PDA

View Full Version : As the "Stargate" Turns



morjana
June 25th, 2004, 12:40 PM
I was over noodling around Zap2It, and found this article. It's dated July 4! Looks like I found a way to travel ahead in time...

From Zap2It:

http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,274|88909|1|,00.html

As the 'Stargate' Turns
(Sunday, July 04 12:02 AM)
By Kate O'Hare

Who cares if the Goa'uld System Lords are about to attack Earth, or if the Asgard are going to show up in time to save the day, or if the giant Ancient Weapon is of any more use to Earth than a pea-shooter?

The real question looming as Sci-Fi Channel's "Stargate SG-1" starts its eighth season Friday, July 9, is: Will cryogenically frozen Col. Jack O'Neill be thawed and survive so that he and Maj. Samantha Carter can hook up ... or not?

To be fair, plenty of fans care about the System Lords and all that other plot stuff, but quite a few spend a lot of their time discussing, arguing and speculating about the love lives (or lack, thereof) of the main characters. They're the 'shippers (from the word "relationship"), and throughout science-fiction and fantasy television, they're among the most vocal and ardent fans.


In fact, the strong feelings of the 'shippers have had an effect on the development of the "Stargate: SG-1" spin-off, "Stargate: Atlantis," which premieres next week and will, after its two-hour premiere, share Friday nights with its predecessor.

"We're not going to set up obvious chemistry between our core characters on 'Atlantis,' " says executive producer Brad Wright, who works on both shows. "Especially when 'Stargate' was so divided between 'shippers and non-'shippers, and I didn't even know what that meant until long after we were doing it."

The main 'shipper issue on "Stargate: SG-1" concerns O'Neill (Richard Dean Anderson) and his subordinate officer, Carter (Amanda Tapping). Back in season four, in an episode called "Beneath the Surface," Wright and fellow executive producer Robert C. Cooper took a test swing at this by having the characters forget who they were while in captivity, therefore removing the impediments of military rank.

Wright says, "It struck us, if there was an attraction, and if they don't remember who they were, they might fall into a relationship, because they didn't know they were prohibited from doing so. Oh, the mail I got from that.

"Turns out there are as many people who want them to be together as don't want them to be together."

Apparently, a character's demise is no impediment to 'shippers who want to pair up archaeologist Daniel Jackson (Michael Shanks) and SG-1's late medical officer, Dr. Janet Fraiser (Teryl Rothery), who met her fate last season in Part 2 of "Heroes."

"There's a whole camp of people who want Daniel to get together with Janet," Wright says, "even though she's dead now. I just think it's interesting, because they like the characters so much, the fans want them to be happy. They see them as the perfect couple -- why don't they just get together?"

It's this passionate attachment that has contributed to the success of "Stargate" both on cable and in syndication.

Anderson says, "Ultimately, what's kept it together over the years has been, in great part-- aside from the stories that we're able to tell, the great imaginations of everyone involved -- is the chemistry on-screen of the people telling the stories."

Just how long this can continue remains an open question. Wright says, "I had said categorically there was going to be no season seven, and here we are shooting season eight. I've stopped predicting."

When those words are relayed to him on set, Anderson -- who has scaled back his working days on the show's Vancouver location to spend more time with his daughter -- gives a sidelong look.

"I have no idea about nine," he says. "I wasn't so sure about eight or seven, for that matter. But as far as if you're asking, what is my future and my intentions, my intentions right now, as we speak, are to finish this year, be as integral a part of the franchise as I possibly can, and as I go through the process, helping to launch 'Atlantis' with my brief presence.

"Then, my intention is to retire, with quotes around it, because I don't know what retirement means to a workaholic. But I'm going to have to learn."

This season, fans will have to be satisfied with some big life changes for O'Neill and Carter that don't necessarily involve romance.

"O'Neill is now Lord God King Boo-Foo O'Neill," Tapping says. "And Sam's just Supersmart Sam. That's all I can tell you."

For those who want Sam to put her love life on hold for O'Neill, Tapping says "tough." Her police-detective boyfriend, Pete Shanahan (David DeLuise), is coming back.

"He's not dead yet," she says, alluding to the high mortality rate among former Carter loves. "There's a huge hue and cry on the Internet from people who don't want Sam to be with him. They want her to be with O'Neill -- and probably, deep down, Sam does, too. But she's given up on the idea of unrequited love and decided to live her life. But never say never, right?"


|*|(*)|*|(*)|*|

Morjana

SG1-Spoilergate
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/SG1-Spoilergate/

Richard Dean Anderson Fans
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rdandersonfans/

Slainte
June 25th, 2004, 01:52 PM
I was over noodling around Zap2It, and found this article. It's dated July 4! Looks like I found a way to travel ahead in time...

From Zap2It:

http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,274|88909|1|,00.html

But never say never, right?"


I've reached the stage where I'm just saying we (shippers/antishippers generic) are SO being played.

Cynical, me?

tara3583
June 25th, 2004, 09:58 PM
Interesting read, i liked Amanda's comment
about Pete not being dead YET! LOL wonder if
she know's somthing:)
Anyway s8 sounds like an interesting road
that Sam is going to take, i'm just hoping
that tptb will let Jack join her at some
point!

Madeleine
June 25th, 2004, 10:08 PM
One question - what's a 'Boo-Foo'? Is it some Canadian or US slang or cultural reference? Could a confuddled Brit have a translation please!

majorsal
June 25th, 2004, 10:25 PM
One question - what's a 'Boo-Foo'? Is it some Canadian or US slang or cultural reference? Could a confuddled Brit have a translation please!

I just asked that question myself, Madeleine.<g> I have no idea what it's supposed to mean. It isn't US slang, that's for sure. Wait... I'm so out of what's going on outside of my room, it could be the new president. <g>

Sally :)

binkpmmc
June 26th, 2004, 01:51 AM
I know I may be in the minority with the opinion I am about to set forth but I have been comfortable here (which I cannot say about other forums I have visited where, if you stray even a little from the opinions of the posters, you get blasted). As I have said in the past on posts here I have not been a shipper for any pairing nor an anti-shipper for any pairing so I will just go ahead and post my thoughts and perhaps some will agree with it a little or a lot or not at all but I just need to vent a little and get this out of the way.
.
I read this newest article with a touch of sadness that Stargate SG1 - what was once, IMO, one of the best Sci-Fi shows available - has, in some ways, become a sad, poorly written soap opera wanna-be, IMO. It has gotten to the stage where many of the spoilers are about romance and love lives of the characters and on top of that many of the news and magazine stories we are seeing prior to the new season are discussing love lives of the characters (all 4 of the main characters not just Sam and Jack) and the focus on the S/J stuff is really starting to bug me. I was not a shipper or an anti-shipper of any pairing - I just really never cared about it and never really saw it I just enjoyed the show and watched for the team interaction (and admit that along the way Sam had become one of my favorites but her acceptance of the pete behaviour turned that south for me) and their adventures and well written sci-fi stories about their off-world adventures and their adventures with their enemies and friends alike.
.
Now though, I must say, that with all of the focus on love lives, and shippiness I am bordering on becoming an anti-shipper, S/J or any other kind of ship they care to try and throw at us. As one poster here just said - TPTB, and the actors, are playng the fans. They vacillate/dither on this and they play games and they contradict themselves all over the da*n place and it really is starting to grate. I did not watch the show for poorly written love stories or soap opera style nonsense. The writers are sci-fi writers and, IMO, they were pretty darn good at it, at one time. They are, however, lousy soap opera/love story/romance writers. Now with the ship, love lives, romance crap eeking into almost everything they do and say in some way it is losing its magic for me.
.
I know I am only one lonely voice out here and one lonely viewer whose absence will not affect the nielsen ratings but since it seems that at least Joe Mallozzi and Amanda Tapping visit here I really hope they or other PTB see this so they know they lost at least one, what used to be, true fan who, if not at home on a Friday, would tape it. Now - I don't think so. If I'm home and "Absolutely Fabulous" is on against it as it was this past season, I'll choose AbFab. Whereas last season I always chose SG1 and would catch AbFab in re-runs - that show is hilarious if you have not seen it and you like British humour you must try to catch it in re-runs if you can. (I almost forgot that Star Trek Voyager will be an alternative choice too.)
.
Anyway, please don't bash me about this - it's just my opinion and I am currently in a very cynical place about the show (as well as other things, particularly a certain FORMER President) and what we are hearing and being fed by TPTB and the actors and I just have decided it's probably time for me to part ways with Stargate SG1. In some way I wanted to put this out there to see if I really am alone in this opinion of how the show has lost its magic for some or if there are a few people out there who are feeling the same way about it.
.
Finally what also bothers me, because Sam did become a favorite, is the way that Ms. Tapping has completely, at least IMO, turned around on her opinions of what she wanted for the character of Sam in the past year. Over the first 6 seasons or so she always insisted she wanted Sam to be strong, independent and not "the girl" and not "Jack's girl" and not to be seen as "pining away for Jack". Well as far as I can see from the last several interviews, and in what has appeared on some of the DVD commentaries for Season 7, we have quotes from Ms. Tapping basically confirming that Sam has held feelings for Jack that she (Sam) has now admitted to herself so she needs to "move on" and that she has given up on "unrequited love". This is soooo very contradictory to everything she has said in the past about the character it just makes me realize that they will pretty much say anything as long as it's what they think people want to hear and they seem willing to disregard what they have said in the past. They remind me of politicians that way and I have no patience for politicians either. Lastly, and I have said this in detail on this forum before, the strong, independent Sam was pretty much lost for me when she so readily accepted what I saw to be pete's disrespectful and dishonest behaviour. Also, it seems contradictory of the strong, independent woman Ms. Tapping wanted to portray Sam as being for her to just “accept” this guy pete even though he’s not necessarily the “great guy” she wants/wanted (can’t recall the exact quote but that was the gist of what I got out of it from one of her interviews earlier this summer (either Cult Times or Sci-Fi – I cannot recall). Anyway, this is just my opinion, agree, disagree but, please, don't hurt me!

