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GateWorld
July 26th, 2005, 05:05 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/907.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/907.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">SG-1 SEASON NINE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/907.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none"><B>EX DEUS MACHINA</B></A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 907</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
SG-1 must investigate when evidence suggests that there are still Goa'uld hiding on Earth -- including a former System Lord. Tensions between Earth and the Free Jaffa continue to mount.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s9/907.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

NakedJehutyV2
August 26th, 2005, 05:21 PM
lol clones????


wasn't it wierd seeing ba'al using his human voice? then his goa'uld voice before they killed a clone.

such a good ep

AGateFan
August 26th, 2005, 05:29 PM
Im not feeling the Baal clones. The only clones I like are of the Asgard variety. :rolleyes: Oh well, at least they didnt kill Baal he deserves a death as good as apophis.

Kleptomaniac
August 26th, 2005, 05:34 PM
Uhh..can't wait to watch the ep :D

YOu should probably think about putting spoiler tags on this thread before someone b!#$%@s atyou.
Me on the other hand i don't mind. I figured any mention of baal in the 9th season thread is bound to be a spoiler.

Bobthespirit
August 26th, 2005, 05:36 PM
Hmm...that was a bizzarre twist at the end. I guess they could be clones that have been growth-accelerated, and then they'd have the genetic memory of Baal. This is interesting.

Garrett is an interesting character. I hope more is done with the tension between the Jaffa and the Tauri because the smart thing to do is for them to ally against the Ori.

Mitchell though..he seems to serve no purpose in the plot. He only gets the lines that could be given to anybody, and he doesn't really do anything. He's just kind of there. Mitchell needs to do something!! If he's going to be a half-worthy character. He has as much characterization as Ford did in the first season and as much of a role in the plot.

jree
August 26th, 2005, 05:37 PM
Well that was different, cool Ba'als running around. First time Mitchell saved the world (this season) and the team is back. Teal'c was awesome.

Redwall
August 26th, 2005, 05:38 PM
". . .unless you're planning on giving the American public a Stargate primer?"

Oh, man.

LOL4JACK
August 26th, 2005, 05:51 PM
As an episode it was strange.... I really don't like Gerak and can't understand how the Jaffa turned their backs on Teal'c and Bratak and allowed somebody as Gerak to be their leader....

Loved the twist at the end, not the clone part, but the last scene with the Clones... great and wonderful Paul/JM...

And as a shipper... I can only say, Woooohooooo!!!!!!!

Seastallion
August 26th, 2005, 05:51 PM
wow. I really loved this episode..! :D

It was just too cool..! Ba'al on Earth as a multi-cloned businessman... how bizarre..! A rather interesting change in lifestyle... but he actually seems to enjoy it... :eek: Then there is that chic..! I'm thinking she must be a Goa'uld too... or something. Having all those Ba'al's around though... must keep her busy... ;) :rolleyes:

They actually beamed up a whole building... how cool is that?? :D Although, I suppose in the grand scheme of things, a building is far less complicated than a living thing. :)

AGateFan
August 26th, 2005, 05:56 PM
Mmmmm. Will have to think about this one. First impression was it was ok.

1) Teal'c got some lines Yay!!
2) Female Jaffa on the counsule and she was cool, not some amazon\spandex wimpfied one either. Yay!!
3) Baal was back Yay!!!. He was cloned, uhg ok dont get into clones other then asgard but ok, kinda cheesey but whatever and least Baals still alive. Now he can have a good death later. Yay!!! Plus Garak gets to look like an idiot Yay!!
4) BTW Garaks an idiot, boo!! but Im sure SG-1 will get the better of him one of these days Yay!!!
5) Patches scene. Kind of cool but a little too understated. but the team is now back YAY!!!
6) Sams personal life... still uninteresting to me. But Im sure the shippers are happy with the nod and they can read whatever they want into it.
7) you can beam a building? and no one noticed? That is really stretching plausable deniablility or reasonabls suspension of beleif...
8) Cincinnati Bengals stink and may have influenced my opinions of this ep.

Overall it was a fair ep. The team is back but Multibaal is kind of stupid but he is pretty for people to look at and hes got a nice voice so I guess theres that. :)

ShimmeringStar
August 26th, 2005, 05:56 PM
Hmm...that was a bizzarre twist at the end. I guess they could be clones that have been growth-accelerated, and then they'd have the genetic memory of Baal. This is interesting.
But the question is do symbiotes clone as well as human host bodies do? Remember the clone killed by Gerak did do the little glowing eyes number... and I'm assuming the "real" Ba'al was the one who walked out of the room to go to bed. But having said that... it was an interesting twist to have that many Ba'als. Quadruple the fun! :D

Hmmmm.... so Sam's "not exactly" single anymore. (poor hopeful Agent Barrett! :p ) However I won't be hedging any bets about there ever being any more dialogue explaining those two words in further detail. Not 'til the end of the season, if ever.... :(

Uhhmmmm... a question - in a post-911 world, who's (in that fictional SG Earth) going to buy that a really tall building in a really big city is going to vanish into thin air without debris everywhere after the alleged explosion? Or that amateur astronomers wouldn't have noticed a big explosion in the sky at *exactly* the same time the tall building exploded and put two and two together. :o

Excali5033
August 26th, 2005, 06:01 PM
Haha oh man, that was nuts. Jaffa storming Corporate America...hilarious.

ShimmeringStar
August 26th, 2005, 06:04 PM
It was just too cool..! Ba'al on Earth as a multi-cloned businessman... how bizarre..! A rather interesting change in lifestyle... but he actually seems to enjoy it... :eek:*grins*

All the better for his sneaky back-door world domination plans! ;) No need to come blasting your way in when you can gain control through the less obvious methods of finance and business and control of government agencies through the Trusts still-in-place connections! :D (I mean would Ba'al every truly retire? :rolleyes: Although one of those clones {pouring drinks Ba'al} looked *really* casual and laid back... he must be the Ba'al that takes the cool vacations to the tropical islands on the behalf of the rest of the clones.....

the fifth man
August 26th, 2005, 06:21 PM
Pretty good episode. Glad to see Baal didn't go out so easily, at the hands of the Jaffa. It was an interesting twist at the end, too. Definitely unexpected. Now we'll have to kill him a few more times. What's up with Sam not being single, hmmmm? And Mitchell, yay, saved the day finally. I loved the scene leaving the briefing room, with the sg-1 patches. Very cool to see. Can't wait for "Babylon" in two weeks.

Maxum
August 26th, 2005, 06:30 PM
I have to rewatch the episode, but I thought it was good; not great, but good.

Although, I know that some are anxious for Mitchell to do more, I think they integrated him better in this episode than in previous episodes. He actually had input and came up with a solution at the end. He will be showcased in the next episode, and I think from there, everything will move along in terms of his character. As a long-time SG-1 fan, I'm glad they didn't cram his character down my throat right off the bat. I think, personally, they've done a good job of easing him into the team. (Although, I'm sure alot of Ben Browder fans feel it was way too slow) Ben's a great actor, and I'm really looking forward to the next episode, I believe it's "Babylon," and Mitchell is going to be front and center.

As for tonight's episode. I liked how the whole team was showcased. Everyone got to participate. I thought it was interesting that Landry kept putting the science twins together, Daniel and Sam, and the two warriors together, Teal'c and Mitchell. That actually made a lot of sense to me.

Loved the "patches" scene. I'll tell ya, I kept trying to see their patches just before that scene to see if it had the "1' on it, and I couldn't tell. Therefore, I was thrilled when Mitchell said, "Wait a minute," and reached into his pocket and pulled out the patches. I thought it was sweet how he sort of asked Sam's permission with the look on his face, then he slapped it on her shoulder, and then sort of held it for a second with a smile and moved on to Teal'c. The whole scene was great.

I'm sure Jack/Sam shippers were happy with the "not really single" part. I've never been a J/S shipper, but I was kinda happy about the nod to Jack.

As for the building disappearing, I agree it was extremely obvious, but at the very end when the reporter is trying to give the low down on the public's reaction, they cut off her explanation. It ended with her referencing a "consipiracy due to the lack of rubble ... " Interesting.

Frankly, I think this episode was all about Gerak and how he has cemented himself as leader of the Jaffa with a very different agenda than Teal'c had intended when he helped free his people. Teal'c was very disappointed at the end, and I felt for him. He spent years trying to free his people, and now that it's happened, they are once again being manipulated by another man out for power, and Teal'c knows this.

So, to sum it up:

Great cast interaction
SG-1 officially reunited
Sam/Jack probably dating
Gerak is definitely in control of the Jaffa; Teal'c not happy
Baal has been cloned four times? (I think I saw four)

I give it a 7 out of 10. Babylon looks really good. Ben Browder is going to be great.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
August 26th, 2005, 06:31 PM
The episode was as good as Beachhead, but not better.
Loved the scene with Prometheus and the Moon.
The clones were odd, though.

GhostPoet
August 26th, 2005, 06:36 PM
Awesome episode...I REALLY enjoyed it. Really feels like the whole team is back together. (well, except for one person..but mitchell was awesome)

Really enjoyable episode..right on par with last weeks. :)

I'd also like to add I LOVED seeing the Jaffa on our world...in the city..in an office building..it was so freakin awesome. I want to see more of that!! :)

the fifth man
August 26th, 2005, 06:36 PM
I'm still getting over the fact that finally sg-1 is a team again. Yay!!!

Shivan
August 26th, 2005, 06:36 PM
I'm sure all the Ba'al obsessed fans were quite pleased at the end. ;)

Well, this is the first SG:1 eppy I have seen this season, and I didn't necessarily hate it but it was just too different for me.

Ugh, I guess complaining about change 7 episodes into the season is just lame, but I can't help it.

I'm curious to see where they go with this.

sgcfann
August 26th, 2005, 06:37 PM
"Team Ba'al" look out America! I liked the episode overall. Gereatric-gak is a butthead who seems to become more so with every episode. He needs to choke to death on a Jaffa Cookie or something. I wonder what the native origin of Ba'als' host is? Hearing him speak in human and all. I wonder if he likes barbequed Ball Parks? :D

AGateFan
August 26th, 2005, 07:05 PM
oh and I saw Siler, YAY!!!!!

starfox
August 26th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Loved the "patches" scene. I'll tell ya, I kept trying to see their patches just before that scene to see if it had the "1' on it, and I couldn't tell. Therefore, I was thrilled when Mitchell said, "Wait a minute," and reached into his pocket and pulled out the patches. I thought it was sweet how he sort of asked Sam's permission with the look on his face, then he slapped it on her shoulder, and then sort of held it for a second with a smile and moved on to Teal'c. The whole scene was great.

My thoughts exactly. They couldn't have done that part any better.


I loved that Mitchell saved the day. It gave him something to do other than toss off one-liners. It makes him into a character I could like and not just a stand-in because the show needs a fourth. I've been on the fence about Mitchell, and the character won me over in this episode.

Sam's "not exactly" when asked if she was single: yes! I don't consider myself a shipper, but this was a good move. A nod to Jack and the elimination of any romantic-angst on the Sam front in one fell swoop. Yay.

Daniel's "you better be damn sure about this" in the car on the stakeout? Loved that line, it was a nice show of his character and how much he wanted to get Baal. You didn't really get any emotion about Baal from the other human characters on tonight's ep, but that was a hint.

Teal'c made a good political move at the end. I liked it.

And the Baal clones at the end? That scene demands fanfic. It really, really does.

starellen1
August 26th, 2005, 07:16 PM
I really loved this episode. Baal, what a hoot! Loved the pin striped suit. Beaming the building was very cool. Mitchell giving Daniel, Sam, and Teal'c the SG1 badges back was neat. The conversation between Barret and Sam very interesting. Loved it, loved it, loved it!!

kharn the betrayer
August 26th, 2005, 07:19 PM
hmmm what did I like about this episode

1)Baal Baal Baal and more Baal
2)Tea'c wasnt just wallpaper
3)Walter


also didnt any one find the ending a bit.....


I mean 4-5 Baal clones and 1 woman in an appartment :S

what I didnt like...

my freind would make little squeeky noises when ever she saw Baal as she thinks he is hot...

my freind screaming when ''Baal'' was killed

my freind making realy loud squeeling noises when it showed all the Baal clones at the end

Ancient-Jaron
August 26th, 2005, 07:23 PM
I liked this episode. The major reason why is simply because the Orii are not in it. Its back to what SG-1 was on a lot of levels, even down to Mitchell bringing the team back together.

Maybe I'll get to see more of that. Down with the Orii!

Maxum
August 26th, 2005, 07:29 PM
I love the Ori! Great villans.

Token
August 26th, 2005, 07:42 PM
I'll give my two thumbs up to this episode. Poor Barrett. LOL. "Not exactly" is music to my Shipper ears!! Thanks, JM!!

Baal clones? Wonder which one is in charge? Only one babe for all those clones? ;) Anyway, I hope to get more info on the cloning "thing".

I agree that in a post 9/11 world a "disappearing" or "exploding" building would not be a small bit of news. Living around alot of chemical plants, everytime there is a leak the first thing said on the new is "this doesn't seem to be a terror attack".

I didn't like the "patch" scene. It seemed like Sam was agreeing to be under Mitchell's command. I still believe Sam should command SG-1. I don't like that he calls her "Sam". Does anyone know what Sam calls Cam?

MarshAngel
August 26th, 2005, 07:45 PM
Baal is still a hottie. I'm glad he's not dead. It would been a waste of a good Goa'uld. His 'death' at Gerak's hand was anticlimactic.

I also don't consider myself a shipper but that "not exactly" comment was the right way to go about it. Don't need more detail than that really. I'm also glad they mentioned Cassie. They needed to do that as well.

Once again Mitchell was pretty useless unless you count the patches bit. He has dialogue but he hasn't contributed anything to the plots this season so far. Finally there's an episode that doesn't center around Daniel and Vala and the only reason he seems to exist is so everyone else can have someone to talk at. Give the man something to do, please.

There are many ways this episode was good, critically but I still didn't enjoy it as much as the previous ones.

It was nice seeing a female Jaffa in a position of power.
Gerak's an ass.

I have to wonder when you zap a building out of a major city, how long you can keep this ginormous secret under wraps? Especially when you have ships landing on skyscrapers, Jaffa running around the city... this secret is definitely on the verge of being exposed.

The clones were interesting, not sure how I feel about that. A guy's really got to love himself to keep that many of him around. I had to smile at the Ba'al wearing shorts; not exactly the image I have of Goa'uld.

Mio
August 26th, 2005, 07:53 PM
Ah well. At least Baal is one of my favorite system lords, and now we have like half a dozen of him. I have to say that the teleporting of the building was pretty cool.

I definetly liked the '600 channels and nothing to watch' comment.

GoldenSG-1
August 26th, 2005, 07:54 PM
i got a star wars vibe when teal'c said to pendergrass take them to the far side of the moon lol

JanusAncient
August 26th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Okay, this is my take on the episode. Teal'c was brilliant, his strategy as a politician, was exactly how Teal'c should conduct operations, after all that he has learned. Mitchell, bringing the team back together, and saving the day, with an obvious but appropriate idea. The part where Sam said "not exactly," was interesting, I admit I wanted to know what she meant by that comment.

Gerak, this guy is really beginning to annoy me, sending ships to Earth, endangering civilians, as if he did anything to free the Jaffa, Sg-1 did more than all the Jaffa combined in that respect, so that guy needs to hurriedly get his just desserts. I did feel sorry about the Jaffa who were needlessly killed, because of Gerak's need for more power.

Now, I will move on to Ba'al. He was well played by Cliff, that woman, his assistant was very nicely prepared, lol. The clones, what I am trying to figure out is, not if one the clones in that room was the original Ba'al, but if he is actually on Earth, or in the system that Teal'c mentioned in the episode, I mean if he can make clones, why contain them to one planet, why he is conquering Earth from within, more clones can be attempting to regain his power from other worlds.

Loved this episode, especially the new woman, she was just fantastic.

FoolishPleasure
August 26th, 2005, 07:59 PM
The good side:

Good Teal'c scenes. . finally!

Gerak. . I believe we are SUPPOSED to be irritated with him. Like Kinsey. At least that is how I'm taking it. He certainly has a "dark" side to him which makes him a bit more interesting.

I like Ba'al - interesting without the Gou'ald accent. Would love to see him working with Kinsey down the road (I know that stinker is alive out there somewhere).

The blonde chick with Ba'al. My husband wants her phone number. :D

The down side:

While I like Ba'al. . .a little goes a long way. As it stands now, Ba'al could die every week and we would still have. . .Ba'al. Yawn.

Carter. . I've always liked your hair, but. . .a little lighter on the gunky gel next week. The head looks like it hasn't been washed in a month. And we had to be subjected to that awkward convo about Pete. :rolleyes:

Mitchell. . .PLEASE!! TPTB hired a very good actor for this part. .GIVE HIM SOMETHING TO DO!!!

We "beam up" a huge building in the middle of a city and no one notices? Gas explosion? Yeah right. That was just plain BAD folks.

Grade: C (which is better than BSG's episode, which was riddled with more holes than swiss cheese). SGA was best tonight.

Seastallion
August 26th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Baal clones? Wonder which one is in charge? Only one babe for all those clones? ;)

Yeah, I noticed that too...! :p I guess Ba'al is one really kinky Goa'uld... :rolleyes:

On another note... I thought it was just shameful how that Hak'til Jaffa lady stabbed Teal'c in the back like that...! :mad: The Tau'ri helped her people far more than most Jaffa... Shame..! :mad: (maybe she was standing in for Ishta... or perhaps Ishta didn't want to be on the High Council.) Either way... That was just wrong... she could have let Teal'c in on what was going on. Instead she led him into a trap... and I used to like her. Bad lady..! :mad:

:D Sorry... just had to vent. I really loved this episode. *Thumbs Up*

whatswiththehairtealc
August 26th, 2005, 08:12 PM
Mitchell though..he seems to serve no purpose in the plot. He only gets the lines that could be given to anybody, and he doesn't really do anything. He's just kind of there. Mitchell needs to do something!! If he's going to be a half-worthy character. He has as much characterization as Ford did in the first season and as much of a role in the plot.

I know i keep seeing him and thinking. HUH!! look! jon Criteon did get home! and now hes a col in the airforce!! but seriously, they really need to give him a personality, so we can see him as someone other than a RDA replacement.

Maj_Cliffhanger
August 26th, 2005, 08:16 PM
First impressions... Good episode with a classic feel, despite the lack of Jack. Daniel and Sam both did the exposition number, Teal'c was wonderful. And Mitchell finally had something to do. (Strange how some people see that and others don't?)

Ba'al was a treat. We saw four at the end, but how many are there really? Is Ba'al even actually on Earth? Remember, Teal'c said he was spotted in another star system a week before. It won't take too long for poor (not!) Garak to be terribly embarrassed if there are Ba'al's running all over the galaxy! LOL! 'Course, myself, I'm thinking the original is on Earth and probably the one in the end that the VP/girl brought the drink to on the couch. And you just know the real Ba'al has some hold over all his clones... If TPTB try to make out the girl is a goa'uld too, I'll be upset because Sam should have sensed it when they were together.

Okay, well I need to sit down and watch it again, then I'll give a proper review...
_
Maj_Cliffhanger

Osiris-RA
August 26th, 2005, 08:17 PM
I'm beginning to believe that TPTB are unconsciously sabotaging thier own show. At the slightest hint of action and interesting-ness (aka Ba'al) TPTB go into full force attack, sniffing out the interestingness with big guns, big action, big time, forcefully and purposefully dredging out the source of coolness and exterminating it.

Well, apparantly, they caught themselves in time cause this one rocked! Ba'al really spiced things up but I'm just sayin - why can't they leave the guy alone??? The world needs more big-time business tycoons like that! He just want's to make money! Is that a crime??? I thought it was a free country for cryin out loud!!

Anyway, the ending was great - I mean, who wouldn't want clones of ones favorite former Goa'uld lord? Heck, if they'd make a few of Apophis, that'd be great too. :D Tonights ep just showed that the Goa'uld and Stargate were meant for each other. A baddie that gets on SG1's nerves, teached them morals whilst torturing them, smiling cockily as they escape near doom at SG1's hands. I mean, they're like an ex-husband and wife who keep bumping into each other and even they hate each other like Kane and Abel, they LOVE to hate each other! They're real character's together and while they whump it out, cuss it out and blast it out, we just feel their charisma together crackle off the screen! Not like those crusty ol Orii who have a real communication problem far as I'm concerned. I mean, Sg has NO compatibilty with the Orii far as I'm concerned.

See, baddies and Goodies are like an old married couple. Sure, they get on your nerves, but you still love 'em! SG1 and the Goa'uld are like chocolate and coconut, Peanut butter and Jelly, Shrimp and A1 steak sauce, Frick and Frack, Black and Blue, Adam and Eve, Bugs and that 'wascawwy wabbit' guy, Air and lungs, bread and crust, shall I continue? Or do you all get the picture? Ok then. Anyway...

A few nitpicks however.

1. No stargate in sight on 'Stargate:Sg1' :rolleyes:
2. They beamed the builing up, right? That's not exactly a cover-upable...is it? I mean, it beamed up. Disappeared. There was no explosion. I don't have to be Mulder to see it was beamed up. Even Scully wouldn't be that daft. am I missing something?
3. The "P" word was mentioned. I hate the "P" word. It's annoying. And was that agent coming on to Sam?? HANDS OFF BUBBA, SHE'S THORS, CAPISCE???
4. The General decided to move in kinda fast didnt he? At MY old school...:p (magic school bus joke :p )
5. Gerak SUCKS!!!! But that's a good thing in his case. :D
6. darn, I just forgot. Well, it'll come to me...

Nicepicks:

1. Looks like Sam's hair is taming itself. Good work! :p
2. Daniel SHAVED!!!!
3. T SPEAKS!
4. Daniel SHAVED!!!!!!!
5. OMG, BUILDING BEAM UP AND GO PLOOIE IN SPACE, YEE HAW.
6. Ba'al still sounds hot dude. :D (though now that I hear him a second time, he seems a tad nasal...BUt anyway...:D:p)
7. Ba'al as business tycoon...oh, that'll be a great season arc! WHOOT!
8. Daniel SHAVED!!!!! (though now his contacts/glasses thing is annoying me...:S)
9. The greatest part of it all? CLONE BA'ALS! Oh yeah....we need more clones'n'things. Mm hmm. Great stuff.

So, waaaaaayyy better than most of the eps of S9.

Mongo's Girl
August 26th, 2005, 08:20 PM
I loved it to. The patch scene was great, especially the extra pat on Sam's arm. I was so happy for Mitchell in that moment. :)

This was Teal'c's ep to me. He really shined. I loved his comment to Landry about if Ba'al was dead, there wouldn't be any issues with the counsel.

I think the nod to Jack/Sam was just perfect.

They called the Chief sergeant again. That bugs the crap outta me! :mad:

I don't know if I can wait 2 weeks for the next episode. :(

AGateFan
August 26th, 2005, 08:24 PM
I'm beginning to believe that TPTB are unconsciously sabotaging thier own show. At the slightest hint of action and interesting-ness (aka Ba'al) TPTB go into full force attack, sniffing out the interestingness with big guns, big action, big time, forcefully and purposefully dredging out the source of coolness and exterminating it.

Well, apparantly, they caught themselves in time cause this one rocked! Ba'al really spiced things up but I'm just sayin - why can't they leave the guy alone??? The world needs more big-time business tycoons like that! He just want's to make money! Is that a crime??? I thought it was a free country for cryin out loud!!
.

Hes an illegal alien....hahahahahahahahahahaha.... alien get it hahahahahahahahahahaha ILLEGAL ALIEN hahahahahahaahahaha........... I crack myself up :D ....ok maybe its not that funny ;) :p

Nienna
August 26th, 2005, 08:29 PM
Poor Teal'c. I got the feeling at the end of the ep that he was grieving for what had become of his people. From noble warriors with pride (even as slaves) to elitist bullies and puppets to a dictator. What a heartbreaker. :(

"So, you're single now?"
"Not really"

Now, I'm a shipper, but did anyone else read this as, "you're a nice guy but I'm just not interested right now, I have my work." Or was it just me? :p

Cloned Ba'al. Not sure what I think of this. Now, I like Ba'al, but not that much.

Mitchell hasn't had much to do true, but I kinda like this slow move of him into the team. I love Ben as an actor, but one of my biggest peeves is when a new character shows up and instantly gets major story time at the expense of the veteran characters. Now if it stays this way the rest of the season, then I'll be annoyed.

Garak is an overblown windbag and a xenophobic bully, who hopefully will politically hang himself given enough rope. I just hope he doesn't do too much damage in the process.

mo24
August 26th, 2005, 08:31 PM
I really liked the episode as a whole. I thought the feel of the show was very well done. It's a tough call, but I think this one might be my favorite episode of all of S9, and possibly even S8 too.

It was good to see Baal again. He was one of my favorite system lords, and wearing a tie and suit just seemed to fit his character perfectly in tonight's episode. Smugness, ambition, and self preservation all characterize Baal to the T. The same could be said about many corporate CEOs which Baal seems to emulate in the episode.

When I watched the beginning of the episode, the covering of the topic of the NID being compromised immediately caught my interest. I'd been hoping they would finish that story line off, since they never really fully completed it in the prior seasons as far as I know. But instead of concentrating on that, the show instead seemed to center almost entirely on Baal. Other than him and the woman and the Goa'uld the Jaffas captured, little else was said on the subject. Maybe it was just due to the time constraints on the show.

There were a lot of improvements in the tonight's episode compared to previous episodes. Mainly, the writers were representing SG-1 as a team much more than they had been lately. It's no longer "The Daniel and Vala" show, and they appear to be getting it back down to its roots, spreading a significant amount of air time between all members of the team, and doing it in a way that fits great into the story. The story also had a lot of twists and turns in it that really kept it interesting, and that's always a big plus.

The ending was well done, but the showing of the clones at the end really surprised me. By the way it ended, it would appear that they are breaking the season up into two different storylines: one with the Ori abroad and one with Baal & friends on Earth, something that I don't believe the SG-1 series has done often, if ever. It should be interesting to see how both are played out as the season progresses and which one becomes the predominant story.

majorsal
August 26th, 2005, 08:36 PM
really good ep! :D

poor teal'c... he's finally gotten the dream of all jaffa (freedom from the goauld), and then he has to watch his ppl fall apart by the hands of someone almost as bad as the goauld.

baal on earth. ha! :p i wonder just how many of him there are? and just why did he clone himself???

i have a feeling baal's existance on earth is going to be a major player somewhere down the line.

so, once again barrett wants to ask sam out. and once again, sam turns him down because SHE'S WITH SOMEONE. hmmm, wonder who?.... *whistles the s/j happy tune*

one thing i don't really understand is why sam, teal'c, and daniel decided to officially rejoin sg1? mitchell just decides to give them the patches, but how did he 'know' they wanted to rejoin? we find out officially why sam left the sgc (taking care of cassie), so is cassie's prob over with then? did daniel say he wanted back? and teal'c? i would have liked to have seen the scene where they made this decision. well, maybe sam deciding to stay on at the sgc was what made mitchell... yeah, i'm remembering the way he handed sam the patch, and her nodding sweetly that she'd accept the patch and offer to rejoin. so i guess daniel and teal'c just follow? (still would have liked sam leading sg1... :( )

so all in all, a pretty good ep. i can say without a doubt my fave part was sam's confirmation that she's not single (again). yeah! :D


sally :D

Dave Thomer
August 26th, 2005, 09:45 PM
This episode does seem to rely more on previous backstory than the other episodes so far this season. Since I'm about 1/2-3/4 familiar with that backstory, I could keep up, but it didn't have the "It's a whole new show!" feel. Which, I'm sure, a lot of the long time viewers are happy to see. :)

I do like the way the Goa'uld are being treated here - not a super-major threat anymore, but not something to be ignored. It's a nice way of letting that part of the story evolve into something else.

