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LincolnFord
August 10th, 2005, 06:57 PM
I am a newbie poster on this board although I have been lurking and reading for a couple of months now. The question I have and I apologize in advance if this has been discussed on end is couldn't the ancients simply built another weapon like the one on Dakara and wiped out all the wraith? It just seems like a big plot hole to me but maybe we're not suppose to borrow tech from one show and display its value towards enemies on the other show.

_Owen_
August 10th, 2005, 07:18 PM
Well, first and foremost, welcome to the forum! I hope you enjoy it here!

Now, down to business. Actually, I don't believe this topic has been discussed at all... Good idea!

Actually the Ancients wouldn't even need to build another weapon. They could just use the one on Dakara, they make an eight chevron lock to all of the gates in Pegasus, I have a feeling this would take quite a bit of energy, but nothing a few Zero Point Modules can't handle. Good thinking!

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
August 10th, 2005, 10:09 PM
Well, first and foremost, welcome to the forum! I hope you enjoy it here!

Now, down to business. Actually, I don't believe this topic has been discussed at all... Good idea!

Actually the Ancients wouldn't even need to build another weapon. They could just use the one on Dakara, they make an eight chevron lock to all of the gates in Pegasus, I have a feeling this would take quite a bit of energy, but nothing a few Zero Point Modules can't handle. Good thinking!

Owen Macri
Yeah, but taht would kill everything. Making the Ancients the biggest mass murderer's ever.
I think that's why they didn't do it.

Tain
August 10th, 2005, 10:30 PM
My theory has always been that the Ancient's technological might declined between the 5 million year era and the 10,000 year era. The race as it appeared 10,000 years ago seems to have been a pale shadow of what it once was several million years ago. They once had the power to create life, and destroy it on a galactic scale in an instant. Yet, they were in the end defeated by a race with much inferior technology, in a much smaller galaxy. The only way i can pesonally reconcile this is that the Ancient's, by the time of the war with the Wraith, had declined to a point that they were no longer able to make or use the "epic" technology of their forebearers.

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 04:45 AM
I think the Dakara Device could be proggramed to attack only the Wraith.

Owen Macri

~Thor~
August 11th, 2005, 06:00 AM
Only problem is that the weapon was destroyed

nimitz
August 11th, 2005, 07:15 AM
Couldnt the ancients just build another 1 in the pegaus galaxy.

Qasim
August 11th, 2005, 07:29 AM
No because they dont interfere with 'lowers'

gallywag
August 11th, 2005, 07:47 AM
the wraith are basically humans with that bug dna spliced into them so to destroy the wraith with that weapon you would be killing every human or creature with the same genetic make up as humans

Flayum
August 11th, 2005, 08:53 AM
No because they dont interfere with 'lowers'

This is before the Ancients ascended.


the wraith are basically humans with that bug dna spliced into them so to destroy the wraith with that weapon you would be killing every human or creature with the same genetic make up as humans

Target the Bug DNA and only the bugs/Wraith will be harmed.

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 12:54 PM
Yes, my idea was that 10 000 years ago when they were fighting the Wraith they could have used it.

And yes, I was just going to say, target the bug DNA.

Owen Macri

spg_1983
August 11th, 2005, 01:03 PM
I think the Dakara Device could be proggramed to attack only the Wraith.

Owen Macrithis thread seemed interesting enough to bring me out of retirement.

down to business.

i dont really think it would be possible to program the dakara device to kill a specific race, especially when that race shares genes with humans and ancients. the device is programmed to break the molecular bonds of everything it hits so that everything is broken down into its base elements, correct? now they were able to program the device to emit the specific "frequency" if you will, that broke the bonds between the replicator blocks. now that was possible because the nature of the replicators design and the biological systems of everything else were so radically different. however the similarities between the wraith and most other life would be much greater. carbon based life forms cellular make up is basically the same, just different configurations basically. so an energy wave that would break down the wraith would most likely affect most other biological creatures, and definately would effect humans and ancients since the wraith are human/bug hybrids, and Ancients are just more advanced humans. its highly unlikely that the device could be programmed to just effect the wraith.

Qasim
August 11th, 2005, 01:05 PM
What if the device was set to only attack certain planets

spg_1983
August 11th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Target the Bug DNA and only the bugs/Wraith will be harmed.the device doesnt work by targeting DNA, it works by releasing an energy wave that breaks the bonds between molecules of living things, it was able to be adapted to work on the replicators because the blocks that make up their strutures use a specific energy bond to adhere together and the wave neutralized that energy bond causing them to become unconnected and fall apart.

spg_1983
August 11th, 2005, 01:09 PM
What if the device was set to only attack certain planetsthere would still be the problem of whoever turned the device on being killed, plus it would slaughter any human herds on the planets. also now that the wraith are awake, they are on their hive ships which are moving from planet to planet instead of being on the surface.

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 01:14 PM
You have some very good points there, and welcome back!

