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View Full Version : Weapons of Mass Desruction (and Mutually Assured Destruction)



LiquidBlue
July 23rd, 2005, 01:11 PM
We have seen a number of weapons and technologies that are truely weapons of mass destruction. Weapons that make Anubis's super-weapon look positively puny. For example:

1) The gate-blackhole combo.
2) The stellar poison trick. (a la "Red Sky")
3) The ZPM conversion of Camulus.

Each of these is can kill a system. There are probably enough gates around to pull the first one off thousands of times. Any interstellar spacecraft could probably perform the second. So why are these methods not in the Goa'uld arsenal?

I can recall two overt attacks on earth by the Goa'uld. If either Apophis or Anubis had used one (especially the gate-blackhole combo) they could have easily destroyed earth. Apophis even had an available gate!

Elite Anubis Guard
July 23rd, 2005, 01:53 PM
You missed blowing up the suns.

LiquidBlue
July 23rd, 2005, 02:06 PM
You missed blowing up the suns.

You are right. When I wrote "gate-blackhole hole combo" I meant the trick Carter used to destroy Apophis's fleet. But I guess you could also use the combo to destroy a planet as they feared might happen in "A Matter of Time."

Qasim
July 23rd, 2005, 02:13 PM
They were never used because the goa'uld knew Sam would defeat them lol

Auralis
July 23rd, 2005, 02:14 PM
One weapon most sci-fi series, shows, books miss entirely:
Just take a big ship and crash it as fast as you can into the target planet.
And with hyperdrive tech, you can even popuout of hyper so close to the target that there is no possible defense. Except maybe for a huge planetary shield.

Oh and btw, hiyas everyone :)

Atlantis_Man
July 23rd, 2005, 03:19 PM
perhaps over kill?????

you know the goa'uld do still want something to rule over!

iBorg
July 23rd, 2005, 03:56 PM
perhaps over kill?????

you know the goa'uld do still want something to rule over!

Exactly. If you want to rule (and exploit) a planet/system you try not to destroy it entirely or there's nothing left to possess. Goa'ulds are basically feudal lords/divinities who enjoy having enire worlds worshipping them. They'd probably commit suicide from loneliness if there weren't anybody left to serve and worship them.
Of course, future SG enemies may not have the same goal but rather want to destroy anything. The replicators were somewhat similar : they just wanted to multiply and replace everything else.

_Owen_
July 23rd, 2005, 07:32 PM
Yes, but I think it was because Apophis really wasn't that smart. For centuries, at least, the Goa;uld had been used to fighting lesser beings with no chance of defending themselves, you know a nice airel bombardment from orbit, a Death Glider wave, maybe a few regiments of Jaffa, Apophis never needed "creative" ideas to accomplish his goals as well with the other system lords. When we came along, the were unprepared. After centuries of never actually thinking, he and they probably had no idea what to do, so they stuck with the regular.

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
July 24th, 2005, 08:08 AM
I am glad for Atlantis_Man's point. Obviously, most of the time the goa'uld engage in conflict to enlarge their influence and gain new resources. In such a fight one would not want to escalate the fighting to the point where the conflict destroys the very things desired.

Earth is a different case. We saw in the alternate reality that Apophis meant to decimate the Earth's population. Perhaps he was merely overconfident and uncreative.

Anubis was different. We saw what he did to abydos. He certainly had access to technology. We saw that he had no qualms about conducting death and destruction on the entire galaxy. He could have employed any number of weapons that Earth would not have had any defence against.

What ever happened to the Naquadah astroid. I doubt Earth has taken possession of it -- they would not have to worry about Naquadah supply problems in that case. Suppose Anubis had taken it and detonated it near earth. Suppose Anubis had droped a gate into the sun. How do you defend against that even with the Ancient outpost?