Teal'c's tension within the council is a great plotline, but I think that the producers are dropping the ball with it a little bit. It just doesn't feel right to me to see Teal'c accept an SG-1 patch from Mitchell and make his home on Earth in the very episode where he's trying to maintain some level of influence in the council. I don't blame the other Jaffa for thinking he has divided loyalties - he does!

And count me in as someone who likes the way Mitchell has been gradually introduced. He has taken a leadership/command role on a number of occasions, he's come up with solutions to problems, and he's built/developed connections that helped him bring SG-1 back together. It works for me. Do I want to see more of him? Sure, since he's the guy who doesn't have eight years of backstory behind him. But I'm cool with where we are for now.

macktheknife
August 26th, 2005, 09:51 PM
This was a headspin episode. In a good way. Awesome ep. Ba'all all round! That was crazy fast episode.

Even if they did beam a giant building away, and have 2 people run over a jaffa, and have a firefight inside an office building. I wonder what happened to that guy playing poker or blackjack or whatever it was.

kadosho
August 26th, 2005, 09:52 PM
What to bring up first..

(1)Team
Noted- "Patch Scene", it felt like a mini-tribute was happening. Plus it signified the team was back together. Even though this ep everyone had to work as a tag team, the decision paid off. And it gave us a new look at what's going on and personality.
*Daniel as we know is a bit impatient with waiting too long..
*Sam's noted relationship, few key hints. But its great that its being mentioned
*Teal'c can be a trustworthy leader & speaker. An avatar for his people, even though some may not listen.
*Mitchell, good egg, cracks under pressure. (but crack, as in wisecrack)
(we're just totally missing this character's depth, we really want to know more about Mitchell.)


(2) Enemy
+Between Gerak & Ba'al, its difficult to decide on who's a better opposition.
+Gerak's position carries huge influence, and pushing aside Teal'c's discussion's. Put matter into his own hands to gain acclaim for his actions.
-we saw what that lead to
+Ba'al's return, most excellent. There is so much to be said. For one, he is a dignified character, and could very well blend in. Its surprising just how he came up with the idea.

(3)Clone a lil dream of me
Its something how such an idea can push things further. Maybe its a takeover, or another plan at hand. But can't deny, it must be pretty cool to have a few extra versions of yourself, to handle the dirty work. Hey, at least its easier than having servants die.

But it also seems that Ba'al has resolved to a somewhat normal life. Far different than the rest of the fallen lords. Honestly wondering what his agenda might be on Earth. If its to reconcile, or sinister.

GatetheWay
August 26th, 2005, 10:33 PM
Weird... Thats what this episode was. I mean the whole Jaffa thing on Earth seemed really stupid and made the Jaffa look stupid. I mean they were trying to do this coverly without the Tauri knowing so they send fully alienly armoured Jaffa (forhead showing and all) with STAFF WEAPONS to take out Baal. Wouldn't the more logical choice of been Tauri clothing with hats and zats instead and keeping their cargo ships cloaked?!

Why couldn't Promie spot a WHOLE building with naquidah mixed right in to it's frame work? That was never explained.

Why did Baal even bother to tell them WHERE the bomb was? He already had his threat over their heads, he could of just given them the count down and that would of been it.

Was the NID originally infultrated by Baal?

How come Sam did not sense all the Goauld's in the building when she was there? Unless that ability is gone now, Jolinear was awhile ago.

How did no one notice a huge building disapearing in a great flash of white light in the middle of urban Seatle? And for that matter it appears that nothing is too big for the Asgard transport beams making them an ex deus machina indeed. :rolleyes:

If Baal was truely a buisness man now, why did he plant the bomb in the United States? If it had gone off he would still have to live there and a terrorist act like that could not been good for the economy.

And finally the thing that really just pushed me over the edge with this episode (which says a lot since I'm VERY forgiving to TPTB) were the Baal clones. What a dumb and cliche way to end the episode. I've always had a problem with clones in scifi. Writers always treat then like props and ignore that they are human beings that have the same desire to live like any other. Considering Baal's personality, I doubt those clones would be so gracious to just be used and sacrificed by the real Baal.

These are only the things I can think of off the top of my head.
So over all the more I think about this episode the more I loath it. It's probably one of the worse SG episodes though some in seasons 7 and 8 were pretty bad. Things I liked: Seeing Baal again, was great with out his voice too and the Teams back! Yay! :D... Thats about it.

IMForeman
August 26th, 2005, 10:51 PM
Baal is officially the coolest Gould ever. :D

Beaming up a whole skyscraper seemed a bit of a stretch. though.

-IMF

priornavalperson
August 26th, 2005, 10:54 PM
How come Sam did not sense all the Goauld's in the building when she was there? Unless that ability is gone now, Jolinear was awhile ago.



Remember that Goa'uld that Jonas Quinn was dating in season 7? She worked for Baal amd had a drug she injected herself with which prevented Sam from sensing her. I bet all Baal's Goa'ulds and clones were using the same drug.

tsaxlady
August 26th, 2005, 11:07 PM
Okay initial reactions


Teal'c talks
Daniel is on speed again when he talks
We have an SG-1 again instead of just an SG-Me
Ba'al
More of a team episode
Ba'al
Gerak - the new Kinsey
Ba'al
Liked the scene with Sam and Barrett
Oh yeah did I mention Ba'al

Giantevilhead
August 27th, 2005, 01:01 AM
The Jaffa council is a real mess, maybe that's why the Asgard didn't wipe out the Goa'uld.

They should have had a better cover story for the disappearing building. They should have at least sealed off the area for a week or two.

Plus beaming up the building wasn't that much of a stretch considering how the Beliskner was able to beam up 3 pyramids an Jaffa camp and an army of jaffa in about two minutes.

Cikak
August 27th, 2005, 02:36 AM
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but I really loved the scene, where the Jaffa storm Ba'al's building and the firefight between security and Jaffa. It was funny seeing Jaffa shoot up cubicles. But who cleaned up the bodies? Sam made it seem like it wasn't the government.

And to people asking why people didn't wonder why there was no debri, the news report Ba'al was watching indicated that there was some debri, that I guess the government put there.

AGateFan
August 27th, 2005, 03:23 AM
Yeah, I noticed that too...! :p I guess Ba'al is one really kinky Goa'uld... :rolleyes:

On another note... I thought it was just shameful how that Hak'til Jaffa lady stabbed Teal'c in the back like that...! :mad: The Tau'ri helped her people far more than most Jaffa... Shame..! :mad: (maybe she was standing in for Ishta... or perhaps Ishta didn't want to be on the High Council.) Either way... That was just wrong... she could have let Teal'c in on what was going on. Instead she led him into a trap... and I used to like her. Bad lady..! :mad:

:D Sorry... just had to vent. I really loved this episode. *Thumbs Up*

Funny, I didnt read her actions like that at all. She seemed to be standing up for an alliance with the tokra (and presumably the tauri). She got the council to arjourn so that Teal'c could speak with Garak in private. She gave Teal'c the information about Baal being on Earth and what Garaks plan was (which was true). And at the end she jumped in and told Teal'c that Garak had told them the truth (which was also true). I think she jumped in because Garak was sitting back letting Teal'c hang himself with his own words (damaging Teal'cs pride\image). The only thing she didnt do was openly stand against Garak, but it looks like that is political suicide for anyone that does. Better to have her continue on the concil leaking info to us. ---- well thats how I read it anyway, I guess it could be that she was a Garak mole, but I didnt see it.

BTW I dont think Garak actually told the concil the truth until after the Tauri discovered his mothership. He probably wasnt going to tell them, then knew that Teal'c would tell them and took the pre-emptive action of telling them first.

Jonzey
August 27th, 2005, 03:47 AM
Great ep. I really liked the whole cloning thing- How they hinted throughout the ep at there being more than one Baal. Like Teal'c's comment that he had been sighted on another planet, or when Daniel saw him get into the car while he was doing a live video interview miles away, or how he spoke with an un-Goa'ulded voice from time to time and could survive the symbiote poison.

Though I'm guessing it was the original Baal who died, since he was the only one with a Goa'uld voice. I'm assuming the cloning technique was similar to that which the NID used in season 7's ''Ressurection'', only perfected so the Goa'uld is always in charge of the body.

SophieTucker
August 27th, 2005, 04:04 AM
As regards the building, the area had been evacuated so there were no "eye witnesses" and they apparently beamed in some rubble because the news caster was saying there were complaints the amount of rubble seemed insufficient.

I'm still not sure how the cloning thing is supposed to work with a symbiote.

I guess I am the person that actually wanted Sam to get together with Agent Barrett. Who knows what that "not really" meant?

sgatelvr
August 27th, 2005, 04:05 AM
Well, this was a good ep - not my favorite (I actually like SGA better for the first time ever). With that said, however, I will point out a few things I liked (and some I didn't ...):

http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif Teal'c with a cool storyline, and damn was he ever sexy! :D Loved the speech before the council - logical, powerful, awesome!!

http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif The team back together - I liked the whole patches scene. Sam accepting the patch, Teal'c staring at Mitchell *beat* *beat* *beat* finally the very slight nod (yay, he's in!!)

http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif Building built with naquida - cool idea. Loved seeing Ba'al, :D and loved his accent (slightly scottish? Maybe?). Wasn't digging the clones. We'll see where tptb go with this.

http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon13.gif DJ speed talking. It was pretty obvious (and ridiculous) when they were in the briefing room (Sam-normal speed speech, Mitchell-normal speed, Daniel-totally in fast forward, Teal'c-normal speed.) Whatever!! Give DJ a bit of Xanax or Valium or something!!

http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif Beaming up the building - that was pretty cool. I don't find it so farfetched as others - after all, the Asgard were able to beam up three ships & a whole troop of goa'uld. And, I do recall mention of some rubble in the news report (or did I dream that?)

Anyway, I don't really like Earth-based eps. It was nice to have Prometheus involved (so at least there were some STARS in Stargate), but I would rather have seen some gate travel in STARGATE. :(

http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon13.gif Gerak is just a bit too obnoxious: too power hungry and irresponsible. Why do the Jaffa follow this loser? They must just miss having a a$$hole to follow, I guess ... :p

Okay. Well, I give the ep 7/10. http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon13.gif Hate to have to wait 2 WEEKS before Babylon!! Want more Mitchell!!! ;)

Scandrea
August 27th, 2005, 04:13 AM
Though I'm guessing it was the original Baal who died, since he was the only one with a Goa'uld voice. I'm assuming the cloning technique was similar to that which the NID used in season 7's ''Ressurection'', only perfected so the Goa'uld is always in charge of the body.

I wouldn't bet the farm on that just yet. Isn't there an episode coming up with Anubis clones? I'll pass on judging that until I see if they have the voice, too.

This was a really good ep- I am a Ba'al fan, so it was good to see him again, and get the hint that I'll be seeing more of him in the future :). I'm also a very minor Sam/Jack shipper, so I was happy to get the hint that they were together. Happy probably doesn't describe it- bouncing up and down in my chair does.

Gerak is a far better villain than the Orii- I think we could go another whole season without seeing a prior with him around. He's one of those guys you just love to hate. I really felt for Teal'c when he pulled the stuff he did.

The only thing I got frustrated with was the cover story for blowing up the building. An entire building vanishes in the middle of downtown! I mean, who is actually going to believe the gas line deal? Maybe this will come up in a later ep.

Kalliope
August 27th, 2005, 04:41 AM
"Over 6 hundred channels and nothing to watch" - definitely the best line in the entire episode. I miss Vala.

Mio
August 27th, 2005, 04:57 AM
I'm still a little dissapointed that we didn't destroy the Ha'tak behind the moon. Prometheus has vastly superior shields in comparison to anything the Jaffa nation could possible throw at it. (It stood up to Anubis's flagship for a considerable amount of time. What further evidence do you need?) They were a hostile invasion force, after all.

jyh
August 27th, 2005, 05:00 AM
I thought this episode was PRETTY BAD. It seemed like the writers threw away the usual "Writing for Stargate" guidebook, which always made for smart, classy writing and style, and fished way down into the "cheesy sci-fi" guidebook.

First off, I don't really remember how the Trust was 'infiltrated' by the Goa'uld. I remember them (Trust) trying to kill all the Goa'uld with their little bomg thingy, that only killed symbiotes, but I'll have to go back & find out how the snakes came back.

Anyway, I was finw w/ the ep... right up until I saw the Jaffa ship uncloak right over the city's office buildings. I mean, PUH-LEEZE!!! That was so out-from-left-field that I couldn't get past it to take anything else seriously.

Then, the whole Ba'al thing.... how he came to Earth (again, he did this HOW??) and was working w/ the members of the Trust, and within nine months had become so powerful. That's straight out of those 'cheesy sci-fi' movies I mentioned earlier, in which you're not supposed to ask questions like 'how' or 'why' or 'who,' you're just supposed to accept that what you see is true. (Look, I made a rhyme!!) I suppose the whole question of background checks, social security numbers, and prior histories on earth are just an annoying detail that can be glossed over. Yeah, I'm sure the Trust took care of all that... that's convenient.

The 'building as the bomb' things... (by the way, way to spoil it for everyone, Sci-Fi... Sam's statement that the building is the bomb was in the previews all week, and sort of was a major plot point. But it didn't really BOTHER me, I just noticed it, is all) Whose idea was it to build a building as a bomb. Ba'al's? That makes no sense, the building would have been underway by the time he got to earth. (Anyone who has watched a building being built in a downtown large city knows how long that takes.. they don't go up in six months!) And what about the poor executives who disappeared? One was tortured by Gerak, but did we hear what happened to the other?

Also, even though there was some 'team' interaction w/ SG-1, it wasn't too much. Mitchell was riding shotgun for Teal'c, and Daniel & Sam did their own stuff. Mitchell STILL didn't have much to do, except the writers allowed him to be the one who came up with the 'big idea' at the end. Woohoo. I'm still waiting for SG-1 to be a real team, go offworld, just the four of them, like in the old days, so Mitchell can actually LEAD them. Splitting into groups of two isn't teamwork, and being on the Prometheus isnt' teamwork either. Teamwork is built when you have only your buddies to depend on, watching their six as they watch yours.

And finally, the piece that put the whole thing over the top for me, was the "Ba'al-team." Yes, the infamous clones. I thought that was extremely cheesy and cheap sci-fi. It *was* cool that Ba'al was somehow able to be more than one place at a time, but having THAT MANY clones was too much. Once again, a technology we've heard nothing about (except for the Asgard) shows up conveniently to be a thorn in our side. Nevermind the fact that reall cloning doesn't produce an exact full-grown replica. Cloned beings (Dolly the sheep, the kitten, etc.) start out as embryos and are born just like their 'parents' and have to grow up in the normal fashion. They don't spring to life full-size. (And don't tell me it's a different, more advanced type of cloning that we have on earth... that's just silly and too convenient.) One thing could have possibly saved this concept for me: if the clones had been visibly inferior or flawed. I don't mean flawed physically, but just not as strong or mentally sharp. In other words, they would have fooled someone from far away or with just a few words, but closer contact would reveal that they're not quite right.

On the other hand, I was glad to see Agent Barrett again. I think Sam should dump Old Grumpy and take up with him! Poor guy, he seemed pretty smitten (still). And the patch scene was good... altho who knew those things tear off so easily?? I thought they were sewn on. And I too tried to see what was on the original patches Mitchell tore off. Maybe it just said SGC rather than SG-1. Also I loved Mitchell's "Kiss" comment... too funny!!!

I really have loved Stargate SG-1 from the beginning, and I tend to give it the benefit of the doubt. Last season a lot of people complained that too many episodes were earth-bound, but I didn't jump on that bandwagon. I always WANT to like SG-1. The first few episodes of this season (the Vala episodes) tried my patience because I thought she was TOO involved w/ SG-1 and too much the focus of the episodes. I was SOOOO glad to see Carter come back. But this episode just seemed like the writers dipped into the bucket of sci-fi cliches and fished out some convenient contrivances. How many bad sci-fi movies have we seen in which aliens appear in a city or town, and nobody has noticed them or the big ship that streaked through the sky? Or the movies in which non-sensical science is used to explain the sudden influx of beings nobody has ever seen before? In those movies you just can't and don't take it seriously. But what I like about Stargate is that it's always been just on the farthest edge of being possible. How do we really know that there isnt' such a device inside the bowels of Cheyenne Mountian, with people going on secret missions? As long as the action (fights, attacks, etc) is offworld, we can believe it might possibly be true. But when an episode like last night occurs, it goes from the being 'within the realm of being maybe- possible' to the side of being just another sci-fi show about the earth being invaded by alien beings.

Sorry, I have to give this a 2 out of 5, and I hope the writers do a better job next time. Looks like they'll be offworld. YAY!

Jonzey
August 27th, 2005, 05:12 AM
And finally, the piece that put the whole thing over the top for me, was the "Ba'al-team." Yes, the infamous clones. I thought that was extremely cheesy and cheap sci-fi. It *was* cool that Ba'al was somehow able to be more than one place at a time, but having THAT MANY clones was too much. Once again, a technology we've heard nothing about (except for the Asgard) shows up conveniently to be a thorn in our side. Nevermind the fact that reall cloning doesn't produce an exact full-grown replica. Cloned beings (Dolly the sheep, the kitten, etc.) start out as embryos and are born just like their 'parents' and have to grow up in the normal fashion. They don't spring to life full-size. (And don't tell me it's a different, more advanced type of cloning that we have on earth... that's just silly and too convenient.) One thing could have possibly saved this concept for me: if the clones had been visibly inferior or flawed. I don't mean flawed physically, but just not as strong or mentally sharp. In other words, they would have fooled someone from far away or with just a few words, but closer contact would reveal that they're not quite right.

Resurrection, Season 7.

Auralis
August 27th, 2005, 05:19 AM
As for the cloning.
The trust, back then NID, was able to clone a symbiot and a host. To me it feel slike anice contunuation of that plotline. Nothing wrong with it.

Beaming the building up, not far stretched, Thors ship in Thors chariot was able to beam away three gua'old mothership pyramids just as easy.

And sinc ethe reporter mentioned that are already conspiration theories are poping up about the building, its way to early to tell if the cover will hold up long.

And java working undercover, that is something completly new to them, so it makes sense that they don't do it and just waltz in in their normal attire and blast away.

4 out of 5

Edit: oh and that the clones have the memory of Ba'al is not a handwaving of the clone tech as it is in most sci-fi shows with cloning. ITs because gua'old have genetic memory as long establised in the show.

SlightlyManiacalGater
August 27th, 2005, 05:23 AM
I'm not a big fan of NID/Trust/conspiracy stories, so this one started out with a strike against it for me.

I loved the Teal'c parts; CJ was wonderful and showed a tremendous range from anger and determination to resignation and acceptance. But make no mistake about it - Teal'c has not given up this fight even if he's lost this round. I like the way the Jaffa arc has played out slowly through the season.

I'm not a big Baal fan, so the eye candy didn't do much for me. In fact, while I do appreciate eye candy, in general it's not enough to carry an episode for me, no matter who is the sweet thing in question.

Why did that woman in the diner confide in Daniel? That didn't make sense to me.

I liked that they're finally SG1 again, but I did feel that the patch scene didn't belong in a mostly Earth-bound episode. They should have put on their SG1 patches and then all gone thru the gate together. As it was, it seemed like someone said, look we're seven episodes into the season, let's make it official even if this isn't the most appropriate episode to do it.

I'm starting to like Mitchell and I'm glad he's been introduced slowly. I'm ready to actually care about the character in the next episode.

How can someone be "not exactly" single? Is Carter so incapable of commitment that she can't determine her status? What a cold fish. But I must say she's looking more professional this season and less like a Felgar's fantasy chick.

There were a few cute lines: Beats flying coach, Kiss on tour. But not enough to save the episode.

Overall, this was an ep that had nothing for me. I miss Vala. I miss Dr. Lee. I even missed the Priors. I miss the epic feel of the first part of the season.

MediaSavant
August 27th, 2005, 06:24 AM
The down side:

While I like Ba'al. . .a little goes a long way. As it stands now, Ba'al could die every week and we would still have. . .Ba'al. Yawn.

Mitchell. . .PLEASE!! TPTB hired a very good actor for this part. .GIVE HIM SOMETHING TO DO!!!

We "beam up" a huge building in the middle of a city and no one notices? Gas explosion? Yeah right. That was just plain BAD folks.

Grade: C (which is better than BSG's episode, which was riddled with more holes than swiss cheese). SGA was best tonight.

I'm about where you are. All science fiction requires a bit of suspension of disbelief, but this one strained it to the max. The cloning and the beaming of the building were a bit too much to chew.

I get annoyed when shows pull the "he might not be dead" card. It reminds me how on daytime soaps they never find the body. I guess they did that with Vala last week, too.

I'm increasingly annoyed by the writers' inability to figure out what to do with Mitchell. (Yes, I know next week will be different)

Giantevilhead
August 27th, 2005, 06:29 AM
I highly doubt that any of the Baals shown in the episode was the real one, he's a Goa'uld, he could have jumped to a new host any time he wanted, it would have been the smart thing to do, no one would recognize him with a new host. For all we know, that woman was the real Baal. At the very least he wouldn't be in his original host since that host is at least a couple hundred years old and would need a sarcophagus to survive.

akimbo
August 27th, 2005, 06:31 AM
I enjoyed the episode a lot. Even though they were split in half, they felt more like a team to me.

The big nitpick for me was the disappearing building. It's not that the disappearing building was out of the realm of the show's reality, just that there wasn't more of a fuss about people not seeing/reacting to it being gone. Perhaps that was cut for time, but it was definitely a convenient "deus ex machina" moment. :D

I enjoyed Teal'c getting to do some business and think Garak is a powermongering so and so (just like I'm supposed to). Loved Cam backing off when Teal'c told him he couldn't address the council. I'm getting good vibes from Cam and Teal'c together (which is good news for Teal'c being more involved in things).

I loved the patch scene. Though I'm not exactly sure if Daniel gave his consent "on the spot" or not since Cam just slapped the patch on him. (Was that "silence is consent"?) Sam and Teal'c appeared to give him the thumbs up right there (and their exchanges were very well done). I enjoyed the look between Sam and Daniel when it was over, they looked as though they've jumped on the Mitchell bandwagon with both feet at that moment. Just this scene made the ep for me.

The scene with Agent Barrett and Sam was good as well. Not too shippy but gave a nod to the shippers with someone who could legitimately ask about Sam's personal relationships for the audience (and he's so cute being rejected). I would expect that Daniel and Teal'c would already know what's up with Sam and Mitchell wouldn't ask even if he wanted to.

Loved seeing Ba'al, but the Ba'al clones felt a bit silly to me (and also a deus ex machina moment). I'll try to reserve judgement until I see how it plays out.

Hated, hated, hated that Skiffy blew the fourth act twist in the preview (and that I didn't turn off the preview fast enough last week). Why do they do these things to us?

Can't wait until Babylon. Looks like the team will be split again (this time 3 and 1), but at least Mitchell will get to do some heavy lifting for the plot.

ETA: Thumbs up to Martin Wood, as usual. He always seems to keep us moving as much as possible. (I really miss Martin directing SG-1). Thanks for doing more "walk and talk" exposition as opposed to always using "briefing room boredom". (I love that Daniel talks faster during exposition, it gives us more time for other things.) Now if we could do the exposition as we're doing something besides walking, I'd be in heaven.

shockwave
August 27th, 2005, 07:12 AM
not a bad ep, but nowhere near as great as the previous ones
highlights:
-scene with the guy playing patience, and the jaffa storming in
-patch scene
-the ending with all the Baals

SierraGulf1
August 27th, 2005, 07:36 AM
Once again, my computer froze upon clicking the reply button, causing me to lose paragraphs of episode evaluation. However, instead of shortening it like I did with Beachhead, I think I'll just rewrite it with a bit more precaution. On that note...

SierraGulf1's Evaluation of 9.07: "Ex Deus Machina"

If old school Stargate SG-1 is the days of exploring a new planet each week with different cultures and the Goa'uld, and new school Stargate is the battle against the Ori, Ex Deus Machina was middle school Stargate, involving the Earthly activities of the NID/Trust that we've been seeing in some of the middle seasons of Stargate.

I'm normally not crazy about Earth-based episodes, but the mere idea of Ba'al and a bunch of Jaffa on Earth intrigued me. I've been looking forward to this episode for months since the plot was spoiled, hoping I wouldn't be disappointed...

...And I was not disappointed.

It seems many people liked this episode except for certain "stretches" TPTB made. As someone said, I can let the building thing go because the area was evacuated, and even if a few people saw the flash of light, most likely nobody would listen to their claims. Perhaps this is all building up to something. Perhaps the season finale's cliffhanger will be the revelation of the Stargate program, where all of these events add up to them having to go public. But I'm getting off topic, this is about Ex Deus Machina.

I hate Sci-fi channel. The bomb being the building would have been an interesting twist if I hadn't heard it from the ad about ten times this week. Argh. Curse them, and curse their rediculous Pteradactyl movie too.

Now, if I may, response to characters and development in this episode:

Mitchell still didn't get to do much, but he got to do a bit. I would have liked to hear his address to the council. Despite his limited role, judging from Beachhead he seems to be a powerful speaker. I like that he finally played a role in the solving of the problem, though I thought of beaming up the building before him. Oh well, the episode was called Ex Deus Machina, after all. Here's to a Mitchell-driven episode next week! Huzzah!

Carter seems to be settling in nicely, doing her usual snooping around as she does when the rogue NID/Trust are lurking about causing problems. Carter had a nice catch figuring out the building was the bomb, but she would have figured it out a lot sooner if she just turned on Sci-fi channel once or twice this week. Her hair was more tamed this time, I think she looks great, and is still in tip top acting form. I like seeing her work with Barrett and not pining over Jack, and she was how I like her in Ex Deus. If she's with Jack now as the line implies, good for her, but I think the "Not quite" line was just perfect, and needs no further explanation. Ever. :)

Daniel had little to do, the episode was very Daniel-lite. That's okay, though, as the first six episodes gave us plenty of Daniel interacting with Vala. Perhaps he's just taking it easy now. Vala has definitely had an effect on him. Jack, Oma, Vala, and Anubis are all big players in the change of Daniel's character over the years from wide eyed annoying-but-enthusiastic-and-likeable archaeologist to badass sarcastic archaeologist who can use a gun. I like how he has changed and still maintains a good morality and still sees the good in people. He was talking fast again, but I've grown used to it.

