretion Disk, then maybe my idea might have some value.
What on earth are you talking about?

Yes I know, but so was the atom bomb in its day. No body said this would be easy, but do you know of another source of such a massive amount of free energy?
Nobody ever thought fission was impossible, in much the opposite way to everyone thinking that removing things from behind an event horizon is impossible.

lethalfang
August 22nd, 2005, 06:44 PM
Yes but there are nanomachine engineers who are building machines which can do work by varying the distace between the plates providing a sort of harmonic vibration. So far my reading leads me to believe if work is being done then power can be generated. No matter how small the output thats cool.

Casimir force CAN be used to do work and generate power. The amount of potential work would be proportional to the area of the two sheets. It's just that one cannot use it to generate infinite energy.

_Owen_
August 22nd, 2005, 07:17 PM
Ok i just scanned this thread

I was thinking, in Trinity the device could produce a crap load more energy because it was drawing the energy from our universe, and not a small contained region of subspace time, so I have a solution to getting more power. We have the ancient’s research on ZPMs so we just build a bigger ZPM it wouldn't have nearly the power of the other device but it would produce way more power than just a single ZPM
Yes, that is a good idea. In fact, all we need to power Atlantis is a ZPM, the size of three ZPMs, and we can always make on that is even bigger so that we will have extra power just in case. However, if it was that easy for them to build ZPMs of any size, they would have done it already.

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
August 22nd, 2005, 07:27 PM
However, if it was that easy for them to build ZPMs of any size, they would have done it already.

Owen MacriGood point Owen lol

_Owen_
August 22nd, 2005, 11:28 PM
Well, there is always that whole "maybe they know how to do it, but aren't for some indiscernable reason within the Stargate universe, however it is actually because the producers think it would make a bad story if they could builld all of the power they ever needed" possibilty right there next to it.

lol.

Owen Macri

EMSPARKS
August 23rd, 2005, 05:59 AM
You are correct until now I haven’t a clue to the difference between an Accretion Disk” and the “Event Horizon.” My bad for not looking up the two words, and your bad for the “haven’t a clue crack.” I did after all state in my piece, which started this leg of the thread, ”This is what I think, and I need a little help with my physics here.” Taking shots at someone that has asked for help is not good form.
It wasn't a crack, it was a statement of fact. If you use the terms "accretion disc" and "event horizon" interchangeably you can't know the definition of either. ?
By the way “being clueless,” and “Not having a clue,” are most often used, in common usage, as derogatory remarks as to the lack of ones intelligence, or social acumen. Very often in the English language you will find some dictionary definition at odds with common usage.


[ Yes I know, but so was the atom bomb in its day. No body said this would be easy, but do you know of another source of such a massive amount of free energy?
No, I can't find any other way, I can't even find your way of collecting this free energy (and I've looked all through this thread).

I guess you didn’t look here:
Post Number 5 in this thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=4428830&postcount=5) And I quote:

Now we deal with the rest of the proto-matter that we have been ignoring to this point. This proto-matter has also been trying to join with the singularity fragment. However the gravitational density of the iron has caused it to push aside the lighter proto matter as they compete to get to the singularity fragment. The gravitational forces now cause the lighter proto-matter to compress and form a crust around the zero-point-spheroid. The free heat and radiation that would have escaped into space from the particle tearing is now trapped in the proto-matter crust. This trapped heat causes a layer of the proto-matter to become a liquid magma. Throw in the laws of thermodynamics and you have, depending on the mass of the zero-point-spheroid, a volcanically active planet or a sun.




The source doesn’t matter, only the collection point and modality do. You are talking about the full-scale model, in my piece I’m talking about a sub-miniaturized form. If such a sub-miniaturized form could be built and it in turn formed an Accretion Disk, then maybe my idea might have some value.
What on earth are you talking about?
Read posting #5 as it appears you haven’t all ready.


Yes I know, but so was the atom bomb in its day. No body said this would be easy, but do you know of another source of such a massive amount of free energy?
Nobody ever thought fission was impossible, in much the opposite way to everyone thinking that removing things from behind an event horizon is impossible.

I really don’t know where you get the Idea that I am talking about crossing the “event horizon” never said it never suggested it.

It is said: by people a lot smarter and educated then I am that the speeds within an Accretion Disk are such that heat and X-rays are produced, and expelled. It then should be possible to set up a large felid antenna array, that can collect X-Rays at a distance from the star in question.