Yes, the reason the device was able to attack only the replicators was because it was altered so that it would interupt the Kiron pathways, which held the replicators cells together. The equivilent of our Collagen. Seeing as human and other life forms don't posses Kiron pathways, as they are artificially created, it was safe to use the device. However, if the device could be altered to attack soley DNA, then the wraith could be finished, however, this would also effect all of the people, like Teyla, that have small amounts of Wraith DNA, in their genetic make-up.

Owen Macri

Qasim
August 11th, 2005, 01:14 PM
Maybe it can be turned on remotely

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 01:16 PM
Then we would still basically, have to eveacuate everyone from the Pegasus Galaxy, which might be just a tad difficult. lol.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
August 11th, 2005, 01:37 PM
You have some very good points there, and welcome back!

Yes, the reason the device was able to attack only the replicators was because it was altered so that it would interupt the Kiron pathways, which held the replicators cells together. The equivilent of our Collagen. Seeing as human and other life forms don't posses Kiron pathways, as they are artificially created, it was safe to use the device. However, if the device could be altered to attack soley DNA, then the wraith could be finished, however, this would also effect all of the people, like Teyla, that have small amounts of Wraith DNA, in their genetic make-up.

Owen Macri
The trouble is, Owen, that it doesn't attack DNA at all. You're talking about creating an offshoot device, which we don't have the tech to do.
I'll say it again, you couldn't attack the wraith with it, since it disrupts molecular bonds. YOu cannot target that to DNA.

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Yes, I know that, unfortunatley. It would be far more handy if we could create an offshoot device. However it would be no problem for the Ancients.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
August 11th, 2005, 02:03 PM
Yes, I know that, unfortunatley. It would be far more handy if we could create an offshoot device. However it would be no problem for the Ancients.

Owen Macri
Except for the fact they won't interfere, maybe not.
IF they could make such a device tho, don't you think they would have durning their 100 year war?

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 02:07 PM
Yes, that is what is confusing why they simply did not do that.

Owen Macri

Tain
August 11th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Yes, that is what is confusing why they simply did not do that.

Owen Macri



Most likely they didn't do it because they couldn't, for some reason or another. Hence my personal theory.

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 03:45 PM
Or they were just procrastinators?

Ancient 1: Sir, I have found a way to defeat the Wraith, we use the concept of the Dakara Device to create an offshoot that will attack only certain DNA, and we can target the Wraith!

Ancient 2: Ok, ok, in a minute...

Ancient 1: Ya, we have lots of time.

lol.

Owen Macri

Tain
August 11th, 2005, 03:49 PM
Or they were just procrastinators?

Ancient 1: Sir, I have found a way to defeat the Wraith, we use the concept of the Dakara Device to create an offshoot that will attack only certain DNA, and we can target the Wraith!

Ancient 2: Ok, ok, in a minute...

Ancient 1: Ya, we have lots of time.

lol.

Owen Macri


Well thats not out of the realm of possibility, we know the ancients weren't big on logic. lol.

However, remember the plague. I think this is what contributed to my theorized technological decline of their civilization.

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Actually, I would have to say that the Ancients were big on logic. It is demonstrated all of the time. For one there is their opposition to the creation of a time travel medium...

Owen Macri

spg_1983
August 11th, 2005, 04:00 PM
You have some very good points there, and welcome back!

Yes, the reason the device was able to attack only the replicators was because it was altered so that it would interupt the Kiron pathways, which held the replicators cells together. The equivilent of our Collagen. Seeing as human and other life forms don't posses Kiron pathways, as they are artificially created, it was safe to use the device. However, if the device could be altered to attack soley DNA, then the wraith could be finished, however, this would also effect all of the people, like Teyla, that have small amounts of Wraith DNA, in their genetic make-up.

Owen Macriwell how would you alter the device to attack specific DNA? its not exactly a directed weapon, it just releases the burst of energy outward, its not aimed or targeted and after its fired it is just an energy wave, it doesnt have sensors or targeting or anything so it cant aim for just the wraith. you would have to find a specific "frequency" of energy that effected only wraith, and given that they share half their genetic profile with humans, it would be very difficult to find a specific energy wave that didnt affect us as well

Tain
August 11th, 2005, 04:07 PM
Actually, I would have to say that the Ancients were big on logic. It is demonstrated all of the time. For one there is their opposition to the creation of a time travel medium...

Owen Macri

We don't know the Ancient's collective view on time travel. Only a small group of them, whos opinions covered the entire spectrum from support to outright hostility. Janus couldn't have come up with all the time tech for his ship by himself. Also, don't forget the ancients built several devices that's entire purpose was to disturb the flow of time. Remember the device from the groundhog day episdode, and the device in the upcomming episode Epiphany.

PrimalAscended
August 11th, 2005, 05:56 PM
Thought I'd add my £0.02 worth.......

