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~Thor~
July 17th, 2005, 06:38 AM
IF the gate works by bending space, shouldn't it take less power to dial a gate further a way?

If you take a really small piece of metal sheet, and try bend the two ends to touch, it is a lot harder then if you have a longer peice, or a really long peice. Shouldn't the same go for the gate?

Chachi
July 17th, 2005, 04:36 PM
IF the gate works by bending space, shouldn't it take less power to dial a gate further a way?

If you take a really small piece of metal sheet, and try bend the two ends to touch, it is a lot harder then if you have a longer peice, or a really long peice. Shouldn't the same go for the gate?

However, the gates do not work by bending space, they bore a wormhole through subspace to the other side of the galaxy (or to whichever gate is being dialed).

as for the 8th chevron requiring more power, think of the wormholes like high voltage power lines that send electricity around the country. The voltage on those is EXTREMELY high as well as the current passing through them because energy is lost in transmission over distance. It could be that sustaining wormholes out past our galaxy naturaly looses a lot of energy to the region of subspace that it is passing through. Damn you 2nd law of thermodynamics! Damn you!!!!!

-Chachi

briguy213
July 17th, 2005, 04:47 PM
Its costs more to dial a long distance phone number...

Did that help?

MartoufMarty
July 17th, 2005, 05:04 PM
Its costs more to dial a long distance phone number...

Did that help?
LMAO!

That's just the best way to explain it lol.

briguy213
July 17th, 2005, 05:18 PM
Yes, I helped out.

_Owen_
July 17th, 2005, 05:38 PM
Your initial assumption would be correct, except for two points. You are thinking on a linear plane, comparing three dimensional space to an also three dimensional piece of metal, but using the two dimensional surface to explain. As well, the universe, cannot even begin to be explained by a piece of metal, simply because it is easaier to bend a larger piece of metal, does not mean that the same applies to space, as well, you don't actully, bend space.

As well, Chachi is correct, the Stargates do not use space-folding technology, they use wormholes, a diffrent concept.

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
July 17th, 2005, 08:28 PM
Your initial assumption would be correct, except for two points. You are thinking on a linear plane, comparing three dimensional space to an also three dimensional piece of metal, but using the two dimensional surface to explain. As well, the universe, cannot even begin to be explained by a piece of metal, simply because it is easaier to bend a larger piece of metal, does not mean that the same applies to space, as well, you don't actully, bend space.

As well, Chachi is correct, the Stargates do not use space-folding technology, they use wormholes, a diffrent concept.

Owen MacriYou People…. it takes the same amount of energy to bend a 6 inch piece of steel as it does a 3 ft piece of steel, the energy required is just spread out over a longer distance this is extremely basic physics people

and the stargate does not bend space it creates a hole to subspace and then out of subspace

cozzerob
July 18th, 2005, 01:23 AM
And isn't the larger piece of metal easier to bend due to having a larger moment? the whole force*distance from pivot idea. Space doesn't work like a huge see-saw (as far as I know, but apparently, we know very little about physics...).

Oh, and as has been stated countless times, the stargate doesn't work that way anyway...

jaden10
July 18th, 2005, 02:11 AM
And isn't the larger piece of metal easier to bend due to having a larger moment? the whole force*distance from pivot idea. Space doesn't work like a huge see-saw (as far as I know, but apparently, we know very little about physics...).

Oh, and as has been stated countless times, the stargate doesn't work that way anyway...

(Owen you may want to take notes from this)

First, your thinking with regular physics, Yes if a piece of metal if big enough a ant can fold it in half, because of the weight of the object already pulling it down, but we are talking Wormhole Physics here.
In theory you can use a 9volt battery to travel across the universe via worm hole if you have big enough "step up" transformers , BUT the problem is this. When you are initiating a worm hole and keeping it open, it is the tunneling effect that chew up power, And yes, Wormholes DO fold space (and by wormholes I am talking blackholes).
BUT we aren't talking folding space here. The stargate sends matter through subspace which DOES take MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF POWER, cause it is first opening a rift of sorts into subspace, so it has to break the space/time barrier, second it is sustaning the wormhole that is going through the rift in subspace and 3rd it is transmitting massive amounts of data (by our standards) through that wormhole that is going through subspace. And if that wasn't enough, it has to puch another hole from subspace to normal space to make a connection to the receiving gate.
So the process of weaving in and out of subspace, sustaining the wormhole and transmitting is the prime factor of the power requirements.

Now think about it (I am going by Stargate Physics here) when the earth gate opened up to the Asgard homeworld "othalla" in the galaxy of ida it only required a energy boost from a liquid naquadah cell from a Jaffa staff weapon, and boosted to 10 to the 3rd power. Reason, Ida is closer to us where we are in our galaxy then to the Pagasus Galaxy (Secret, it takes our galaxy 10,000 years to do a complete spin around). BUT to goto Pegasus it required power on the line of 10 to the 22nd power cause it has to cross our entire galaxy to pagasus which is over (last I read) 194 thousand light years away from earth, where as othalla is only 92 thousand light years away.

I don't know if that made sense, but that is the reason.

_Owen_
July 18th, 2005, 05:02 AM
Sorry, I don't have time to read it, so I will get back to it on Wednesday. Sorry.

Owen Macri

pleed
July 19th, 2005, 06:14 PM
in one episode, DR Jackson explained the stargate with a sheet of A4 paper, put a hole through both ends of the paper then bent the paper so the holes were right near each other, he then explained that the stargate 'bends' space so you can travel really long distances, really fast.
I would say that the extra processes that the stargate computer would need to do to bend space would require extra power, nothing to do with distances, all to do with processing power.

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Now think about it (I am going by Stargate Physics here) when the earth gate opened up to the Asgard homeworld "othalla" in the galaxy of ida it only required a energy boost from a liquid naquadah cell from a Jaffa staff weapon, and boosted to 10 to the 3rd power. Reason, Ida is closer to us where we are in our galaxy then to the Pagasus Galaxy (Secret, it takes our galaxy 10,000 years to do a complete spin around). BUT to goto Pegasus it required power on the line of 10 to the 22nd power cause it has to cross our entire galaxy to pagasus which is over (last I read) 194 thousand light years away from earth,
The real life Pegasus Galaxy is 3 million light years away. Our galaxy is about 100,000 light years across its widest part.

where as othalla is only 92 thousand light years away.
I don't think we know how far Ida is, I'm pretty sure it wasn't stated in the show. There is no real life Ida Galaxy, AFAIK but I could be wrong. Also, Pegasus is one of the closest galaxies to ours, so one would think Ida is farther away (but not canon).

briguy213
July 19th, 2005, 07:07 PM
I think the key part about Jadens Quoted statement you have, is "I am going by stargate physics here". So when you say "real", you both are talking about different things. Need I make an example?

VirtualCLD
July 19th, 2005, 07:34 PM
I think the key part about Jadens Quoted statement you have, is "I am going by stargate physics here". So when you say "real", you both are talking about different things. Need I make an example?

I know, I was just stating what I do know, and what other fans have speculated. Besides, I wasn't talking about real physics, I was talking about real names of places and their distances.

_Owen_
July 19th, 2005, 07:45 PM
Dr. Jackson, the doctor of archeaology was wrong, if that is what he stated. It is a commong misconception, in fact, many people explain wormholes that way, but in fact that is the concept of bending space, not wormholes, the apple is a closer example, stil not great, but closer.

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
July 19th, 2005, 08:27 PM
Subspace is like hyperspace the reason hyperspace is so fast is because hyper space is smaller than normal space and i think doctor jackson was showing that i don't think he was talking about folding space

_Owen_
July 20th, 2005, 06:18 PM
I can't even remember the episode, but this is a common way to explain wormholes, which is wrong.

Owen Macri

VirtualCLD
July 20th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Just to add information to my previous post:
We do know that the RL Pegasus Galaxy is 3 Million light years away.

Many have speculated Ida ( a fictional galaxy) is farther. In Exodus, SG-1 and Apophis are accellerated into a Replicator infested galaxy (presumably Ida, since this is where the main war with the Replicators is going on, but not definitive). Jacob says at one point that they traveled 4.5 million light years, which would show that Ida may indeed be farther than Pegasus, based on those assumptions. In Fifth Race (where O'Neill traveled to Ida), we saw that the 8th Chevron lock took more power than what the gate normally takes.

_Owen_
July 20th, 2005, 09:17 PM
I think in "Exodus" they were accelerated much farther away, to an unknown galaxy. I do not believe it was Ida, if it was, they might have been able to identify it.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
July 21st, 2005, 01:02 AM
By real theory it takes no more energy to create a wormhole to take me to lectures every morning than it does to send me to the core of the sun. Since when one chevron is engaged on the source gate the destination one lights up too, there must be a great deal of gates that are triggered simultaneously (all the ones whose first symbol is encoded in the first chevron on the source gate) and the number is decreased with each subsequent encoded glyph until that plethora of targets is narrowed down to a single one. Logically when you move into a new galaxy there're millions of new gates to exclude, I believe the extra energy is spent on error control only.

_Owen_
July 21st, 2005, 01:44 AM
That is a good idea, I didn't think of that, but perhaps the second gate doesn't start lighting up until the entire sequence on the first gate is complete, remember we have to account for the time that the signals take to reach the other gates. As well, it seems likley that the gate would wait until the entire adress is input, when you dial a phone number that starts with 3 all of the phones that start with three don't start ringing and then stop as you dial more numbers. They don't do that because it is impractical you would have hundreds if not thousands, if not millions of phones ringing at once, which would probably disrupt people.

Man is shingling roof
Phone rings,
jumps off roof runs into the house,
phone stops ringing, turns around
phone immediatley starts ringing again
reaches for phone,
stops ringing,
starts ringing again,
grabs phone,
stops ringing,
holds phone by face,
starts ringing again,
presses "talk" in mid ring,
"HELLO!"
no one is there because they hadn't finished dialing the phone number.

Seems kind of stupid.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
July 21st, 2005, 04:52 AM
They don't do that because it is impractical you would have hundreds if not thousands, if not millions of phones ringing at once, which would probably disrupt people.
Point of contention number 1: gates are not telephones.

We know that gates dial in real time. Radio messages have neglegible transmission time through a wormhole (instant MALP response and real time radio communication) and messages sent immediately through a just-connected stargate reach their intended target. Transmission time for objects through the gate is alot greater than dialling time and one can step through a wormhole as soon as it's formed, no need to wait for the other terminal to connect. Lastly, in New Ground and Double Jeopardy we switch between Earth and the target gate and we see that they dial and connect in real time.

