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GateWorld
July 26th, 2005, 05:24 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/206.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/206.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/206.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none"><B>TRINITY</B></A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 206</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
McKay puts the team at risk when he tries to perfect unfinished Ancient technology that wiped out a civilization. Ronon Dex discovers that he is not the lone survivor from his world.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2/206.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

briguy213
August 19th, 2005, 05:53 PM
That was a good ep. I want to see them tear a hole in our universe. That would be fun. :)

illuminarok
August 19th, 2005, 06:01 PM
What the hell happened to the end credits and the preview for next week's episode?

Mio
August 19th, 2005, 06:02 PM
I was looking forward to this episode, and as it turns out, I was correct in doing so. This was a great episode.

Best quote:

Weir: You destroyed three quarters of a solar system!
McKay: Look. Five sixths...but its not an exact science.
Weir: Rodney! Can you Give your ego a rest for one second?!

In fact, the entire scene with Weir yelling at McKay in the background was hillarious.

A pity we never got the power source to work right.

Oh, and I have to mention that I am continually impressed with the quality of the Visual Effects and props/scenery. I always love the cool little computer interfaces. And the Big Bad Zero Point generator looked neat as well.

AGateFan
August 19th, 2005, 06:03 PM
What the hell happened to the end credits and the preview for next week's episode?

An attempt to save the sinking BSG (ok, ok, I admit Im not a fan) but I want to see the SG-A preveiws dangit!!

EDIT: Got my preview, now Im happy. For the record I didnt like it when they did that last year from SG-1 to SG-A either, just throws you off.

EyeStrain
August 19th, 2005, 06:04 PM
ZPM's still the perfered power source :p

vonbismarck
August 19th, 2005, 06:05 PM
Do wraith ships have shields? I am sure this has been asked/explained before but I am going to ask again because
the weapon in trinity took a whole bunch out and I believe was said to be as powerful or more so than the sat. weapon, yet the dadealus (sp) took a couple hits from it and their shields held up.

GatetheWay
August 19th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Oh boy. Rodney REALLY messed up this time.... badly.

Mio
August 19th, 2005, 06:07 PM
ZPM's still the perfered power source :p

And 4 shall remain in my posts for as long as they remain so.

I have to admit, I was beginning to worry that they'd make it work and that I'd have to make a new sig....

smushybird
August 19th, 2005, 06:09 PM
The best episode of the new season. By far.

Who wrote the ep?
That writer deserves oodles of cyberhugs. ::huuuuuuugs::

sgatelvr
August 19th, 2005, 06:10 PM
Oh, McKay. Poor, poor baby. He wanted so badly to be right, and if he had been, he would forever be a hero. Lesson learned: never second guess the Ancients.

And how about Ronin? Definitely NOT a team player!! Where I can understand his rage, I think his actions were a bit extreme. I think he just lost a lot of respect in Teyla's eyes, regardless of what she said. Obviously, he needs to spend some more time in military training. He's been alone far too long. I'm a bit disappointed in him.



Wier. She tries so hard, and gets undermined at every turn. She really needs to learn to stick to her guns: when she says no, she HAS GOT to stick with it! They sure are lucky they only lost one of their team.



Anyway, this was a great ep. Probably my favorite of the season. McKay deserved to be reprimanded, but I can't help feeling sorry for him. He will, no doubt, be back to usual form in the next ep, but I enjoyed him acting contrite tonight. Shows he really does have a conscience. ;)

Excali5033
August 19th, 2005, 06:15 PM
Well now Sam can't hold that whole supernova thing over Rodney's head anymore.

Mio
August 19th, 2005, 06:18 PM
Well now Sam can't hold that whole supernova thing over Rodney's head anymore.

Indeed. Ripping a hole in the fabric of spacetime and causing an explosion that pretty much destroys an entire solar system would seem to outdo a simple supernova.

prion
August 19th, 2005, 06:22 PM
Here's the address to complain to Scifi about hacking off the end credits:

feedback@scifi.com

Meanwhile, it was a FANTASTIC episode!!! Loved it.

EyeStrain
August 19th, 2005, 06:29 PM
Asgard shield on the Daedalus are pretty good in both Trinity and Beachhead.


Torrell(CONDEMNED) would have made a difference if he were around to encourage Mckay :D

Merlin7
August 19th, 2005, 06:32 PM
I loved this ep. I loved the McShep friendship. I adored the Rodney/Shep/Zelenka scene. Smart Shep. Hee. I adore Zelenka in this. I love that he was RIGHT! And that Rodney was wrong. I love that because just like with Shep...I like my characters flawed. That's why I adore Shep. He screws up and is wrong and keeps trying. I've been wanting that with Rodney. THANK YOU PTB. Took you long enough.

I also like that Rodney's biggest regret <not blowing off Collins but he's in line with Gaul and Peter and so on> In that Rodney and Shep feel guilty about the people they've lost. That's a given> In this ep the biggest regret for rodney was that he might have lost Shep's trust. And I love that shep didn't just forgive him. He shouldn't. What Rodney did falls onto Shep as well. Shep trusted Rodney enough to convince Weir to let them do this and Rodney let his ego get in the way. And...well..you know what I mean. Trickle down/up effect.

I loved Weir reeming Rodney. I actually like how Rodney kinda just blows it off with, yeah yeah. I apologized. But his sincerity with Shep was wonderful and Shep's reaction's were fabulous. They were both very HONEST and I love that.

I loved John's anger at Rodney and his little story about the plane and trying to pull Rodney now and it was just so Them. Joe does that anger thing so well.

I liked the Mom/Weir and Dad/Caldwell scene. Shep looked like the teenager who was caught between them. LOL

I liked the Ronon and teyla stuff. I like how she acted with him. How she got angry yet how she understood. Yet she made it clear that she would not excuse what he did nor would she accept his behavior in the future. Yay..>Ronon makes mistakes too.

And, obviously, this was the HUMAN ERROR ep they didn't do last year. I'm glad. Better now after all McShep have been through. After what they've all been through.

My only complaint is the Daedalus coming to the rescue. I did'nt like it rescuing Shep in SIEGE and I diddn't like it rescuing McShep. Yeah...they have to use the ship somehow, but it's lame on the part of the writers. I could have given them several different ways to save McShep.

Oh...I also loved how Mcshep worked together. Shep a smart boy. They're a great team. And I think this will bond them. Of course enough time will have passed between this and INSTINCT for the trust to be back. But that's okay. It will make CONvERSION more meaningful too.

LOVE THis EP for it's intensity too. Edge of my seat viewing again. I'd say my fave of the season too.

Well..until COnvERSION! LOL

cybergaki
August 19th, 2005, 06:35 PM
And how about Ronin? Definitely NOT a team player!! Where I can understand his rage, I think his actions were a bit extreme. I think he just lost a lot of respect in Teyla's eyes, regardless of what she said. Obviously, he needs to spend some more time in military training. He's been alone far too long. I'm a bit disappointed in him.


Ronon needs some serious socialization. Counselling wouldn't be a bad idea. And now he has gone and ticked off Teyla, the one person he had the most in common with. He looked like a wounded puppy as they re-entered Atlantis and he shared that look with Teyla. I loved the juxtaposition of the two of them and then in the background Weir and Rodney. Two bad boys, eh?

Excali5033
August 19th, 2005, 06:48 PM
Oh, almost forgot. The town in the Teyla/Ronin B-story was the same set from the Ori town in Avalon, but I guess that was pretty obvious.

Mr. Seven
August 19th, 2005, 06:59 PM
All and all not a bad episode. It was very McKay centric and dealt with him and Shepperd more than usual.

This McKay reminds me more of his first appearance in SG-1. He's just such an ego maniac in this episode.

The beats with Ronon and Teyla were interesting, especially the one guy suspecting they were a couple. What they are going to keep a secret between them though is going to cost them something down the line..

Redwall
August 19th, 2005, 07:00 PM
An attempt to save the sinking BSG (ok, ok, I admit Im not a fan) but I want to see the SG-A preveiws dangit!!

Hahaha NO. I would hazard a guess that this BSG episode ran long and so they cut SGA's credits to accomodate. The BSG podcast constantly mentions deleted scenes and such... presumably they just managed to get an extra few seconds in on this one.

ShadowMaat
August 19th, 2005, 07:01 PM
An interesting ep. We gain a LOT of insight into McKay's character, and it's a little cringe-worthy in its honesty. It will be interesting to see how- or even IF- this plays out in future episodes.

We got to see another side of Ronon, too, and while I suppose it fits with what little we know about him, I'm not sure it was necessary. He's falling into patterns of cliche again, and I'd really rather see him avoid the predictible trappings of his character type.

I had been led to believe this was some kind of pivotal ep, some major darkening of McKay's character and all that. But other than his suicidal/genocidal blindness to the consequences of his actions, I don't know what we've really learned. Yes, I can see how Collins's death prompted him to want to find out what happened so it didn't happen again, but that was quickly overshadowed by his own need to... I dunno, succeed. Prove himself. Whatever.

Hewlett once again showed off his brilliance in acting, particularly in the last scene with Shep. All the words in the world can't say as much as his expression did. Let's hope this DOES haunt him. And that we continue to see the fallout.

But again, what have we really learned? The Ancients were working on a new technology. The outpost failed and wiped out a planet in the process. Now McKay's finished the job by taking out half the solar system. But all that means is that the Ancients weren't masters of everything and that there are some things best left untouched.

And as for Ronon... That whole storyline seemed like a waste. All we get is his impatience, tendency to rash action, supreme self-confidence and the fact that he wasn't the only survivor. And Teyla being righteously pissy with him, but still maintaining an Us vs. Them "alien conspiracy". ;) Can't say I think much of that. There's bonding and then there's, "oh, brother." :rolleyes:

Dex IS helping to flesh out Teyla a bit, but while I still think the two have good chemistry, I'm not sure I liked what this ep had to say about either of them. With McKay, it was an insight I didn't particularly like, but which read as true. With Dex and Teyla, I didn't like it because it seemed trite and meaningless.

Still, there was good McKay stuff. I just wish there'd been a bit more meat on the bones.

MarshAngel
August 19th, 2005, 07:02 PM
Very well done. I can see them slowly taking Mckay down by notches. Last week perfect strangers deconstructed him and this week his ego takes a beating but only after it had risen to gargantuan proportions.
I have to say I wanted to kick McKay several times. The way he abuses poor Zelenka. I give the man props for continuing to work with him and being gracious about it.
I also love what they did with Teyla and Ronon. I Love how Ronon just shot the guy with no preamble. I never did get all the speeches people tend to make before they kill you. It was nice to see them close ranks over a secret. It provides basis for future drama and dama is good.

I still can't get over McKay's ego. Just how does one man get so confident and presumptuous? He hasn't saved the world the number of times Carter has and yet he has the ego of a man who's saved several galaxies. Amazing really.

jyh
August 19th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Is it just me, or did McKay seem obsessed in this ep? His anxiety to work on the new power source, regardless of possible consequences, really bordered on fanaticism. I almost thought that at the end of the episode it would be discovered that the device caused an obsessive/compulsive disorder in Canadian scientists.

Also, can't believe they skipped the ending credits and previews for next week. Very low rent, SciFi. :(

Excali5033
August 19th, 2005, 07:13 PM
Hahaha NO. I would hazard a guess that this BSG episode ran long and so they cut SGA's credits to accomodate. The BSG podcast constantly mentions deleted scenes and such... presumably they just managed to get an extra few seconds in on this one.

Yeah, last I knew it's the ratings king for Friday.

ShadowMaat
August 19th, 2005, 07:19 PM
Atlantis was wasting time with those ridiculous shots of the village. No way did they go over, they were scrambling to fill the time.

Traveler Enroute1
August 19th, 2005, 07:19 PM
This episode worked on many levels. Loved the jabbering with Rodney and Sheppard, even when it was not funny it was well written. Rodney's "Gemini." Even geniuses make mistakes, ask Sam Carter! ;) The angst to get a power source makes for nice drama, and it played well here. Caldwell's military bent, Weir's Atlantis priorities, Rodney's ego and Shep's security mindset - all angles pulled this portion of the ep into a worthy show.

The Teyla and Ronon portion was even more appealing. Lots of drama with Ronon and his past. From elation that there were other survivors from his culled home, to seething that his former teacher, a traitor, was among them. It was a tad predictable, but the execution of the traitor was still a powerful moment. It also encompassed the betrayal of Teyla's trust, something Ronon will have to decide was worth it. They do make a nice looking duo, esp if they get into a fight. Teyla tried to give him the benefit of her doubts when he practically challenged the trader, then he goes and tricks her into setting up his vengeful deed. He owes her big; esp since she's still shielding him by not reporting this back on Atlantis. Why? Missed that.

The sfx on both shows are always getting better, and the scenes with Rodney and Shep in the lab were excellent. Loved the Ancient's "big honkin' space gun" at the end. I'm pretty ok with the Daedalus coming to the rescue (again) but it sure was cutting it close for all of them. Three quarters, five sixths of the galaxy blown to smithereens. Wow.

Bet the resident counselor is going to get two new visitors soon... ;)

Just sayin'.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 19th, 2005, 07:35 PM
Good episode, not the best.
Interesting ending though (Weir & McKay Argument)

JanusAncient
August 19th, 2005, 07:46 PM
I will hurt feelings, and people will hate me because of this, but I really don't like Mckay, the ego, the self-absorbed nature of this guy, his unwillingness to believe in anything other than science, his constant need to be the best, I understand that the guy had a traumatic childhood, but is that really an excuse for him to act as he does. I loved the power source, Ancient technology is increasingly more intriguing. Dr. Weir and Caldwell, finally seeing, to some extent, the necessity of each others role in Atlantis, Daedalus being there at the end, Ancients caught by surprise, unable to ascend, this episode was brilliant, all the way.

the fifth man
August 19th, 2005, 08:00 PM
Very good episode. I really like how this show is developing. Ah, that poor, poor, cocky McKay. Bit off way more than he could chew, without a doubt. He's really gonna half to win back confidence now. Should be fun to watch him do it, though. Can't wait until next week's episode. Finally we'll learn more about the wraith.

AGateFan
August 19th, 2005, 08:05 PM
Yeah, last I knew it's the ratings king for Friday.

What is ratings king on Fridays? Atlantis, yeah they were on top last I heard too.

SciFiGeek
August 19th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Hmm, I'm so glad to finally have a Friday night in which I truly love all three shows the SciFi Channel has to offer. I'm glad that Atlantis finally had an episode this season that I almost completely enjoyed.

Well, there was McKay-Sheppard...and how can you go wrong with that. Truly. I don't care if they're arguing, bantering, discussing which rooms in Atlantis they'd like; the episode had the one thing I felt this season was more than a little lacking up till now; and I was more than satiated.

I'm having to reponder my feelings towards McKay, what with the sporatic, inconsistent writing of his character at the start, and then Duet, which took his character to an uncomfortable extreme that I found difficult to handle; I think felt like ShadowMaat said she did with him about this episode; in character, but cringeworthy to watch.

But while I enjoyed last weeks episode (certainly more than say Runner), I prefer episodes that are more character than plot driver, and I felt this one was much more so. I think it's fascinating (and yes, cringeworthy) watching the extremes McKay goes to in his obsession with science. And I absolutely loved some of his scenes with Sheppard--especially the one where he asked him for his trust.

The one thing I did wonder, with the ending scene, is did McKay really ever have Sheppard's full trust? Sheppard indicated so, but I don't know...hmmm...must ponder on this.

As for the Teyla-Ronon sup-plot...slightly better than I thought it would be. It showed minimal increase for Ronon's character. On the downside, I thought the breaks were cutting too much into the intensity of the other plot and was making me like it less. On the upside, I didn't think I'd ever say this, but go Teyla! I was so glad she told him off for using her. I like that she sympathized with him, but still reprimanded him for that. Teyla makes a good diplomat; they should concentrate more on that as an aspect of her personality and less on how high up her stomach her shirts go when she's fighting with sticks.

Yay! I love SciFi Friday again!

fatesfortune
August 19th, 2005, 08:56 PM
I found it a very good episode tonight. Poor Mckay. Though on the other hand, I find it very interesting that he reverted back to his extreamely cocky, im always right attititude. It think one of the major parts to his character is that he is changing, and so he will revert back to his old nature. He has to learn to play nice with people now, and he has to realize that not everything is within his ability to handle, as was pretty much the case on earth. Its also interesting that he developed pretty much an obsession with making the power source work. I saw it that he wanted to make it work, not so he would be seen as a hero or anything, but because it would actually help all the people he was actually starting to get close to, and I also saw his obsession as a way for him to try and ignore the guilt that he felt over one of his scientists dying.
Also I think the scenes between Mckay and Shepperd were very good. Its interesting to see how their relationship grows, and changes shape and how its effected by the things that happen. It will be interesting to see how they act towards each other in the next episode or two, as well as how mckay and weir act towards each other as well. It would be nice to see mckay in the doghouse for a little bit, because I think it could add some nice areas for character development.
This episode definatly left the future wide open to a lot of possibilities.

Lord You
August 19th, 2005, 09:13 PM
Interesting episode! I really liked the Ford/McKay and Telya/Ronan interaction. I really hated how stuck up McKay was, but that made him interesting to watch! I was also afraid Telya and Ronan's trek was going to be cliche, but the actors continue to impress In fact, I think Shepard is the least interesting character in the group to me! A few other notes:

1) The control room seemed inspired by Forbidden Planet and Star Trek Voyager's The Omega Directive. Both good things. :-)

2) So ZPMs do act as batteries and it has nothing to do with the Casimir effect. I suspected that, and applaud the powers that be for realizing that zero-point energy really means something different than popular accounts.

2) Zelenka's science was horrible at the end! It sounded good (virtual particles). However, the particles he described behave exactly like gluons in the nucleus of every atom! Gluons interact with themselves as well as hadrons. In fact, the Strong Force - which gluons mediate - gets stronger the more distance between hadrons. Yet it doesn't result in a chain reaction.

Gargen
August 19th, 2005, 09:13 PM
I was looking forward to this episode, and as it turns out, I was correct in doing so. This was a great episode.

Best quote:

Weir: You destroyed three quarters of a solar system!
McKay: Look. Five sixths...but its not an exact science.
Weir: Rodney! Can you Give your ego a rest for one second?!

In fact, the entire scene with Weir yelling at McKay in the background was hillarious.

A pity we never got the power source to work right.

Oh, and I have to mention that I am continually impressed with the quality of the Visual Effects and props/scenery. I always love the cool little computer interfaces. And the Big Bad Zero Point generator looked neat as well.


i noticed oyu made it your sig as well haha man i dont blame mckay it wasnt really his fault though his being an ******* was uncalled for but when it comes to physics like that sometimes somepeople just have a different level of understanding and get pissed when others try to be at that level

Daniel's_twin
August 19th, 2005, 09:18 PM
An OK episode IMHO. Not their best, but kinda interesting. It was a stand-alone, and they're usually not as good as continuity-based ones. But I guess as far as stand-alones go, it was alright. I must say though, it was definitely interesting to see McKay go to such great lengths to prove to everyone (as well as himself) that he really is super-brain and can do anything. Even when the device was overloading, he was still saying this shouldn't be happening, I didn't see that coming!

I give it two and a half stars out of five. :cool:

Osiris-RA
August 19th, 2005, 09:34 PM
Why this wp was called Trinity... I'm not exactly sure yet. Anyone care to explain?

If you look up the phrase: "I'm gonna squeeze your head like a cherry tomato!!!" up in the dictionary or your thesaurus, I'm pretty sure a picture of mckay is next to it. But I digress.

This was a great character building ep for the Sg universes's favorite little twerp. Not only did he unveil a particularly nincompoopy side to himself that I dare say I've never seen before, he kind of showed us the dangerous side of the scientist who believes - somewhere inside his soul - that he is part godman. As godman, it's his duty to do the best he can to ensure that his status is affirmed with his fellows and to assure himself that he is godman and has everything in control. Gotta say DH captured the annoying Mckay perfectly. I think godmen are usualy power hungry geeks anyway. :p

The Teyla/Dex sub story confused me. What were they doing again? I mustv'e not been paying attention. Up until Dex shot that guy I was like 'huh?' Besides some nice Dex footage, I'd say our beach babewatch hunk is slightly twitterpated with Teyla - of course, that could be the sugar coating coming at me. He seems a bit sneaky and foxy like. You never know what he might be thinking and he tries to cover up his sneakiness with a pure, innocent, blinding smile...which doesn't work on the smarter of the female gender. Hopefully Teyla sees through his subterfuge. They seem to have a nice bro/sis thing going on actually, and seeing as Teyla should be the older sister, :D I'd say she has the right to ground Dex. :D:p

starfox
August 19th, 2005, 10:01 PM
I really loved this episode. I got McKay & Zelenka's excitement at the beginning of the episode and I got McKay's reasoning for wanting to go back to the project even before he explained it. The whole thing rang true to his character; he needed to solve the problem, to understand why it didn't work. Then his inflated ego and glory-seeking nature kicked in and everything went to hell. But it needed to happen; no one can be right all the time and everyone had to learn that Rodney can't always do it all. It's like Weir said, "Sometimes I have to save Rodney from himself." Everyone learned that this ep, and they weren't happy about it.
I also like that part of Rodney's problem here was thinking outside the box. He failed because he found himself in a situation where the normal laws of physics, the foundations of everything important in his life, didn't apply, and he couldn't truly get that in his head. Everyone from Earth in Atlantis is in a foreign situation, but Rodney had science to fall back on, it was something he could control. He's now found himself in a situation where the rules don't apply and he's out of control and he's been shaken by that.

The one-on-ones between McKay and Sheppard were great, David Hewlett nailed those. The writers did a brilliant job with those, too. I liked how they kept the lines very bare and formal and incomplete and let DH do the rest.

LOVED Zelenka. The Zelenka/McKay dynamic is always great to watch; Hewlett and Nykl play off each other well.

The Ronon-Teyla B-story was o.k., though I didn't feel compelled to watch it on the second run. It didn't tell me so much about Ronan as it did about Teyla. I like that she got why Ronan shot the guy, and was more pissed that he jerked her around than that he killed someone. She's a fighter and she understands the attitudes of people who've lived their whole lives under the Wraith, she's not just the pretty sidekick.


All-in-all, a pretty good ep.

rexpop
August 19th, 2005, 10:13 PM
Hahaha NO. I would hazard a guess that this BSG episode ran long and so they cut SGA's credits to accomodate. The BSG podcast constantly mentions deleted scenes and such... presumably they just managed to get an extra few seconds in on this one.

I actually think it was the other way around with SGA running over as BSG started bang on 10pm PST according to my cable box. Actually SGA did feel like it ran a little longer than usual, maybe it was because the episode had a proper ending rather than the quick cutaway of last week.

Personally I'm willing to sacrifice the end credits and endure the shortened opening credits if it keeps the shows on the air, and gives the shows an extra minute or so to add a little more depth.

not so ancient
August 19th, 2005, 10:28 PM
Ah, witness the McKay bashing. The long knives are out, and everyone's getting a juicy slice. Predictable. This is, after all, the board where Ancients are accused of being mass murderers, or was it Sheppard who was a psychopath, or, was it Teyla's fault that the Genii attacked, or .... heck, I can't keep track of all these condemnations. Please send a memo!

I think Rodney was overzealous, and not nearly cautious enough in this ep. That is undeniable. I just see the genesis of this quite differently. There are those who see McKay as borderline nuts, egomaniacal, manifesting a 'godman' complex. I see him as eager. Sheppard, mind you, had the same eagerness.

Rodney and Caldwell were right in pushing to explore the incredible possibilities that the technology offered. McKay knew the Ancients were building it when they were under Sieg. Everything he said as to the circumstances where it had not worked before was, to my way of thinking, plausible.

He was also quite right that keeping on was the only way to make Collins death mean something. You don't quit due to one setback, even if that setback is undeniably tragic. If we did that, we'd never have airplanes, or automobiles, or, well, much of anything.

It's impossible to overstate the value of something that would *power every machine on Earth, Atlantis, and any number of spaceships, forever.* In all things, you have to measure the risks against the possible rewards, and those risks do include human lives. Everyone on Atlantis knew that danger was very present when they joined. Of course, minimizing those risks is absolutely vital, but they can't be eliminated.

McKay is arrogant but it's not really unjustified. 99% of scientists in the world wouldn't even know where to begin. Most scientists wouldn't want to begin. He got very close. But did not succeed. But for Big D, he and Sheppard would be toast.

To me, the most compelling moments were Rodney asking for Sheppard's trust and realizing he had broken it badly. In a way, Rodney didn't return that trust by letting Sheppard pull him back when his own desires and focus made him blind to realities.

smushybird
August 19th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Ah, witness the McKay bashing. The long knives are out, and everyone's getting a juicy slice. Predictable.

Oh no, not everyone's bashing him. At least I hope not. I too saw him as passionate and driven and needing to know why it didn't work and wanting to make it work. He's a scientist. It's only natural. Unlike others, I didn't even cringe -- I liked that Rodney was being who he was, even if the egomonster ran a little rampant tonight. :D I loved Zelenka's utter exasperation and I loved all of Sheppard's reactions even more.

Liz has a chip on her shoulder when it comes to dealing with Caldwell. His query that maybe Collins made the fatal error was entirely reasonable. Liz instantly jumped down his throat about it, which seemed a bit much, even for her. I was amused and fascinated that Rodney tolerated her yelling (does a real leader yell and scream like that?) without seeming all that concerned about it, but when it came to apologizing to Sheppard, his heart was really in it there. :) That was so nice to see. I love the progression of their friendship --and it's really starting to feeling like a friendship now. Rodney's apology was touching and Sheppard's reaction to it was perfect. When he gave just that wee bit to let Rodney know that Rodney hadn't ruined everything...and those doors closed....and you could read every thought going through McKay's (and DH's) head by just the look in his eyes...and you just ached for him. What an utterly delicious actor DH is.

I don't remember any scene ever so lovely in any SG1 ep. I wish there had been scenes like that between Daniel and Jack, with such satisfying emotions and a sense of real connection. I really loved this ep.

Shipperahoy
August 19th, 2005, 10:59 PM
I have mixed feelings about this episode but somehow I think that that was the intention of TPTB. I like that they show how fallible Rodney is and how his arrogance gets the better of him, which is something that they never really managed to do on SG-1 very well, but at the same time I found myself thinking that even someone as conceited as McKay wouldn't put that many people are risk (the first time when everyone was telling him to shut it down) just because he was caught up. However, I think it's good that I was a bit disturbed. It gives you something to think about and I really hope that the consequences of this episode are addressed down the line.

As far as the Teyla/Dex storyline goes I actually quite enjoyed it. It gave more insight into both Teyla and Dex's characters and they, like McKay, were found fallible in their own ways (just not on as large of a scale as poor Rodney). I understood Ronan's reasonings behind his actions but, like Teyla, found the way he went about executing said actions to be a bit shady. And I was honestly surprised that Teyla would suggest keeping something like that from the rest of the team. Might it not be important for them to know that Ronan used Teyla without her knowledge in order to kill a man in cold blood? Even if he may have really deserved it? That may be something that they might want to keep in mind when going out on missions with him but whatever.

I'm also not sure how I felt about the fact that Liz apparently can't say no to Shep and that everybody seems to be aware of that fact. I do think that when push comes to shove Weir is a strong enough leader to make decisions on her own but I'm not sure about the fact that she's swayed so much by Shep's opinion. Of course he is her second in command and she should value his opinion so maybe it's just the ship aspect of it that's making me so leery. I admit to starting to see a bit of ship between those two characters, though I'd not go so far as to call myself a Shep/Weir shipper. Many people felt that the ship between Sam and Jack weakened her as a military officer and as a capable women in her own right and I'd rather not have that talk start up again with different people.

Hyperspace
August 19th, 2005, 11:16 PM
I think with McKay, one HAS to yell sometimes to get stuff into his head. He's so *smart* he doesn't listen well to others...

...I too thought this ep bore resemblance to VOY's "The Omega Directive," but once again, Stargate's approach is far superior.

I thought the set resembled the Ori village in "Avalon"---a redress probably? The 'bridge' seemed especiall familiar.

How was Ronan's teacher exactly a 'traitor'? It was explained so fast I didn't figure it out exactly. My guess is he ordered his men to stand their ground in a futile fight when their planet was being invaded...instead he shouldn't have told them to stay at their posts? Or did he do something more malicious, such as blindly sacrifice his men to ensure his escape...on a ship perhaps? And I wonder how Ronan's other friend would have reacted?

Also, what was the 'Trinity' in this ep? Was it Rodney/Shep/Weir? Or Teyla/Ronan/other guy?

The Redshirt moment was pretty obvious this time, I also felt that 'passage' reminded me of 'Resident Evil' the movie. Too bad about Collins...

...liked the SFX of the planet, and the graveyard...this ep was pretty good, not as enjoyable for me as 'Condemned' but still pretty good. McKay this season has reverted back to early S1 McKay, and so he had to be brought down a notch, and learn from his mistakes. He truly perverted the meaning of Collins' death to suit his own ambitions, and I don't think he fully learned his lesson on this.

And is there the preview for next week's SGA ep somewhere?

derrickh
August 19th, 2005, 11:22 PM
At this rate it'll only be a couple more eps before Teyla starts showing up to briefings with black eyes and bruises and saying she fell down the stairs or ran into a door and that Ronon would never hurt her on purpose.

Ronon has a lot of issues. Mostly violence and rage, but also an alchohol problem, too. These aren't the sort of problems that build character or something that a relationship can fix. They're the type of problems that end up with Ronon hurting someone. (Hurt as in 'kill', not hurt as in 'feelings').

And with each bad act, Teyla gets closer to him. She's going on a friendly trading mission and Ronon wants to make it a date. Teyla says sure, and then tells him to just bring concealable weapons. Huh? What? How about telling the ex-kidnapper not to bring any weapons at all because they're just going to the store to buy some seeds? But no, Teyla likes her men dangerous. And guess what happens during the negotiations? Ronon brandishes his knife and threatens a man. Now at this point. Teyla should be thinking that maybe Ronon needs to leave. But no, she gives him a good stern talking to, instead. I'm sure that'll work.

Then Ronon gets good news and handles it by getting drunk. So drunk that he can barely stand. Firstly, getting drunk when you get great news is not an acceptable response. Hey, my wife just had a healthy baby boy! I'm going to get falling down drunk. Wow, my mom just came out of surgery and will make a full recovery, guess it's time to get stupid drunk. There are survivors from my home planet, wait a sec while I get plastered. Thats the sign of someone who doesn't drink responsibly. Maybe he's not an alcoholic...yet.