Its disclosed in "Threads" that the device on Dakara was originally used by the Ancients to recreate life after the plague......probably by seeding life in the galaxy. Now, we know they did the exact same thing in Pegasus, and may have created the Wraith by accident in doing so. Therefore, its reasonable to assume that there's a similar device to the one on Dakara somewhere in Pegasus.

So, taking things a step further, if the device can seed life then its possible it CAN affect DNA, the "blueprint" for life (I really don't like that term but it suits a purpose here!! ;) ) and so with the proper adjustments possibly could be used to target the Wraith "bug" DNA and wipe 'em out. What do you think?

More importantly though, would Wraith genocide be justifiable by the SGA team? I guess that's a whole other thread though..........

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 06:07 PM
Yes, I believe PrimalAscended could be correct. If the device can work with DNA in any way, perhaps it can destroy it, all we would need to do is find the frequency that attacked the DNA of thos bug things, which would be incredibly difficult. But now, perhaps not immpossible.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
August 11th, 2005, 06:24 PM
Yes, I believe PrimalAscended could be correct. If the device can work with DNA in any way, perhaps it can destroy it, all we would need to do is find the frequency that attacked the DNA of thos bug things, which would be incredibly difficult. But now, perhaps not immpossible.

Owen Macri

I thought the Dakara device was used to obliterate all life so the ancients could re-seed it??
I didn't think the device actually created life, just gave the ancients a blank slate to work with.

_Owen_
August 11th, 2005, 06:30 PM
No in "Threads" Anubis told Daniel that the Dakara Device was used to re-seed life in the Milky Way, after "that whole plauge thing."

Owen Macri

JanusAncient
August 11th, 2005, 08:07 PM
this thread seemed interesting enough to bring me out of retirement.

down to business.

i dont really think it would be possible to program the dakara device to kill a specific race, especially when that race shares genes with humans and ancients. the device is programmed to break the molecular bonds of everything it hits so that everything is broken down into its base elements, correct? now they were able to program the device to emit the specific "frequency" if you will, that broke the bonds between the replicator blocks. now that was possible because the nature of the replicators design and the biological systems of everything else were so radically different. however the similarities between the wraith and most other life would be much greater. carbon based life forms cellular make up is basically the same, just different configurations basically. so an energy wave that would break down the wraith would most likely affect most other biological creatures, and definately would effect humans and ancients since the wraith are human/bug hybrids, and Ancients are just more advanced humans. its highly unlikely that the device could be programmed to just effect the wraith.

I have to agree, the device works by reducing matter to its most basic elements, to program it to target only Wraith would defeat the purpose, of how it was initially used, to reduce all objects on the surface of a planet to their most basic, another thing, I don't think that the Ancients who battled the Wraith, were a mere shadow of the Ancients that left the Milky Way Galaxy for Pegasus, still it is a major plothole, that they were unable to defeat the Wraith, with millions of years of further advancement for their race, no additional weapons, just the drone weapons they had millions of years prior, the writers better create a fantastic reason for this, because with such knowledge as the Ancients supposedly possessed, no matter the numbers of the Wraith, they should have been able to eliminate any Hive Ship, that dared to encroach on Lantia.



The Ancients probably wanted to see what the Wriath would evolve into, a race willing to teach, and help other, less developed races, wouldn't want to destroy a civilization before they had reached, what they believed to be their full potential, so the Ancients didn't really expect the Wraith to go all life-sucking, terror on the human race, if they had they would have prevented the advancement of the Wraith early on, to protect the humans of Pegasus.:p :) ;) :D

Tain
August 11th, 2005, 09:05 PM
I have to agree, the device works by reducing matter to its most basic elements, to program it to target only Wraith would defeat the purpose, of how it was initially used, to reduce all objects on the surface of a planet to their most basic, another thing, I don't think that the Ancients who battled the Wraith, were a mere shadow of the Ancients that left the Milky Way Galaxy for Pegasus, still it is a major plothole, that they were unable to defeat the Wraith, with millions of years of further advancement for their race, no additional weapons, just the drone weapons they had millions of years prior, the writers better create a fantastic reason for this, because with such knowledge as the Ancients supposedly possessed, no matter the numbers of the Wraith, they should have been able to eliminate any Hive Ship, that dared to encroach on Lantia.



The Ancients probably wanted to see what the Wriath would evolve into, a race willing to teach, and help other, less developed races, wouldn't want to destroy a civilization before they had reached, what they believed to be their full potential, so the Ancients didn't really expect the Wraith to go all life-sucking, terror on the human race, if they had they would have prevented the advancement of the Wraith early on, to protect the humans of Pegasus.:p :) ;) :D



While what you say could easily be true, i do believe there is evidence to support the decline of the ancients post plague. Look at all the ruined ancient outposts, and most importantly, city, that have been discovered. Also, i know its a trivial thing, but just look how differently the Ancients appear between the two eras. Take the ancients from the flashback sequence in rising part 1, and compare them to the remaining ancients as they appear in Before I Sleep. Also, look how different the technology from the Ancient depository with the head sucking machine is compared to the more down to earth tech style which is found all throughout Atlantis.