They don't do that because it is impractical you would have hundreds if not thousands, if not millions of phones ringing at once, which would probably disrupt people.
It happens, nonetheless, as it's a logical side effect of the definite dialling process we see employed.

~Thor~
July 21st, 2005, 05:02 AM
We know that gates dial in real time.
If you mean that the whoosh occurs at same time, which I am assuming since you said:one can step through a wormhole as soon as it's formed, no need to wait for the other terminal to connect.

Once you have entered the first 6 coordinated, the second gate can start dialing (although it shoudln't until after the activate button has been pressed), while the outgoing gate is locking 7th chevron and kawooshing, the incoming gate would have enough time to finsih the dialing (as there is no need for the 7th chevron (I'm not sure if this is proven wrong on the show though)), the extra time needed to kawoosh would be the time it takes to travel.

Lord §okar
July 21st, 2005, 05:16 AM
No. Once you enter the first symbol the second gate starts dialling. I just said why.

(as there is no need for the 7th chevron (I'm not sure if this is proven wrong on the show though)), the extra time needed to kawoosh would be the time it takes to travel.
The Earth gate takes a hell of alot longer to dial than the time spent in transit. Offworld chevrons encode at the same rate as local ones, ergo there can be no loss of time.


Lastly, in New Ground and Double Jeopardy we switch between Earth and the target gate and we see that they dial and connect in real time

~Thor~
July 21st, 2005, 05:25 AM
How is the gate supposed to know which gate to dial until all 6 chevrons are entered.
Unless of course it is like you enter the first button, and all gates with that glyph in same location on address will start dialing. When you enter the second, onlhy the gates with that glyhp as second one in address will continue dialing and others shut off etc. Is that what would happen?

Qasim
July 21st, 2005, 05:33 AM
As it creates a longer wormhole they need more power for the extra distance

Lord §okar
July 21st, 2005, 06:44 AM
How is the gate supposed to know which gate to dial until all 6 chevrons are entered.
Unless of course it is like you enter the first button, and all gates with that glyph in same location on address will start dialing. When you enter the second, onlhy the gates with that glyhp as second one in address will continue dialing and others shut off etc. Is that what would happen?
Yes! Now we're on the same page, of course you could have just read my original post that spawned this whole line of discussion before responding.

By real theory it takes no more energy to create a wormhole to take me to lectures every morning than it does to send me to the core of the sun. Since when one chevron is engaged on the source gate the destination one lights up too, there must be a great deal of gates that are triggered simultaneously (all the ones whose first symbol is encoded in the first chevron on the source gate) and the number is decreased with each subsequent encoded glyph until that plethora of targets is narrowed down to a single one. Logically when you move into a new galaxy there're millions of new gates to exclude, I believe the extra energy is spent on error control only.

As it creates a longer wormhole they need more power for the extra distance
Why didn't we think of that? :rolleyes:

_Owen_
July 21st, 2005, 06:48 AM
You are forgeting the gate needs to somehow transmit information over light years, before the wormhole has even been established. This is what I think happens. Gate A dials, wormhole established, just the wormhole, Gate B will recieve it, both will activate event horizons, so there is a period in time, however small, that the wormhole is established but not the event horizon. If Gate B is burried, the wormhole will establish and try to lock, but will not find anything to lock with, so, the gate will not activate, however if the wormhole does connect, the event horizon will activate allowing transit between Stargates.

I know we often see Gate B dialing however, this could just be an oversight. Seeing as my previously stated hypothesis seems very likley. If this were not the case, and the event horizon activated at the same time as the wormhole, then when we dialed Gate B and it was burried we would have an event horizon while the wormhole searches and then it would disapear, however this is not the case.

It seems likley that the offworld gates dialing in is simply an oversight in the episode production.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
July 21st, 2005, 07:02 AM
You are forgeting the gate needs to somehow transmit information over light years, before the wormhole has even been established. This is what I think happens. Gate A dials, wormhole established, just the wormhole, Gate B will recieve it, both will activate event horizons, so there is a period in time, however small, that the wormhole is established but not the event horizon. If Gate B is burried, the wormhole will establish and try to lock, but will not find anything to lock with, so, the gate will not activate, however if the wormhole does connect, the event horizon will activate allowing transit between Stargates.

I know we often see Gate B dialing however, this could just be an oversight. Seeing as my previously stated hypothesis seems very likley. If this were not the case, and the event horizon activated at the same time as the wormhole, then when we dialed Gate B and it was burried we would have an event horizon while the wormhole searches and then it would disapear, however this is not the case.
None of this is relevant to my theory at all, furthermore it is logically unsound.

You say that no wormhole can be formed without prior transmission of coordinates, but then go on to say that the coordinates are transmitted through a wormhole which, by previous admission, cannot exist without prior transmission of coordinates through a wormhole which, by previous admission, cannot exist without prior transmission of coordinates through a wormhole which, by previous admission, cannot exist without prior transmission of coordinates through a wormhole which...... ad infinitum.

How the coordinate data gets to gates is not an issue the point is it does get to them near instantaneously the evidence for I have already stated.

It seems likley that the offworld gates dialing in is simply an oversight in the episode production.
I see, so when you see something on the show that doesn't fit with your theory you dismiss it since the writers really meant to say what you want?

Seeing as my previously stated hypothesis seems very likley.
To me it seems impossible and immaterial.

_Owen_
July 21st, 2005, 07:33 AM
To you it seems impossible because you did not understand it. I can tell because of what you posted in reply.

This is the series of event:

1) chevron 1 locked on Gate A
2) chevron 2 locked on Gate A
3) chevron 3 locked on Gate A
4) chevron 4 locked on Gate A
5) chevron 5 locked on Gate A
6) chevron 6 locked on Gate A
7) Point of origin and chevron seven locked on Gate A
8) chevrons eight and nine light up
9) wormhole is established and directed to input coordinates
10) if useable gate is found wormhole will connect
11) all nine chevrons light up on Gate B simultaneously as well both event horizons and vortexes are generated on both gates simultaneously
12) connection fully established

The wormhole may be established, Gate B does not need coordinates, Gate B does not need to know anything, it needs to know that a incoming wormhole has been esstablished and that it must open a recieveing event horizon and prepare for transfer.

The wormhole can be directed at Gate B using the information input into Gate A, Gate B just needs to light up and do what I said before. Therefore it is not logically unsound because the establishment of a wormhole does not require transmission of coordinates.

No, when something on the show seem incredibly implausible, difficult to achieve and not neccesary, but also not impossible, and I come up with a more plausible theory, that can explain an aspect of the show, and only a few scences of lights glowing prevent this theory, then I say, allthough the other theory is still possible, this is more likley, and being a television show, with humans at the controls, humans who can make mistakes and or not fully think things through it is still very possible that my theory is correct. Especially seeing as the recieveing gate does not need to know the coordinates dialed, yet, the only thing fully preventing my theory from taking precidence over yours is that, and a few scences.

The alternative is that the signals could be sent through the subspace which you say does not exist, so this cannot be part of your theory, otherwise you will be contradicting your self. Or the Stargate could bend space to send the signals, but then it would completley defeat the point of sending the signals in the first place to establish the wormhole.

Occam's Razor: one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

Allthough I don't believe in this and I believe some time more complicated is better, in this case it applies because your theory requires excess assumptions to be made which then allows it to disprove itself. For your theory to work, the signal would have to travel faster than the speed of light, relativley speaking. We have excluded subspace, because you do not believe it exists, we have excluded folding space because it would defeat the point of establishing a wormhole, in hyperspace the signal would not travel fast enough, because to get there fast enough it would have to reach the maximum level of hyperspace, subspace which you do not believe exists, as well, the gate would need a hyperspace window generator, which it doe not posses. The last idea is the Warp drive or the Alcubierre Drive, we can exlude that unless this signal can carry a warp bubble generator, or unless the stargate itslef posseses one which it doesn't that is able to project a warp bubble light years away, which it cannot.

Now the only thing preventing my theory are a couple of 20 second scenes, and the only thing preventing your theory is Einstein's Theory of Relativity. Tell me which one has more footing?

Owen Macri

VirtualCLD
July 21st, 2005, 08:02 AM
There have been a lot of debates on how the dialing sequence works between two gates. Do a search and you will find many a topic discussion on it (although the pictures that were once linked in those threads are probably gone). I remember going over this when Atlantis first premiered. I beleive the general conclusion was that there is no conclusion. Unfortuantely, the production team has been consistantly inconsistant on how the dialing works. There were refferences to several episodes where at some points, it looked like the "Gate B" would light up each chevron as "Gate A" dialed it. In other episodes, "Gate B" would light up all at once. There was another argument on hwo many chevrons light up. In Exodus, when the gate was hurled into the sun, only seven chevrons were lit, but in a scene later on, it looks like all nine chevrons are lit. In Atlantis's Rising, the orbital gate has all nine cevrons lit up when active.

There is also evidence, with the correlative updates, that the DHDs "dial" or send signals back and forth to figure out where other gates are. We've never seen a stargate dial itself, so it's possible there is some network communictation between gates with DHDs. Is it possible they send signals to eachother while dialing? I don't know.

_Owen_
July 21st, 2005, 08:13 AM
I have pretty much excluded that they do. They could, they would need either a subspace window generator, an incredibly advnced hyperspace window generator, the ability to fold space, which then would defeat the purpose of creating a wormhole, or to enable warp drive theory on the signals using either a warp bubble gerator that travel with the signal, which would have to be physically launched, or a warp bubble generator that can project a warp bubble lightyears away. While it is possible it is highly unlikley.

Owen Macri

Madeleine
July 21st, 2005, 01:24 PM
By real theory it takes no more energy to create a wormhole to take me to lectures every morning than it does to send me to the core of the sun. Since when one chevron is engaged on the source gate the destination one lights up too, there must be a great deal of gates that are triggered simultaneously (all the ones whose first symbol is encoded in the first chevron on the source gate) and the number is decreased with each subsequent encoded glyph until that plethora of targets is narrowed down to a single one. Logically when you move into a new galaxy there're millions of new gates to exclude, I believe the extra energy is spent on error control only.