Teal'c, Teal'c, Teal'c. He's got quite a bit to deal with. This episode is a perfect example as to why Teal'c is my favorite character in the show. Christopher Judge is a great actor. Teal'c knows his stuff, and is a great political speaker. This is the Teal'c episode I've been waiting for, and I'm glad to see that he's starting to lighten up now that the team is back together. You've got to feel for Teal'c, going through all of that just to be denied by a bunch of corrupt power-hungry politicians and their blind followers. While I enjoyed both, I found Teal'c and Mitchell's plot more interesting than the situation on Earth with Carter, Daniel, and Barrett. More Teal'c, please.

Landry didn't get to do much, but I hear Beau wasn't around much for the filming of this episode. I'm still impressed by Landry's role last week, so I can live without him for now.

Lam has been gone for two weeks... Wheeee!! I'm afraid she'll be back though. :(

Barrett was his usual self. Without realizing it, I've really grown to like the guy. I see he has an interest in Sam, the sly devil.

Ba'al was excellent. I believe that there was no better way to go with the character of Ba'al. Cliff Simon has a naturally sinister voice, or was that just his acting talent coming in to play. I'm glad to see that Ba'al is still ticking. I liked the clone's little speech to the Jaffa before he was killed about them dying slaves. Perhaps this is foreshadowing? The clone bit seemed a bit odd at first, but as I think about it, it's not too bad of an idea. As long as they don't go on a Ba'al slaying mission in which they just take out Ba'als left and right, although a Matrix-like scene in which hundreds of Ba'als attack SG-1 and they fight them off with some crazy kung-fu would get a chuckle out of me. Can't wait for his (er, their) return.

Lastly, I saved the patch scene for last. This scene was well filmed, well directed, and well acted by Ben, Amanda, Michael, and Chris. I half expected Mitchell to go "Now that's what I'm talkin' about" when they all agreed. It paid off having SG-1 split up for six episodes to see that one scene of reunion. Now we can head full throttle into the remaining thirteen episodes of SG-1. An up to date ranking of the episodes:

1) Ex Deus Machina
2) The Powers That Be
3) Avalon Part 2
4) Beachhead
5) Origin
6) The Ties That Bind
7) Avalon Part 1

Bring on Conversion and Babylon. This season is simply amazing for me.

puddlejumper747
August 27th, 2005, 07:41 AM
Comments:
1) Being a local Virginia resident, living so close to where earlier parts of the episode took place....that was pretty cool. Jaffa Soldiers came to Virginia!!! Baal came to Virginia!!! SG-1 came to Virginia!!! :D
2) Teal'c told us that Baal had been sighted in another part of the galaxy as recent as a few days ago....so the four versions remaining on Earth aren't the only ones! The real Baal might not even be on Earth! :eek:
3) Beaming up an entire building....amazing. I honestly wasn't sure that would be possible. I was afraid it might be too big or overload the Asgard tech or something else crazy like that. I'm very glad I was wrong. :)

Questions:
1) Do all of the Baal human clones have cloned symbiotes living within them also? :confused:
2) The first time they thought they had Baal, but then pulled back because he was "really" broadcasting live on television at the exact same time....was that actually a clone version of Baal getting into the car? :rolleyes:
3) Whatever happened to the Goa'uld/human guy from Earth that Gerak was torturing? Was he killed after they finished torturing him? Did I miss something in the episode that answered that for us? :S

Gargen
August 27th, 2005, 08:07 AM
Questions:
1) Do all of the Baal human clones have cloned symbiotes living within them also? :confused:
yes or else they would be free humans and would try to get out of there because baal is the symbiote, So yes they do.


2) The first time they thought they had Baal, but then pulled back because he was "really" broadcasting live on television at the exact same time....was that actually a clone version of Baal getting into the car? :rolleyes:
Yea i thikn that was supposed to set us up for the end


3) Whatever happened to the Goa'uld/human guy from Earth that Gerak was torturing? Was he killed after they finished torturing him? Did I miss something in the episode that answered that for us? :S
They probally did the same thing to him after he revealed the information about baal

warmbeachbrat
August 27th, 2005, 08:08 AM
The only thing I got frustrated with was the cover story for blowing up the building. An entire building vanishes in the middle of downtown! I mean, who is actually going to believe the gas line deal? Maybe this will come up in a later ep.

Actually, the gas line explosion wouldn't be that unlikely a cover story. Most of the power generation in Washington State is hydro-electric. There are some gas-lines, but not near as much as in other states, so it's unique enough to cause comment. Several years ago, there was a gas line explosion in Bellingham and a couple of children were killed and it was a huge deal. I could see them capitalizing on that incident and diverting attention by using a gas explosion in this case.

Other small points:

What if the blond woman is Ba'al's lotar? We know he had a woman lotar before--maybe that's his thing?

Notice how only one of the clones said anything in that final scene? Are the other ones mute or stupid or just lazy? And what about the drinks? I vaguely remember something about symbiotes and alcohol--can anyone refresh my memory?

Gerak--good grief! Can he sound any more like William Shatner?!

Ba'al--Hmmm, what do you suppose his larger plan is? Hopefully, tptb will address that sometime this season.


Just a few things that make you go: hmmmm.

akimbo
August 27th, 2005, 08:20 AM
8) Cincinnati Bengals stink and may have influenced my opinions of this ep.


:p

My hubby (one of the few Bengal's fans living in Browns Town) commiserates with you. From the very first play from scrimmage it was not good...not good. :(

Jonzey
August 27th, 2005, 08:30 AM
Notice how only one of the clones said anything in that final scene? Are the other ones mute or stupid or just lazy? And what about the drinks? I vaguely remember something about symbiotes and alcohol--can anyone refresh my memory?

If I was a writer I would have written that last scene differently: like so...

Baal: I'm going to bed. We have a long day ahead of us. G'night Baals!
Baals (all together): G'NIGHT BAAL!!

IMForeman
August 27th, 2005, 08:45 AM
About the cloning thing: I really didn't have a problem with it, and I'll tell you why.

Baal has joined the Goa'uld infaltrated "Trust." The Trust are made up of very powerful members of high tech and financial groups. We know that some technology companies have been given Asgard cloning technology to play with, as last year one of them grew a full grown, but mentally blank Asgard. If Baal found he had access to that technology, then he could very well have cloned himself and his symbiote. We know that Asgard cloning makes a fully grown body very quickly.

And I also have no problem with Baal and the Jaffa arriving on Earth undetected. A cloaked cargo ship could easily arrive on Earth without us knowing about it. Earth is a very big place, and Cargo ships are very small in comparison. Add a cloak into that mix and neither arrival is at all strange to me.

-IMF

jyh
August 27th, 2005, 08:47 AM
The big nitpick for me was the disappearing building. It's not that the disappearing building was out of the realm of the show's reality, just that there wasn't more of a fuss about people not seeing/reacting to it being gone. Perhaps that was cut for time, but it was definitely a convenient "deus ex machina" moment. :D




I agree. This whole scene took place smack in the middle of a workday (12:30 or 1:30, I forget exactly), but there was no reaction or mention of hundreds of people on their lunch hour reacting to a building disappearing or being lifted up or whatever it was. But ditto the comment on deus ex maching. Definition of which is:

1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.


In addition to sudden and unexpected, I think they forgot the word "convenient." :p

IMForeman
August 27th, 2005, 08:56 AM
I agree. This whole scene took place smack in the middle of a workday (12:30 or 1:30, I forget exactly), but there was no reaction or mention of hundreds of people on their lunch hour reacting to a building disappearing or being lifted up or whatever it was. But ditto the comment on deus ex maching. Definition of which is:

1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.


In addition to sudden and unexpected, I think they forgot the word "convenient." :p


First, I could have sworn they said the area had been evacuated. Second, it was so not a Deus ex machina. For it to be a Deus ex Machina, it would have required for absolutely no setup to have been made on the beaming technology at all. If they had never mentioned Asgard beams, or that Prometheus had them, and they went "Oh, yeah! We've got this beaming technology we've never before mentioned or used! We'll beam it up!" That would have been a Deus Ex Machina. If Superman showed up it would have been a Deus Ex Machina. Using something that was established not only in the series, but actually used in that very same episode prior to the end makes it not a Deus Ex Machina. It might be a convienient way to resolve the plot, and therefore a plot contrivance, but not every plot contrivance is a Deus Ex Machina.

I honestly think the phrase Deus Ex Machina has been thrown around way too often in Sci-fi fandom this year.

-IMF

girlgater
August 27th, 2005, 09:37 AM
Well, I liked last night's episode. I enjoyed seeing the team join together and also the Ba'al storyline. (He's my favorite goa'uld). In addition, the conflict between the Jaffa and Earth set up future potential issues. Being a shipper, I loved the hint that Sam gave in terms of her availability. To me it's obvious that she and Jack have taken their relationship farther, but it's ok that they're letting Carter be Carter.

zats
August 27th, 2005, 09:38 AM
What was good:

a. The patches moment with the 'new' team was great, if only because I can stop making jokes about SG-.5.
b. I know we saw Sam last week, but this ep seemed a little more...I dunno. An improvement over "Hey, look, kids, it's Sam! Ahem, where were we? Oh, right, the galaxy's in danger. And so, back at the ranch...", which is what last week felt a bit like.
c. Whee! Ba'al. And lots of him!
d. And the amount of speculation over "Not exactly..." could power NYC for a day.

What wasn't good:
a. Missing Vala. And Jack. But I'll live.
b. This isn't concerned with this ep specifically, but recent eps in general: I've got nothing against Earth-based eps. But whatever happened to SG-1 being the first-contact team? You know, going through the 'gate to acquire new technologies to fight bad guys? When was the last time we made contact with an entirely new race? I miss that.

Jonzey
August 27th, 2005, 09:49 AM
First, I could have sworn they said the area had been evacuated.

It had. A 5 block radius around the building at least. Possibly more if they kept evacuating after that.

Lieut-Col. P@rick Durden
August 27th, 2005, 09:50 AM
OK. I thought it was a great Ep. I watched it and was instantly DOWN w/ SG1 back together. however the one thing that was sorta upsetting/ uncharacteristic was teal'c. I mean c'mon now after eliminating the replicaters abd defeating the system lords (some of them at least) why did he back away from the brunt of the Jaffa nation I mean what would be perfect os teal'c and braatak in charge so the alliance can work you all heard what gerack said about the tok'ra what kind of BS is that we all worked together in the fight for freedom from the SL's and replicaters now what we have accomplished is going to be hindered by a moronic jaffa who is a wannabe guo'ald so basically what i'm saying is that teal'c needs to do is a little head bashing and kill gerack because if the jaffa keep going in this way we might as well wage a war on them.



oh it sounds outlandish I know but C'MON!!!

KatG
August 27th, 2005, 09:56 AM
And a big shippy sigh was heard across the US. :D

I actually bounced when Agent Barrett said to Sam "So you're single again?" and Sam paused then replied "Not exactly." Still have a very, very big grin on my face.

Aside from that this was a very good episode. Love that Ba'al has multiple clones and that he can make bombs out of buildings.

Nice awww moment when the team became official again.

Garek is a scary guy. He's going to cause as much trouble as the Gould ever did.

Really, really happy with this episode.

the fifth man
August 27th, 2005, 10:45 AM
It's nice to see that many of my peers liked the episode as much as I did last night. It definitely wasn't a let-down from the hype about it. Yeah, there were some parts I could nitpick at, but they are the same as what most of you have posted ( the building beam-up, and the clone Baals ). Of course, the clone Baals could turn into a great little story arc if handled properly. Guess we'll just have to wait and see. Can't wait for "Babylon" in two weeks. Of course, the favorite episodes marathon next friday should be sweet too. Nothing beats "the best of" stargates.

golfbooy
August 27th, 2005, 11:05 AM
OK, my own thoughts. Warning: I'm longwinded. Deal with it.

Love it or hate it, this one was SG-1. As someone mentioned earlier, perhaps you can classify it as middle season SG-1, but it's still SG-1. Besides, any episode that makes all of fandom retreat to their respective corners sounds pretty classic to me.

I'm surprised to see so many threads about how Ben Browder and Cam Mitchell are being, pardon the pun, shafted by TPTB. As an avid SG-1 fan from the very beginning (wow, that was a long time ago), I've rather enjoyed his measured, steady introduction to the story. And I've certainly enjoyed the fact that Carter, Daniel, and Teal'c are being treated as the leads they are. It seems that a lot of Browder fans were expecting him to join the cast and immediately dominate storylines and screetime a la John Crichton, but SG-1 has always been its own show and about its four original team members. Lots of other characters join in the fun, but that the show is still predominantly about Sam, Daniel, Teal'c, and even Jack to some extent, makes me one happy fan. In his first episode Mitchell told Daniel that he wanted to learn from the best, and that's exactly what it looks like he's been doing. Like it or not, he has no experience with gate travel, with off-world politics, and with serious interaction involving aliens. Add that to the massive expertise of the other SG-1 team members, and the fact that at any given time they become de facto team leader is hardly surprising or unexpected or improper. Mitchell should certainly defer to Sam when dealing with technology, to Teal'c when dealing with the Jaffa, and to Daniel when dealing with cultures/history/artifacts.

Similarly, the fact that Mitchell is the team leader at all really seems to be a matter of casting/production politics rather than one of military protocol. His promotion to SG-1 is, perhaps, the biggest plot convience of the whole season. Certainly the return of Col. Carter, along with her massive experience with the stargate itself, her eight years of field duty, her history with the Goa'uld, etc., trumps any claim to command that Mitchell holds. And while I'm aware that often times the best person doesn't get picked for command, in this case the very nature of the Stargate Program kind of rules that out.

Oh, right, Ex Deus Machina.

Well, Teal'c emerges as the real standout in this one, continuing to fight for the well being of his people (both Jaffa and Tau'ri). His composure and patience in the face of defeat at the end of the episode illustrates how far he has come as a character. His reactions and his words are those that I'd expect from Bra'tac, and that Teal'c has reached that stage of maturity and experience is a satisfying journey to have watched.

Carter resumes her place with appropriate aplomb. She carries a good portion of the story in this one, and the inclusion of some personal tidbits help to establish a comfortable base for the rest of the season. It also appears as though her return also allows the writers to finally progress the story further, after holding pretty much pat for the first five episodes.

Daniel, despite a much deserved (and needed) break from the spotlight, manages to maintain a presence in the action. He looks quite at home cavorting about with Sam, and thankfully more relaxed without Vala around.

And, then there's Mitchell, who like Daniel, manages to maintain a presence in the story without having very much to do at all. His idea might have saved the day, but it was a passive solution, and one that doesn't really allow for a great character moment or tremendous screentime as hero. See above for my sentiments on this.

Landry continues in his role as Hammond Jr., not intruding into the narrative and not taking the spotlight away from SG-1. And Gerak manages to be an effective foil for Teal'c. Kudos to TPTB for not letting Lou Gossett's and Beau Bridges' famed status overrun the story and the show.

Lastly, Ba'al still holds his place as the most engaging Goa'uld since Apophis. His perpetual promotion of his own well being and his own agenda serves him well. I'm not too sure how I feel about the clones, but I said that about Replicarter too, and was forced to eat quite a bit of crow after New Order. I think I'll reserve judgement for a while this time.

I'll end with a few complaints. I like the Prometheus as much as the next guy, but the show could definitely use a break from it. The next few eps look to be going that route, so we'll see. And the bit with the building I can swallow. It's just a little rough going down is all. As for the real Ba'al, I'm hoping he wasn't on earth at all. There a number of explanations for the clones Goa'uldish nature, the easiest being that they weren't Ba'al, just other Goa'ulds who had taken his cloned host. Lastly, the patch scene was nice, but too understated for my liking. I'd have preferred more of a to-do over SG-1's reformation. And they still haven't resolved the command issue, one way or the other, enough for my tastes.

Still, I enjoyed it. Bring on Babylon.

TechnoBoY
August 27th, 2005, 11:41 AM
I think this is one of the best so far in S9! I liked it a whole lot! I've been dissapointed lately with the eps but this one was really good. It felt like good old SG1. Good stuff!

It was nice to see that reporter lady back! Yup yup! We need more episodes like this.

Quinn Mallory
August 27th, 2005, 11:56 AM
For whatever reason, I didn't have a high expectation of this episode (since most of the Earth based episodes in the past are a bit weak). I would have to say that this episode easily exceeded my expecation and beyond.

It's a rather interesting twist to have Ba'al hiding out on Earth and the further set up Gerek's dominance over the Jaffas. I also enjoyed the return of agent Barrett, that reporter from Prometheus and Covenant, and of course the team getting back together.

Now some nitpicking: I find it a bit odd that Sam didn't come up with the idea to beam out the building. I think all of us have such a high expectation of Sam that it is a bit disappointing when she is not the one who solved the problem (the only exception, in my opinion, is when they let Jonas solved the problem in Redemption). I guess they just want to give Mitchell another chance to shine. Another thing is the use of the poision to kill goa'uld. Are we supposed to assume that all of the Jaffas are now on tritonin and don't need a "junior" to survive? Did any Jaffa die from the poison?

Anyway, it was a good episode once again.

AGateFan
August 27th, 2005, 12:26 PM
For whatever reason, I didn't have a high expectation of this episode (since most of the Earth based episodes in the past are a bit weak). I would have to say that this episode easily exceeded my expecation and beyond.

It's a rather interesting twist to have Ba'al hiding out on Earth and the further set up Gerek's dominance over the Jaffas. I also enjoyed the return of agent Barrett, that reporter from Prometheus and Covenant, and of course the team getting back together.

Now some nitpicking: I find it a bit odd that Sam didn't come up with the idea to beam out the building. I think all of us have such a high expectation of Sam that it is a bit disappointing when she is not the one who solved the problem (the only exception, in my opinion, is when they let Jonas solved the problem in Redemption). I guess they just want to give Mitchell another chance to shine. Another thing is the use of the poision to kill goa'uld. Are we supposed to assume that all of the Jaffas are now on tritonin and don't need a "junior" to survive? Did any Jaffa die from the poison?
Anyway, it was a good episode once again.


Yes all the jaffa that were attacking Baals compound died. That is why Landry and Mitchell had the look of angst on their faces when they heard the Jaffa were attacking and Teal'c said something like "we must not hesitate". In other words go ahead and kill them, we told them not to be there anyway.

I’m a bit surprised we (earth) didn’t have a stronger reaction to an alien ship being in our system without our consent. Perhaps we should have mentioned that we hold sovereignty over the Solar system and ANY intrusion into that system without our consent is an act of hostility....I’m pretty sure the jaffa wouldn’t like it if we parked Deadeleus over Dakara..... Well I guess we didn't say that because we cant really back it up yet, but that is the message we should get out. We are friendly as long as you don’t do anything unfriendly and a heavily armed mothership anywhere near our planet is unfriendly. IMHO

Raine Anaya
August 27th, 2005, 12:51 PM
And the Baal clones at the end? That scene demands fanfic. It really, really does.

Absolutely.

Jace021903
August 27th, 2005, 01:07 PM
This was my least favorite so far of season 9--not terrible, just kind of bland for me.

The cast did a fine job, but I really don't enjoy the Trust/Conspiracy storylines that much.

Still, there were a few standout moments...

Teal'c had something to do--nice bit of acting by CJ.

The band officially getting back together--with patches--was nice...long time coming.

I like the little Daniel and Sam friendship moments that have been thrown in over the last two episodes--I hope we see more.

Jace

PS: I really miss Vala. (sigh)

Uber
August 27th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Okay. I loved this episode.

First of all, as a Sam fan, it was so great to see Sam way back in action! I mean, sure, she was in Beachhead...but for that she was only there on a TDA. Now, FINALLY, we have SG-1!!! WOOOOOOOOT.

I just LOVE Ba'al. So to see so many...well, it made my day.

The scene of the team reuniting was delightfully understated...Sam's conceding grin and Teal'c's typically head bob slash muted response combo said it all. And the smile between Sam and Daniel...it was just right. It was time for the team to be one again.

That being said, I hope Cassie has made it out of the tough spot she was in. I hope we learn more about what she was going through...it must have been pretty heavy for Sam to rearrange her life and take a desk job.

I was delighted that Teal'c is no longer a wall flower. His speech before the Jaffa leadership was strong and compelling. And his sadness at the end when he realized that their hearts belonged to Garak for the time being was palpable.

I like that Cam had something to offer. I think he's a good addition to the team but I still do not feel that he has so far shown me as a viewer what qualifies him to lead the team. He's got potential...I just am not seeing any real reason he should command the team. I like the fact that he's quick on his feet...his idea to beam the building away was cool. I'm glad Sam didn't come up with it or those who don't appreciate her would accuse her of being Super!Sam again. Like that's a bad thing... :cool:

Daniel. *sigh* Here's a memo to Michael Shanks. PLEASE SLOW DOWN!!! You don't have to talk so dang fast! I feel bad for those who don't have English down 100%...trying to listen to him race through the dialogue is tough even for me and English is my native language...I have to rewind and relisten to his dialogue to get the gist.

Then of course there's the shippy beat. Very subtle so as not to rattle the cages of those who rabidly oppose any kind of ship between Sam and Jack but enough to delight the shippers. What's freaky is that several months ago, I predicted how the scene would play out and posted it on the Sam/Jack shipper thread. The search feature is currently down but as soon as it's back up I'm going to see how close I was to the actual script.

You know, with Beachhead I felt like my show was starting to come back (actually I got the initial feelings of hope with The Powers that Be)...but Ex Deus Machina sealed the deal.

All in all...a thoroughly enjoyable episode. Everyone had a role to play...everyone was valuable. As for the rest of Season 9, BRING IT ON!

I give this ep four out of five zats.

http://www.powerpromoz.com/stargate/zatrating.jpghttp://www.powerpromoz.com/stargate/zatrating.jpghttp://www.powerpromoz.com/stargate/zatrating.jpghttp://www.powerpromoz.com/stargate/zatrating.jpg

Kalliope
August 27th, 2005, 01:18 PM
PS: I really miss Vala. (sigh)

Welcome to the club of not entirely happy campers...

Sir Ruff
August 27th, 2005, 01:44 PM
This was a funny/strange episode.. Clones, beaming up skyscrapers, Baa'l in a suit.. But I think this gives some idea of what's to come. And it's always fun to see american-finnish people in stargate :p (Sonya Salomaa who played Charlotte)

Terrarin
August 27th, 2005, 02:40 PM
???????????????????????????????????????????

How do you pronounce 'ex deus machina?'
What does it mean?
How is it related to the topic of the story?

Thanks.

Taonas
August 27th, 2005, 02:46 PM
???????????????????????????????????????????

How do you pronounce 'ex deus machina?'
What does it mean?
How is it related to the topic of the story?

Thanks.

It would be pronounced "x day-ous ma-ki-na" (course this is how I pronounce it.

As for what it would mean, that I'm not to sure.

Uber
August 27th, 2005, 03:08 PM
It would be pronounced "x day-ous ma-ki-na" (course this is how I pronounce it.

As for what it would mean, that I'm not to sure.It's a play on the phrase EX DEUS MACHINA...which literally translates from Latin to "god from the machine."

It comes from Greek and Roman theater where a device would lower a god or gods to the stage to fix a hopeless scenario in the play. These days, the definition's been expanded to essentially refer to any resolution where an author challenges suspension of belief so he or she can reach an achieved objective with a story whether it makes sense based on the logic of that story or not. In other words, a Deus ex Machina is a quick fix in a story.

As for pronunciation...I believe in the commentaries Martin Wood has always pronounced it as "DEH-us ex MAH-kin-ah" so I'll go with that.

:cool:

AGateFan
August 27th, 2005, 03:12 PM
Well deus ex machine appears to mean
1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.
OR
n : any active agent who appears unexpectedly to solve and insoluble difficulty
I am not sure what the significance of having the first and second words transposed. It could make it mean something completely different.
It appears that in Latin
Dues = god
Ex = from
m china = machine
So “from god machine”? Maybe they are referring to whatever device Baal used to create the clones. Or maybe they are referring to the sudden and unexpected solution. Or maybe the use of the asgard beam to beam the building into space.

entil2001
August 27th, 2005, 03:30 PM
After the recent Ori-centric episodes, a return to concerns like The Trust and the Goa’uld is actually a little bit of a slowdown. At least, that’s how I felt about it. The writers had already tossed about a dozen plot elements into the season arc, and now that we’re a third of the way in, it seems overkill to slip in this new aspect of Ba’al and his growing control over the human economy.

I’m also not sure that I like the idea of Ba’al clones, even if it means that things get to be more complex. Even if it has some tenuous connection to previous NID-related episodes, it strikes me as a little too convenient. Not only that, but I was left wondering if the writers were trying to suggest that the real Ba’al wasn’t in the same body anymore, but rather, in the fit young woman that was pretending to be his “First Prime”. What better hiding place than in plain sight?

Anyway, for me, the real interest was the chess game between Teal’c and Garek. Previous episodes warned that Garek was an isolationist with a great deal of popular support, and this episode confirms it without a doubt. Garek knows politics and how to use information (or the lack thereof) against his rivals. Time and again, Teal’c was put on the defensive, and no matter how powerful his words might be, the message was lost in the process.

As annoying as the “Goa’uld on Earth” plot thread promises to be, there are some interesting aspects to it. All this action on Earth continues to erode the secrecy of the SGC, which was already on the skids over the past few years. The previous episode also raised an interesting issue: what happens if Ba’al decides that an alliance of convenience with the Ori can solidify his power on Earth?

One thing is for certain: the alliance between the Tau’ri, the Tok’ra, and the Jaffa has all but fallen apart, and Garek is more than happy to let it happen. His use of the old methods employed by the Goa’uld suggests that he could turn those weapons against his own people in the near future. What would Garek do to preserve his own power? At what point does this isolationist stance become the basis for a dictatorship?

This is more properly the return of Lt. Col. Carter, since the previous episode had few meaningful moments for the character. This introduces a few questions that have probably been on the table for a while, but couldn’t be addressed until she was back on-screen. For instance, she notes that she’s not exactly “single”; is this some kind of reference to the end of the eighth season? I’ve always taken it that Jack and Sam accepted that they can’t be together, yet can’t be with anyone else because of their feelings for each other. Is that how the comment was meant to be read?

And then there’s the question of command. If the writers play this honestly, Carter should have issues with Mitchell running the show, sooner or later. Unless, of course, they continue to make the team feel more like a temporary convenience than the institution that once was. Carter may simply see this as a temporary situation, so it doesn’t matter who runs the team. But what happens if Mitchell makes a call that Carter doesn’t agree with?