However, i think the biggest piece of supporting evidence is the absence of any other machines like that on Dakara, especially in Pegasus. We know they had ample time to build one, heck they had the perfect reason too: pegasus was devoid of life. Why didn't they? I think the best answer to that is that they couldn't. Remember, Atlantis didn't leave earth to "seek out new life and new civilizations", those days were over. The ancients were ravaged by plague and their cities were being abandoned. Atlantis was a ship of refugees, an Ark, heading to what they hoped would be a promised land, free of plague.

spg_1983
August 12th, 2005, 12:23 PM
Remember, Atlantis didn't leave earth to "seek out new life and new civilizations", those days were over. The ancients were ravaged by plague and their cities were being abandoned. Atlantis was a ship of refugees, an Ark, heading to what they hoped would be a promised land, free of plague.um no actually. a lot of people have assumed that the Ancients went to pegasus to escape the plague but that has never been said in the show. the only reason for the Ancients to take Atlantis to pegasus was the one given by the hologram lady in "Rising". she said that they discovered a galaxy devoid of life and they went for the purpose of exploration and to seed life in pegasus. there was no mention of the plague, their civilization declining or anything. as far as has been shown, the plague took place some time after Atlantis left for pegasus. all we know about that period of time is that atlantis left for pegasus ten million years ago, ten thousand years ago the goa'uld became the dominant race in this galaxy with the discovery of human hosts. so some time between ten million and ten thousand years ago the plague happened and wiped out most of the ancients, they activated the device on Dakara to recreate the life in this galaxy, and thne they ascended. they may seem like a lot of big events, but we are talking about a period of time of 9,990,000 years.

_Owen_
August 12th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Yes, but you would think that the second the Wraith started sucking the life out of other humans, and not teaching them anything except how to die, they would intervene.

Owen Macri

spg_1983
August 12th, 2005, 12:55 PM
Yes, but you would think that the second the Wraith started sucking the life out of other humans, and not teaching them anything except how to die, they would intervene.

Owen Macriwell the Ancients seemed to be pretty uppity and only worried about themselves, so as long as the wraith were only feeding on humans they were probably more interested in studying them still. it wasnt till the wraith started feeding on the Ancients that they became a threat but by then it was too late, the wraith were too numerous.

PrimalAscended
August 12th, 2005, 01:06 PM
well the Ancients seemed to be pretty uppity and only worried about themselves, so as long as the wraith were only feeding on humans they were probably more interested in studying them still. it wasnt till the wraith started feeding on the Ancients that they became a threat but by then it was too late, the wraith were too numerous.

Seeing as the Ancients are effectively humans (until they ascend), just more advanced, you think they'd give a damn when it comes to what's happening to their "little brothers and sisters".......

_Owen_
August 12th, 2005, 01:07 PM
I don't think so, they took the time and energy to re seed life in the Milky Way and seed it in Pegasus, and thier reason for all we know was "just because" so that seems pretty selfless.

Owen Macri

PrimalAscended
August 12th, 2005, 02:07 PM
I don't think so, they took the time and energy to re seed life in the Milky Way and seed it in Pegasus, and thier reason for all we know was "just because" so that seems pretty selfless.

Owen Macri

I'm not sure if I'd call it selfless myself.........for all we know seeding life in Pegasus was just a big biology experiment that they then carried back into the Milky Way......seeing as we now know from S9 "Avalon" that the Ancients aren't from the Milky Way in the first place

spg_1983
August 12th, 2005, 02:10 PM
I don't think so, they took the time and energy to re seed life in the Milky Way and seed it in Pegasus, and thier reason for all we know was "just because" so that seems pretty selfless.

Owen Macriwell the fact that we dont know their reasons is a major hole, but we cant assume it was for benevolent reasons. and the fact that they absolutely refuse to help us now that they are Ascended seriously undermines their credibility in my eyes. yes i know they have their rules because even though they are powerful they recognize that they are not omnipotent gods, and there is the question of the "Others" that maybe would stop them, but if they truly did care about humans, they could still help us. the whole anubis debacle is proof of that. one of their own, oma, screwed up and they could have done more to resolve the situation, but they didnt in order to teach oma a lesson, in the proccess un counted billions of humans and jaffa were killed, plus who knows what other races. now the very fact that they were willing to sacrifice thi entire galaxy in order to teach one of their own a lesson underscores their uncaring of us. we are little more than amusments to watch and see what happens. we know that ascension doesnt change your personality because daniel was the same as he was before he ascended, so the Ancients ascended with that type of attitude. yes over time they may have changed and become more aloof, but the seeds had to be there before they ascended. i really think that it is questionable how benevolent the Ancients were.