I'm not sure that the chevrons lighting up on the destination gate is a simultaneous thing with the dialled gate. I reckon the home gate is dialled, then the wormhole grows from the source towards the destination, and as it grows the destination chevrons are lighting and then the kawoosh happens as the wormhole reaches the destination gate. It all takes just seconds, but it does take time. I'm basing this on the idea that since it takes time for mater to travel (we see a few seconds of wormhole SFX whenever we see a character's PoV as they enter the event horizon) it's reasonable to assume that the wormhole itself might take time to wholly form.

That's why I *don't* think that the first chevron means that every compatible gate in the network gets a chevron of its own lit.

Madeleine
July 21st, 2005, 01:44 PM
IF the gate works by bending space, shouldn't it take less power to dial a gate further a way?

If you take a really small piece of metal sheet, and try bend the two ends to touch, it is a lot harder then if you have a longer peice, or a really long peice. Shouldn't the same go for the gate?

It doesn't bend space, but you're not wrong to use that as an analogy for what happens. All analogies are imperfect, but that's one that the programme itself has used :)

Here's an analogy in that vein which might help explain why the 8th chevron takes more power: don't think of space as a sheet that gets folded in two, but of a sheet, with two points on it, that gets folded along parallel lines many times, kind of like the paper fans that children make. If your sheet is A4 sized (~ 8in x 11in for non-Brits) then the 'fan' will be not very deep when folded up and placed flat. That's a representation of two gates within our galaxy, and the two points will be pretty near once the paper is folded.

But if our galaxy is an A4 piece of paper then the distance between galaxies is probably in the order of miles. Imagine your piece of paper is 8 inches x 1 mile, and has a dot at each end. The 'fan' you make by folding it would be many feet high. That's a representation of the space between two gates in different galaxies.

It would be a few seconds' easy work to drill through the first fan from one dot to the other, but it would take minutes of effort (and a long long drill-bit) to drill between the dots of the second fan. Hence more power to reach the Pegasus gate than the Chulak gate.

Does that make sense?

_Owen_
July 21st, 2005, 01:49 PM
If the wormhole were to grow in stages, it would have to grow in diffrent directions and it would have to split into several wormholes, until it is narrowed down to one. The problem with having the wormhole grow is because without a Stargate the one end of the wormhole will jump from point to point randomly around the universe. Also it is quite probable that it would be attracted by another closer Stargate. The other problem with dialing in increments is because each symbol represents a point in space, you the first chevron the wormhole would be directed to it, then it would likley jump, but let's not get into that. So the womrhole would go to point A, B, C, D, E ,F, point F is the sixth point, then of course the gate must calculate where it should actually be, by connecting the six points. And finally you would not be able to estabish the wormhole until after all seven symbols are dialed, let alone dial in increments. The reason for this is because the seventh symbol dialed is the point of origin, and the Stargate needs that to activate the first side of the wormhole at the sending gate.

Sorry.

Owen Macri

Colonel Sharp
July 21st, 2005, 03:11 PM
I have FINNALLY finished reading all the posts *whew* and agree with Owen, it's the Ancients that built the stargate, and therefore probably made it efficeint as possible. Why waste the energy sending signals across the galaxy to thousands of stargates over and over until you lock on one? Why not just send the whole signal and transmit to the ONE gate? They would save tons of energy this way.

Also, my theory on why the chevrons light up in sequence as shown on the show, is to give the receiveing end warning of an incomeing wormhole, and possibly enemies.

gatelover12
July 21st, 2005, 03:29 PM
And finally you would not be able to estabish the wormhole until after all seven symbols are dialed, let alone dial in increments. The reason for this is because the seventh symbol dialed is the point of origin, and the Stargate needs that to activate the first side of the wormhole at the sending gate.

Sorry.

Owen Macri
From the ep "Exodus" we find out (or at least are forced to deduce) that gates have "some way" of innately knowing or finding out where they are.

from "exodus' (edited for major spoiler) Actually, the ship is owned by Earth. General Hammond has agreed to loan it to the Tok'ra in exchange for instructions on how to operate it. The Tok'ra will use it to transport all of their people and the Vorash Stargate to a new world -- a planet off the Goa'uld map of gates, so that they can finally establish a secure, long-term base of operations. so the gate should know where it is. AND the address must chage with location. unless you are saying the second gate has to help establish the wormhole. (or event horizon)

6thMonolith
July 21st, 2005, 03:47 PM
There have been a lot of debates on how the dialing sequence works between two gates. Do a search and you will find many a topic discussion on it (although the pictures that were once linked in those threads are probably gone). I remember going over this when Atlantis first premiered. I beleive the general conclusion was that there is no conclusion. Unfortuantely, the production team has been consistantly inconsistant on how the dialing works. There were refferences to several episodes where at some points, it looked like the "Gate B" would light up each chevron as "Gate A" dialed it. In other episodes, "Gate B" would light up all at once. There was another argument on hwo many chevrons light up. In Exodus, when the gate was hurled into the sun, only seven chevrons were lit, but in a scene later on, it looks like all nine chevrons are lit. In Atlantis's Rising, the orbital gate has all nine cevrons lit up when active.

I agree. For example, in Homecoming, the kelownan 'gate, when being dialed into, lit up each of the seven chevrons individually, when they were locked from the outgoing 'gate. And the Outgoing was ours; it was dialed manually. The result was that the kelownan gate locked it's chevrons with a pause between them, from chevron 1. How could the 'gate have known that kelowna was being dialed from the first chevron?

Plus, in other Episodes, we've heard Walter shout "Incoming wormhole!" without any dialing.

~Thor~
July 21st, 2005, 04:10 PM
I have read somewhere that their might be a microscopic wormhole connecting all gates together, at all times. . If this was the case then no wormhole would need to be created just the event horizon, and it could also send instructions, to open EH, to the recieving gate.

A theory on why some gates recieve incoming wormholes differnently, is they have certain settings which can be changed, depending on personal preferance. Or they are different versions (v 1.000.001 and v 1.000.002 etc) and each version has been programmed to recive incoming transmissions differently

Col. Newman
July 21st, 2005, 04:14 PM
I have read somewhere that their might be a microscopic wormhole connecting all gates together, at all times. . If this was the case then no wormhole would need to be created just the event horizon, and it could also send instructions, to open EH, to the recieving gate.

A theory on why some gates recieve incoming wormholes differnently, is they have certain settings which can be changed, depending on personal preferance. Or they are different versions (v 1.000.001 and v 1.000.002 etc) and each version has been programmed to recive incoming transmissions differentlyDifferences are just screw ups by the writers and such duh

_Owen_
July 21st, 2005, 07:38 PM
From the ep "Exodus" we find out (or at least are forced to deduce) that gates have "some way" of innately knowing or finding out where they are.

from "exodus' (edited for major spoiler) Actually, the ship is owned by Earth. General Hammond has agreed to loan it to the Tok'ra in exchange for instructions on how to operate it. The Tok'ra will use it to transport all of their people and the Vorash Stargate to a new world -- a planet off the Goa'uld map of gates, so that they can finally establish a secure, long-term base of operations. so the gate should know where it is. AND the address must chage with location. unless you are saying the second gate has to help establish the wormhole. (or event horizon)
I am not sure where you are going with this, yes the adress must change but what does that have to do with how the Stargate dials? Sorry if I am missing something I am very tired.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
July 21st, 2005, 07:46 PM
Well, we know from direct speech that the wormholes are artificially created and are not always there.


ACK: Look, I know I should know this by now. I swear it'll be the last time I ask. These wormholes we go through, they're not always there, right?

SAM: No, sir. It can only form between two open gates.


Here we see that the wormholes are only created when you activate the gate. If a constant network of womrholes were to be created, imense power would be needed because you would need multiple wormholes emerging from a single gate, all of the time. Then you would also need a way to specify a specific wormhole and "block" all of the rest.

Owen Macri

VirtualCLD
July 22nd, 2005, 08:06 AM
From the ep "Exodus" we find out (or at least are forced to deduce) that gates have "some way" of innately knowing or finding out where they are.

from "exodus' (edited for major spoiler) SPOILERS (Highlight below to read):
Actually, the ship is owned by Earth. General Hammond has agreed to loan it to the Tok'ra in exchange for instructions on how to operate it. The Tok'ra will use it to transport all of their people and the Vorash Stargate to a new world -- a planet off the Goa'uld map of gates, so that they can finally establish a secure, long-term base of operations. so the gate should know where it is. AND the address must chage with location. unless you are saying the second gate has to help establish the wormhole. (or event horizon)

I am not sure where you are going with this, yes the adress must change but what does that have to do with how the Stargate dials? Sorry if I am missing something I am very tired.

Owen Macri

Well, since this was brought up, I guess the question is, how does it dial other gates if the point of origin is no longer valid. This digs up another old arguement about the gates. Does each gate get it's own PoO, or does each planet/system? In some shots, like the Antarctic gate, or the "Gamekeeper" gate, we see a unique PoO not seen on any other stargate. But many other times (even when using the Antarctic stargate) we see the Earth PoO and no unique PoO (The reason for this being that TPTB didn't want to spend money replacign the Earth Egyptian symbol on the Antarctic gate when it was in use from Season 4 through 5. Why go through all the trouble reworking an expensive prop? Also, the portable, non-moving stargate they use to film on-location is a dublicate of the moving stargate prop, with the same symbols and they're not about to go and replace the PoO for each new planet). Anyway, based off the Antarctic stargate, it worked using a different PoO symbol for Earth, so the evidence seems to show that it doesn't matter where the gate is, as long as it's near a planet, it should work, regardless of what PoO is on it. Therefore, moving the Vorash stargate to a different planet without a stargate should work, regardless of the PoO. As soon as you dial another stargate, I'm guessing the recently moved DHD will update itself with the DHD on the recieveing end, giving its new address out and and allowing for "stellar drift" compensation.

_Owen_
July 22nd, 2005, 11:10 AM
You see the point of origin is a unique thing, theoretically, you should be able to put the gate anywhere and have the point of origin work, even in space. The point of origin by definition is a point, which by definition takes up no area and no volume. The point of origin is just a theoretical, invisible point, posibily situated in the middle of the stargate, or even in the ring. The point it is just a guide so the Stargate knows where to generate the first end of the wormhole, it is generated near the point of orign, assuming that the point of origin is near the gate, the wormhole will be attracted to it, and connect to the Stargate.

Seeing as the point of origin is just a point, it will be constantly changing, while a planet orbits around its' companion star, or stars. The only reason that theoretically a point of origin should become invalid is if the time between the moment the point of origin symbol is entered and the actuall point of origin is registered with the Stargate, is large enough to cause the Stargate to move significantly away from the point so the wormhole has nothing to be attracted to, or at least that that Stargate would not attract it.