There's more. So he lies to Teyla to get her to set up a meeting with Kel. And then he kills Kel in front of her. No trail, no explanation. Ronon thinks this man should die. And so he kills him. Teyla pretends she's mad but at this point, her words are hollow and Ronon knows it. And she proves it by saying they should keep it a secret. Really Teyla? You're so upset with him for lying to you, endangering your life, and killing a man in cold blood that you don't want anything to happen to him? I hope she's on the jury when I decided to break a few laws. Oh wait, she gave him another stern talking too. The first one worked so well that instead of brandishing a knife, he shot a man in the chest at close range. You go girl.

This is so by the book that it can't be an accident in the writing. Teyla is being written as a battered woman who makes excuses for her man while deluding herself into thinking she's in control of things.

This is the 3rd episode where this type of stuff happens so it can't be dismissed as a fluke.

D

urzaserra256
August 20th, 2005, 12:31 AM
Wouldnt this powersource make an extremely deadly weapon??? Id say that something that can destoy a large part of a solar system in 1 go coudl have its uses?? Maybe if they can scale down teh area it would be really usefull.

On the name of the episode. Trinity remind of of the first atomic bomb test and is often sometimes used in sci fi to describe thsi kind of device soemthing that is extremely powerful but yet hard to contol.

I ddint really care for the b story too much.

It would have been awesoem to actully see the destruction of the solar system instead of this stargate graphic and then the end.

sparklegem
August 20th, 2005, 12:32 AM
I'll post my thoughts later, but it seemed that people's question as to the title of the episode hadn't been answered, so I thought I'd pitch in.

source: http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1156825&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD


It is an homage to the name of the test site used by the Americans in WWII when they developed and detonated their atomic bomb.

McKay kept referencing the planet as the Ancient equivalent of the Manhatten Project. Manhatten Project was the code name for the atomic bomb project.

John Preston
August 20th, 2005, 12:35 AM
I watched the first 3-5 minutes of it and then stopped.

Why?

First off, they show up in their little jumper flying along, and that's fine and all and they have their banter going about(And I really thought Dex was Ford for a moment, it just doesn't feel like he's gone).

Then there's this big massive graveyard in space.

And they're saying "It's from 10,000 years ago".


NOW HOLD ON.

If it was that long ago the fricking junk would've been pulled into the atmosphere of the planet! There is no way in 10,000 years a large planet with seeming normal Earth Gravity could have a bunch of free floating junk! Satellites for Earth need to use little rockets to alter their alignment. A lot of space junk falls into Earth's atmosphere(and some burns up) because it runs out of power and gets sucked down.

Given 10,000 years the planet should've been somewhat covered with the remains(Which might've been neat...seeing large hive ship carcasses on a desolate wasteland).

Then there was the "There's a power source! It's coming from there!" and I swear that I was saying almost word for word what they were saying at that point, because it was predictable.

And of course they'd find a weapon.

And of course there'd be problems.

It felt very generic, like they needed something to fill up the season.

SophieTucker
August 20th, 2005, 01:32 AM
Thanks for explaining the Trinity reference, I wasn't getting it either.

I realize if I knew a person like Rodney in real life - I probably wouldn't like him. The reason I've liked him onscreen is that DH is such a terrific actor he's been able to give a redeeming quality to the character. And last season I really enjoyed the McKay/Sheppard scenes. We haven't really seen much of that this season and this ep makes me wonder if we ever will again. I did feel a sense of pity for Rodney at the end.

What I do find interesting is how much more "wrong" people seem to find Rodney's ego than when other characters make such catastrophic mistakes. Remember Collins death wasn't a result of Rodney's "obsession" it happened before - although he did put Sheppards life at risk and that was definitely a disappointment for me with his character.

But other Atlantis members have also put lives at risk because of their "confidence" in their ability. I think Hot Zone was one of those episodes - Weir was going to let the city be exposed to a level 4 pathogen because she believed she could "talk down" a person clearly not thinking on a rational level. I marvel that she could still be in command of Atlantis with such reckless decision making. Sheppard also made some bad decisions in that episode. And did Sheppard put the entire city at risk when he didn't try to stop Ford from escaping? It just seems that while all the characters are flawed - it's Rodney's flaws that seem less "forgiveable".

The Ronon/Teyla sideline didn't do much for my opinion of Ronon. I thought it interesting that Teyla and Ronon now have secrets from the "others".

alaskannut
August 20th, 2005, 02:07 AM
If it was that long ago the fricking junk would've been pulled into the atmosphere of the planet! There is no way in 10,000 years a large planet with seeming normal Earth Gravity could have a bunch of free floating junk! Satellites for Earth need to use little rockets to alter their alignment. A lot of space junk falls into Earth's atmosphere(and some burns up) because it runs out of power and gets sucked down.
I'll admit that I have not seen "Trinity" yet so I don't know the height at which the "grave yard" was orbiting. That said though;

that is not quite how it works--the "junk" that falls into the Earths atmosphere is primarily comprised of used stages from launcher rockets, with the odd satellite from low orbit (~200-400 miles altitude) where the atmosphere, however tenuous it is, still exerts some drag and the planets gravitational pull is much, much more prevalent. Beyond this altitude, bar unforeseen circumstances, a satellite is essentially there for the duration, and will generally only reenter if ordered to from the ground once it is deemed obsolete and thus expendable. Indeed a major avenue of research today is into methods of deorbiting satellites without using bulky fuel (to lower launch costs), since there are so many in orbit (since they don't tend to come down on their own), that as strange as it may sound, we are quite simply running out of "orbital slots" to put new ones into.

keppiezbt
August 20th, 2005, 03:15 AM
i think the point of this episode was to show mckay couldn't get himself out of every situation and he wasnt perfect.

they were starting a trend where mckay saves the day and the point of this episdoe was to knock him down a few pegs...

Hatcheter
August 20th, 2005, 05:21 AM
At this rate it'll only be a couple more eps before Teyla starts showing up to briefings with black eyes and bruises and saying she fell down the stairs or ran into a door and that Ronon would never hurt her on purpose...

<silliness snipped>

...Teyla is being written as a battered woman who makes excuses for her man while deluding herself into thinking she's in control of things.

I sure hope this was written in jest. Teyla, abused? Did you miss the knife she held to Ronon's throat? She'd have slit it if he tried to harm her.

I thought this was a great episode. Good development for most all the major characters. Rodney revealed how obsessed and tunnel-visioned he can get, refusing to heed the advice of Zelenka or others. And it's always nice, IMO, when a show is willing to nock its heroes down a peg or two.

I liked Caldwell's part, interesting to see him and Sheppard siding together to try to convince Weir. And her later dressing down of Rodney.

Teyla got to show some development as well. I think Dex is a great addition to the cast, if for no other reason then Teyla now has someone she can relate to. It was hard to give her anything to do when she was surrounded by people making remarks on things she was unfamiliar with. (ferris wheels?)

A Whiter Shade
August 20th, 2005, 05:30 AM
I have to agree with the earlier poster that once again the episode was seriously lacking in beleivability! My big hang up this episode is the super gun destroying the entire planet.

Assuming that the planet's land masses were spread out like on earth there is absolutely positively no way a energy gun could wipe everything out because it shoots in straight lines! A vast majority of the planet would be outside its "line of site".

Sam thing applies to the wraith ships. If they didn't want to get blown up, and who would, all they needed to do was keep on the opposite side of the planet as the gun.

Granted it's not as bad as assuming several wraith patrol ships only need 12 prisoners to survive, but it's still pretty bad.

prion
August 20th, 2005, 06:03 AM
At this rate it'll only be a couple more eps before Teyla starts showing up to briefings with black eyes and bruises and saying she fell down the stairs or ran into a door and that Ronon would never hurt her on purpose.

Say what? Hello? She pulled the knife on him, remember? If he hit, she'd hit him back and she CAN hit.

Ronon has a lot of issues. Mostly violence and rage, but also an alchohol problem, too. These aren't the sort of problems that build character or something that a relationship can fix. They're the type of problems that end up with Ronon hurting someone. (Hurt as in 'kill', not hurt as in 'feelings').

Having the character get drunk ONCE is not an alcohol problem. If he had an alcohol problem, he'd be dead. You can't get drunk and be on alert for the wraith 24/7. Howver, he does have 'anger management' issues. He has been accountable to no one but himself for years, and that showed when he shot Kell, although his former comrades in arms didn't disagree with his tactic. Makes you wonder what kind of world he came from.

And with each bad act, Teyla gets closer to him. She's going on a friendly trading mission and Ronon wants to make it a date. Teyla says sure, and then tells him to just bring concealable weapons. Huh? What? How about telling the ex-kidnapper not to bring any weapons at all because they're just going to the store to buy some seeds? But no, Teyla likes her men dangerous. And guess what happens during the negotiations? Ronon brandishes his knife and threatens a man. Now at this point. Teyla should be thinking that maybe Ronon needs to leave. But no, she gives him a good stern talking to, instead. I'm sure that'll work.

Teyla talks first, then resorts to action (violence) only if necessary. She's the leader of her people and if she used violence first, well, she wouldn't last long. I'm not sure where you get the idea that she likes her men 'dangerous.'


This is so by the book that it can't be an accident in the writing. Teyla is being written as a battered woman who makes excuses for her man while deluding herself into thinking she's in control of things.

This is the 3rd episode where this type of stuff happens so it can't be dismissed as a fluke.

If this were BSG, I'd give some credence to such a theory, but Teyla a battered woman? Uh uh.

prion
August 20th, 2005, 06:11 AM
I have mixed feelings about this episode but somehow I think that that was the intention of TPTB. I like that they show how fallible Rodney is and how his arrogance gets the better of him, which is something that they never really managed to do on SG-1 very well, but at the same time I found myself thinking that even someone as conceited as McKay wouldn't put that many people are risk (the first time when everyone was telling him to shut it down) just because he was caught up. However, I think it's good that I was a bit disturbed. It gives you something to think about and I really hope that the consequences of this episode are addressed down the line.

Yup. Someone needs to make a video to "Blinded by Science" for Rodney in this episode. Like you, I hope the consequences/followup occur to this episode. Rodney was great in this episode - well, Hewlett was - Rodney was going a bit around the bend. Of course, he's been through a heckuva lot - saving the city, etc. in "Siege", being nearly killed by Ford, being sorta possessed by Cadman in "Duet." Maybe when Rodney 'snaps', it's not your typical go nuts type scenario, but just thinking he CAN do it all.


As far as the Teyla/Dex storyline goes I actually quite enjoyed it. It gave more insight into both Teyla and Dex's characters and they, like McKay, were found fallible in their own ways (just not on as large of a scale as poor Rodney). I understood Ronan's reasonings behind his actions but, like Teyla, found the way he went about executing said actions to be a bit shady. And I was honestly surprised that Teyla would suggest keeping something like that from the rest of the team. Might it not be important for them to know that Ronan used Teyla without her knowledge in order to kill a man in cold blood? Even if he may have really deserved it? That may be something that they might want to keep in mind when going out on missions with him but whatever.

We got some good insight into both Teyla and Ronon, and Teyla got more to do than kick people or beat them up with sticks. Her reaction to Ronon using her to commit murder was definitely justified, but I can also see why, to a degree, she said not to speak of it on Atlantis. Shepaprd would NOT be thrilled to know this new guy he recruited for the team used one of his team members to act out revenge. Whether or not Kell deserved it (we assume he did), Ronon used Teyla for his own means. In a way, just like Rodney used Sheppard to get back to the planet to continue the experiment.

THe whole episode was about breaking down trust, which will lead to more conflict later on, and like I keep repeating in a mantra <G> that we'll see that trust rebuilt.

I'm also not sure how I felt about the fact that Liz apparently can't say no to Shep and that everybody seems to be aware of that fact. I do think that when push comes to shove Weir is a strong enough leader to make decisions on her own but I'm not sure about the fact that she's swayed so much by Shep's opinion. Of course he is her second in command and she should value his opinion so maybe it's just the ship aspect of it that's making me so leery. I admit to starting to see a bit of ship between those two characters, though I'd not go so far as to call myself a Shep/Weir shipper.

I think she can say no to Sheppard, but then if she says no, he doesn't go anywhere, and our guys can't get into monumental trouble... ;) But Caldwell was also pushing, and I think this was a position where she put her trust in Sheppard to keep McKay in line, and that didn't work, so she probably has some trust issues with SHeppard.

Gah, the entire group of them need to be sent off to a trust-building-team exercise thing at a retreat (weren't those popular several years back?) Even poor Zelenka. Man, McKay really ripped into the poor guy. I can see Atlantis being a very tense place for a few days.... if not more.

AGateFan
August 20th, 2005, 06:32 AM
Gah, the entire group of them need to be sent off to a trust-building-team exercise thing at a retreat (weren't those popular several years back?) Even poor Zelenka. Man, McKay really ripped into the poor guy. I can see Atlantis being a very tense place for a few days.... if not more.

Heightmeyer has a lot of work ahead of her. Maybe she should hire some help. :p

John Preston
August 20th, 2005, 06:33 AM
I'll admit that I have not seen "Trinity" yet so I don't know the height at which the "grave yard" was orbiting. That said though;

that is not quite how it works--the "junk" that falls into the Earths atmosphere is primarily comprised of used stages from launcher rockets, with the odd satellite from low orbit (~200-400 miles altitude) where the atmosphere, however tenuous it is, still exerts some drag and the planets gravitational pull is much, much more prevalent. Beyond this altitude, bar unforeseen circumstances, a satellite is essentially there for the duration, and will generally only reenter if ordered to from the ground once it is deemed obsolete and thus expendable. Indeed a major avenue of research today is into methods of deorbiting satellites without using bulky fuel (to lower launch costs), since there are so many in orbit (since they don't tend to come down on their own), that as strange as it may sound, we are quite simply running out of "orbital slots" to put new ones into.

So you're saying that if something is in orbit it can remain there on it's own power even if it has no sort of boosters or rockets, but merely is just a big hunk of metal?

That doesn't make sense seeing as gravity is pulling on it. I would expect it to have a steadily deteriorating orbital path o.O

AGateFan
August 20th, 2005, 06:36 AM
So you're saying that if something is in orbit it can remain there on it's own power even if it has no sort of boosters or rockets, but merely is just a big hunk of metal?

That doesn't make sense seeing as gravity is pulling on it. I would expect it to have a steadily deteriorating orbital path o.O

I guess it could be steadily deteriorating at a very very very slow rate. Or it could be that the items have reached an equilibrium. I mean we are orbiting the sun and the moon is orbiting earth and then there are all the astriods that are orbiting in the galaxy... the rings of Saturn are just orbiting debris.. none of those things have crashed into anything yet.

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2005, 06:43 AM
Wow, derrick, what an excessively negative view you have of Ronon. Sheesh. I'll grant the anger management issues, but a drinking problem?? For pity's sake, the man just found out he ISN'T the last survivor of his doomed world, isn't he allowed to celebrate that fact? He isn't some cruel, evil SOB prone to uncontrolled fits of violence, he isn't a drunken monster, and he isn't some psychotic amoral b***ard who's as likely to kill a friend as an enemy. But that certainly seems to be the picture you've developed of him. Wow. I guess it proves that anything can be read into anything and that even seemingly innocent acts could be tell-tale signs of horror and madness. ;) Thanks for your insights, but I think I'll stick to my somewhat boring view of Dex the Walking Cliche, who has moments of depth and some fun quirks but who still needs to be defined as someone different and unique.

And as for Teyla, well, I've never much cared for her character, but it was nice to see her given stuff to do in this ep and where you saw it as her slowly succumbing to the violent charms of a "dangerous man", I saw it as her feeling responsible for his wellbeing and a slight deepening of the "alien conspiracy" connection between them. :D I thought their chemistry was good, and not in a disturbing "he's going to beat the crap out of her and she's going to beg for more" kind of way. But again, wow, what an amazingly diverse outlook on something I thought was mostly harmless.

Shipmum, you made a very good point about the Weir/Shep dynamic. While I understand that Caldwell was brought in as a contrary element, I MUCH prefer to see it when Weir and Sheppard are the ones going head-to-head over an issue. IMO, they have better chemistry when they're fighting.

Regarding the arrogance of characters leading to greater danger: Yeah, Shep's "confidence" in Hot Zone led to problems that were ultimately resolved, Teyla's "determination" in LfP led to bigger problems which were eventually resolved, the ego of the crew in general for inviting perfect strangers into their home (so to speak) has caused LOTS of trouble, so I don't really see McKay's actions being any different except that for once, things didn't end happily. Sure, they all escaped, but vaporizing half (or 5/8's or whatever) of a galaxy isn't really what I'd call a "winning solution".

Incidentally, if nothing could stay in orbit then the moon would have crashed into us long ago. ;) The debris field did seem pretty large for something that happened 10,000 years ago and I would have thought that the smaller pieces would have fallen by now, but I also know there are paint chips, nuts, bolts, and various other bits of debris still circling OUR orbit, so maybe it isn't entirely outrageous. And yeah, Saturn has a whole ring of rocky "debris".

re the space gun destroying planet: I don't think it was the gun that destroyed it, it was the power source of the gun. The gun was only going off in order to try and vent off excess pressure or whatever in order to prevent an explosion. That, obviously, failed. Hasn't SG-1 toyed with that? Attaching a naquadah generator to a bomb? Or having a staff weapon overload and explode violently? I know the "weapon overload causes explostion" theme is common in scifi. It just happened that this time, it was on a really big scale. Unbelieveable? I dunno. I don't have enough science to say one way or the other. But I'm willing to grant the benefit of a doubt since I've seen similar things happen on a smaller scale. I mean, if you attach a nuclear bomb to a naquadah generator, it creates a much bigger blast, right? So what would happen if you attached it to a ZPM? And if this "energy source" that they found makes ZPMs look like little batteries, well, you get even more bang for your buck, right?

Whatever. Like I said, I didn't have much of a problem with that aspect of it and I'm not really inclined to go looking for problems and trying to poke holes in the theories behind it.

strivaria
August 20th, 2005, 06:59 AM
So you're saying that if something is in orbit it can remain there on it's own power even if it has no sort of boosters or rockets, but merely is just a big hunk of metal?

That doesn't make sense seeing as gravity is pulling on it. I would expect it to have a steadily deteriorating orbital path o.O

Yes, if the object in orbit is sufficiently far enough from the planet and orbiting in roughly the same velocity, it's called a Geosynchronous Orbit. And it's not just gravity working on an orbit, there is also the push of solar winds to consider as well. But for the most part, if it's a stable system, then there isn't any reason to think that space junk couldn't still be there after all that time.

No I'm not a rocket scientist, but I've been working with satellites for the last 14 years... both geostationary and low earth orbit...

not so ancient
August 20th, 2005, 07:04 AM
Teyla is being written as a battered woman who makes excuses for her man while deluding herself into thinking she's in control of things.



Just when I thought nobody at Gateworld could surprise me any more with a new and very twisted way of viewing things, you come along.

Wow.

Just....wow.

not so ancient
August 20th, 2005, 07:35 AM
I have to agree with the earlier poster that once again the episode was seriously lacking in beleivability! My big hang up this episode is the super gun destroying the entire planet.


Um, gee, maybe that's because it's not just a 'super gun'? I do believe it was clearly stated that the nature of the device is to create massive, massive amounts of energy.

I'm not even sure we can wrap our minds around this kind of energy. The Arcuturs is something on the order of a superconducting-supercollider-plus-controlled-fusion-nuclear-reaction.

There are, at the end of the Periodic Table of Elements, highly unstable elements that, as I understand, exist as a result of, and for a short time, in nuclear reactions. Einsteinum, Mendelevium. Remember those? Zelenka said that particles like that were being produced by the Arcturus. Those particles are one of the things that a superconducting supercollider can reproduce and study.

That should have told you this is so very much more than a mere 'gun'. Yes, it had a weapons platform attached as one of it applications, but that's like saying a nuclear reactor is really nothing more than a coffeepot because a coffeepot can be powered by it.

Mio
August 20th, 2005, 07:36 AM
I have to agree with the earlier poster that once again the episode was seriously lacking in beleivability! My big hang up this episode is the super gun destroying the entire planet.

Assuming that the planet's land masses were spread out like on earth there is absolutely positively no way a energy gun could wipe everything out because it shoots in straight lines! A vast majority of the planet would be outside its "line of site".

You're confusing the gun with the power source. The gun was simply a variation on the Ancient defense satellite, modified to shoot in bursts rather than in a 'beam'. The power source was like a AA battery versus a power plant. When the power source was going critical, the weapon tried to relieve some of the excess energy by firing. It was the Zero point extraction thingy going critical that blew up 5/6 of the solar system.

Southern Red
August 20th, 2005, 07:47 AM
Speaking as someone who still believes it's just a TV show which we must view with a huge amount of artistic license, I will still say that this was a great episode for character building and tying up little relationship points.
l. Rodney's arrogance and refusal to listen to reason has been building to the point that he has now nearly destroyed a solar system, almost killed his best friend who may have lost trust in him for good, and broken bonds with his entire scientific team. Oh, and royally pissed off his boss. DH is doing a marvelous job of showing all the conflicting emotions and nearly obsessive thoughts of his character. I love Rodney, but he is making me squirm.
2. Sheppard's struggle to make the right decisions while past failures are haunting him, obey his military superior, not break his shaky trust with Weir and do what he thinks should be done for the good of Atlantis and Earth are all present on his face. Sometimes all at once. His tension is evident in his body language. The way he stands like a coiled spring when he wants to get his point across, and you can just see the wheels turning. Joe is doing a wonderful job of being Sheppard. He's not rushing about, waving his arms and screaming "look at me, here's Shep being stubborn, here's Shep being a brave hero, here he is being the ranking military officer of Atlantis, now it's time to make a face that gets Elizabeth to change her mind" No, Joe Flanigan is John Sheppard. He puts him on like a comfortable pair of shoes and we see his strengths and vulnerabilities.
3. Zalenka has grown so much as a character, and seems to have developed a genuine friendship with McKay. I noticed they are calling each other by their first names. Nykl also projects this character is a skillful way. Now it remains to be seen how the dynamic between those two has been altered.
4. Teyla is finally getting to grow. She will continue to be a great asset to them as a negotiator. She will also prove to be a factor is keeping Ronon from becoming more of his own worst enemy. Now let's move her out of the scantily clad alien wardrobe.
5. Elizabeth is torn between trying to get along with Caldwell because she knows he is out to get her and Sheppard, and following her own tendency to not trust the military and try for peaceful negotiations at all cost. The thought of such a powerful weapon scares her, but she has grown over the last year to the point that she can accept its existence reluctantly. She trusts Sheppard's opinion because she knows he has the best interests of Atlantis at heart and won't lie to her. Yes, some of us see and hope for a relationship between the two of them, but give us some credit for being beyond the "ooh, aren't they pretty. Let's make babies." stage. What,for crying out loud, would be wrong with a slow buildup to a love relationship? Remember that a growing number of mature women are watching this show. It can't be all science yimmer yammer every week.
I'm sure I could think of more, but real life calls. I just wanted to give the psycho shipper perspective.

whatswiththehairtealc
August 20th, 2005, 07:53 AM
The second to last scene where DEX and Tayla get back and Dr. Wier is *****ing the crap out of McKay, is perfectly done. I love how you hear the conversation from way outside the room, highlighting how bad McKay is getting it. it reminded me of the scene in Top Gun when the Air Boss was yelling at the chief instructor about Maveric performing a "flyBy".

I also wonder how many worlds and civilizations McKay wiped out with that little screw up and I wonder if it will come back to bit the team in the ass.

Steve_the_Wraith
August 20th, 2005, 07:58 AM
McKay blew up 5/6 of the solar system but chances are the other planets were uninhabitated

aAnubiSs
August 20th, 2005, 07:59 AM
The second to last scene where DEX and Tayla get back and Dr. Wier is *****ing the crap out of McKay, is perfectly done. I love how you hear the conversation from way outside the room, highlighting how bad McKay is getting it. it reminded me of the scene in Top Gun when the Air Boss was yelling at the chief instructor about Maveric performing a "flyBy".

I also wonder how many worlds and civilizations McKay wiped out with that little screw up and I wonder if it will come back to bit the team in the ass.
0 Civilizations. They would've mentioned if the solar system had a second planet with people on it.

FoolishPleasure
August 20th, 2005, 08:00 AM
My take on "Trinity". . . I liked it quite a bit, on several different levels.

Rodney. . Rodney is not the perfect "Nobel prize winning" scientist he thinks he is. That's what I like about this show - no one is perfect, everyone "fails" now and then, it makes them more believable as characters. David Hewlett shows, once again, what a versatile actor he is. Loved how he had to ask Sheppard's forgiveness at the end, and I found that scene very powerful. Rodney screwed up big time and now he has to pretty much suck up to everyone. . .until he saves the day in a future episode, and redeems himself. :D

Someone remarked about whether bosses really yell like that. Yep, I've worked for a few men and women who threw marvelous temper tantrums. Weir ripping into Rodney was great, IMO. . go Lizzy!

Ronon continues to impress (and. .NO, he is not an alcoholic :rolleyes: ). Last week I mentioned that Ronon's acceptance into the team was too easy. I said we would find he is still a loose cannon. Yep. He is. I feel that Ronon was a good person and a good soldier in his past, but the circumstances he has lived in has made him. . I guess you could say, feral. It will take time for the "real" Ronon to come forward. He is not an evil, or a bad person, and I bet he even knows table manners. :D

Teyla. .Gee, Ronon and Teyla DO look good together. ;) I have never been a Teyla fan but her scenes with Ronon do have a spark of some sort. Rachel has never seemed to have a connection/chemistry with any of the other actors until now. Rachel and Jason play off each other well and it brings a new side to Teyla. She understands why Ronon killed his mentor (the guy was a traitor and caused the deaths of thousands of Ronon's people), but she doesn't think the Atlantis crew will. So they have a secret. It will come back to bite them, I'm sure. One thing I do have to admit. . a teeny crack sort of opened up. .I just "might" like Teyla a bit more.

One other observation. Caldwell admitted he is on the lookout for Ancient weapons. Sound a bit "Kinseyesque"?

not so ancient
August 20th, 2005, 08:01 AM
It's worth considering what McKay has been through with his science team, too.

The Hot Zone. His science team was attacked by a nanovirus. Several colleagues die. McKay's call to keep everyone isolated was a good one.

The Defiant One. Two of his science team are attacked by the Wraith. One is outright killed by the Wraith. The other is dying and takes his own life.

The Siege. Peter Grodin dies because they couldn't repair the Satellite adequately, despite their best efforts. Because they couldn't repair the Satelitte adequately, two Hive ships continue on to Atlantis and create at least 40 casualties and a great deal of damage.

The Siege Part II. Major efforts by the scientists to get the Chair working, to build nuclear bombs, to get the jumpers remote piloted. No deaths among the scientists (that are shown), but certainly stress beyond anything we can imagine.

The Siege Part III. More heroic scientific work. The city is saved.

Intruder: Two members of McKay's science team are lost.

Trinity: Collins dies.

I don't think anyone can fairly say that McKay tossed these lives away just to serve his ego. None can be, in fact, directly attributed to his decisions, capabilities, or errors, except perhaps Collins.

Even from what's not his fault, it's a terrible burden for McKay to bear. He has to be at least somewhat mentally sound to handle that - at all. A lot of people would have just gone home, because their hearts couldn't take what happened, and what could continue to happen.

There is hard work that requires brilliance, determination, courage, and yes, confidence or even ego, to do in Atlantis. McKay drives forward to find solutions, and while he's very cringy at finding solutions if it involves physical danger to himself, he does that anyway. The rewards (surviving another day, making discoveries that are of immeasurable benefit to humanity) are worth risks.

I think all this schadenfreude at The Comeupance of Rodney McKay is indicative of a lack of insight at best, and a nasty streak, at worst.

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2005, 08:15 AM
What,for crying out loud, would be wrong with a slow buildup to a love relationship? Remember that a growing number of mature women are watching this show. It can't be all science yimmer yammer every week.
What would be wrong with a slow buildup to a romantic relationship? How about the fact that I, for one, don't see any sexual chemistry between Weir and Sheppard? And while I'm sure you didn't intend it, your comment implies, to me, that "mature women" somehow need a romantic element in the show in order to find the show worth watching. Now, while that may be true for you, I doubt that it's true for ALL women, regardless of their maturity level. I watch for the PLOTS, not to see two characters making goo-goo eyes at each other and eventually shagging. If I want that, I'll watch soap operas, thank you, not an action-oriented scifi series.

And just because you don't care for "science yimmer yammer" doesn't mean that others don't like it. I, for one, happen to find the "yimmer yammer" one of the better elements of the show and I'd rather watch THAT than the slow vapidization of Weir and Sheppard as TPTB mangle their characters to make room for more ship. That's my interpretation of things, at least, although I'm sure that many will disagree.

I don't want main character ship on the show. EVER. The only reason I don't object to Dex/Teyla is because neither of them are treated as main characters and because, unlike every other "pairing" I've seen mentioned, I feel that Dex and Teyla actually have a bit of chemistry. If I see chemistry, I'm willing to accept the possibility of ship. If I don't see it, I'm not. *shrug* It's that simple.

Again, just because SOME feel that romance adds to a show doesn't mean that ALL must feel that. I resent the idea that as a woman, I need to have a sexual pairing on the show to root for in order to find it worth watching. NOT true. Not for me. I'm quite content to watch a show where NO ONE hooks up romantically onscreen. Especially not the main characters.

I'll save the rest of my rant for the ship discussion thread (or one could simply go and read what I've already said there), but I wanted to make it abundantly clear that I am NOT watching Stargate to see the characters "hook up".

derrickh
August 20th, 2005, 08:23 AM
Say what? Hello? She pulled the knife on him, remember? If he hit, she'd hit him back and she CAN hit.


He took the knife away from her like it was a toy. He was never in any real danger from Teyla, that much was obvious. You think for a second that Ronon was scared into thinking 'oh no, I better not be bad because Teyla will hurt me'? Nope. That little display by Teyla was so that she could continue to delude herself into thinking that she can have some effect on how Ronon acts. She can't. she hasn't. and she won't.

During that exchange, you can almost hear Ronon thinking, 'Whatever'. And what was Teyla's big threat? 'Next time I wont be so forgiving'. Thats supposed to scare him. No. What it means is that she just gave him a free pass to do it again. And maybe the next time he uses her the help murder someone, she'll take the giant leap of telling someone else about it. Maybe.



Teyla talks first, then resorts to action (violence) only if necessary. She's the leader of her people and if she used violence first, well, she wouldn't last long. I'm not sure where you get the idea that she likes her men 'dangerous.'


Nope. Thats not how Teyla acts. Last season she fought with the security officer because he accused her of being a spy. He ACCUSED her of something, and she beat him up. Ronon KILLS a man 2 feet away form her and she gives him a lecture?

The idea that Teyla is attracted to 'dangerous' men (aka abusive) is based solely on whats been shown on screen. Her current boyfriend has 1. Tied her up 2. Kidnapped her. 3. Beat her up using a cheap shot during 'training'. 4. Ended negotiations with a knife. 5. Killed a man in cold blood after lying to her.