This brings me to my last point. Perhaps the Goa'uld follow something of a no first use policy. If earth could not defend itself against such types of attacks, neither could Anubis. If Anubis opened the door to such attacks, then the embattled system lords might have done the same to him. Notice then that Anubis's plan of galactic destruction makes a bit of sense. He would be opening the door to such types of attacks, but there would be no one left to attack him back.

Why would the Goa'uld adopt such a policy? Is it just good strategy? Did they learn the hard way?

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 11:13 AM
I don't believe that it is over-kill, if you have a wasp nest on your house, and you go with some wasp poison to kill them, in the middle of the night, and the bottle says, spray for 2-5 seconds at ten feet, now come on, are you really going to listen to it, that doesn't seem vvery practical, so instead you stand next to it and spray for a good thirty to forty seconds. My point is, it is better to be safe than sorry, and if that involves what some people might constitute as "over-kill" so be it. On Atlantis, when they kill a Wraith, do they not fire more shots into it than are needed, that is "over-kill" but it is also logical.

As for how we would deffend against a gate into the sun. We would add to its' mass, we find out how much mass the blackhole gate is taking out, and put that much in, the gate would eventually be destroyed, whether by the heat of the sun or be partially converted into energy.

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
July 25th, 2005, 08:06 PM
As for how we would deffend against a gate into the sun. We would add to its' mass, we find out how much mass the blackhole gate is taking out, and put that much in, the gate would eventually be destroyed, whether by the heat of the sun or be partially converted into energy.
Owen Macri

I'll have to watch the episode again. I think the idea was that sending the black-hole connected gate into the star would siphon off heat. This seems at first glance counter-intuitive, but the idea was to cool the star enough and sufficiently quickly that the outer layers would collapse towards the center, heat to great temperatures, and begin fusion.

Not only would the this attack be extremely difficult to remedy, defenders would have to detect the attack first, then quickly devise a plan and respond.

On another note, perhaps anubis had a reason not to completely destroy the earth. Maybe there was something he wanted to recover.

_Owen_
July 25th, 2005, 08:37 PM
The black hole removed some of the stars mass, allowing the explosive force of its' fusion to overwhelm its' gravitational force holding it together, which will cause it to explode.

Owen Macri

Loaf
July 26th, 2005, 10:39 AM
i don't think that trick would work anymore for all we know there might still be an ashen stargate connected to that stargate

_Owen_
July 26th, 2005, 11:07 AM
There is no reason for the trick not to work, the Wraith have never encountered it before. As for another gate being connected it is a possibility, unless the Aschen managed to shut it down, as we did. Seeing as the writers had plans for a third Achen episode, we can assume that they may have, but until it apears in the show...

Owen Macri

Loaf
July 27th, 2005, 04:21 AM
to make it work they would have to find a black hole in pegasus or make one

_Owen_
July 27th, 2005, 11:38 AM
No, they could use the black hole in the Milky Way, we assumed that the stars energy would provide the gate with enough power to make an eight chevron lock.

Owen Macri

Loaf
July 27th, 2005, 12:43 PM
thats asumeing that it would get enough energy before it burn't up

_Owen_
July 27th, 2005, 02:29 PM
We know that naquadah is a strong material and the Stargate uses all energy that is recieved in any form electrical, heat or otherwise.

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
July 27th, 2005, 04:58 PM
No, they could use the black hole in the Milky Way, we assumed that the stars energy would provide the gate with enough power to make an eight chevron lock.

Owen Macri

I had not considered using the blackhole trick in the pegasus galaxy with a blackhole in the milky way galaxy. Upon analysis it would be relativly straight forward.

-It is already possible to establish a wormhole, however brief, between Pegasus and the Milky Way using earth technology.

-When earth first encountered the wormhole, they found that it was providing the power to maintain the wormhole.

Thus, all that would need to be done would be to establish the wormhole, and let the blackhole provide the power to maintain the connection.