Even if this wasn’t my favorite plot thread (I’m actually rather tired of the NID/Trust/Goa’uld episodes), I continue to give credit where credit is due. The entire cast seems revitalized, the writing is the strongest it’s been since the series went to SFC, and the series is back to being a “must watch”. It’s like the writers and producers felt like they had something to prove, and so far, they’ve hit a very nice stride.

greytop
August 27th, 2005, 03:43 PM
I enjoyed this one also. Not to repeat everyone that said why, I notice a couple of somethings.

1. Cam just happen to have three SG-1 patches in his pockets at that time. I believe that he has had them in there all this time.

2. Gerak is starting to act like a Goa'uld, IMO, in hiding as Immotep did in I forgot the name of the episode it was. Decieving everyone as he did. Even Teal'c old friends and acquenices in the Free Jaffa Nation, are starting to believe Gerak. This is going to split the FJN apart, IMO.

Dave Thomer
August 27th, 2005, 04:06 PM
I believe that the title is a play on Ba'al's status.

"Deus ex machina" is the dramatic device mentioned in the thread, where something gets pulled in out of nowhere to solve the problem. It means god in or from the machine.

On the other hand, Ba'al is now a former god. An "ex-deus," as in "ex-wife" or "ex-parrot." So his plans and machinations might even be considered an "ex deus machina." (Heck, the cloning device is an actual ex-god machine, when you think about it.)

Jace021903
August 27th, 2005, 04:10 PM
. For instance, she notes that she’s not exactly “single”; is this some kind of reference to the end of the eighth season? I’ve always taken it that Jack and Sam accepted that they can’t be together, yet can’t be with anyone else because of their feelings for each other. Is that how the comment was meant to be read?



That's the way I took it.

KatG
August 27th, 2005, 04:51 PM
This is more properly the return of Lt. Col. Carter, since the previous episode had few meaningful moments for the character. This introduces a few questions that have probably been on the table for a while, but couldn’t be addressed until she was back on-screen. For instance, she notes that she’s not exactly “single”; is this some kind of reference to the end of the eighth season? I’ve always taken it that Jack and Sam accepted that they can’t be together, yet can’t be with anyone else because of their feelings for each other. Is that how the comment was meant to be read?


I took it, as many shippers took it, as meaning that she and Jack are together. The "not exactly" was because while they are together, and while there's nothing wrong with it now that Jack is not her immediate superior, they're keeping it quiet for now, because to some it could look like they had been together all along, and while nothing official could be done about it, it would definitely not look good to some people.

the dancer of spaz
August 27th, 2005, 05:22 PM
This was actually a good episode. I liked it a lot! Here are some things that stuck out to me:

Ba'al:
He's officially the hottest villain that SG-1 has ever and - I dare say - will ever encounter. And when he uses his human voice? Aaahhhh.... Good stuff. :D Also, on a less shallow note, Ba'al is kind of that last vestige of Old School SG-1 that we have left, besides the Jaffa - you know, with the Goa'uld problems and the taking over our planet stuff? I like the Ori plots, because it's time for a change, but I think we can all leave the light on in our hearts for the likes of Ba'al. And CLONES of Ba'al? Fantastic. :P It was a bit crafty of them to pull this cloning technology out of their... heads, but it's still cool. Ba'al and Vala are now on my list of characters I hope to see again before season's end. Stick them BOTH in the same episode with the others, and just let it fly. ;)

Gerak:
Besides being obnoxious and ignorant, Gerak is definitely gonna get what's coming to him. And he'll deserve every little bit. While Louis Gossett Jr.'s delivery of certain lines can be rather grating on my nerves, I kinda like how he (and the writers) have interpreted Gerak: As an extremist with isolationist tendencies, who will inevitably push the envelope too far with his men. I think the Jaffa will only follow him so far. His obsolete leadership and bouts of brutality will ultimately be his downfall, leaving a nice empty spot for someone who's worthy of the position.

Teal'c:
Now we all know that he's worthy of said position, but I think that Teal'c's place is with the Tau'ri - and, more importantly, with SG-1. His loyalty in the past was always kinda great for that typical Jaffa fodder. I think a lot of people interpreted it as solely being devoted to Jack. But now we're seeing Teal'c make GREAT on his word here. He will NOT back down in supporting Earth and SG-1. Though we always knew that he wouldn't, it's great to see him do it so fervently. He's clearly a great leader, but again, I can't see SG-1 being complete without him. And Teal'c apparently doesn't want to leave. I'm glad he's gonna let the Jaffa make their bed and lie in it for now.

Jaffa Council:
Clearly, they're idiots. But we'll give them a break because they've been doing this sort of thing (i.e. following anyone) all of their lives. While Teal'c and the SGC have given them every opportunity to make a civilization built on democracy, they continue to spit on it and throw it back. Whatever. As frustrating as it is, I think it's rather realistic, and it will do well to be adjusted later on in the season. Just as Gerak seems to hold on to some crazy version of "The Old Ways," the other Jaffa seem to be perfectly content to take over their past jobs: The Grunt Work. Oh well. It'll make SG-1's aid later on that much more undeniable later on. :)

Barrett:
It's always great to see this guy. Though, I have to say, I miss the red. It always added a bit of the boyish charm he seemed to effortlessly exude. Bummer. Still, I've got my Barrett fix for the season and that's enough. :D

"Well, not exactly."
Heh heh. Enough said on that. Except, it's hilarious to think that ONE line could mean SO much in the grand scheme of things for certain fans. Consider me a member of that camp. That one line from Sam is all the confirmation I needed. :P

The (Brand-New) Band:
It was cute. I'll admit it. It was cute. It was unexpected, and at first, I was like, "WTF?" But then I watched it again, and I had to smile. Cameron's personal objective was finally achieved, and Daniel, Sam and Teal'c could finally admit what they'd always wanted to do: Join SG-1 again. The shared look between Sam and Daniel and the head-bow of yore from Teal'c was all I needed to see, to know that the new "band" is truly back together for good. There is life *sniff* after Jack.

The Music/Score:
I really liked it in this episode. I tend to like it in all of the episodes, actually. Two parts that stick out the most are: (1) When Sam, Teal'c and Daniel agree to join SG-1 again and (2) the last scenes where Teal'c kinda resigns to the fact that the Jaffa Council are headed down the wrong path, and Ba'al's clones are revealed for the first time.

The Command Structure Addressed... Or Not
Hmmmph... It was kinda off. I guess it'll be fully addressed in "Babylon," but I was expecting a bit more, I suppose. I don't want any tension or anymore Sam vs. Cam debates/wars, I just want the canon truth, whatever that may be. :o I just hope that TPTB haven't decided to simply SPLIT UP Sam and Cameron when it comes to missions, so as to avoid the issue altogether. That would not be cool.

Overall, I'd give the ep an 8.5 out of 10. :)
(I'm holding my 10s for The Fourth Horseman Parts I and II. ;) )

SimilarCadence
August 27th, 2005, 05:37 PM
This was the first episode of Season 9 that I've actually enjoyed.

-Great (practicing restraint here...) to hear Sam utter those two little words, "Not exactly"!!! (I know how I interpreted it....) :D

-Good to hear something about Cassandra, even in passing....

-So very glad to see Ba'al back again (and again and again....). Personally I find the Goa'uld much more interesting as villains than the Orii.....and as Goa'uld go, Ba'al's the best. I love the road they've decided to take this character down.... (Guess I'm part of the small minority who like the Goa'uld-infested NID/Trust storylines.....)

-Really great to see the personalities/characters of the original SG-1 coming back online. Daniel is more like Daniel than he has been in weeks, Sam is back doing what she does best (it's so good to have her back again---I really missed her)....and Teal'c is alive! He speaks, he moves, he's an integral part of the story! Teal'c not only had an abundance of lines to speak, but sprang back fully-loaded as the wise, passionate warrior that he is (and I think there's an articulate master-statesman deep inside longing to come out).

Droops
August 27th, 2005, 05:50 PM
I wasn't bored . . . .

Teal'c was active, did well. I liked his part in this. The battle for the hearts of the Jaffa nation will be more interesting than I thought it would be.

Daniel wasn't very visible, but given how much he's carried the early part of the season it's okay.

Sam . . . . . Sam's not quite right yet. Still seems a bit disjointed.

Browder's character was funny and good, I liked him.

Didn't like the SG-1 patches at the beginning, would have preferred them at the end. Then again, it would have interfered with the Ba'al ending.

The clones are fair, not sure how I feel about them yet.

So, overall, not too bad.

Traveler Enroute1
August 27th, 2005, 06:47 PM
S9- Better and better.

Gotta love that Ba'al. Proof you can't keep a good (bad? Eh!) Goa'uld down, for long. And still the fashion plate for all other Goa'uld - wonder if his new enterprises include a clothing line? :p That said, Ba'al's story arc is shaping up nicely. I wonder (as others have) if it's the symbiote that is replicated or just the host? Too many of himselves and he would probably have one heck of a time surviving self-assassinations from...his other selves. God-complexes don't go easy into domesticity...Might have missed that explanation. But truly nice effect to end the episode.

The NID story worked for me, putting the horrific scenerio of Goau'ld infesting high places (and prominent people) back for resolution. As for beaming up a high rise in daylight...Even if Americans swallow the proferred explanations, our allies-in-the-know must be screaming about this near miss, and be demanding full disclosures. Pity our President. Then again, this may be a catalyst to restore funding and staffing to SG1, much of which was diverted to SG Atlantis. I liked Sam's casual remark about Pete, and the "not quite single" line. Just so. :)

Mitchell is showing himself to be techno-savvy inspite of his one liners. In a mild comparison with O'Neill who saw simple solutions to complex situations, Mitchell's knowledge is not hidden or played down. Although I would have thought the soldier who "rode a meteor through earth" using hyperdrive would be first to suggest beaming the building out, Mitchell's suggesting it was ok, too since I get that he's very up on Stargate technologies. I look forward to him actually understanding much of what Sam explains!

Also liked the Daniel - Sam duo; a nice complementary pairing most times. Landry used them to good effect for investigations, logical for the two scientists. Tea'lc and Mitchell were also well together. The Jaffa council speech by Mitchell was cool and a character-defining moment for him.

As for the Jaffa story line, well done. That surprised me since I likened the arc to the Klingon homeworld intrigues in Star Trek: The Next Generation, which bored me no end. Tea'lc, my brave true warrior, got played. While he was thinking of how to put a stop-punch to Gerak, Gerak was just as proficient at reading Tea'lc. Gerak is not a Goa'uld, and though he seems to be showing signs of megalomania, he's still a former First Prime and apparently a seasoned one. I ached for Tea'lc as he admitted to defeat (for now), but feel sure he won't underestimate his opponent again. Nice.

Great ep before the mini-break for the marathon next week. I'm there! :D

Just sayin'.

acdj31
August 27th, 2005, 07:36 PM
I liked this ep. More of a team feeling compared to "Beachhead".
Love the Patch scene in the briefing room. No more "SG-Mitchell".

Only bad thing was Gerak's mothership. I knew it was going to be behind the moon, so predictable.

Mitchell saving the earth. Yea! Thank you Asgard beam techonolgy. Suprised to see the reporter from the "Promethus" at the end (I think it was her, right?).

lily
August 27th, 2005, 08:07 PM
As usual, I'm posting this before reading other people's comments.

Just wanted to add my opinion.

I soooooooooo loved this episode.

Some of my fav moments:

- When Cameron puts the SG-1 patch in Sam and Daniel shirts and then hands a patch to Teal'c, who accepted it. Sooooooo, he finally got the band back together. I knew he would eventually do it, but it was nice to see that moment on screen

- Sam telling Agent Barrett that she wasn't exactly single. Hehehehe. I know, I know, non shippers think this was just something Sam made up to get rid of the guy... But shippers can always think that now Jack and Sam are actually dating. The comment's vague enough to please everybody, I guess :D Personally, I'm not a die hard shipper, but I want them to eventually end up together. As I always say, I never mind Pete, I would've loved to have a Jack/Sara episode after Cold Lazarus, and "A hundred days" is one of my fav episodes, but in the end it would be nice to know that Jack and Sam end up together.

- Now the story that Sam actually took some time off in part to take care of Cassie is cannon. Woohoo! I can see fics coming :)

- Baal, Baal and more Baal. My fav Goa'uld. And now we have lots of Baals. Hehehehe. I want them all :p

- When Daniel tells Cameron about a guy describing big guys, tattoed and with chainmail pants, and Cameron replies "So it's either our Jaffa or Kiss is back on tour" LOL. And I'm sure I'm forgetting now other great lines too.

- the building with Naquadah in it, and beaming it out to space. Cool :D

- Teal'c got more than just one line in this epi. Woohoo!

A great great episode.

Schrodinger82
August 27th, 2005, 08:15 PM
First, I could have sworn they said the area had been evacuated. Second, it was so not a Deus ex machina. For it to be a Deus ex Machina, it would have required for absolutely no setup to have been made on the beaming technology at all. If they had never mentioned Asgard beams, or that Prometheus had them, and they went "Oh, yeah! We've got this beaming technology we've never before mentioned or used! We'll beam it up!" That would have been a Deus Ex Machina. If Superman showed up it would have been a Deus Ex Machina. Using something that was established not only in the series, but actually used in that very same episode prior to the end makes it not a Deus Ex Machina. It might be a convienient way to resolve the plot, and therefore a plot contrivance, but not every plot contrivance is a Deus Ex Machina.

Uh... no. A "Deus Ex Machina" is when a problem is resolved by someone other than the protagonist.

For instance, in "Lord of the Flies," the story is resolved because a ship comes in to rescue them. This is a "Deus Ex Machina," even though the presense of ships was already foreshadowed in the stories, because the characters themselves do no overcome the problems on the Island.

In the case of this episode, it's not a "Deus Ex Machina," because the characters activate the transporters on their own. One case that WOULD be a "Deus Ex Machina" would be the asteroid episode. After they fix the asteroid problem, the team is stranded in an inoperative space ship. Fortunately, the Tok'ra conveniently show up, and grant them assistance. In this example, the characters do not go back to earth on their own, but simply wait for help to come to them.

illuminarok
August 27th, 2005, 08:18 PM
I was saying the whole time that they should just beam the building into space - well after they found out which building it was. I was like... I wonder if they have enough power to beam the whole building... nah they must have tried that already or they can't or they would have, because it is so obvious. And then they did and I was like, man... that would have been my first choice.

illuminarok
August 27th, 2005, 08:21 PM
Uh... no. A "Deus Ex Machina" is when a problem is resolved by someone other than the protagonist.

For instance, in "Lord of the Flies," the story is resolved because a ship comes in to rescue them. This is a "Deus Ex Machina," even though the presense of ships was already foreshadowed in the stories, because the characters themselves do no overcome the problems on the Island.

In the case of this episode, it's not a "Deus Ex Machina," because the characters activate the transporters on their own. One case that WOULD be a "Deus Ex Machina" would be the asteroid episode. After they fix the asteroid problem, the team is stranded in an inoperative space ship. Fortunately, the Tok'ra conveniently show up, and grant them assistance. In this example, the characters do not go back to earth on their own, but simply wait for help to come to them.

So what you're saying here is that in order for this to be a Deus Ex Machina the Asgard has to show up out of the blue and beam up the building out of nowhere for no apparent reason. Gotcha.

IMForeman
August 27th, 2005, 08:28 PM
Uh... no. A "Deus Ex Machina" is when a problem is resolved by someone other than the protagonist.


No, it's not. A Deus Ex Machina is when the plot is resolved by some incredibly contrived, and completely unestablished plot device that just drops out of nowhere. If for instance, they painted themselves into a corner with this plot, and then at the last second, the Furlings showed up, hit the building with a beam that rendered the Naquadah inert... that would have been a Deus Ex Machina. If Sam had said "I know, we'll use the finklegruber!" Then grabs a device we've never seen before, and shoots the building with a blue light that vaporizes the detonator, that too would be a Deus ex Machina, even though Sam is the one who did it. The very definition of Deus Ex Machina is a quick fix out of a hopeless situation using something that was never established in the text, it has nothing to do with the protaganist not solving it.

-IMF

EDIT: And no, the Tok'ra showing up in "Fail Safe" was also not a Deus ex Machina, as their arrival was requested early in the episode, and the plot was resolved without their aid. Now, what Sam did in that episode kind of was a Deus ex Machina. The whole plot was them getting to the asteroid, dealing with a meteor shower, then planting a bomb and beating it before they ran out of time. Instead, that plan fails and they essentially push a magic button that resolves the whole thing.

Schrodinger82
August 27th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Weird... Thats what this episode was. I mean the whole Jaffa thing on Earth seemed really stupid and made the Jaffa look stupid. I mean they were trying to do this coverly without the Tauri knowing so they send fully alienly armoured Jaffa (forhead showing and all) with STAFF WEAPONS to take out Baal. Wouldn't the more logical choice of been Tauri clothing with hats and zats instead and keeping their cargo ships cloaked?!

That was sort of the point, this is completely new territory for them. Do you think that the Earth based teams look any more covert when they go investigating off world?

In a related note, do the Jaffa really have any technology of their own, or do they just take whatever the Gou'ald use?

Schrodinger82
August 27th, 2005, 08:57 PM
No, it's not. A Deus Ex Machina is when the plot is resolved by some incredibly contrived, and completely unestablished plot device that just drops out of nowhere.

If that's the case, then even classical Deus Ex Machina wouldn't be Deus Ex Machina. After all, how often did playwrights in Greek culture introduce "unestablished Gods" in their stories? Pretty much never. The audience is not only aware of the mythology involved coming into the production, but the characters will often evoke pleas to the Gods throughout the story. For instance, "Hypolytus" ends in a Deus Ex Machina when Artemis shows up, even though Artemis is heavily mentioned throughout the story.

Obviously, your definition is flawed.

For instance, if I write a greek tragedy where one of the characters says "praise Zeus," and then in the end Zeus steps in and kills all the bad guys through no effort on the heroes part, then I'm sure that most people would agree that "Yes, it is still a deus ex machina." Your definition, however, would not.


If for instance, they painted themselves into a corner with this plot, and then at the last second, the Furlings showed up, hit the building with a beam that rendered the Naquadah inert... that would have been a Deus Ex Machina.

Yes it would, regardless of whether or not the Furlings were actually mentioned.


If Sam had said "I know, we'll use the finklegruber!" Then grabs a device we've never seen before, and shoots the building with a blue light that vaporizes the detonator, that too would be a Deus ex Machina, even though Sam is the one who did it.

Plot hole, yes. Deus Ex, no.

Really, though, it depends on a number of circumstances, such as why Carter didn't use the device earlier.


The very definition of Deus Ex Machina is a quick fix out of a hopeless situation using something that was never established in the text, it has nothing to do with the protaganist not solving it.

Really?

The "very definition," you say?

And where, pray tell, are you pulling this "very definition" from?

IMForeman
August 27th, 2005, 09:16 PM
If that's the case, then even Deus Ex Machina wouldn't be Deus Ex Machina. After all, how often did playwrights in Greek culture introduce "unestablished Gods" in their stories? Pretty much never. The audience is not only aware of the mythology involved coming into the production, but the characters will often evoke pleas to the Gods throughout the story.
Obviously, your definition is flawed.
Yes it would, regardless of whether or not the Furlings were actually mentioned.
Plot hole, yes. Deus Ex, no.
Really, though, it depends on a number of circumstances, such as why Carter didn't use the device earlier.
Really?
The "very definition," you say?
And where, pray tell, are you pulling this "very definition" from?

Well, here's a handy one, right here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina)... and funnily enough, it agrees with my take on it.


Deus ex machina (plural dei ex machinis) is Latin for "god from the machine" and is a calque from the Greek "από μηχανής θεός", (pronounced "apo mekhanes theos"). It originated with Greek and Roman theater, when a mechane would lower a god or gods onstage to resolve a hopeless situation. Thus, "god comes from the machine". The phrase deus ex machina has been extended to refer to any resolution to a story which does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is so unlikely it challenges suspension of disbelief, and presumably allows the author to end it in the way he or she wanted. In short, a deus ex machina is a quick fix in a story.

It doesn't say a word about whether the main character does it or not. It's all about resolving a plot with a quick contrivance that had nothing to do with the central plot.

Let's see another one (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=deus+ex+machina&x=0&y=0) :


Main Entry: de·us ex ma·chi·na
Pronunciation: 'dA-&s-"eks-'mä-ki-n&, -'ma-, -"nä; -m&-'shE-n&
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, a god from a machine, translation of Greek theos ek mEchanEs
1 : a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome
2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

Again, my definition seems to be the more apposite. Again, the main character is not mentioned in regard to resolution.

Another (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deus%20ex%20machina) :


deus ex ma·chi·na Audio pronunciation of "deus ex machina" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ks mäk-n, -nä, mk-n)
n.

1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.


That one also fits my definition better, but does lend a little bit of validation to yours.

Does that do the trick for you, or shall I find more?

-IMF

Schrodinger82
August 27th, 2005, 09:28 PM
EDIT: And no, the Tok'ra showing up in "Fail Safe" was also not a Deus ex Machina, as their arrival was requested early in the episode, and the plot was resolved without their aid.

TEAL'C: Perhaps the Tok'ra could be of assistance.

HAMMOND: Unfortunately they've been on the run since the Goa'uld attacked their base at Revanna. We've already sent a message asking for their help but so far there hasn't been any reply.

So what, precisely, prevented them from coming earlier? Or even replying, for that matter. Obviously, something was interfering with their communications that served as an obstacle. Since we have no idea of what cleared up that obstacle, and since the characters didn't solve that obstacle on their own, it is therefore a Deus Ex.

Again, Lord of the Flies is a classical example. Most literary theorist will cite it as an example of Deus Ex, even though they make frequent references to trying to signal ships earlier in the book.


Now, what Sam did in that episode kind of was a Deus ex Machina. The whole plot was them getting to the asteroid, dealing with a meteor shower, then planting a bomb and beating it before they ran out of time. Instead, that plan fails and they essentially push a magic button that resolves the whole thing.

No, Sam solved that problem through deductive reasoning.

In fact, this is a rather classical example of it. For instance, in a movie, a character is kidnapped, drugged, and wakes as prisoner on a deserted Island. After a harrowing story where he fights off the bad guys, he now has to figure out a way to get off the Island. After much searching, he finally finds a boat, and begins to set sail. Now, is this a Deus Ex Machina?

Maybe so -- until you realize that if that boat hadn't been there, then they probably wouldn't have been on that Island in the first place. Hence, it's not only logical to have a way off the Island, but expected. The solution is therefore implied through the problem itself.

In this case, Carter looked at the asteroid and said, "If the Asteroid isn't native to this solar system, then how did it get she?" She then concluded that it had to be carried via a hyperspace window. If a hyperspace window can be used to present the problem, then a hyperspace can be used to present the solution. The solution is implied within the problem.

As for the "magic button," we already know that the ship is capable of opening a hyperdrive. That's how the ship got to Earth in the first place, and being that it's a "cargo ship" and all, it would be pretty useless without one. So how exactly is it a deus ex? The solution to the problem was already their. The resolution was the fact that Carter had to piece it all together first.

So, yeah. Wrong on both counts.

fair_nymph
August 27th, 2005, 09:43 PM
I found this ep to be one of the better eps of the season, so far. It was a pleasant surprise, and I found myself enjoying it much more than most S9 eps.

Likes:

No mention of the Orii -- yes! The Orii bore me to death. They just seem so cheesy and fake and also don't really have any obvious motives for their evil behaviour. And the 'hallowed are the Orii' chant I find so banal, I want to knock myself unconscious every time I hear it. I think the Orii are a good concept but the way that they have manifested and been developed is severely flawed, which is a real shame IMO.

Ba'al return pleased me greatly. He's by far my favourite Goa'uld and one of my favourite characters on the show overall. And he's so darn sexy! *drools* He's also just an incredible actor IMO and plays a bad guy so vividly. My thought about the blonde woman and him (if she isn't hosting the original Ba'al symbiote which is a good theory) -- is that her reasoning for helping him out is so that she can have wild fun with all the extremely hot Ba'al clones. It would be reason enough for me! :D

I'm not a hardcore shipper but I was pretty gleeful over Sam's 'not exactly' -- even though it IS absolutely ambiguous, I choose to interpret as meaning she is dating Jack. I do hope they follow up on this though, one way or the other, I mean it's been SO DRAGGED OUT, can we just have some sort of FINALITY, no matter what it is? *sigh*

I liked how the storyline was linked back to the Trust -- I'd sort of forgotten about that but it was good to see it addressed again.

I also appreciate the female Jaffa -- I think she's one of the best female Jaffa we've seen, in terms of not being skimpily dressed and having a solid character. I hope we see more of her. I'm not fully sure what her deal is yet, but it will be interesting to find out where exactly her loyalties lie.

Dislikes:

Gerak. He really bothers me, although he bothered me less in this episode than he usually does. The way he talks sounds just so affected to my ears, and makes it seem like the actor isn't doing a very good job. Maybe it's also just that I find his character rather lacking in depth and dimension. Or maybe it's just that I am SO BORED of the Jaffa storyline and would be ecstatic if we never heard about the Jaffa ever again. I simply don't care; there's so much else I'd rather see.

Who exactly is commanding SG-1? It's really annoying me that TPTB are not being clear on this matter. If it's not Sam, they're going to have a hell of a time justifying it to the viewers. She is so much more deserving of the command position than Mitchell. I have to say I will interpret it as serious sexism, either on the SGC/air force's part and/or TPTB's part. I suppose it is a VAGUELY possible that Sam was offered the position but turned it down because she didn't want to command -- except that I don't think Sam would turn it down. She's always been so ambitious.

Questions:

Sort of off topic, but what ever happened to Istha?

Would the Ba'al clones REALLY get along? Ba'al doesn't seem like the type who likes to share power, even with carbon copies of himself. And I would think each clone would be out for himself, and gladly stab another clone in the back to further his own cause.

I'm presuming the Ba'al clones were made in the way that Anna was made in the ep 'Resurrection' -- so there isn't actually a discrete symbiote inside the clones that can jump out of the body -- symbiote and body are integrated and mixed and can't be separated. Or at least that was the impression I had from 'Resurrection'. But I wonder how this 'fusing' that occurs during cloning affects the voice and eye-glowing abilities?

Regarding the building being beamed up...I always thought that with beaming up to the ship, you could only beam into the ship. I.e that if you wanted to beam someone/something up, you'd have to beam it into the ship first before you could beam it elsewhere -- i.e. you can't just beam a person from one spot to another without going through the ship. Obviously, the building wouldn't fit. Plothole, or am I missing something?

IMForeman
August 27th, 2005, 09:59 PM
[i]Lotta jabbering snipped...

So, yeah. Wrong on both counts.

I'm gonna ignore the snide attitude. I really don't feel like getting into it.

Parte the firste: The Tok'ra showing up is not a Deus Ex Machina because the central plot to Fail Safe, ie "stopping the asteroid from hitting the Earth" was resolved without their help. If SG-1 did all they could to stop the Asteroid, and failed, then at the last second Jalen of the Tok'ra showed up and stopped it, that can be considered a Deus Ex Machina, though a somewhat weakened one due to their having been referenced earlier in the story. The Tok'ra not responding was not the central issue, and SG-1 didn't have to do anything to resolve it. The Tok'ra are well known for being mercurial and unreliable. As it was, SG-1 stopped the asteroid without the help of the Tok'ra, and the Tok'ra only showed to provide a capstone at the end.