There are a lot of people on Atlantis. Her own people live a few minutes away. But the guy she decides to spend time with and go shopping with is the one who has treated her worse than anyone else on the planet? Great judgment Teyla.




If this were BSG, I'd give some credence to such a theory, but Teyla a battered woman? Uh uh.

You may be right. BSG probably would be more upfront about the subject and not try to paint this as a cute relationship. Maybe the writers on SG:A are sneaking this stuff into the show to see how far they can go. Maybe it's all subtext that they didnt ever plan. Doesn't really matter, because whats on the screen is a woman in an abusive relationship.

D

FoolishPleasure
August 20th, 2005, 08:39 AM
It's worth considering what McKay has been through with his science team, too.
You make a good point. There has to be a huge amount of guilt rumbling around Rodney's brain. He mentions wanting to win the Nobel Prize (the McKay ego), but he does mention not wanting people to die for nothing (guilt?).

Poor Rodney. He so needs a big squishy hug. :D

Ye gads. . I didn't mention Zelenka previously. Why the heck is he not a reg?

Did my eyes deceive me? Did I not see the German woman scientist again this week?

Southern Red: As another one of those "mature female" sci-fi fans, I see where you are coming from. I really get turned off with the, "Oh, aren't those two half-dressed characters so HOT together!" factor. Which is why I'm drawn to the Teyla/Ronon angle - while Teyla was originally the dull "hot bod", the interaction with Ronon can bring a different aspect to her. They have so much in common - they can be INTERESTING without being just HOT looking together (did you notice she didn't dress "skimpy" this episode?). And I do see something with the Shep/Weir angle as well. Not because they are "Oh, so HOT", but because they have care, respect AND conflict with each other.

For characters to be "shipped". .(not that any WILL be), they have to be interesting, and have a purpose for the "ship". Two hot looking actors together "ain't gonna cut it".

smushybird
August 20th, 2005, 08:42 AM
What would be wrong with a slow buildup to a romantic relationship? How about the fact that I, for one, don't see any sexual chemistry between Weir and Sheppard? And while I'm sure you didn't intend it, your comment implies, to me, that "mature women" somehow need a romantic element in the show in order to find the show worth watching. Now, while that may be true for you, I doubt that it's true for ALL women, regardless of their maturity level. I watch for the PLOTS, not to see two characters making goo-goo eyes at each other and eventually shagging. If I want that, I'll watch soap operas, thank you, not an action-oriented scifi series.

I'll chime in that I don't see any sexual chemistry between Weir and Sheppard, either. There have been one or two scenes where I've sensed that some of the writers want to push the two of them in that direction, and those moments have felt a bit forced. Weir and Sheppard work better together when they're butting heads or when she's relaxed and real (which isn't frequent enough) and they can be friends.

I don't need the romantic element either, to enjoy a show like Atlantis. I'm 42 (which I'm assuming most people consider mature :D) and I've never been a big fan of love stories, unless they're really unconventional. They seldom are. I've said here before that I would hate to see Atlantis become a soap opera. Once again - please, writers, don't go in that direction.

And I like the science yimmer yammer, too. :D
Ok, and the cute guys. ;)

creed462
August 20th, 2005, 08:45 AM
McKay will probly start getting less arogrant. He needed the defeat to develope him.

The2ndQuest
August 20th, 2005, 08:58 AM
A pretty good ep overall. I think Caldwell has had his best scenes so far in his brief appearances in this episode and I was really digging the interaction between Teyla and Dex.


However, there were a few lines of dialogue I just could not understand what was being said no matter how many times I replayed it on my Tivo, anyone want to fill me in?

Dex: "anyone believes he should be avenged...("youram"? "noram"?)

Shep: "I'm sure you can do - if you ("really want to try"?)

Gargen
August 20th, 2005, 09:01 AM
McKay blew up 5/6 of the solar system but chances are the other planets were uninhabitated


yea the chances of more than one inhabited planet in a solar system is very unlikely

not so ancient
August 20th, 2005, 09:01 AM
Doesn't really matter, because whats on the screen is a woman in an abusive relationship.

While you may have personal or professional insight into battered women, you are projecting onto Teyla what is simply not there, and in fact, laughable, to the rest of us. You've failed to convincingly explain it. This obsession with Teyla being somehow battered and dominated by Dex is, really, rather....disturbing.

jckfan55
August 20th, 2005, 09:04 AM
Very well done. I can see them slowly taking Mckay down by notches. Last week perfect strangers deconstructed him and this week his ego takes a beating but only after it had risen to gargantuan proportions.
I have to say I wanted to kick McKay several times. The way he abuses poor Zelenka. I give the man props for continuing to work with him and being gracious about it.
I also love what they did with Teyla and Ronon. I Love how Ronon just shot the guy with no preamble. I never did get all the speeches people tend to make before they kill you. It was nice to see them close ranks over a secret. It provides basis for future drama and dama is good.

I still can't get over McKay's ego. Just how does one man get so confident and presumptuous? He hasn't saved the world the number of times Carter has and yet he has the ego of a man who's saved several galaxies. Amazing really.

What you said. Weir will be less likely to trust McKay's assertions in the future.

prion
August 20th, 2005, 09:30 AM
He took the knife away from her like it was a toy. He was never in any real danger from Teyla, that much was obvious. You think for a second that Ronon was scared into thinking 'oh no, I better not be bad because Teyla will hurt me'? Nope. That little display by Teyla was so that she could continue to delude herself into thinking that she can have some effect on how Ronon acts. She can't. she hasn't. and she won't.

Teyla is the last person on Atlantis who is deluded…. ;)


Nope. Thats not how Teyla acts. Last season she fought with the security officer because he accused her of being a spy. He ACCUSED her of something, and she beat him up. Ronon KILLS a man 2 feet away form her and she gives him a lecture?

Well, he didn’t call her a Wraith spy either. Two different situations. He explained the situation, which she understood, but only to a degree (remember, we’re in a different galaxy, no books of etiquette there).


The idea that Teyla is attracted to 'dangerous' men (aka abusive) is based solely on whats been shown on screen. Her current boyfriend has 1. Tied her up 2. Kidnapped her. 3. Beat her up using a cheap shot during 'training'. 4. Ended negotiations with a knife. 5. Killed a man in cold blood after lying to her.

Whoa whoa whoa (to quote Sheppard). Back up a sec. Boyfriend??? Ah, hello?? He’s not her boyfriend. Friend, but NOT boyfriend.


There are a lot of people on Atlantis. Her own people live a few minutes away. But the guy she decides to spend time with and go shopping with is the one who has treated her worse than anyone else on the planet? Great judgment Teyla.

They’re not shopping. They’re on a trading/negotiating mission. A heckuva lot different.


You may be right. BSG probably would be more upfront about the subject and not try to paint this as a cute relationship. Maybe the writers on SG:A are sneaking this stuff into the show to see how far they can go. Maybe it's all subtext that they didnt ever plan. Doesn't really matter, because whats on the screen is a woman in an abusive relationship.

I have to agree with someone else. This sounds like projecting (like someone else who said that Sheppard was pretty much a criminal because his hair touched his ears, etc. etc.).

For one thing, which you’ve overlooked, Teyla is not even in a relationship. In fact, none of them are! Rodney’s the only guy who’s gotten a date and well, after blowing up a planet or six, wonder if that relationships is still puttering along…

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2005, 09:38 AM
Dex: "anyone believes he should be avenged...("youram"? "noram"?)

Dex: Anyone believes he should be avenged... here I am.

Giantevilhead
August 20th, 2005, 09:42 AM
The Daedalus was about to withstand quite a few blasts from the Ancient superweapon, that either means that the weapon wasn't nearly as powerful as they made it out to be or that the Daedalus shields are very powerful.

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2005, 09:48 AM
Derrick, while you may be of the opinion that Dex is violent scum and Teyla is a battered woman, keep in mind that it's YOUR opinion and is not proven fact. What you see in the ep may "prove" it to you, but what you see as evidence doesn't necessarily add up the same way for everyone. The fact that most everyone who has replied to you has said that they don't interpret things the same way you do says... well, it says it's a wide world with a lot of different interpretations of the same things. *shrug*

I still have to admit a certain amount of shock to see you reading the two characters in such an extremely negative and nasty way. Even looking back on it, I have trouble seeing it the way you do. My feelings about Dex and about Teyla are so inherently different from yours that it's hard for me to wrap my mind around something so... different. But hey, if that's the way you want to see them, it should be interesting to see how the rest of the season turns out... for you.

whatswiththehairtealc
August 20th, 2005, 09:53 AM
yea the chances of more than one inhabited planet in a solar system is very unlikely


Well........
apparently non of you are worried about space nats!!!!! not to mention the space snails which never did anything to you!!

damm all of you!!!!!!

starfox
August 20th, 2005, 10:08 AM
To the Teyla-is-a-battered-woman-angle: WTF???????



Nope. Thats not how Teyla acts. Last season she fought with the security officer because he accused her of being a spy. He ACCUSED her of something, and she beat him up. Ronon KILLS a man 2 feet away form her and she gives him a lecture?

Teyla understood why he killed the guy. She even says that she might have done the same. She gets it. Not ratting him out to people who would condemn him isn't a sign of acquiescence, it's a sign of her not being a hypocrite.
She punched Bates because he accused her of being worse than this Kell character than Ronon just shot. Ronon killed a guy she felt probably deserved to die. She was pissed because he lied to her, not because he killed the guy. And her "I will not be so understanding?" The tremble in her voice was her restraining from hitting him.



The idea that Teyla is attracted to 'dangerous' men (aka abusive) is based solely on whats been shown on screen. Her current boyfriend has 1. Tied her up 2. Kidnapped her. 3. Beat her up using a cheap shot during 'training'. 4. Ended negotiations with a knife. 5. Killed a man in cold blood after lying to her.

Hold up. Boyfriend? Okay, there were a few glances that could have been construed as flirtatious at the beginning of "Condemned", but during this episode she does not treat Ronon as someone she is attracted to. If anything, he's like an annoying angsty teenager she has to babysit. From the time he puts that knife into the table to the time they get back to Atlantis she's pissed at him. And she's the one who told Ronon's war buddy that there was nothing going on there.


There are a lot of people on Atlantis. Her own people live a few minutes away. But the guy she decides to spend time with and go shopping with is the one who has treated her worse than anyone else on the planet? Great judgment Teyla.

He asked to go with her. She didn't beg to have him along. Taking him was a friendly gesture to a teammate, an effort to keep him from going stir-crazy. And after this ep, I doubt she'll be doing such a thing in the near future.

This idea of Teyla as an abused woman is nothing more than your projections. There's nothing there to support the idea.

veneticuss
August 20th, 2005, 10:38 AM
Well, the episode was fine. The action scenes didnt catch me so much, but it was ok.


ad derick: Well I also interpret it a completely different way, and i must say, i'm quite surprised to see someone who sees it this way, but w/e, there's freedom of speech here right? :P

Linzi
August 20th, 2005, 10:48 AM
I'll chime in that I don't see any sexual chemistry between Weir and Sheppard, either. There have been one or two scenes where I've sensed that some of the writers want to push the two of them in that direction, and those moments have felt a bit forced. Weir and Sheppard work better together when they're butting heads or when she's relaxed and real (which isn't frequent enough) and they can be friends.

I don't need the romantic element either, to enjoy a show like Atlantis. I'm 42 (which I'm assuming most people consider mature :D) and I've never been a big fan of love stories, unless they're really unconventional. They seldom are. I've said here before that I would hate to see Atlantis become a soap opera. Once again - please, writers, don't go in that direction.

And I like the science yimmer yammer, too. :D
Ok, and the cute guys. ;)
I have to say I agree with you here.
I'm 42 (nice to know there are other 'mature' people that post here, though I don't feel mature!) and though I could see chemistry in SG1 between certain characters I really don't see any sexual chemistry between Sheppard and Weir, but they have a good dynamic together, especially when they disagree, and they care deeply for eachother.
I don't want to see romance particularly, I've never been a fan of romance stories unless they are exceptionally executed, and I love the science stuff and particularly the action! Romance is for fan fiction. My personal opinion is major characters will never get together. It has never happened in S.G.1, don't see why it will on SGA.

Southern Red
August 20th, 2005, 10:51 AM
.

Again, just because SOME feel that romance adds to a show doesn't mean that ALL must feel that. I resent the idea that as a woman, I need to have a sexual pairing on the show to root for in order to find it worth watching. NOT true. Not for me. I'm quite content to watch a show where NO ONE hooks up romantically onscreen. Especially not the main characters.

I'll save the rest of my rant for the ship discussion thread (or one could simply go and read what I've already said there), but I wanted to make it abundantly clear that I am NOT watching Stargate to see the characters "hook up".

First of all. "hook up" is a phrase that in my wildest dreams I would never use in any context. Same for "shagging' which I find repulsive. I am talking about romance, not sex. Not many of us want to see sex. That's why I don't like Battlestar Galactica. It would be unrealistic for a group of people to live and work together and there not be some pairing off. I am amazed that you can see the chemistry between Teyla and Ronon and not see it between John and Elizabeth which was like an anvil to me right from the pilot. But be that as it may, I too would rather see no ship than see them screw it up by tossing them in bed together. I was simply trying to point out that there's a growing group of women like me who used to watch Sci Fi just because our husbands or whatever did who are now starting to pay attention. I think the people who are interested in ratings will start to listen to our suggestions.

fatesfortune
August 20th, 2005, 10:55 AM
Well I'm not even going to get into the teyla is a battered woman discussion, but I did see earlier on the thread that some people didn't understand why the wraith ship wreakage was still floating around the planet and hadn't fallen, so I wanted to explain that really quick. If the wraith ships were orbiting the planet when attacking, they probebly would have been in a stable orbit, so when they were destroyed, they would have stayed in that stable orbit. The reason they haven't crashed into the planet over the past 10,000 years is the same reason why the moon hasn't crashed into the earth. For every amount of distance that gravity pulls the object down towards the planet, the object is moving an equal amount of distance to the side, so the object stays on a stable course moving around the planet.

Southern Red
August 20th, 2005, 11:02 AM
[QUOTE=FoolishPleasure As another one of those "mature female" sci-fi fans, I see where you are coming from. I really get turned off with the, "Oh, aren't those two half-dressed characters so HOT together!" factor. Which is why I'm drawn to the Teyla/Ronon angle - while Teyla was originally the dull "hot bod", the interaction with Ronon can bring a different aspect to her. They have so much in common - they can be INTERESTING without being just HOT looking together (did you notice she didn't dress "skimpy" this episode?). And I do see something with the Shep/Weir angle as well. Not because they are "Oh, so HOT", but because they have care, respect AND conflict with each other.

For characters to be "shipped". .(not that any WILL be), they have to be interesting, and have a purpose for the "ship". Two hot looking actors together "ain't gonna cut it".[/QUOTE]

Thank you. You defended me so much better than I did myself. I forgot to mention the scantily clad angle which is what some people need to see ship. Rubbing two hot bodies together to me is insulting our intelligence. I did notice that Teyla was dressed more ladylike and I applaude the choice. I think a true good caring relationship can develop between Teyla and Ronon but not based on appearance. It's fine with me if the Shep/Weir thing continues as it has been. I'm in no hurry. And once again I think Joe and Torri are doing a phenomenal job.

Lord You
August 20th, 2005, 11:04 AM
I don't see any sexual tension between Teyla/Ronon or John/Elizabeth. There's more of a possibility between Teyla/John than John/Elizabeth, but nothing comes close to actual shipping. Can't a man and a woman be friends without any sexual undertones? You people are so paranoid!

derrickh
August 20th, 2005, 11:22 AM
While you may have personal or professional insight into battered women, you are projecting onto Teyla what is simply not there, and in fact, laughable, to the rest of us. You've failed to convincingly explain it. This obsession with Teyla being somehow battered and dominated by Dex is, really, rather....disturbing.

I don't mind that many people dont agree with me. It makes for good discussion. But to imply that none of the signs are there is what's laughable. I named no less than 5 things that would normally be huge red flags. These weren't interpretations, in fact, many were plot points. Lets go through them, and if something isnt true, then please correct me.

1. Ronon bound Teyla against her will. That happened. Can't get around it.
2. He kidnapped her/held her hostage. Did I misinterpret that part in 'Runner'?
3. He hit her using a cheap shot during training. Thats a bs move no matter what galaxy you're from. Sheppard called him on it immediately but Teyla 'let it go' him.
4. He planted a knife in a table during a negotiation for seeds. Seeds. He wasn't even really part of the negotiation.
5. He lied to Teyla, put her life in danger, and killed a man in front of her.

Which of those things didn't happen? I'm actually sugar coating his actions.

Now, if you knew a woman who was hanging out out with a guy that did those things to her, would you sit back and say, they make a cute couple or they have 'chemistry'?

What I don't get...what really puzzles me, Is why so many viewers are cutting Ronon so much slack? Is it because he's a hunk? Is it because TPTB say he's a good guy? or are they the ones projecting and seeing stuff that hasnt been shown on screen?

SG:A is a tv show. A good one, too. And I don't see any reason to overlook what happens on screen because it doesn't jibe with what some people want to see.

D

Shipperahoy
August 20th, 2005, 11:49 AM
Derrickh I think that the reason many people feel your accusations against Ronan are kind of off base is because this is a science fiction show. What you don't seem to be taking into consideration is the context. If this were a regular relationship in real life and a guy kidnapped a girl, bound her, etc. then yes...that would be a sign of something wrong. Very wrong. However, this is a science fiction show where there is constant danger and the characters are defending themselves against something or other every episode. I doubt in a real life relationship that the man in it would have met the girl for the first time on an alien planet after being on the run from a vicious alien for 7 years and having been completely alone for those years execpt for the various Wraith killings that he's done. At least I would sincerely hope not. ;)

strivaria
August 20th, 2005, 11:51 AM
The idea that Teyla is attracted to 'dangerous' men (aka abusive) is based solely on whats been shown on screen. Her current boyfriend has 1. Tied her up 2. Kidnapped her. 3. Beat her up using a cheap shot during 'training'. 4. Ended negotiations with a knife. 5. Killed a man in cold blood after lying to her.


Um... those first two items, are you talking about Runner? Because Dex tied up and essentially kidnapped her AND Shep... so does that make John the back up boytoy when Teyla's unavailable? Seriously... because there's no more romantic relationship between Teyla and Ronan than there is between Ronan and John. Whatever interaction she and Ronan share at the moment is tenative friends and two strangers in a strange land really. As for point 3, he would have taken the cheap shot regardless of who he was fighting.... all that time spent doing anything to survive would probably do that to a person. This also applies to point 5 as he'd have used anyone available to get to the traitor, Teyla just happened to be the one used this time.

I'd have to see a lot more of her knuckling under to him to consider the battered woman idea. As of right now, can't say that there's enough there to support it in my opinion.

coolove
August 20th, 2005, 11:53 AM
The whole "Teyla is a suffering from battered woman syndrome" is really the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. I've spent years studying this kind of thing in women studies and I can tell you there are no parallels what-so-ever. I've worked with women and heard their stories of being abused.. To suggest something so outlandish is both ignorant and laughable.

Schrodinger82
August 20th, 2005, 11:57 AM
Meh. I found this episode to be somewhat contrived and forced.

Obligatory Spoiler:

I really don't believe that MacKay would be that dumb. "Hey, I know, we'll run it at only 50% next time! That's still the power of a dozen ZPMs!" I mean, I didn't even realize that they were running it at 100% before that. Hey Rodney, you ever hear of baby steps? Do you really need to start off right away by running your equiptment at a dozen times more powerful than the most powerful energy source known to man?

I also have a hard time believing that Weir wouldn't order John to order Rodney to abort and look over the data once Zelenka came in with his report. Seriously guys, what's the rush? You can't wait a few days to look over new data before running an experiment that the smartest people in the universe could do? And yes, I realize that the whole idea was Rodney's arrogance, but there's a fine, fine line between arrogance and insane. Guess which side Rodney was on?

Finally, they make mention of having back and forth conversations between Earth and SGA. (The military is interested in this new tech, the scientists next of kin have been notified, etc.).

Now, how exactly is this possible? Do they just just casually use the ZPM every time they need to send a message back home? If so, than it's kind of a let down to do something like that implied and off screen seeing as how so much attention was given to it last year.

Did the military guy have a chance to go back to Earth and back in the time between when the episode starts and stops? If so, then exactly how much time passed in the episode from beginning to end?

Did the team just use a subspace radio of sorts? If so, then why the heck didn't they have one last year? I don't think they've made any major break throughs in intergalactic communications since the first time they left for Atlantis, so I would have liked it if they actually bothered to explain that.

etc., etc., etc.

not so ancient
August 20th, 2005, 12:03 PM
The Daedalus was about to withstand quite a few blasts from the Ancient superweapon, that either means that the weapon wasn't nearly as powerful as they made it out to be or that the Daedalus shields are very powerful.

The Daedalus was able to withstand some weapon blasts, yes,

The problem was, the Daedalus, and the whole freaking solar system, could not withstand the explosion from the overload of the Arcturus.

Little boom vs. something on the order of a small nova.

Big difference.

derrickh
August 20th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Um... those first two items, are you talking about Runner? Because Dex tied up and essentially kidnapped her AND Shep... so does that make John the back up boytoy when Teyla's unavailable? Seriously... because there's no more romantic relationship between Teyla and Ronan than there is between Ronan and John. Whatever interaction she and Ronan share at the moment is tenative friends and two strangers in a strange land really. As for point 3, he would have taken the cheap shot regardless of who he was fighting.... all that time spent doing anything to survive would probably do that to a person. This also applies to point 5 as he'd have used anyone available to get to the traitor, Teyla just happened to be the one used this time.

I'd have to see a lot more of her knuckling under to him to consider the battered woman idea. As of right now, can't say that there's enough there to support it in my opinion.

If Ronon and Sheppard had a nice quiet talk in Shepperd's bedroom after the beating, and if Sheppard and Ronon went shopping together, then you might have a point. But those are things that Teyla did with him. As for them being just friends, I don't think I'm the only one seeing the path that this relationship is taking. The guy in the bar picked up on it immediatly when they walked in together. People on this board have said they look cute together and have great chemistry. The 'they're just friends' mantra seems like a prelude to 'friends with benefits'.

Your point seems to be that Ronon did those things to Teyla, but he wouldv'e done them to anyone else, too. So, that makes it okay? Really? And because they're in space, that excuses his actions, too. When will Ronon have to take resposibility for anything he does and not have people make excuses for him? He tricked Teyla to kill a man, but it's okay because they're in space. He held two team members hostage, but it's okay becuase they're in another galaxy and Ronon had it rough for a few years.

And when does Teyla have to take responsibility for her actions? Ronon undermines her negotiations with a weapon, and she doesnt do more than raise her voice. He Murders a man in cold blood. And she keeps it from the rest of her team. At best, she's an enabler.

Morals are Morals, no matter where you are.

D

MarshAngel
August 20th, 2005, 12:44 PM
You make some good points. It was a bit contrived and Mckay was definitely bordeing on the insane but I think that's part of the point. As he said he wanted the sacrifice made to be worth it and in his typical way goes way too far. But for clarification. Apparently with the ZPM they have enough power to open a wormhole to Earth if they need to but they can't go through it because the SGC doesn't have the power to send them back. So they can communicate but they can't travel.

The whole point of going was to be able to learn something to help Earth so once they had the power to do so they'd have begun sending back data anyway. I'm guessing it's something of a high priority. If they don't survive, what they learned definitely has to; so eat away at the ZPM if they must.

not so ancient
August 20th, 2005, 12:46 PM
I don't mind that many people dont agree with me. It makes for good discussion. But to imply that none of the signs are there is what's laughable. I named no less than 5 things that would normally be huge red flags. These weren't interpretations, in fact, many were plot points. Lets go through them, and if something isnt true, then please correct me.

1. Ronon bound Teyla against her will. That happened. Can't get around it.

Um, he did the same to Sheppard. O noes!!1!! Sheppard must be Ronon's battered boyfriend. What a terrible twisted love triangle!

What happened to Teyla was the same as what happened to Sheppard. It was not motivated by sexual dominance of a man over a woman, but rather a commando-style military tactic and Teyla's gender had zip to do with it.


2. He kidnapped her/held her hostage. Did I misinterpret that part in 'Runner'?

At that point it was a bartering arrangement - Sheppard comes back with the help he promised, Teyla goes free. I don't think Sheppard would have left Teyla without a strong notion that Dex would not abuse her. By that time they had talked with Dex and seen who he was, what he was. If Dex wanted them dead, or, to say, rape them and torture them, he had plenty of opportunity to do so when he first took them captive. That wasn't what he was about. And Sheppard knows: Teyla can take care of herself.


3. He hit her using a cheap shot during training. Thats a bs move no matter what galaxy you're from. Sheppard called him on it immediately but Teyla 'let it go' him.

Sheppard practice fights one way, Teyla another, Dex yet another. Sheppard and Teyla had to find common ground for their practice fights, and Teyla and Dex did too. If he had wanted to hurt her, he could have, and Sheppard would have been too late to stop it.


4. He planted a knife in a table during a negotiation for seeds. Seeds. He wasn't even really part of the negotiation.

True. And that was an act of aggression on Teyla's behalf, not toward Teyla, so I wonder why you would make a statement that so clearly undermines your already flimsy argument.


5. He lied to Teyla, put her life in danger, and killed a man in front of her.

Yep. He did. And that was an act of aggression toward Teyla how? Uh, not at all. Had Teyla been attacked for his actions, he could have, and I think would have, stopped it.

Dex had his reasons. Which, ultimately, Teyla understood, without fully agreeing with them. Oh, and then? She pulled a knife on him. O noes!!!1! Is Ronan a battered boyfriend? Please, rush to his defense. Please!

Your 'point' such as it is is that Ronon Dex abuses Teyla Emmagan and she puts up with it.

Your point really does fail. And I'm being generous with just calling it a failure because I am quite certain Gateworld's mods were to step in if I said what I really thought of this rubbish.

I'm disturbed by arguments like yours. As a woman, I want issues like rape, battering, inequality, bigotry and oppression to be taken seriously. Every time someone makes a completely crapola argument like yours, and demands to be taken seriously, you just cheapen the realm of discussion so that serious and real problems are treated as more garbage. It's a cry of wolf, and it's really, really not a good thing.

So, please, don't make an outcry on Teyla's behalf. Because she would be the first person to kick your @ss from here to Pegasus and back again if you dared imply she is a weak-willed, emotionally disturbed woman incapable of taking care of herself.


Which of those things didn't happen? I'm actually sugar coating his actions.

Oh, not much sugar there. I'd say more like venom.


Now, if you knew a woman who was hanging out out with a guy that did those things to her, would you sit back and say, they make a cute couple or they have 'chemistry'?

I trust a woman like Teyla to take care of herself, and I see no signs that she's broken, unwell, frightened, not making good judgments, lacking self-esteem, lacking other options, lacking resources, or in any way incapable of managing her own life.

She's not sexually involved with Ronon, they don't have kids together, they're not economically tied together, so there's no bond between them other than short term work together as colleagues on Atlantis. If she didn't want to work with him, for any reason, she could simply tell Weir and Sheppard that she preferred assignment to another away team, or to return to her people on Athos, or any number of other options.


What I don't get...what really puzzles me, Is why so many viewers are cutting Ronon so much slack? Is it because he's a hunk? Is it because TPTB say he's a good guy? or are they the ones projecting and seeing stuff that hasnt been shown on screen?

Oh, I think you're not someone to talk about what hasn't been shown onscreen. Really. You don't want to go there.


SG:A is a tv show. A good one, too. And I don't see any reason to overlook what happens on screen because it doesn't jibe with what some people want to see.

[mod snip - it's really not on to pschoanalyse other posters on the basis of their opinions of a TV show. cheers.]

TheGreatCatOfRe
August 20th, 2005, 12:48 PM
I was looking forward to this episode, and as it turns out, I was correct in doing so. This was a great episode.

Best quote:

Weir: You destroyed three quarters of a solar system!
McKay: Look. Five sixths...but its not an exact science.
Weir: Rodney! Can you Give your ego a rest for one second?!

In fact, the entire scene with Weir yelling at McKay in the background was hillarious.

A pity we never got the power source to work right.

Oh, and I have to mention that I am continually impressed with the quality of the Visual Effects and props/scenery. I always love the cool little computer interfaces. And the Big Bad Zero Point generator looked neat as well.
I agree ref the quality of the cg. That first shot when they zoon out of the stargate is fantastic.

PsychoPenguin
August 20th, 2005, 12:51 PM
Hmmm, it's hard to get a feel for the episode consensus over here--what with the various debates taking place--but speaking for myself, I enjoyed this episode. Plot holes aside (And hey, this is "Stargate." Be it "SG1" or "Atlantis," it's the same PTB at work, so there are *always* plot holes you can drive a eighteen wheeler through.), I was impressed with this ep for doing two--count 'em, *two*---things I'm not used to seeing these writers attempt:

One: Unity of theme. Both the A plot and the B plot were about friendship, trust, and betrayals of trust. There was an actual parallel being drawn between Sheppard and McKay's long term friendship and Teyla and Dex's newly forming one. Both relationships were dealt blows that could have been fatal. Yet the relationships were saved, thanks to a well-built understanding of each other in one case, and what appears to be Teyla's willingness to cut the new guy some slack in another. Both plot threads were then "pulled" to tie together, with Teyla and Dex arriving just in time to hear Weir chewing McKay out. A very, very nice touch, I thought. It highlighted the connecting theme, without hitting us over the head with that everpresent writing threat, the "anvil of symbolism." Again, very, very nice.

As a result, I'm left feeling that even if the writing wasn't tight in terms of plot, I'm willing to overlook it since it actually containted a true thematic structure--something I don't think I've *ever* seen before with this particular PTB. Thus, I give them points for that. Definite cookie for effort here.

Two (And it's a *BIG* TWO): We actually got to see emotional payoff happen on one of these shows! The final scene between McKay and Sheppard, whether you felt the emotions came across genuinely or not, was a major step for this franchise. Finally, somebody acknowledges that "bad things happened" that should have real, emotional consequences and shows the characters actually concerned about what those results may be. If the apology hadn't been in this ep, I could have accepted it. (Hey, "Atlantis" or no, it's still "Stargate." They never give us this stuff.) But actually seeing it--man, I nearly cheered!

Now, if they can only do that on a consistent basis, and in a way that references prior interactions, I'll feel like there's some actual character arcing going on...*hint, hint, hint*

(Come on, guys, you've properly executed two areas of true writerly skill here. It's time to up the ante and go for three! :) )

Buzz Lightyear
August 20th, 2005, 01:13 PM
1. Ronon bound Teyla against her will. That happened. Can't get around it.
2. He kidnapped her/held her hostage. Did I misinterpret that part in 'Runner'?
3. He hit her using a cheap shot during training. Thats a bs move no matter what galaxy you're from. Sheppard called him on it immediately but Teyla 'let it go' him.
4. He planted a knife in a table during a negotiation for seeds. Seeds. He wasn't even really part of the negotiation.
5. He lied to Teyla, put her life in danger, and killed a man in front of her.