How about it? Lure the entire Wraith fleet into a single system, blow the star, destroying their fleet as Apophis's. You could even use a hyperspace capable Atlantis as bait, having it jump just at the right time. If they timed it really close who knows where the city could end up! :)

rockyman
July 27th, 2005, 07:30 PM
for one the goauld would never use the blackhole-stargate combo because they might get jaffa and theirselves killed. the poison trick would kill to many potentail slaves. and three i don't know about. four could destroy many vital resources. so to do any of those could be a great risk to any goauld.

_Owen_
July 27th, 2005, 11:01 PM
I had not considered using the blackhole trick in the pegasus galaxy with a blackhole in the milky way galaxy. Upon analysis it would be relativly straight forward.

-It is already possible to establish a wormhole, however brief, between Pegasus and the Milky Way using earth technology.

-When earth first encountered the wormhole, they found that it was providing the power to maintain the wormhole.

Thus, all that would need to be done would be to establish the wormhole, and let the blackhole provide the power to maintain the connection.

How about it? Lure the entire Wraith fleet into a single system, blow the star, destroying their fleet as Apophis's. You could even use a hyperspace capable Atlantis as bait, having it jump just at the right time. If they timed it really close who knows where the city could end up! :)
That is a good idea, I didn't even consider the fact that the black whole could provide power. However, I believe they used leftover power from a ZPM to dial Earth, but I can't exactly remember.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
July 27th, 2005, 11:08 PM
Of course here is what would happen.

Jaffa 1: Kel no shel rok tel ma...

Jaffa 2: Nek ta te, shel rok tem mok!

Jafa 1: rolta...

Jaffa 2: AAAAAHHHHHHH!

loosley translated this was thier conversation.

Jaffa 1: Hey I dare you to jump into that Stargate...

Jaffa 2: No, are you crazy I will be sucked up by the black hole!

Jaffa 1: Coward...

well you know the rest.

lol.

Owen Macri

Loaf
July 28th, 2005, 05:49 AM
your a bit warped aren't you

maybey they will blow up the wraith that way an geta tlanntis flung to an even further corner of the universe. An then they've got another spin off series :eek:

LiquidBlue
July 28th, 2005, 08:14 AM
your a bit warped aren't you

Hmmm.... :rolleyes:

That is a very interesting point. Has anyone else noted that the humans of earth have been the ones that end up employing the largest and most destructive weapons.

I am thinking about the nova that destroyed Apophis's fleet, and the poison attacks on an unknown number of worlds. I am thinking about Dakara. I am thinking about the information we gave to the Aschen.

What does that say about us the viewers? We respond well when our heros finally gain a bigger weapon and really give it to their enemies? We speak of peace, and imagine a better world, but our entertainment heros end up doing greater violence than their enemies.

Isn't this behavior, this response, similar to events in this world. For example, have not some people people moved beyond the point were they view the United States as a major power that may or may not pursue a policy that they disagree with, to viewing it as nearly evil incarnate bent on destroying that which is most sacred. Do they not also cheer when their heros are finally able give back to their enemies? The more devestating and spectacularly the better?

Back to stargate,

Who spoke up when it was proposed that the Aschen be given the address to the blackhole planet? Who spoke for those individuals that might be innocent residents of the planet that Aschen may have used to dial that planet?

Who spoke up when the nova was proposed to destroy apophis's fleet? Who spoke for the countless Jaffa that would be killed in one blast? Who spoke for the system, the countless indigenous lifeforms that could be found on the Tok'ra planet, and would forever become extinct? Who spoke up for the immediate systems and their possible worlds that worlds that would be seriously affected by the increased radiation from the blast?

What about the seriously destablizing weapon systems that have been developed and deployed in secret?

Loaf
July 28th, 2005, 08:44 AM
the ashen are just evil if any of them serve or condone a regime that wipes out millions just for the sake of food. And if any of the jaffa on those ships served than they werew as guilty as apophis himself.