Parte the seconde: The Naquadah nature of asteroid, and it's hyperspace tow were only established moments before Sam came up with the brilliant plan to save the day. It served to not only stymie the actual resolution they had been building throughout the episode, but also allowed for a resolution that Sam really plucked from thin air. It's arguably a Deus Ex Machina. It's arguably not. I'll tell you what. I'll concede you this one. It's totally debatable on this point. The Tok'ra... nope, won't yield that one.

-IMF

Schrodinger82
August 27th, 2005, 10:14 PM
Well, here's a handy one, right here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina)... and funnily enough, it agrees with my take on it.

It doesn't say a word about whether the main character does it or not. It's all about resolving a plot with a quick contrivance that had nothing to do with the central plot.

And last I checked, the "central plot" revolves around the actions of the main character. That's sort of what makes them the "main characters" to begin with. Do you know of any "central plots" that DON'T resolve around the main characters?

I'm also looking for the part asserting your main claim, which was "The very definition of Deus Ex Machina is a quick fix out of a hopeless situation using something that was never established in the text."

For instance, if a hero ends the story by pushing the villain out of a tall building, then it fits both criteria. It is a quick fix, and it relies on something that was never established in the text. But I seriously doubt that anyone would claim that it was a "deus ex machina."

Not to mention the fact that your definition of Deus Ex Machina would omit the very source material from which the phrase derive.


Let's see another one (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=deus+ex+machina&x=0&y=0) :

Again, my definition seems to be the more apposite.

Again, your definition would omit most classical examples of it.


Again, the main character is not mentioned in regard to resolution.

Really? Let's look closer, shall we?

"1: a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome"

Question: Is the God a main character, or is the God separate of the main character?

Because if the God is separate of the main character, then yes, this definition would imply that a Deus Ex machina is when problem is not solved by a main character, but rather by someone else (e.g., god).

If the God IS the main character, then it still would not be a deus ex machina. Why? Becuase the problem still being solved by a main character! For instance, the "Homeric Hymm to Demeter" is a story that places an actual God at the center of the story. Of course, it's still not considered a Deus Ex Machina, because the main character Demeter manages to find her own resolution, rather than assigning it to someone else. "Oh God, You Devil," is likewise not a a "Deus Ex Machina," even though the problem is solved by George Burns playing God. Why? Because God is not an outside force in this story, but rather, the main character.

"2: a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty"

So, just out of character, exactly how often are the "main characters" introduced suddenly and unexpectantly at the very end?


Another (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deus%20ex%20machina) :

That one also fits my definition better, but does lend a little bit of validation to yours.

"1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation."

That's pretty much my definition exactly. Someone outside of the protagonist solves the protagonist's problem.

"2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot."

Key phrase there, "to resolve a situation or untangle a plot." In other words, someone else outside of the main character solves the problem.

3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

Again, pretty much exactly what I said.


Does that do the trick for you, or shall I find more?

Looks like you'll have to if you want to continue with this line of argument.

It should be noted, BTW, that most of the examples in the wikipedia article are rendered invalid by your definition, but not my own. For instance:

In Stephen King's novel The Stand, a minor character who has gone insane in the desert returns to Las Vegas with an atomic bomb, which is set off by an electrical charge taking the shape of a hand and destroying the city. The characters in Boulder believe the charge to have been the "Hand of God." Many of King's novels have a deus ex machina ending. In the Peter Straub/Stephen King novel The Talisman, one of the characters is said to be driving a deus ex machina.

Many comic book characters can be seen as walking dei ex machinis. Wolverine is viewed by many fans of the X-Men comics as such. His mutant powers include an incredibly fast healing ability (making him nearly invincible), enhanced senses, and a skeleton of adamantium, a fictional indestructible metal. Lifeguard, also from the X-Men, is widely considered by her detractors to be the ultimate deus ex. Her mutant ability is to manifest any necessary ability to save lives, which makes her a quick fix for the writers if any characters are stuck in a tight spot. Perhaps the most famous superhero to be labelled a deus ex is Superman himself, as his writers had a tendency to inflate his powers over the years to constantly trump his previous successes. Kryptonite, Superman's only weakness, then became a sort of reverse deus ex machina, which would be called in whenever the writer wanted to explore a conflict which he didn't want Superman to resolve in one punch.

In Isaac Asimov's I, Robot it is used as a part of the description of the relationship between humans and robots.

The character of Puck ends William Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream" with a decidedly deus ex machina flair.

Stephen King's Dark Tower series is loaded with DEMs, but they are accepted as it is said that Ka, or Fate, has manipulated events and placed them in the protagonists' path, at one point in the final book a note from King himself to one of his characters is included to save the lives of Roland and Suzannah.

etc., etc., etc.

IMForeman
August 27th, 2005, 10:22 PM
Yadda... yadda... and yadda

Whatever, man. If you want to be a jerk about it. Like I said, I don't want to get into it. It must hurt, reaching like that, but whatever. Believe what you want to believe. I've said what I think, and you're just not worth more time. I'm gonna go talk to a slightly more stimulating conversationalist.

-IMF
"Hello, wall."

Schrodinger82
August 27th, 2005, 10:38 PM
Parte the firste: The Tok'ra showing up is not a Deus Ex Machina because the central plot to Fail Safe, ie "stopping the asteroid from hitting the Earth" was resolved without their help.

"In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation?"

Now, was being stranded with no way to get back to earth and only a few hours worth of air a difficult situation? Yes or no?


If SG-1 did all they could to stop the Asteroid, and failed, then at the last second Jalen of the Tok'ra showed up and stopped it, that can be considered a Deus Ex Machina, though a somewhat weakened one due to their having been referenced earlier in the story. The Tok'ra not responding was not the central issue, and SG-1 didn't have to do anything to resolve it.

Yes, which is EXACTLY WHY IT QUALIFIES as a Deus Ex. Because the problem was resolved for them.


The Tok'ra are well known for being mercurial and unreliable.

Which I guess would make them what wikipedia would call a "walking dei ex machinis"


Parte the seconde: The Naquadah nature of asteroid, and it's hyperspace tow were only established moments before Sam came up with the brilliant plan to save the day.

Yes, because up until then, she assumed that the asteroid was a "natural disaster." In fact, EVERYONE assumed it was a natural disaster, which is why the Asgard weren't allowed to help them.

Upon closer inspection, she discovered that gravity was greater than expected, which resulted in further investigation, which lead to the realization that the asteroid was not natural. Once she realized that the asteroid wasn't natural, she realized that Gou'ald technology must have been used to create the problem, and therefore it could be used to solve it.

Again, it's deductive reasoning.

I mean, by your logic, every mystery show ever created is a Deus Ex Machina, because the hero doesn't come up with a solution as to who the killer is until the very end.


It's arguably a Deus Ex Machina. It's arguably not. I'll tell you what. I'll concede you this one. It's totally debatable on this point. The Tok'ra... nope, won't yield that one.

Too bad, because the very definitions you provided disagree with you on this one.

Sir Ruff
August 28th, 2005, 01:31 AM
Also who noticed Teal'c's great line plot a course for the far side of the moon And the way he said it. That sounded so 50's sci fi. Got to love that :p

the dancer of spaz
August 28th, 2005, 02:09 AM
Also who noticed Teal'c's great line plot a course for the far side of the moon And the way he said it. That sounded so 50's sci fi. Got to love that :p

Yes! I cracked up and absolutely NO ONE in the room with me knew why. I just thought that that must've been such a funny line to write and say. :P

Nessva
August 28th, 2005, 02:14 AM
For the first time this season I actually liked SG1 better than Atlantis. Which was a nice feeling. For some reason I found a lot of it funny and sat there giggling - like in the Jaffa fight in the offices. Wish something like that would have livend up some of the jobs I've had this year!!! I liked seeing Ba'al again, but that's just becuase the Ori irritate me. I think this episode was the closest we have had so far to it being like the 'old' SG1, a nice action episode with all the team in it. And I was inrigued by Sam saying she wasn't exactly single again...

Schrodinger82
August 28th, 2005, 02:22 AM
Whatever, man. If you want to be a jerk about it. Like I said, I don't want to get into it. It must hurt, reaching like that, but whatever. Believe what you want to believe. I've said what I think, and you're just not worth more time. I'm gonna go talk to a slightly more stimulating conversationalist.

-IMF
"Hello, wall."

Whether or not I'm a jerk is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that have no idea what you're talking, that you're in way over your head on this discussion, or that your own sources contradict you. Everything you've said may sound all well and good, up until you try applying it to actual stories. Then it just sort of falls apart, becoming completely worthless in the process.

Great job trying to claim the high ground on this, though. Really big of you, and not transparent in the least.

vikingjedi
August 28th, 2005, 03:16 AM
So let me get this straight, we have a highly advanced alien civilization called the Ori trying to take over the galaxy and there is no mention of them at all in this episode. Instead the show focuses on the snake heads who are already defeated and considered weak now. Made no sense at all.

Vala was highly missed too. It was weird, it seemed like Carter shouldn't have been there. I know she is just returning but she came across as the leader without even trying. Thats not a good thing when they're trying to make Daniel the lead character. Mitchell looked lost and Teal'c is the only one that seemed comfortable. The chemistry they built earlier this season has been changed again (for the worse) and thats a shame because I was really digging the show up until this point.

Standback
August 28th, 2005, 03:40 AM
Much as I enjoyed Beachhead last week, this week's ep was a whole different level of SG1 goodness. The past six episodes felt like SG1: The Sequel. Not by any means poorly done or failing to interest, but: new general, new commander, all our old enemies are dead and defeated and now we've got a brand new one that's utterly unrelated to anything that's gone before.

"Ex Deus Machina," though... a joy to behold. We've got Goa'uld, we've got NID, we've got Jaffa. With both Jaffa and Goa'uld, we've got the same old faces, brand new twist - promising new and exciting episodes in the future. This, to me, is one of the best things about a good SF series - the characters and events build up on each other, interact with each other, and get to new places in a believable, interesting and exciting way - thus setting the scene for more great characters, more great events.

The new plotline for Ba'al is wonderful. Goa'uld, among us, running our corperations... It's a whole new Goa'uld. :) And seeing Ba'al in a business suit is indeed a heck of a kick. I'm very curious as to what he'll be doing next...

I confess advance anticipation of the Ba'al clones. I suspected something of the sort the moment Carter mentioned that he was supposed to be both on Earth and somewhere out in space... and I was pretty sure as soon as we saw him both at the hotel and live on TV. But it was very well done, and while clones are something of a cliche, they're one I love, and that can be used in many different and interesting ways. Does Ba'al have any specific goal with all these clones? How many does he have? Time will, one may hope, tell.

The Jaffa involvement was also very interesting - we've seen tension growing and growing, and now the Jaffa are actively interfering in Earth affairs. Teal'c's attempts at keeping the Council straight are interesting, but not very successful - I hope he'll be able to do something about the Jaffa other than just talk to them (much as I love to hear Teal'c actually get lines!).

...and yeah, assuming nobody notices that a skyscraper was teleported away rather than blown up is absurd. That was rather annoying.

Great episode - I hope for many more to follow.

LoveYouBaby
August 28th, 2005, 04:45 AM
What can I say about this episode, it's FREAKY!

LOL :D

I specially didn't read much into the spoilers for this episode, all I knew was that it's an Earth-based episode and Baal is on the loose.

I quite enjoyed this episode, even though I hate earth-based episodes. At the first scene when the Jaffa was running through the woods, I thought I was watching Atlantis by mistake, cos you know the whole running in the forest/wood.

This episode was excellently executed IMO, Carter is back for good, got mentions of Cassandra and the Tok'ra. Agent Barrett is back too, and I couldn't help but smile with him when Carter said, "Pete and I broke up". I was like, GET IN!

My hatred for Garak continues to grow, he's such a hypocrite. I so can't wait for him to die! So not use to Cliff Simon's accent, lol

Anyway, best scenes was when the Prometheus beams Carter from the stake-out truck to the building then the beaming of the entire building into space.

The end scene was just so freaky!

Nice episode.

Albion
August 28th, 2005, 04:49 AM
Well, this one reminded me a lot of Sleepwalkers. Not one of the most exciting episodes I've ever seen...and this one won't be high up on my rewatch list either, I suspect. (Although I do have to qualify that by saying that all of my opinions on the season so far are subject to change when I finally get to see them properly on SKY. I often find that I miss things in these little dls that I see later that do change my mind on some of them. So it's very possible I'll find this one terribly exciting in a couple of months. :D )

What I liked about this one:

Mitchell insisting SG1 wear the patches.

Sam's 'Not exactly'. Very nice touch. Vague enough to suit everyone, doesn't tie anything down, yet is enough to get the shippers' minds burning overtime with the possibilities. :p ). Must admit I had begun to nod off in my seat until that point, at which time my shipper radar pricked up and went 'hel-lo'. :D

Getting the reasons why Sam was at Area 51. Again very nice touch mentioning Cassie and letting us know that she did have some reaction to Janet's death.

Sam beaming off the truck - cute moment.

As for the rest of it:

Was very surprised that Mitchell was in the background so much. I'm not in the camp of complaining about this because I do believe that it was wiser of TPTB to bring him in slowly rather than thrust him into the forefront right away. Still, with Vala gone and Sam back, I'd thought that this episode would be the one to mark him out as being in charge. So I was just a little surprised that didn't happen.

In fact, the whole who's in charge thing is confusing me. Last night it really detracted from watching the episode, because I kept getting distracted trying to figure out who was in charge of SG1. It wasn't that much of an issue this week because the team was split up, but it still bothered me that I couldn't figure out who it was.

As an aside on that, I feel that they're going to have a problem if they want Mitchell as team leader. Mitchell was introduced in Avalon as this almost fanatical fan of SG1. It was clear that he hero-worshipped them, probably had posters of them up on his locker <g>, had them on a pedestal a hundred feet high... This is a pretty subordinate position for the character to be in. And, yes, his attitude has changed somewhat since he got involved with them, but introducing him in that subordinate position to start with kind of means that's how I see him still, now. So it's going to take a lot for me to accept him in a superior position now. Thanks to how he was introduced to us, I just can't see him that way. And there was nothing in this episode either, I have to say, that screamed to me that Mitchell was a natural leader of men (and women) like Jack was. In the briefing room scenes, Carter seemed much more dominant than Mitchell did.

Anyway, back to the episode.

It was lovely to see Agent Barrett back, but he was woefully underused. Just seemed to be there to ask Sam about her personal life so we could get the twin facts of Cassie and 'not exactly'.

Surprisingly, the Jaffa scenes didn't bore me to tears. But I can't say they especially enthralled me either. Although I have to say that I was quite intrigued by that Jaffa priestess on the council. Much more interested in her as a character than Garek, I have to confess.

Ba'al seemed...diminished somehow in that suit and in a contemporary Earth setting. Didn't give me the shivers down the spine he used to, I'm afraid.

As for the clones...well, I'm afraid that was just a touch too BSG for this viewer. Just reminded me of the end of the mini series. OTOH, I was relieved to discover that my favourite Goa'uld hadn't bitten the bullet just yet. <g>

So...kind of a non-event for me, this one. It may grow on me on subsequent viewings and it had its moments. But it was too much talk and not enough character relationship for this fan. And I did find myself irked by the lacklustre, downbeat way that Sam was brought back into the fold. I wasn't looking for fireworks or 'Welcome back, Sam' banners. But a little more drama would have been welcome. Especially over the issue of Mitchell asking her back. I would have liked to have seen some quandary in that for Sam, some weighing up of the pros and cons perhaps. Not a huge amount of time spent on it, but just one scene might have been nice. As it is, I feel a little cheated on that side of things.

Ah well...that's what fanfic is for, right? ;)



...and yeah, assuming nobody notices that a skyscraper was teleported away rather than blown up is absurd.

You know this really irked me watching the episode last night. Got really bugged by that 'dumb attempt' to explain it away too with the reporter at the end. Or, at least, that's how I saw it then. And then, just as I was about to add this into my post and say it sucked, I suddenly remembered something.

Sam said at one point that they had evacuated a five block area around the building. Now that makes a difference for me. If that was the case, it suddenly seems much more plausible to me that there was no one around to happen to be passing on the street or looking out of a window from the other buildings when the building vanished. So what does that leave? Satellite pictures? Well, most of the countries with satellites in space are in on the Stargate programme - aren't they? They could easily be persuaded to keep quiet on what their technology registered.

Does it take care of every single possibility that someone could have seen something they shouldn't? No, of course not. But it's enough to have taken care of the objections I had last night when I watched the episode. The odd person there I can accept. We already know that the SGC can silence them. I just couldn't accept that there were dozens of people in the buildings surrounding it and in the general area and all of them saw zip. But if they'd all been evacuated out of the area and it was practically a ghost town when the building was beamed up - well that's a whole different story and enough for me to buy the premise. Just. <g>


Thats not a good thing when they're trying to make Daniel the lead character.

They are? Where does this come from? I've seen no indication that this is the case on screen and it wouldn't make a lot of sense to me that this would be the aim of TPTB. Mitchell, yes. But Daniel? Sorry, not seeing it. As I've said earlier though, I'd definitely agree that Sam looked in charge without seeming to try. As an aspect of her character I really enjoyed seeing that. But, again, in regard to them wanting Mitchell as leader, it was a little confusing vibe in those scenes.

Albion :)

Maxum
August 28th, 2005, 07:34 AM
They are? Where does this come from? I've seen no indication that this is the case on screen and it wouldn't make a lot of sense to me that this would be the aim of TPTB. Mitchell, yes. But Daniel? Sorry, not seeing it.
Albion :)

Sorry, I don't see Mitchell as the "lead character" either. I think Daniel would have that position long before Mitchell with all of Daniel's experiences so far. That said, however, there are no leads on SG-1; it's a team effort. :)

rosewood
August 28th, 2005, 07:58 AM
Wow, so much plot, so poorly executed.

This story could have been so much better if they came to it by having the characters do things that show the story unfold versus telling it around a table, walking down halls or looking at consoles. An episode that could have been good instead highlighted all the weaknesses in this show.

First off, SG1 should have gone hunting for the Jaffa on earth and figured out that Ba'al was on earth themselves. Who goes to their tenuous ally the Jaffa and says "hey, we found your spy"? First you figure out what the spy is doing there. Then later you have a hold card to play.

I love the Ba’al character. The best part of Ba’al is how he rankles the members of SG-1 when he interacts with them. In this episode they never had a real-time pissing contest with the guy though. Ba'al was incredibly flat and non-threatening just talking on a video screen. And no humour. Though nice suit Ba'al.

The Ba’al murder was another missed opportunity. If he were the real Ba’al, getting really executed, there would have been alot more pomp and circumstance and dramatic music. And they should have just left Ba’al presumably dead. That leaves you wide open to have another earth episode where Walter runs into Landry’s office and says “hey, Ba’al’s on Larry King so I guess he’s not dead” surprise moment. A wasted opportunity for some suspense and drama with Ba'al and a more interesting story about what Ba’al is up to could be developed over more time.

Compound the lame plotting with the dull directing – how many reaction shots to people standing around talking do we need? Instead of team working together, we have people scattered all over the place. Teal’c and Mitchell went back and forth to Dakara so many times, I hope they got frequent flyer miles. ;)

Teal’c! Finally the man has something to do, but it's underwhelming. His fight with Gerak could have easily been the focus of the entire episode. Instead of letting Teal’c's fight with Gerak play out with more a few more rounds of duplicity and wrangling, and let the story end with Teal’c walking away to ponder his defeat, they went for the lame Ba’al clone trick.

I found this a fairly suspense-less episode, despite all the information. It was nice to see Ba’al; love hearing Cliff Simon’s real South African voice. The actors did as much as they could with the few character moments they had – the badge scene, Carter telling whos-it her backstory, Teal’c’s return in defeat.

A few disciplined choices about the plot and story could have made this a good episode. I get the feeling TPTB are a bunch of guys going in different directions. They have no plan for the character or plot arcs for this season. Maybe Robert Cooper has some ideas; he’s written the good episodes so far. The Vala episodes felt like each guy got a chance to write a Vala episode, with no regard for continuity of the characters or the larger season story. Introduce the Ori, next week go on a wild goose chase treasure hunt. Back to the Ori, then an earth-based Ba’al episode… no momentum.

For me, the whole of this episode was way less than the sum of its parts.

IMForeman
August 28th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Whether or not I'm a jerk is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that have no idea what you're talking, that you're in way over your head on this discussion, or that your own sources contradict you. Everything you've said may sound all well and good, up until you try applying it to actual stories. Then it just sort of falls apart, becoming completely worthless in the process.

Great job trying to claim the high ground on this, though. Really big of you, and not transparent in the least.

I don't care if you feel I'm being transparent. My own sources didn't contradict me, they completely validated me. You were wrong, and I feel I totally proved it. You did make some points, and I acknowleged them when you did, but you just kept banging on with the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality that shows me that you know you were wrong. Nothing proves a weak position more than becoming insulting in a debate, and nothing undermines that position more.

I'll address your post this once more, then you're frankly going on the ignore list.


"In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation?"

Now, was being stranded with no way to get back to earth and only a few hours worth of air a difficult situation? Yes or no?


My point, which I've been trying to make, and you have been completely ignoring is that the being stuck on an asteroid at the end of the episode was irrelevant. The main plot of the episode was stopping that asteroid. SG1 stopped the Asteroid completely on their own, without aid from the Tok'ra. Jalen's arrival at the end was just a postscript to the plot. The Tok'ra were not used in the main plot at all beyond a casual reference to a request for their assistance, and the problem with communication was not a problem for SG-1 to resolve and it's being resolved for them is not a Deus ex for 2 important reasons: 1, it's not plot relevant in any other way than to say "we have to do this the hard way" and 2, the mere act of a problem resolving itself is not always a deus ex machina anyway, as my links showed that a DeM needs to be a resolution that makes no internal logical sense to the story.



Quote:
The Tok'ra are well known for being mercurial and unreliable.

Which I guess would make them what wikipedia would call a "walking dei ex machinis"

Which just shows that you didn't understand that one either. A "walking dues ex machina" would be someone who always has the ability to resolve the plot when he/she enters the story, no matter how bleak. The Asgard often wind up being used like this. Hopeless situation, call the Asgard. I think Anubis was a way of sort of taking that away from them a bit, but it should be noted that the Asgard while seemingly DeM, actually were often used in ways that didn't classify as DeM's. "Thor's Chariot" is a perfect example, and on the surface seems to be a DeM. The Asgard decend from the sky at the bleakest moment and extricate them from an intractible situation... that's almost the textbook Deus ex Machina... except for the fact that Daniel and Sam had been working all episode to bring this about... it fits in the internal consistancy of the episode, and was established in a slow build up. The Asgard didn't just show up out of nowhere, they were called. The entire b-plot of the episode was there to establish them, and contact them. So, their arrival at the end was a result of the plot. The Asgard resolved the episode's plot, but they were not a surprise arrival.

The Tok'ra though, more often then not will not help them out of a situation unless it suits them, and just as often wind up getting them into trouble. They are not used as a "get out of jail free" card that can be used to resolve any situation. IMO, the Tok'ra are often just this side of useless most of the time.

Now, you're going on the ignore list. You could have chosen to debate, you chose to get arrogant and frankly insulting. I can't imagine you'll say anything I'll lament missing.

-IMF

golfbooy
August 28th, 2005, 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by vikingjedi:
I know she is just returning but she came across as the leader without even trying.

Orginally Posted by Albion:
In the briefing room scenes, Carter seemed much more dominant than Mitchell did.
I have to say that I agree with this. In Ex Deus Machina Carter seemed to very much be the leader to me. Maybe it's because Mitchell seemed so subordinate to Teal'c, but I'm not picking up on any "I"m the leader of SG-1" vibes from Mitchell. So far, seven episodes into season nine, I've seen no indication that Mitchell is in any way qualified to lead any SG team, let alone SG-1. He seems to be extremely qualified to be part of the team; he's certainly more qualified than Jonas ever was. And Ben Browder is doing a great job of conveying the newness of the whole SGC experience through Mitchell. He's very eager and very enthusiastic, but also very green. And, as was said above, he's clearly not the natural leader with a dominating presence that Jack O'neill was.

I understand that neither Daniel nor Teal'c is ever going to be considered "the leader", despite their ridiculously impressive resumes. But, once Carter returns, I can't see any real way to explain why the military officer with the most gate travel experience, the foremost practical expert on the Stargate itself, and the former leader of SG-1 who has been gone for, oh, a couple of months, wouldn't have command. It just doesn't make sense. Add to that the fact that Carter, at least to me, seems to be commanding during those scenes when someone has to be in charge, and I can't see Mitchell having much of a claim to command. If the writers are intent on Mitchell having command, then I'm going to need a scene where either Carter explains why she's not taking it, or a scene where Landry explains why she's not getting it.

Traveler Enroute1
August 28th, 2005, 09:32 AM
In fact, the whole who's in charge thing is confusing me. Last night it really detracted from watching the episode, because I kept getting distracted trying to figure out who was in charge of SG1. It wasn't that much of an issue this week because the team was split up, but it still bothered me that I couldn't figure out who it was.
Albion :)

The issue of whose in command has, IMO, been left deliberately vague. To me it seems that Landry is directing the team, sending Sam and Daniel one place, Mitchell and Tea'lc another (as Hammond used to do). So far, only Beachhead had SG-1 proper in action. Maybe it's still too soon for TPTB to make it official one way or the other. My own take is that Mitchell will assume command, simply because this is the NEW SG-1; the original team had disbanded through voluntary reassignment, and there wasn't anyone left to be on it.

The clincher has to be a scene where Sam confirms and accepts Mitchell's command. Then again, we could be immensely shocked and Sam will take over...Naaah. :rolleyes:

Just sayin'.

AGateFan
August 28th, 2005, 09:49 AM
The issue of whose in command has, IMO, been left deliberately vague. To me it seems that Landry is directing the team, sending Sam and Daniel one place, Mitchell and Tea'lc another (as Hammond used to do). So far, only Beachhead had SG-1 proper in action. Maybe it's still too soon for TPTB to make it official one way or the other. My own take is that Mitchell will assume command, simply because this is the NEW SG-1; the original team had disbanded through voluntary reassignment, and there wasn't anyone left to be on it.

The clincher has to be a scene where Sam confirms and accepts Mitchell's command. Then again, we could be immensely shocked and Sam will take over...Naaah. :rolleyes:

Just sayin'.

That would be the greatest best kept secret of Stargate history.

I think it’s pretty clear that Mitchell is going to be "in command". Although I think Carter has been more commanding so far (2 eps) and is far more qualified for the job (8 years). I agree this begs for a scene between Mitchell and Carter where she says something like "you want the paper work, the meetings and the 24X7 on call paging... go for it." But I suspect in best TPTB form they will simply ignore the entire subject and Mitchell will just be "in command" in the next ep no further explanation.