Which of those things didn't happen? I'm actually sugar coating his actions.

All of these things did happen but your extreme leap of logic to link them to Teyla acting like a battered woman is the part that is difficult to support. You're really grasping at straws here.


What I don't get...what really puzzles me, Is why so many viewers are cutting Ronon so much slack? Is it because he's a hunk? Is it because TPTB say he's a good guy? or are they the ones projecting and seeing stuff that hasnt been shown on screen?

SG:A is a tv show. A good one, too. And I don't see any reason to overlook what happens on screen because it doesn't jibe with what some people want to see.

Projecting and seeing stuff that hasn't been shown on screen? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

From what I've read on the forums so far, no one is really cutting Ronon any slack. We just don't know enough about him yet, good or bad.

watcher652
August 20th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Oh, I loved this episode! This was such a great character piece for the primary Atlantis team.

As usual, my random ramblings without reading the other comments.

- I loved the exchange between Sheppard, McKay and Zelenka. The fun part was that flyboy Sheppard obviously knew what McKay and Zelenka were talking about. John does the flyboy thing so well, for a second Rodney forgot that John actually does know what Rodney and Radek are talking about. It’s nice to see Sheppard not hiding his intelligence.

- Radek got a haircut. Looks good. Uh, what was that line about Radek having the stomach flu? What was that all about? Inside joke?

- You just knew this new power source wasn’t going to work out because if it did, that would be the end of the series!

- Just as you just knew Collins was a dead man when you saw a scientist we’ve never seen before goes into a closed chamber. I don’t know how many people were lost during the Siege, but we’ve seen more scientists die than military personnel on this show. Since the Siege, we’ve lost 2 scientists on the Daedalus and now Collins. But we haven’t lost any military personnel. Atlantis is not kind to scientists.

- Aw, only one scene with Beckett. Oh, well.

- I loved when Rodney’s voice broke when he said he was going to have to live with Collins’ death for the rest of his life. Those are the little touches that make the characters so real.

- Poor Rodney’s file with Heightmeyer must be the largest she’s ever had to compile. The man has so many issues. You know he feels responsible for the death of every scientist.

- That was a heart-rending speech Rodney gave to John. He is so sure he’s right and he wants so badly to be right that he asks John, as a friend, as someone he respects, to trust him and speak on his behalf to Elizabeth.

- Thank you for the Manhattan Project clue. Now I know why the episode is called Trinity. That was the code name of the first atomic bomb test.

- I loved how Elizabeth and Caldwell are fighting over the issue and John puts in the deciding factor. Not because he believes in the military and scientific value of the new power source. But because he believes in Rodney.

- I appreciate that while Caldwell represents the military mindset, he’s not somebody who’s unthinkingly by the book, the military is the only way. He explains his reasons for his beliefs. He told Weir that of course he wants the weapon, who wouldn’t? But the power source could be used for so much more if proven to be feasible.

- Did Caldwell have too much faith in Rodney, maybe because he saw Rodney help save the day in Intruder?

- Elizabeth is so right about Rodney. Sometimes Rodney does need to be saved from himself. But when John added his support behind Rodney, Elizabeth just couldn’t say no. She should have. She knows Rodney as a person, not just as a scientist. She should have trusted her own feelings.

- “I won’t let you down.” Rodney assures John that his trust wasn’t misplaced. This is not Rodney trying to win the Nobel prize, or saving two galaxies from the Wraith or having a never ending power source. Rodney can’t believe that his science will let him down. It’s not all about the science for Rodney now. Now it’s about John and his faith in Rodney. This is personal.

- What is the rush with the testing? Why can’t Rodney go back and look at what Radek came up with?

- As an engineer, maybe Radek didn’t have the all-consuming faith in physics that Rodney seems to have. Radek went thru the evidence and saw what it meant, even if it went against the known laws of physics. He was more willing to accept something he didn’t understand. Rodney thought he understood the physics and his faith in the order of things couldn’t be shaken. Not even when Radek asked him as a friend, not as a fellow scientist.

- Radek is a very good friend, because Rodney publicly called him stupid in Duet and now in Trinity. But Radek still seems to stand by Rodney. It’s one thing to be berated in the confines of the lab in front of the science team Rodney workds with. He yells at everyone. It's to be expected. But it’s another to be put down in front of a crowd of outsiders who don't see how Rodney treats his team.

- Radek is right, again. In Duet, Rodney had the excuse of having Cadman in his brain distracting him and having him make mistakes in his calculations. This time, Rodney has no one else to blame but himself. Rodney’s view of the universe has just been shaken.

- Why is Rodney so sure with being right here? That he knows more than the Ancients? Although he says that he doesn’t, that he’s taking advantage of hindsight and not having a war over his head lets him see the answer more clearly. Does the way he’s behaving have anything to do with Duet and how out of control he was? Is Rodney trying to show that he is in control, that he doesn’t make mistakes like he did when Cadman was there to distract him? That it was Cadman and not his own inadequacies that led to the mistakes in his calculations?

- Why didn't Elizabeth order Rodney to stop? She heard Radek's evidence. There's no rush to get the test done. Even John had doubts. There was no reason to let Rodney have his way. Rodney would have stopped if Elizabeth had ordered him to.

- The anecdote John had about pilots unable to admit that they’re wrong until it’s too late and they died because they couldn’t see that they were wrong was great. Only John could have gotten thru to Rodney at that point. Thank goodness Rodney finally heard what John was saying. When Rodney realized that what was going to happen was also going to happen to John.

- When Rodney saves the day, he does so in a big way. When he screws up, he destroys a solar system. Isn’t that going to affect the systems around that system?

- Did we need to have the Daedalus save the day? I can see why Caldwell wanted to see for himself how the testing was going to turn out. But did he have to sneak around to do that? Why couldn’t he just say he wanted to see for himself?

- I loved the decision to have Elizabeth yelling at Rodney, but in the background, not right in front of us. I think it would have been too painful to have that right in our faces. It was just like when your mother told you to go to your room because she was going to give your brother a major dress down. She wasn’t going to do it front of you but you heard everything anyway.

- And that speech at the end when Rodney asks John to forgive him. How he apologized to everyone else first but save John to the end because John’s forgiveness is the most important. Rodney had asked John personally to stand by him and Rodney had let John down. If Rodney can’t make it right with John, then what does it matter that he can make it right with everyone else? I almost wanted to cry. David Hewlett is so good!

- And John doesn’t forgive him, not right away. But he tells Rodney, without saying it explicitly, that even with this major screw up, that their friendship is still there. Battered, but it will survive.

- I’m glad we got to see this apology. Because I really wanted to see John apologize to Rodney at the end of Sanctuary, but we didn’t get one. John didn’t trust Rodney in that case, but Rodney obviously got over it.

- How long will it take for the science team to trust Rodney again?

- How long will it take for Elizabeth to trust her own feelings and not give in to John, Rodney, or the double team of John and Rodney? I don’t think we’ll see her make that same mistake again.

- How long will it take for Rodney to trust himself again?

- Rodney builds a nuclear bomb in grade six. He fixes 2 Genii bombs so they can be used against the Wraith hive ships (what ever happened to bomb 2 anyway?). Now Rodney blows up 5/6 of a solar system with an uncontrolled power source. Maybe Rodney should stick with nuclear bombs.

And, oh, yeah, the B story with Ronon and Teyla was good too. More character stuff. But why are we learning so much more about Ronon than we know about John?

- Although Ronon is so much bigger than Teyla, you can see Teyla can hold her own. Teyla is giving Ronon a lot of slack, because he’s been alone and on the run so long, he doesn’t remember how to be a team player, as he must have known when he was in the military. But Teyla let Ronon make his mistakes only once.

- Teyla tells Ronon that the others would not understand his killing. But I think she’s wrong. I think they would. But they would not have condoned it.

- I’m glad having Ronon is giving Teyla so much more to do. It’s great to see her character being fleshed out.

- Interesting to see how much respect Ronon has for Teyla. For everyone, actually. You’d think he’d be a much harder person after being on the run from the Wraith for 7 years. And he’s a military man and all. But Ronon seems remarkable gentle in some ways, unpredictably hard in others.


This episode was about trust and forgiveness. I love the John and Rodney interaction. It’s always great. Ronon and Teyla have an interesting dynamic going. Now we need to have them pull together as a team

Kudos to the actors, writers, directors and the FX team. An outstanding episode.

Giantevilhead
August 20th, 2005, 01:33 PM
The Daedalus was able to withstand some weapon blasts, yes,

The problem was, the Daedalus, and the whole freaking solar system, could not withstand the explosion from the overload of the Arcturus.

Little boom vs. something on the order of a small nova.

Big difference.
It was supposed to be an Ancient superweapon, it took down an entire Wraith fleet plus it was siphoning enough energy from the power source to prevent a catastrophic overload for a significant of time. The fact that the Daedalus was able to withstand some of those weapon blasts suggests that its shields are very powerful.

strivaria
August 20th, 2005, 01:55 PM
If Ronon and Sheppard had a nice quiet talk in Shepperd's bedroom after the beating,and if Sheppard and Ronon went shopping together, then you might have a point.
Oh for crying out loud, they were training! If Teyla is the warrior woman TPTB wish to make her than I would expect her to give and take no quarter in a sparring match. That she didn't expect such an underhanded move on Ronan's part bothers me only in that it indicates, to me, that she's maybe gotten a little complacent in her time with the Atlantians.

As for what the rest of your comment is implying, do you mean to say that a single woman and a single male must obviously be in a romantic relationship if they spend time together outside of work?! Wow, then that means I must have had quite the harem... what with being a single chick hanging out with my single male friends in their rooms in the barracks and going out downtown to roam the mall with them.

Your point seems to be that Ronon did those things to Teyla, but he wouldv'e done them to anyone else, too. So, that makes it okay? Really?
No, you missed my point. I'm not excusing Ronan's behavior in the least; to paraphrase someone's earlier statement, he's a hot-headed loose cannon with anger management issues. But to take that and say he's abusing Teyla is misguided. At most he abused her trust in him but I cannot see anything in the way of physical or emotional abuse towards her.

And when does Teyla have to take responsibility for her actions? Ronon undermines her negotiations with a weapon, and she doesnt do more than raise her voice. He Murders a man in cold blood. And she keeps it from the rest of her team. At best, she's an enabler.

Morals are Morals, no matter where you are.

D
What was she supposed to do while there at the table, break out the sticks and beat him up? Yes, that's the hallmark of a leader for you - lashing out instead of rational discourse. As for being an enabler by keeping the murder from her teammates, I think she's finally caught on to the fact that the Earth folks are not the wonderous saviours that she first imagined. She's right, Weir and Co. may have taken a less than favorable view of the incident and removed Dex from the team. For Teyla, Dex's actions were quite likely justified considering her reaction to being called a traitor herself. This is Pegasus Galaxy morality at work, not Earth's.

not so ancient
August 20th, 2005, 01:55 PM
It was supposed to be an Ancient superweapon

Um, it was a a new, and incredibly powerful, energy generator, not just a souped up ray gun.

Giantevilhead
August 20th, 2005, 02:05 PM
I was talking about the superweapon connected to the power source, the one that's supposed to be a ground based version of the satellite weapon except that it has a lot more firepower. Seeing how easily the satellite weapon was able to cut through a Hive ship, it is reasonable to assume that the superweapon connected to the power source would be far more powerful, and the fact that Daedalus was able to take a barrage of hits from the weapon suggests that the Daedalus has very powerful shields.

ShadowMaat
August 20th, 2005, 02:36 PM
It would be unrealistic for a group of people to live and work together and there not be some pairing off. I am amazed that you can see the chemistry between Teyla and Ronon and not see it between John and Elizabeth which was like an anvil to me right from the pilot.
I am sick of people saying it'd be "unrealistic" and using that as a justification for any and every ship imaginable. You know what? I think it's "unrealistic" to think that the two main leads MUST get together. There are THOUSANDS of people on Atlantis. Why limit the relationships to JUST the leads? And you know what? I don't care if you're shocked that I can't see chemistry between Shep and Weir. I don't see it and I don't have to justify my opinions to anyone. Well, unless I have the opinion that the show needs more balloon animals. That might require a bit of explanation. :P



I was simply trying to point out that there's a growing group of women like me who used to watch Sci Fi just because our husbands or whatever did who are now starting to pay attention. I think the people who are interested in ratings will start to listen to our suggestions
I shudder at the mere idea of that happening.

Anyway, there's a ship discussion thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=88) chock full of opinions on the merits and hazards of ship. I, for one, won't drag THIS thread any more off topic than it is.

jckfan55
August 20th, 2005, 02:53 PM
To the Teyla-is-a-battered-woman-angle: WTF???????



Teyla understood why he killed the guy. She even says that she might have done the same. She gets it. Not ratting him out to people who would condemn him isn't a sign of acquiescence, it's a sign of her not being a hypocrite.
She punched Bates because he accused her of being worse than this Kell character than Ronon just shot. Ronon killed a guy she felt probably deserved to die. She was pissed because he lied to her, not because he killed the guy. And her "I will not be so understanding?" The tremble in her voice was her restraining from hitting him.




Hold up. Boyfriend? Okay, there were a few glances that could have been construed as flirtatious at the beginning of "Condemned", but during this episode she does not treat Ronon as someone she is attracted to. If anything, he's like an annoying angsty teenager she has to babysit. From the time he puts that knife into the table to the time they get back to Atlantis she's pissed at him. And she's the one who told Ronon's war buddy that there was nothing going on there.



He asked to go with her. She didn't beg to have him along. Taking him was a friendly gesture to a teammate, an effort to keep him from going stir-crazy. And after this ep, I doubt she'll be doing such a thing in the near future.

This idea of Teyla as an abused woman is nothing more than your projections. There's nothing there to support the idea.

For what it's worth, that's just how I read it too.

prion
August 20th, 2005, 02:59 PM
I don't mind that many people dont agree with me. It makes for good discussion. But to imply that none of the signs are there is what's laughable. I named no less than 5 things that would normally be huge red flags. These weren't interpretations, in fact, many were plot points. Lets go through them, and if something isnt true, then please correct me.

1. Ronon bound Teyla against her will. That happened. Can't get around it.

He did the same thing to Sheppard.

2. He kidnapped her/held her hostage. Did I misinterpret that part in 'Runner'?

Yes, because that the only way he could trust Sheppard to get the doctor.

3. He hit her using a cheap shot during training. Thats a bs move no matter what galaxy you're from. Sheppard called him on it immediately but Teyla 'let it go' him.

For Ronon, it may not be a 'bs' move. He's spent the last seven years surviving on his own against the Wraith. Playing by the rules is not something he's good at doing. It does not mean he batters women.

4. He planted a knife in a table during a negotiation for seeds. Seeds. He wasn't even really part of the negotiation.

Drama. It also shows he's a loose canon of sorts.

5. He lied to Teyla, put her life in danger, and killed a man in front of her.

Nobody has argued that point, remember?

Now, if you knew a woman who was hanging out out with a guy that did those things to her, would you sit back and say, they make a cute couple or they have 'chemistry'?

In OUR world, no, people would not hang around with people like that. However, we're watching a scifi show in which a massive part of the culture is that vampirish alien creatures suck the life out of you.

What I don't get...what really puzzles me, Is why so many viewers are cutting Ronon so much slack? Is it because he's a hunk? Is it because TPTB say he's a good guy? or are they the ones projecting and seeing stuff that hasnt been shown on screen?

Hunks are what pieces of cheese are called ;)

No one is cutting him slack, per se, they're just arguing the point that you are Teyla is a battered woman, without one shred of evidence (sorry, the above points don't cut it).

jckfan55
August 20th, 2005, 03:05 PM
As for what the rest of your comment is implying, do you mean to say that a single woman and a single male must obviously be in a romantic relationship if they spend time together outside of work?! Wow, then that means I must have had quite the harem... what with being a single chick hanging out with my single male friends in their rooms in the barracks and going out downtown to roam the mall with them.
LOL :D



What was she supposed to do while there at the table, break out the sticks and beat him up? Yes, that's the hallmark of a leader for you - lashing out instead of rational discourse. As for being an enabler by keeping the murder from her teammates, I think she's finally caught on to the fact that the Earth folks are not the wonderous saviours that she first imagined. She's right, Weir and Co. may have taken a less than favorable view of the incident and removed Dex from the team. For Teyla, Dex's actions were quite likely justified considering her reaction to being called a traitor herself. This is Pegasus Galaxy morality at work, not Earth's.

I agree. It it would have more greatly undermined her credibility in future negotiations if she had scolded Ronan or gotten angry in front of the the other party in the negotiation. She handled it professionally by reaming him out later. I think this actually showed her in a good light. And I agree about this being Pegasus Galaxy morality. Perhaps this is the way Athosians would deal with someone who committed a similar crime. I like that she maintains her own sensibilities despite all the time with the Earth people. I wish we saw more of Teyla the leader.
(as an aside--I noticed she's still wearing the purple top people have complained about elsewhere. Guess she hasn't gotten around to trading for new clothes...:D)

joasia
August 20th, 2005, 03:07 PM
Well now Sam can't hold that whole supernova thing over Rodney's head anymore.Hey, but she intented to do blow the star! That should give her some extra points. :D

Steve_the_Wraith
August 20th, 2005, 03:17 PM
I shudder at the mere idea of that happening.

ShadowMaat = voice of common sense
When has the suits interfering ever worked out for the better. TPTB should try to make the best show possible, rating chasers inevitably pander to the lowest common denomiter in an effort to garner the biggest audience. I for one don't want my television dumbed down (like most of the trash Sci-Fi shows).
My message to the TPTB "Stick to your guns and make the show you want to see. Better one season that you are proud of then a dozen you are ashamed of"

I don't mind shiping when its done well but John/Elizabeth is just too like the whole Jack/Sam thing. TPTB know that if they pair up the leads then the shows done so they jerk people around, "Oh they have a tragic love because they can never be together" Bleh. If they pursue that ship then it'll be a string of them getting together in AU, Alternate timelines and of course episodes where one or the other gets amnesia and professes their love only to get their memory back and then pretend it never happened for the good of the team. Jack/Sam got so heavy handed in later seasons it was off-putting, each season was meant to be the last so each season they tried to outdo themselves with "hints"

Hatcheter
August 20th, 2005, 03:25 PM
4. He planted a knife in a table during a negotiation for seeds. Seeds. He wasn't even really part of the negotiation.

Drama. It also shows he's a loose canon of sorts. To (butcher a) quote from Firefly, it was a heavy-handed and unneccessary attempt to defend her honor. Ronon thought he was helping her.


5. He lied to Teyla, put her life in danger, and killed a man in front of her.

Nobody has argued that point, remember?I'll argued the lied part. He didn't lie about his intentions in the meeting, he never conveyed his intentions at all. He simply asked Teyla to arrange a meeting for him as he probably wouldn't be able to talk with the leader Teyla had been negotiating with.



TPTB know that if they pair up the leads then the shows done so they jerk people around, "Oh they have a tragic love because they can never be together" Bleh. I think TPTB have learned their lesson. If they do decide to push a ship in Atlantis, it had better be one that could actually be accomplished, not the Jack/Sam thing that was hampered by things like realism and Air Force regulations. But there's no need for romantic plots between leads, especially not anytime soon. They've got a great cast with fabulous chemistry, there's plenty for them to work with already. (I'm starting to think DH would have great chemistry with a cadaver.)

SmartFox
August 20th, 2005, 03:32 PM
You make some good points. It was a bit contrived and Mckay was definitely bordeing on the insane but I think that's part of the point. As he said he wanted the sacrifice made to be worth it and in his typical way goes way too far. But for clarification. Apparently with the ZPM they have enough power to open a wormhole to Earth if they need to but they can't go through it because the SGC doesn't have the power to send them back. So they can communicate but they can't travel.

The whole point of going was to be able to learn something to help Earth so once they had the power to do so they'd have begun sending back data anyway. I'm guessing it's something of a high priority. If they don't survive, what they learned definitely has to; so eat away at the ZPM if they must.

Its like you read my mind. Also i think it wouldnt take up to much energy holding the gate open for minutes, even seconds if they send the data compressed. Also the Daedalus could of already gone back to Earth and then back to Alantis. I dont think this is the case but its possible considering that they didn't learn all about this machine in a few days then try and start it up. I got the impression that they spent atleast a few weeks if not months.

alaskannut
August 20th, 2005, 04:05 PM
So you're saying that if something is in orbit it can remain there on it's own power even if it has no sort of boosters or rockets, but merely is just a big hunk of metal?

That doesn't make sense seeing as gravity is pulling on it. I would expect it to have a steadily deteriorating orbital path o.O
The whole point of an orbit is that the object in question has gained sufficient velocity/kinetic energy that its angular momentum is able to counterbalance the pull of the planet' s gravity. Cliche'd example; take a rubber sheet, and put a bowling ball in the middle. Then roll a smaller ball across the sheet, being careful not to push/toss it so hard that it goes over the other side (acquires escape velocity in this context), and that its not aimed directly at the "gravity" well formed by the bowling ball. If done correctly the ball will continue to roll around on the edge of the well, since its angular momentum counterbalances gravitiy'sd effect on it in effect it will be "in orbit". Unfortunately unlike space, this example has friction, so the ball will eventually lose energy and fall into the pit, but hopefully you get the idea. Again though, an object in a low orbit will gradually lose momentum and reenter the atmosphere due to gravity, but only at those lower altitudes.

@Li3n
August 20th, 2005, 04:30 PM
yea the chances of more than one inhabited planet in a solar system is very unlikely


Well that was a ancient planet, which means it could have been terraformed, as could other planets which were at the right distance from the sun.
But as they didn't mention any other inhabited planets there most likely were none.

ToasterOnFire
August 20th, 2005, 04:37 PM
Wow, great, great ep. Best serious ep for me so far this season (Duet still wins on outright hilarity though). It was an excellent Rodney episode plus it brought all the trust issues between Rodney, Weir, Shep, Zelenka, heck even Caldwell, to the forefront.


-After reading spoilers, I thought we were going to get a "darker" Rodney this ep and I was extremely worried that TPTB were going to misportray him. Boy, was I wrong. What a great character study of Rodney! Although I didn't see his behaviors as "dark", we did see how his overconfidence and self-denial has the potential to spiral out of control. But how does one monitor when he's gone too far when his genius appears to be beyond the comprehension of most?

-Love how Caldwell tells it like it is. When Elizabeth accused him of wanting Rodney to continue because he wanted it as a weapon he didn't hesitate to agree, which threw her off nicely. No sugar coating from that guy. More, please. :D

-Not even touching the Teyla battered scenario. But I will say that I thought Teyla held her own against Ronan, not backing down when she was explaining her diplomacy tactics nor when he took advantage of the situation and shot the man. Glad to see she doesn't have a problem standing up for herself. I do enjoy their blossoming friendship, but I don't really see them shipping.

-And regarding ships: As discussed earlier, there is an intrinsic problem shipping main characters. The major ships, from Shep/Weir to Shep/Teyla, to *cough* McKay/Weir, have fans who love them, fans who don't mind them, and fans who hate them for all sorts of reasons. If TPTB decide to lean toward one it's likely that it's going to split the fanbase. it's also likely that TPTB are going to wobble back and forth between shipping their choice in one ep and ignoring it the next, much like they did with Sam/Jack. Such wishwashing will ultimately end up satisfying no one. It's best that Atlantis avoid main character ships completely (although I don't have a problem with secondary character ships, depending on how they're handled of course).

gopher65
August 20th, 2005, 04:41 PM
Yup Alaskannut (BTW I used to live in Eagle River (by anchorage :)). Things in a low orbit will *eventually* have their orbit decay and they will crash (Earth's outer atmosphere is huge and bloated. It extends into space a fair fraction of the distance to the moon). Things in a high, stable orbit (like, say, a ship that had purposefully entered a stable, high orbit :P) would stay there a very long time (although not indefinately due to other minor effects. Only resonance orbits are stable over a moderately long time period).

10,000 years isn't likely given the low orbit the fleet was in, but that low orbit could have been the result of 10,000 years of orbital decay.

Easter Lily
August 20th, 2005, 05:52 PM
One of the things that I love about Atlantis is the interaction between Rodney and Sheppard. Both men seem to dwell on the opposite ends of the personality spectrum but when they come together... the sparks fly and tensions run high. Surprisingly, it works... they complement one another and even in most trying times they show unexpected insight into how the other ticks. Brothers-in-arms who bicker and bark but very seldom do they bite. Watching Rodney and Sheppard together, rousing and bantering is always a bonus ... but watching Rodney push Sheppard's buttons is quite an event. And in Trinity, we witness such an event. This is intriguing because over the course of time spent in Atlantis... they have learnt to depend on each other to survive and have learnt to TRUST the ability of the other man....

Methinks of course, that TRUST is the recurring idea in this episode... Trust comes from knowing the other, from believing that the other can be relied upon to "deliver the goods". Experience builds trust and can just as easily undermine it... And well, in this episode, we note a whole gamut of exchanges here that see different shifts in relational dynamics. In what I consider a poigant moment, Sheppard is asked to "trust Rodney", as Weir is asked to "trust Sheppard" to protect Rodney from himself. JF portrays that uneasiness wonderfully. He is uncomfortable with the choice he feels compelled to make and yet he is the man who gives even strays a chance. In the sub-plot Teyla is forced to reconsider her trust in Ronon, when he places her in the unpleasant position of being complicit in his deception.
Also when there are contentious moments, whose word is the one that should be trusted? The overconfident, brilliant scientist or the cautious, reliable counterpart?There is also another aspect to the issue... does it come to down to the fact that the object must first be worthy of that trust or does it mean that sometimes the one that trusts must make that leap of faith?

It is clear that all endeavour does not exist in a vacuum. Research, exploration, lofty aspirations as they may be, occur and function within the context of choices and relationships. Achievements can only take place because of the support of others. I want to applaud the TPTB for having the courage to do something here so early on in the show which I have always thought should happen in SG-1... and that is for Carter to screw up really badly. For her to screw up so late over something so obvious ie Gemini is inexcusable but if she had done so early on in the show, it would have made for compelling characterization. I think it's a courageous gesture on their part to show that brilliance and complacency can have far reaching consequences and carries a high price tag in how it affects one's relationships.

Schrodinger82
August 20th, 2005, 06:22 PM
You make some good points. It was a bit contrived and Mckay was definitely bordeing on the insane but I think that's part of the point. As he said he wanted the sacrifice made to be worth it and in his typical way goes way too far.

That might explain his persistence, but not his refusal to listen and slow down. It's not like Weir told him he couldn't research it at all, just that he needed to be a little more level headed about it.

I mean, just think of all the research that they ended up losing during their experiments.


But for clarification. Apparently with the ZPM they have enough power to open a wormhole to Earth if they need to but they can't go through it because the SGC doesn't have the power to send them back. So they can communicate but they can't travel.

It's just someone of a letdown after letters to Pegasus. You'd think that they'd be a little more ceremonious about their data transmission than that.

not so ancient
August 20th, 2005, 07:02 PM
I am sick of people saying .....

I don't care if you're shocked .....

I don't have to justify my opinions to anyone, least of all you.


Okay, that tears it. I'm saying something.

If I wrote these words, or something like them, much less did so repeatedly, I'd get rubbed with butter and herbs, roasted over a fire then eaten by Gateworld's mods.

But.....

:rolleyes:

Stevie Wonder could see what's going on here. I don't need to elaborate.

Wait! What's that I smell? Butter? Herbs? Uh oh! :eek: :eek: :eek:

watcher652
August 20th, 2005, 07:45 PM
Well, I just read thru all the posts. And I agree with all of those who said that it was a matter of trust that was the theme of both plots.

And leave to the scifi fans to wonder if the debris field should actually still be in orbit around the planet!

I don't know where that Teyla/Ronon battered woman stuff came from. Do the people who are of this opinion think that Atlantis is trying to address such an issue here? This is sci fi, not the Hallmark Channel. Not that sci fi can't address this issue. But I don't think that has anything to do with Atlantis, and certainly not with this episode.

Teyla is obviously the leader here. This was her own personal mission. She's the one with the respect and trust of the Atlantis expedition. But it was fought for and earned. Ronon should have been following her lead, not making his own decisions. And if he was planning to take revenge, he should have warned Teyla. He could have seen what she thought of the matter and if she didn't understand, he could have come back on his own and face the consequences on his own. Instead, he dragged Teyla into his personal fight.

That's what Rodney did with John. Something that should have been professional was made personal. When Radek tried to convince Rodney that he was wrong, Rodney had to make it personal with him, too.

People think John has the weight of the Pegasus Galaxy on his shoulders because he woke the Wraith and he had to kill his commanding officer. I think Rodney's shoulders are carrying just as heavy a weight. Now, the Atlantis expedition isn't in Pegasus just to find tech to defend against the known threats in the Milky Way. Now it has to find the tech to fight against the Wraith incursion into the Milky Way. And as head of the scientists, and being the genius that he is, Rodney must feel that it ultimately becomes his responsibility to find the answer.

What was it that Rodney said in Siege 3? Something like, "Because I can't help but think you're trying to determine the point at which I completely snap."

Did I just hear something?

MasySyma
August 20th, 2005, 07:53 PM
I enjoyed the episode.

I've already talked about the battering thing in the Dark Sides thread.

TPTB got this episode right. It makes McKay human and allows us to see his weaknesses, and I loved hearing Weir yell at Rodney from the lower deck. He's my favorite character, but he needed that.

lily
August 20th, 2005, 07:56 PM
I haven't read other people's comments and I don't have time to do so right now, but I thought I could add my 2 cents.
I loved it. One of the best Atlantis episodes ever (and I must add that I love all episodes from season 1 and 2 so far). What an outstanding episode! Absolutely great character development. Because of stuff I had read online, I thought that it was going to be a McKay epi, so I was expecting only McKay's character development, but it was great to see that we got to see a lot about other characters as well. Every single character was amazing in his/her own way. Loved every second of this episode.
10 points out of 10!

sparklegem
August 20th, 2005, 08:25 PM
Two (And it's a *BIG* TWO): We actually got to see emotional payoff happen on one of these shows!...Finally, somebody acknowledges that "bad things happened" that should have real, emotional consequences and shows the characters actually concerned about what those results may be.I know! Not to say that it never has happened before, “Need” for example, but often with Stargate plot stuff happens and then all the team members reset to go off again next episode. Seeing the human, emotional element brought forward and beautifully done to this extent in an episode was such a thrill! I can’t say how it much it helps bring the universe and characters to life, how it helps me connect with the show and feel that these characters are real.