One other problem may be hyperspace dialing, or dialing in space, first let's concentrate on dialing in hyperspace. Ok, theoretically, dialing in hyperspace could be possible. I am not going to say that it is or it isn't because there is more than one variable that we cannot know. The first thing that we cannot know, seeing as hyperspace is another layer of the universe, we don't know if the wormhole would be able to connect into it. However it is entirely possible, that is why I said, it may be a problem. The second is the speed. Theoretically, if you are occuping a layer of hyperspace at which you can travel at what we would consider sub-light speeds, relative to the distance traveled divided by the time elapsed in our little layer of the universe which we like to call space, and theoretically, you could also dial while in transit outside of hyperspace, but I will get to that later. We might be able to connect in such a layer of hyperspace because the point of origin had not yet moved far enough away from us. The point of origin would obviously be located at our position in regular space, than the wormhole may be able to break through the fabric of space time and connect with our gate. Assuming the wormhole was capable of inter layer travel into hyperspace, and you were traveling at sublight speeds relative to our space, you would be able to connect.

Now, you may think there is one more variable, perhaps the Stargate must need the location of the gate registered (its' point of origin) when it dials, for some odd reason. Well, this is not a variable, the network would not need to register its' location (through a coorelative update). The reason for this is, that the sending gate is the only one that needs to know anyting, the recieving gate does not. And seeing that the point of origin is always changing, because a planet is always moving, therefore the gate is always moving, you shouldn't need to because theoreatically if you were to need a coorelative update, you would need several automatic ones every second, or billions of forced coorelative updates (like those when a stargate is moved to a new planet to register its' location with the other DHDs) every minute at least while people all around the universe dial Stargates.

Now, looking at the previous information dialing from a fixed position, or even while in motion in regular space should be relativly simple, just dial. At a relativley fixed position, the point of origin would be completley valid, and the gate would have no problem dialing. While in motion should also be no problem provided that you are moving slow enough, so the point of origin will still be near you when you move your hand from its' symbol to the big red button on the DHD which should be a very short period of time.

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
July 24th, 2005, 09:17 AM
Why does dialing to another galaxy take more power? How about this speculation?

Assume that wormholes between points within the same spatial structure require the same amount of power. This seems reasonable to me. Why should it take more power to establish a wormhole further away? The wormholes exist such that distance seems to be equal.

In real life astrophysics there is some question whether the distribution of matter in the universe (the distribution being inhomogeneous) is a reflection of some sort of inhomogeneity in the structure of the universe.

Thus my speculation is that within the Milky Way (within all galaxies) the structure of space is homogenous, and that within those confines to establish a stargate wormhole, requires a relatively constant, relatively small amount of power. However, to establish a wormhole outside of this area of local homogeneity requires a great deal more power dependent on the inhomogeneities crossed.

This could lead to further speculation. Perhaps it might be easier to get to some far off points than others based on the intervening spatial structure. Maybe there could be some points in space that are essentially impossible to gate to based upon the surrounding structure.

Even further we could speculate that a sufficiently advanced culture could alter these spatial structures to their advantage.

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Well, we can't exclude that, but seeing as the amount of knowledge that we actually posses on wormholes is extremley limited, we can't really say yes or know, however, it is some nice speculation.

Within the Stargate universe the reason that the eight chevron lock requires more power is because the wormhole needs to be longer. Now, if you are going to think "normally," then yes, this would work, of cousre, each regular dial would require more power, but nothing significant. Each intergalactic dial, the wormhole would have to span the large voids between galaxies, which logically seems sound. So if the wormhole was simply to span space, this theory would take precidence, but it seems far to easy, and normal, I don't really like normal, somethings that are normal are ok, but others, far-fetched is the thing for me, wierd even.

Owen Macri

Gate Gal 1984
July 24th, 2005, 09:02 PM
I have to agree with Briguy213, thats the way to think about it.

The stargate normally dials to other gates within our galaxy but the 8th chevron makes the wormhole go further, in other words if you wanna leave the good ole swirly Milky Way Galaxy you would have to dial an extra chevron to get out.

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 09:21 PM
Yes, like if you are tossing a ball around inside your bedroom, uless you are really rich (if you are p.m. me I want to be friends with you! lol, just kidding anyone P.M. me I want to be friends with all of you!) you can probably throw the ball anywhere, however if you go out into a really big field and try to hit a car a mile away, you are going to need significantly more power in your throw than while tossing it in your room.

Owen Macri

briguy213
July 24th, 2005, 09:28 PM
What you are saying is that if you want to run a mile it takes more energy to walk a step. I dont think the stargate works like that. I dont know how it doesnt... But im ired so let me sleep on this one. I will think of something.

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 09:31 PM
No, I am more saying, if you walk anywhere within ten meters, you aren't going to get very tired but if you sprint two hundred meters, you probably will be a bit tired by the end.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
August 2nd, 2005, 12:16 AM
To you it seems impossible because you did not understand it. I can tell because of what you posted in reply.

This is the series of event:

1) chevron 1 locked on Gate A
2) chevron 2 locked on Gate A
3) chevron 3 locked on Gate A
4) chevron 4 locked on Gate A
5) chevron 5 locked on Gate A
6) chevron 6 locked on Gate A
7) Point of origin and chevron seven locked on Gate A
8) chevrons eight and nine light up
9) wormhole is established and directed to input coordinates
10) if useable gate is found wormhole will connect
11) all nine chevrons light up on Gate B simultaneously as well both event horizons and vortexes are generated on both gates simultaneously
12) connection fully established

The wormhole may be established, Gate B does not need coordinates, Gate B does not need to know anything, it needs to know that a incoming wormhole has been esstablished and that it must open a recieveing event horizon and prepare for transfer.

The wormhole can be directed at Gate B using the information input into Gate A, Gate B just needs to light up and do what I said before. Therefore it is not logically unsound because the establishment of a wormhole does not require transmission of coordinates.

No, when something on the show seem incredibly implausible, difficult to achieve and not neccesary, but also not impossible, and I come up with a more plausible theory, that can explain an aspect of the show, and only a few scences of lights glowing prevent this theory, then I say, allthough the other theory is still possible, this is more likley, and being a television show, with humans at the controls, humans who can make mistakes and or not fully think things through it is still very possible that my theory is correct. Especially seeing as the recieveing gate does not need to know the coordinates dialed, yet, the only thing fully preventing my theory from taking precidence over yours is that, and a few scences.

The alternative is that the signals could be sent through the subspace which you say does not exist, so this cannot be part of your theory, otherwise you will be contradicting your self. Or the Stargate could bend space to send the signals, but then it would completley defeat the point of sending the signals in the first place to establish the wormhole.

Occam's Razor: one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

Allthough I don't believe in this and I believe some time more complicated is better, in this case it applies because your theory requires excess assumptions to be made which then allows it to disprove itself. For your theory to work, the signal would have to travel faster than the speed of light, relativley speaking. We have excluded subspace, because you do not believe it exists, we have excluded folding space because it would defeat the point of establishing a wormhole, in hyperspace the signal would not travel fast enough, because to get there fast enough it would have to reach the maximum level of hyperspace, subspace which you do not believe exists, as well, the gate would need a hyperspace window generator, which it doe not posses. The last idea is the Warp drive or the Alcubierre Drive, we can exlude that unless this signal can carry a warp bubble generator, or unless the stargate itslef posseses one which it doesn't that is able to project a warp bubble light years away, which it cannot.

Now the only thing preventing my theory are a couple of 20 second scenes, and the only thing preventing your theory is Einstein's Theory of Relativity. Tell me which one has more footing?

Owen Macri
To you it seems impossible because you did not understand it. I can tell because of what you posted in reply.

This is the series of event:

1) chevron 1 locked on Gate A
2) chevron 2 locked on Gate A
3) chevron 3 locked on Gate A
4) chevron 4 locked on Gate A
5) chevron 5 locked on Gate A
6) chevron 6 locked on Gate A
7) Point of origin and chevron seven locked on Gate A
8) chevrons eight and nine light up
9) wormhole is established and directed to input coordinates
10) if useable gate is found wormhole will connect
11) all nine chevrons light up on Gate B simultaneously as well both event horizons and vortexes are generated on both gates simultaneously
12) connection fully establishe
First point of order, chevrons eight and nine do not light up. Second point of order,I don't understand? The epitome of irony.

Listen closely. The receiving gate accepts co-ordinates with the same pattern as the dialling one.

Example: Earth dials.
Glyph 1. *12 seconds before next lock* Glyph 2. *17 seconds* Glyph 3. *9 seconds* Glyph 4. *6 seconds* Glyph 5 *22 seconds* Glyph 6 *14 seconds* Glyph 7 *4 seconds*

Assuming a chevron opening and closing takes three seconds the sequence is one hundred and five seconds long. You are proposing that the target gate receives co-ordinate data in one single burst, this is very patently untrue. Glyphs are encoded in the target gates' chevrons with the same delays between each as the Earth gate. Watch Double Jeopardy or New Ground if this is in any way unclear. Forget those two episodes, watch any one where someone is dialling into the SGC. There is a great deal of time between when glyphs start being encoded remotely and when a wormhole is established (enough time to ring the klaxon and usher all those guys with weapons into the gate room so that they can point them at the iris).

Since the target gate receives data with the same delays between each packet as the origin gate is transmitting them, the sequence will, obviously take the same amount of time. If both sequences take the same amount of time (longer than transit time) it is the logical conclusion that both are dialling simultaneously. Check that, it is not only logical, it is also unavoidable.

Since they're dialling in real time every gate that has the same first glyph lights up everywhere in the galaxy at once. They then shut down in turn as the sequence becomes more explicit with further glyphs.

No, when something on the show seem incredibly implausible, difficult to achieve and not neccesary, but also not impossible, and I come up with a more plausible theory, that can explain an aspect of the show, and only a few scences of lights glowing prevent this theory, then I say, allthough the other theory is still possible, this is more likley,
It seems you and I have different definitions of "plausible". In my mind (and, indeed, the rest of the world's) plausible theories account for all the facts. Your theory does not hence it is not plausible in any sense of the word.

"Only a few scenes of glowing lights?" Not only does this betray a startling lack of comprehension of the matter you are debating, but a disdain for the show itself. I ask, exactly how much onscreen evidence is required to deter you? Fact: a single datum of disproof is just as damning as a mountain of it (and by the way, every single episode to date debunks your "theory").