_Owen_
August 12th, 2005, 02:30 PM
Yes, you definetly have good points there. I still don't think the Ancients would have been that reckless, allowing a race that could possibly destroy galaxies, evolve so they could watch them.

Owen Macri

spg_1983
August 12th, 2005, 02:33 PM
Yes, you definetly have good points there. I still don't think the Ancients would have been that reckless, allowing a race that could possibly destroy galaxies, evolve so they could watch them.

Owen Macriits possible they thought they could control them, or maybe they just simply underestimated the wraiths capabilities. i liken it to people that study diseases. it is neccasary to breed and grow the viruses or whatever, but if they lost containment they could wipe out the planet.

_Owen_
August 12th, 2005, 02:37 PM
Yes, I think underestemation is a very likley possibility, however, with the Ancients' power throughout the galaxy they may have thought they could control them, so either is possible.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
August 12th, 2005, 03:22 PM
its possible they thought they could control them, or maybe they just simply underestimated the wraiths capabilities. i liken it to people that study diseases. it is neccasary to breed and grow the viruses or whatever, but if they lost containment they could wipe out the planet.

It's also possible they just didn't knwo they were there.
I mean, we're talking baout thousands, possibly millions of planets in Pegasus.
It's not inconceievable that the Ancients just forgot about the wraith planet.
It would then tie in with hologram lady. The Wraith evolved, in doing so, they eveolved some tech, then followed their current pattern of hibernating and cultivating humans for food. One day, the Ancients appear, accidnetly on purpose killed a keeper and bam, the wraith and ancients are at war.

spg_1983
August 12th, 2005, 04:52 PM
It's also possible they just didn't knwo they were there.
I mean, we're talking baout thousands, possibly millions of planets in Pegasus.
It's not inconceievable that the Ancients just forgot about the wraith planet.
It would then tie in with hologram lady. The Wraith evolved, in doing so, they eveolved some tech, then followed their current pattern of hibernating and cultivating humans for food. One day, the Ancients appear, accidnetly on purpose killed a keeper and bam, the wraith and ancients are at war.i dont know about that. i find it really hard to believe the ancients wouldnt have know about them, or detected them before the wraith became a major presence. they had the ability to scan an entire galaxy and determine it had no life from this galaxy. they have the ability to detect specific genes in a persons DNA remotely with out taking a sample. they would definatley have had the ability to detect a new species spreading from planet to planet.

_Owen_
August 12th, 2005, 06:00 PM
I also, have a little bit of trouble believing that the Ancients didn't notice them right up until the war, but anything is possible. However, I could probably beleive that the Wraith evolved and got strong then started a war with the Ancients, and the Ancients being who they are tried to reason with them, then they just got really big and smoked all the Ancients.

Owen Macri

captain keys
August 12th, 2005, 09:19 PM
but dna is molecular and theres a bond between the human and bug dna :D

_Owen_
August 12th, 2005, 10:04 PM
I'm sorry, I think I am missing something.

Owen Macri

spg_1983
August 13th, 2005, 12:57 PM
but dna is molecular and theres a bond between the human and bug dna :Dno thats not how it works. the wraith share a lineage with the bugs and humans, their genetic make up is a combination of both, but its not like their DNA strands are just divided down the middle with bug on one side and human on the other. the human and bug DNA's combined to create a new form, wraith. while you would probably be able to look at wraith DNA and identify spcific characteristics as bug or human based, the DNA strand itself would be unique, not half and half.

Anubis345
August 13th, 2005, 01:10 PM
wow i think that you are right that is an intresting story.

Schrodinger82
August 13th, 2005, 06:24 PM
No in "Threads" Anubis told Daniel that the Dakara Device was used to re-seed life in the Milky Way, after "that whole plauge thing."

Owen Macri

Ahem:

Wanna know the irony of it all? That device was originally used by the Ancients to create life in the Milky Way ... well, recreate it after the whole plague thing.

Hence, Anubis never says that the device is use to seed life. In fact, Anubis finds the need to clarify immeadiately after making a statement that might imply it. Rather, the device was instrumental in the RECREATION of life. And yes, being able to create a blank slate would be a big step towards recreation.

Really, how would a device capable of seeding human life even work? Because it's not like you could just send a scrap of human DNA through the stargate, and poof! you magically have a self-sufficient human being. Who all speak English.

That doesn't make much sense.

captain keys
August 13th, 2005, 06:42 PM
ok that makes cents

_Owen_
August 15th, 2005, 09:05 PM
True, he doesn't specifically say that the device seeds life but to deal with the creation or recreation of life at all, the device must somehow manipulate DNA.

Owen Macri

Quartz
August 15th, 2005, 09:35 PM
I'm late to this thread, so I apologize in advance.

This idea of using the Dakara device, or at least its basic technology, to attack the Wraith is interesting.

We saw the Asgard build a hand-held anti-replicator weapon based on the Ancient knowledge contained in O'Neill's brain. This weapon tageted the kiron pathways of the reps and had a confined/targeted field.