It was supposed to be an Ancient superweapon…The fact that the Daedalus was able to withstand some of those weapon blasts suggests that its shields are very powerful. Let me just make this clear. I am fairly certain that during the show it was explained that the weapon, the gun itself, was not an Ancient weapon. It was a weapon of the race of that planet, started with a “D”, and the Ancients, out of desperation, powered it with their unstable super energy source. But the energy supply itself can’t solely determine how deadly the weapon is. So yes, the Asgard shields are very powerful, they were able to withstand what a hive ship could not, but they did not withstand an Ancient weapon.

How was Ronan's teacher exactly a 'traitor'?That’s a good question. We really are only seeing it from Ronan’s perspective, and he took it upon himself to exact justice because he felt betrayed. I suppose the others who let him go added more validity to it, but I thought that Teyla hadn’t known him long enough to take his judgment as truth.

SGLAB
August 20th, 2005, 08:34 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing the next episode because I want to see some emotional carry over to it from this episode. I thought this was such an intense episode. I was really quite impressed with what tptb did with the characters.

Ascended Times.2
August 20th, 2005, 08:37 PM
I think if they were to open a wormhole back to earth you'd here about it...I think they just attached the ZedPm to the Daedalus and sent a transmission bac oto earth informing them about they're situation, perhaps they whent to earth and back through the whole thing? who the hell knows, it might just be a plothole.
Back to my initial argument, I severely doubt they'd open a wormhole back to earht and you woulnd't at last have a thirty second scebe about they talking over the radio...Judging by the fact that only the Daedalus commander (can't remember name) Knew about the transmission, suggests they didn't open the gate. I'm gonna assume the research took an enourmous amount of time anyway....

sparklegem
August 20th, 2005, 08:53 PM
I don’t know where to start. This was such an incredible episode. The acting was wonderful (thank you Mr. Hewlett!) and added so much to the characters, the situation, and the show. Shoot, I’ve got so much to write that no one’s going to read this. I’d appreciate it if you check out what the different blocks of texts are about, though.

Could someone explain to me the Dr. Vogel/pastries reference?

What about Hermiod?
I would like to know what Hermiod was doing while all this high level physics technology was being explored. Does he kind of abide by the Ancient philosophy that he’s there to manage the Asgard components of the Dedalus and won’t interfere with other things?

General Thoughts
I was on such a ride. The first half made me so happy to be caught up in the science department’s passion and excitement. Sheppard was hilarious “…which leads me back to cool.” :D And the second half really drew me in with the struggle for realization and the risks and realities.

On second viewing, I was feeling terrible from the beginning. My eyes misted over during the scientists-working-diligently scene. And it was writtern so that some lines just kick you in the gut when you know the outcome, Rodney when asking for Sheppard’s help, “I think I’ve earned it,” and Sheppard telling Elizabeth, “He asked me to trust him.”

Help me out-Implausibility or misinterpretation?
The one part I found implausible was how McKay could brush over what Zelenka was saying. It seemed to me that Zelenka was imparting a fairly crucial concept of how the technology worked, one that McKay didn’t know of judging by “What are you on about?” but accepted as truth and thought he could compensate for. Even as assured and arrogant as he was, wouldn’t McKay want to know the conceptual details of how something works instead of just rushing to power it up? I could see if McKay didn’t believe any of Zelenka’s calculations were correct, but it sounded to me like Zelenka was saying “I put sharp stuff in your clay,” and McKay responding, “I’ll handle it while I’m molding it.” So, if I am interpreting it correctly, then does that show just how far gone McKay was? That this was his version of a breakdown and reality check, maybe?

I really like Caldwell
This episode made me like Caldwell even more. He’s smart, honest, upfront, and calculating.

Rodney
One of the reasons I like Rodney so much is because he is flawed, and therefore realistic. Yes, he’s arrogant and tells everyone he’s the best, but he doesn’t just take the title and laze around in the mess hall. He feels the responsibility the others have put on him to live up to the title (“Well, McKay will come up with something.” “I will try, but despite what you all may think, I am not Superman”). He wanted to unlock this technology, wanted to make Collin’s death meaningful, wanted to prove he could, thought he could. It’s too bad he blocked Zelenka out in the end, and was completely confident in himself that he could finish the Ancient’s work. Hindsight is 20/20. Hopefully this is a step for McKay. It’s impossible for me to speak to his complex motivations, thoughts, and faults, but they were so beautifully illustrated in the show.

Pondering relationships (not romantic)

But other Atlantis members have also put lives at risk because of their "confidence" in their ability… It just seems that while all the characters are flawed - it's Rodney's flaws that seem less "forgiveable". The interaction between Rodney and the others, especially Elizabeth, was honestly revealing, but it made me a little uneasy too. Elizabeth gave him permission to go ahead and he didn’t intentionally lie to her when he said he could do it, but he ended up being wrong, confidence his downfall, and Elizabeth chewed him out for it as Rodney recognized he was wrong. You heard her yelling. In “Hot Zone” Sheppard undermined Elizabeth’s authority by use of his military rank, purposefully disobeyed her, instead choosing to take action into his own hand that allowed the infected man to reach the mess hall. And in the end he still defended himself and Elizabeth engaged in a short conversation with him, and later insisted he be promoted. Edit: It was brought to my attention that Rodney could have instigated the yelling and not have shown Elizabeth the same remorsefulness as he did Sheppard. That is a possibility. Still, I don't see it starting off anything like Sheppard's sit down, Rodney has shown an inclination to not snap at her as easily as his colleagues, and he'd still have to have been egotistically storming after the event at the outpost. Sheppard and McKay both thought they were doing the right thing, the difference is Sheppard happened to be able to help fix the mess. Perhaps McKay was amplified as a scapegoat (I'm talking in general, not just the chewing out by Elizabeth) as someone who finally screwed something up that couldn’t be sugarcoated because it kind of worked out okay. Perhaps everyone has put so much trust and responsibility on him through the last year (Elizabeth let him go ahead despite Zelenka’s opinion) that the disillusionment that he can’t pull through with everything and that his judgment isn’t always capable caused such a break in trust.

And then there’s the truth of reality that Elizabeth’s relationships with Sheppard and McKay are not equal. She trusts Sheppard’s instincts more, even if he goes behind her back. “She’ll listen to you.” Rodney had to get Sheppard involved for Elizabeth to allow him to go. She feels she needs to protect Rodney from himself. In addition, perhaps Rodney’s arrogance opens the door for Elizabeth to be more aggressive with him.

With my experience all the way back in elementary school, some people have the charisma that allows them to get away with everything, others don’t.

It just struck me that Elizabeth wouldn’t let Rodney go back without any evidence that he couldn’t do it, not having expertise in that field herself and no other opinions, then defaulted to Sheppard’s instincts, and then felt secure enough that she let Rodney go ahead when Zelenka actually did offer an opinion to the contrary.

Food for thought on McKay and Sheppard’s relationship:
McKay comes to Sheppard for help, imparts the situation he’s in and how he feels about it (probably one of the biggest experiences of his life, with such an amazing piece of tech and how it caused the death of a colleague), beats around the bush about Collins, and Sheppard refuses McKay entry into his room, keeping him standing there, off his balance. Not exactly the typical H/C situation. But perhaps there was a mundane reason for no visitors.

Elizabeth's attitude toward military

Liz has a chip on her shoulder when it comes to dealing with Caldwell. His query that maybe Collins made the fatal error was entirely reasonable. Liz instantly jumped down his throat about it, which seemed a bit much, even for her.Another thing I’ve noticed about Elizabeth this season that I didn’t see last season is a defensive aggressiveness she has toward the military, namely Caldwell and the SGC in Intruder. She also had it with the politician in Condemned but I think that was more her acting on her instincts about his integrity. I’m not sure if she’s cynical towards them or maybe a little insecure, but some things that caught my attention in Trinity were towards Caldwell “Are you looking for a scapegoat?” “Isn’t the Dedalus about to head back to earth?” In Lost City Daniel did imply that her past history with the military wasn’t amiable or that she didn’t think highly of them. Southern Red brings up a good point though that she was concerned for the harmful potential of the energy source.

I’m pleased to see that Elizabeth has faults too, even though I’m not fond of them.

Zelenka
I love Zelenka. I wish he was in the scripts as much as possible. He really does have a saintly demeanor to put up with McKay like that. He's smart and a great character.

Teyla and Ronan plot
I’ve got less to say about the B plot, but I really liked it. I liked how Teyla presented herself as a practiced diplomat and strong, responsible leader when it comes to the Athosians. “My people depend on me.” Her interaction with Ronan is definitely interesting, I think in part because Ronan can understand what she’s been through under the Wraith like no one on Atlantis can. I couldn’t help but think of Teal’c asking Jonas, “Are you suggesting an alien conspiracy?”

Madeleine
August 20th, 2005, 09:28 PM
I am sick of people saying .....

I don't care if you're shocked .....

I don't have to justify my opinions to anyone, least of all you.

Okay, that tears it. I'm saying something.

If I wrote these words, or something like them, much less did so repeatedly, I'd get rubbed with butter and herbs, roasted over a fire then eaten by Gateworld's mods.

But.....

:rolleyes:

Stevie Wonder could see what's going on here. I don't need to elaborate.

Wait! What's that I smell? Butter? Herbs? Uh oh! :eek: :eek: :eek:

If you disagree with anything that was in that post, then feel free to argue the point.

There's nothing wrong with "I don't have to justify my opinions" (especially since it was followed with that lovely quip about the balloon animals).

There's nothing wrong with "I don't care if you're shocked that I can't see chemistry between Shep and Weir." (The entire sentence matters, not just odd words that can be picked out). It was in direct reply to someone expressing amazement that people exist who don't see S/W. Reasonable enough.

I do think "I am sick of people saying it'd be unrealistic" is rather aggressive, but I'm very sorry to say that it just isn't moddable. You see, rather than leaving it at that (which would have made that sentence out of line) the poster went on to argue why the alternative that was being proposed was also unrealistic. Which makes it part of a Discussion. Anyone who disagrees can then go on to bolster the first PoV or deconstruct the second, it's all okay.

This post is not to be replied to by anyone, except by PM. I'd like the thread to stay on-topic. Thanks.

ToasterOnFire
August 20th, 2005, 10:31 PM
Could someone explain to me the Dr. Vogel/pastries reference?
Well, I think this is our first and probably only reference to Dr. Vogel, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to that character. Rodney was noting how Shep's face lit up when he realized the device could be used as a weapon, much like this Dr. Vogel apparently lights up when around pastries. Dr. Vogel must be very, very fond of pastries. :D

And Atlantis now has pastries? My my, aren't they living the posh life? :D

Quinn Mallory
August 20th, 2005, 11:16 PM
Good episode. Great character development of McKay (and relationship to Weir and Sheppard) and also Ronan.

My biggest complain (and i'll probably just mention the complain since it's easier to write that) is the timing of the A and B plots. From the B plot (the Ronan story), they didn't take that much time (as little as two days and perhaps 3-4 at most) there. The A plot is supposed to be matched up almost simultaneously and I highly doubt it take McKay and his team just half a day to figure out how to work everything much less only one night for Weir to change her mind.

So it seems like that the A plot spanned over 1 month (and that's already quite short) while the B plot is at most a week. They should have Ronan go visit a few more survivor of his planet or Teyla saying something to the effect of they having to go make more trades elsewhere (did she say anything like that?).

Other than that, I love Zelenka and McKay. The interaction of Weir and Caldwell was also interesting.

For the shippers out there, I think there is something brewing between Weir and none other than Zelenka. Am I the only one who feels that way?

the dancer of spaz
August 21st, 2005, 12:00 AM
I haven't read through this thread yet, because I don't want to feel like I'm stealing anyone else's thoughts/feelings/rants. So, here are my thoughts:

I thought it was a VERY good episode. It was interesting to see how the team reacted to McKay's behavior. It was ALSO interesting to see how willing he was to fly off the handle at them. I liked the idea that it'll take a while for McKay to mend those relationships, but that the friendships aren't TOTALLY demolished. McKay's a good man, but it's nice to see him fall from his self-appointed pedastal sometimes. And, as always, I love David Hewlett. :P

There were some great McKay/Shep and Weir/Shep moments (as always). Pileggi was great as usual. Zelenka is SOOOO endearing. I was never too gung-ho about Zelenka before, but this episode really made me appreciate him. He's much cuter than I gave him credit.

I like how Elizabeth said that she sometimes has to protect Rodney from himself. Sometimes she has great intuition and it's completely overlooked by the others.

The last scene was pretty cool. In a short amount of time, you saw the silent tension between Ronon and Teyla and the overwhelmingly LOUD tension between Rodney and Elizabeth. I don't think I say this often enough, but I like the fact that Elizabeth has an odd (friend)ship with Rodney. She was basically yelling at him as a commander AND as a friend. Shep wasn't the only one who was violated here. Also, the fact that no words were expressed between Ronon and Teyla added to the drama of those final moments. :)

Overall, I'd give the ep an 8.

Now... *sigh* The B Plot of the episode.

Disclaimer: There be a bit of a mighty rant ahead. Onward, if ye be willing. ;)

OK. I can't help but think that TPTB were not feeling the Shep/Teyla web they'd weaved, and are now forcing the Teyla/Ronon angle HARD in an effort to provide some ambiguous UST between John/Elizabeth a la Jack/Sam. Meanwhile, I'll try to ignore the fact that Teyla and John supposedly kiss later on this season. Besides the fact that TPTB all but PROMISED that they would have no ship in this series, I would think they'd have learned from their "mistakes." Note: I use this term rather loosely. :rolleyes:

I'm a Sam/Jack shipper; I'm beginning to see more and more Shweir with each passing Friday; and I admit I DID think that Teyla/Ronon looked kinda good together last night. That being said, there is one unifying truth that transcends both series: Ship divides. It somehow becomes a crutch for the development of a character. It pits fans against each other. While I don't think Atlantis will reach the scale of SG-1 in terms of division, the potential still exists.

Ship also adds drama, which is nice. It's not always necessary, but when it's done a certain way, I think it's possible for a MAJORITY of the fans to buy it, rather than a vocal faction (or half) of the fandom. Exhibit 1: Aeryn Sun and John Crichton. I don't think I've read of a fan who didn't like it. And, if those fans are out there, they're certainly MUCH quieter about it than the others. :P Did that series' PTB luck out in that instance? Perhaps.

Anyway, back to Teyla and Ronon. Teyla hasn't gotten a chance to truly prove herself to the other main characters (or to many fans, apparently). Personally, I like her. And I think Luttrell did a dang good job in this ep. Nevertheless, she's NOT reached the same stature of Shep, McKay, Weir, or even Zelenka and Beckett - for whatever reasons. I'm sure many can name quite a few.

Enter Ronon. A new character. A new plot. A new background. A new angle. Can either character afford even a suggestion of "ship" at this time? I don't think so. Season FOUR on the other hand... ;)

Now, not only must this supposed interest be attached to their character development, but their dirty, little secret will also accentuate the fact that they're outsiders. They're not like "the others," and their moral decisions will evidently diverge from the others' in the long run. The fact that TEYLA suggested such a course of action (i.e. lying) makes me wonder if this won't come back and bite her later on. Not cool. She needs to tell someone. No one and nothing - not even her fledgling friendship with Ronon - is worth breaking the trust of Elizabeth, John and the others. Again, I don't think she can afford that kind of damage.

/rant

On a more positive note: I'm really diggin' the Stargate franchise's use of villages. Knowing that it's all on one stage makes it even cooler. :D

LoveYouBaby
August 21st, 2005, 01:03 AM
Nice episode,the Ronan Dex story was alright, I liked the ending to that scene where Teyla threatens Ronan to never to abuse their friendship ever again, just to set some sort of personal vendetta.

The main story that I was really interested was the unfinished technology. McKay... poor guy, his ego gets the best of him at times and in this case. It went to the extreme.

The technology would have been a great asset for every planet, and after everything we've seen, McKay seems like he still hasn't learnt his lesson, he was more worried about his rep than the friendships he has made. Wish we could have seen more of the argument between McKay and Weir.

This episode was fantastic, 9.5/10, the effects, the main storyline was good, it was at a steady pace. It was a shame to see one of the scientist died and that another Stargate went to waste.

watcher652
August 21st, 2005, 01:15 AM
Sparklegem, you made a lot of wonderful comments. I want to focus on this one.
Pondering relationships (not romantic)
The interaction between Rodney and the others, especially Elizabeth, was honestly revealing, but it made me a little uneasy too. Elizabeth gave him permission to go ahead and he didn’t intentionally lie to her when he said he could do it, but he ended up being wrong, confidence his downfall, and Elizabeth chewed him out for it as Rodney recognized he was wrong. You heard her yelling. In “Hot Zone” Sheppard undermined Elizabeth’s authority by use of his military rank, purposefully disobeyed her, instead choosing to take action into his own hand that allowed the infected man to reach the mess hall. And in the end he still defended himself and Elizabeth engaged in a short conversation with him, and later insisted he be promoted. Edit: It was brought to my attention that Rodney could have instigated the yelling and not have shown Elizabeth the same remorsefulness as he did Sheppard. That is a possibility. Still, I don't see it starting off anything like Sheppard's sit down, Rodney has shown an inclination to not snap at her as easily as his colleagues, and he'd still have to have been egotistically storming after the event at the outpost. Sheppard and McKay both thought they were doing the right thing, the difference is Sheppard happened to be able to help fix the mess. Perhaps McKay was amplified as a scapegoat (I'm talking in general, not just the chewing out by Elizabeth) as someone who finally screwed something up that couldn’t be sugarcoated because it kind of worked out okay. Perhaps everyone has put so much trust and responsibility on him through the last year (Elizabeth let him go ahead despite Zelenka’s opinion) that the disillusionment that he can’t pull through with everything and that his judgment isn’t always capable caused such a break in trust.

And then there’s the truth of reality that Elizabeth’s relationships with Sheppard and McKay are not equal. She trusts Sheppard’s instincts more, even if he goes behind her back. “She’ll listen to you.” Rodney had to get Sheppard involved for Elizabeth to allow him to go. She feels she needs to protect Rodney from himself. In addition, perhaps Rodney’s arrogance opens the door for Elizabeth to be more aggressive with him.

With my experience all the way back in elementary school, some people have the charisma that allows them to get away with everything, others don’t.

It just struck me that Elizabeth wouldn’t let Rodney go back without any evidence that he couldn’t do it, not having expertise in that field herself and no other opinions, then defaulted to Sheppard’s instincts, and then felt secure enough that she let Rodney go ahead when Zelenka actually did offer an opinion to the contrary.Excellent observation! I also think Elizabeth treats Rodney differently than John. And Rodney knows it. That's why he got John to speak up for him.

I was a little shocked that Elizabeth yelled at Rodney where people could hear her. I don't think Rodney started it, the scene would have been shot differently. Rodney's posture was not confrontational at all.

Maybe Elizabeth felt yelling at Rodney was the only way she could show her feelings about the incident in a way that Rodney would understand. Rodney yells at his team. He knows he can do it because he's the boss. Elizabeth had to show Rodney that ultimately, she's the boss. She could have lost both her chief science advisor and her head of military. With John in Hot Zone, she took a different approach because she knows John is a different kind of person.

You make a great point. Rodney didn't deliberately lie or disobey Elizabeth. He honestly thought he was right and could do the job. Yet Elizabeth seems to be verbally punishing Rodney in a much harsher way than she did with John in Hot Zone. John also thought he was right, but he deliberately disobeyed Elizabeth. Yet his tongue lashing was less severe and Elizabeth ultimately brushed it off with the SGC and still insisted that John be promoted.

Like I said in my own post (if you could read through it all!), Elizabeth could have ordered Rodney to stop when Radek presented her with his findings. There was no pressing timetable to meet. If Elizabeth had insisted strongly enough, Rodney would have stopped. He has never before disobeyed Elizabeth or talked back at her. Rodney has always shown her respect. And while he yelled at John, insisting that he could do the job, Rodney has never disobeyed John either. When John insisted in stopping the test, Rodney tried to halt the reaction but discovered he couldn't.

Actually, now that I think about it, Elizabeth didn't show Radek much respect, did she? Why didn't she insist that Rodney come back and at least look at Radek's findings? From day one, I felt that Radek has had Elizabeth up on a pedestal. Maybe this will show Radek that Elizabeth is human.

Elizabeth was wrong to let Rodney go as far as he did. She does know Rodney. And who will yell at Elizabeth when she's wrong?

LoveYouBaby
August 21st, 2005, 01:50 AM
The President.

Weir and Sheppard are the leaders, and they have a mutual understanding for one another. But McKay is just a scientist that's so full of himself that he needs a verbal lashing every now and again but even then, he doesn't take it seriously.

I agree with what watcher652 said about Radek, he sees Weir as the shining star, maybe it's because the "Governess" of Atlantis is a civilian and not military.

watcher652
August 21st, 2005, 02:28 AM
Weir and Sheppard are the leaders, and they have a mutual understanding for one another. But McKay is just a scientist that's so full of himself that he needs a verbal lashing every now and again but even then, he doesn't take it seriously.I don't think you're correct here. Rodney is NOT "just a scientist." Elizabeth is the head of the multi-national Atlantis expedition. Rodney, John and Carson all report directly to her. Since this is ultimately a science expedition, if for whatever reason Elizabeth is incapacitated, I think Rodney would be in charge. Unless the situation called for a military action, which may mean John would be in charge, like Everett took over from Elizabeth during the Siege. Or unless the provision has been made that all three share in the duties until someone could be found to replace Elizabeth or Elizabeth herself is back in her position.

Rodney would take any verbal lashing from Elizabeth or John very seriously. He's never disappointed Elizabeth or John before. Didn't you see the episode? Didn't you see how much he wanted to apologize to John for letting him down? It mattered to him more than apologizing to Elizabeth because he personally asked John to trust him.

Rodney has always been the Answer Man, coming up with a solution that has saved the expedition time and time again. This is the first time he's been wrong. When he saves the day, he does so in a big way. When he doesn't, we see what a major disaster that turned out to be. This is the first time his genius has let him down.

Throughout all the episodes, Rodney has shown an unexpected braveness and an unwavering loyalty to his team. He may grouse about it and it takes him longer to work up the courage, but ultimately he does the right thing. He constantly puts himself in danger by being on the first contact team.

I don't think Rodney is "just a scientist." Not at all.

watcher652
August 21st, 2005, 02:42 AM
The technology would have been a great asset for every planet, and after everything we've seen, McKay seems like he still hasn't learnt his lesson, he was more worried about his rep than the friendships he has made. Wish we could have seen more of the argument between McKay and Weir.No, the tech would not have been a great asset. Remember what Radek said. The power source couldn't be used at any level. The experiment created particles that had unpredictable reactions. Rodney had the test at only 40% and it still went wrong, overloaded and took out 5/6 of a solar system.

Rodney wasn't worried about his reputation at the end. He wasn't apologizing for his reputation. He was apologizing because he let his friends down. He apologized to everyone. He knew he was wrong and there was no way he could make it right. All he could do is apologize and hope for forgiveness.

SaharaGate
August 21st, 2005, 05:08 AM
Only just watched the ep and..well. Wow!

The eps are getting better and better each week..definitely my favourite so far.

I mean sure it was predictable...but that was kinda the point. There was this awful, arresting agony to watching McKay work, knowing it would all go wrong.

In my opinion, the whole weapon, power source experiment hting was really just incidental to the character exploration in this ep. This ep didn't advance the overall story arc of the Atlantis universe that much, but it did show us a lot about Rodney, his shortcomings and his interactions with the other characters - particularly shep, which is my personal favourite dynamic :D That last scene between them will make me happy for weeks :) (in that angsty kind of way heh).

The chemistry between those two is just fantastic...so very dynamic because it isn't always fun and playful. To me, this is the most realistic and fascinating relationship on the show.

That said though, I do think people were expecting a little much of him...although he acted rashly and let his ego get the better of him, he did genuinely believe he could do it, and even put his own life at risk to do so (and we know nothing is more precious to him than his own life...save maybe his team's lives). I personally don't think it is a crime that he failed...he was wrong. That's all.

So THANK U powers that be for showing us the darker side to his character. Well not dark, just very, very fallible.

QuiGonJohn
August 21st, 2005, 05:09 AM
I liked this episode. Too tired to read ALL the pages to comment on other's posts right now. Just got done oging through all the pages of the BEACHHEAD thread.

I love Gateworld, but it's almost a bit disappointing to see SO MANY pages about a new episode, so soon after it airs. Makes it harder to stay involved in the discussions.

Biggest thing to me is McKay having to come to grips with the fact that his own self-confidence can get in the way of seeing the big picture.

SaharaGate
August 21st, 2005, 05:14 AM
I don't think you're correct here. Rodney is NOT "just a scientist." Elizabeth is the head of the multi-national Atlantis expedition. Rodney, John and Carson all report directly to her. Since this is ultimately a science expedition, if for whatever reason Elizabeth is incapacitated, I think Rodney would be in charge. Unless the situation called for a military action, which may mean John would be in charge, like Everett took over from Elizabeth during the Siege. Or unless the provision has been made that all three share in the duties until someone could be found to replace Elizabeth or Elizabeth herself is back in her position.

Rodney would take any verbal lashing from Elizabeth or John very seriously. He's never disappointed Elizabeth or John before. Didn't you see the episode? Didn't you see how much he wanted to apologize to John for letting him down? It mattered to him more than apologizing to Elizabeth because he personally asked John to trust him.

Rodney has always been the Answer Man, coming up with a solution that has saved the expedition time and time again. This is the first time he's been wrong. When he saves the day, he does so in a big way. When he doesn't, we see what a major disaster that turned out to be. This is the first time his genius has let him down.

Throughout all the episodes, Rodney has shown an unexpected braveness and an unwavering loyalty to his team. He may grouse about it and it takes him longer to work up the courage, but ultimately he does the right thing. He constantly puts himself in danger by being on the first contact team.

I don't think Rodney is "just a scientist." Not at all.
*nods vigorously*

Rodney is so much more than a scientist. Though he is very driven by the desire to learn and by personal achievement.

I just love that they are allowing him to fail so early in the series. In SG, it seemed like the team were invincible for a very long time.

And i love that Shep trusted him implicitly and that this trust was shaken.

Fantastic characters.

Though personally i was a little bothered by Liz shouting at Rodney at the end. He acted recklessly, but he didn't do it alone.

What he did do was take people's trust in him and run with it...and that's not so cool.

but if that agonizing look on his face at the end of the ep is anything to go by, he has definitely learned something about himself after this.

What I think is utterly amazing about Rodney (& DH) and what has made me fall in love with this character all the more, is the way he can go from being infuriatingly, egomanically arrogant to disarmingly humble in a matter of seconds.

He takes complete responsibility for his mistakes and makes absolutely no apologies or excuses for himself. The only time he does that is when he sees something as a 'higher' scientific goal, when he's working towards something he really believes in.

All the petty things he will blame on his staff or Radek, but when it comes right down to it he doesn't shirk responsibility. He takes complete ownership of his failings. While he is quick to take credit for things, he's just as quick to accept blame that is duly his.

He is just full of so many contradictions.

That very last scene with Shep...wow. I'm just in awe of DH's ability. When his voice breaks like that...it's heartwrenching.

ShadowMaat
August 21st, 2005, 05:57 AM
Regarding Dr. Vogel, I have a feeling (although I haven't Googled to check), that Vogel is someone from Rodney's past rather than someone from "science history". :)

TJuk
August 21st, 2005, 10:12 AM
My take on 'Trinity'

I thought the episode, though not a bad episode kinda fell flat at the last hurdle, it was less a climax and more a fizzle out. The build up was good, but the ending...well Sheppard spoke and acted as if he really didn't give a damn. The whole 'McKay looses Shep's trust' issue seemed little more then a word or two with no real emotion or action behind it. Infact, for a McKay centric episode, I found the Teyla & Ronon b plot far more engaging.

It seems to be a recurring theme this season, good eps but with the exception of Seige 3 and Duet (the latter of which I dont count in the same catagory because it was non-arch fluffy fun) nothing has really got me going. There have been some priceless little moments, some interesting developments but for the most part the majority of episodes seem to have lessened my ethusiasm. It just seems like they build for some good angst, drama or tension and then...run out of steam. Maybe if we'd seen more of the aftermath of McKay's actions, a good arguement with Sheppard, actually shown the one with Weir and not just overheard it and maybe the person hurt/nearly as a result of his extreme arrogance & over-confidence had been someone that McKay REALLY cares (maybe Zelenka?) instead of 'red shirt of the week', then maybe it would have had a little more emotional punch.

As a result what could have been a great episode was another 'good' ep, its turning into a medicore season so far, no real risks, no real emotional punch, no high drama, no real character devleopments, heck McKay really didn't seem like he gave a damn about Collins death, he didn't react even half as much as he did to any of the deaths in Hot Zone.

What can I say, add the fact Beckett was in it for all of...oh 1 scene and a couple of lines (so much for series regular) with the odd patented 'concerned look' and I found this episode distinctly disappointing. The only good thing on the 'a plot' is it may have repurcussions to future episodes and its about damn time McKay ran out of rabbits to pull out of his arse.

Finally we get to see theres a little ice and fire under Teyla's calm serene ficade. She's a wolf in sheeps clothing and her confession to the fact she might also consider 'judge, jury and excutioner' Ronon style, if the situation called for it, is VERY interesting. Add to the fact she's not telling the folks back on Atlantis and thats a nice little twist and a sorely needed bit of character devleopment because so far this season she's pretty much had little more to do then 'give hot blokes appraising looks' and show more skin then usual. On the flip side theres also bloody amazing stick fighting last week, Rachel is really kicking ass with style this season!

Here's hoping Beckett gets a little character developement soon and its not just 'hatches, matches and dispatches' man next week!

TJ :o

Wass
August 21st, 2005, 10:27 AM
Regarding Dr. Vogel, I have a feeling (although I haven't Googled to check), that Vogel is someone from Rodney's past rather than someone from "science history". :)

Well I googled to check and found two people with same names it could be them or a new character.

http://www.pb.izm.fhg.de/mec/hidden_contacts/vogel_dietmar_dr.html

http://wswww.physik.uni-mainz.de/ClusterFalle/Vogel/welcome.html

PugGate
August 21st, 2005, 10:34 AM
The Daedalus was about to withstand quite a few blasts from the Ancient superweapon, that either means that the weapon wasn't nearly as powerful as they made it out to be or that the Daedalus shields are very powerful.

Well they are asgard shields.

It just seems a little odd that the Stargate was in space instead of beside the military installation, unless they were worried that the military installation mught blow up. I was just thinking that it would have made more since for the stargate to be on the planet because the Ancients could have rigged up an iris.

PugGate
August 21st, 2005, 10:39 AM
Why the heck wasn't Hermiod helping Mckay? Does the most powerful energy source in the galaxy not interest the Asgard?