The entire system that was blown up was baren very little if nothing lived there an you could also argue that killing apophis saved more lives than if he had continued to live

_Owen_
July 28th, 2005, 09:46 PM
your a bit warped aren't you

maybey they will blow up the wraith that way an geta tlanntis flung to an even further corner of the universe. An then they've got another spin off series :eek:
Lol, amazing I posted that at like two o'clock in the morning, I don't know for some reason last night I was feeling really, I don't know, warped might be good word, maybe excited, wierd.

Owen Macri

Loaf
July 29th, 2005, 05:45 AM
maybey you were suffering from a stimulant overdose

_Owen_
July 29th, 2005, 08:14 AM
Lol, thats just a nice way of saying maybe you were high! No, I wasn't high, well maybe but if I was I was high on life, AND NOTHING MORE...

Owen Macri

Loaf
July 29th, 2005, 11:35 AM
sure you didn't drink to much coffee :D

valha'lla
July 29th, 2005, 05:29 PM
sure you didn't drink to much coffee :D
black with lots of sugar if thats the case :D
JUst wondering was the sheild used when it was done in the milky way in oder to give the gate enought time to get to the sun and distablise it or to stop the black hole destroying the Hatak any way ud need a sheild to do this and if the sheild is needed to keep the gate from disintagrating or exploding i don't think it would be able to draw enough power to establish the worm hole to the MW due to the sheilds interferance.

Loaf
July 30th, 2005, 01:59 AM
um very black coffee with 3 sugars :D

hopefully the gate would absorb the energy fromn the star instead of being disintigrated an wouldn't need a sheild but like is aid why don't we make our own black hole in pegasus :cool:

valha'lla
July 30th, 2005, 05:50 AM
the asgard can do it that we know but ummm well since they wont give us energy weapons i think that a black hole making weapon would inovle the sentence "ummmm....no!".

Loaf
July 31st, 2005, 08:55 AM
we might eb able to make our own black hole. It would be very tiny, but does it realy need to be that big all we need is a super high enrgy particle accelorator

_Owen_
August 1st, 2005, 08:37 PM
sure you didn't drink to much coffee :D
THAT'S IT! Someone probably spiked my coffee with MORE COFFEE! lol.

Owen Macri

SP90
August 2nd, 2005, 10:04 AM
What about the device on Dakara? Surely that is a weapon of mass destruction. Hell, one could argue its a weapon of complete destruction, seeing as how it can wipe out all life in the galaxy at the push of a button. :eek:

LiquidBlue
August 2nd, 2005, 11:40 AM
What about the device on Dakara? Surely that is a weapon of mass destruction. Hell, one could argue its a weapon of complete destruction, seeing as how it can wipe out all life in the galaxy at the push of a button. :eek:

It certainly is a weapon of mass destruction (or can be used in that way.) Notice again that it is the humans of earth that have employed it; even spreading its effects throughout the entire galaxy.


the ashen are just evil if any of them serve or condone a regime that wipes out millions just for the sake of food.

The aschen are evil? Certainly the individuals earth interacted with were evil. (And we haven't even defined evil for the purposes of this discussion.) However, we do not know about the rank and file Aschen. Do the they even know of the actions of there government. The atrocities committed were all on different planets and the means of communications limited. How easy would it be then for the government to simply lie to them. Are the regular Aschen guilty? Do they merit the partial destruction of their planet?


And if any of the jaffa on those ships served than they werew as guilty as apophis himself.

If this is the case, then the Trust had the right idea. How humane was their weapon! It would not contaminant the environment. It woudl not indiscrimately kill the innoncent along with the guilty. Only the Goa'uld and the Jaffa that served them would be killed.

_Owen_
August 2nd, 2005, 01:49 PM
What about the device on Dakara? Surely that is a weapon of mass destruction. Hell, one could argue its a weapon of complete destruction, seeing as how it can wipe out all life in the galaxy at the push of a button. :eek:
Well, not to nitpick, but at present, it is probably blown up, and destroyed, however if it isn't, it is probably still set to disrupt the kiron pathways of the replicators, in this case it would take the pushes of several buttons.

Owen Macri