The alternative is that the signals could be sent through the subspace which you say does not exist, so this cannot be part of your theory, otherwise you will be contradicting your self. Or the Stargate could bend space to send the signals, but then it would completley defeat the point of sending the signals in the first place to establish the wormhole.
For crying out loud! I covered this last time, how the data gets to the destination is perfectly immaterial! FACT: Data does preceed the wormhole. Chevrons light up on the target gate minutes before there is a wormhole.

For your theory to work, the signal would have to travel faster than the speed of light, relativley speaking.
Er, we're talking about a device whose expressed purpose is to transmit energy at faster than light speeds. Even the Goa'uld have FTL radios and videophones.

jaden10
August 2nd, 2005, 02:38 AM
Its costs more to dial a long distance phone number...

Did that help?

I would hate paying for that phone bill, and I have unlimited long distance..

jaden10
August 2nd, 2005, 02:54 AM
The most plausable explanation of the power requirements that a gate needs to dial a gate in another Galaxy is this.

(Since I last posted I have been crunching numbers)

The extra power is required to sustain the matter stream (a take from trek) that is enroute to the destination gate.

But there is also this that I thought of.

Watch a gate transport sequence, you notice when the traveler is on route the wormhole hits spots of light? Well think about this, what if the wormhole aquires energy from said light, perhaps a star or a pulsar or another anomoly that we aren't aware of. There wouldn't be a great need for power for the outgoing Stargate, now understand this, from what we know right now the space between galaxies is empty of stars, blackholes, pulsars and other spacial bodies, the outgoing gate would most certainly require more energy to transverse the space between galaxies to make a connection. That right there is the ONLY quantifiable explaination that I can come up with.

While I agree with Occam's Razor on a great many of things, I honestly don't think that applies to this, cause we are dealing with quantum tunneling which is far above and beyond Occam's Razor. He was a midevil philosopher.

And being Occam's Razor was mensioned. I am going to post a URL explaining that man.

But a quick Def on Occam Razor:
It forms the basis of methodological reductionism, also called the principle of parsimony or law of economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor


As in terms of the data burst. I personally belive that the gate DOES receive the data burst. Why? How many gates share the same Glyphs? At least the first 2 or 3, if that was the case that it doesn't then so many gates would start dialing until there is only one that has the exact glyphs that was dialed.
And you also have to remember the gate has huge amounts of memory, so there is no saying that it can't hold all the information for the people going into it until the wormhole is open on the other end, and when it does acknowledge a solid connection then it does send the data to the gate to be rematerialized.

As in terms of the point of origin symbol working anywhere, perhaps, but the only time we saw a gate that didn't lock because of a wrong POO (Point of origin) was on that Goa'uld H'tak that was going to earth to detroy the humans, I personally think that only one gate can work on one planet unless it is reprogrammed..

Lord §okar
August 2nd, 2005, 04:53 AM
The most plausable explanation of the power requirements that a gate needs to dial a gate in another Galaxy is this.
The whole point of a wormhole is that you travel the same distance wherever you're going regardless of the actual separation of the two termini. There's no difference in power requirement due to distance. Furthermore, what matter stream is there to be maintained?

now understand this, from what we know right now the space between galaxies is empty of stars, blackholes, pulsars and other spacial bodies, the outgoing gate would most certainly require more energy to transverse the space between galaxies to make a connection.
I think you may mean "traverse", not "transverse".

While I agree with Occam's Razor on a great many of things, I honestly don't think that applies to this, cause we are dealing with quantum tunneling which is far above and beyond Occam's Razor. He was a midevil philosopher.
Parsimony is all encompassing.

As in terms of the data burst. I personally belive that the gate DOES receive the data burst. Why? How many gates share the same Glyphs? At least the first 2 or 3, if that was the case that it doesn't then so many gates would start dialing until there is only one that has the exact glyphs that was dialed.
And you also have to remember the gate has huge amounts of memory, so there is no saying that it can't hold all the information for the people going into it until the wormhole is open on the other end, and when it does acknowledge a solid connection then it does send the data to the gate to be rematerialized.

As in terms of the point of origin symbol working anywhere, perhaps, but the only time we saw a gate that didn't lock because of a wrong POO (Point of origin) was on that Goa'uld H'tak that was going to earth to detroy the humans, I personally think that only one gate can work on one planet unless it is reprogrammed..
Oh please just read my post again. While it may very well be able to hold lots of data there is no wait period. One can step right into a newly formed wormhole without having to wait for the destination to complete the dialling sequence just as the origin gate did. They dial in real time and it's by a process of elimination with each subsequent glyph.

It didn't work while the ship was in hyperspace, as soon as they decanted back to realspace the gate was fully functional.

jaden10
August 2nd, 2005, 12:12 PM
And I assume your a expert in wormhole mechanics? Or even so much as someone with a PhD in Quantum Theory?
If you are a expert in wormhole mechanics please let me know where you went to school and experienced your wormhole travels, I want to sign up.

_Owen_
August 2nd, 2005, 01:34 PM
First point of order, chevrons eight and nine do not light up. Second point of order,I don't understand? The epitome of irony.

Ok, they may not but we have seen cases where they do, so you can't say that they don't. I will try to explain later in my post.


You are proposing that the target gate receives co-ordinate data in one single burst, this is very patently untrue.

No, I am proposing that no co-ordinate data is sent, it is not required, the wormhole simply needs to connect to the target gate, the target gate does not need to know where the sending gate is located, nor does it need to know where it is located, it simply needs to attract and lock onto the wormhole, and rematerialize energy according to information regarding the original matter which is sent.


For crying out loud! I covered this last time, how the data gets to the destination is perfectly immaterial! FACT: Data does preceed the wormhole. Chevrons light up on the target gate minutes before there is a wormhole.

No, I am sorry, this is a very important part, because the coordinates must be transmitted at speeds faster than light.


Er, we're talking about a device whose expressed purpose is to transmit energy at faster than light speeds. Even the Goa'uld have FTL radios and videophones.

Lord Sokar, this is not a comment that I would expect from you, I have read your other posts, which seem very intelligent, and no offence, but this? (This is not an insult, I am just suprised)

The Stargate only transmits energy faster than the speed of light relative to our space time, in truth the energy traveling at sub light speeds, but inside a wormhole, without the wormhole established it could not send data faster than the speed of light relative to our space time.


Lastly, (IMPORTANT PLEASE READ) The Stargate could absolutly not transmit every single piece of data as it is dialed, seening as the gate would not know where to send it, see, the gate will only have a full adress, once the first six symbols are dialed, until then the gate cannot find a position, it simply has points. And even with the six symbols it would not be able to send the information because it does not have the seventh symbol, because the gate will not know where to send it, it needs to plot a course, it may have an exact location of a Stargate (which it doesn't anyways) but won't be able to send it because it does not have a point of orign, a course absolutly cannot be plotted, then the wormhole is already established.

Very lastly, there is no point, the recieving gate doesn't need to know anything, all it needs to do is hold a connection and rematerialize matter.

Owen Macri

jaden10
August 2nd, 2005, 03:40 PM
Owen, all I am going to say is this
THANK YOU!

_Owen_
August 2nd, 2005, 07:02 PM
Oh, lol. No thank YOU! But you are quite welcome. I have been arguing this point for a while.

Owen Macri

lethalfang
August 2nd, 2005, 07:24 PM
IF the gate works by bending space, shouldn't it take less power to dial a gate further a way?

If you take a really small piece of metal sheet, and try bend the two ends to touch, it is a lot harder then if you have a longer peice, or a really long peice. Shouldn't the same go for the gate?
Or if you consider linear polymer physics.
The longer the polymer is, the more entropic cost you have to pay to bring the 2 ends together.

_Owen_
August 2nd, 2005, 07:28 PM
That is a good point but I don't think it would really apply incredibly to this situation seeing as the Stargate does use wormholes, and doesn't bend space.

Owen Macri

jaden10
August 2nd, 2005, 11:06 PM
This just may start another heated arguement, but I am going to risk it.

I think it is safe to say that we have no plausable solution as to how the gate system works. It may work how we have said, but there is a very strong chance that it works in way we can't comprehend.

But there is one thing that I am most certain on.

IT DOES NOT BEND SPACE AT ALL! IF IT DID, THE GRAVITY WELL WOULD CRUSH ALL MATTER!!!!!

Now is that clear enough?

Lord §okar
August 3rd, 2005, 01:32 AM
The Stargate only transmits energy faster than the speed of light relative to our space time, in truth the energy traveling at sub light speeds, but inside a wormhole, without the wormhole established it could not send data faster than the speed of light relative to our space time.
Nononono, you're still failing to grasp the point, it doesn't matter what you think it cannot do, it DOES send data before the wormhole. Forget that it's not needed (or so you think), forget that you think it has no way to travel faster than light (or so you think), it obviously does, there is no escaping this you can see it with every. single. dialling sequence.

No, I am sorry, this is a very important part, because the coordinates must be transmitted at speeds faster than light.
AND? Yes, they have to be transmitted faster than light, so? The Goa'uld can send fullscreen video and audio without making a wormhole, a point I raised in my last post also. Not only is it immaterial how the data get to the target gate before the wormhole (because we can see quit clearly that it does) but we already know that the Goa'uld can send data at FTL speeds at a faster rate.

Lastly, (IMPORTANT PLEASE READ) The Stargate could absolutly not transmit every single piece of data as it is dialed, seening as the gate would not know where to send it, see, the gate will only have a full adress, once the first six symbols are dialed, until then the gate cannot find a position, it simply has points. And even with the six symbols it would not be able to send the information because it does not have the seventh symbol, because the gate will not know where to send it, it needs to plot a course, it may have an exact location of a Stargate (which it doesn't anyways) but won't be able to send it because it does not have a point of orign, a course absolutly cannot be plotted, then the wormhole is already established.
Oh my god, why are we still arguing this? When it has a first symbol it activates ALL gates with that first symbol, either that or it transmits a ping to the entire galaxy and only gates with that first symbol return a "pong". Same with the second, third, fourth, et al.

The Stargate only transmits energy faster than the speed of light relative to our space time, in truth the energy traveling at sub light speeds, but inside a wormhole, without the wormhole established it could not send data faster than the speed of light relative to our space time.
And the point would be? The applicability to my statement would be?