Giantevilhead
August 21st, 2005, 10:43 AM
Let me just make this clear. I am fairly certain that during the show it was explained that the weapon, the gun itself, was not an Ancient weapon. It was a weapon of the race of that planet, started with a “D”, and the Ancients, out of desperation, powered it with their unstable super energy source. But the energy supply itself can’t solely determine how deadly the weapon is. So yes, the Asgard shields are very powerful, they were able to withstand what a hive ship could not, but they did not withstand an Ancient weapon.
No, McKay said that the weapon was a ground based version of the satellite weapon except that it had a lot more firepower.

Quinn Mallory
August 21st, 2005, 10:44 AM
Why the heck wasn't Hermiod helping Mckay? Does the most powerful energy source in the galaxy not interest the Asgard?

I was just thinking the same thing.

McKay and Hermiod probably can't stand each other. In addtion McKay's ego probably want this to be purely a human (and more importantly his personal) achievement.

Quinn Mallory
August 21st, 2005, 10:46 AM
Well I googled to check and found two people with same names it could be them or a new character.

http://www.pb.izm.fhg.de/mec/hidden_contacts/vogel_dietmar_dr.html

http://wswww.physik.uni-mainz.de/ClusterFalle/Vogel/welcome.html

I would bet my money that Dr. Vogel is just a made up person.

Quinn Mallory
August 21st, 2005, 10:47 AM
What can I say, add the fact Beckett was in it for all of...oh 1 scene and a couple of lines (so much for series regular) with the odd patented 'concerned look' and I found this episode distinctly disappointing.

Well, this is at least infinitely better than the last episode (The Condamned) with absolutely no Beckett at all.

TJuk
August 21st, 2005, 10:59 AM
Well, this is at least infinitely better than the last episode (The Condamned) with absolutely no Beckett at all.

Not really, the only thing worse then having Beckett missing is having him 'just there' like a random line speaking breathing prop! (its what killed Ford's character & is almost happening to Teyla this season), he's better then that. And I dont think a token few lines really counts as episode participation.

TJ :(

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 21st, 2005, 11:16 AM
Interesting episode filled with some meaty, hard SF, a goodly dose of history, and good, character-building sub-A and B plots.

I really appreciated how they tied the main plot with the Manhattan Project and the Trinity test site, and all the controversy and debate between scientists and military that went on there, too. It was interesting to find out that the Wraith did not destroy that world; the tests did.

I throughly enjoyed the tension between Weir and Caldwell. Both were brilliant and the writers made adults of both. Thank you, PTB.

As for Rodney, I loved his enthusiasm, his ego, which was not as annoying to me, this week despite his ambition, and the fact that he took full responsibility for the death of that red shirt. I hope we see some character development from this; some dangerous self-doubts, hesitation, etc.

It's also increasingly apparent that Rodney and Sheppard have a close relationship; not so much slashy, for me, 'cause I'm not into that sort of thing, though there's certainly enough fodder for slash. What I see is more like the friendship between Bashir and O'Brien from DS-9.

Dex and Teyla do look good together, and I'm not talking ship(I'm ambivalent towards all Atlantis ship, ATM). Both Dex and Teyla were strong characters in this ep, and I think they have good onscreen chemistry.

Overall, a very well done episode that I will enjoy watching again. :)

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 21st, 2005, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Excali5033
Well now Sam can't hold that whole supernova thing over Rodney's head anymore.

Hey, but she intented to do blow the star! That should give her some extra points. :D

Yeah, and Sam blew up the entire solar system, not just three fifths of one. :p :p :p

Ugly Pig
August 21st, 2005, 12:41 PM
And now I shall tell you the truth.


PIGGY'S USELESS OPINION
of 'Trinity'

Interesting episode. It appears to have been written for the sole purpose of threatening the relationship between the characters. Teyla's newfound friendship with Ronon is challenged when he uses her to get to his old friend so he could kill him, as is Sheppard and McKay's when Rodney screws up and Sheppard plainly tells him that he has lost his trust. Add to that Weir literally yelling at McKay after his screw-up, McKay having insulted every person in the room (especially Zelenka), Ronon and Teyla deciding to keep secrets from the rest of their team... Also taken into consideration that trusted team member lt Ford recently went nuts, it seems like the writers are going out of their way to not have the characters becoming the close friends we perceive (the original) SG-1 to have become over the years.

Or maybe they just don't want to get there just yet. Whatever the intention, I'm not worried that the show will degenerate to the soap opera point where everyone hates each other and scheme behind each others backs... That I don't think TPTB would stoop to. :)

Another thing is that this whole deal felt a lot like McKay's appearances on SG-1, pre-Atlantis. Like back then, he was arrogant, as well as... well, wrong. While he has undergown some character growth since then, these aspects still remain. Oh well... maybe next week, he'll be right again, about everything.

Lightsabre
August 21st, 2005, 01:56 PM
I'm gonna go ahead and say it. Weir has a lot of responsibility for what happened in 'Trinity'
Zelenka came to her and told her of grave concerns he had. She, in the end, authorised McKay to continue his test, then reamed him out for what happened.
I like Weir, but that action smacks of hypocrisy to me. McKay was arrogant, that whole 'none of you understand this like I do' thing was completely out of line. He bears the brunt of responsibility, but, for Weir to authorise the test and then ream him out, to me, is hypocritical and detracts from a great character.
Esp since she earlier claimed that she sometimes had to 'save him from himself'. In other words, she knew his arrogance could run away with him, but, despite having grave reservations about the test, let it go.

tsaxlady
August 21st, 2005, 02:00 PM
The best thing about this episode was Zelenka. Rodney was back to his SG-1 arrogant self. I did like the interaction between Caldwell and Weir. The Dex/Teyla sub plot at least brought some depth to Teyla. Not my favorite SGA episode but not the worst episode either.

As for the end credits issue I was Tivoing the episode and it cut off and BSG started before SGA ended so I guess SGA was running long this week.

The one thing I missed this week was Beckett.

MarshAngel
August 21st, 2005, 02:24 PM
To be fair though, she was delegating, which makes it John's fault too. She trusted his trust in Rodney as much as Rodney himself and it was his responsibility to keep him in check. There's really little gained in spreading out the blame however. Rodney is certainly old enough and in theory smart enough to have known better. Given their situation he really needs to check his arrogance more often.
People have been fired for less and imprisoned for far less. Blowing up a solar system is something he should have been punished for in some way. It certainly doesn't give credibility to Weir's command.

Egeria
August 21st, 2005, 02:47 PM
I'm gonna go ahead and say it. Weir has a lot of responsibility for what happened in 'Trinity'
Zelenka came to her and told her of grave concerns he had. She, in the end, authorised McKay to continue his test, then reamed him out for what happened.
I like Weir, but that action smacks of hypocrisy to me. McKay was arrogant, that whole 'none of you understand this like I do' thing was completely out of line. He bears the brunt of responsibility, but, for Weir to authorise the test and then ream him out, to me, is hypocritical and detracts from a great character.
Esp since she earlier claimed that she sometimes had to 'save him from himself'. In other words, she knew his arrogance could run away with him, but, despite having grave reservations about the test, let it go.

I only got round to watching Trinity tonight, and I have to say that I completely agree with you about Weir taking alot of responsibility. To be aware of Rodney's failings and arrogance yet still allow him to continue is irresponsible. The fact that in discussion with Shep and Caldwell she was openly against going back. If she really was against the idea surely she would be looking for any opportunity to stop it, yet when Zelenka brought to her info that could do that she failed to act.

addict27
August 21st, 2005, 03:06 PM
For me SG-1 was better than Atlantis this week which is a reversal from the past few weeks. Too many things just didn't make any sense in this episode. As far as the hive ship staying in orbit for 10,000 years, that's certainly possible if the ship was in a high and stable orbit. I'm an aerospace engineer fresh out of college, so i'm no expert but i know its certainly possible.
After finding out that there was no current threat on the planet, Atlantis should've at the very least boarded the hive ship in orbit. It's got a big chunk taken out, but there's still an enormous chunk left, definitely enough for a fighter bay of Wraith darts and such. Plenty for the scientist to study for the next several months, and may provide Atlantis with some critical discoveries to fight the W. If anything, it would be fun if we could learn more about the Wraith :p .

Also Rodney's comment that "we won't know for sure until we go back down there and try again" was silly and quite frankly stupid. Especially if there's still 1) data to be analyzed and 2) you have no clue why it happened. We all know McKay is a genius and a comment like that sticks out and seems so out of character. If he had found the "error" in the Ancients protocols before the meeting, I could see him insisting on trying again. When you're testing something new and something unexpected happens you don't try again until you have some idea of what went wrong, especially if what went wrong killed someone.

Weir also seemed too eager to simply shut down the whole operation and not try again. To me she always seemed like a reasonable and intelligent leader; if Mckay thinks he has a good solution, let him try it. Of course in life and especially groundbreaking science there are no guarantees. I also thought Rodney knew Zelenka well enough than to blame him of jealousy.

On the plus side I liked Weir/Caldwell interaction a lot. The B plot was also very interesting and helped us get to know more about both Teyla and Ronan. It seemed very unecessary for the Deadalus to come in and save the day, as someone mentioned earlier. If they were keeping an eye on them, a beam-out using the asgard's transporter probably would've been easier and less risky. Then again that means another lost puddle jumper for our atlantis crew.

knowsfords
August 21st, 2005, 03:32 PM
After finding out that there was no current threat on the planet, Atlantis should've at the very least boarded the hive ship in orbit. It's got a big chunk taken out, but there's still an enormous chunk left, definitely enough for a fighter bay of Wraith darts and such. Plenty for the scientist to study for the next several months, and may provide Atlantis with some critical discoveries to fight the W. If anything, it would be fun if we could learn more about the Wraith :p .

Except Rodney sorta blew it all up.
Best bit of the episode for me was the end scene between Rodney and Sheppard, Sheppards words were deservingly cold and Rodney was obviously very cut about it. Very good work Joe and David :)

Sabre
August 21st, 2005, 04:52 PM
Derrick wrote



Ronon has a lot of issues. Mostly violence and rage, but also an alchohol problem, too. These aren't the sort of problems that build character or something that a relationship can fix. They're the type of problems that end up with Ronon hurting someone. (Hurt as in 'kill', not hurt as in 'feelings').


I agree with the rage issue. If last week I didn't have many moral troubles for what Shep did, I do with Ronon's execution without trial of the man. I'm against executions as a penalty (1), even more with no trial. For that matter, that man could have changed in the last 7 years and saved a lot of lifes, Ronon just judged and condemned that man many years later without a single question.

I understood McKay's willingness to keep investigating, he was ready to even sacrifice his life in the attempt, so he was real sure about what he was doing. I think, though, that Weir / Caldwell / Sheppard hurried too much in allowing him to do so, specially when Zelenka warned about the perils. Were they at a hurry? were the wraith coming to Atlantis in a couple of days so we needed badly to have a permanent source of power? They could just have WAITED a couple of days more in order Zelenka and McKay discuss about science, with some calmness and discussions, Zelenka would have made understand McKay his points, or McKay could have convinced Zelenka about how he was wrong. So it's not all McKay's fault here, the ones who allowed or took decissions were definitely wrong. (always, IMHO)

Oh and I don't think Ronon has an alcohol problem, he just celebrated something, and paid it dearly with a hang over, being alcoholic is just a very different matter :)

Sabre



(1) BTW, I did love, in the other hand Landry's resolution against the Goauld traitor, descending into a dark hole, and make him feel hunger, that's a penalty!

Droops
August 21st, 2005, 05:44 PM
Two me, this was an episode that made two characters look good.

The first, and the big winner of the night:

Teyla.

The second was Caldwell, more on that in a minute. But first my thoughts on the overall dynamic.

Our team gets split into two. Sheppard and McKay go to a planet with a really neat weapon and a potential power source that could revolutionize science. Exciting stuff!!

Teyla, with Dex in tow, went to negotiate about . . . food.

Sounds pretty boring, but wait! Let's look at what McKay accomplishes. He gets one member of the group killed, and destroys a planet and part of a solar system. The planet might have had other technology, or something else on it, that would have been of use. Maybe the destroyed wraith ships would have had something. Instead, he fails spectacularly.

Now let's look at Teyla. In spite of Dex causing all sorts of potential problems, she successfully carries out a diplomatic negotiation that results in a more useful food source for her people and for Atlantis. Now of course, Atlantis has the Daedalus. But what happens if it gets destroyed? You need food, pure and simple. The new energy source would be nice. Food is absolutely essential. While mundane, Teyla's efforts have a far more postive impact on the entire operation.

Many here, including me, have argued that Teyla needs to do more. She did it here. She showed leadership and diplomatic skills, just like Weir, but with a warrior ability in her as well. I still saw that stupid purple top that she wears, but going past that she showed to me a lot more leadership ability and was able to get the job done.

McKay was McKay, Sheppard was Sheppard, Weir was Weir. To me, none of these characters developed much beyond what we had before. Not that I wasn't entertained, but I didn't see much change.

I DID see change in Caldwell. Far from being just someone who is angry and in opposition to everyone, he seemed more reasonable and was extremely helpful there at the end. Of course he'd like to keep tabs on things, but he saved Shep and McKay. I saw good character development in him this show.

Dex, we got to know more about him. To me, it was fine, but not really critical. I would expect such behavior given that most of his people are dead and he was hunted for sport for some time. He's not going to conform anytime soon, and I don't expect him to do so. Thus, his behavior wasn't surprising. If anything, it was predictable.

Overall a good episode. Pretty good, maybe even very good. Not spectacular or over the top, but solid.

watcher652
August 21st, 2005, 08:45 PM
I thought the episode, though not a bad episode kinda fell flat at the last hurdle, it was less a climax and more a fizzle out. The build up was good, but the ending...well Sheppard spoke and acted as if he really didn't give a damn. The whole 'McKay looses Shep's trust' issue seemed little more then a word or two with no real emotion or action behind it.I found the scene at the end where Rodney asks for John's forgiveness very emotional. Rodney was so afraid that John had lost faith in him. He was practically begging John to forgive him. He knew it wasn't going to be easy, that he would have to earn John's trust again. But he wanted to know if he had a chance to make it right, if he had a chance to earn John's trust back. John could see how much Rodney was hurting. Rodney didn't do anything out of maliciousness. Rodney was wrong, and knowing that he could be wrong in the one thing he thought he knew, physics, must have shook Rodney to the core.

The dialog at the end of the episode doesn't tell the whole story. You had to see the looks on Rodney's and John's faces to fully appreciate the impact of the scene. You had to hear Rodney's voice break as he spoke to John.

Rodney: Because, honestly, I would, I would hate to think that recent events would have permanetly dimmed your faith in my abilities. Or your trust. At the very least I hope I can, I can earn that back.

John: That may take a while.

Rodney: I see.

John: But, I'm sure you can do it, if you really, really try.


And the emotions that played across Rodney's face as the transporter took John away were so, so...

How can you say there was no emotion there?


As a result what could have been a great episode was another 'good' ep, its turning into a medicore season so far, no real risks, no real emotional punch, no high drama, no real character devleopments, heck McKay really didn't seem like he gave a damn about Collins death, he didn't react even half as much as he did to any of the deaths in Hot Zone.Did you hear what Rodney said in the conference room when they were reviewing the accident?

John: A member of your team is in the morgue.

Rodney: And I am responsible for his death. Yes, I'm painfully aware of that. I sent him in there and I'm going to have to live with that for the rest of my life.

Did you hear how Rodney's voice broke when he said that? Many scientists have died on Atlantis, but this is the first time someone died as a direct result of Rodney's action. I think Rodney did give a damn.

not so ancient
August 21st, 2005, 08:47 PM
-Love how Caldwell tells it like it is. When Elizabeth accused him of wanting Rodney to continue because he wanted it as a weapon he didn't hesitate to agree, which threw her off nicely. No sugar coating from that guy. More, please. :D

Oh definitely. I am so majorly (or -colonel-ly? :p ) behind in thunking for Mitch, it's not even funny. I've got screencaps, LJ icons and all kinds of things to say about the guy but my time has gone poof! lately.

About this scene you mentioned? Weir struck me as being contrary for its own sake, and thinking through things extremely poorly.

HelLO, the Wraith are still out there. They menace many worlds even if Atlantis is safe for now. The weapon is incredibly valuable.

I suppose she was slapping Caldwell around with him thinking he was dreaming of ribbons on his (gorgeous) chest. That's short sighted in two respects. First, a superweapon like that one could sure could have been useful vs. the Goa'uld more than once. Second, what's to keep the Wraith from finding that planet and absconding with the technology? They had suicide ballistic-dart attacks on Atlantis. I don't really think they'd care if umpteen of their scientists died in perfecting the technology.

Mitch played that scene with confidence and style. His body language, and the little laugh he had in "Yes. I do." was just excellent stuff.

I wish Caldwell and Weir would work their little issues out and then rip their clothes off and. .... oh, I'm sorry, was I typing out loud? :eek: ;) :) :p

Daniel's_twin
August 21st, 2005, 10:10 PM
I wish Caldwell and Weir would work their little issues out and then rip their clothes off and. .... oh, I'm sorry, was I typing out loud? :eek: ;) :) :p

The word in the next paragraph is in no way influenced by the fact that I am a Wier/Sheppard shipper, but is only MHO concerning that subject.

Ew. :cool:

JanusAncient
August 22nd, 2005, 12:03 AM
In "Beachhead" they use subspace to send a message back to Earth, they could have done the same from the Daedalus, if not they could have sent the message in the same manner as "Letters From Pegasus," there was no need to hook up the ZPM at all, with enough naquadah generators, which now they more than likely have more of, they will use them in order not to waste the ZPM.

Rodney, his arrogance, and zeal to succeed was bordering on insanity. It became more of him winning some prize, or a certain amount of acceptance in the scientific community, than actually figuring out what went wrong, because there was no reason for him not to listen to Zelenka, but there was also no reason for Weir to allow him to continue, after showing so much spine last week in "Condemned," I don't see why she just didn't order the two to return to Atlantis, but it made a good ending for the show.

I would like to add, eventhough this is sci-fi, some of these scenario's should be a little plausible. To say one minute that the physics is beyond anything you know, and then to say the laws of physics cease to be, seems a little contradictory, or am I mixing episodes.

Callie
August 22nd, 2005, 02:13 AM
Re: Doctor Vogel

While writing the transcript for this episode, I groaned at that reference because I figured it was something the Americans would understand while me, an innocent Brit, didn't have a clue. (It's like the "talk amongst yourselves" references in both Atlantis and SG-1 which went right over the top of my head.) In an attempt to get the spelling right, I googled +"Dr Vogel" +pastries and got a string of pages which I only had a very quick flick through, as it seemed that at least I'd got the spelling correct. I think he's a sort of nutritionist type of doctor, though whether he likes or disapproves of pastries isn't clear!

After I'd watched this episode for the first time, I grumbled that it was a very talky one, which meant typing myself to arthritis in the fingers again, but I did enjoy writing it up, though it's so hard to get the emotion across in the written word.

What I particularly loved about this episode was the amount of smiling there was in the early part, from Rodney, Radek and John in particular. Can't wait to see some good screen caps! I particularly adored the moment when, at the end of the montage of scenes, Rodney finally got the power up and Radek turned around and said, "That's it!" While transcribing, I happened to pause the tape just at the moment he smiled in delight - and that's definitely a screen cap worth having!

SaharaGate
August 22nd, 2005, 02:27 AM
I found the scene at the end where Rodney asks for John's forgiveness very emotional. Rodney was so afraid that John had lost faith in him. He was practically begging John to forgive him. He knew it wasn't going to be easy, that he would have to earn John's trust again. But he wanted to know if he had a chance to make it right, if he had a chance to earn John's trust back. John could see how much Rodney was hurting. Rodney didn't do anything out of maliciousness. Rodney was wrong, and knowing that he could be wrong in the one thing he thought he knew, physics, must have shook Rodney to the core.

So very, very, very true.

I practically got teary...which is VERY out of character for me.


The dialog at the end of the episode doesn't tell the whole story. You had to see the looks on Rodney's and John's faces to fully appreciate the impact of the scene. You had to hear Rodney's voice break as he spoke to John.

Very, very, very true.

Rodney: Because, honestly, I would, I would hate to think that recent events would have permanetly dimmed your faith in my abilities. Or your trust. At the very least I hope I can, I can earn that back.

John: That may take a while.

Rodney: I see.

John: But, I'm sure you can do it, if you really, really try.


And the emotions that played across Rodney's face as the transporter took John away were so, so...

How can you say there was no emotion there?

Believe it or not, my brother (who has been watching Atlantis & SG as long as i have...which is from season SG onwards) and who usually has a simlar view of things to me, thought there was no emotion between Shep & Mckay *whatsoever*.

He thought the only thing Rodney was emotional about was the death of the scientist, and that nothing in this episode reflected in any way on Shep and McKay's personal relationship, but that the ep was purely and exclusively about their professional relationship.

Personally, i can't even fathom how such an interpretation is even remotely possible...I'm with you on the voice-breaking.

Just the fact that he went to shep's *personal quarters* and asked him - no, practically begged him - to back him up...that, to me, was a personal favour.

And while Shep seems to be playing things down, making light of his own anger, i think he's definitely disappointed in Rodney.

And just the fact that he was obviously vigorously avoiding Rodney tells me that he must have guessed Rodney would want to make things right and that he didn't really want to have that conversation.

So to me, that ending was the most emotional moment in the season so far...quite possibly in the entire series (except maybe for Gaul's death).


ETA: I think I might go take this to the Shep-McKay discussion thread...

Sabre
August 22nd, 2005, 02:35 AM
to Callie:

So you are one of those people who make the transcripts. I don't know what is your purpose, but for my understanding is bloody useful, since I'm still improving my english.

Right now I get the 80% of the chapters in the first time I watch and 90% the second time. Of course things like the pastries are very difficult for me to get (and seemingly to you aswell), other words were difficult to get, you'll find funny to know that the first time I listened "Hallowed are the Orii" I actually understood "How loud are the Orii" :) . So, THANK YOU for the bloody great work you do!

Sabre

Schrodinger82
August 22nd, 2005, 03:08 AM
Rodney, his arrogance, and zeal to succeed was bordering on insanity. It became more of him winning some prize, or a certain amount of acceptance in the scientific community, than actually figuring out what went wrong, because there was no reason for him not to listen to Zelenka, but there was also no reason for Weir to allow him to continue, after showing so much spine last week in "Condemned," I don't see why she just didn't order the two to return to Atlantis, but it made a good ending for the show.

And therein lies the problem. The characters aren't acting in a way to serve the characters, or even in a way to serve the situation. They're acting in that way to serve the writers, at the cost of being plausible. I mean, I know this is fiction, but at the very least, you still need to have the characters act in a way that's believable.

For instance, what if the ending has the Wrath coming by for another visit, and Rodney had to inititiate the destruction on purpose in order to prevent them taking control of the facility? A bit cliche, I'll grant you, but certainly more credible than what we saw.

Steve_the_Wraith
August 22nd, 2005, 05:30 AM
Completely pointless I know but Teyla was trading for flax which is made into linen cloth not food

ToasterOnFire
August 22nd, 2005, 05:44 AM
About this scene you mentioned? Weir struck me as being contrary for its own sake, and thinking through things extremely poorly.
Actually, what really threw me is when they were arguing and she snapped out "Isn't the Daedalus going to be leaving soon?" or something similar. That comment just seemed so...catty. Elizabeth isn't catty, at least not so far as I've seen. She better not be, she's a top negotiator, FCOL. That comment was too out of character for me.


HelLO, the Wraith are still out there. They menace many worlds even if Atlantis is safe for now. The weapon is incredibly valuable.
Agreed, though other posters have wondered why all the testing was done at such a frenzied pace. Were they in that big of a time crunch that there couldn't have been extra days, weeks, even months set aside to go over data? I don't understand why Rodney would have rushed through things and I really don't understand why everyone else would let him. Yes it moved the plot forward, but it sacrificed some reality in the process.


Mitch played that scene with confidence and style. His body language, and the little laugh he had in "Yes. I do." was just excellent stuff.
Best line from him so far, IMO. :D


I wish Caldwell and Weir would work their little issues out and then rip their clothes off and. .... oh, I'm sorry, was I typing out loud? :eek: ;) :) :p
Hee. :D While I'm not at that point just yet, I do enjoy the dynamic he brings to the show. He's basically replaced Shep as the agonist for Weir (which is too bad, as I liked the Shep/Weir conflict) and I like seeing the "non-main cast member" point of view. Let's just hope they keep him as an intelligent agonist and don't bring him down to simple "jerk". How many eps does he have left?

aAnubiSs
August 22nd, 2005, 06:12 AM
Should've just taken the weapon and added our own power source =)

blingaway
August 22nd, 2005, 06:26 AM
Completely pointless I know but Teyla was trading for flax which is made into linen cloth not food

It's multipurpose (http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=30779&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=39&iSubCat=174&iProductID=30779&searchid=inceptor) !

joescookiem
August 22nd, 2005, 06:43 AM
I really liked this episode. I really liked the enthusiasm of McKay and Zelenka at the beginning. And the look on Shep's face when they were talking to Weir.

The scene where Caldwell and Shep were trying to persuade Weir to let McKay go back to work on the weapon -- I thought how like the military to immediately want to grab this weapon without having further tests done.

I also loved the ending when McKay appoligizes to Shep and he knows that he lost some of Shep's trust.

Lida
August 22nd, 2005, 08:58 AM
I give up.....I've been trying to respond to various questions posed in this thread for the past 2 hours, but everytime I finish my treatise, it won't post. I was trying to explain WHY the episode was called Trinity...in a nut shell, it had to do with the Manhattan project......sorry, my original explanation was great, but I'm not typing out 4 paragraphs again.

As for Ronon......there is so much bias on this thread and others, about his actions, I'm not even going to try to state what should be obvious. Ronon was seeking and extracted revenge. A very understandable and human emotion. He did not expect to find a former commrade there, on the planet, when he originally decided to go with Teyla, he did not expect to hear about 300 plus survivors of the destruction of his homeworld, nor did he expect to hear that his former friend and "trainer", a traitor, was not only living, but prospering.

Yes, he took advantage of the situation and unfortunately Teyla, to extract his revenge, but SHE understood, didn't she?

I won't go further, I have no wish to be flammed and after reading many of the posts and dealing with others on other threads, I'd simply be spitting into the wind.

Ronon is a very complex character, obviously too complex for many to try to understand. I see that they prefer the black and white of a character with no deep emotions, opinions or motivations. Perhaps tptb shoud be made aware of this.

Furling God
August 22nd, 2005, 10:11 AM
Hi, just popping in to say that I agree with Derrick that Ronon is abusive towards Teyla.

I'm not sure it fits in the social category of battered woman but I think everyone can agree that he has been a nuisance to her on this mission.

This is why I regret that quite a few personnal attacks on Derrick as a poster have not been moderated. Derrick just expressed an opinion about the show and didn't call any other poster stupid or things like that.

Droops
August 22nd, 2005, 10:26 AM
Hi, just popping in to say that I agree with Derrick that Ronon is abusive towards Teyla.

I really don't understand where you or anyone else gets that, but okay. It takes all types, and we all have opinions . . . .

Lida
August 22nd, 2005, 10:36 AM
Hi, just popping in to say that I agree with Derrick that Ronon is abusive towards Teyla.

I'm not sure it fits in the social category of battered woman but I think everyone can agree that he has been a nuisance to her on this mission.

This is why I regret that quite a few personnal attacks on Derrick as a poster have not been moderated. Derrick just expressed an opinion about the show and didn't call any other poster stupid or things like that.

FurlingGod, what exactly do YOU have against the character ( and I do so hope it's just the character) of Ronon Dex, because every post you have made on the subject has not only been negative, but bordering on offensive.

Dex was never abusive towards Teyla, period. And Teyla is quite able to take care of herself and as for being a nuisance......that's the way the story was written. She made her feelings known to Dex. It was an excellent episode, because of the many different facets of Dex, Teyla, Rodney and Shep being shown.

Grow up. :D

not so ancient
August 22nd, 2005, 10:37 AM
Hi, just popping in to say that I agree with Derrick that Ronon is abusive towards Teyla.

Well can *you* support this argument with facts and a logical explanation that connects those facts into 'abusive alcoholic violent relationship'? Because he utterly failed to do so.

And no, being a 'nuisance' is not the same as what Derrick said. At all.

warmbeachbrat
August 22nd, 2005, 10:45 AM
"How loud are the Orii" :) .

LOL!! That is so funny--do you mind if I borrow it?

doylefan22
August 22nd, 2005, 10:52 AM
Reading all the comments on here have left me with just two things to add...

1. Why did Weir trust McKay's judgement? Because he's not steered her wrong up until now. In fact he's saved their collective arses so many times with one incredible idea after another I think even she is guilty of thinking he can do anything.

2. Some people have said that Rodney's obsessiveness/actions were unrealistic. But I've got the feeling that the guy has never led an exactly realisitic life. This is the guy who built a working model of an atomic bomb when he was 11! I don't think he's had a normal life at all and I think that has screwed his thinking. He's too intelligent for his own good. He can't see the woods for the trees. He needs this knocking down to basically get him back to thinking like the rest of us mere mortals. I mean, he's likely been told all his life how amazingly clever he is. I'm surprised he's as normal as he appears to be!

Steve_the_Wraith
August 22nd, 2005, 10:54 AM
Lida I know its frustrating when people who have allways opposed Dex presence don't give the character give the character.

Instead of trying to understand his motivations or looking at the larger picture they condemn him. Some people are predjudiced against Dex because he "replaced" Ford, others because he threathens their favoured ship (like the person who started the I hate Dex thread before the season even started), others are upset that he's "taking" screentime away from their favourite character.

Most of the people were willing to give Dex a chance and since his introduction he's really won alot of the doubters over.

However there are still some bad apples out there wont give him a chance, what I'm saying is that you don't need to defend Dex so much, most people won't be influenced by those who are obviosly biased (just like no one really believes that Teyla is his abused girlfriend)

Anyway your recent post was obviously made when you were very frustrated but you shouldn't let yourself get so upset at the Dex-haters no one really takes them that seriously. So just relax alittle

not so ancient
August 22nd, 2005, 11:18 AM
To what Steve_The_Wraith said? ¡Palabra!

Any person can like or hate any character, any story line, any episode, without needing to make any explanation. No justification is necessary if you like chocolate ice cream more than you like strawberry ice cream. Liking or disliking any aspect of Atlantis is really the same sort of subjective, personal opinion.

BUT, if you're going to make an argument that Elizabeth Weir is an axe murderer, I think you should expect questions about which episode you watched that had her Lizzie Borden impression. And if you reply with an episode in which the rest of us saw Elizabeth Weir cut into an extra rare steak, and you thought it was her axe murdering Kavanagh, we'll probably say that.