In the model I suggested in the piece I wrote I was talking about using the heat generated on the normal space side of the “event horizon,” not crossing the “event horizon, as you claim.”

_Owen_
August 23rd, 2005, 07:57 AM
Nice discussion guys. Very interesting.

Owen Macri

Ollock
August 27th, 2005, 04:07 PM
I was thinking, in Trinity the device could produce a crap load more energy because it was drawing the energy from our universe, and not a small contained region of subspace time, so I have a solution to getting more power. We have the ancient’s research on ZPMs so we just build a bigger ZPM it wouldn't have nearly the power of the other device but it would produce way more power than just a single ZPM

Doubtful. Given that the power scource employed by the ZPM is esentially a 'pocket universe'. That said, the size of that universe would not necessarily be proportional to the size of the ZPM. In fact, ZPM would likely only contain some kind of 'gateway' to that universe, maybe as a function of whatever it uses to create the universe in the first place.

Mio
August 27th, 2005, 04:17 PM
Doubtful. Given that the power scource employed by the ZPM is esentially a 'pocket universe'. That said, the size of that universe would not necessarily be proportional to the size of the ZPM. In fact, ZPM would likely only contain some kind of 'gateway' to that universe, maybe as a function of whatever it uses to create the universe in the first place.

If that is true, then the size of the universe that the ZPM contains may very well be irrelevent. If the 'gateway' of sorts becomes clogged.....

Ollock
August 27th, 2005, 04:27 PM
If that is true, then the size of the universe that the ZPM contains may very well be irrelevent. If the 'gateway' of sorts becomes clogged.....

Interesting idea, but I figure clogging the 'gateway' would be like clogging a Stargate. In the end it is just a warped piece of space-time with virtually unlimited capacity to pass particles through it.

_Owen_
August 27th, 2005, 06:54 PM
No, the Zero Point Module draws its' power from a self-contained region of subspace time. The term "self contained" implies that the region of subspace is within the Zero Point Module and not a "gateway" to that universe.

Further more, this quote disproves your idea of a gateway:


McKAY: A Zero Point Module is an artificially created region of subspace time. It's kind of like a miniature universe in a bottle.

"...a miniature universe in a bottle," is what he said, which signifies that this artificialy created self-contained region of subspacetime, is created and will remain within any given Zero Point Module, until that module is "reset."

Owen Macri

Harekin
March 7th, 2006, 05:48 PM
To be honest I didnt think anyone really knew anything about blackholes...isnt it all based on educated assumption...for example.Tell me somewhere in the universe that there is definately a black hole.

Mio
March 7th, 2006, 06:11 PM
To be honest I didnt think anyone really knew anything about blackholes...isnt it all based on educated assumption...for example.Tell me somewhere in the universe that there is definately a black hole.

Well, you can't really directly observe one...but Scientists are pretty sure that at the center of our galaxy lies Sagittarius A. The radio waves emitted from that location are in perfect coorelation with what you'd typically expect to find near a black hole.

Harekin
March 10th, 2006, 08:13 AM
Ahh yeah but its still only a theory...infact you cant observe one because the theory is that not even light can escape.

enemy of your enemy
March 10th, 2006, 12:33 PM
hmmm, odd i always though it was quite clear what powers zpm's... but i'll explain what i think anyway

well the big bang theory stated that the entire univese was contained in supercompressed matter about the size of an apple and (im not sure at all but i think i heard this) it was kept that way through a constant battle between matter and anti matter and when matter and antimatter come in contact the result is energy of the purest form and when something is that compressed then it results in quite a bit of fuel more feul than the matter our universe consists of because the universe was created when there was more matter than antimatter meaning that there must have been a huge amount of matter within that supercompressed orb but anyway what im saying is the zpm is releasing energy in its purest form (not electricity, if you think about it this makes sence considering the fact that the gates can take in any kind of energy)

although my theory has quite a bit of holes in it such as:

where does the energy go when it is not being used and many others

well, my theory is not so great once i start to think about it... but i feel im on the right track, does anyone else think im on the right track with the supercondensed matter thing?


also everyone keeps saying that the zpm is a battery, your only saying that because it is portable its not a battery! thats like saying a nuclear reactor on a submarine is a battery

Auralis
March 10th, 2006, 12:47 PM
A ZPM dras its power from the quantum fluctuations in a artificial created subspace domain and the zpm is the anchor, controler and sustainer of that subspace domain.
It has to do with black holes as much as a squirrel with moonrockets.