And I assume your a expert in wormhole mechanics? Or even so much as someone with a PhD in Quantum Theory?
If you are a expert in wormhole mechanics please let me know where you went to school and experienced your wormhole travels, I want to sign up.
Said one sci-fi message board user to another. Since you inquired as to my credentials I'll describe them: NIL. I'm a first year physics student at Australias Go8 University of Queensland. I'm not even interested as to yours because no scientist would be write a reply that consists of a challenge of anothers qualifications. On the internet all we have to go by is the content of our messages, it would be grave error in judgement if you think I'm simply going to bow out of an argument because of your (unverifiable) credentials and ad hominem approach to debating.

FYI: No-one's either interested or intimidated by your education, irrespective of its verity (I'll be researching, though), to apply a phrase eemployed by Mr Wong is exactly this situation, "You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?"

Very lastly, there is no point, the recieving gate doesn't need to know anything, all it needs to do is hold a connection and rematerialize matter.
Granted, still irrelevant, something is transmitted.

Owen, all I am going to say is this
THANK YOU!
Owens messages have substance, yours was just posturing; throwing the weight of your alleged PhD around.

jaden10
August 3rd, 2005, 02:08 AM
I have come to a conclusion, these attacks that I am getting is only proof of 2 things:
1.That my "Alleged" PhD is a threat to some of you.
2.That you feel the need to attack me because of some maturity problem.

Well let me fill everyone in on a little secret. I DO NOT CARE what anyone thinks, if it makes you feel more secure by throwing attacks my way, go for it. It is only proving that you have a maturity problem and that you can't even grasp what basic respect is. So go on feeling inferior and trying to attack me with your poor attempts at insults.

Just proves how stupid you truly are.

Oh and BTW your ideas of wormhole travel are quite funny, you have no concept of space time, you have no concept of what gravity can do to matter, you have no concept of physics, it's very amusing. And it's pretty sad when a 14 year old Canadian boy has more understanding of the finer workings of physics, FTL, wormholes, compression and respect, and you people who are attacking me consider yourself educated adults. HA!

So continue your attacks, I need all the laughs I can get nowadays.



And for the attackers who don't understand what I mean, This should help.

Piss off.

Lord §okar
August 3rd, 2005, 02:22 AM
You mean when you claimed to hold PhDs in "quantum physics/mechanics" and "theoretical quantum physics" you expected everyone to believe you?

Your continuous ad hominem fallacies are now just pointless because in the very same post you're responding to I clearly stated that doctorate(s) or not, I want to debate you in earnest, which, from what I can tell, is exactly what you say you wanted.

Well let me fill everyone in on a little secret. I DO NOT CARE what anyone thinks, if it makes you feel more secure by throwing attacks my way,
Point out a single attack I made and win a shirt that says, "I employ ad homien fallacies and I vote!"

Oh and BTW your ideas of wormhole travel are quite funny, you have no concept of space time, you have no concept of what gravity can do to matter, you have no concept of physics, it's very amusing.
Amazing, you can get all that information about what I do and do not know from a post that doesn't actually contain any scientific data at all. Did you hone that skill during your first or your second PhD?

And it's pretty sad when a 14 year old Canadian boy has more understanding of the finer workings of physics, FTL, wormholes, compression and respect, and you people who are attacking me consider yourself educated adults. HA!
Oh no, my ego! http://www.gaters.net/images/smilies/doc.gif

And for the attackers who don't understand what I mean, This should help.

Piss off.
Cliffs Notes: Previous Post

Stop challenging my unverifiable vastly superior education, you know nothing about topics that weren't even mentioned, watch was I insult your intelligence, piss off.

To think I almost cracked my knuckles. Oh well.

Well let me fill everyone in on a little secret. I DO NOT CARE what anyone thinks, if it makes you feel more secure by throwing attacks my way, go for it.
It doesn't really, I just like watching you squirm at the thought of actually having to dabate someone without your escape card.

jaden10
August 3rd, 2005, 02:56 AM
Well aside from spelling errors (Which if you knew me personally that has always been a short coming on my side) everything I have said is in my honest opinion the best answer that I can give, if you feel that I don't know what I am talking about because of a lack of "Scientific date" in my posts, so be it, I don't find it necessary to turn this into a class room and bore you all with equations, it's not my thing. I have offered up papers on other subjects that I have written with all the equations that you can take. But being my lack of "scientific data" isn't enough for you, so be it. But there is one thing, except for my papers which are all Theoretical, there is absolutly no hard proof of anything discussed in this thread, and I feel that posting theoretical scientific data is rather difficult being I have never gone into any study (personally that is) that can explain wormholes, all the info I have on it, has been done by other people in this field, and just like my paper on Teleportation physics, it is theoretical..

. As for "a debate you in earnest" that is called sarcasim.

So to end this lovely post, say what you want, feel what you want, just like my posts are to you, your posts to me are meaningless, so continue doing what you want, and I shall do the same.

Disect my posts all you want, this will be the last time I try to defend myself against people who are convinced that my background isn't what I say it is. And while I am on that little subject, there is no proof of ANYONES background on this site, so what you and everyone else is saying should be taken with a grain of salt, Do I know what fields of science you have studied? No. and that is true all over this board, so while it is true you have no "proof" of my PhD's, I neither have proof of your knowledge is gained by whatever means you have used to get it.

ta,ta

Lord §okar
August 3rd, 2005, 03:12 AM
I have said is in my honest opinion the best answer that I can give, if you feel that I don't know what I am talking about because of a lack of "Scientific date" in my posts, so be it, I don't find it necessary to turn this into a class room and bore you all with equations, it's not my thing. I have offered up papers on other subjects that I have written with all the equations that you can take.
Ok, I'll just get this out in the open: opinions are worthless.

I don't find it necessary to turn this into a class room and bore you all with equations, it's not my thing. I have offered up papers on other subjects that I have written with all the equations that you can take.
Thank you so much for protecting me from your barrage of mathematics. Please bombard me with "all the equations I can take" (aren't you a presumptuous one then?) so I can see what you're thinking.


BTW, why don't you first define a topic because last I checked, you have never replied to anything I've said. Evasion?

But being my lack of "scientific data" isn't enough for you, so be it.
Er, perhaps you never did very well in english, I was ridiculing your claim that I know nothing about topics that weren't even raised giving you absolutely no insight as to what I know and what I don't (I'm beginning to get a pretty good one into what you don't know, though).

As for "a debate you in earnest" that is called sarcasim.
No it's not.

just like my posts are to you, your posts to me are meaningless,
Do you really think you're fooling anyone?

Why should I have a battle of the wits with a unarmed person.
Oh please, if you weren't such a ripe target I go beat my drum kit rather than you. Don't you have any other line aside from ^^ that?

I refuse to have a battle of the wits with a unarmed person.. Thank you and good night.

Speaking of witless, this is pure irony.

I have offered up papers on other subjects that I have written
No you haven't. Where were you published, again?

But there is one thing, except for my papers which are all Theoretical, there is absolutly no hard proof of anything discussed in this thread, and I feel that posting theoretical scientific data is rather difficult being I have never gone into any study (personally that is) that can explain wormholes, all the info I have on it, has been done by other people in this field, and just like my paper on Teleportation physics, it is theoretical..
There's no physics here whatsoever, it's about the stargate!

there is no proof of ANYONES background on this site,
We don't need proof of our educations, we demonstrate it.

I neither have proof of your knowledge is gained by whatever means you have used to get it.
No, but I'd love to prove it to you, why not debate me on any topic you may raise?

Disect my posts all you want, this will be the last time I try to defend myself against people who are convinced that my background isn't what I say it is.
Makes sense, if you haven't got a leg to stand on you don't try to walk. I'll make this simple, fight me, or are your PhDs running away from an undergrad?

Three PhDs
August 3rd, 2005, 03:26 AM
Hi. How's everyone doing?

Lord §okar
August 3rd, 2005, 05:52 PM
Why, hello there perfectly anonymous fellow internet forum denizen.

_Owen_
August 3rd, 2005, 07:29 PM
I want to ask you a simple question, both of you. What is wrong with you, why do you need to attack jaden10? What does his education, have to do with your life or anything else? I can see now that Three PhDs is not alone in his argument. Do both of you for some reason feel the need to mindlessly attack another forum member, what gives you the right, what makes you think that you have the right? Please, Lord Sokar, we have already done this once before on another subject. Please read the forum rules, what you are doing, attacking fellow forum members, is against them, if you don't like it, leave there are plenty of other forums that don't care GateWorld is not one of them. Lord Sokar, you have posted some very intelligent things, I would not want you to leave, but if you continue like this, I would like you to.

What you are doing is ruining the forum, I have said it before and I am saying it again. STOP NOW.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
August 3rd, 2005, 08:48 PM
I only started "attacking" jaden in response to his belligerence, and his belligerence only started when I started asking perfectly innocent questions about his fabricated yet much ballyhooed history. He was asking to be shown the door and gosh darn it, I did.

As a point of note there's an easy way to determine if someone actually does know what they're talking about: they demonstrate it and don't use their qualifications in ad hominem attacks. Which leads me to my second point, how to spot someone who actually does have a PhD: they don't flaunt it. All my lecturers are doctors and they insist on being called by their first names or even nicknames. They don't even put their title on the course profile sometimes. They prove their points with logic and application os scientific principles not "I'm a doctor, you're not, so there."

what you are doing, attacking fellow forum members
And at risk of sounding juvenile, he started it.

Now, there's a topic in here somewhere that's been neglected for some time, are you going to reprise it?

_Owen_
August 3rd, 2005, 08:55 PM
It doesn't matter why you started attacking him, you CANNOT, do you understand, CANNOT under any circumstances attack another member of the forum, it doesn't matter who started what, you CANNOT.

As for the topic, yes I would like to discuss it but perhaps we should start fresh now.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
August 3rd, 2005, 08:58 PM
I can, and will, when I am attacked first. You are not a moderator, you are not a watchdog, stop acting like one.

As for the topic, yes I would like to discuss it but perhaps we should start fresh now.
I disagree, I've replied to your post, it's up there somewhere (it's from that post that jaden fired his initial salvo).

_Owen_
August 3rd, 2005, 09:13 PM
I know I am not a moderator, but I am a user that knows the rules, and I know when you are breaking them, I am just suggesting that you stop because, well when it comes down to it, it isn't very nice, nor required, nor gentelmanly.