GhostPoet
August 22nd, 2005, 11:22 AM
I REALLY enjoyed this episode...the scene at the end when they are flying away from the planet is very intense...and Mckay..wow..we get to see a side of him we haven't seen much of...much darker. I felt bad for him at the end. =(

Overall it's a 10/10 for me. :)

Furling God
August 22nd, 2005, 12:21 PM
I really don't understand where you or anyone else gets that, but okay. It takes all types, and we all have opinions . . . .

You are very tolerant, especially since sg1 recently featured chickens (eaten chickens) and sga never did yet.

Let a soldier feed some poultry in some Atlantis backyard.

ToasterOnFire
August 22nd, 2005, 12:23 PM
Yep, I'm frustrated by people who obviously don't like a character and continually discuss their hangups. BUT I'm more frustrated at how many people in this thread and elsewhere have been deliberately attacking posters rather than the poster's opinion. Such attacks only weaken one's argument and generally bring down the tone of the thread. Can we please avoid them?

Furling God
August 22nd, 2005, 12:54 PM
what exactly do YOU have against the character ( and I do so hope it's just the character) of Ronon Dex,

If you imply that I imply something against the actor, I wonder why I should criticize a guy who gets a job and is directed, and I wish you could explain what you mean by that. If you imply that I criticized the actor, then you should be moderated, if not, then excuse my mistake.


because every post you have made on the subject has not only been negative, but bordering on offensive.

Well in fact many people are realizing it now, especially since this episode, but part of the intention of the writers is to play with the untrustworthiness of the characters. I was just early in seeing that.


Dex was never abusive towards Teyla, period.

There are many people on this thread who disagree with the "battered woman" theme, but I doubt anyone would deny that Dex ruined Teyla's diplomatic mission, and that his violence was not a discutable inuendo but on the contrary plainly displayed by TPTB as such.


Well can *you* support this argument with facts and a logical explanation that connects those facts into 'abusive alcoholic violent relationship'?

No, not really. But he has a right to speak, provided he does not lack respect for other posters.


And no, being a 'nuisance' is not the same as what Derrick said. At all.

I think I see what he means. There are many signs since Runner that make Ronon and Teyla look like a ship. Not a ship but signs of a beginning of a ship. And in case of an effective ship and continued brutality from Ronon, then in that case yes it would look like a battered woman case.

joasia
August 22nd, 2005, 01:01 PM
Ok, so now they have found Yet Another Ancient Laboratory. Great. But why they still had not see even a trace of any Ancient Production Facility? Let's say - a ZPM Factory? Or Puddle Jumper Assembly Line? Or the Ultimate Drone Ltd main storage? Or something? I do not think that all this things had been handmade - can you imagine a group of old Ancients sitting by the fire (in winter) or on the "shore" (in summer), carving one ZPM after another from the dilithium crystals? :p

TechnoBoY
August 22nd, 2005, 01:02 PM
I thought the ep was just okay. McKay is really bugging me though. What the hell is wrong with him in season 2? He seems to be getting dumber! Eek!

Avatar28
August 22nd, 2005, 01:22 PM
Okay, making notes here as I go and writing this in notepad. I may end up saying something that's already been said.


There are, at the end of the Periodic Table of Elements, highly unstable elements that, as I understand, exist as a result of, and for a short time, in nuclear reactions. Einsteinum, Mendelevium. Remember those? Zelenka said that particles like that were being produced by the Arcturus. Those particles are one of the things that a superconducting supercollider can reproduce and study.

I don't believe that's what he was talking about. Rather the device was creating brand NEW types of exotic particles that don't normally exist in the universe. Particles (presumably subatomic ones), not atoms.

John Preston, if an object is in a sufficiently high orbit. I couldn't find the number this time, but I saw it a few days ago. Basically low earth orbit where the shuttle flies and some satellites fly does experience a slight bit of drag. The higher you go the less true it is. Objects in higher orbits should be able to maintain that orbit for thousands or millions of years. Judging by the apparent size of the planet when we saw the junk, I'd say it's probably at an altitude of at least a few thousand miles. An orbit at that altitude is actually considered fairly high and should EASILY be long term stable.



The Daedalus was able to withstand some weapon blasts, yes,

The problem was, the Daedalus, and the whole freaking solar system, could not withstand the explosion from the overload of the Arcturus.

Little boom vs. something on the order of a small nova.

Big difference.

Small nova my heiney. I'd say something more akin to a supernova. To be honest with you, though, even though the energy output may have been akin to a supernova I seriously question what would have happened to the system. In a supernova, you have a shockwave from the outer layers of the star being blasted outwards. In this case, I'm not so sure what would happen. You have a HUGE outpouring of energy. Possibly it would be large enough to vaporize other planets in the system. But you don't have the huge mass of the star going outwards. Possibly the radiation pressure might be enough to cause some sort of instability in the star, but I doubt it. I did a little research on binary systems where one star undergoes a supernova. In those cases the companion star will usually survive, though it may lose some mass. Considering that the sun contains 99% of the matter in the solar system I find it hard to justify Rodney's claim of destroying 5/6 of the solar system. I think Carter still has him beat there. :-)

Now, all that said, I really did enjoy the episode. It was one of the better ones this season. Probably my favorite thus far I think. Lots of character in this one as others have observed but also a good bit of suspense and sci-fi too.

Furling God
August 22nd, 2005, 01:49 PM
PIGGY'S USELESS OPINION

Ugly Pig's opinion is never useless. Furling Gods bow to Ugly Pigs and venerate their words, because pigs are the own gods of furling gods.


Interesting episode. It appears to have been written for the sole purpose of threatening the relationship between the characters.


I couldn't have phrased it better. What a wordsmith Ugly Pig proves to be.


Teyla's newfound friendship with Ronon is challenged when he uses her to get to his old friend so he could kill him, as is Sheppard and McKay's when Rodney screws up and Sheppard plainly tells him that he has lost his trust. Add to that Weir literally yelling at McKay after his screw-up, McKay having insulted every person in the room (especially Zelenka), Ronon and Teyla deciding to keep secrets from the rest of their team... Also taken into consideration that trusted team member lt Ford recently went nuts, it seems like the writers are going out of their way to not have the characters becoming the close friends we perceive (the original) SG-1 to have become over the years.

Or maybe they just don't want to get there just yet. Whatever the intention, I'm not worried that the show will degenerate to the soap opera point where everyone hates each other and scheme behind each others backs...

I was preparing to say something like that, in a less rich and skillful manner.


That I don't think TPTB would stoop to. :)

Wait and see, wait and see....

Madeleine
August 22nd, 2005, 02:48 PM
... I regret that quite a few personnal attacks on Derrick as a poster have not been moderated. Derrick just expressed an opinion about the show and didn't call any other poster stupid or things like that.

I'm sorry, that's my bad. I PM'd the one most responsible, and I've done a bit of editing, but if there's stuff I missed then I'm sorry, to Derrick and to anyone else who was upset by the unkindness to him.

There's too much tetchiness in this thread altogether right now, please could people just calm down a bit?

Remember that we're here to discuss opinions, and it's okay to deconstruct and criticise people's ideas and suggestions, but not to attack the people who hold the opinions, to sneer at people for having the opinions/ideas, or to imply that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is deluded / has problems / is lying / needs to watch again / is missing the obvious / is disturbed / is too closed-minded for you to deign to post to.

Madeleine

sgatelvr
August 22nd, 2005, 02:50 PM
Hi, just popping in to say that I agree with Derrick that Ronon is abusive towards Teyla.

I'm not sure it fits in the social category of battered woman but I think everyone can agree that he has been a nuisance to her on this mission.

This is why I regret that quite a few personnal attacks on Derrick as a poster have not been moderated. Derrick just expressed an opinion about the show and didn't call any other poster stupid or things like that.
As a woman who has never been battered in any way shape or form, yet who has dated so called "dangerous men," I must sincerely disagree with your, and Derrick's, belief that Teyla is an "abused woman." In fact, when I first read Derrick's post, I was quite flabbergasted and infuriated. Everything that Ronon has done, from "tying Teyla up" to "holding her hostage" to the "cheap shot" during training to his recent (and, IMO, unacceptable) behavior in this ep, is perfectly feasible, even expected, after sustaining the mental and physical trauma of the past seven years. In fact, he does not know how to behave as a normal man anymore. For seven years, he has been alone and hunted. He could not live in any society because of the threat he represented with the Wraith device implanted in his back. He has learned to think only for his own well-being. Someone mentioned "feral" and I think that is an apt term.



Teyla's consideration of his past and appreciation of his abilities has prompted her to accept his faults, with the knowledge that his behavior should improve with time. I do not see how Ronon, given his past, can be compared to any normal man living on Earth (unless you are talking about a POW who has been imprisoned for seven years with constant torture and threats to his life).



Is Ronan a woman-beater? No. Is he an alcoholic? No. Is he a man who has been traumatized to the point that he cannot appreciate acceptable behavior? Yes. Should his behavior be tolerated? Apparently Teyla thinks so. And she also realizes that the other (Earth) members of Atlantis would not think so. She is protecting him, because, at this point, he is unable to distinguish his violent and inappropriate behavior from acceptable behavior. I believe, considering his role on SGA, his behavior will improve. However, I think it would have been inconceivable that he would turn into a perfect gentleman after a month or so on Atlantis. Give him time.



As for personal attacks on Derrick, I did not view any such attack (and I have read every post on this thread). Derrick suggested a scenario that was pretty far-fetched, and did not provide adequate explanations to support such a scenario. Derrick was called on that issue, and responded with only the same argument. Should Derrick provide further, plausible arguments, I am sure they would be considered. Your defense of Derrick is commendable, but I believe, unnecessary.

Of course, this is jmho and anyone who chooses to disagree with me is certainly entitled.

PartyLikeIts1984
August 22nd, 2005, 03:23 PM
I was very happy with this epi. It certainly wasn't afraid to make you feel uncomfortable with the characters and their realtionships.

I'm wondering how soon McKay and Sheppard will go back to normal. As much as I want the married couple snark back, I think having them be all friendly and Rodney all forgiven by the next epi would be a bit of a betrayal of the emotions. I mean, they did some serious angsting and it would minimize the importance if it's all forgotten by next week.

not so ancient
August 22nd, 2005, 03:41 PM
I was very happy with this epi. It certainly wasn't afraid to make you feel uncomfortable with the characters and their realtionships.

I'm wondering how soon McKay and Sheppard will go back to normal. As much as I want the married couple snark back, I think having them be all friendly and Rodney all forgiven by the next epi would be a bit of a betrayal of the emotions. I mean, they did some serious angsting and it would minimize the importance if it's all forgotten by next week.

You know, Sheppard and Weir and everyone would be wise not to underestimate Rodney's overall level of skills and ingenuities because of this mistake. They certainly recognize that he can be overeager, but he has saved them numerous times before, he'll do so again. He's bright, and very capable.

I don't think they should delegate McKay to peeling potatoes in the galley because of this project's failures or because they think he has a flawed character.

Yes, the project failed, catastrophically, due to McKay being rash. More caution is advised in the future, but dumping on Rodney is not.

In any case, we know that they reversed the originally planned airing sequence of Trinity and Condemned, so if the writers intended to show the emotional fallout from Trinity in Condemned, I'm not really seeing it.

Steve_the_Wraith
August 22nd, 2005, 03:46 PM
In any case, we know that they reversed the originally planned airing sequence of Trinity and Condemned, so if the writers intended to show the emotional fallout from Trinity in Condemned, I'm not really seeing it.

Really?
I can't help but be a little dissapointed then. Unless they changed the order during/before filming

ToasterOnFire
August 22nd, 2005, 04:28 PM
I agree. Out of all the episodes so far I really want to see how the events of Trinity continue to affect Rodney, Weir, Shep, heck even Zelenka and Caldwell. If Condemned was truly filmed and meant to come after Trinity then I'm very disappointed that there was absolutely no fallout from anyone or even any noticeable change in Rodney.

I can only hope that we see something, anything, that gives some continuity in Instinct. Otherwise what's the point of shaking up all those relationships?

Avatar28
August 22nd, 2005, 04:38 PM
Well, I can see a little more poignancy (I think that's the word I'm looking for) in the bit about Rodney fixing the jumper to save his companions. It's like an atonement of sorts. But they may well have edited Condemned once they decided to switch the order as well.

not so ancient
August 22nd, 2005, 05:11 PM
As a woman who has never been battered in any way shape or form, yet who has dated so called "dangerous men," I must sincerely disagree with your, and Derrick's, belief that Teyla is an "abused woman." In fact, when I first read Derrick's post, I was quite flabbergasted and infuriated. Everything that Ronon has done, from "tying Teyla up" to "holding her hostage" to the "cheap shot" during training to his recent (and, IMO, unacceptable) behavior in this ep, is perfectly feasible, even expected, after sustaining the mental and physical trauma of the past seven years. In fact, he does not know how to behave as a normal man anymore. For seven years, he has been alone and hunted. He could not live in any society because of the threat he represented with the Wraith device implanted in his back. He has learned to think only for his own well-being. Someone mentioned "feral" and I think that is an apt term.



Teyla's consideration of his past and appreciation of his abilities has prompted her to accept his faults, with the knowledge that his behavior should improve with time. I do not see how Ronon, given his past, can be compared to any normal man living on Earth (unless you are talking about a POW who has been imprisoned for seven years with constant torture and threats to his life).

Is Ronan a woman-beater? No. Is he an alcoholic? No. Is he a man who has been traumatized to the point that he cannot appreciate acceptable behavior? Yes. Should his behavior be tolerated? Apparently Teyla thinks so. And she also realizes that the other (Earth) members of Atlantis would not think so. She is protecting him, because, at this point, he is unable to distinguish his violent and inappropriate behavior from acceptable behavior. I believe, considering his role on SGA, his behavior will improve. However, I think it would have been inconceivable that he would turn into a perfect gentleman after a month or so on Atlantis. Give him time.

I quite agree. Ronon's pretty rough around the edges but he doesn't appear to be quite the psychopath as alleged. Nor is he Teyla's boyfriend. Nor is she going to put up with any more of his crap.


I've sat through many a feminist jurisprudence lecture and seen many claims for what's abusive and what's enabling. The allegations don't add up to me.

Your comments about the horror that he's been through are insightful. Life around the Pegasus Galaxy is really painful, for a lot of people. Every planet's culture is shaped and poisoned by the perpetual presence of the Wraith. I don't expect them to play by our rules, because our world isn't theirs.



As for personal attacks on Derrick, I did not view any such attack (and I have read every post on this thread). Derrick suggested a scenario that was pretty far-fetched, and did not provide adequate explanations to support such a scenario. Derrick was called on that issue, and responded with only the same argument. Should Derrick provide further, plausible arguments, I am sure they would be considered. Your defense of Derrick is commendable, but I believe, unnecessary.

Of course, this is jmho and anyone who chooses to disagree with me is certainly entitled.

I reached the same conclusion.

And yet, one of the moderators slapped me with red jello accusing me of being nasty.

WTF? If I'd been nasty, why not moderate the post with the magical moderator powers? :confused:

Forget Stevie Wonder! Helen Keller could see and hear what's going on here now.

I guess I can be grateful that this isn't Condemned. If it were, I would have been sent to the island to be Wraith food.

Oh, and Viva La DISCLAIMER (http://www.geocities.com/kimonthejourney/Disclaimer.htm)

the dancer of spaz
August 22nd, 2005, 05:12 PM
*peeks into thread*

*peeks out*

*peeks back in*

*marches in*

Um... K... Hmmm...

Well, I didn't realize this was an issue until today, but I didn't quite see the abusive relationship deal. I was incredibly irked when Dex fought dirty while fighting with Teyla. But that was basically it. Ronon seems like a wildcard, a bomb about to explode. That seems to be his angle. He's got a lot of anger, but I don't think it's directed at Teyla. He slammed his freakin' knife into the table when the guy was "taking advantage" of her - that was an angry action in general, out of his... desire to help her out.

To me, Ronon's a young guy. He's kinda immature, but so are Sheppard and McKay. The only difference is, Ronon's not from Earth, and he's had to defend himself ALONE for a long time. I don't think he turned out or behaves any differently than Sheppard would have, had he been in the same situation for so long.

Also, while I don't think that providing a reason or evidence behind your opinion should be required before posting here, I think it would (a) clear up a lot of potential misunderstandings and (b) thoroughly let others know where you're coming from in your beliefs. Plus, it makes you seem that much smarter. ;)

Schrodinger82
August 22nd, 2005, 05:51 PM
Reading all the comments on here have left me with just two things to add...

1. Why did Weir trust McKay's judgement? Because he's not steered her wrong up until now. In fact he's saved their collective arses so many times with one incredible idea after another I think even she is guilty of thinking he can do anything.

Which might be true, except that this wasn't a life or death situation that required urgent planning. At the very least, Weir should have order Rodney to come back to further investigate Zelenka's claims.


2. Some people have said that Rodney's obsessiveness/actions were unrealistic. But I've got the feeling that the guy has never led an exactly realisitic life. This is the guy who built a working model of an atomic bomb when he was 11! I don't think he's had a normal life at all and I think that has screwed his thinking. He's too intelligent for his own good. He can't see the woods for the trees. He needs this knocking down to basically get him back to thinking like the rest of us mere mortals. I mean, he's likely been told all his life how amazingly clever he is. I'm surprised he's as normal as he appears to be!

Which is precisely why Weir should've brought him back the second she heard Zelenka's claims. It's not like the facility wouldn't be there when they came back, or like they wouldn't be able to restart the tests later on.

For instance, Rodney notices a sudden spike in temperature that he didn't account for, and Shepard orders him to abort. What does Rodney do? Well, the smart thing would've been to shut down immeadiately, try to re-assess his calculations, and start again. Of course, we all know what really happened, now don't we?

Schrodinger82
August 22nd, 2005, 06:08 PM
Sounds pretty boring, but wait! Let's look at what McKay accomplishes. He gets one member of the group killed, and destroys a planet and part of a solar system. The planet might have had other technology, or something else on it, that would have been of use. Maybe the destroyed wraith ships would have had something. Instead, he fails spectacularly.

Yeah, you'd think that they would have started searching the ships for parts they could salvage and reverse engineer. Weapons, engines, etc. At the very least, collect a few spare parts for the next time one of them gets trapped in a Wraith transport crystal.

Really, the entire situation was just far too big to tack on in a single episode.

Droops
August 22nd, 2005, 06:23 PM
And yet, one of the moderators slapped me with red jello accusing me of being nasty.

WTF? If I'd been nasty, why not moderate the post with the magical moderator powers? :confused:


Sounds to me like someone is trying to send a message. *shrug*

Droops
August 22nd, 2005, 06:27 PM
Yeah, you'd think that they would have started searching the ships for parts they could salvage and reverse engineer. Weapons, engines, etc. At the very least, collect a few spare parts for the next time one of them gets trapped in a Wraith transport crystal.

Right, a golden opportunity for all sorts of things. Wasted. All because of the inflated ego of one man.

No wonder Weir chewed him a new one.

Lida
August 22nd, 2005, 06:30 PM
Well in fact many people are realizing it now, especially since this episode, but part of the intention of the writers is to play with the untrustworthiness of the characters. I was just early in seeing that.

Really, so now you are clairvoyant or are you one of the writers? Care to expound further on what will happen next? Will Ronon turn on one of the SGA team? Oh wait, Ford already did that. My bad. ;)

RD is a character, a complex one, who is neither an alcoholic, nor an "abuser". He is a man with a tortured past, and that is what is being explored by the writers. And I'm sorry to disagree with both you and Derrick, but no moderation was needed as no one personally attacked Derrick. I did, however, find his remarks offensive.

Yours? Well, you really haven't said much, have you? Ugly Pig at least posted something of meaning. ;) :)

Lida
August 22nd, 2005, 06:33 PM
As a woman who has never been battered in any way shape or form, yet who has dated so called "dangerous men," I must sincerely disagree with your, and Derrick's, belief that Teyla is an "abused woman." In fact, when I first read Derrick's post, I was quite flabbergasted and infuriated. Everything that Ronon has done, from "tying Teyla up" to "holding her hostage" to the "cheap shot" during training to his recent (and, IMO, unacceptable) behavior in this ep, is perfectly feasible, even expected, after sustaining the mental and physical trauma of the past seven years. In fact, he does not know how to behave as a normal man anymore. For seven years, he has been alone and hunted. He could not live in any society because of the threat he represented with the Wraith device implanted in his back. He has learned to think only for his own well-being. Someone mentioned "feral" and I think that is an apt term.



Teyla's consideration of his past and appreciation of his abilities has prompted her to accept his faults, with the knowledge that his behavior should improve with time. I do not see how Ronon, given his past, can be compared to any normal man living on Earth (unless you are talking about a POW who has been imprisoned for seven years with constant torture and threats to his life).



Is Ronan a woman-beater? No. Is he an alcoholic? No. Is he a man who has been traumatized to the point that he cannot appreciate acceptable behavior? Yes. Should his behavior be tolerated? Apparently Teyla thinks so. And she also realizes that the other (Earth) members of Atlantis would not think so. She is protecting him, because, at this point, he is unable to distinguish his violent and inappropriate behavior from acceptable behavior. I believe, considering his role on SGA, his behavior will improve. However, I think it would have been inconceivable that he would turn into a perfect gentleman after a month or so on Atlantis. Give him time.



As for personal attacks on Derrick, I did not view any such attack (and I have read every post on this thread). Derrick suggested a scenario that was pretty far-fetched, and did not provide adequate explanations to support such a scenario. Derrick was called on that issue, and responded with only the same argument. Should Derrick provide further, plausible arguments, I am sure they would be considered. Your defense of Derrick is commendable, but I believe, unnecessary.

Of course, this is jmho and anyone who chooses to disagree with me is certainly entitled.

I agree with your analysis completely. Excellent post.

Droops
August 22nd, 2005, 06:34 PM
Yours? Well, you really haven't said much, have you? Ugly Pig at least posted something of meaning. ;) :)
I can post a picture of a chicken. Or a yak. Or corn. Heck, I can even post a picture of the Swedish Chef from the old Muppets series. Or the Arby's Oven Mitt.

They all have meaning. Which would you like?

Lida
August 22nd, 2005, 06:36 PM
I can post a picture of a chicken. Or a yak. Or corn. Heck, I can even post a picture of the Swedish Chef from the old Muppets series. Or the Arby's Oven Mitt.

They all have meaning. Which would you like?

Well, to be completely honest, I think..........the chicken! It's your specialty! :D

Droops
August 22nd, 2005, 06:40 PM
Oh what the heck. For you Lida, and all others, I give you . . . . a Spongemonkey:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/droops63/spongemonkey.jpg

DEEEEEEP meaning, very complex. So complex and full of depth that I can't explain it here. Gaze deeply at it, though, and you might go on the path to ascension. No promises though.

Droops
August 22nd, 2005, 06:41 PM
Well, to be completely honest, I think..........the chicken! It's your specialty! :D

hehe, I have to mix and match! Can't be totally predictable after all. ;)

sgatelvr
August 22nd, 2005, 07:02 PM
I agree with your analysis completely. Excellent post.

Your comments about the horror that he's been through are insightful.
Thank you both!

And Lida, thank you for the green!! :D

ShadowMaat
August 22nd, 2005, 07:23 PM
It would be a real shame if an ep discussion thread had to be shut down because people couldn't stick to the subject and decided to attack each other instead. :rolleyes:

Regarding Derrick and his "battered woman" scenario, I've started a separate thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=16055) about it and would actually appreciate Derrick's input, if he's still around. I have a hard time picturing Dex and Teyla the way he does, but I still think it's an interesting interpretation and I'd like to hear more about the why's and what's of it. To further my own understanding, if nothing else. ;)

As for McKay... I've heard some complain that he was horribly out of character and that the sheer, overwhelming mass of his ego seemed unrealistic. Now, I was one of the ones griping about the backslide in McKay's character in the first few episodes and how I felt they did more damage than justice to his character, but I felt that his portrayal in Trinity was more or less on target. I said it before- it isn't a very pretty picture we get of him, but it reads, to me, as being brutally honest.

McKay CAN get carried away. He DOES get obsessed with science. He DOES think he's smarter than everyone else... because 90% of the time, he is. And I think that, in the beginning, he was being altruistic. Or, at least, part of his motivations were altruistic: he wanted to find out what went wrong so that he could know why Collins had died... and so that he could hopefully prevent it from happening again. But after that, his obsessive nature took over and while he may have been telling himself he was doing it for Collins, it was more about himself and his compulsive need to "conquer" science, to understand everything, and to be better than everyone else. We've all gotten "caught up" in our own projects before (or I have, anyway), it's just that when McKay's involved it's on a much bigger- and in this case more dangerous- scale.

I've seen people complaining that Weir caved too easily to Shep's and Caldwell's demands. But isn't it possible that she, herself, was interested in McKay's experiment? And that it was only the knowledge of the severe danger it posed that made her hold off? Maybe that's why "convincing" her was so easy- it was something she wanted done, anyway, and in this case she was willing to allow her curiosity to overcome her common sense. :)

I do agree that she should have listened to Radek. She should have forced them to shut down the project right then and there. Curiosity is one thing, and yes, there's trusting Rodney, but with something on this scale, if there is ANY question of safety, I think that it should be investigated. After all, it isn't as if they couldn't shut it down, look into the info Radek discussed, and then start up again later if they deemed his concerns unfounded. Right? I got a sense of urgency to this whole thing, but was there an actual REASON for it?

Poor Radek. He's usually content to stay in Rodney's shadow and just pipe along with the info they've mutually gathered. If he speaks out- particularly against Rodney- it's worth heeding him, IMO. It isn't something he does lightly... or often.

I hope he wasn't TOO crushed by Weir's dismissal. Poor, lovestruck lil' puppy. ;)

Bisqwit
August 22nd, 2005, 07:32 PM
I have to say that I didn't like this episode.
Call me cynical, but almost every minute of this episode yelled to me like the episode should have been titled "McKay is irresponsible".
The episode was made to stress that point. McKay is irresponsible.
The point of the episode was that McKay is irresponsible.
And we needed a whole episode with a never-heard-before-never-hear-again technology aspect for that?

I can't recall another episode in Stargate SG-1 or Stargate Atlantis that would have been as one-dimensional as this...

(I'm only complaining about the story. The execution, the graphics, the acting, was good as almost always.)

ShadowMaat
August 22nd, 2005, 07:48 PM
I can't recall another episode in Stargate SG-1 or Stargate Atlantis that would have been as one-dimensional as this...
Revisions, Avenger 2.0, Disclosure, just to name a few. ;)

EnigmaNZ
August 22nd, 2005, 08:34 PM
"McKAY YOU BLITHERING EGOTISTICAL MORON" ah, had to say that. God, lost a honking big space gun :( We could have dismantled it, studied it, and maybe reversed engineered it *sob* Why did the Ancients have honking great space guns, but not one on Atlantis, I am begining to get annoyed at the writers. The city is hopeless. A century of war and it has a single drone launcher. How pathetic. The short arms with the circular tubs at the end should each have supported a ion cannon like the one in Trinity. Perhaps they do, and the power switch hasn't been found yet :rolleyes:

not so ancient
August 22nd, 2005, 09:05 PM
It would be a real shame if an ep discussion thread had to be shut down because people couldn't stick to the subject and decided to attack each other instead. :rolleyes:

It would be a real shock if one day you realized that you are not in fact, a Moderator, that the Moderator has power to use without explanation or apology to anyone, and without permission or prompts from you being required.

I realize you claim not to read my posts because you said, about me, that 'he' :S ought to be ignored, in a pointedly insulting post not so long ago, but perhaps one of your many friends will advise you that I still don't see "Moderator" next to your name, and that your stomping your little feet to be obeyed is assumptive of an authority you do not have.

The other thread about Dex and Teyla's 'dark side' is not needed as there is really nothing to discuss.

It would be helpful if you related McKay to what's on the screen, instead of in light of your own interpretation of past episodes trends and your opinion of your expertise at analyzing Stargate.

No, there was no need for urgency in the episode. I didn't sense that. I sensed concentrated teamwork to a point they thought they could try, and once the trial didn't work very well at all, McKay tried again, for the reasons he stated - to have something good come from a tragedy. The time passing between the discovery of the Arcturus and the okay to work on it, and the first trial, is fuzzy. After that, yes, McKay was rushed and urgent, but he wanted to *fix* what had gone wrong.

not so ancient
August 22nd, 2005, 09:06 PM
hehe, I have to mix and match! Can't be totally predictable after all. ;)

There are other poultry in the world, you know.

And....waterfowl!

not so ancient
August 22nd, 2005, 09:07 PM
I can't recall another episode in Stargate SG-1 or Stargate Atlantis that would have been as one-dimensional as this...

Um, the episode had 2 storylines.

So, maybe, uh, not so much.

Madeleine
August 22nd, 2005, 09:50 PM
It would be a real shock if one day you realized that you are not in fact, a Moderator, that the Moderator has power to use without explanation or apology to anyone, and without permission or prompts from you being required.

... I still don't see "Moderator" next to your name, and that your stomping your little feet to be obeyed is assumptive of an authority you do not have.

The other thread about Dex and Teyla's 'dark side' is not needed as there is really nothing to discuss.

Well the ironic thing is that you aren't a moderator either. And while I'll never worry about people taking on moderator actions like finding threads for us to merge (waves at R___) or telling us when a thread has an error that we should fix (waves at q___) or starting a new thread for a tangential discussion (waves at Shadow) I'll ALWAYS bristle when I see people taking it upon themselves to give another poster a ticking off.

You are not a moderator, not so ancient. You do not get to tell people off for starting a thread. Starting threads is allowed.

If you don't think her thread has anything to discuss, stay out of it. And please, if this is a personal thing, keep it private - I notice you've laid into her twice in this thread alone - then it'd probably be best if you put her on ignore, because we cannot allow personal disputes to come onto the public threads.

Thanks.

Madeleine

Biscuit
August 22nd, 2005, 10:30 PM
Anybody mind if I give the battered woman kerfluffle a pass? No? Good!

Anyhoo. The episode!

Trinity had some fantastic moments of character development. But ye gods and little fishies...by the end of the hour, I was staring at my TV screen like McKay in "Home," peering into a microscope and seeing a thousand dancing hampsters instead of a cell culture. Because there were chunks of this plot that made NO FREAKING SENSE!

Thanks to the dueling plotlines we're expected to believe that McKay and the science team could discover an amazing, but unfinished piece of Ancient technology with awesome potential; bring the data back to Atlantis; finish up the calculations and work out the bugs; return to the planet; test the device; kill a scientist and head back to Atlantis for an autopsy and an argument -- all in the time it took to get Ronon Dex drunk.

I can swallow a lot of technobabble without complaint. You tell me they can activate the ATA gene with a mouse retrovirus? I believe you! You tell me Wraith can suck out your lifeforce throught their palms? Okey dokey!

All I ask in return is for my show to adhere to some sort of internal logic. You can't spend a year convincing me that McKay is a brilliant, squeamish scientist who never promises more than he can deliver -- and then expect me to believe that he'd rush out and test-fire a weapon that could rip a hole in the fabric of the universe after LESS THAN 24 HOURS OF STUDY?

Bing tiddle tiddle bong!

I could believe McKay's obsession and tunnel vision. (His complete disregard for the new data Zelenka was offering is another matter, but okay, I'll grit my teeth and stipulate that he was totally caught up in the thrill of discovery.) I certainly believed his desperation to wring some sort of redemption or meaning out of his scientist's death.

I just couldn't buy that it would happen on such a stupidly short timetable.

Why did they do that? Running the two plots side by side was nothing but distracting. If they want to give us Dex back-story, why not devote an entire episode to Dex?

As it was, the Dex subplot suffered almost as much as McKay's. I for one wanted to know a heck of a lot more about the man Dex killed. Did he witness his betrayal? Did his taskmaster abandon him to be captured by the Wraith? Because the way the scene played out, it looked like Dex killed him based on an assumption -- if his mentor survived, he must have been because he abandoned the troops under his command. Cowardice isn't a killing offense in my book. But it must have been a blatant act of betrayal if none of the guy's bodyguards cared enough to avenge him. I needed more information -- and I really needed the show to stop jumping back and forth between plotlines. It wrecked the tension in both stories, at least for me.

Meh. I didn't care for this episode -- even though I loved individual scenes.

It would be really nice, though, if the writers decide to deal with all those new trust issues between Sheppard and McKay and Teyla and Dex in the upcoming episode. That would salvage the entire episode for me.

Furling God
August 23rd, 2005, 03:30 AM
My problem was I had already guessed McKay was going to mess it up on his first attempt, just like everybody could guess the scientist going in the corridor alone would be the one to die. So when McKay tried the second time I believed there would something more than messing it up a second time as all characters were warning, that there would be a surprise. But no it was just messing it up again as announced from the beginning.

So it was the Dex sub-plot that kept me from yawning and switching off tv. When I saw Dex messing it up for the second time too I began to feel like a slight headache. Well I admit Dex's shooting was not announced and a surprise.

I knew repetition was a stylistic option. I just didn't get the artisctic pleasure from this double repetition of messing it up. The whole episode rang like "Ein Fuss untereinander" to me, and it was scary, but I didn't get the point of making it scary. It was like descent to hell without any purpose in hell.

As far as McKay's realism is concerned, well I can admit his blindness and arrogance is consistent with the character. What I found hard to take is a whole top notch executive team still admitting him as a senior member and watching him do (twice).

FoolishPleasure
August 23rd, 2005, 06:18 AM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/droops63/spongemonkey.jpg

DEEEEEEP meaning, very complex. So complex and full of depth that I can't explain it here. Gaze deeply at it, though, and you might go on the path to ascension. No promises though.
That spongemonkey looks like a dangerous man, and is probably an abused woman as well. . .is probably an egotistical alcoholic to boot, and would love to have Weir hollar at "it" in her private office.

Yep. I saw this episode. I hope this Friday's is just as interesting. :D

Lida
August 23rd, 2005, 06:39 AM
That spongemonkey looks like a dangerous man, and is probably an abused woman as well. . .is probably an egotistical alcoholic to boot, and would love to have Weir hollar at "it" in her private office.

Yep. I saw this episode. I hope this Friday's is just as interesting. :D

How could I have missed the Spongemonkey in the past episode? Hmmm, I guess I must have missed alot then. Oh well, there's always next week. (Slowly climbs the winding staircase of Tara). ;)

Um Foolish, do they allow hermaphrodites on SGA?????? :p Or is Sponge just a cross dresser? :D

TheGreatCatOfRe
August 23rd, 2005, 07:00 AM
Two me, this was an episode that made two characters look good.

The first, and the big winner of the night:

Teyla.

The second was Caldwell, more on that in a minute. But first my thoughts on the overall dynamic.

Our team gets split into two. Sheppard and McKay go to a planet with a really neat weapon and a potential power source that could revolutionize science. Exciting stuff!!

Teyla, with Dex in tow, went to negotiate about . . . food.

Sounds pretty boring, but wait! Let's look at what McKay accomplishes. He gets one member of the group killed, and destroys a planet and part of a solar system. The planet might have had other technology, or something else on it, that would have been of use. Maybe the destroyed wraith ships would have had something. Instead, he fails spectacularly.

Now let's look at Teyla. In spite of Dex causing all sorts of potential problems, she successfully carries out a diplomatic negotiation that results in a more useful food source for her people and for Atlantis. Now of course, Atlantis has the Daedalus. But what happens if it gets destroyed? You need food, pure and simple. The new energy source would be nice. Food is absolutely essential. While mundane, Teyla's efforts have a far more postive impact on the entire operation.

Many here, including me, have argued that Teyla needs to do more. She did it here. She showed leadership and diplomatic skills, just like Weir, but with a warrior ability in her as well. I still saw that stupid purple top that she wears, but going past that she showed to me a lot more leadership ability and was able to get the job done.

McKay was McKay, Sheppard was Sheppard, Weir was Weir. To me, none of these characters developed much beyond what we had before. Not that I wasn't entertained, but I didn't see much change.

I DID see change in Caldwell. Far from being just someone who is angry and in opposition to everyone, he seemed more reasonable and was extremely helpful there at the end. Of course he'd like to keep tabs on things, but he saved Shep and McKay. I saw good character development in him this show.

Dex, we got to know more about him. To me, it was fine, but not really critical. I would expect such behavior given that most of his people are dead and he was hunted for sport for some time. He's not going to conform anytime soon, and I don't expect him to do so. Thus, his behavior wasn't surprising. If anything, it was predictable.

Overall a good episode. Pretty good, maybe even very good. Not spectacular or over the top, but solid.
What he said!

Really now, this is essentially what the show was about. Teyla being successful, Rodney...well not! Can't have every character progressing in character on each eps. This is one of the areas that SGA is so different from SG1, not everyone gets along all the time

Jeffer
August 23rd, 2005, 07:01 AM
I was thinking last night after watching the show that the energy they were using or the way it looked very similar to what Doc Oct was doing in Spider Man even the way it expanded look like what he was doing in that movie did it look like that to any one else

jenks
August 23rd, 2005, 07:06 AM
When I first saw it I thought, hey, where did the Ancients get a Tollan ion cannon from? :S

Jeffer
August 23rd, 2005, 09:50 AM
yes it did resemble that alos but i don't think the cannon was acient only the power source

Ancient-Jaron
August 23rd, 2005, 10:41 AM
It looked like a mini-Tollan ion cannon to me, but I didn't recognize that at first. But like has been mentioned before, I think the Ancients were just powering native devices.

Eoin
August 23rd, 2005, 10:46 AM
agreed, i think the ancients were just powering the native peoples weapon, with there super dangerous power source :)

Metarock Sam
August 23rd, 2005, 10:56 AM
This episode was ok but with the Rodney side of things it seemed doomed from the starta and you could tell what was going to happen (although it was funny when you could hear him gettting told of by Dr Wier). But the great points were it had the ace chunky dude from Lost in it and it had Ronon dex and his Blaster thats just as cool as school.

snaillady
August 23rd, 2005, 11:11 AM
Time to put my $0.02 in (even though the US/Euro conversion is killing me!).

The whole Ronon/Teyla debate: I'll take a pass also, except to comment that the seemed to go into an alternative time dimension, because it seemed like they passed a day or two on the planet while a whole month had to pass for Rodney and the gang on the planet...especially in the music montage scene in the laboratory after McKay got the go-ahead to continue more extensive research--notice how people's clothes change--especially the fact that Zelenka goes from a lab coat to an expedition coat and others have also obviously changed clothes, at least once.

McKay's arrogance: actually, I'm gonna go right out and say it: AWESOME!!! Now, while I've only got a PhD in one of those "voodoo" science fields, I have been fortunate(?) enough to have met several laureates--Nobel and otherwise (Howard Hughes Medical Institute, AAAS, etc). If anything, David Hewlett is *underplaying* McKay's arrogance. Really. Going on the grounds that McKay is supposed to be a Nobel-level research mind, he really has a lot less of the arrogance than I've experienced from researchers of that level. (except for this last episode, and his guest roles on SG-1). Read some of James Watson's autobiographies if you don't believe me. :) And the arguments between McKay and Zelenka, in both the music montage (where they're scribbling on a clearboard with a marker and screaming math stuff at each other) before the death of Collins and later on when Zelenka brought up his concerns to Weir were priceless! And again, absolutely dead-on. Cringeworthy, yes, but really great science-acting (hmmm...I'm making up phrases now). And from what I've experienced about the "hard" sciences (physics, math, engineering), the BMIS (big men of science--yes, I'm female, and no, you don't hear of BWIS) of those fields are even more arrogant (you could say astronomically so :D ). And the absolute god-worthiness of McKay's belief--understandable. In fact, one of my few long-standing gripes about SG-1 is Carter's lack of scientific snootiness--don't even get me started about the end of season 8. I just write it off that she's had to tone it down since she's in the military.

As for the interactions between McKay and Sheppard: You'd think Sheppard would have heard of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and known enough to realize that a physicist would *NEVER* say something was absolute!

Back to lurk mode...

Keffler
August 23rd, 2005, 12:16 PM
I got this question from a reveiw


I wonder if there will be any fallout to this destruction other than McKay's failure and his need for others to believe in his abilities. What if that solar system was inhabited? This a little more serious that the lead scientist screwing up

Will anyone ever notice that there is now a solar system missing? And if you time it right what a light show it would be in the sky, but about 6 years later.

Qasim
August 23rd, 2005, 12:25 PM
A light show lol

I dont think the solar system was inhabited or else they would have mentioned it :)

jenks
August 23rd, 2005, 12:47 PM
^^ Maybe they didn't know

Eoin
August 23rd, 2005, 12:49 PM
True they would have mentioned if the solar system was inhabited, if it was i dont think mckay would be himself ever again, he would of gone crazy or something if it was his actions that killed countless 1000's

Sabre
August 23rd, 2005, 04:21 PM
The fact that the solar system was not inhabited means nothing to me, so it was earth at some point, 10000 years are nothing in planetary scale, a inhabited world at 500 grade celsius today and poisonous gases, can be as charming as earth when million years passes, so IMHO, exploding a whole solar system is a big big tragedy

Sabre

Sol4rDust
August 23rd, 2005, 06:35 PM
m`kay was an idiot ...
all those around him told him he was wrong... he didn`t listen
how could he imagine he could perfect ancient technology ...
how could he assume they misscalculated and he can compensate
MANUALY....

I think he should go and do something else Manualy cause he surley
can`t do it in any other way.....

and why didn`t they even think about asking the Asgards?... its clearly they are more intelligent.... their intellect can`t even fit in a human head...

atlantis has major plot holes ... i liked it at the beggining but it hasn`t grown since then ...

JanusAncient
August 23rd, 2005, 06:35 PM
I would like to know more about the Derandens, whatever their name was, why were they so important to the Ancients, that they would attempt to make use of the most powerful power source, were they all on the path to ascension, or were they the most advanced race in Pegasus, other than the Ancients and the Wraith. Tollan Ion Canon, yes very similar, I wonder if they had phase shift technology too, why didn't they just power the weapon using ZPM's, what did the Ancients figure that was overkill, up until the point they killed everyone on the planet.

creed462
August 23rd, 2005, 06:41 PM
zpms could be rare

Deputy-Assistant-Second-Prime
August 23rd, 2005, 06:42 PM
m`kay was an idiot ...
all those around him told him he was wrong... he didn`t listen
how could he imagine he could perfect ancient technology ...
how could he assume they misscalculated and he can compensate
MANUALY....

I think he should go and do something else Manualy cause he surley
can`t do it in any other way.....

and why didn`t they even think about asking the Asgards?... its clearly they are more intelligent.... their intellect can`t even fit in a human head...

atlantis has major plot holes ... i liked it at the beggining but it hasn`t grown since then ...
As obvious as it was that McKay was being irrational, Sheppard should have stopped him like he promised Weir. That is the biggest plot hole in this story.

GoldenSG-1
August 23rd, 2005, 08:45 PM
i'm rewatching "Trinity" on the SGA marathon and couldn't help but think the weapon on the planet was like the movie "Spiderman 2" Its a giant sphere of energy thats constantly expanding and changing molecules.

It also can't be stopped plus mckay was like dr. octopus with being obsessed with his work and thinking this could be a new power source LOL

unowhoandwhy
August 24th, 2005, 06:52 AM
As obvious as it was that McKay was being irrational, Sheppard should have stopped him like he promised Weir. That is the biggest plot hole in this story.

I completely agree with you, although the ending wouldn’t have been nearly as interesting (and wouldn’t have that big, beautiful kaboom, ;) ). As someone who has suffered from feeling responsible in some way for a colleague’s death, Shep should have at least considered the fact that Rodney was trying to make Collins’ death have some sort of meaning and wasn’t nearly as certain about his theory as he pretended. I am not saying that I expect Shep to be able to diagnose something like that, but he should have done a better job of looking at things objectively because he knows Rodney is completely incapable of that. We all know Rodney lacks the ability to self-censor and look at his own wild thoughts objectively.



Shame on Shep for letting Rodney go through with it and bigger shame on Weir for not standing her ground. As to Rodney’s public dressing-down, I had this to say on another forum:



Although I do enjoy seeing Rodney get lambasted for screwing up (again... in a huge way, I mean who thought he would blow up 5/6 of a whole SOLAR SYSTEM??!!), I think that it was highly unprofessional and completely out of character for Weir to do it in such a public place. That was just wrong in so many ways. It was funny, don't mistake my appreciation of the moment, but dressing Rodney down like that where everyone could hear was wrong in a lot of ways. It should have been done in private where no one else could hear.



Since Elizabeth allowed Rodney to continue, even against her own judgment and the word of Zalenka (who might not be AS smart as Rodney, but is pretty frakkin smart and more level-headed!), she shouldn't have been surprised when things went so badly wrong. And she should definitely take a good portion of the blame. She even said that Rodney had to be saved from himself and it is her responsibility as leader of the expedition to do just that!

It's a bad leadership practice to scream at your subordinates in the hearing of others. Even when they deserve to be yelled at, as Rodney did. The only place you can get away with that without repercussions is in the military, where unquestioning obedience and an acceptance of loud, public dressing-downs is either drilled or beaten into you from the very beginning.

I really wanted the Elizabeth's character to be the strong, intelligent and very capable diplomat they said she was, but I keep getting disappointed. The writers don't seem to know how to write real, strong female characters (look at how one-dimensional and wooden they made Teyla look for the first season and she is only now growing less one-dimensional when she is written to interact with Ronon) and they seem to have relegated what should have been a great character into the role of in ineffectual leader. Her own second-in-command not only argues with (almost) her every decision, he occasionally defies her orders and seems to suffer no consequences!

It's not that I don't like the character or the actress, I am just sick of the SG writers having NO idea what a strong female leader should be like. It is very frustrating!!!

John Preston
August 24th, 2005, 07:19 AM
It goes a little something like this--

McKay :: "Okay, so the Ancients, the people who /made time travel devices and the stargates/ were unable to use this device safely. That doesn't matter! I CAN! Sure I don't understand how to use everything that the Ancients have made, and I sure as heck can't make my own Stargate...but that's not necessary! I can do what they couldn't!"
Weir :: "Sure thing Rodney! Have at it!"
Sheppard :: "I be watching you carefully. Yessss my precious."
Zelenka :: "EVERYONE! McKay is wrong! If he does this there is going to be this massive explosion! All of this and this and this and this!"
McKay :: "LIAR! JEEAALLOOUUUSSS! I can do it!"
Weir :: "Alright, so Zelenka doesn't matter. We can /ignore that he just warned us all/. We can /ignore that you're acting irrationally/. Go ahead and blow up the solar system!"
McKay :: "WOOO HOOOO"
Sheppard :: "Yes! Go ahead and do it even though Zelenka just told us to not do it and you're acting unstable!"

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 24th, 2005, 07:58 AM
I felt that (Rodney's) portrayal in Trinity was more or less on target. I said it before- it isn't a very pretty picture we get of him, but it reads, to me, as being brutally honest.

McKay CAN get carried away. He DOES get obsessed with science. He DOES think he's smarter than everyone else... because 90% of the time, he is. And I think that, in the beginning, he was being altruistic. Or, at least, part of his motivations were altruistic: he wanted to find out what went wrong so that he could know why Collins had died...

Yup, brutaly honest, but there's always some wonderful redeeming quality that just makes a saint out of this a$$hole of a soul. Rodney not only felt bad about Collin's death, but defended the man's honor as a brilliant scientist before Caldwell's suggestion that Collins made a fatal error. For all of Rodney's apparent fear of Zelenka's mind(I think that's why he puts him down so much) he does recognize his peers as equals... well... sorta... sometimes... okay, after they're dead... :p




I've seen people complaining that Weir caved too easily to Shep's and Caldwell's demands. But isn't it possible that she, herself, was interested in McKay's experiment? And that it was only the knowledge of the severe danger it posed that made her hold off? Maybe that's why "convincing" her was so easy- it was something she wanted done, anyway, and in this case she was willing to allow her curiosity to overcome her common sense. :)

I do agree that she should have listened to Radek. She should have forced them to shut down the project right then and there. <snip> I got a sense of urgency to this whole thing, but was there an actual REASON for it?



I think that there was a reason, though I don't fully understand the politics of it: Possession. For some strange reason it seemed that Weir's people getting the thing to work would be like, nine tenths of the law of ownership or something.

Caldwell had already communicated with Earth about the powersource/weapon and he was confident that the Pentagon would take over the site. Someone else will have to clue me in to how MacKay getting it up and running would keep the Pentagon from taking it over....

Also, there must be some pressure to get a permanent defensive power against the Wraith, since it is only a matter of time before their ruse(Seige3) is uncovered by the Wraith.

Aaaand...(I never shut up :o ) To tie Weir's actions (inactions?) to the ep title, Trinity: the show was based on actual events that took place here in the Real World.

The war in Europe - which front had given the impetus to the Manhattan Project in the first place - was over. The war was still raging in the Pacific, and I won't argue the merits of ending that theater early, saving lives, etc, but it did give pause to some of the people on the project. A major reason for continuing was military ambition and scientific obsession, IMO.

The day of the(actual, Real Life) test, the scientists were worried about various aspects of the test, including whether or not the atmosphere would ignite :eek: . The metereologist played the part of Zelenka in the real Trinity situation, warning the powers that be that the weather was all wrong for the test. The test went ahead in spite of all these factors.

So, right or wrong, Weir is at least consistent with what the leaders of the real life Trinity test chose to do. I'm pretty sure that was the point.

starfox
August 24th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Okay, so I re-watched this episode last night, and after watching all six episodes of the season in a row, I got something else out of it.

McKay's sense of urgency. Look at what's happened so far this season.
The Siege III: Everyone's rushing to prevent imminent destruction. Lots of people die. McKay saves the day by making the city disappear.
Intruder: The higher-ups get back from a nice stay on Earth, just to be nearly irradiated by a Wraith AI virus.
Runner: McKay is forced to shoot Ford, has Ford threaten to kill him, and is strung up a tree.
Duet: McKay gets another consciousness in his head, and has to save the day before Cadman fades into nothingness. Oh yeah, and he has a seizure.
Condemned: Shot down and held hostage by a bunch of convicts led by a murderer, McKay is forced to repair a damaged and nearly irrepairable jumper before his team is killed by their captors.

So out of the five episodes previous to this one, McKay has a near-death experience in every single one, and is rushing against time to save the day in four of the five. In "Siege", "Duet", and "Condemned", it's McKay who ends up saving the day, and you might as well throw "Intruder" into that list, too, because Sheppard couldn't have saved them all if McKay beamed him out of the virus-ridden F-302.
Plus, you have the first two parts of "The Siege", where McKay and Zelenka were both hopped up on stimulants building bombs and trying to fix the chair to remote-control the jumpers.

I think it's fair to say that Dr. Rodney McKay is just a little bit stressed right now. He's beginning to get used to having the weight of Atlantis on his shoulders.
And then Collins dies.
As someone said earlier in the thread, did I just hear a "snap"?

McKay has been running on a "we need this done yesterday" schedule since before the siege began, and I think it's fair to say that Elizabeth has, too, as well as the rest of the team. He's not used to having time to back up and analyze data anymore. Not saying that this justifies his actions, just looking for an explanation. He's been running on top speed too long, and I think that Collins' death, one he considered himself directly responsible for, pushed him over the edge of logic.

As for Elizabeth's urgency.
She already had to fight to keep John as Atlantis' military commander, and I'm guessing that with the Wraith threat, a higher military presence on the base was suggested. And then there's Caldwell, who I'm guessing just flat-out doesn't like her. Her position is being threatened, and she makes a move to keep power. It's a stupid move, but she felt that she could trust Rodney and John, and maybe in another circumstance she could have, just not this one.

Back to Rodney again. He'd been screwing up before this. Intruder: He forgets the F-302s, then forgets the rouge F-302. I know that it's easy to forget the little things, but it's a screw up nonetheless.
Duet: Makes mistakes in his calculations and causes a big, sparky mess. Zelenka blames it on the stress of having Cadman in his head, but I'm tempted to just say stress, period.
Then we have "Condemned", which while not a major McKay screw-up, is close enough to the Genii hostage situation in "The Brotherhood" that it should have required a session or two with Heightmeyer. I know it's a TV show, but jeez, people, ya think someone would have noticed that this is a bit more than the average human being can take.

So yeah, if you look at previous eps, there was a definite lead-up to this one.


Now, because I should have said this the first time I watched this ep, and I didn't:
I love smart Sheppard in this episode. He assists McKay just as well as a member of the science team would have, possibly better because he is the only one besides Zelenka saying that aborting might be a good idea the first time they test the weapon. I also love that he's the voice of caution in the briefing with Elizabeth and Caldwell, and he tells McKay to abort the second time they test it. See, Shep has a sense of caution. Plus, the understanding of the scientific side needed to assist in the testing adds a bit of insight into his character. We knew that he was smart (the Mensa thing from a Season 1 ep), now we know that he can use that intelligence in a practical way. McKay may get whole episodes to explore his character, but Sheppard's little scenes are just as telling. Joe Flanigan did a great job in this one, because even without a large amount of dialouge he still manages to carry across a vibe of "I am smart, you know."

Overall, yeah the whole testing in the time it took Teyla and Ronon to do a trade mission and murder a guy was rather unbelievable, but I get why they felt rushed, and I chalk the rest of the level of rush to hasty writing.

And that was much longer than I originally intended. *looks at post* Yipes.

prion
August 24th, 2005, 05:32 PM
McKay's bound to crash eventually, well, he did, in "Trinity." Not quite a breakdown by our normal TV standards but that's as close as he'll get, I think. He's been basically THE person to go to to save everyone's butts, and in season 2, as someone pointed out, he's had a bad time - people try to kill him, friends try to kill him, marines inhabit his body. bad time all around.



I think it's fair to say that Dr. Rodney McKay is just a little bit stressed right now. He's beginning to get used to having the weight of Atlantis on his shoulders.
And then Collins dies.
As someone said earlier in the thread, did I just hear a "snap"?

Heh, so did he!

As for Elizabeth's urgency.
She already had to fight to keep John as Atlantis' military commander, and I'm guessing that with the Wraith threat, a higher military presence on the base was suggested. And then there's Caldwell, who I'm guessing just flat-out doesn't like her. Her position is being threatened, and she makes a move to keep power. It's a stupid move, but she felt that she could trust Rodney and John, and maybe in another circumstance she could have, just not this one.

I saw the episode like an onion, peeling back layers and watching trust being manipulated and lost by all the characters... Rodney asks John to trust him, in turn John asks Weir to trust him, and Teyla trusts Ronon and he uses her to kill someone. Just a bad time all around for everyone, but a good episode.

This seems to be a love it or hate it episode, judging from reaction on various lists.

But, I loved it. They've been working on Rodney's 'breakdown' since "Seige III," if you really look at it.

Furling God
August 25th, 2005, 12:58 AM
I saw the episode like an onion, peeling back layers and watching trust being manipulated and lost by all the characters... Rodney asks John to trust him, in turn John asks Weir to trust him, and Teyla trusts Ronon and he uses her to kill someone. Just a bad time all around for everyone, but a good episode.
...
But, I loved it. They've been working on Rodney's 'breakdown' since "Seige III," if you really look at it.

Very true. But I still don't understand the artistic intention of the writers by peeling back layers of trust.

watcher652
August 25th, 2005, 01:18 AM
Okay, so I re-watched this episode last night, and after watching all six episodes of the season in a row, I got something else out of it.

McKay's sense of urgency. Look at what's happened so far this season.
The Siege III: Everyone's rushing to prevent imminent destruction. Lots of people die. McKay saves the day by making the city disappear.
Intruder: The higher-ups get back from a nice stay on Earth, just to be nearly irradiated by a Wraith AI virus.
Runner: McKay is forced to shoot Ford, has Ford threaten to kill him, and is strung up a tree.
Duet: McKay gets another consciousness in his head, and has to save the day before Cadman fades into nothingness. Oh yeah, and he has a seizure.
Condemned: Shot down and held hostage by a bunch of convicts led by a murderer, McKay is forced to repair a damaged and nearly irrepairable jumper before his team is killed by their captors.

So out of the five episodes previous to this one, McKay has a near-death experience in every single one, and is rushing against time to save the day in four of the five. In "Siege", "Duet", and "Condemned", it's McKay who ends up saving the day, and you might as well throw "Intruder" into that list, too, because Sheppard couldn't have saved them all if McKay beamed him out of the virus-ridden F-302.
Plus, you have the first two parts of "The Siege", where McKay and Zelenka were both hopped up on stimulants building bombs and trying to fix the chair to remote-control the jumpers.

I think it's fair to say that Dr. Rodney McKay is just a little bit stressed right now. He's beginning to get used to having the weight of Atlantis on his shoulders.
And then Collins dies.
As someone said earlier in the thread, did I just hear a "snap"?Nice to know somebody reads my posts! ;) Snap, indeed!

This was my point exactly. Rodney has been going full tilt since he arrived on Atlantis. Not knowing who exactly died in The Siege, we've seen more scientists die in Atlantis than military personnel. Two scientists died on the Daedalus and didn't even make it to the city.

This is a science expedition. While Elizabeth is in charge overall, she's really there to support the scientists in their mission. She's there so it isn't a military operation. John is in charge of the military contingent, but they're really in Atlantis to support the scientists. Even Carson's medical unit is there mainly to keep the scientists healthy. Carson's other work on the Wraith genetics puts him in the science category.

So being in charge of the scientists is not an easy thing. The whole reason behind the expedition is for the science. Rodney being in charge of the scientists has the heaviest burden on his shoulders.

And he not just in charge of the administration of the science team. No, he goes out on missions and gets subjected to life threatening situations. He has to come up with brilliant solutions to save lives and even the city itself.

It's no wonder he didn't stop to consider Radek's data. He's so used to having to get things done yesterday that he didn't even consider he should take the time to look it over. He was so obsessed in this miracle power source that could solve all their problems, that he didn't analyze the whole situation. And remember what he said to John on their second trip back to the planet while they were setting up the last test? "I won't let you down." It was a personal promise between two people. And Rodney failed big time on his side.

But, I really blame Elizabeth for this. Taking John's recommendation, which had no scientific backing, just a personal belief in Rodney, was foolish. But Rodney has been the Answer Man so many times. And John's gut feelings have been right so many times. So I give Elizabeth that. But when Radek gave her his data and said there was a problem, she should have stopped it right there. She is ultimately in charge and no matter what Rodney said, she should have over ruled him. She said earlier that there are times when she has to protect Rodney from himself. Why did she chose this time not to do that? Why did she choose not to trust herself?

And Elizabeth had the bad judgement to yell at Rodney where others could hear. Really, what kind of manager does that make her? Was some of that anger for herself? Didn't she know how much Rodney would be hurting already from his own guilt? She heard how he felt about Collins. She knows how he must feel about all the others.

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 25th, 2005, 06:04 AM
But, I really blame Elizabeth for this. Taking John's recommendation, which had no scientific backing, just a personal belief in Rodney, was foolish. But Rodney has been the Answer Man so many times. And John's gut feelings have been right so many times. So I give Elizabeth that. But when Radek gave her his data and said there was a problem, she should have stopped it right there. She is ultimately in charge and no matter what Rodney said, she should have over ruled him. She said earlier that there are times when she has to protect Rodney from himself. Why did she chose this time not to do that? Why did she choose not to trust herself?

Again, I can't help but make the comparison to Real Life leaders and the decisions they make despite strong warnings not to proceed along a certain path. If Rodney had been correct and the project had succeeded Weir would be remembered for her gutsy decision to back Rodney.


And Elizabeth had the bad judgement to yell at Rodney where others could hear. Really, what kind of manager does that make her? Was some of that anger for herself? Didn't she know how much Rodney would be hurting already from his own guilt? She heard how he felt about Collins. She knows how he must feel about all the others.


I agree with an earlier post that suggested that this was probably done for artistic reasons, to bring the A and B plotlines together. I simply call it artistic license on the writer's/director's part and cut the actor some slack.

In my imagination I see this scene as having started out quietly between Weir and Rodney and then escalating as Rodney's arrogance got the better of Liz and she blew her top. It happens to the very best of us.

As for hurting Rodney's feelings, I don't see the need to coddle the man. He just destroyed part of a galaxy :eek: and what is he doing with Weir? He's argueing the finer points of his actions - "probably 5/6 of a galaxy rather than 3/4, and it's not an exact science and bla bla bla." He isn't being very contrite in this scene, IMO.

Sabre
August 25th, 2005, 06:36 AM
"probably 5/6 of a galaxy rather than 3/4, and it's not an exact science and bla bla bla." He isn't being very contrite in this scene, IMO.


Fortunately it wasn't 5/6 of the galaxy, "just" a solar system :)

Now that nobody is listening to us, let me tell you that I quite love this analysis of behaviours (as last week's debate about the penal island) much more than the weapons/technology/whydon'twenukethegenii discussions. I wanted to thank all of you for this, but don't tell the others, eh?

Sabre

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 25th, 2005, 07:56 AM
Fortunately it wasn't 5/6 of the galaxy, "just" a solar system :)

D'OH! Sorry, but, you know... galaxy, solar system, there's a difference? :p :p :p


Now that nobody is listening to us, let me tell you that I quite love this analysis of behaviours (as last week's debate about the penal island) much more than the weapons/technology/whydon'twenukethegenii discussions. I wanted to thank all of you for this, but don't tell the others, eh?

Sabre

:D Methinks it's the frustrated author in us that makes us dig so deeply. Even the remarks about Teyla being a battered woman - right or wrong - just screams for the need to be written into a fic. For some, Teyla could be the new battered Danny.