However, I also suspect that there is not going to be a lot of "orders" being thrown around. Seems to me that it’s going to be more of a consensus thing. Not sure how that’s going to work in some situations but that’s what it is looking like. Besides Daniel and Teal'c are both civilians whom Mitchell begged to be on the team, so if they don’t follow one of his orders what is he going to do? Put them on report? Have them thrown off the team? It would be mildly interesting to have an ep deal with such a thing (ala Rodney Mckay), but not if it got oppressively contentious for too many eps.

So from the show and USAF perspective he will be "in command" but when it comes down to whats actually going on On Screen I suspect you will get more of a feeling that whoever has the most experience on whatever subject the ep is dealing with will be in charge.

GatetheWay
August 28th, 2005, 11:54 AM
That was sort of the point, this is completely new territory for them. Do you think that the Earth based teams look any more covert when they go investigating off world?
In season one's 'Bloodlines' Chulak was mostly knew territory to SG-1 but they had the common sense to go back there DISGUISED as Jaffa. The Jaffa have known the Tauri for eight years and I think they would of at least tried to fit in like any good covert op. For cryin' out loud! Even the Goauld knew enough not wear their usual goddy clothing.

Edit: Oh, and may I remind you of a little episode called 'Rules of Engagement' (http://http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s3/309.shtml)? I rest my case.

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 28th, 2005, 11:56 AM
Oh, my....

:eek:

Excellent episode, this week. We have a team. Very nice. I have to admit to getting a tear in me eye and giving a thumbs up when Teal'c, the last hold out, accepted his SG-1 patch. :)

The bomb isn't in the building, the bomb is the building. OI! Why weren't there like fifty-one gazillion tv cameras trained on the building when it went up? I guess Homelworld security must be getting very good at "securing the perimeter...." Ah, gas; the versatile scapegoat. :p So is the entire gas company in on the Stargate secret, or does the military own that utility?

Nice nod to Cassie's existence. Guess she's not such a "tough kid" afterall(Heroes 2). And poor Barrett; did he ever look happy when Sam said she and Pete were history. That was a very nice bone the shippers got - not much meat, but, pretty juicy, I'd say.

The Jaffa storyline has never looked so good - and this from someone who's always enjoyed the Jaffa stories. Garek is no dummy. It would be intertesting to compare Garek to Bra'tac and see how different and how similar their survival tactics were during their careers under their Goa'uld masters.

That last scene was a jaw dropper. Not totally unexpected since we got a couple of hints during the episode, but just seeing that Multiplicity scene was kinda freeekay!

Great ep. Boy, Earth's got fires raging on every front, now! :eek: Fun! :D

starfox
August 28th, 2005, 12:20 PM
This thought flitted through my head briefly as I was watching this ep, but it didn't really hit me until this morning.

Is anyone reading this young enough to remember reading the Animorphs book series? Because the Trust/NID/Baal storyline began to remind me of the quiet Yeerk infiltration, especially the Baal part because that is so not Goa'uld style. Although the Baal-as-businessman scenario was way cooler than anything Applegate could have done.

Just a random thought.

jckfan55
August 28th, 2005, 12:20 PM
My 2 cents. An ok episode, but then Earth/NID episodes tend to be my least favorite. I like that the team seems to be ready to go now & look forward to seeing the *team* offworld together. Loved the look Sam gave Mitchell when accepting the SG1 patch, though I wished for just a tad more explanation of why she came back. I assume it was partly as Barrett said, she wouldn't be happy in a desk job for long. Glad to finally get some reference to Cassandra.

jree
August 28th, 2005, 12:24 PM
Okay SG-1 has a lot of enemies and/or rivals now: the Ori, Ba'al (plural), other Goa'uld, hostile jaffa, and the Lucian alliance. Got rid of the replicators and Anubis but they still are getting more and more enemies. It would be totally cool to see how this plays out the rest of the season.

Albion
August 28th, 2005, 01:08 PM
Sorry, I don't see Mitchell as the "lead character" either. I think Daniel would have that position long before Mitchell with all of Daniel's experiences so far. That said, however, there are no leads on SG-1; it's a team effort

I'd like to agree with you on this one. But I think it's been made pretty clear by TPTB that they brought BB in as team leader/leading man. He's first in the titles - I greatly suspect that if we still had the old titles we had before, he'd have his name above the title as RDA did - and the publicity has focused on him as such.

I think you have to see this in a different light between production needs and characters. The two are quite different animals. Not the same thing at all.

If you're talking about characters in the SGC universe and how they would interact, I see no reason why Mitchell or Daniel should be elevated to a position higher than anyone else and if you're talking about who leads SG1, then it seems to me that Carter makes the most logical sense character-wise.

But I'm not talking about this aspect, but production needs. What TPTB want for the show to bring in the big bucks and the highest ratings. And for that, they do seem to have decided they need a hero - a leading man to take the place of the one they had for 8 years - Jack. Enter BB. That's what he was brought in to be, it seems obvious from the publicity already done on S9, and that's the role he's been paid to play.

So I would be mighty surprised if he doesn't take charge of SG1 soon and start doing hero stuff. ;)

As I say, character-wise, it's going to be a hard sell for me because of all the aspects of the characters we've seen so far. Mitchell doesn't strike me as the team leader type. I just don't get that vibe from him. But that may change. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.


However, I also suspect that there is not going to be a lot of "orders" being thrown around. Seems to me that it’s going to be more of a consensus thing. Not sure how that’s going to work in some situations but that’s what it is looking like. Besides Daniel and Teal'c are both civilians whom Mitchell begged to be on the team, so if they don’t follow one of his orders what is he going to do? Put them on report? Have them thrown off the team? It would be mildly interesting to have an ep deal with such a thing (ala Rodney Mckay), but not if it got oppressively contentious for too many eps.

And, of course, Daniel has more than once in the past proven to be very defensive of Carter's position in the team, often arguing that she should be in charge, even when she didn't want him to. :p So it could be an interesting dynamic. Although I tend to agree with the poster who said the probable upshot will be that TPTB just ignore the issue and pretend it's not there. Pity, because it could be an interesting character dynamic to play out.

I agree with you too about Mitchell being the type of team leader who won't exactly be commanding, leading more by concensus than firm rule. And this is what is concerning me about him, a little. Jack goofed around, but you always knew that offworld, when the chips were down, he could take command of his team and the situation in a heartbeat. Plus, he had a lot of field experience, knew all the tricks, the ways to bend the rules to get you out of a tight spot.

I just don't get that vibe from Mitchell. And a looser, less firm command style is fine when the situation the team is in is as in EDM. But I'm less sure it's going to pass muster offworld when the bullets are flying. At such a time a team needs to know absolutely what the command structure is and who they should be jumping to obey.

Course, looking at the promo for next week, looks like we may find out whether Mitchell has the leadership experience and skill to pull it off then. And it's partly for that reason that I'm curious to see this one.

Albion :)

Schrodinger82
August 28th, 2005, 01:20 PM
I don't care if you feel I'm being transparent. My own sources didn't contradict me, they completely validated me.

THen why do the examples listed on the wikipedia article not fit your desscription? For instance:

In William Golding's Lord of the Flies, at the end of the book, when no resolution is in sight, the boys are saved by the royal navy.

The book in "Lord of the Flies" mentions ships throughout the book. Trying to get a ship to rescue them is one of the main plots, and we actually see a ship pass by early in the novel. Yet despite that fact, we still considered to be a Deus Ex, because the "central plot" of the story is still unresolved for the main characters.

In Isaac Asimov's I, Robot it is used as a part of the description of the relationship between humans and robots.

In this case, robots themselves are considered a Deus Ex, even though robots are the center of the story! Hence, it doesn't fit your description. I think Isaac Asimov would understand Deus Ex Machina better than yourself.

The character of Puck ends William Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream" with a decidedly deus ex machina flair.

In this case, Puck is considered a Deus Ex Machina, even though he appears early in the play! Why? Because he is not a main character, and his actions are not part of the "central plot."

In The Wizard of Oz, just before Dorothy and her companions reach the Emerald City, the Wicked Witch of the West produces a giant field of poppies that puts Dorothy, Toto and the Cowardly Lion to sleep. The Scarecrow and the Tinman cry for help, and Glinda, the Good Witch of the North, produces a snow shower that wakes everyone up.

Again, we already know Glinda's a good Witch, we already know she has magical powers. But it's still considered a Deus Ex, because the main characters don't solve the problem on their own.

At the end of the film Dodgeball: A True Underdog Story, the treasure chest containing the main character's gambling winnings has the phrase "Deus ex Machina" written on it. (The joke being that the prize money will be the thing that solves the problem in a flash)

Here's one just for fun. If the "very definition" of a Deus Ex was something not pre-established, then how does the money being a Deus Ex factor into "Dodgeball?"

In Metal Gear Solid, the ending finds Solid Snake and a companion (either Otacon or Meryl Silverburgh, depending on a choice the player makes) trapped under a crashed Jeep after attempting to escape Liquid Snake and the bombing of the island. Liquid, armed with an assault rifle, staggers forward, about to kill the two. The deus ex machina occurs when a virus known as "FOX-DIE" (unknowingly injected into Solid Snake to spread throughout the base, killing the terrorists and silencing the hostages) activates, causing Liquid to suffer a fatal heart attack. We later learn in a special section of the sequel, Metal Gear Solid 2, that Naomi Hunter, the woman who programmed FOX-DIE to kill Solid Snake because he killed her brother, Gray Fox, set FOX-DIE to randomly activate at no predictable time after it came into contact with Snake's DNA. Liquid and Solid were both clones of the same man, and therefore genetic twins.

Again, if you played the games, we already see the virus show up within the first chapter, and it's described in-depth as the game progresses. Yet the appearence at the end is still considered a Deus Ex, because Solid wasn't the one who stopped Liquid on his own.

In Adaptation, the main character (who is a screenwriter writing a screenplay of The Orchid Thief) takes a screenwriting class and is told by the script guru not to end his movie with a deus ex machina. Because of this, he deliberately uses the device.

And finally, let's have a look at this one. Just out of curiousity, how does this one factor into your definition? By all accounts, it's a Deus Ex Machina, in fact that's the very way in which this ending is introduced! Yet, by your definition, it would not be a Deus Ex Machina, because the very idea of "Deus Ex Machina" in itself was already "pre-established" early in the movie.

etc., etc., etc.

Ignore them all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that your own source still contradicts you on this matter. Claiming that they do not would basically be lying. You wouldn't want to be a liar, do you?


You were wrong, and I feel I totally proved it.

Uh-huh. And where, exactly did you do that?

Was it the part where you cited a page full of examples that contradicted your definition? Because I don't think that worked.

How about the part where I pointed out that even classical Deus Ex machina, as in the very technique that the Greek playwrights were referring to when they used the term, wouldn't work under your description either? To which you replied... nadda. But I guess that showed me, huh?


ou did make some points, and I acknowleged them when you did, but you just kept banging on with the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality that shows me that you know you were wrong.

"Hello, Kettle? You're black!"


My point, which I've been trying to make, and you have been completely ignoring is that the being stuck on an asteroid at the end of the episode was irrelevant.

They were trapped in abort, running out of air, with no way to get back on Earth. It was a life or death situation for the team. If the former happened, then no more show.

I would call that pretty darn relevant.


The main plot of the episode was stopping that asteroid. SG1 stopped the Asteroid completely on their own, without aid from the Tok'ra. Jalen's arrival at the end was just a postscript to the plot.

Irrelevant. Once again, look at the defintion that you posted:

In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.

The definition still holds up. The heroes are in a difficult situation, and the Gods have been lowered down on stage to rescue them. The example fits the definition that you yourself posted on Deus Ex Machina.

By denying that the definition does hold up, you are therefore contradicted by the very source that you posted.

Good job.


Which just shows that you didn't understand that one either. A "walking dues ex machina" would be someone who always has the ability to resolve the plot when he/she enters the story, no matter how bleak.

You mean like showing up in the nick of time while the team was still stranded in orbit?


The Asgard didn't just show up out of nowhere, they were called.

Funny, I know I sure didn't see an exception in the definition that said, "In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation -- unless they were called first, in which case it's not."

Again, by that logic, classical deus ex machina wouldn't qualify, since the chorus in greek plays would frequently evoke the gods in their dialogue, make sacrifices and offerings, etc. For instance:

ATTENDANTS enter, singing. They move to worship at the altar of ARTEMIS.

HIPPOLYTUS
Come follow, friends, singing to Artemis, daughter of Zeus, throned in the sky, whose votaries we are.

ATTENDANTS
Lady goddess, awful queen, daughter of Zeus, all hail! hail! of Latona and of Zeus, peerless mid the virgin choir, who hast thy dwelling in heaven's wide mansions at thy noble father's court, in the golden house of Zeus. All hail! most beauteous Artemis, lovelier far than all the daughters of Olympus!

Guess who shows up in the end in a classical Greek examples of Deus Ex Machina?

No, really, guess.

This is what I mean when I say that you're in over your head on this. You simply lack the background to discuss this topic in terms of contextual meaning.


The Tok'ra though, more often then not will not help them out of a situation unless it suits them, and just as often wind up getting them into trouble. They are not used as a "get out of jail free" card that can be used to resolve any situation. IMO, the Tok'ra are often just this side of useless most of the time.

Wow, and the same applies for the Gods in classical literature as well!


Now, you're going on the ignore list. You could have chosen to debate, you chose to get arrogant and frankly insulting. I can't imagine you'll say anything I'll lament missing.

-IMF

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2715

"3) IF LOSING AN ARGUMENT, FEIGN FRUSTRATION AND THEN CLAIM YOU'RE BLOCKING THE PERSON. Every person on the Internet harbors a secret fear of having their communications blocked by somebody, particularly when they're devastating that person in an argument. If you ever make a critical mistake and discover you cannot match either the intensity or intelligence of the person whom you're facing up against, simply descend into a spiral of frustration, one ending with a curt goodbye and notice that this person will never, ever, ever, ever be able to contact you again because you are putting them on your fabled ignore list of doom."

SGalisa
August 28th, 2005, 01:59 PM
* Teal'c speaks! :D
And shares his truest feelings, too! (resting at the SGC is better than resting at Dakara, or anywhere else.) I guess he's witnessed too many Kinsey incidents, so he knows what's about to happen next in Jaffa-land.

Interesting idea what they did with the building - beaming it out into space.

* Sam: not exactly single, ehh? engaged then? :p

* Ba'al: Ba'al is bailing out? :D *that* is so unlike him, unless he's pretending to be the next Ming the Merciless character.

In the meantime, will the real bad Ba'al please stand up? Is that *why* the goa'uld have suddenly abandoned the use of their unique, deep voices? Jacob never used a device with the Tok'ra to create the voice, so how are the goa'uld able to do this?

Anyway... is Ba'al really on earth or hiding elsewhere somewhere in a distant galaxy... and maybe making plea bargain deals with the Tok'ra for refuge? (that'd be a switch! the bully seeks shelter from the more compliant personalities of its species.) ;)

Traveler Enroute1
August 28th, 2005, 02:33 PM
That would be the greatest best kept secret of Stargate history.

I think it’s pretty clear that Mitchell is going to be "in command". Although I think Carter has been more commanding so far (2 eps) and is far more qualified for the job (8 years). I agree this begs for a scene between Mitchell and Carter where she says something like "you want the paper work, the meetings and the 24X7 on call paging... go for it." But I suspect in best TPTB form they will simply ignore the entire subject and Mitchell will just be "in command" in the next ep no further explanation.

However, I also suspect that there is not going to be a lot of "orders" being thrown around. Seems to me that it’s going to be more of a consensus thing. Not sure how that’s going to work in some situations but that’s what it is looking like. Besides Daniel and Teal'c are both civilians whom Mitchell begged to be on the team, so if they don’t follow one of his orders what is he going to do? Put them on report? Have them thrown off the team? It would be mildly interesting to have an ep deal with such a thing (ala Rodney Mckay), but not if it got oppressively contentious for too many eps.

So from the show and USAF perspective he will be "in command" but when it comes down to whats actually going on On Screen I suspect you will get more of a feeling that whoever has the most experience on whatever subject the ep is dealing with will be in charge.

Once upon another thread, I said something similar, only I used the words, "shared command." I got zatted and staff blasted no end! Main comment: "Shared command would be disaster waiting to happen." Reason being well put by Albion:

And a looser, less firm command style is fine when the situation the team is in is as in EDM. But I'm less sure it's going to pass muster offworld when the bullets are flying. At such a time a team needs to know absolutely what the command structure is and who they should be jumping to obey.

If they're going to base things on Air Force guidelines, only one or the other will be designated the leader of the team. Of course, this being Sci-Fi and tv and all, how the two work it out amongst themselves is up to the writers and directors. Not a problem for me, although I'm with the Carter-has-earned-command camp.

Time will tell...well, most. IN TWO WEEKS - :eek:

Just sayin'.

Giantevilhead
August 28th, 2005, 02:57 PM
If the Jaffa council does an autopsy of Baal, which they probably won't, they'll find that there's no naquadah in the symbiote's blood and realize that it's not the real Baal. If they capture any more Baals, they could keep him imprisoned for a week to see if it goes through sarcophagus withdraw, if he doesn't then it's not the real Baal.

Gargen
August 28th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Well they are all the real baal they all have the same memories, and the same DNA both host and human, thats the point if anyone of them gets killed another one just pops up.

Snork
August 28th, 2005, 03:10 PM
But the question is do symbiotes clone as well as human host bodies do? Remember the clone killed by Gerak did do the little glowing eyes number... and I'm assuming the "real" Ba'al was the one who walked out of the room to go to bed. But having said that... it was an interesting twist to have that many Ba'als. Quadruple the fun! :D

Remember that in Tin Man, the first robot made from Teal'c had his symbiote's mind and personality.
I would assume that they just cloned the Goa'uld Ba'al's mind (along with the inherent genetic memory) and planted it in the empty body of his host, as opposed to cloning the host and the Goa'uld separately, and then implanting each cloned host with a Ba'al Goa'uld.
I'm not sure about the glowing eyes bit though. I would assume that only happens if you have a Goa'uld in you, but whatever.

Giantevilhead
August 28th, 2005, 03:10 PM
If they're all perfect clones of Baal, they would all be power hungry and would eventually turn on each other, I think that the original Baal was smart enough to make the clones follow him unquestioningly.

binkpmmc
August 28th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Traveler Enroute1: (My ability to respond using the Quote is not working so I cannot quote your post). Many moons ago I used the term shared command and some agreed and I explained that what I meant by that was that Landry will designate who leads which mission so while they are on any mission it is absolutely clear who is in charge. Carter leads some, Mitchell leads some.

In experience, knowledge, common sense, logic, etc., etc., Carter SHOULD lead after 7 years as 2IC (and leader when appropriate during those 7 years) and 1 year as leader to the elite team but, for the sake of having a "male lead", they have to do something with BB and as others have said, if he does not have some sort of leadership thing to grab on to then he brings zip to the party, IMO, since the team of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c has pretty much all that is needed to be SG1.

All I am saying is that, thus far, as far as I can see, Mitchell brings absolutely nothing to the team that makes SG1 any better than it was and, for me, he fills no real role such as diplomat, soldier, leader, scientist, warrior, etc., etc., because between Sam, Daniel and Teal'c they already have all of those things.

DarkQuee1
August 28th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Sam's 'Not exactly'. Very nice touch. Vague enough to suit everyone, doesn't tie anything down, yet is enough to get the shippers' minds burning overtime with the possibilities. ). Must admit I had begun to nod off in my seat until that point, at which time my shipper radar pricked up and went 'hel-lo'.


Considering not only "Threads", but also the following Q&A with JM (from a Q&A thread here on GW) makes things a lot more definite:

"Question 1: On behalf of the Sam/Jack shippers (wait, please keep
reading! It's not that bad! ), will S9 provide any intentional hints
as to the status of their relationship? I say "intentional" because we
S/J shippers have the uncanny (annoying?) ability to find "ship" in
almost anything.

- Maybe. Check out Ex Deux Machina."

So..S/J shippers, go ahead and break out the bubbly! <<g>>


I agree with the posters who don't think that TPTB will ever really deal with the command issue--it has possibilities for real dramatic tension and even blowups down the road. (Heck, I'm still waiting for them to deal with the fact that Daniel screwed up and opened the galaxy to the Orii [not to mention, getting two people burned to death]. TPTB don't seem to really care about consequences.)

So far, despite all the buildup--some of it unbelievable. I have yet to figure out why Mitchell got the MoH for doing nothing more than his job--Mitchell has been pretty much of a cute nonentity.

I'm always glad to see Ba'al, but IMO, the most important thing would be to resolve the history between Jack and Ba'al, which clearly ain't ever going to happen!!

CueBa'al
August 28th, 2005, 04:47 PM
I have to admit, seeing a roomful of Ba'als was a rare comedic treat. That and Jaffa storming an office building made it a really comical episode for me. Good stuff. Wonder if SG-1 can convince the Ba'als to turn on one another

Traveler Enroute1
August 28th, 2005, 04:53 PM
Traveler Enroute1: (My ability to respond using the Quote is not working so I cannot quote your post). Many moons ago I used the term shared command and some agreed and I explained that what I meant by that was that Landry will designate who leads which mission so while they are on any mission it is absolutely clear who is in charge. Carter leads some, Mitchell leads some.

In experience, knowledge, common sense, logic, etc., etc., Carter SHOULD lead after 7 years as 2IC (and leader when appropriate during those 7 years) and 1 year as leader to the elite team but, for the sake of having a "male lead", they have to do something with BB and as others have said, if he does not have some sort of leadership thing to grab on to then he brings zip to the party, IMO, since the team of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c has pretty much all that is needed to be SG1.

All I am saying is that, thus far, as far as I can see, Mitchell brings absolutely nothing to the team that makes SG1 any better than it was and, for me, he fills no real role such as diplomat, soldier, leader, scientist, warrior, etc., etc., because between Sam, Daniel and Teal'c they already have all of those things.

binkpmmc: Just to clarify, I AGREE WITH YOU. I was just putting out my experience with a similar thought when I posted it on another thread. Carter has all the qualifications necessary to be team leader. I'm so aware that the need for a male lead (to replace Richard Dean Anderson/O'Neill) is at play here. I'm just hoping that the coming episodes will solidify Mitchell's qualities that placed him above Carter for command.

However, I think Mitchell is a character in progress, and so far I like him. He's smart without being, well, Jack. He has a check mark in my book for at least being able or willing to hear and understand Carter, and even come up with a solution. OK, a far-fetched solution but what the hey. If TPTB don't find a way to make him work for his presence, they risk the series itself. I often wonder that with RDA's leaving, if they plan to end the series this year anyway. Hope not. :S

Just sayin'.

ShimmeringStar
August 28th, 2005, 04:54 PM
Remember that in Tin Man, the first robot made from Teal'c had his symbiote's mind and personality.
I would assume that they just cloned the Goa'uld Ba'al's mind (along with the inherent genetic memory) and planted it in the empty body of his host, as opposed to cloning the host and the Goa'uld separately, and then implanting each cloned host with a Ba'al Goa'uld.
I'm not sure about the glowing eyes bit though. I would assume that only happens if you have a Goa'uld in you, but whatever.And in Tin Man it had disastrous consequences for the Teal'c clone since the two minds couldn't exist in one body. Memory of the host I don't have issue with... most of the cloners -whether they've been Asgard or others - have ways of "saving/storing" the human clonee's memories in a database or other storage device until its time to place it in the cloned body.

What I was just wondering/trying to remember was if there'd ever been a storyline that included cloned symbiotes in the past 8 seasons. (vs. cloned humans) I do remember 2 times when different groups forced Goa'uld Queens to birth larval symbiotes against their will - S6 "Cure" where and most recently in S7 "Evolution 1&2," and those queens made sure their symbiote offspring were unstable and that they didn't pass on the genetic knowledge, but I couldn't think of a time when anyone had tried cloning a symbiote.

The glowy eyes indicating the symbiote is the 'whatever' that interested me because any of the characters who can 'sense' a Goa'uld's presence would know right off the bat that they're not dealing with the real Ba'al if B. didn't find a way to successfully clone his symbiote. It wouldn't be enough to clone his symbiote's mind for implantation to the human host - those glowy eyes and the symbiote's presence to send tingles up his enemy's spine would have to be there for the characters to completly buy into that they were dealing with the 'real' Ba'al...

Amakusa
August 28th, 2005, 04:59 PM
I have yet to figure out why Mitchell got the MoH for doing nothing more than his job--Mitchell has been pretty much of a cute nonentity.


Cheap shot, considering I can't think of any career military who had to go out of their way (jump through the ring of fire while everyone is shooting at him/her while carrying a baby-like) to get medals. They do their job, yes, but they also do the right thing at the right time and still get a big fat 'Mission Accomplished' on their record.

I quote: (excerpt from http://www.medalofhonor.com/recipients/airforce.html)

" The Medal of Honor is awarded for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of one's life, above and beyond the call of duty. This gallantry must be performed either while engaged in action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or, while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

For award of the Medal of Honor there must be no margin of doubt or any possibility of error. To justify the award, a person must clearly render himself conspicuously above his comrades by an act so outstanding that it clearly distinguishes his gallantry as being beyond the call of duty. It must be the type of action which if not done would not leave him open to criticism, but must be done without detriment to his mission or to the command to which he is attached. Further, the recommendation must be submitted within three years of the act, and the medal must be awarded within five years of the act (there have, however, been exceptions to the rules governing the timing of recommendations and awarding the Medal of Honor)."

The mission: Defend the cargo ship/outpost in Antarctica until SG-1 comes up with a more permanent solution (?)
The enemy: Anubis
The allies: US Air Force Prometheus and fighter complement, unknown weaponry in outpost

What happened: Mitchell shot down the craft making an attack run on the cargo ship while the (mission-critical) crew was still inside.

Maybe it was his job, but he did it. He also got shot down because of it (although I freely admit I don't remember if him getting shot down was a consequence of going to save SG-1's ship).


Does that sound like it's not deserving of a Medal of Honor? Did blowing-up two Motherships in Earth's orbit deserve a Medal? Did you know some good (real-life) officers had to die to get their Medal?

Auralis
August 28th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Honestly, i think the Jaffa don't know anything at all about DNA tests or even DNA.

Sprinkles
August 28th, 2005, 05:06 PM
If the Jaffa council does an autopsy of Baal, which they probably won't, they'll find that there's no naquadah in the symbiote's blood and realize that it's not the real Baal. If they capture any more Baals, they could keep him imprisoned for a week to see if it goes through sarcophagus withdraw, if he doesn't then it's not the real Baal.

I can't remember, when dose it mention that the clones don't have Naquada in their bodies? (why wouldn't the Naquada be duplicated too?)

RalCaladan
August 28th, 2005, 05:18 PM
I thought Gou'ald were immune to sarcophagus withdrawl because they were Gou'ald, and thus their immune systems were superior.