What if the Asgard could develop a similar ship-based weapon that primarily affected the Wraith ships? That seems very possible, at least to me. SGA has access to a Wraith dart to examine it, and combining the existing data and technologies, would it not be possible to design a ship-based weapon that could disable the Wraith ships in space while avoiding the planets?

The Dakara device had a limited effect (anything on the surface or in close orbit) so I think it would be possible to refine this technology to work against the Wraith ships. That is, once we know more about those ships. They are basically biological, aren't they?

Anyway, just a thought.

_Owen_
August 15th, 2005, 09:44 PM
Yes, or they could create a nanovirus that attacks Wraith DNA. Then they release them throughout pegasus, after removing the Athosians etc. With parts of Wraith DNA, then have a giant EMP ready just in case something goes wrong.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
August 15th, 2005, 10:04 PM
True, he doesn't specifically say that the device seeds life but to deal with the creation or recreation of life at all, the device must somehow manipulate DNA.

Owen Macri
It could just be to clear out all life tho.
Another device could do the life creation.

Schrodinger82
August 19th, 2005, 09:17 PM
True, he doesn't specifically say that the device seeds life but to deal with the creation or recreation of life at all, the device must somehow manipulate DNA.

Owen Macri

Okay, how do I put this delicately? Hmm... how, how indeed? Oh, that's right...

NO!!!

Again, it doesn't work like that. It makes no sense to work like that. And we have seen NOTHING that suggest that it DOES work like that.

JACOB: Sam? (Sam looks up from the generator.) You might wanna hold off on that for a minute. If I’m reading this screen right, the weapon uses an energy wave to reduce all matter to its basic molecular elements. It’s not strong enough to disintegrate an entire planet, but it will wash away everything on a planet’s surface and everything in the surrounding space.

That's it. That's all we know about what the device does. That's all that we've SEEN it do. Unless we explicitly here the words "the device on Dakara seeds life" or "the device on Dakara manipulates DNA," then we have absolutely no reason to believe that it does. And since we have absolutely no reason to believe that it does, that means no plot hole.

Not to mention the fact that it doesn't really make much sense sense to begin with. I mean, it's not like you can take a fish, give it new DNA, and have it magically turn into a human being overnight, complete with skeleton, brain, and basic intelligence -- and enough genetic variance between individuals to allow for sexual reproduction. Life is a WEE bit more complicated than that.

And one more thing. We've seen the controls on the device. We've seen the output mechanism. Now, does anyone honestly belief that you can program the device to completely recrete DNA to a precise 3,000,000,000 unit sequence by moving a dozen or so stones back and forth?

I don't think so.

LincolnFord
August 21st, 2005, 08:28 PM
Okay, how do I put this delicately? Hmm... how, how indeed? Oh, that's right...

NO!!!

Again, it doesn't work like that. It makes no sense to work like that. And we have seen NOTHING that suggest that it DOES work like that.

JACOB: Sam? (Sam looks up from the generator.) You might wanna hold off on that for a minute. If I’m reading this screen right, the weapon uses an energy wave to reduce all matter to its basic molecular elements. It’s not strong enough to disintegrate an entire planet, but it will wash away everything on a planet’s surface and everything in the surrounding space.

That's it. That's all we know about what the device does. That's all that we've SEEN it do. Unless we explicitly here the words "the device on Dakara seeds life" or "the device on Dakara manipulates DNA," then we have absolutely no reason to believe that it does. And since we have absolutely no reason to believe that it does, that means no plot hole.

Not to mention the fact that it doesn't really make much sense sense to begin with. I mean, it's not like you can take a fish, give it new DNA, and have it magically turn into a human being overnight, complete with skeleton, brain, and basic intelligence -- and enough genetic variance between individuals to allow for sexual reproduction. Life is a WEE bit more complicated than that.

And one more thing. We've seen the controls on the device. We've seen the output mechanism. Now, does anyone honestly belief that you can program the device to completely recrete DNA to a precise 3,000,000,000 unit sequence by moving a dozen or so stones back and forth?

I don't think so.
My original point is that it (similar weapon) could have been used to battle the wraith. Find the wraith homeworld, setup a distraction drawing the extent of their fleet away then come from other side of planet and build a forcefield like the Ori did in Beachhead giving themselves time to construct the device and using it on the wraith's homeworld.

_Owen_
August 23rd, 2005, 08:18 AM
Unless we explicitly here the words "the device on Dakara seeds life"


Wanna know the irony of it all? That device was originally used by the Ancients to create life in the Milky Way ... well, recreate it after the whole plague thing.

And this is? It is true, it does not say the device "seeds life" however it does say it creates it.

Now, if you don't mind I would like to keep this discussion civil...

Owen Macri

Schrodinger82
August 24th, 2005, 02:20 AM
And this is? It is true, it does not say the device "seeds life" however it does say it creates it.

