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Uber
July 3rd, 2005, 10:45 PM
We know from Forever and a Day that one of the ways a ribbon device is powered (or perhaps a better word would be fueled) by the emotion of the one operating the device.

As we've seen on multiple occasions, Goa'uld personal shields (as well as ring transport controllers it seems) are activated from the ribbon device.

Does this mean that the Goa'uld personal shields are also fueled by emotion?

Secondly...can the personal shield defend someone from something non-tangible? For instance, we know it's affective against staffblasts and bullets and not affective against slower moving objects, such as handthrown knives and tranquilizer darts. But what about something like fire or heat or radiation?

Finally...and I'll confess this question's a little silly...the shape of the shield...it appears to be cylindrical. Could that not cause a problem if the attack were coming from above? Can the shape of the protective shield be manipulated to encapsulate the individual instead?

These little things have been driving me nuts for a while and I didn't know who to ask. I'm so glad I ventured over into the tech section!

I bow now to the wisdom of those who understand SG tech more than I and eagerly await your responses...

:cool:

Jprime
July 3rd, 2005, 11:27 PM
I don't think its emotion controlled, the controller just happens to be mounted on the ribbon device. Its a good idea to mount things there, so that you don't have to carry loads of equipment everywhere you go (universal remote concept engineering).

_Owen_
July 4th, 2005, 12:04 AM
Actually, it does seem as though the controls for the devices in question are mounted on the ribbon devices. However this is not the case. The controls are actaully mounted on a gauntlet that extends from the forearm down over the top of the hand. You can see this clearly in the movie, and probably some other episodes as well. The personal shield, would not need to be controled by emotion it would simply need a power source, the Goa'uld hand device is a unique piece of technology. The hand device is controled soley by the mind, if the Goa'uld wants to activate it they will think it and it will happen, it can be intensified or decreased based on the the will of the Goa'uld or user. If they were strongly overcome by anger, it is likley the device would be stronger, compared to a situation where the user is happy. This is why the Goa'uld hand device seems to be controled by emotion, but you are right fueled is a better word, however other devices such as the shield and rings are not.

For starters the ring devices are not of Goa'uld design, the rings are Ancient, the Goa'uld stole them. We know this because the Antarctic base has a ring platform, the Antarctic base was undiscovered by the Goa'uld. The rings would not need to be powered by the mind, they are simply activated, and a pre-written program takes over. The personal shield also is automatic, there is no need for the personal shield to be controlled by or fueled by emotion or the mind, it is simply activated, and then it works.

On the case of whether it protects against fire or radiation. The probable answer is no. The shield will only stop matter that is projected with a large amount of kinetic energy, as well as energy. I highly doubt that the shield would protect against radiation, but fire is a diffrent story, the only thing dangerous about fire is the heat energy that it emits, seeing as the shield will protect against energy, it is logical to assume that it will also protect against heat energy. However this may also, not be the case. The shield will stop fast moving objects, so perhaps it will also only stop fast moving energy, such as a Zat or Staff blast, however seeing as fire moves slower than the two former, in most cases, fire may not be protected against.

However there is one more variable, the shield could be programmed to protect against both fire and radiation, sort of like a bonus, but I doubt they come stardard. Bassically what this post is saying, is, it is possible that the shields could protect against radiation, fire, and etc. however, they may not. The fact is, we don't know, and we won't until they state something specific in either of the shows.

To me, it seems unlikley that they would protect against the two, simply because they probably would not be enccountered that often, as well they would need some type of sensor in the device, to detect the properties of the matter around, at present the shields do not require this, because they will automatically stop anything moving beyond a certain velocity, however they don't require sensors.

Now there are also other Goa'uld shields that do use sensors, and when matter is detected near by, they activate, however if you move fast enough, very, very fast, you can get past the generators, before the information reaches the computer, and the signal sent from the computer telling the shield generators to activate reach the shield generators. These are a cheap way of using shields, instead of leaving all the lights on in your house all of the time, you just turn them on in specific rooms when you require this. It is fine for us to do this, because we have to pay for the electricity, but the only reason a Goa'uld would do this is if they didn't have strong enough power generators.