Ok, well I just thought if we started fresh it might be easier with all of the posts in between it makes it confusing. But whatever you would like. Unfortunatly I am going to bed now, because it is past midnight here, I am already really tired from the stuff that I did today, and have to wake up in the early tommorow, so see you later.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
August 12th, 2005, 11:06 PM
Ok, from where we left off:


To you it seems impossible because you did not understand it. I can tell because of what you posted in reply.

This is the series of event:

1) chevron 1 locked on Gate A
2) chevron 2 locked on Gate A
3) chevron 3 locked on Gate A
4) chevron 4 locked on Gate A
5) chevron 5 locked on Gate A
6) chevron 6 locked on Gate A
7) Point of origin and chevron seven locked on Gate A
8) chevrons eight and nine light up
9) wormhole is established and directed to input coordinates
10) if useable gate is found wormhole will connect
11) all nine chevrons light up on Gate B simultaneously as well both event horizons and vortexes are generated on both gates simultaneously
12) connection fully establishe
First point of order, chevrons eight and nine do not light up. Second point of order,I don't understand? The epitome of irony.

Listen closely. The receiving gate accepts co-ordinates with the same pattern as the dialling one.

Example: Earth dials.
Glyph 1. *12 seconds before next lock* Glyph 2. *17 seconds* Glyph 3. *9 seconds* Glyph 4. *6 seconds* Glyph 5 *22 seconds* Glyph 6 *14 seconds* Glyph 7 *4 seconds*

Assuming a chevron opening and closing takes three seconds the sequence is one hundred and five seconds long. You are proposing that the target gate receives co-ordinate data in one single burst, this is very patently untrue. Glyphs are encoded in the target gates' chevrons with the same delays between each as the Earth gate. Watch Double Jeopardy or New Ground if this is in any way unclear. Forget those two episodes, watch any one where someone is dialling into the SGC. There is a great deal of time between when glyphs start being encoded remotely and when a wormhole is established (enough time to ring the klaxon and usher all those guys with weapons into the gate room so that they can point them at the iris).

Since the target gate receives data with the same delays between each packet as the origin gate is transmitting them, the sequence will, obviously take the same amount of time. If both sequences take the same amount of time (longer than transit time) it is the logical conclusion that both are dialling simultaneously. Check that, it is not only logical, it is also unavoidable.

Since they're dialling in real time every gate that has the same first glyph lights up everywhere in the galaxy at once. They then shut down in turn as the sequence becomes more explicit with further glyphs.

No, when something on the show seem incredibly implausible, difficult to achieve and not neccesary, but also not impossible, and I come up with a more plausible theory, that can explain an aspect of the show, and only a few scences of lights glowing prevent this theory, then I say, allthough the other theory is still possible, this is more likley,
It seems you and I have different definitions of "plausible". In my mind (and, indeed, the rest of the world's) plausible theories account for all the facts. Your theory does not hence it is not plausible in any sense of the word.

"Only a few scenes of glowing lights?" Not only does this betray a startling lack of comprehension of the matter you are debating, but a disdain for the show itself. I ask, exactly how much onscreen evidence is required to deter you? Fact: a single datum of disproof is just as damning as a mountain of it (and by the way, every single episode to date debunks your "theory").

The alternative is that the signals could be sent through the subspace which you say does not exist, so this cannot be part of your theory, otherwise you will be contradicting your self. Or the Stargate could bend space to send the signals, but then it would completley defeat the point of sending the signals in the first place to establish the wormhole.
For crying out loud! I covered this last time, how the data gets to the destination is perfectly immaterial! FACT: Data does preceed the wormhole. Chevrons light up on the target gate minutes before there is a wormhole.

For your theory to work, the signal would have to travel faster than the speed of light, relativley speaking.
Er, we're talking about a device whose expressed purpose is to transmit energy at faster than light speeds. Even the Goa'uld have FTL radios and videophones.

_Owen_
August 12th, 2005, 11:08 PM
For crying out loud! I covered this last time, how the data gets to the destination is perfectly immaterial! FACT: Data does preceed the wormhole. Chevrons light up on the target gate minutes before there is a wormhole.


Actually, it is very relevant, becuase the data, simply cannot get there without breaking the laws of physics or violating occums razor. And it is no fact it is your oppinion.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
August 12th, 2005, 11:12 PM
Actually, it is very relevant, becuase the data, simply cannot get there without breaking the laws of physics or violating occums razor. And it is no fact it is your oppinion.
No, Owen, it is a fact. Chevrons on the destination gate light up way before the wormhole forms, ergo there is data exchanged between the two gates, faster than light, without the aid of a wormhole. Parsimony is not applicable here because there is no valid competing theory and how "the laws of physics" a constraint? The Goa'uld have hand held balls capable of sending video and audio in real time over vast interplanetary distances without any trace of latency.

_Owen_
August 12th, 2005, 11:15 PM
There is no evidence of that. And it is impossible seeing as the dialling gate doesn't even have a destination to send the information to, until the sixth symbol is dialed, and it can't plot a course until the seventh symbol is dialed, then if the gate is open the wormhole forms anyways.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
August 12th, 2005, 11:21 PM
There is no evidence of that.
No evidence of what, that data preceeds the wormhole? There is ample, 100% incontrivertible proof that data preceeds the wormhole. It's in every single episode where someone dials a stargate. The first chevron engages at the receiving end even minutes before the wormhole has formed.

as the dialling gate doesn't even have a destination to send the information to, until the sixth symbol is dialed, and it can't plot a course until the seventh symbol is dialed, then if the gate is open the wormhole forms anyways.
That's right, your theory doesn't work. The only explanation that does work is mine. When you dial an address starting with, say, serpens caput, the dialling gate communicates with every other gate in the galaxy at FTL speeds and all the gate whose address begins with serpents caput activate. When the next glyph is dialled, leo minor, perhaps, the massive amount of stargates that were active are now limited only to the ones whose address is serpens caput and then leo minor, and the rest shut down.

Three PhDs
August 13th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Owen, have you for a second considered that in a dimension other than the four we are used to experiencing, the gates aren't actually that far apart?

_Owen_
August 15th, 2005, 10:26 PM
Yes, however, that has absolutley nothing to do with anything. When you dial the first chevron, it cannot send this information to the recieving Stargate, because it does not know what the recieving Stargate is yet, or for that matter, how to get there.

Owen Macri

mightydefiant
August 15th, 2005, 11:37 PM
Yes, however, that has absolutley nothing to do with anything. When you dial the first chevron, it cannot send this information to the recieving Stargate, because it does not know what the recieving Stargate is yet, or for that matter, how to get there.

Owen Macri
This bugs me, how would the receving gate get only 1 chevron at a time? If the gate did send the chevrons one by one, then every gate with the frist chevron would glow, then at number 2, all gates that have those 2 would glow, but the ones with only 1 would will stop.

Lord §okar
August 15th, 2005, 11:56 PM
Yes, however, that has absolutley nothing to do with anything. When you dial the first chevron, it cannot send this information to the recieving Stargate, because it does not know what the recieving Stargate is yet, or for that matter, how to get there.
For god sake! Listen closely: dialling occurrs in real time, there is quite undeniably data sent far before the wormhole even establishes, ergo the dialling occurrs by a process of elimination. You have sidestepped engaging this issue with every post so I will say this once and for all:

You are pointing out flaws in your own theory! It is wrong.


There is ample, 100% incontrivertible proof that data preceeds the wormhole. It's in every single episode where someone dials a stargate. The first chevron engages at the receiving end even minutes before the wormhole has formed.

The only explanation that does work is mine. When you dial an address starting with, say, serpens caput, the dialling gate communicates with every other gate in the galaxy at FTL speeds and all the gate whose address begins with serpents caput activate. When the next glyph is dialled, leo minor, perhaps, the massive amount of stargates that were active are now limited only to the ones whose address is serpens caput and then leo minor, and the rest shut down.

_Owen_
August 16th, 2005, 12:03 AM
That is a very big assumption, as well as an incorrect one. The first chevron could not be locked on any gate as it is dialed, let alone all of the gates with the first chevron, because there is absolutley no way for the signal to get to the gates. This is so because neither coordinates to any of the gates, nor a point of origin, to allow the ploting of a course have been input yet. The gate simply has the information for one chevron, which alone, means squat! Even with the second, third, fourth, and fifth chevron, it, and or they, all mean absolutly nothing, they are points in space, they are not coordinates, without the sixth symbol, you will not have coordinates to a Stargate, and without the seventh symbol you will not be able to plot a course to the Stargates.

It doesn't matter whether you would like all of the gates in the universe to light up with the first chevron is dialed, it will not happen, because with the current configuration of the Stargate it is physically impossible.

Owen Macri

mightydefiant
August 16th, 2005, 12:16 AM
I know that the all the gates cannot get the single at once, but when the receving gate lights up one at a time, it does seem to send only parts. And that bugs me as it cannot happen.

Lord §okar
August 16th, 2005, 01:11 AM
That is a very big assumption, as well as an incorrect one. The first chevron could not be locked on any gate as it is dialed, let alone all of the gates with the first chevron, because there is absolutley no way for the signal to get to the gates. This is so because neither coordinates to any of the gates, nor a point of origin, to allow the ploting of a course have been input yet.
Put your mind to this.

IT IS NOT AN ASSUMPTION. It is a FACT that chevrons are locked before the wormhole. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? This is not an interpretation, this is gleaned directly from the show, ther eis no getting around this.

GIVEN THIS KNOWLEDGE now understand that the co-ordinates of any ONE gate are not required since the signal is broadcasted TO ALL OF THEM. ALL of the gates with the first same first symbol light up when that symbol is dialled. When the second symbol is dialled, ALL the gates with that second symbol stay lit and the rest shut down. A SPECIFIC TARGET IS NOT REQUIRED since data processing occurrs in the rest of the gate network. When the sequence is complete the origin gate and the one remaining target form a wormhole.

Dialling is by a process of elimination. By the end of the sequence, there will only be one gate that responds to whole sequence of 6 glyphs. THIS IS THE ONLY EXPLANATION THAT ACCOUNTS FOR THE PHENOMENA.