Yes, he did say that. Right before he corrected himself on his position.

What he actually says is that the device was "used" to "recreate" life.

As we've already explained, the word "use" can apply to any step in an entire process.

For instance, suppose I made a statement that I "use" a fork to "eat" spaghetti. Now, does that mean that the fork serves as part of my digestive system? No, it just means that the fork was instrumental in the overall process.

As we further explained, this "use" can refer to creating a clean slate post-plague. This is supported by empirical evidence from the show, as this interpretation would not only be contextually consistent with what Anubis said, but factually consistent with how the device works. In terms of not only description, but also the controls. Again, how the heck are you suppose to program a device to recognize and re-construct a 3,000,000,000 unit long genetic sequence by pushing a dozen or so stones up and down?

Finally, and most important of all, the whole idea that the device resequences DNA doesn't make any sense. I mean, we can't even describe how such a device that seeds life via the stargate would ever even work.

Logic dictates that there, the device does NOT work by manipulating DNA. Furthermore, logic dictates that it shouldn't have to, since the quote you've provided is far insufficient for showing that it does.

_Owen_
August 24th, 2005, 10:12 PM
The word recreating is equal to creating multiple times. While the word is diffrent, it still means basically the same thing. When you recreate a piece of art, you are still creating another piece of art.

The device must somehow tamper with DNA, seeing as it is an integral part of life, and if it is going to be creating or recreating life it must somehow alter or create it.

Owen Macri

Schrodinger82
August 25th, 2005, 01:10 AM
The word recreating is equal to creating multiple times. While the word is diffrent, it still means basically the same thing. When you recreate a piece of art, you are still creating another piece of art.

You're not listening, dude. We've explained this to you.

The phrase "used to" can refer to any step in an entire process.

For instance, the act of running my car involves having some sort of internal combustion engine that allows it to move forward and backwards. But if I use the phrase "I use my key to run my car," it does NOT mean the same thing as "I use my key to function as an internal combustion engine."

The act of eating requires that I ingest some sort of foreign substance, where it is broken down and absorbed in my digestive system. But if I use the phrase "I use my fork to eat spaghetti," it does NOT mean the same thing as "I use a fork as a substitute for my internal digestive system."

And finally, the phrase "The device on Dakara was used to recreate life" does not equal "the device on Dakara manipulates DNA."


The device must somehow tamper with DNA,

WRONG.

That's a blatantly false assumption on your part with absolutely nothing to back it up other than a completely unnecessary extrapolation on your part.


seeing as it is an integral part of life, and if it is going to be creating or recreating life it must somehow alter or create it.

Now you're just regurgitating yourself in the face of insurmountable evidence against you.

Your basic fallacy of confusing a necessary device with a sufficient device. In other words, we know that the device on Dakara was necessary in order to recreate life. We do not, and have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that the device would be sufficient.

In order to recreate, you need two parts: First, the destruction of the old, and the creation of the new. Both parts are neccessary, but neither part is sufficient. Do you understand that? Am I going slowly enough for you to follow?

We know that the device on Dakara is capable of destroying matter. We know this because this is how it is described on the show. It successfully fulfils the first criterion of "recreation," and thus, would be consistent with what Anubis said. That does not mean that it fulfils the second criterion. Especially considering that we have absolutely no reason to believe it should have to.

Again, am I going slowly enough for you? Do I have to go even slower?

Once again, a device that would work by manipulating DNA wouldn't even work, because you couldn't seed complex life in this manner. Furthermore, the level of complexity involved would be impossible to accomplish via the controls that we've seen. Finally, the way you're describing how the device works is completely different from how Sam's dad described it.

An Ancient
August 25th, 2005, 02:19 AM
As has been noted I think already, an 'original' form of the Dakara weapon mounted in an dusrupter like the one O'Neill used could be a very effective weapon against the Wraith.

I'd like to also put foward my own theory on why the Ancient's lost Pegasus, we know from 'Before I Sleep' that Pegasus/Earth travel was rare/non-existent, but also remember what went to Pegasus, one city, with perhaps a few escorts. Not the entire Ancient civilisation, their millitary, or their best minds. If they went there to 'explore' the place, then essentially the wraith were not up against the Ancients, they were up against a a small bunch of explorers with no idea how to fight a war save perhaps a few on the warships and a couple of scientists who could experiment with new weapons. As such, they would've been far easier to overcome, and even then they chewed the Wraith up quite well in the process. It's like saying that just because 3rd world country X defeated 150 US Marines and a few thousand researchers on an isolated island, that they could take on the entire US.

_Owen_
August 27th, 2005, 10:05 PM
You're not listening, dude. We've explained this to you.

The phrase "used to" can refer to any step in an entire process.

For instance, the act of running my car involves having some sort of internal combustion engine that allows it to move forward and backwards. But if I use the phrase "I use my key to run my car," it does NOT mean the same thing as "I use my key to function as an internal combustion engine."