Owen Macri

Uber
July 4th, 2005, 12:21 AM
Actually, it does seem as though the controls for the devices in question are mounted on the ribbon devices. However this is not the case. The controls are actaully mounted on a gauntlet that extends from the forearm down over the top of the hand. You can see this clearly in the movie, and probably some other episodes as well. The personal shield, would not need to be controled by emotion it would simply need a power source, the Goa'uld hand device is a unique piece of technology. The hand device is controled soley by the mind, if the Goa'uld wants to activate it they will think it and it will happen, it can be intensified or decreased based on the the will of the Goa'uld or user. If they were strongly overcome by anger, it is likley the device would be stronger, compared to a situation where the user is happy. This is why the Goa'uld hand device seems to be controled by emotion, but you are right fueled is a better word, however other devices such as the shield and rings are not.

For starters the ring devices are not of Goa'uld design, the rings are Ancient, the Goa'uld stole them. We know this because the Antarctic base has a ring platform, the Antarctic base was undiscovered by the Goa'uld. The rings would not need to be powered by the mind, they are simply activated, and a pre-written program takes over. The personal shield also is automatic, there is no need for the personal shield to be controlled by or fueled by emotion or the mind, it is simply activated, and then it works.

On the case of whether it protects against fire or radiation. The probable answer is no. The shield will only stop matter that is projected with a large amount of kinetic energy, as well as energy. I highly doubt that the shield would protect against radiation, but fire is a diffrent story, the only thing dangerous about fire is the heat energy that it emits, seeing as the shield will protect against energy, it is logical to assume that it will also protect against heat energy. However this may also, not be the case. The shield will stop fast moving objects, so perhaps it will also only stop fast moving energy, such as a Zat or Staff blast, however seeing as fire moves slower than the two former, in most cases, fire may not be protected against.

However there is one more variable, the shield could be programmed to protect against both fire and radiation, sort of like a bonus, but I doubt they come stardard. Bassically what this post is saying, is, it is possible that the shields could protect against radiation, fire, and etc. however, they may not. The fact is, we don't know, and we won't until they state something specific in either of the shows.

To me, it seems unlikley that they would protect against the two, simply because they probably would not be enccountered that often, as well they would need some type of sensor in the device, to detect the properties of the matter around, at present the shields do not require this, because they will automatically stop anything moving beyond a certain velocity, however they don't require sensors.

Now there are also other Goa'uld shields that do use sensors, and when matter is detected near by, they activate, however if you move fast enough, very, very fast, you can get past the generators, before the information reaches the computer, and the signal sent from the computer telling the shield generators to activate reach the shield generators. These are a cheap way of using shields, instead of leaving all the lights on in your house all of the time, you just turn them on in specific rooms when you require this. It is fine for us to do this, because we have to pay for the electricity, but the only reason a Goa'uld would do this is if they didn't have strong enough power generators.

Owen MacriVery thorough response...I have a few follow up thoughts though...

First...while the Goa'uld did not officially discover the gate in Antarctica, we know from Solitudes and Frozen that there were Jaffa there. Two to be exact. So why were those Jaffa there? I guess that's a question for another thread. :cool:

Second...it makes sense to me that they stole the technology for the ring transports. Being scavengers by nature, they stole pretty much everything they have. I'd be interested to find out from whom they stole the personal shield and even the ribbon device techonology...or at least the concepts for these ideas...kind of like from Heroes, we know they stole the idea of a MALP and from Orpheus and Evolution they stole the idea of a protective barrier like our iris...both from us.

Lastly...I know it seems moderately silly but I imagine there is an answer for the question regarding the shape of the shield...which is cylindrical in nature or at least appears that way in Enemies with Apophis and the replicators. If cylindrical, could not the replicators merely have climbed up and over the top of the barrier? Also...how could the shield generator project a barrier to a prescribed height as opposed as being a constant distance around the entire body? It would seem that it would be more difficult from a science perspective to imagine a cylinder of energy rather than a dome. Does my question make sense to you or am I muddying the waters?

_Owen_
July 4th, 2005, 02:10 PM
There were jaffa near the Antarctic gate, but not the Ancient outpost. The Jaffa were there because one of the system lords, possibly Ra, sent them through after the Antartic gate was lost under the ice, the Jaffa for some reason could not escape.

About the shape of the shield, it is not relevant, the shape of the field could be manipulated, and it doesn't seem that it would be a problem to do this. As for the Replicators, they could simply walk through the Goa'uld shields, seeing as the personal shields, unmodified, would not stop objects with a lower velocity. However, were the shields to be modified to stop all matter and energy, it is likley at the top of the shielded enclosure, the shield would extend to make a "cieling."