This is the trillionth time I have explained this and you still have not yet comprehended it. Before you reply, with any kind of response like "but the gate doesn't know where the signal has to go to until the serquence is complete" go back and read this post again. Every time you come up with an objection read this post again because it will be answered, as it has been every time now.

mightydefiant
August 16th, 2005, 01:35 AM
GIVEN THIS KNOWLEDGE now understand that the co-ordinates of any ONE gate are not required since the signal is broadcasted TO ALL OF THEM. ALL of the gates with the first same first symbol light up when that symbol is dialled. When the second symbol is dialled, ALL the gates with that second symbol stay lit and the rest shut down. A SPECIFIC TARGET IS NOT REQUIRED since data processing occurrs in the rest of the gate network. When the sequence is complete the origin gate and the one remaining target form a wormhole.

That seems dumb that all gates get the single. How much power would it take to send the data to all the gates every time you dail a gate. What would the people on another planet think when the gate started to light up, then stops.


This is the trillionth time I have explained this and you still have not yet comprehended it. Before you reply, with any kind of response like "but the gate doesn't know where the signal has to go to until the serquence is complete" go back and read this post again. Every time you come up with an objection read this post again because it will be answered, as it has been every time now.

Is this to me? Because I have only mention about 2 times, not trillionth times as you say. Both times I said how it bugs me, as I don't think that it would really do that, I'm not argueing about weather or not it does in the show.

Lord §okar
August 16th, 2005, 02:13 AM
How much power would it take to send the data to all the gates every time you dail a gate.
Irrelevant.

What would the people on another planet think when the gate started to light up, then stops.
Irrelevant.

Is this to me?
I thought the fact that I quoted Owens' post may have obviated that question but I guess I was wrong.

I was talking to Owen.

~Thor~
August 16th, 2005, 02:14 AM
Who cares? Well obviously he cares other wise he wouldn't have asked.

Lord §okar
August 16th, 2005, 02:15 AM
See edit.

~Thor~
August 16th, 2005, 02:23 AM
Well I wouldn't say its irrelivant. Sending that much data to that many sources would likely (considering the distance) take more energy than the gate can output, if some1 can prove that it requires more energy than the stargate uses then it would definately wouldn't be irellivant. Also, according to your theory, can you explain why 8 chevrons takes more energy, assuming that most of the energy is used by sending the data to all the gates. Although one thing your theory does have is an explaination on how they were able to seemingly easily make the gate dial all gates in the galaxy, as well as multiple shots from the show.

Lord §okar
August 16th, 2005, 02:28 AM
Sending that much data to that many sources would likely (considering the distance) take more energy than the gate can output,
The signal is sent far faster than light meaning it can't possibly traverse that distance and doesn't.

if some1 can prove that it requires more energy than the stargate uses then it would definately wouldn't be irellivant.
In that case I daresay it wouldn't.

Also, according to your theory, can you explain why 8 chevrons takes more energy,
Error control. Many many more gates to eliminate in the new galaxy.

~Thor~
August 16th, 2005, 02:41 AM
[quote]Also, according to your theory, can you explain why 8 chevrons takes more energy,
Error control. Many many more gates to eliminate in the new galaxy.[quote]THats my point, the gate wouldn't know until you have dialed 7 chevrons that you are dialing another galaxy (or not), so it would be sending signals to all those gates already :) try explain that. Same goes for ninth chevron

_Owen_
August 16th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Ok, I understand now, I was under the impression that the Stargate would send each signal directly to each gate, not broadcast it. However if the signal was broadcasted this would change everything we know about the stargate. In addition the Stargate would also have to broadcast the signal throughout (for all we know) the known universe, seeing as there are gates in other galaxies with presumably the same first symbol.

As well, there is no need for the recieving gates to do anything, no need at all, so making the Stargate perform other functions would be a waste of time.

Owen Macri

Three PhDs
August 16th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Yes, however, that has absolutley nothing to do with anything. When you dial the first chevron, it cannot send this information to the recieving Stargate, because it does not know what the recieving Stargate is yet, or for that matter, how to get there.

Owen MacriWell, he didn't actually say that. He said all gates. Broadcast to all gates. Just as would happen to a specific set of computers given a known netmask.


That is a very big assumption, as well as an incorrect one.That we see proven correct numerous times by the show. Accept that fact.


The first chevron could not be locked on any gate as it is dialed, let alone all of the gates with the first chevron, because there is absolutley no way for the signal to get to the gates.Isn't there?


It doesn't matter whether you would like all of the gates in the universe to light up with the first chevron is dialed, it will not happen, because with the current configuration of the Stargate it is physically impossible.Explain to me the current configuration and how it rules out a peer to peer based stargate network.


That seems dumb that all gates get the single. How much power would it take to send the data to all the gates every time you dail a gate.Bit torrent anyone? Think about that.


Well I wouldn't say its irrelivant. Sending that much data to that many sources would likely (considering the distance) take more energy than the gate can output, if some1 can prove that it requires more energy than the stargate uses then it would definately wouldn't be irellivant.As I said to Owen before, you're assuming that in all dimensions of spacetime the gates are far apart from each other. This is not necessarily so, and as I've said before... bit torrent when it comes to the power requirements.


THats my point, the gate wouldn't know until you have dialed 7 chevrons that you are dialing another galaxy (or not), so it would be sending signals to all those gates already :) try explain that. Same goes for ninth chevronUm, what's to explain? As soon as you reach the seventh chevron, the gate realises you're dialling outside the galaxy and then restarts the process of contacting gates but further out. Was that so hard?

_Owen_
August 16th, 2005, 02:17 PM
The current configuration of the Stargate is that things are transmitted between Stargates through womholes, and the locations of Stargates are known by the coordinates input into a stargate, there is no evidence to suggest anything can be "broadcast."

Owen Macri

mightydefiant
August 16th, 2005, 03:23 PM
Bit torrent anyone? Think about that.
Now you got me thinking than when a gate dails, all gates send the chevron data to all the other gates. Now that makes less sence to me. So very helpful.

there is no evidence to suggest anything can be "broadcast."
I argree with you. And why would the gate system broadcast data like that. Now I'm thinking that if someone could tap into this broadcast, they could see where poeple are going, then no planet with a gate could be keeped in secret as the address it just broadcasted to all other gate.

Three PhDs
August 16th, 2005, 03:26 PM
Now you got me thinking than when a gate dails, all gates send the chevron data to all the other gates. Now that makes less sence to me. So very helpful.

I argree with you. And why would the gate system broadcast data like that. Now I'm thinking that if someone could tap into this broadcast, they could see where poeple are going, then no planet with a gate could be keeped in secret as the address it just broadcasted to all other gate.To both parts, we've seen the gates dial each other up for corrective co-ordinates. Ask yourself, in a system with many peers over which a lot of data has to be transmitted, what would make a very efficient model for data transport?

Gargen
August 16th, 2005, 03:29 PM
think of it as an extra direction when driving somewhere but in this case it adds alot of distance and thus gas cause the gap between planets is greater even in sub space

mightydefiant
August 16th, 2005, 03:39 PM
I'm now thinking that we are over thinking a TV show. So I am just going to not talk about this topic any more.

~Thor~
August 16th, 2005, 03:52 PM
Um, what's to explain? As soon as you reach the seventh chevron, the gate realises you're dialling outside the galaxy and then restarts the process of contacting gates but further out. Was that so hard?
Then, it would either have to redial the first 6 chevrons, OR it would have the coordinates and dial 'normally' (ie it has 6 points and it establishes a wormhole like you dial a telephone), but as we all 'know' this doesn't happen.

Gargen
August 16th, 2005, 03:59 PM
I'm now thinking that we are over thinking a TV show. So I am just going to not talk about this topic any more.
isnt that what fan forums are about and its more of a astrophysics thing cause stargate didnt invent this theory its been around for like a hundred years

Three PhDs
August 16th, 2005, 04:46 PM
Then, it would either have to redial the first 6 chevrons, OR it would have the coordinates and dial 'normally' (ie it has 6 points and it establishes a wormhole like you dial a telephone), but as we all 'know' this doesn't happen.No it doesn't. It merely expands the routine further.

Madeleine
August 16th, 2005, 10:32 PM
This is the trillionth time I have explained this and you still have not yet comprehended it. Before you reply, with any kind of response like "but the gate doesn't know where the signal has to go to until the serquence is complete" go back and read this post again. Every time you come up with an objection read this post again because it will be answered, as it has been every time now.

Please could you be a bit less patronising? If you have explained something trillions of times and someone still disagrees, it's worth considering that the fault may lie in your own explanation or that there may be another threory that fits the facts (there is, IMO, and I put it forward earlier in the thread) tather than treating people like naughty schoolchildren.

Thanks.

Three PhDs
August 17th, 2005, 01:51 AM
Please could you be a bit less patronising? If you have explained something trillions of times and someone still disagrees, it's worth considering that the fault may lie in your own explanation or that there may be another threory that fits the facts (there is, IMO, and I put it forward earlier in the thread) tather than treating people like naughty schoolchildren.

Thanks.I agree to an extent, but can see how it would be frustrating for Sokar if he's explained something rather simply which matches what's seen on screen and people still don't agree, even though it's as clear on screen as can possibly be.

Madeleine
August 17th, 2005, 05:07 PM
However frustrating it is to have people disagree with us we all need to remember that that is all it is: people disagreeing with us. Just that. Not people getting it wrong. Because it isn't 'as clear onscreen as can possibly be'; in fact little of the regularly-used tech stuff is because virtually everything is inconsistant or contradicts other examples of onscreen use.

Everything that we theorise based around Stargate tech is just that - theorising. It's supposition and theory and opinion, because we're not in posession of all the facts and because the 'facts' are very fluid indeed from one ep to the next. And if someone disagrees the way to react is not to get cross and impatient and treat them like a schoolchild who can't grasp algebra and tell them to read your post again. Really it isn't!

:rolleyes:

It's not much to ask that people respect the opinions of others.

aAnubiSs
August 17th, 2005, 05:18 PM
I see Sokar and Bose still have problems converting the mass into Stargate science based on real life science :)

Lord §okar
August 17th, 2005, 05:53 PM
What does that mean, and how do you know that name, "Bose"?

aAnubiSs
August 17th, 2005, 06:11 PM
It means what it says :) And I lurk on other forum :)

Lord §okar
August 17th, 2005, 07:34 PM
Oh, right I see now. Sorry, I misread it.

aAnubiSs
August 17th, 2005, 08:02 PM
No problem:)

_Owen_
August 24th, 2005, 11:37 PM
I agree to an extent, but can see how it would be frustrating for Sokar if he's explained something rather simply which matches what's seen on screen and people still don't agree, even though it's as clear on screen as can possibly be.
Yes, but you still have to remember, it may not be as clear to others.

Owen Macri