The act of eating requires that I ingest some sort of foreign substance, where it is broken down and absorbed in my digestive system. But if I use the phrase "I use my fork to eat spaghetti," it does NOT mean the same thing as "I use a fork as a substitute for my internal digestive system."

And finally, the phrase "The device on Dakara was used to recreate life" does not equal "the device on Dakara manipulates DNA."

You are walking an almost non-existent line. First of all, you don't use your key to run your car you use it to trigger the procces which starts your car. You don't use your fork to eat spaghetti, you use your fork to transfer the spaghetti from your plate or bowl to your mouth.

Ok, to create life, recreate life, or whatever you must tamper with DNA, that is inevitable, the device was used to recreate life in the milky way galaxy, how exactly do you propose that it was only one step in the process, and what exactly completed the other steps/where the other steps.


WRONG.

That's a blatantly false assumption on your part with absolutely nothing to back it up other than a completely unnecessary extrapolation on your part.

My what big reasoning you have!

Then if you do not believe this is the way in which the Dakara device works, please propose to me how it could recreate life based on what we have seen.

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
August 27th, 2005, 10:11 PM
this thread seemed interesting enough to bring me out of retirement.

down to business.

i dont really think it would be possible to program the dakara device to kill a specific race, especially when that race shares genes with humans and ancients. the device is programmed to break the molecular bonds of everything it hits so that everything is broken down into its base elements, correct? now they were able to program the device to emit the specific "frequency" if you will, that broke the bonds between the replicator blocks. now that was possible because the nature of the replicators design and the biological systems of everything else were so radically different. however the similarities between the wraith and most other life would be much greater. carbon based life forms cellular make up is basically the same, just different configurations basically. so an energy wave that would break down the wraith would most likely affect most other biological creatures, and definately would effect humans and ancients since the wraith are human/bug hybrids, and Ancients are just more advanced humans. its highly unlikely that the device could be programmed to just effect the wraith.
I agree totally, sorry Owen but i think you are wrong on this one lol, well i guess there is a first time for everything

Schrodinger82
August 27th, 2005, 11:57 PM
You are walking an almost non-existent line. First of all, you don't use your key to run your car you use it to trigger the procces which starts your car. You don't use your fork to eat spaghetti, you use your fork to transfer the spaghetti from your plate or bowl to your mouth.

And you don't use the weapon on Dakara to seed life, you use it to break down matter post-plague so that you have a blank slate to start with. Thank you, the same logic applies in all circumstance.

And just out of curiousity, how many people do you know who run their cars without first using a key, or who eat spaghetti without first using a fork?


Ok, to create life, recreate life, or whatever you must tamper with DNA, that is inevitable, the device was used to recreate life in the milky way galaxy, how exactly do you propose that it was only one step in the process, and what exactly completed the other steps/where the other steps.

Once again, sufficient definition versus necessary definition.

Here, I'll draw a finer example for you. Suppose I make the statement, "I use a security camera to see what's going on in the store."

So does that mean that a survelliance camera on it's own will allow me to see what's going on? No. Because I still need other devices, such as a television monitor, an electrical system, wire cabling, a set of eyes, a brain to process information, etc.

The security camera is arguably a necessary step in this process, but not a sufficient one.

Or, let's say "I use my key to get inside my house." Again, necessary, but not sufficient. For instance, in addition to using my key, I also have to open the door and walk forward. Neither one is implied through the "use" of a key, but that does not mean that a key was not used.


Then if you do not believe this is the way in which the Dakara device works, please propose to me how it could recreate life based on what we have seen.

False dilema. Just because we don't know which device they DID use doesn't mean it had to be the weapon on Dakara. We also don't know how the Ancients built their ZPM's or how they went to the bathroom, but I'm pretty sure that the weapon on Dakara wasn't responsible either of those as well.

How did the Ancients do it? Honestly, we don't know how much of the "seeding" was done by them, and how much was done by the Gou'ald. Most of the time, the only examples we have of "alien life" are people and trees, which the gou'ald could have brought with them. We also need to get more details on the plague itself, which will be available later this season.

However, we do know that the Gou'ald managed to seed life without the Dakara device.

We also know that the Ancients were once able to seed life without the Dakara device as well, seeing as how they already seeded life around the galaxy pre-plague, where as the Dakara device wasn't built until post-plague.

Hence, it stands to reason that the Ancients have a means of seeding life outside of the Dakara device. It also stands to reason that the controls on the Dakara device are nowhere near complex enough to handle the operation itself. And so, it stands to reason that they did not, in fact, use the Dakara device to seed life.

Col. Newman
August 28th, 2005, 06:58 AM
And you don't use the weapon on Dakara to seed life, you use it to break down matter post-plague so that you have a blank slate to start with.
exactly, Owen seems to be losing brain cell or something lately, less weed for Owen :D