Anthro Girl
June 26th, 2004, 01:58 AM
I wonder if that article was meant to be "published" on 7/4, but it got added to the database a little early? :p

Re: "Boo-Foo"...given the limitations of print media, it is a little hard to tell if she said "boo-foo" or "boffo", but both are slang meaning roughly the equivalent of "excellent" or "cool".

Madeleine
June 26th, 2004, 02:23 AM
Binkpmmc, I do understand where you're coming from, I've felt a lot of those things myself at times. But the situation might not be as bad as this article makes it seem.

First off, there's an acknowledgement from Brad Wright that people exist who are not S/J shippers, but quite the opposite. It's a nice change from some articles which talk about S/J as something 'everybody wants'. Perhaps TPTB are going to bear that in mind, as well as the fact that there are people who don't give a monkey either way, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the SF.

I disliked reading the last bit: too bad, shippers, Pete's back (turns and faces other way) but deep down Sam wants to be with Jack, (turns and faces original way) but she's given up on the idea of unrequited love and decided to live her life (I'm getting dizzy here) but never say never...

BUT - was all this one statement from Amanda? Were those the actual words she used, or did the interviewer paraphrase? Did she explain things in a lot more detail only for the comments she made to be pared and spliced into the piece we have above?

It's been pointed out to me by a friend that this piece looks as if it was written to support a particular viewpoint, and nothing wrong with that, but it's not really down to TPTB or Amanda, rather to the writer of the interview. It's not *necessarily* indicative of a further leaning towards increased shippiness in the show.

I always was impressed by Amanda's initial resistance to S/J or to making Sam wet & weedy. It *is* disappointing to read things nowadays that seem to say the opposite, but *whenever* I read quotes or interviews that I dislike or that annoy me, I try to think 'innocent until proven guilty'; they may have used tones and body language which altered the meaning of the words, and they might have been quoted out of context or edited until their original intent was gone.

ETA - Also, every now and again along comes an interview full of stuff about xxx, and people say 'Crikey, is xxx all that one ever talks about? Don't they think yyy matters?'. But maybe the *interviewer* was the one who asked seventeen questions about xxx and didn't let them even mention yyy. There's seldom any way to tell, so... well, in my little world it's possible to give the benefit of the doubt to all parties :)

keshou
June 26th, 2004, 05:35 AM
Binkpmmc, I understand your misgivings. I have also been concerned that every other article seems to focus on 'ship and Sam's love life. The producers keep saying it's just a small thread in the show and yet it seems to be the focus of many of the interviews. Of course who knows what's being left on the editing floor. I have also been a non-shipper but at this point I'm just becoming sick of the whole thing.

HOWEVER, *this* particular article seems to be more a commentary on fandom than on the show itself. If every other interview is about Sam's love life I think that is more indicative of the interviewers' belief that this particular issue interests the "ardent" fans more than any reflection of the true direction of the show. I think we had a lot of "ship" in the last half of season 7 because they originally thought "Lost City" would be the finale for SG-1. Now all bets are off and I'm hopeful that there's still a lot of "sci" left in this scifi show.

This article comes across as one in which quotes are taken out of context and mashed into the areas of the article where the interviewer thinks they'd fit. AT's comments don't even make much sense. Sounds like she's very frustrated to me, maybe even with the interviewer, as she talks about O'Neill being lord god king boo-foo O'Neill --- what the heck does that mean?? This is one time you really need to know if AT was laughing when she said it or was serious.

I really feel for AT right now - I think she's taking a lot of things to heart and I'd advise her to pile all the pro and con letters (unopened) in a corner and stop worrying about it. Tell the interviewer you'll answer any questions they have, except about Sam's love life. There's a lot more to Sam than that. I think some of the focus on 'ship may die down a little as the season starts. There's an interesting storyline coming up for Sam/AT that has nothing to do with her love life and and I'm curious to see how it plays out.

Slainte
June 26th, 2004, 06:41 AM
Binkpmmc, I'm with you on this one.

This article is consistant with TPTB inconsistancy over character development.

Why can't they make a choice concerning the characters onscreen romantic lives, or lack of, and stick with it? I can happily live with either choice, but I hate this ambiguity, this inconsistancy.

Why can't we expect carefully thought out characterizations that remain consistant over time.

Consistancy is not a bad word. It actually is respectful of the characters, the story and the fans.

Can you tell this is a hot button for me. I hate feeling like I'm being played to stir up controversy and ratings.

Elfinwood
June 26th, 2004, 10:15 AM
Well, the tune must have changed regarding Atlantis, because I remember reading an earlier article revealing that two of the main characters were going to be attracted to each other.

As for Stargate, I feel that the romance angle has always been a part of the show. I'm not just talking S/J here. There have been other pairings. Although, for some reason, those are never brought up in the discussions and interviews. Perhaps because they have always been with a main character paired with a character who was obviously just there to move along a storyline. The main focus was always on the storyline, not the pairing. Now I'm starting to see a shift in direction with a solid storyline being secondary to the viewer seeing a characters romantic life (and I don't just mean Chimera or the S/J pairing). Seems to me that they have no one else to blame but themselves for the fan reaction and for the issue of romance versus noromo.

As for S/J, I have always enjoyed that angle. It keeps me coming back to the show for more. I am drawn to the characters and to the actors who put the faces on those two characters. I've always felt that the romance was done in such a way that it enticed viewers like myself, but never was meant to be the focus of the show. I've never seen "the googly eyes" that some fans have complained about or even "the pining" that AT has mentioned. If anything, AT's portrayal of Sam over the years has made me believe just the opposite. I have seen a woman who thinks "yeah, that would be nice, but this is what I do and who I am." In my opinion, their feelings for each other has never been, this season or any other season, the focus of the show.

If TPTB feel that the 'ship factor is so detrimental to their show/s, maybe they should try writing some great stories where showing a characters personal side does not always have to equate to a romantic relationship. Why not deal with Daniel's changed outlook since his ascension more fully? All we heard was that it changed him. How? Show us! Show us Sam struggling with a command role. But then we wouldn't have so much controversy, would we? Then again, maybe that is what they really want from all of us, after all.

sgeureka
June 26th, 2004, 11:05 AM
binkpmmc, don't let such articles destroy what you still like about the show. I think Madeleine covered about every aspect of how some articles should not be taken too seriously. Not TPTB are writing the articles, other people do that. She [the interviewer and writer] probably enjoys shippiness and isn't aware how other people feel about that. I am certain that the same could happen to me if I had to write an article about a show whose online fandom I don't know.

Also, an article writer has to worry that readers understand whats/he is talking about. Would an article about wormhole theory or a deep analysis of the history the Ancients be published in TV guide? Or is it more likely that you would find such an article in a Cult magazine? This article didn't appear in a Stargate special or in a scifi magazine where the publishers know what their audience is. So what would the main topic of a Stargate article be so that anyone who doesn't know the show would read it ? - Most likely ship. Much to the dismay of fans who like other aspects of the show. :(

And, AT doesn't write for her character. If the script says the story goes like this when before it has still been ambiguous (and the writers/producers will already have discussed the pros and cons of developing an arc into a certain direction at this point), then AT can't change how she has interpreted the ambiguity up to this point. And she can't tell how her character's future will be because, as I've said, she doesn't write for her character. When AT comments on Carter's "relationship" to O'Neill (I really don't want to be in her position when all you seem to get asked is "When will you finally hop into bed with each other?"), she usually adds something like "but we can't because of our military ranks". So she tries to keep it open to the viewers instead of telling what's right and what's wrong. But she can't change series canon ("Grace").

With all that being said, I also didn't enjoy this article too much because it seems to force a certain perspective onto the reader. I am glad that TPTB know that not all fans like this or that, because, frankly, they don't have to listen to any fan and could just do what they want. I appreciate that they want to please as many fans as possible, since in the end I am also a big fan of the show.

Roatbaum
June 26th, 2004, 11:25 AM
Whats the matter with the way things are now? Why do they have to have a 'relationship'? How could they care more for each other if they were having sex, or whatever it is that you all think they are lacking? What is it, exactly that they need to do to have this relationship?

Anthro Girl
June 26th, 2004, 12:02 PM
I'd advise her to pile all the pro and con letters (unopened) in a corner and stop worrying about it.

I agree. I think the entire crew should do the same. I've been quite shocked and somewhat dismayed with what some viewers interpret as 'ship, especially when it isn't obvious that the writers/actors/directors intended it.

From what I've seen, about the same number of people are for ship as opposed to it. Then there are people like myself who don't give a flying fig one way or the other as long as it's entertaining. This automatically puts the cast and crew in a "damed-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't" situation. If that's the case - and I suspect from that article that they know the score - then they should just forget the clamoring and just do what they want to do with the characters.

David
June 26th, 2004, 01:47 PM
All very good points, binkpmmc, but lemme offer a suggestion. When Season Eight reaches your area, give yourself permission to watch the season premiere. For the most part it will set the tone for the rest of the year. Don't care to watch the developments you see? All the more power to you! But this year is going to see a lot of major changes. And don't forget Stargate Atlantis!

Take good care.

binkpmmc
June 28th, 2004, 07:51 PM
TO ALL WHO RESPONDED TO MY EARLIER POST and to others who care to read:

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. I will wrap my response into one and try to make some sense.

I do understand that articles and statements are sometimes written, and taken, out of context - I work at a company that this happens to and it is annoying. I took this into account as I read these articles. I also know that these actors, producers, etc., will "spin" things the way they think will be most acceptable to their audience. I guess what really did it for me with this article was the fact that, after having seen earlier articles, what has been said at conventions and what some of the recent DVD commentaries have said making similar statements, it all just started to gel and became clear to me what the focus was becoming.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
S
E
A
S
O
N
S
7
&
8

I watched this show because it was a good sci-fi show. It was an escape from the real world with a touch of reality in the way the characters had developed over the years. They showed genuine feelings and respect for each other equally. I always used my own perceptions to form an opinion of what the show and the charactrers were about, and the writers, actors, etc., allowed me to do so, until the second half of season 7. Through 6 1/2 years of SG1 episodes I saw no "ship". I saw a team that worked well together, they were great friends and they were funny. They went on wild rides off-world, they saved the world and were always heroes. They genuinely cared for each other, dare I say loved each other, to me the 4 of them loved each other as friends equally - there was no "relationship" between any 2 characters that went beyond that for me.

Ms. Tapping, Mr. Cooper and others have taken the ability for me to form my own perceptions of what is happening away from me by making the "feelings" Sam has for Jack fact. I fear that I will no longer be able to separate the Sam I knew from the Sam that Ms. Tapping and others have now made fact with their continued comments on the issue of Sam's "unrequited" love for Jack. With Grace, I was willing to give Sam the benefit of the doubt. The comment about giving up her career came out of the blue for me but I was willing to overlook it. Now, after seeing many of the recent comments and quotes etc., Ms. Tapping has made the "feelings for Jack" real and that statement now holds true meaning and it rocked my perception of what I thought Sam was about and how she had been portrayed for 6 1/2 years.

The things I liked about the show were the off-world adventures, the team Janet, Hammond, new races. Now we are told, that SG1's role is now more "defense" many of the stories will focus on the SGC and be earth based. From what I have read about the first 11 episodes so far there will be very little about new races. Okay fine - if it stopped there but it doesn't. I liked the team (all 4) together. In S7 we saw the 4 of them separated a lot and it sounds that S8 will be much of the same. (Yes there will be eps where the 4 are together but as in S7 it sounds like those will be few and far between and much of that togetherness will likely be at the SGC - not off-world). The focus on personal lives does not stop with Sam, some of the Teal'c stories do not sound very interesting - they are earth based and I really do not care to see Teal'c's personal life or love affair with a neighbor. I really do not need to see the personal lives or affairs or boyfriend/girlfriend/romantic interest for Tealc, Sam, Daniel or anyone else. Let them have their personal lives just do not waste screen time - that's not sci-fi - IMO that's a lousy soap opera. I also liked the interaction with Hammond and Janet, we all know what happened to Janet. With Hammond we may get 2 or 3 eps with him. So far Prometheus Unbound sounds boring as Daniel and Hammond are separated from the others and it has - tada - a "romantic interest" for Daniel - Vala.

Now to pete. Ms. Tapping said many times prior to and during S7 that she was going to be basing the character of Sam on reality - on the very real issues many women face when they reach a certain age and start to question their life decisions. I thought this was noble and I thought it would prove interesting. If they say they are going to portray and write something based on a very real issue that many very real women do in fact go through then they better darn well be prepared for very real reactions, especially from the very real women Ms. Tapping claims to be emulating. Through comments we see that Sam's "moving on" with pete is nothing but an acceptance of something she can have because she cannot have what she has wanted all along, Jack. The statements she made in that article (I cannot recall if it was Sci-Fi or Cult Times) about not being able to have Jack so she would accept this guy were just ridiculous. IMO, totally out of character.

Mr. Cooper in particular seems to be reacting defensively about pete with his churlish comments about people having "issues" (from what I hear iabout the commentary on DVD VoL 37 DVD The Lost City, Mr. Cooper is the last person who should be discussing other people's so-called issues). Apparently Ms. Tapping has received nasty mail about this questioning her morals and basically being mean - I am not questioning her morals and I am certainly not trying to be mean, I want her to understand that, setting aside the extreme reactions that may be coming from some shippers and anti-shippers, there are fans, like me, who have reacted negatively to pete but who have tried to be even-handed and fair with their comments.

In some ways, perhaps I am saying that I feel Ms. Tapping has sold Sam out on this one. This bothers me because she worked so hard to create such a wonderful character in the first place. Ms. Tapping has always said she wanted Sam to be seen as strong, independent, respected and intelligent and that she was aware of the fact that young girls, and yes, even older women, looked at Sam as a role-model. Until Chimera I was right there with her. After Chimera I was out the door and 10 miles away right after she walks into the infirmary at the end all smiles, gives him a present and proceeds to tell him all about the SGC program. How out of character. Let's see - father, former General, sorry can't tell you what I do, until he's dying. Stephen Raynor ooops sorry here's a cover story for you too. Ex-wife Sarah - sees dead son at hospital - sorry can't tell you either. Chimera contradictory? Yes. Plot-device? Yes but could have been done differently so as not to make Sam look quite so ____.

I digress, back to the pete and Sam thing. Above all else, the character of Sam has been lost for me because of the way she accepted being treated by pete. Ms. Tapping, in Sci-Fi magazine dismissed his behaviour because it is supposedly "human nature" to be "inquisitive" and she thought his behaviour was completely excusable. Later in Cult Times, she said that pete is a "good" guy and that he is "honest". This, to me, does not reflect real life.

Addressing the "good" guy and "honest" comments of Ms. Tapping - as I see it if a guy walked out on me in a snit (yes it was a snit as he was still putting on his shoes as he went to his truck!) the morning after our first night together because I told him I Could not tell him anymore about my work I would wring his neck. He walked out in a snit over not getting his way - where is the respect, maturity, honesty or goodness in that behaviour? While sitting in his truck, still in front of her house after leaving her, he has a friend at the FBI look into her background even though she told him she Couldn't tell him, where is the respect, honesty and trust in that? He does not bother to try and get in touch with her to talk about it, where is the maturity, respect or honesty? When he craps out with his FBI friend and is told basically to leave it alone, what does this good, honest guy do - sits outside her house waiting to follow her - honest, respectful, mature - I don't see it but am open to explainations. He follows her and ends up at the stakeout and - surprise- he's got night vision binoculars so he can watch her van all night. Then last, but certainly not least, as she exits the van he calmly walks up to her (no gun drawn so he was not going to help her) interrupting her at what appears to be a critical moment as Sam was going to help Jack, Daniel and Teal'c. This is what we were shown in the second half and, pardon me, but I fail to see any honesty, respect, dignity, maturity or goodness from any of pete's actions.

It is troubling that Ms. Tapping sees fit to excuse the behaviour and seems to be saying to the fans who hold Sam up as role model that it is okay to be treated with disrepsect and dishonesty and it is acceptable and excuseable. I feel sorry for the young girls who hold Sam up as a role model that they see this and then are told by the person who created this character that it is okay to be treated this way.

It seems to me that Ms. Tapping, Mr., Cooper and others who address the pete situation are basically denying that the second-half of this episode ever took place. I agree pete was a nice guy and fun in the first half of the episode - but he disappeared in the second-half (see above) and they seem unwilling or unable to address it. I think they did not expect the universal thrashing they have received from shippers, anti-shippers and plain fans and the more they talk about it and try to dig themselves out the worse they seem to make it, IMO. Example, the anti-S/J-shippers liked pete because they saw him as a means to an end for the S/J ship - then Ms. Tapping makes the comments about Sam harboring feelings for Jack, realizing she can't have him and moving on by "accepting" pete - anti-shippers go nuts and all of a sudden the pro-pete's are anti- pete's, albeit for different reasons than I have or the shippers have, but those comments turned a large part of the fandom that was for-pete against pete and further helped to turn some fans against Sam.

Some of my disappointment comes from what I see as one of the few strong female leads we have on TV these days being torn asunder by male writers and, in some ways, by the very actress that had put so much effort into making her character a strong, independent, professional woman in a world dominated by men. I fear that character is now lost for me as they do not seem to want to address the pete issue honestly and openly or the mistakes they made - they want to spin it their way and try to dismiss it hoping we, the fans, will go away - I'll likely go away but not in the manner they hope.

I am sorry, and maybe, as David suggests, I will try and catch New Order, but right now I can honestly say if something better comes along I likely won't be watching unless someone can give me some really solid hope that the pete behaviour will be addressed because right now from everything we are hearing it sounds like it won't be. If I knew there was hope that this situation would be addressed that would go a long way to my rethinking whether to abandon this show. I will still have to judge whether the "ship" thing would be a barrier to my watching but I think I would be more willing to watch some eps to make further judgement on that issue if the pete thing is addressed.

I will still lurk around here though, and if it seems that things are going better then I expect and pete's behaviour is addressed with either a thrashing from Sam or Sam kicking him out the door maybe I'll start watching again.

So long and sorry to be so very long-winded but I wanted you to understand where this is coming from. Hope it makes some sense. Have fun with S8.

Anthro Girl
June 28th, 2004, 11:41 PM
NOW I remember why I don't read 'ship threads! ;)

Spoiler space for Chimera:






The only thing that surprised me in Chimera was the reveal to Pete at the end. O'Neill didn't have a problem with it and obviously Hammond didn't either, so there it is. I understand the concept of a plot device in a serial television show and for me it was, "Okay...fine...move it along, kids..."

I didn't see anything wrong with the way Sam or Pete acted or reacted. Were they perfect to and for each other? No. Who is? Don't like Pete? Don't date him. As for the character of Sam being a role model for anyone or the Sam-Pete dynamic being held to a standard model of the perfect relationship (as if...), then one should learn early and often that we humans are flawed and relationships are messy. It's part of the package.

Personally, I can't wait for Season 8 and Atlantis. It looks like a whole lot of fun to me! That said, everybody is entitled to their opinion, so go forth.

BeerGirl
June 29th, 2004, 01:51 AM
Make that 2 disgusted fans, 2 of many from what I have been reading on many boards.
Why has StarGate become Carter's boring unrequited love story? ( because tptb mistakenly believe a majority want to see it? ) It's ruined what was a great Sci-fi show and turned it into a bad unbelievable soap opera

binkpmmc
June 29th, 2004, 03:46 AM
I just want to clarify that at this time I still do not consider myself an anti-shipper or a pro-shipper of any type of ship, not juts Jack/Sam. With the love life issue and the ship issue what I have a problem with is being a fan who was/is neither and I do not appreciate having that perception thrown at me at every turn by the actress and TPTB(or so it seems to me). I wanted to be able to continue to watch the show with my own perceptions of what the relationship(s) between all 4 team memebers were - now, though, I cannot do that the way I used to, that is one reason I am disgusted with it.

binkpmmc
June 29th, 2004, 04:14 AM
Sure people will agree with me and people will disagree with me about pete and his behaviour. Never said though that this relationship was held up "to a standard model of the perfect relationship" - goodness I have to admit, even though pete was a nice guy in the first half - I thought he was very immature even then and I could not see Sam with him anyway - there probably is no such thing in life as a "perfect relationship" and if there is I have yet to find it or see it so if someone out there has got it good for you.

This relationship, to me, was a very sad depiction because of the way Carter blindly accepted his disrepect and his dishonesty. You are willing to give the writers, producers, etc., a lot more credit than I am. I see this story as poorly written and executed - I do not think they set out to make pete a dishonest, immature jerk (IMO he was) I just think they don't get it, nor do I think they intended to show Carter as weak (IMO she was) and they just don't get that either which is sad for a character they have ben dealing with for over 7 years now. I think that perhaps they thought the way they wrote and executed this story was perfectly fine and they saw no "flaws" in either characters behaviour or reactions - which is one of the reasons it turned out as bad as it did, IMO. Now, with receiving what is close to a universal thrashing about pete and Carter's reactions/lack thereof, they are defensive and trying to dig out of it because so many people reacted negatively. As they try to dig out of it they make it worse with the statements and comments they are making to try and justify/dismiss the behaviour. The reactions coming from TPTB in response to the negative reactions to pete indicate to me that they wildly underestimated how bad the reaction to pete would be. IMO, they wanted to play their ususal games with the shippers and anti-shippers and get the shippers worried, and the anti-shippers happy, by introducing a rival to the Jack stuff, however, what they succeeding in doing was opening a can of worms that went way beyond that and now they are stuck with it.

The "relationship" in the second half of this episode goes way beyond a "flaw" for me. The actions of pete showed, IMO, a total lack of respect and trust towards Sam and that is the problem because she was such a strong, independent, intelligent character up until that point. The fact that Sam accepted it is her flaw which, up until this point was something I had not seen from the character, pure weakness. It was out of character for Sam and, BTW, I also thought it was out of character for Jack and the rest of the team not to have ripped his head off for showing up at the stakeout and I thought it was completely out of character for Jack and Hammond not to have officially reprimanded him but instead have agreed to tell him everything. All of this I see as out of character for all of them and the fact they told pete everything at the end, in realtion to other people who they had not told in the past, like Jacob (until he was on his deathbed), Stephen and Sarah, is, IMO, bad writing and execution with character behaviour, and plot, inconsistencies so big they wouldn't fit on the moon.

prion
June 29th, 2004, 08:47 AM
I don't think any fan group is being 'played.' The writers and producers are obligated to provide entertainment for the viewing audience, not segments of fans such as shippers, h/c, slash, daniel fans, jack fans, teal'c fans, etc. etc. Although there are some fans who feel they are betrayed by TPTB because they don't get what they want when the producer says something and a fan reads more into it than there is. That's also the trouble with putting all your money down on spoilers, no matter what the source.

The trouble with ship is that once you consummate the relationship (mUlder/Scully, Steele/Laura, etc. etc.) the show has nowhere to go because watching a couple be happy is, face it, boring. It's the UST and arguing and will they/won't they that have the audience coming back for more. If Jack and Sam got together, say, in the middle of season 8. Then what? You'd start losing audience who want to watch fireights, spaceships,e tc. (aka, the desired 18-to-25 male demographic). It would also be against Air Force regulations. I know, I know. some fans say they can do it, but no, sorry, the regulations say no.

As for Amanda Tapping changing her mind in statements, so what? Fans change their minds all the time! :D It's tiresome to see the actress (and character) be cruficied by fans for enjoying the Pete Shannon (or whatever his name is) thread. She's an actress, doing a job, and it's nice to have a change of pace. Plus it's nice not to see Sam putting her love life on hold because she knows she can't have Jack because Jack sure ain't gonna break regulations. She's moving on.

I didn't have much trouble with Pete as the whole episode was flawed, story-wise, but I keep seeing him kissing up to a dog. No, not Sam, that dog in the Beneful dog food ad. He did that long before SG1... :p I don't see Pete as a stalker. Yes, he misused his position to check up on Sam, but heck, I know lots of people who if given the chance, would check up on a prospective date. Too many people lie these days about who they are, especially on the internet ;) However, it will be interesting to see how they handle the Pete situation in season 8.

One of the biggest problems with the characters is the way the writers put the scripts together. Most fans, of all persuasions, will agree that "Chimera" should have been two separate episodes. The Sam/Pete story was rushed, the Sarah/Daniel story was left dangling - I mean, where is Sarah? back at work, in a nuthouse, writing horror novels? The writers are simply AWFUL at follow-up! Unless it invovles Jaffa or Goa'uld. For some reason, they can do okay with that, but forget about Daniel's ascended period (he got over the whole ascension/descension thing incredibly well), or great aliens (like hte Nox, but then they weren't created by the current writers, so I doubt we'll ever see them again except in fanfic).

What the writers need to do is step back, realize that Stargate is about scifi, action adventure and drama. Sure, toss a little romance in here and there, but don't make it a mainstay of the program. Make it a single episode, not a running thread.

By the way, I' not an anti-shipper. I think Jack and Sue definitely belong together. Oh, I 'm talking another show (so many male leads are called Jack, have you noticed??) but I just don't see the romance here.

Tok'Ra Hostess
June 29th, 2004, 09:29 AM
And, AT doesn't write for her character. If the script says the story goes like this when before it has still been ambiguous (and the writers/producers will already have discussed the pros and cons of developing an arc into a certain direction at this point), then AT can't change how she has interpreted the ambiguity up to this point. And she can't tell how her character's future will be because, as I've said, she doesn't write for her character. When AT comments on Carter's "relationship" to O'Neill (I really don't want to be in her position when all you seem to get asked is "When will you finally hop into bed with each other?"), she usually adds something like "but we can't because of our military ranks". So she tries to keep it open to the viewers instead of telling what's right and what's wrong. But she can't change series canon ("Grace").

With all that being said, I also didn't enjoy this article too much because it seems to force a certain perspective onto the reader. I am glad that TPTB know that not all fans like this or that, because, frankly, they don't have to listen to any fan and could just do what they want. I appreciate that they want to please as many fans as possible, since in the end I am also a big fan of the show.

I had only read up to this point when I made this post, so, please forgive any repetition.

Not to flame-broil any one person in particular, but I, personally, am irked by this "we fans are being played" business. :(

Interviews are always biased and generally lean toward relationship issues, whether they be pro or con. No "PTB" forces us fans to discuss at length any relationship issues. Negative crit, no matter how eloquently penned, tends to produce a negative response in the receiver - that's simple human nature, but to suggest that TPTB are playing fans against each other or pandering to one group to the detriment of another just gives me a baad feeling. Icky words like 'witch hunt' and 'McCarthyism' spring to mind.

:(

Stargate is a product, yes but of the imagination, an art form (YOMV ;) ); it is not some widget that its creator would gladly tweak to please his customers if, by so doing, he could make more money off his creation. If the PTB at Stargate had planned a romance sub-plot, arc, whatever, then they are somewhat emotionaly invested in that creation.

BW said he was surprised by the nearly even split in the fandom over what they had planned for the O'Neill/Carter romance sub-plot, and I tend to believe him on this; why wouldn't he be surprised? Romance is hugely popular in every genre, from music to comic books to novels to movies to live theater. It's not just a case of giving fans "what they want," but of producing the stories that the PTB want to tell.

Fans can hate the particular vision the PTB have for the characters or the series; I don't object to anyone having an opinion. But to say that the PTB "play the fans"? I not only don't buy that, but I'm insulted by what it insinuates about me and I quite frankly doubt that the PTB have either the time or the inclination to want to "play me".

Slainte
June 29th, 2004, 03:54 PM
Not to flame-broil any one person in particular, but I, personally, am irked by this "we fans are being played" business. :(
<snip>
Fans can hate the particular vision the PTB have for the characters or the series; I don't object to anyone having an opinion. But to say that the PTB "play the fans"? I not only don't buy that, but I'm insulted by what it insinuates about me and I quite frankly doubt that the PTB have either the time or the inclination to want to "play me".
Okay, since I was the one who threw the word "played" into the mix, I'll respond.

I'm sorry if you're insulted. I think TPTB have been inconsistent about what they project to the fans, re the "ship". Part maybe unintentional, but part, I believe, is to stir up controversy and keep fans interested. You believe differently, okay.

I am extremely tired of this little "tapdance". I would like to see more consistency, whether it be ship or not ship. I hate this ambiguity.

You are more innocent than I happen to be in believing TPTB have no inclination to "play" the audience. To me, that's what's show-biz is all about.

Anthro Girl
June 29th, 2004, 05:23 PM
I don't believe that TPTB are trying to - as someone put it - play any set of fans against another. IMO, that's just stupid. In the area of 'ship, they are damned-if-they-do-damned-if-they-don't, so it wouldn't make sense to try and start any kind of bickering between fan groups. From what I've seen, the fans are capable of that all on their own. :rolleyes:

I do, however, know enough about television to know that the whole point of a series is to "play" the audience just enough to keep them intrigued and coming back for more. In the latter sense, yes, I'm being played...gladly.

AbydosTraveller
June 29th, 2004, 10:08 PM
This article is consistant with TPTB inconsistancy over character development.

Consistancy is not a bad word.

Change is a constant, and so I'm okay with changes, even if it's not to my liking. I think the fanmail (etc.) should be disregarded, in all honesty. The characters change in their own environment, and shouldn't be paired depending on how the fans who watch their life want them to be paired.

As much as I don't like it, I think that in the end, TPTB should make the final decision. Change can happen again... and it may make some people happy, and some not, but it's part of real life. And on a television show, the characters are trying to have a life.

Slainte
June 30th, 2004, 06:07 AM
Change is a constant, and so I'm okay with changes, even if it's not to my liking. I think the fanmail (etc.) should be disregarded, in all honesty. The characters change in their own environment, and shouldn't be paired depending on how the fans who watch their life want them to be paired.

As much as I don't like it, I think that in the end, TPTB should make the final decision. Change can happen again... and it may make some people happy, and some not, but it's part of real life. And on a television show, the characters are trying to have a life.
I'm okay with change, too. What bugs me is that inconsistency we see on screen and off. For example, if TPTB do intend to move away from the Sam/Jack ship, cut out the subtle shippiness. The actors can portray people who maybe felt something more for each other at one time, but now are just loving friends and teammates. That's not happening in S7. They are still trying to keep all the options open.

I guess that's show business, but the waffling back and forth irritates me. That's my "issue".

Tok'Ra Hostess
June 30th, 2004, 08:39 AM
I do, however, know enough about television to know that the whole point of a series is to "play" the audience just enough to keep them intrigued and coming back for more. In the latter sense, yes, I'm being played...gladly.

<nods> Yup. But this is a completely different kind of 'play.' I, too, want to be played in this manner. It's called story telling, and even though some of their stories aren't always to my liking(most of the time they are), I don't believe for one moment that the PTB set out to divide, confuse or anger the fandom.

For instance, when the fans have lengthy, heated debates over whether or not that was Sam or Jolinar who called out to 'Jack' (ITLOD), or over Jack's decision to blow up the Gadmeer ship with Daniel on it, that's a great ploy by the PTB. They must love it when they can tell the stories that can generate such a wide response from their viewers. To qoute Slainte,
To me, that's what's show-biz is all about.

Slainte also said that:
You are more innocent than I happen to be in believing TPTB have no inclination to "play" the audience.

I'm neither innocent nor niave enough to allow another person's art to affect me negatively. Nor am I into conspiracy theory, which these specific accusations supported by, at best, nebulous assumption, appear to be, for I have yet to read a single actual statement from any of the Stargate PTB admitting that they think we fans are fair game for any other variety of 'game' beyond the game of entertaining us with good(YMMV) stories.

ShadowMaat
June 30th, 2004, 10:06 AM
Bink, as it happens, I agree with almost everything you said. Stargate used to be a great scifi show, now it’s a cheap soapy space opera with none of the depth to the stories and characters that used to keep me tuned in week after week.

If I cared about who was boffing whom or who wanted to boff whom, I’d watch Friends or something similarly brain dead. But when I watch Stargate, I expect to see good, high-quality scifi focusing on interesting storylines. For the past season and- from the sounds of the upcoming season- that isn’t what Stargate is about anymore.

It makes me sad. Despite what some people think, I really WANT to like Stargate, but I haven’t seen anything to well and truly like for a while. Sure, there’s the odd scene or two, but that’s a scene or two out of an ENTIRE SEASON, and that just isn’t good enough for me.

I’ve also been told that my standards are too high. Well, if they’re too high it’s because TPTB set that bar, themselves and now, IMO, they are failing to measure up.

I hate ship on Stargate. Sure, I like Pete and unlike a lot of people I think he’s a good character and a good match for Sam, but if you get right down to it, I’d rather not see ANY ship on Stargate because, as I already said- that isn’t why I watch.

Sure, people will tell you left and right that ship is good “character development” and it’s a “good way to look into the lives of the characters” but if those are the kinds of looks we’re going to get, I’d rather not look.

Believe it or not, it is entirely possible to have character development WITHOUT two characters hanging off of each other making moopy eyes. It is also possible to have this character development WITHOUT dragging the entire show/ep to a screeching halt just so they can throw a spotlight on it. Gah!

While I understand that interviews can be misleading, lately Sam and Jack seem to be all anyone can talk about. Not just in interviews, but in the commentary for the eps themselves. You can’t tell me THOSE are “deliberately misleading” or “catering to a certain viewpoint”, those are direct comments left in context from TPTB and the actors themselves. Personally, I thought this interview came off a lot better than the last one, which, IMO, made Sam sound like a cold-hearted sex-starved b*tch who was only using Pete as a sex object until she could get her claws into her TRUE love, Jack. Granted, the cutesy little hedging and the qualified statements aren’t a vast improvement, but at least it’s a little less cold-sounding and it sounds a little more like the AT I love so much. And I do love AT. I think she’s a phenomenal actress and a truly wonderful lady, but unless all the interviewers have suddenly mutated into shippers, then AT’s opinions on her character and her relationship to/with Jack HAVE changed over the years. She used to be quoted as saying “I don’t want to be Jack’s girl”, but now she’s saying things like, “…and probably, deep down, Sam [wants to be with Jack], too.” Yeah, people can change their mind, but the way I see it, “Jack’s girl” is exactly what Sam is becoming, with little else to the character and I personally think AT is right (or was right) for not wanting to see that happen to Sam.

Of COURSE it isn’t AT’s fault what her character does or doesn’t do/say. TPTB are still the ones in charge and I think we all know, by this point, that TPTB are pro-ship. It comes across in interviews, in commentaries, in messages posted on boards… there is no doubt in my mind that TPTB want S/J ship and that they will continue to bull ahead with it no matter what. All the cutesy little “maybe, maybe not” comments in the world aren’t going to change the facts. And since this seems to be an issue, I’m with Slainte: I feel as if, as a fan, I’m being played. First they say “no ship”. Then they say, “Maybe a little.” Then they say, “They have an unrequieted love.” Then they say (if you’ll allow me to paraphrase), “Pete is still around… but that doesn’t mean Jack is out of the picture yet.” So which is it? They’re playing fans, trying to keep both “sides” happy by making inconclusive, tantalizing statements that will keep both sides tuned in. I can understand why they do it. I mean, if they say “There will be absolutely no Sam/Jack ship ever again and Sam is going to marry Pete and be done with it” then lots of shippers would likely bail out of the show. Likewise saying, “Sam and Jack were made for each other and the finale will see them shacking up at Jack’s fishing camp and exchanging rings” lots of anti-ship fans would turn their backs on the show. But that doesn’t mean I have to like it and since I’m convinced that Sam and Jack will definitively be together at the end of the series, I don’t care for cagey statements intended to give me hope that it WON’T happen. If they’re serious about there being a chance that Sam and Jack WON’T wind up together, then by all means, play away! But if they are absolutely set and determined to have Sam and Jack as a couple, then don’t tell me it might not happen!

Change is good, but only if it’s for the better. IMO, Stargate is supposed to be an action show with brains, not a cheap, recycled excuse to delve into “relationships” and sex and moopy eyes. The characters should support the action, the “action” should not be written and contorted to allow for touchy-feely scenes. Emotional content should be a natural progression of a storyline, not tacked in and made up and made to be the entire focus of an ep.

Anyway, I’m sorry, but that just happens to be how I feel about it. :P And I already have a good idea what the rest of you think. ;)

Slainte
June 30th, 2004, 12:34 PM
<Much snippage>
All the cutesy little “maybe, maybe not” comments in the world aren’t going to change the facts. And since this seems to be an issue, I’m with Slainte: I feel as if, as a fan, I’m being played. First they say “no ship”. Then they say, “Maybe a little.” Then they say, “They have an unrequieted love.” Then they say (if you’ll allow me to paraphrase), “Pete is still around… but that doesn’t mean Jack is out of the picture yet.” So which is it? They’re playing fans, trying to keep both “sides” happy by making inconclusive, tantalizing statements that will keep both sides tuned in.
<More snippage>

Well put.
I still like the show, a lot, but all this makes it difficult to focus on all I do like when this issue just doesn't die.

shinyredpants
June 30th, 2004, 12:55 PM
personally i just got the pun the title of this topic is...call me slow...

no dont...

janet: i'm alive! and pregnant, and with hammond's BABY!!!!!

*ahem, steps on her soap box, coughs whatever lung crap that has come up into her throat due to her bronchitis and begins*

I think the soap opera aspect of this show comes and goes...if you notice you dont see that much "shipping" until season 4, and TPTB just let it loose. i dont know if you noticed but just about every episode in season 4 was touchy feely with well...everything. I liked a few choice episodes in season 4, but other than that, that season SUCKED...though i thought they made up for it completely in season 5. Then in season 6 they ignore it for the most part...move on, have a few laughs with Jonas...but all the sudden in season 7 you see it picking up again..

Personally i see this as a 4 season circle...every 4 seasons they try something and realize it'll never fly so they ignore the issue...its kinda like "dammit, choose something and quit screwing with us, this isnt a friggin soap opera...oh wait...maybe it is, in disguise!!! you all suck! now explode something!"

Personally i like seasons 3, 5, and 6 because of the lack in relationshipness...3 you were starting to see it, season 2 though was probably one of my favorite seasons. While i didnt care so much about the sha're stuff, it made sense...they tackled the issue when they needed to, and finally put it to rest. they seemed to have put daniel getting in "risque" situations somewhat to rest as well in season 5 *except choice moments with osiris, but that doesnt count*. Jonas flirted with the nurses, but what guy wouldnt. Jack...I dont think jack would notice people flirting with them if they took a bat and hit him upside the head...

Sam...i can see why she moved on from the jack thing. it just wouldnt work...he's her CO...unless she busted her self up to general, or he demoted himself to lt. colonel it just wouldnt work. technically jack shouldnt even be wearing his tibetan prayer beads while in uniform but i wont complain.