Giantevilhead
August 28th, 2005, 05:48 PM
Apophis went through sarcophagus withdraw when SG1 captured him. At the very least Baal's host would go through sarcophagus withdraw since the symbiote can only naturally sustain a host for 200 years.

Terracide
August 28th, 2005, 05:50 PM
Weakest episode of the season so far, reminds me why I stopped watching last season.

gater
August 28th, 2005, 07:28 PM
This episode was fairly good & I liked the twist at the end w/the multiple Baals!
However,regarding the title,the correct phrase(in latin)is:"Deus Ex Machina".
What am I missing here?

gater
August 28th, 2005, 07:40 PM
This episode was fairly good & I liked the twist at the end w/the multiple Baals!
However,regarding the title,the correct phrase(in latin)is:"Deus Ex Machina".
What am I missing here?

jckfan55
August 28th, 2005, 08:04 PM
Well, here's a handy one, right here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina)... and funnily enough, it agrees with my take on it.



I'm not really wading into the definition battle as my lit. class that covered this device of Greek playwrights was many moons ago. (My understanding was that deus ex machina referred to a situation where the playwright had developed a situation that, to put it technically, was a doozy for the characters :) but then a god or gods appeared & wrapped things up for them. )
But the point I meant to make was that people might want to avoid using wikipedia as a source. My understanding is that it is notoriously unreliable since you have no idea how credible the people posting on it are.

JanusAncient
August 28th, 2005, 08:07 PM
I don't believe that Ba'al was actually cloned, I am talking about the symbiote. The real Ba'al more than likely only cloned the body, and gave each one his memories and knowledge, the real Ba'al most likely isn't even on Earth, the clone was probably using a device like Vala, to create the voice effect so that the Jaffa would believe it was him. Ba'al has Asgard beaming technology, if that was the real Ba'al, he would have beamed out, instead of allowing himself to be captured.

Schrodinger82
August 28th, 2005, 08:32 PM
I'm not really wading into the definition battle as my lit. class that covered this device of Greek playwrights was many moons ago. (My understanding was that deus ex machina referred to a situation where the playwright had developed a situation that, to put it technically, was a doozy for the characters :) but then a god or gods appeared & wrapped things up for them. )

That just about sums it up exactly, Jckfan. The situation is too much of a "doozy" for the characters to handle on their own, so they need someone else to handle it for them.

The main thing to remember about Deus Ex Machina is that it can only be judged within the context of storytelling. Usually, a story will consist of a hero you identify with in some sort of trial and tribulation. When the hero overcomes this trial, you as an audience member feel good about it, because his triumph becomes your triumph. We feel inspired to overcome our own limitations, and battle the obstacles in our own life.

The reason "deus ex machina" is considered contrived isn't before the resolution wasn't "pre-established" or any other of the things that Forman listed. Rather, it's contrived because the problem is solved by someone who you are unable to identify with. This leaves the audience feeling helpless and powerless, unable to solve their problems without outside intervention. A character might have the problem resolved by sheer luck alone, but we as an audience cannot be "inspired" to "be lucky." Hence, the advice from such a story is essentially worthless.

There are some occasions when the Deus Ex Machina can be used to compliment the story, however. For instance, in "Lord of the Flies," it's to show tht there is no way to overcome our own darkside. The only answer is to submit to government, and trust them to keep everyone in line. It's not a happy resolution, but it does make for biting commentary.

IMForeman
August 28th, 2005, 09:26 PM
I'm not really wading into the definition battle as my lit. class that covered this device of Greek playwrights was many moons ago. (My understanding was that deus ex machina referred to a situation where the playwright had developed a situation that, to put it technically, was a doozy for the characters :) but then a god or gods appeared & wrapped things up for them. )

That is an accurate description of what a Deus Ex Machina was when it was introduced as a technique, and it still is an accurate description of part of how the modern version works as well. The modern version is a wee bit broader than Schrodinger is allowing for in his definition, though. In the modern sense, a Deus Ex Machina is when a situation is placed before our characters that is essentially a doozy, and it is resolved through an artificial means that drops in out of nowhere as if from on high.

I'll adumbrate:

Doozy situation: We have a hero who is on the run from rogue CIA agents, and he wants to expose them, and stop their Evil Plot(TM). He runs from them, makes plans to expose them, and he fails. Near the end his is alone, and surrounded by these evil men, with guns all pointed at him.

Resolutions:

1.)Superman drops in out of nowhere, protects our hero from the hail of bullets, disarms the villains with his heat vision, trusses them all up, then takes them to the head of the CIA and exposes them. This is a Deus Ex Machina anyway you look at it. Superman's sudden arrival comes out of nowhere, and he might as well just be God decending from on high to resolve the plot.
2.)The Agents fire at our hero, but the bullets bounce off him. He glows with power and defeats them all with his newfound superpowers. This is also a Deus Ex Machina. Even though our hero resolves the plot, he only did so with seemingly devine help that had nothing to do with the narrative to this point.
3.)The hero pulls a cellphone out of his pocket and looks at it, then says “of course!” He pushes some buttons, and the agents all convulse and die. When the real authorities show up, he says that the agents had a built in kill device that the CIA implants in their operatives in case they go rogue, and he configured his cellphone to emit the signal. This one is also technically a Deus Ex Machina. The killswitches came out of nowhere, his cellphone activation of the killswitches could have happened at any time in the story, and it just pops up out of nowhere. Now, I feel this one is a Deus Ex Machina, but it could very well be debated.

Now, I would like the opportunity to mend some fences here. If it's acceptable, I would like to extend an apology to Schrodinger82 for the way this debate got out of hand. I took exception to what I perceived as attitude being sent my way, and I reacted with attitude back. I still feel I was given more than I gave, but I know I am not blameless in this. So, if an apology will do, I offer it. What say you?


But the point I meant to make was that people might want to avoid using wikipedia as a source. My understanding is that it is notoriously unreliable since you have no idea how credible the people posting on it are.

Wikipedia is a bit of a Curate's Egg, I know. In some places, it's heartily accurate, and in others it has some fearsome inaccuracies, but I feel that on the whole it's more accurate than not. It's usually best to check multiple sources on any topic at any rate, but I think Wikipedia is a very useful resource most of the time. Where else will you find a single reference work that you can find information from Quantum physics, to the fall of Rome, to Optimus Prime... it's just a fabulous idea. It just has a flaw in how often and thorough the fact checking gets done.

-IMF

CueBa'al
August 28th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Ba'al could make a fortune and never lift a finger. All he has to do is send his clones to get a job and work while he sits around and enjoys what society has to offer. I wonder if he has an alias, or if all his human underlings know him as Ba'al, likening his one word name to certain celebrities who choose to do the same; and thus seeing nothing unusual. Maybe Carter can use Asgard technology to adapt the Thor's hammer device to detect and beam away Ba'al(s). Put it on the Prometheus and call it the Ba'al Buster...nyuk nyuk :rolleyes:

Dave Thomer
August 28th, 2005, 10:06 PM
Ba'al could make a fortune and never lift a finger. All he has to do is send his clones to get a job and work while he sits around and enjoys what society has to offer.
Both Calvin and Michael Keaton have tried this, and it hasn't gone swimmingly. :)

MCL
August 28th, 2005, 11:18 PM
It will be interesting to see how Ba'al clones cope with each other and their ego problems! Thinking of yourself as a god doesn't usually lend itself to sharing the position even if it is with another you.

I have thought it would have made more sense for Ba'al to let one of the clones be killed and taken by the SG before the Jaffa caught him. That way SG would have stopped looking for him before they found out the cloning secrets and would have handed the dead clones body over to the Jaffa which would stop them looking to. No need to build a honkin big building bomb and takes everyones attention away from your real plans.

I thought Ba'al sounded like a Kiwi (New Zealand) when using his human voice.

Great epsiode, now just a long wait until next week.

MCL

epiphany
August 28th, 2005, 11:45 PM
The actor who plays Ba'al is from South Africa I believe. I enjoyed his accent, it had an interesting sound to it.

Shep'sSocks
August 29th, 2005, 12:08 AM
As an episode it was strange.... I really don't like Gerak and can't understand how the Jaffa turned their backs on Teal'c and Bratak and allowed somebody as Gerak to be their leader....

Maybe they're the Jaffa version of the British public after WWII who first election they could voted Churchill out of office. I think that happened in a few countries.

MCL
August 29th, 2005, 12:14 AM
I have certainly enjoyed all of Ba'als episodes!

"Great work on Stargate he does" in the words of Yoda.

KatG
August 29th, 2005, 02:32 AM
What I was just wondering/trying to remember was if there'd ever been a storyline that included cloned symbiotes in the past 8 seasons. (vs. cloned humans) of a time when anyone had tried cloning a symbiote.

The glowy eyes indicating the symbiote is the 'whatever' that interested me because any of the characters who can 'sense' a Goa'uld's presence would know right off the bat that they're not dealing with the real Ba'al if B. didn't find a way to successfully clone his symbiote. It wouldn't be enough to clone his symbiote's mind for implantation to the human host - those glowy eyes and the symbiote's presence to send tingles up his enemy's spine would have to be there for the characters to completly buy into that they were dealing with the 'real' Ba'al...

In Nightwalkers the NID was allowing experiments on symbiotes. The symbiotes were immature and could only take over at night when the hosts were sleeping. They also had no naquadah. I'm not sure if that was a result of the cloning or if it was because the original symbiote was one of the original ones with no naquadah.

QuiGonJohn
August 29th, 2005, 04:46 AM
So does each clone of Ba'al also have a cloned symbiote?

I thought the girl he was with was also a Goa'uld, she said something about "the humans".

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 29th, 2005, 07:44 AM
So does each clone of Ba'al also have a cloned symbiote?

I thought the girl he was with was also a Goa'uld, she said something about "the humans".

The woman is too deeply into the loop to be a mere human. She has to be a Goa'uld.

About the clones/symbiotes: First off, the Asgard are the undeniable masters at cloning and they are only able to make short-lived clones (Fragile Balance). I don't expect that the Ba'al clones are very long-lived, either, which is handy form Ba'al's perspective.

I imagine that a lot of symbiotes - perhaps even a queen - came to Earth on that captured Trust/Osiris ship. I wouldn't be surprised if the clones were only human and had a symbiote implanted into them.

However - and I've always felt this should be the case - the queens likely gave the symbiotes only limited memories/ambitions so that they could be more easily controlled/brainwashed by their true masters - in this case, Ba'al.

We've seen evidence that queens can do this in The Cure and in that ep where we see the Kull homeworld.

DarkQuee1
August 29th, 2005, 08:21 AM
No, of course you don't have to die to win the MoH, but you said it yourself:


...above and beyond the call of duty. This gallantry must be performed either while engaged in action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or, while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

To win the Medal, you have to do something *beyond* what your mission entails. And the mission of those pilots was to protect SG-1 at all costs, including their lives. That's what Mitchell did--but that's *all* that he did. Along with a bunch of other pilots, some of whom *did* die in the encounter. He deserved a purple heart for his injury, but unless all of the other pilots--not to mention the crew of the Prometheus who were ready to ram Anubis' ship--also got the MoH, then he did *not* deserve it. (Which may be why the character does not display the ribbon on his uniform, as he is supposed to: because the AF wasn't really happy about it.)

Certainly, if Jack and Sam (the only two military members of the team) have not earned that Medal in eight years of doing way beyond their duty and mission requirements in many situation, then Mitchell did not deserve it for doing his job--however risky that job might have been.

ChillinTheMost
August 29th, 2005, 08:51 AM
I couldn't find it, but I went back through the beginning of this thread 3 times trying to find the post so I can give credit to whoever proposed this idea: The "real" Ba'al might be in the blonde woman and not one of the clones.

I love this idea. I have no idea if it's right or even possible [in the Stargate world], but it would be perfect. Everyone is hunting down the Ba'al-look-a-likes, while the Ba'al go'auld is in the woman! And it's great because she can be in the thick of things [meeting with Carter] without anyone knowing. [Someone said Carter would have known, but someone else pointed out a case where they can "cloak" it, so that's a wash.] Great idea!

cafine_us
August 29th, 2005, 08:54 AM
So does each clone of Ba'al also have a cloned symbiote?

I thought the girl he was with was also a Goa'uld, she said something about "the humans".

If the woman was a Goa'uld too, wouldn't Sam have sensed it when they were together in the office? On that note, why didn't Sam sense the naquadah in the building/bomb? Does that benefit of Jolinar only work in people?

ChillinTheMost
August 29th, 2005, 08:54 AM
"So, you're single now."
"Not exactly."

It's sooooooooooo obvious, people!

All of a sudden, Sam isn't single. All of a sudden, a new guy is around; one that Sam seems quite familiar with.

Yep, Sam and Mitchell are sharing that hot monkey love!!! It's soooooo obvious!


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Just kidding.

the dancer of spaz
August 29th, 2005, 09:02 AM
"So, you're single now."
"Not exactly."

It's sooooooooooo obvious, people!

All of a sudden, Sam isn't single. All of a sudden, a new guy is around; one that Sam seems quite familiar with.

Yep, Sam and Mitchell are sharing that hot monkey love!!! It's soooooo obvious!


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Just kidding.

Oh, holy buckets! :P

Bite your tongue!

the dancer of spaz
August 29th, 2005, 09:11 AM
If the woman was a Goa'uld too, wouldn't Sam have sensed it when they were together in the office? On that note, why didn't Sam sense the naquadah in the building/bomb? Does that benefit of Jolinar only work in people?

Well, if the whole baby symbiote theory is true, Sam (nor any other past Go'auld/Tokra or Jaffa) wouldn't be able to sense it, right? They didn't sense the Goa'ulds in the Nightwalkers townspeople, did they? *goes to check*

Plus, I thought that the naquadah deal only worked in people. Maybe I'm wrong. If so, can you imagine if she and Teal'c could sense it on a regular basis? They'd get the spidey-sense every time they walked by a Stargate or a naquadah generator, FCOL. :D That would suck.

Daniel's_twin
August 29th, 2005, 09:25 AM
Sheesh, so far this season only one episode thus far has ranked anything under outstanding. And this isn't the one. The way that they played out the whole Baal thing was very good. This was also the very first episode where we got to see his eyes glow. Must say though, I wish they would go back to the more white-ish glow then the yellow one.

I wonder how much power was required to actually beam the entire building off the surface of the planet. It certainly was a radical idea on Mitchell's part.

I can't wait to see how they follow up on this ep. Man, four Baal's in the last scene. Any one of 'em could be the real one, or none of them could be and the real one could be far, far away. :cool:

cafine_us
August 29th, 2005, 09:38 AM
Well, if the whole baby symbiote theory is true, Sam (nor any other past Go'auld/Tokra or Jaffa) wouldn't be able to sense it, right? They didn't sense the Goa'ulds in the Nightwalkers townspeople, did they? *goes to check*

Plus, I thought that the naquadah deal only worked in people. Maybe I'm wrong. If so, can you imagine if she and Teal'c could sense it on a regular basis? They'd get the spidey-sense every time they walked by a Stargate or a naquadah generator, FCOL. :D That would suck.
Couldn't Hathor sense the presence of the gate somehow? She said she was "drawn" to it. OTOH, naquadah rules have changed over the years. Teal'c can now sense a Goa'uld, though he couldn't back in the earlier seasons.

the dancer of spaz
August 29th, 2005, 11:22 AM
Couldn't Hathor sense the presence of the gate somehow? She said she was "drawn" to it. OTOH, naquadah rules have changed over the years. Teal'c can now sense a Goa'uld, though he couldn't back in the earlier seasons.

Hmmm... Interesting. Hathor WAS drawn to the Stargate, huh! Well, maybe her sensitivity to it far exceeds that of Sam's and Teal'c's? Maybe it goes down the line of: Goa'uld/Tokra host, former Goa'uld/Tokra host, Jaffa, or some variation of the three. I thought Teal'c started sensing Goa'ulds around Season Three's "First Ones." I'll have to go see...

Plus, Sam's ability to sense the Goa'uld (though I hope this isn't the case) may have started going away with time. It's been several years since Jolinar, but hasn't she been snaked twice, counting the time in Nightwalkers? Maybe that time didn't count... Teal'c no longer has Junior.

I'd still like to think that Teal'c and Sam still have those abilities - even if no one talks about them anymore. :)

PugGate
August 29th, 2005, 02:13 PM
I can't remember, when does it mention that the clones don't have Naquada in their bodies? (why wouldn't the Naquada be duplicated too?)

I think cloning is supposed to only duplicate organic matter, not heavy metals.

zats
August 29th, 2005, 02:17 PM
[snippitied]

I give this ep four out of five zats.

http://www.powerpromoz.com/stargate/zatrating.jpghttp://www.powerpromoz.com/stargate/zatrating.jpghttp://www.powerpromoz.com/stargate/zatrating.jpghttp://www.powerpromoz.com/stargate/zatrating.jpg
I like your rating system!

PugGate
August 29th, 2005, 02:31 PM
I wonder if any security cameras on nearby buildings caught the building being beamed up into space?

I kinda like how TPTB still include the Goa'uld instead of just saying 'they're mostly dead, so we'll ignore them. I think it really sucks when TV shows totally ignore the enemy from the first couple seasons.

I'm wondering if Sam can't sense naquada anymore because the level of naquada in her blood has dissipated over the years. :)

AGateFan
August 29th, 2005, 02:34 PM
"So, you're single now."
"Not exactly."

It's sooooooooooo obvious, people!

All of a sudden, Sam isn't single. All of a sudden, a new guy is around; one that Sam seems quite familiar with.

Yep, Sam and Mitchell are sharing that hot monkey love!!! It's soooooo obvious!


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Just kidding.
There cousins.....that was someone else’s idea on the board... but I like it and I’m going with it.... Or maybe Sam tutored him in physics at the academy.... anything, anything but more ship.... just say no to Sam ship. Her ship has sailed. Now its time for her to start kickin the crp out of everyone like they were the writers that wrote the ship.

Yes!! Now I am all for bringing Vala back as a full time character so that TPTB can give her and Daniel all the crpyly written ship... of course then that would just diminish the Daniel character like it has with the Sam character, which would be sad. And then theres Vala poor, poor Vala she would be worse off then being stuck in the Ori galaxy where she probably has gotten herself a nice, writer free, ship.

And no I am not anti-ship. If the ship is well written and makes since and doesn’t dimish a character then I can deal and even enjoy (B5). But as far as I can see this show is not setup for such a thing, being episodic and all. If ship is done right then its ok, if its done poorly then it is just a soap opera and I like my space adventures Soap free…… well Ronan could use a little soap….but that’s different (and yes I am a Ronan Fan)

greytop
August 29th, 2005, 03:06 PM
If the woman was a Goa'uld too, wouldn't Sam have sensed it when they were together in the office?In S7's Fallout, I believe the Goa'uld that Ba'al leeft behind on Langara took something that hid its presence from humans and Sam did not detect her until they found the needle. They could have use this because they knew Sam could detect them.

mindfire
August 29th, 2005, 04:57 PM
I wonder if any security cameras on nearby buildings caught the building being beamed up into space?


I wondered the same thing

jyh
August 29th, 2005, 06:11 PM
I wonder if any security cameras on nearby buildings caught the building being beamed up into space?


Yeah, I had a major problem with the building-beaming-up thing. Even if the area had been evacuated (officially) you know there would have been TV cameras, security cameras, etc. Not to mention the security people who were working the evacuation.

I don't object to earth-based episodes in principle, as I'm sure there can be compelling stories told here. But I think they tend to be less well written than offworld eps. I think the team functions best when they have to rely on each other implicitly, such as when they're the only 'earthlings' on another planet. In earth-based episodes, there are so many other SGC personnel and even civilians involved, and that takes away from the activity of the "team," imho.

binkpmmc
August 29th, 2005, 06:22 PM
I don't object to earth-based episodes in principle, as I'm sure there can be compelling stories told here. But I think they tend to be less well written than offworld eps. I think the team functions best when they have to rely on each other implicitly, such as when they're the only 'earthlings' on another planet. In earth-based episodes, there are so many other SGC personnel and even civilians involved, and that takes away from the activity of the "team," imho.

Excellent point.

davsoft
August 29th, 2005, 06:33 PM
To all the people not believing the building beaming up thing, I think that's the whole point. With all the stuff that's been going on over the past couple of years the cover story is falling apart. Now the mainstream media news has realised that there's a cover up on. This is something they just can't hide, people are going to talk, and tell that the military were there, not just fire and police services. The scout ship was probably spotted on the roof of the building. Jaffa with staff weapons running around.... People will start talking to the media about the bizarre things that have been happening, then more people will come out and talk, they might even start to wonder about the whole Alec Colson affair. I think this whole thing is building towards the revelation of the stargate program. Thanks,

David

ann_sgcfan
August 29th, 2005, 06:34 PM
I really like this episode! My favorite part of course was Sam’s “Not exactly” comment. Does my shipper heart some good! It also acknowledges Jack’s presences (didn’t I say I was a shipper. :p) in S9 which I am also happy about (because I miss RDA)!

Sam is officially back!! I was also very glad Sam gave a reason for her absence. She explained she was helping Cassie. Yet another character that has vanished, so I was glad she was mentioned! Sam and Teal’c both played a bigger role in this episode then last week, which was great!

Teal’c had more of a presence then any episode this season. Gerak is a character you love to hate, or at least I do. I can see Teal’c and Gerak squaring off in future episodes, and I look forward to it!

As far as the multiple Baal’s at the end I’m not sure about this … The Goa’uld have always tried to conquer other planets, civilizations, and other system lords. Their thirst for power has always pitted them against one another, so wouldn’t that be the same case for all the clones? Who would be the ultimate decision maker? Wouldn’t they be fighting amongst themselves for control of the group?

Shep'sSocks
August 29th, 2005, 07:32 PM
My least favourite part of the episode was the "Not exactly" moment. As a total non-shipper, I wish to god they'd leave the damn subject alone. In fact, I wish Sam had stayed at Area 51 so we'd never hear about her witless love life ever again. The more it's about her, the less relevant she becomes as a character.

warmbeachbrat
August 29th, 2005, 07:46 PM
I wonder about things (it comes from having a flighty mind, I guess), like--

What do you suppose the tv-remote Ba'al clone meant when he said they had a big day tomorrow?

What's the deal with a bunch of Ba'al clones on earth? Why aren't they spread around the galaxy (hmmm--maybe they are)? What do they want from earth anyway? Does Ba'al not have any firepower anymore and that's why he's trying to gain power by going the business tycoon route, or does he have some fiendishly devious plan for our poor little planet?

Did you notice that even the Ba'al clone that Gerak killed didn't act cowed or scared, but knowing (he HAD to know) that he was going to be killed, he still had to lord it over the jaffa ("slaves!")?

How are they going to hide the fact that there are four or five Ba'al business tycoon clones running around? He's gotta know that SG-1 is keeping their eyes open.

Is Chinese food Ba'als favorite earth food?

What about the drink-pouring Ba'al? Doesn't alcohol have some sort of weird effect on symbiotes? I seem to remember Tea'lc commenting on it--although I could be wrong, my memory is not what it used to be.

Is Ba'al on earth an NID-related thing?

EDIT: Thought of another one! What do you suppose Jack's reaction is to Ba'al on earth (numerous ones!)? Not too happy, I expect! Wouldn't that be an interesting meeting?


----inquiring minds want to know!

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 29th, 2005, 07:49 PM
About Sam and naquadah: She has never once said that she sensed the mineral itself as it lay about the surface of the land. She only senses it in living creatures, which seems to indicate that it is not just naquadah per se, but the mineral combined with a creature's life force or something that she senses.

The Goa'uld have an effective serum to block people from sensing their presence as witnessed by the fact that Jolinar couldn't sense the Ashrack lying in the hospital bed in Line of Duty and Sam couldn't sense the Goa'uld on Kelowna. Obviously Ba'al would have taken the precaution to mask his people's presense on Earth, since he knew there'd be a good chance not only of dealing with Sam and Teal'c but that Earth had naq sensors.

Xanderic
August 29th, 2005, 08:43 PM
A building that tall, and no one notices it's missing? And the surrounding stuff are still intact so it couldn't have exploded on Earth although it did on Earth's orbit. Anyways, no one really noticed I guess because a 5 mile radius was evacuated according to Carter.

Shep'sSocks
August 29th, 2005, 09:22 PM
Five miles isn't that far, though.

Liam Kincaid
August 29th, 2005, 10:57 PM
Ex Deus Machina Spoiler






I know that the technology exists to clone humans and the technology exists to clone symbiotes, but how can they clone both together? Aren't a symbiote and it's host two seperate organisms? So how can those clones all be Ba'al? In the last scene, they are sure acting like they are all him, but how would cloning the host clone the symbiote? If the symbiote altered the hosts DNA enough for that to happen then it wouldn't be as easy to remove a symbiote as it is. I know its not easy to remove one, but its easier that it would be if the symbiote was part of the hosts new DNA. If the Gould part of Ba'al was cloned by itself, why would he want all of his hosts to look alike? Wouldn't he want many different hosts? If the "Ba'al" that Gerak captured and killed was only a human, and had no symbiote, wouldn't Gerak be able to tell ? Unless maybe he was in on the gag. In other words, maybe Gearak knows thats not the real Ba'al and is working together with him? Or maybe it was a clone of Ba'al's host with somebody else's symbiote in it?

jree
August 29th, 2005, 11:33 PM
I wonder about things (it comes from having a flighty mind, I guess), like--

What do you suppose the tv-remote Ba'al clone meant when he said they had a big day tomorrow?

What's the deal with a bunch of Ba'al clones on earth? Why aren't they spread around the galaxy (hmmm--maybe they are)? What do they want from earth anyway? Does Ba'al not have any firepower anymore and that's why he's trying to gain power by going the business tycoon route, or does he have some fiendishly devious plan for our poor little planet?




Just guessing here but maybe Ba'al has found out about Atlantis and the only way to get more information and maybe steal technology that comes from Atlantis would mean he has to be on Earth. To infiltrate the companies that will have access to Atlantis tech they need Goa'uld/Trust people in the right places so this episode might be part of the set up for the crossover eps, imho. Then again I might be wrong.

nodrog
August 30th, 2005, 12:50 AM
Just guessing here but maybe Ba'al has found out about Atlantis and the only way to get more information and maybe steal technology that comes from Atlantis would mean he has to be on Earth. To infiltrate the companies that will have access to Atlantis tech they need Goa'uld/Trust people in the right places so this episode might be part of the set up for the crossover eps, imho. Then again I might be wrong.

Oh to find out about Atlantis would be sweet for a Gou'ald come back ahah.



Overall I loved this episode and this season rocks! I think Baal's normal voice sounds pretty cool almost as cool as the gou'ald one.

Tok'Ra Hostess
August 30th, 2005, 03:38 AM
A building that tall, and no one notices it's missing? And the surrounding stuff are still intact so it couldn't have exploded on Earth although it did on Earth's orbit. Anyways, no one really noticed I guess because a 5 mile radius was evacuated according to Carter.