Owen Macri

Uber
July 4th, 2005, 08:30 PM
There were jaffa near the Antarctic gate, but not the Ancient outpost. The Jaffa were there because one of the system lords, possibly Ra, sent them through after the Antartic gate was lost under the ice, the Jaffa for some reason could not escape.

About the shape of the shield, it is not relevant, the shape of the field could be manipulated, and it doesn't seem that it would be a problem to do this. As for the Replicators, they could simply walk through the Goa'uld shields, seeing as the personal shields, unmodified, would not stop objects with a lower velocity. However, were the shields to be modified to stop all matter and energy, it is likley at the top of the shielded enclosure, the shield would extend to make a "cieling."

Owen MacriYou make an interesting point. Why were the Replicators unable to simply walk through Apophis's personal shield? They certainly weren't moving at any kind of great velocity...They were, instead, scaling the sides of the field of energy protecting him...

_Owen_
July 4th, 2005, 09:36 PM
I believe this was simply an error and they did this so Apophis could not be attacked. But personally I hate answers that give the shows' production as reasoning, while, yes, the answers are most likley correct, they are no fun. So here is an answer within the Stargate universe.

Apophis could have reconfigured his personal shield, when learning of the replicator threat, to repel all matter, so as to protect against the replicators.

Owen Macri

Avatar28
July 4th, 2005, 09:51 PM
Except that if it's set to repel all matter, how is he able to breathe? Maybe it's designed to repel all solid matter rather than all matter (forgive me if that was your intention). I don't remember, but could he have reconfigured it after jack put a knife through his hand?

Uber
July 4th, 2005, 10:13 PM
I believe this was simply an error and they did this so Apophis could not be attacked. But personally I hate answers that give the shows' production as reasoning, while, yes, the answers are most likley correct, they are no fun. So here is an answer within the Stargate universe.

Apophis could have reconfigured his personal shield, when learning of the replicator threat, to repel all matter, so as to protect against the replicators.

Owen MacriYou've got a point about Apophis possibly tweaking his shield to repel all solid matter...although it's the only instance I've seen of this possibility and it has never been discussed as a possibility before or since...

But then there are lots of examples of the show ignoring their own rules for the sake of the story.

For instance...it's well established canon that matter can only travel one way though a wormhole, right?

And yet, in Shades of Grey, Jack goes through and "holds the door open for them" meaning he stuck his arm BACK into the incoming wormhole...and in Gemini, Teal'c and Replicarter pull each other in and out of the outgoing wormhole...the top half of Teal'c's torso completely passed the plane of the event horizon...yet he pulled himself back out and Replicarter was able to stick her head back out of that same OUTGOING wormhole...

And then another example of ignoring the "rules"...you are propelled through the gate on the other end at the same speed in which you entered the wormhole...a fact reinforced by Sam in "Upgrades." So why then in the Fifth Race was Jack thrown so drastically into the Asgard's "gate room" when all he did was walk through ours, but then on his return trip, he walked back though our stargate???

(...and dont even get me started about the frost affect from the movie and Children of the gods...)

:rolleyes:

Avatar28
July 4th, 2005, 10:40 PM
You've got a point about Apophis possibly tweaking his shield to repel all solid matter...although it's the only instance I've seen of this possibility and it has never been discussed as a possibility before or since...

But then there are lots of examples of the show ignoring their own rules for the sake of the story.

For instance...it's well established canon that matter can only travel one way though a wormhole, right?

And yet, in Shades of Grey, Jack goes through and "holds the door open for them" meaning he stuck his arm BACK into the incoming wormhole...and in Gemini, Teal'c and Replicarter pull each other in and out of the outgoing wormhole...the top half of Teal'c's torso completely passed the plane of the event horizon...yet he pulled himself back out and Replicarter was able to stick her head back out of that same OUTGOING wormhole...

I think this can be actually explained by the fact that since they were in contact with each other the gate treated them as a single entity and thus did not actually start transmission. It seems that there is a sort of buffer (probably located in some sort of subspace field though the field is just my conjecture) which is where the gate does it's dirty work. As an example, we know from revisions that the transmitter is located on the very back of the malp. Yet when the malp falls back through the wormhole in A Hundred Days it doesn't immediately stop transmitting as soon as the transmitter enters the wormhole. The same thing probably applies to why nothing happened when Jack stuck his pistol back through the gate to hold it open in the episode you mentioned (I don't remember if it was just his pistol or his hand and pistol, though I think it was just the pistol).