And honestly...i wont whine...i really wont, unless they make one of the characters pregnant. then i'll whine, i'll scream, i wont cry...but i will want to cry.

if they bring janet back from the dead SOMEHOW...whatever...

but i swear, if i see an episode where sam is wearing just a t-shirt, and its NOT hers...i'm going to throw something...and it'll be expensive.

*steps down her soap box...and passes it to the next person*

ShadowMaat
June 30th, 2004, 01:06 PM
If Sam winds up pregnant, I'll put my fist through my television set. I don't care if it's Jack's, Pete's, or Thor's, I don't wanna see it happen!! :P And no squirrelling around and have it be one of the males who gets pregnant. That's been done, too, and it only makes it that much more pathetic. IMO.

I won't gripe about why I feel that Sam and Jack- as characters- don't belong together, because I've already said my fill on the subject in both the Ship Discussion Thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=88) and the Anti-S/J Ship Thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=314).

I will, however, add that characters can gain plenty of emotional development without losing their spines in the process.

shinyredpants
June 30th, 2004, 01:31 PM
i just...just...dont want it to become like x-files *cry*

when scully was pregnant...i...bleh...lets not go there.

i wont go any further with jack/sam here either...i've said my part in the anti threads as well...

i need something to whine about then...

Yes...oh yes!! yes yes yes!!!!!! the episode that will be coming up in S8 where teal'c finally leaves the base...gateworld had a blurb about how teal'c will be getting involved with some sort of dealie thingy whatever...

leave the domestic violence for cops...i want to see teal'c go grocery shopping...

binkpmmc
July 1st, 2004, 04:39 PM
re: newest blurb at sci-fi wire by Ms. Tapping - oh well. Looks like I'll be withdrawing from the show after all. At least I can take some solace in the fact that Ms. T did not call pete an "honest" or "good" guy in this one. Maybe some sort of little point has been made by the mail they have received about it being "bad" behaviour . Regardless of whether people were shippers, anti-shippers or neither, it seems from reading many posts at several different forums, there are plenty of fans who felt pete's behaviour was disresepctful, immature, dishonest, etc., for no other reason than that they thought it was just plain bad.

Too bad for me, and I feel, too bad for the show, as this latest from Ms. T has not given me any hope that pete will be addressed honestly, IMO, so they will, in fact, lose a loyal fan. I am fully aware that my absence won't affect the ratings as one viewer leaving is sort of like spitting in the wind while riding a bicycle, but - too many things I used to watch the show for are gone/minimal, IMO, such as off-world adventures, new alien cultures both friend and enemy, the "team" together, Janet, Hammond. Now, carrying on from S7 and after seeing spoilers, etc., for first 11 eps of S8, I see too many (IMO) earth/SGC based stories, few new alien cultures, few new friends or enemies, less of the "team", more of one of the "team" with guest star of the week, no Janet, very little Hammond and finally I see love lives/girlfriends/boyfriends/romance of the week. Couple all of this with the pete behaviour thing and there really is not much purpose in my watching.

I know, I know, change is good and shows growth but to be honest change is good in the eyes of the beholder just like we all view the show differently and we all perceive the show differently (my not being a shipper or an anti-shipper is the best example I can think of, I just never perceived any of that - and I have discussed this aspect in previous posts re: how I feel that perception is now being thrust upon me by statements actors, actresses and TPTB are making over and over again recently, which make some of the shippy moments, that I never perceived in the first place, fact). You may think me small-minded, shallow or just plain silly but this is it for me - I do not want to waste my time watching a show I don't really enjoy or really respect anymore for some of the things they (yes including TPTB, etc.) have done/said and some of the choices they have made. Again, too bad for me, I'll miss the escape I got while watching a show I really enjoyed and respected but, in many ways I already missed that show since the second half of S7.

Again, I'm not sure why I'm posting this - just to vent, as many do here (since I have felt comfortable here at GW I thought it would be okay to put it here just to make myself feel better), and to express that I am really disappointed and, since Ms. T has acknowledged she does visit here sometimes and Mr. Mallozi does in fact post here, and maybe other of TPTB visit too, maybe one of them will see this and they will be aware that not all fans who feel disappointed in how things are going or in the direction of the show, will be as patient and understanding as others or as willing and patient to give TPTB and the show the continued benefit of the doubt. Hopefully, they will get that they have, regretablly, lost what was once a loyal fan. I hope you all enjoy S8 - have fun.

ShadowMaat
July 1st, 2004, 04:56 PM
As I am fond of saying, bink, change is good, but only if it's for the better. Granted, "better" is in the eye of the beholder, but I'm with you: the changes in Stargate this past season (and the implications for S8) are all for the worse. I don't have the problems with Pete that you and a lot of others do, but I wholeheartedly agree that romance should NEVER be the focus of an ep.

The more I hear about S8, the more I think I made the right move to give up during S7. ;)

I think another part of it isn't just the changes, but the number of changes that are being made. We're losing characters left and right, the entire focus of the show is changing, the characters are coming to the fore as individuals rather than as a team, there are promotions, there are emotions, and there are beloved traits which will be lost forever.

I hope you won't drop out of fandom completely, bink. Just because you no longer enjoy what Stargate is doesn't mean you don't enjoy what Stargate was, right? There are still plenty of sections and threads to hang in even if you don't watch the show anymore. Take it from one who knows. ;) You word yourself well and I like what you have to say, even if I don't always agree 100%. It'd be a shame to lose a good voice. :)

Slainte
July 1st, 2004, 05:42 PM
The more I hear about S8, the more I think I made the right move to give up during S7. ;)
I'm not giving up, even if I am irritated at the inconsistencies. I'm always Ms. Glass Half Full, but I do see some new energy in the changes. I'll just look away or look through my fingers at the parts I don't like. ;) Seriously, with Stargate SG-1, NCIS and (occasionally) Monk the only television I look forward to watching, I can't afford not to hope for S8 and Atlantis.

YMMV, of course.

shinyredpants
July 1st, 2004, 05:50 PM
i cant wait for the new season of sg-1 and atlantis...

but of course, i do dabble in reality shows...

if only there was a reality show that involved nerds...oh wait...i think there is...

is there?!?!?

ShadowMaat
July 1st, 2004, 05:55 PM
if only there was a reality show that involved nerds...oh wait...i think there is...
Yeah, it's called Mad Mad House. :P Although "sick freaks" would probably be more accurate a description...

keshou
July 1st, 2004, 06:09 PM
Too bad for me, and I feel, too bad for the show, as this latest from Ms. T has not given me any hope that pete will be addressed honestly, IMO, so they will, in fact, lose a loyal fan. I am fully aware that my absence won't affect the ratings as one viewer leaving is sort of like spitting in the wind while riding a bicycle, but - too many things I used to watch the show for are gone/minimal, IMO, such as off-world adventures, new alien cultures both friend and enemy, the "team" together, Janet, Hammond. Now, carrying on from S7 and after seeing spoilers, etc., for first 11 eps of S8, I see too many (IMO) earth/SGC based stories, few new alien cultures, few new friends or enemies, less of the "team", more of one of the "team" with guest star of the week, no Janet, very little Hammond and finally I see love lives/girlfriends/boyfriends/romance of the week. Couple all of this with the pete behaviour thing and there really is not much purpose in my watching.


Honestly, I can't tell you that all will be well. :o It could be that they may address the problems some of the fans had with Pete's behavior, but I wouldn't count on it. I thought the Pete storyline had some sloppy writing but it didn't bother me that much -- I'm more concerned with the other issues you mention. HOWEVER, I still think there's a chance that certain episodes and story arcs will entertain me --maybe not as many as in the glory days but there are so few shows I enjoy anymore I hate to give up on Stargate. And frankly the fandom kind of keeps you sucked in.

I thought David had pretty good advice. Watch the first couple of episodes, if you still feel the same way or don't see any light at the end of the tunnel, stop watching and find another show to love. I was actually encouraged by AT's latest blurb on scifi wire and some of the more recent spoilers so I'm feeling more hopeful about things.