Sam said they'd evacuated five blocks, but that it wasn't enough, She then said that even five miles wouldn't be enough.

And yes, cameras mounted on buildings as far away a five or six blocks would have caught something. It would have been nice if Sam or Cam or Pendergast had thrown in a line about hitting the area with an EM disruptor - or whatever the heck the jargen - to disrupt any recording devices in the area surrounding the site.

davsoft
August 30th, 2005, 04:03 AM
Sam said they'd evacuated five blocks, but that it wasn't enough, She then said that even five miles wouldn't be enough.

And yes, cameras mounted on buildings as far away a five or six blocks would have caught something. It would have been nice if Sam or Cam or Pendergast had thrown in a line about hitting the area with an EM disruptor - or whatever the heck the jargen - to disrupt any recording devices in the area surrounding the site.
I think you guys are definately all missing the point. There *is no way* they could cover it up completely. This could be the turning point moving towards disclosure. Thanks,

David

Hans22
August 30th, 2005, 05:15 AM
My favourite episode of this season so far, really good :)

ChillinTheMost
August 30th, 2005, 05:26 AM
I think you guys are definately all missing the point. There *is no way* they could cover it up completely. This could be the turning point moving towards disclosure. Thanks,
David

I think you're right. It sounds realistic, anyway. This all happened at the end of the episode and it was at the very end that the reporter said that it was purported to be a gas leak. She also said that some people didn't believe it because there wasn't enough rubble. They definitely left it open for more public speculation.

I can believe that there wasn't anything to report that quickly other than what was told. If someone had seen something, either they hadn't told the right people [like the news station] or they are trying to get someone to listen to them. They could be waiting for that $500 from the Inquirer. As for security cameras, sure, a few could have caught something, but it's possible it's just a corner of the building and they don't know what they have yet.

I don't know how soon after the beaming-away that the news report happened, but I would think it would be quite soon after. In that case, nobody has had a chance to put together the bits from security cameras, the whatever-was-caught on someones private video recorders, and eyewitness reports of whatever someone thought they may have seen.

I would think, and hope, that the SGC hasn't seen the full effect of what they did [not that they had a choice].

Lida
August 30th, 2005, 05:50 AM
I think you guys are definately all missing the point. There *is no way* they could cover it up completely. This could be the turning point moving towards disclosure. Thanks,

David

David, if this government wants something "covered up", trust me, you'll never even hear a peep about it. As for survelliance cameras, come on.....you have any idea how quickly video vanishes, etc. And if someone does start to "talk".....you have any idea how easy it is to discredit someone, when you have the power? Far too easy.

And if this were, by some chance, the turning point towards "disclosure", what then? Really, will it affect the storyline? Will it signal the end of the series? I'd like some feedback, because I truly have no idea what disclosure would do to the series/stories.

Kelt'ar
August 30th, 2005, 06:26 AM
Ok. My Question is: Did Baal Clone himself (host + symbiote) of did he clone only the host? I think it would be wise and likely, that he cloned the host and put other symbiotes in the clones, so that they will not try to challenge him for power. I mean as the goauld have genetic memory, they will practically all be Baal and will all want to be the boss. Tell me what you thind. And by the way, here is another picture:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2707/universecup20092gd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Sabre
August 30th, 2005, 06:35 AM
Nice picture, but "Orilla" is obviously on off side position :)

About the cloning idea, I have many doubts myself but I'll wait how the writers develope the whole idea

Sabre

Qasim
August 30th, 2005, 06:47 AM
Quite obviously

I think he only cloned the host

mindfire
August 30th, 2005, 06:53 AM
This was a good episode, and I like the vary end when ba'al said over 600 channels and nothing to watch. I'm also thinking that he was the real one and not a clone.

ann_sgcfan
August 30th, 2005, 06:54 AM
I think you guys are definately all missing the point. There *is no way* they could cover it up completely. This could be the turning point moving towards disclosure. Thanks,

David

Good point especially with another episode 4th horseman where a plague is realeased on Earth. I am assuming it's an Ori plague. That will be a little more difficult to keep quiet among the medical community. I think they are moving towards disclosure, but who knows TPTB can decide to explain it all away or never persue the subject any further. I'll just wait and see.

Gaterelle
August 30th, 2005, 06:58 AM
What a disappointment after such great episode that started this season! :(
This episode was completely boring, IMHO.

The only good parts were Teal'c having more lines and more acting...and Ba'al.
Ba'al is such a good villain, so funny and so fascinating to watch. :)

I miss Vala.

Vinny
August 30th, 2005, 07:08 AM
I reckon he cloned both host and symbiote - the original is probably hiding somewhere, so the clones keep everyone busy. If Baal is still after power, it looks like his best bet would be to work up to the Orii, so he can get their ascended powers, using the clones as cover. Baal in the future:

http://www.geocities.com/vinnydasingh/docibaal.gif

iLemon
August 30th, 2005, 10:46 AM
I loved Ba'al's accent :D Great episode, just wished they went into the cloning tech in a bit more detail, I'd love to know where he got it from, and how he cloned them so fast within 9 months :S

Publius
August 30th, 2005, 10:49 AM
What a disappointment after such great episode that started this season! :(
This episode was completely boring, IMHO.

The only good parts were Teal'c having more lines and more acting...and Ba'al.
Ba'al is such a good villain, so funny and so fascinating to watch. :)

I miss Vala.

Actually think this was the BEST episode of the year. Baal is an excellent villain, and I look forward to him being FAR more interesting than the very boring Ori.

The only redeming thing about the previous 6 episodes was the Vala-Daniel schtick. While I did like that schtick, it really wasn't enough to save those episodes from being very poor. This is not to say that this episode was particularly great, but when you stack 'average' next to 'poor' it looks pretty good.

I can't believe I am saying it, but if this Ori thing is what we have to look forward to for the next N years of SG-1, I ALMOST hope the series would end gracefully.

Gaterelle
August 30th, 2005, 11:11 AM
Actually think this was the BEST episode of the year. Baal is an excellent villain, and I look forward to him being FAR more interesting than the very boring Ori.

The only redeming thing about the previous 6 episodes was the Vala-Daniel schtick. While I did like that schtick, it really wasn't enough to save those episodes from being very poor. This is not to say that this episode was particularly great, but when you stack 'average' next to 'poor' it looks pretty good.

I can't believe I am saying it, but if this Ori thing is what we have to look forward to for the next N years of SG-1, I ALMOST hope the series would end gracefully.

Well, since I love the Ori plot, I'm not going to argue with you. ;)
I agree that Baal is great but the rest of the plot this episode was just boring, to me.

Avatar28
August 30th, 2005, 04:48 PM
Overall interesting episode. I totally flipped when the transported the building. I mean, granted, it wasn't an especially BIG building but still, a whole building! Somehow I never considered the transporters could possibly transport anything that large. Go Asgard!

I have to agree that I wondered how they're going to cover it up. Buildings just don't disappear like that but it will probably be quickly relegated to the same status as, for instance, the claims that 9/11 was actually done by our gov't and/or that they're covering up stuff about it.

Baal on earth...I have to say, moving in with your biggest enemy it's, well, dare I say it, ballsy. Someone had said something early on about the accomodations but, really, it seems to me that in many ways our society is more comfortable than the goa'uld's. Certainly it seems that most of our technology is more pervasive than what we've seen of most other planets.

sclairef99
August 31st, 2005, 06:41 AM
I'll give my two thumbs up to this episode. Poor Barrett. LOL. "Not exactly" is music to my Shipper ears!! Thanks, JM!!

Baal clones? Wonder which one is in charge? Only one babe for all those clones? ;) Anyway, I hope to get more info on the cloning "thing".

I agree that in a post 9/11 world a "disappearing" or "exploding" building would not be a small bit of news. Living around alot of chemical plants, everytime there is a leak the first thing said on the new is "this doesn't seem to be a terror attack".

I didn't like the "patch" scene. It seemed like Sam was agreeing to be under Mitchell's command. I still believe Sam should command SG-1. I don't like that he calls her "Sam". Does anyone know what Sam calls Cam?

"Not Exactly" was also music to my shipper ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I liked Baal being a threat, didn't buy the building beaming...but a good fix never the less.

I did like the patch scene, as Mitchel offically got the band back together. As I saw it, he asked Sam for permission, unlike the way he just ripped and replaced Daniel's. It was a nod of authority, sort of . However, I'm w/you, why in the heck does he get to call her Sam? Though thankfully he doesn't call her just plain Carter - that was reserved for her CO of higher rank. But I can't recall that Carter has addressed anyone outside of Janet by first name, w/no rank, who carried a miliatary rank. Ah....perhaps they are trying to keep the competing ranks out of the scene....though it still is uncomfortable to me to see them so familiar...(no, I'm not being a paranoid shipper) it just sounds funny!

Anyway, good ep!

S

KatG
August 31st, 2005, 06:50 AM
"Not Exactly" was also music to my shipper ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I liked Baal being a threat, didn't buy the building beaming...but a good fix never the less.

I did like the patch scene, as Mitchel offically got the band back together. As I saw it, he asked Sam for permission, unlike the way he just ripped and replaced Daniel's. It was a nod of authority, sort of . However, I'm w/you, why in the heck does he get to call her Sam? Though thankfully he doesn't call her just plain Carter - that was reserved for her CO of higher rank. But I can't recall that Carter has addressed anyone outside of Janet by first name, w/no rank, who carried a miliatary rank. Ah....perhaps they are trying to keep the competing ranks out of the scene....though it still is uncomfortable to me to see them so familiar...(no, I'm not being a paranoid shipper) it just sounds funny!

Anyway, good ep!

S

Jack could have called her Sam if he'd wanted to. She also could have called him Jack outside of work. I always took it that "Carter" and "Sir" helped them keep from ignoring the regs in regard to their relationship. Also, as you said, Jack was a superior officer.

Sam and Cam (just love that) on the other hand are of equal ranks, and I got the idea from Avalon that they were good friends. So I don't really see a problem with them calling each other by their first names.

SierraGulf1
August 31st, 2005, 07:19 AM
I did like the patch scene, as Mitchel offically got the band back together. As I saw it, he asked Sam for permission, unlike the way he just ripped and replaced Daniel's. It was a nod of authority, sort of . However, I'm w/you, why in the heck does he get to call her Sam? Though thankfully he doesn't call her just plain Carter - that was reserved for her CO of higher rank. But I can't recall that Carter has addressed anyone outside of Janet by first name, w/no rank, who carried a miliatary rank. Ah....perhaps they are trying to keep the competing ranks out of the scene....though it still is uncomfortable to me to see them so familiar...(no, I'm not being a paranoid shipper) it just sounds funny!

For the record, Sam calls Cam "Mitchell" as seen in the ads for Babylon. So I suppose he could call her Carter if he wanted to. I guess it just depends on the person.

sclairef99
August 31st, 2005, 08:53 AM
Jack could have called her Sam if he'd wanted to. She also could have called him Jack outside of work. I always took it that "Carter" and "Sir" helped them keep from ignoring the regs in regard to their relationship. Also, as you said, Jack was a superior officer.

Sam and Cam (just love that) on the other hand are of equal ranks, and I got the idea from Avalon that they were good friends. So I don't really see a problem with them calling each other by their first names.

I don't really see it as a problem...just a bit weird sounding after all the years of military formality.... I agree w/the Carter/Sir as a way to avoid ignoring regs....

Thanks!
S

KatG
August 31st, 2005, 09:00 AM
I don't really see it as a problem...just a bit weird sounding after all the years of military formality.... I agree w/the Carter/Sir as a way to avoid ignoring regs....

Thanks!
S

You're welcome. I agree it is a little odd and different from what we're used to, but I kind of like it. :)

GhostPoet
August 31st, 2005, 10:57 AM
"Not Exactly" was also music to my shipper ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I liked Baal being a threat, didn't buy the building beaming...but a good fix never the less.

I did like the patch scene, as Mitchel offically got the band back together. As I saw it, he asked Sam for permission, unlike the way he just ripped and replaced Daniel's. It was a nod of authority, sort of . However, I'm w/you, why in the heck does he get to call her Sam? Though thankfully he doesn't call her just plain Carter - that was reserved for her CO of higher rank. But I can't recall that Carter has addressed anyone outside of Janet by first name, w/no rank, who carried a miliatary rank. Ah....perhaps they are trying to keep the competing ranks out of the scene....though it still is uncomfortable to me to see them so familiar...(no, I'm not being a paranoid shipper) it just sounds funny!

Anyway, good ep!

S


I could have sworn I heard Jacks "theme" music when she was saying "not exactly"

Publius
August 31st, 2005, 11:49 AM
David, if this government wants something "covered up", trust me, you'll never even hear a peep about it.

I think you badly overestimate the government's ability (especially in the Stargate Universe) to keep a secret. Even their most secretive aircraft projects usually get exposed earlier than they want them to be. Area 51 itself is the most publicly famous 'secret' in the world.

Let's look at how many people support/know about the Stargate program. Start with the SGC itself which at any given point in time probably has hundreds of folks working there at least from mechanics and guards and people like Walter in the control room to the SG-teams to the scientists and medical staff and other support staff like a cleaning crew.

Then realize that those people aren't static. There are more than just enough to staff the place in an 8 hours shift, the SGC is staffed (to some extent) 24/7. Also there is a certain level of turnover as people quit/retire/wash out/get injured/transfer. Those people all still know the secret, and with the stress level and injuries the SGC would generate, even the argument that it is a choice assignment doesn't negate this factor.

Then add in the NID staff, the Pentagon, the congressional and presidential staff that knows, the support folks for the Prometheus and her sister ship as well as the engineers and scientists of Area 51.

Now add on that all these people have loved ones that they aren't SUPPOSED to tell, but some would, or could get drunk in a bar and blab, or could exchange the info for money or prestige. They could leak the info on the basis of simply disagreeing that it should be kept secret.

Now also remember that Russia, China, France, and Britain AT THE MINIMUM have been briefed and they had the same problems of keeping it under wraps. It is reasonable to assume that a GREAT many more nations also might know especially Canada, Japan, South Korea, and probably most of Western Europe that constitutes our best friends.

This is before you factor in clever journalists like the lady who got held hostage when the Prometheus was being taped, or the guy who got run over in Season 1 or 2 after meeting with O'Neill. Remember that the Trust also knows...or knew before they became hosts.

Now also consider the spectacular events that have happened that would be hard to cover for, the building vanishing being the most difficult to explain. Numerous ships have crashed/descended upon earth. The entire cast of a film crew saw Martin's ship arriving and taped it in Wormhole Extreme!. There was a air battle fought over Antarctica two years ago. All those X-302s that the air force fought with have pilots and maintenance crews who know something is up.

The Stargate program is the most poorly kept secret in history. Even with a vast armada of 'men in black' working around the clock to tamp down all the leaks that should be happening it would be impossible for a free society to do.

Certainly the show itself has sought to explain how each incident was covered up and has hinted that some nasty methods are used when people try to go public, but there are just TO MANY points of failure. Where are the mass graves of people who tried to leak the information?

Certainly the disbelief factor is working in your favor when you try to cover something like this up because it is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But there's just to many people who know and I have long felt that one of the MOST unbelievable things in the show is that the gate is still secret. I was very disapointed last year when they ALMOST had to go public, and then chickened out at the end.

LMichelle
August 31st, 2005, 12:23 PM
I'm still missing Vala. :(

This ep was all about the fashion. Daniel brings out the leather jacket for us fangirls. :) It needs to get an on-screen credit, doesn't it? :p

Not only did Ba'al come to Earth, but he picked up a copy of GQ and went shopping for some smoking hot suits. Ba'al in pinstripes. Who'd a thunk it?

Sam's still got the messy hair. It must be from having sex with Jack. Try as they may, the costumers still can't hide Amanda's pregnnacy boobs, can they?

Wasn't expecting that ending. Ba'al clones. However when you put someone in a tank top and shorts behind a bar, the threat factor goes down significantly, doesn't it? :p

jjcabelinho
August 31st, 2005, 01:24 PM
finaly.. a good episode... I dont know if the fact that I was so high made a difference.. but this episode finaly broght back that feeling of something new. Let's see what is going to happend in the second fase of season 9... hopefully SG-1 will be bakc in the game, since season 7 - we real fans - are just wachting the show hoping for a change.. and it did.. thanks! :)

cafine_us
August 31st, 2005, 04:45 PM
I actually kind of like that the SGC is still a secret. I think it gives the show a sense that everything could actually be happening right now, sort of like how Wormhole Xtreme was unintentionally based on a real program and real people.

sclairef99
August 31st, 2005, 04:57 PM
I could have sworn I heard Jacks "theme" music when she was saying "not exactly"

Yep! I heard it too!

S

Fruit-Loops
September 2nd, 2005, 04:43 AM
I quite enjoyed this episode to tell you the truth. I think there were so many good aspects to it that i would watch it again and again. Loved the Ba'al team they had going there.

Great to see Sam back and i loved the 'not exactly' line. Ah, there is hope yet.

All in all, great to watch, 8/10.

GhostPoet
September 2nd, 2005, 08:19 AM
I remember some people mentioning that they couldn't believe that the entire building could be teleported...but now that I think about it...when the Asgard first made their appearance so many seasons ago..I remember them beaming an entire G'oauld ship off the surface of the planet as well as all the troops...those ships are WAY bigger than a building. :)

MarshAngel
September 2nd, 2005, 10:06 AM
I could have sworn I heard Jacks "theme" music when she was saying "not exactly"


Could you explain this so I can watch out for it? I've never made note of Jack having a theme music. Any other episodes it's in?

greytop
September 2nd, 2005, 10:09 AM
I remember some people mentioning that they couldn't believe that the entire building could be teleported...but now that I think about it...when the Asgard first made their appearance so many seasons ago..I remember them beaming an entire G'oauld ship off the surface of the planet as well as all the troops...those ships are WAY bigger than a building. :)That was in Thor's Chariot, S2. In case, anyone wants to know. ;)

Njord
September 3rd, 2005, 08:56 PM
Teal'c said motherships can't cloak. Has he forgotten the events of Serpent's Venom so quickly?

Uber
September 3rd, 2005, 09:50 PM
I couldn't find it, but I went back through the beginning of this thread 3 times trying to find the post so I can give credit to whoever proposed this idea: The "real" Ba'al might be in the blonde woman and not one of the clones.

I love this idea. I have no idea if it's right or even possible [in the Stargate world], but it would be perfect. Everyone is hunting down the Ba'al-look-a-likes, while the Ba'al go'auld is in the woman! And it's great because she can be in the thick of things [meeting with Carter] without anyone knowing. [Someone said Carter would have known, but someone else pointed out a case where they can "cloak" it, so that's a wash.] Great idea!Wow...that would be really cool...

And the instance to which you're referring is Fallout...Season 7 episode with Jonas Quinn. The gal he was falling for was a Goa'uld but neither Carter nor Teal'c couldn't sense the presence of the symbiote because of some sort of drug she was taking to obscure whatever vibe the naquadah generates in her system.

Anyway...back to whoever's theory this is...that is just such a neat idea!

:cool:

1DanielForMe
September 4th, 2005, 01:58 AM
That is a fantastic theory! Good on whoever thought of it!
I also have to say that this episode was quite entertaining.
Who would have thought I'd be almost happy to see Ba'al (or his clones, or whatever)?! :rolleyes:

Lord Zedd
September 4th, 2005, 09:33 AM
Teal'c said motherships can't cloak. Has he forgotten the events of Serpent's Venom so quickly?
Indeed I noticed it too !! ;)

sg-1fanintn
September 4th, 2005, 07:52 PM
Excellent ep! I really enjoyed it!

Watters87
September 5th, 2005, 08:12 AM
Teal'c said motherships can't cloak. Has he forgotten the events of Serpent's Venom so quickly?

What Teal'c probably meant was that the Free Jaffa motherships cannot cloak because we have not seen evidence that Anubis or Baal ever put a cloak on their motherships and most of the Jaffa motherships belonged to either Anubis or Baal.

the fifth man
September 5th, 2005, 07:12 PM
I, for one, can't wait until we we see Baal, or Baals, again. I think his character is a long way from over.

iBorg
September 7th, 2005, 03:17 PM
This is, in my mind, probably one of the best SG1 episodes. The change in setting was refreshing : Jaffas storming a corporate building, the cubicle guy, and Baal of course as a corporate empire-builder... Nice shots of Prometheus as well.
The end was very cool, and unexpected. I wonder how those Goaul'd clones (who are basically all power-hungry selfish individuals) will get along, though they look pretty relaxed right now.
"600 channels and nothing to watch" by a bored looking Baal was priceless.

stargatejo
September 7th, 2005, 04:29 PM
I didn't like it and I wanted to love it but I can't. For all the reason's stated above.

Shep'sSocks
September 7th, 2005, 11:56 PM
Aside from a query with the building, all the above posts seem to have loved it...

whatswiththehairtealc
September 8th, 2005, 06:55 AM
after watching the episode again durring the marrathon. i realized two things:

1 i like the ep with the orii better
and
2 what the hell does this title mean? (im sure it has been asked and aswered but im lazy like that so spare me)

rosewood
September 8th, 2005, 08:36 AM
2 what the hell does this title mean? (im sure it has been asked and aswered but im lazy like that so spare me)

Deus Ex Machina – translation: “A god from the machine”
In Greek plays, the actor playing the god would descend on a crane to the stage and resolve the conflict. So, literally, god appears out of nowhere from a machine and solves the problem for the humans. The god arriving by mechanical device is a trick played on the audience.

Today the term also refers to a common writing device where ‘something happens' to resolve the crisis - something outside the story resolves the conflict for the characters. As if from above, like Zeus descending from the heavens, an otherwise unpredictable solution appears to resolve an apparently unsolvable problem. It's usually done because the writers run out time, pages or minutes on a TV show to resolve things... or lack of new ideas. :rolleyes:

The title of this episode, Ex Deus Machina, is a play on words from that original latin phrase. Translation: 'out of a god machine'. If Ba’al has the technology to clone himself, well he’s made a god machine. And as with the Deus Ex Machina, it’s a trick. And some could say the whole cloning plot device is chosen when writers run out of better story ideas. :p

That's my take on it anyway.

Whistler
September 8th, 2005, 08:44 AM
after watching the episode again durring the marrathon. i realized two things:

1 i like the ep with the orii better
and
2 what the hell does this title mean? (im sure it has been asked and aswered but im lazy like that so spare me)

Uh it's a rearrangement of the latin phrase "Deus Ex Machina" which means "God from the Machine" it was used when in a play a God would seemingly come out of the sky via a machine and solve all the problems, it's come to mean something that comes to end an impossible situation. The way it's arranged in this Ep makes it mean "Machine out of God." :)

I don't know what it means but then again the series hasn't started showing here yet...

Gary83uk
September 16th, 2005, 08:22 AM
fyi was cringeable

Pharaoh Atem
September 17th, 2005, 03:46 PM
this was a good episode and i love how it started with the jaffa running and then gets hit by the car and makes you think for a second huh

Ugly Pig
September 18th, 2005, 12:25 PM
I find it interesting that Ba'al would clone not just himself, but his host as well. Would've been much quicker and easier to just grab random people off the street, wouldn't it? I guess he is just that fond of him... :)

But how did he match the clones to his own age? I suppose he could have used the Goa'uld aging nano technology to age the hosts quickly, but how did he get all the symbiotes to mature?

yabyumpan
September 18th, 2005, 12:39 PM
I find it interesting that Ba'al would clone not just himself, but his host as well. Would've been much quicker and easier to just grab random people off the street, wouldn't it? I guess he is just that fond of him... :)



I thought the whole point of him cloning the host as well was that he could use the clones to fool people, which he did :)

LiquidBlue
September 19th, 2005, 09:22 AM
How come Sam did not sense all the Goauld's in the building when she was there? Unless that ability is gone now, Jolinear was awhile ago.


This is one of my questions. The other question: Why did Teal'c say that the mothership would not be cloaked? Back in Season four's, "The Serpent's Venom" we saw that Apophis had a large fleet of cloaked motherships. Of course Apophis's fleet was eventually destroyed. But did no one besides Sokar/Apophis equip their motherships with cloaking devices? Were all of Apophis's cloaking mothership destroyed.

This is also the first episode where an invasion has successfully conducted opperations on earth. How did that happen? What about the early warning and earth defense systems that have been developed and deployed over the last 8 seasons?

I guess one must ask where the Naquadah came with which to construct the building. I suppose it is possible that the Trust had reserved a Naquadah supply.

A speculation: The final scene with the Ba'al clones made me suspect that the woman seen is also a Baal clone. I find it reasonable to subscribe to the theory that Baal cloned his host so as to be able to seed confusion.

I guess I have another question. If the Jaffa council sees fit to judge and execute Goa'uld, how do they know that they have the Goa'uld that they are looking for? Sure, it might be easy to identify the host, but how do you identify the Goa'uld. If a system lord is on the run, he may simply take a new host. How then could the council positively identify that the Goa'uld within any particular person is a Goa'uld under judgement.

Another speculation: Does Garek know that he had captured a clone. I believe that it is very likely. His interrogations probably revealed Baal's cloning activities. He then had the option to bring any one of them before the council. The clone he presented before the council was probably taken from a location different from the activities presented in the episode. If this is the case, we can witness that Garek was more interested in establishing his position, than in bringing Baal to justice or letting the truth be known.

Karnius
September 20th, 2005, 05:17 AM
Sorry but im the only who who think that the gouvernement would not let our planet and space area threaten like this?

I mean common, they have no right to come on earth like spy! What would happen if we had do this on there planet? we would have been taken down. I mean they dont even say to the Jaffa that the next time they do that this will gonna go bad for them.. Lets them do whatever they want on our planet?

And a building desapearing in a gigantic glow is REALLY strange and i still dont figure media just do nothing about it.

also the fact that the mothership cant cloak...since when?.. :rolleyes:

Anyway i think its a really poor script beside the team lines.

LtColCarter
September 24th, 2005, 08:41 AM
I loved the "not exactly" by Sam! :) I hope they explore that comment a little in the future. :D

I also liked the beaming up of the building...how did they explain that away?

TrustNo1
October 1st, 2005, 05:24 AM
Something has been nagging at me and I'm sorry if it's already been brought up. Teal'c said that mother ships do not have cloaking abilities but I swear I've seen a previous episode where several mother ships decloaked. I think it was the episode where Jacob Carter needed Sam and Daniel to reset the space mine to lock onto Anubis'? mother ship.

Daniel's_twin
October 1st, 2005, 06:49 AM
The way I explain that little flaw away is this:

Apophis (it was his fleet that could cloak) had taken over Sokar's fleet, and it looks like some of his tech was a little more advanced in some areas then the other System Lords (I'm not calling him Anubis, but you gotta admit, he was the first one to have a flagship like that! I also remember Teal'c or Selmak/Jacob saying something about a Goa'uld never have been able to cloak an entire mothership before, let alone an entire fleet, so it's possible that the technology died along with Apophis' fleet. But then, It's been a while since I've seen Serpent's Venom. Anyone who has that ep on tape/DVD, could you verify? :cool: