Real Zero Point Energy

[Falconoffury]

I have been reading an interesting discussion about the hypotheses of real zero point energy on the forum of another website. If you want to see the discussion, here you go.

http://peakoil.com/fortopic9186.html

Many scientists agree that zero point energy is a force all around us, but there is much disagreement on how to harness that energy, or if it is even possible to harness it. The basic hypothesis is that energy can come from empty space, at the point of no energy (explaining the name "zero point").

It's a controversial subject, and there is much resistance to it, and very little funding for it, but there is some evidence that some scientists who discovered how to harness zero point energy have been silenced or even murdered. Some hypothesize that zero point devices were invented sometime around or before the Egyptian empire, and it was used in building the pyramids by utilizing something called Casimir force, which is like anti gravity. Some also hypothesize that recovered UFO crashes contain zero point energy systems and fly using anti gravity.

If a ZPM uses zero point energy, then it technically wouldn't ever truly run out of energy. The battery may run dry, but it would be able to recharge itself by extracting energy from space. I just thought that was something never mentioned when discussing ZPMs in the show.

[LiquidBlue]

Any real expert is welcome to give a better exmplanation.

The "zero point" in zero point energy is absolute zero. That is, the term arrises from quantum theory. Any particle within a potential well, and eventually all particles are found to be in some well, will have a determined minimum energy. Even when all other energy is removed there is some ground state below which there are no other energy states. Thus at the "zero point", absolute zero, when classical theory would predict that the particle would have no energy, the particle is found in the ground state with positive energy.

Harnessing this energy to do work is problematic. According to thermodynamics, the amount of useful work that can be performed is a function of the available energy and the difference in temperature between the source and the sink. This is where zero point energy runs into trouble. In order to harness it, we would have to take the particles from the state in which they are in to a lower energy state, but the the state in which they are in, the ground state, is by definition the lowest energy state.

[_Owen_]

Yes, the concept of Zero Point Energy is an interesting one. In fact the "Zero" was rounded to make calculations easier. I can't remember where I read this but I am almost certain it is true. But yes, it is a very cool subject.

Owen Macri

[Loaf]

It sounds very complicated

i read that they'd been able to make small amounts by collapseing water bubbles in a vacume chamber

[Qasim]

Rodney said that the energy is harnessed from subspace

Also see these articles:

http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetin...icReactorx.htm [bit of a spoof]
http://kjmaclean.com/ZeroPointEnergy.html [quite long]

[Loaf]

i'm just saying i read it it was a while ago maybey they were observing some other effect

That means ZPM's are just tiny little vacumes or more than that

[cozzerob]

It's all very interesting - only time will tell if it actually works. Besides, our current understaning of the universe is probably so flawed that in 100 yrs time our views on science will look quaint...

But one point I must mention - if we are rapidly advancing to ancient-like tech, we must not become as arrogant as them! Its no wonder the asgard haven't tried to ascend...would you want to be stuck with these ppl for all eternity, telling you how advanced their tech was, and how you musn't intervene in mortal matters, etc... not how I'd want to spend my eternity...

[Loaf]

If we last 100 years

[lethalfang]

Zero point energy is a term invented to describe the ground state energy level.
According to many equations calculating energies of any system or particles, the lowest energy level (aka the ground state) has a non-zero value. In order to simply numerous calculations of interest, this ground energy level is set to zero, and whatever energy that is above ground state is the maximum amount of work (100% efficiency) one can theoratically extract from the system.
Using zero point energy to work violates the laws of thermodynamics. In order to extract zero point energy to do work, this system that was previously at its ground state has to go to a lower energy state. However, by the definition of "zero point energy," the system does not have a lower energy state. Therefore, zero point energy cannot be used to do work.
However, ZPM is still an entertaining sci-fi plot.

Regarding comments about people who have harnessed "zero point energy" being murdered for working on zero point energy, it's non-sense conspiracy. There's no funding in its research because it goes against everything we know about physics: the conservation of mass-energy.

Casimir force is only demonstrated recently, and hypothesized not too long ago. I'm not too familiar with it, but it think it used the same line of thoughts that gave rise to Hawking's Radiation. You guys can educate me on that part. Casimir force does not violate the laws of thermodynamics.

[_Owen_]

Yes, ok, that is what is exactly what I was trying to say, except for the fact that it was like four o'clock in the morning here and I couldn't think.

Right now, we view science of the Dark Ages, as "magic" and "heresy" not really science at all, however, in the Dark Ages, it was considered modern. In a thousand years, we will likley look back at this time as "ancient." Think about it, what really happend in the year 1000, not a lot, we view those times as ancient, so as technology and knowledge progresses, so will our views on what is ancient.

Owen Macri

[lethalfang]

People 1000 years ago generally did not try to figure out the universe with experimentation or theoratical calculation.
Science as we know it began with Galileo, who started to study the universe in scientific and independent terms.
Over the past few hundreds of years, we have learned much.
We have still only scratched a surface regarding the laws of nature.
However, not everything we have discovered are bound to be wrong.
The laws of thermodynamics is the most fundamental laws of nature, based on sound logic and countless experimentations.
Theormodynamics is independent of the nature of the matters in question. It was developed before quantum mechanics, even before the the existence of atoms was accepted. It still worked after people got rid of the concept of heat as a physical substance.
"Thermodynamics is the only physical theory of universal content which, within the framework of the applicability of its basic concepts, I am convinced will never be overthrown." — Albert Einstein
The only way to use zero point energy to do work is to find an even lower energy state, but then, it wouldn't really be "zero point energy."

[_Owen_]

You see, we assume that what we are doing now, will be recognized in the future as reasonable advanced, however that is far from the case. People one thousand years ago likley thought what they were donig was what we would consider, advanced, science or not. We have no idea, we could not possible ponder what is to come, so we could not possibly assume that what we have done in this day and age will be recognized as science one thousand years from now.

Owen Macri

[lethalfang]

You see, we assume that what we are doing now, will be recognized in the future as reasonable advanced, however that is far from the case. People one thousand years ago likley thought what they were donig was what we would consider, advanced, science or not. We have no idea, we could not possible ponder what is to come, so we could not possibly assume that what we have done in this day and age will be recognized as science one thousand years from now.

Owen Macri

Sorry, but except for the laws of thermodynamics.
If zero point energy can be used to do work, then you have perpetual motor. You have a system at zero point energy, and after it does work, it is at zero point energy because it has no lower energy to go to, and therefore it will run on forever. The fact that "ZPM" can run out of power in Stargate, is a contradiction in itself.
If there is infinite amount of energy stored in any system, this universe would not work the way it does.

[_Owen_]

Well you see in Stargate they changed it up a bit. Instead they are saying that there is all this energy in subspace, zero point energy, so all you need to do it lock onto, or create a self contained region, and "milk," if you will, the energy from it.

Owen Macri

[lethalfang]

Well you see in Stargate they changed it up a bit. Instead they are saying that there is all this energy in subspace, zero point energy, so all you need to do it lock onto, or create a self contained region, and "milk," if you will, the energy from it.

Owen Macri

In order to reconcile with stargate world, I offer this explanation.
Really, it's very hard to imagine an entire region of space to be at absolutely zero point energy. Thus, they found regions of higher energy states within their ZPM. They lock onto these regions and bring them together, and now they extract energy from it, until the locked up regions reaches zero point energy, at which point the ZPM has to be discarded.