And Shadow's right, you can always stick around for fan interaction on the forum. There will be a lot of discussion about Atlantis as well as SG-1 as both shows start airing. And who knows? Pete may not be around all that long in season 8, so if he's the main source of your discomfort you might hang around, see how the new episodes are being received and decide to start watching again. :)

binkpmmc
July 1st, 2004, 06:35 PM
Thank you very much, Shadow. I appreciate your kind words. It is likely that I will continue to lurk around the boards especially Gateworld as I do enjoy it and Darren and David put a lot of effort into making it a very enjoyable, informative site.

I will look for posts on the new season to see if there is any mention of the show addressing pete's behaviour in the way I think it needs/deserves to be addressed and if I see that happen than maybe I will return to watching at some point - maybe in re-runs or syndie when it gets there - but right now, coupled with all of the other changes that have, IMO, taken away the best of why I used to enjoy and respect the show, I just can't see myself watching.

I enjoy the discussions we can have on this site and maybe I'll continue to post in threads that I can stay knowledgable about without actually watching the episodes otherwise I look forward to keeping track of you and others and maybe dropping by to say hi once in awhile.

Have fun.

binkpmmc
July 1st, 2004, 07:51 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful response Kes.

Yes, I am uncomfortable with pete but it is not because pete is around, it is what he represents with his behaviour and Sam's acceptance of it. Even if pete were to go away half way into S8, or before, and coupled with all of the other things I feel the show has lost since the second-half of S7, I would still not watch unless the story included Sam kicking his A$$, as it is about more than pete being around for me. It is about his behaviour in the second-half as a whole. IMO this has diminished one of my favorite characters (the strong, intelligent, independent, professional woman with self-respect) by accepting disrespectful, dishonest, immature behaviour without any acknowledgement indicating that it is okay for a woman to be treated in this fashion.
It is not even about pete going away - if Sam kicked his A$$ and he stayed around after that it would still go a long way to keeping me around as a viewer because she would have addressed his disrespect, dishonesty and mistrust towards her.

Some people tend to focus on only pieces of his behaviour to justify/dismiss it, however, there was a lot more to it than that. For me the disappointment and discontent stems from what pete represented as a whole in the second-half of the episode. In a span of maybe 2-3 days, if that, what we saw from a man who supposedly loves this woman was: (1) the man walk out on the woman he supposedly loves the morning after they first slept together for no other reason than he did not get his way; (2) he walked out in a little hissy fit as he was still putting on his shoes and his shirt was not tucked in or buttoned as he walked to his truck after he left her; (3) he called his FBI friend to do the background check while still sitting in front of her house after he left her; (4) after he walked out on her he did not attempt once to call her or contact her to discuss it as adults; (5) after he crapped out with his FBI friend and was basically told again to leave it alone, he chose not to leave it alone, instead; (6) he sat near her house waiting and then secretly followed her; (7) he sat all night watching her van at a stakeout with night vision binoculars; and (8) he approached her at the stakeout (without his gun drawn indicating he did not think she was in danger) and calmly called her name while she was exiting the van to go and assist Jack, Daniel and Teal'c.

Taken as a whole I find this behaviour disrepectful, dishonest, immature and completely unacceptable and inexcusable. To be perfectly honest, if all he had done was call his FBI friend to get the background check, crapped out on that and then left it alone I probably would not be as ticked off - but that was only one small piece of the whole pete package in the second-half. Going back to all of the invocations Ms. T made about playing Carter in reality in Season 7 based on what "real" women go through in questioning their life decisions at certain time of their lives, I say where exactly is the reality of a woman in the 21st century accepting this behaviour as a whole? Again, this is my opinion.

I have been disgusted with Ms. T, Mr. C and other PTB trying to justify/dismiss pete's behaviour by picking and choosing certain aspects of the behaviour to focus on such as "Sam didn't know about the background check" or it is human nature to be "inquisitive" so it's okay that he followed her and ran the FBI check. Please, please look at the whole.

Anyway, sorry to go on again but I just get more bugged. Have fun with S8.

Ali888
July 2nd, 2004, 09:51 AM
Thanks for your thoughtful response Kes.

Yes, I am uncomfortable with pete but it is not because pete is around, it is what he represents with his behaviour and Sam's acceptance of it. Even if pete were to go away half way into S8, or before, and coupled with all of the other things I feel the show has lost since the second-half of S7, I would still not watch unless the story included Sam kicking his A$$, as it is about more than pete being around for me. It is about his behaviour in the second-half as a whole. IMO this has diminished one of my favorite characters (the strong, intelligent, independent, professional woman with self-respect) by accepting disrespectful, dishonest, immature behaviour without any acknowledgement indicating that it is okay for a woman to be treated in this fashion.


Going back to all of the invocations Ms. T made about playing Carter in reality in Season 7 based on what "real" women go through in questioning their life decisions at certain time of their lives, I say where exactly is the reality of a woman in the 21st century accepting this behaviour as a whole? Again, this is my opinion.

I have been disgusted with Ms. T, Mr. C and other PTB trying to justify/dismiss pete's behaviour by picking and choosing certain aspects of the behaviour to focus on such as "Sam didn't know about the background check" or it is human nature to be "inquisitive" so it's okay that he followed her and ran the FBI check. Please, please look at the whole.

Anyway, sorry to go on again but I just get more bugged. Have fun with S8.

Well, I don't see Pete's behaviour the same way as you do, but I certainly understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately, Sam has regularly accepted bad behaviour from men. She was engaged to a nutcase, her father tried to run her life for her and her CO (for whom she is supposed to have 'feelings') has frequently ignored or belittled her.

I see Sam as being a strong scientist and soldier but fairly weak when it comes to her private life. I don't want to see romance on the show at all but if they insist on hooking Sam up with someone, please let it be someone who respects her, listens to her, doesn't try to run her life or order her around and someone with whom she has things in common, someone she feels she can talk to about anything.

Ali P

binkpmmc
July 6th, 2004, 06:36 AM
Hi Shadow - I did not watch the LowDown, and it seems from what I have been reading on various forums that I made the right choice for all of the reasons stated in my earlier posts. If there is, however, something in there that would give me hope let me know and perhaps I'll try and catch the re-run Friday, if not too bad. Thanks.

ShadowMaat
July 6th, 2004, 07:04 AM
Well, if you can ignore the vomitous scenes of Sam alternately kissing/making out with Jack and then Pete and then I think back to Jack, if you can ignore all the unsubtle hints about shippiness with both of them, if you can pretend that Teal'c having hair is an integral part of the upcoming season and fool yourself into believing that all this shallow stuff about the characters lives (minus Daniel- who's he?) is far more important than anything as stupid as plotting... then you may enjoy the lowdown. ;) Otherwise, I say skip it.

The stuff with Atlantis was kinda fun. I think that's mostly in the latter half. Hewlett/McKay is absolutely brilliant, IMHO and it's almost worth stomaching all that other stuff just to listen to him ramble on about his Malibu beach house and Ancient coffee warmers and things like that. ;) SG-1 may be past its prime, but Atlantis has real potential as long as McKay is around (my opinion, of course). I just hope they let him do things RIGHT once in a while instead of making him the perpetual screwup.

I still think the Wraith are laughable, but you don't notice the badness of the uniforms as much.

binkpmmc
July 6th, 2004, 09:01 AM
Thanks - looks like I'm out for all of the reasons stated in my previous posts here and the Lowdown has not shed any new or different light on the direction of the show.

The new Sci-Fi blurb from Peter DeLuise certainly doesn't say much for the upcoming season either, IMO. Love lives, romance of the week, and he says something about the tone of the new season which he describes as "much more cerebral"?? huh - what is that about? Does cerebral mean bad soap-opera-wanna-be writing? Sorry getting more and more cynical as I hear more and more about this new show "As The Stargate Turns". Too bad it seems that the show, IMO, has become a caricature of itself in some ways.

ShadowMaat
July 6th, 2004, 09:13 AM
Well, I haven't quite reached the point of being embarrassed for the actors and pitying the fact that they're still stuck on the show, but then, that's partly why I don't watch anymore. So I won't reach that point. ;)

I still haven't decided if I'll watch the premiere. If I can remember, I may tune in just to see how it looks. I can always turn it off if it gets too horrible. :)

David
July 6th, 2004, 09:20 AM
That's exactly right. And I hope you plan on jumping aboard for Atlantis.

ShadowMaat
July 6th, 2004, 11:04 AM
McKay is the hotness. No way I'm missing out on the hotness. ;)