And then another example of ignoring the "rules"...you are propelled through the gate on the other end at the same speed in which you entered the wormhole...a fact reinforced by Sam in "Upgrades." So why then in the Fifth Race was Jack thrown so drastically into the Asgard's "gate room" when all he did was walk through ours, but then on his return trip, he walked back though our stargate???

(...and dont even get me started about the frost affect from the movie and Children of the gods...)

:rolleyes:

Possibly because of the distance and not having a proper lock on the distant gate or a proper power source but rather one that fizzled and quickly died?

Wandering Tamer
July 5th, 2005, 07:46 AM
I was thinking about the Replicators on Apophis' shields. We've seen that the sheilding technology wasn't around at first, so perhaps it was upgraded. It's also possible that he made the sheild more permanant for that occasion. If you're in a fire fight, then most weapons are fast moving, if you simply want protection, just make the sheild absolute and not relevant to the speed of the object. Having it react to the weapon speed might just be a way of conserving power and not having it active all the time.

As for the question of the outgoing wormhole, what if you can enter parts of your body but you can't travel. so, once you exist, you can go back through the event horizon but you won't go anywhere. Besides, the SGC doesn't know everything about the Stargate. It might be entirely possible that people can travel both directions and we've just never thought about it, I mean, radio transmissions can go both ways. and once you go through the gate everything is energy anyway.

As for the speed thing, I suppose it's because it was such a long distance or it could be because our gate was never meant to dial that far out and so, like the first few times we opened the gate and felt earthquakes, there was the ill effect of the speed problem. Obviously, the Asgard's gate didn't have the problem because Jack came back fine. And once they had a ZPM to power the gate, and the fact that our gate had already done Galaxy to galaxy travel, the speed differential returned to normal.

_Owen_
July 5th, 2005, 01:41 PM
Except that if it's set to repel all matter, how is he able to breathe? Maybe it's designed to repel all solid matter rather than all matter (forgive me if that was your intention). I don't remember, but could he have reconfigured it after jack put a knife through his hand?
Actually, I wasn't thinking that, but I did make my post at midnight so, you can't blame me. Your idea is a good subsitute to mine, the field will propel all solid matter. Thank you.

I believe Jack through the knife through the hand of Heru'ur, not Apophis.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
July 5th, 2005, 01:47 PM
You've got a point about Apophis possibly tweaking his shield to repel all solid matter...although it's the only instance I've seen of this possibility and it has never been discussed as a possibility before or since...

But then there are lots of examples of the show ignoring their own rules for the sake of the story.

For instance...it's well established canon that matter can only travel one way though a wormhole, right?

And yet, in Shades of Grey, Jack goes through and "holds the door open for them" meaning he stuck his arm BACK into the incoming wormhole...and in Gemini, Teal'c and Replicarter pull each other in and out of the outgoing wormhole...the top half of Teal'c's torso completely passed the plane of the event horizon...yet he pulled himself back out and Replicarter was able to stick her head back out of that same OUTGOING wormhole...

And then another example of ignoring the "rules"...you are propelled through the gate on the other end at the same speed in which you entered the wormhole...a fact reinforced by Sam in "Upgrades." So why then in the Fifth Race was Jack thrown so drastically into the Asgard's "gate room" when all he did was walk through ours, but then on his return trip, he walked back though our stargate???

(...and dont even get me started about the frost affect from the movie and Children of the gods...)

:rolleyes:
You are right, the show has disputed its' own points. However, the first examples you gave aren't examples. It is true, matter cannot travel two ways through a Stargate, however it can enter the event horizon on both sides and be dematerialized, however if it is completley dematerialized as if it was going to travel through the Stargate, however the matter would not be rematerilaized from the event horizon of the other Stargate, the energy would likley be released into the Stargate itself. So matter cannot travel two ways through the Stargate, however it can cross the event horizon of both Stargates, and it can be de and re materialized on there own respective sides, but matter that completley passes the event horizon of the recieving wormhole will not be rematerialized on the other side.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
July 5th, 2005, 01:50 PM
I was thinking about the Replicators on Apophis' shields. We've seen that the sheilding technology wasn't around at first, so perhaps it was upgraded. It's also possible that he made the sheild more permanant for that occasion. If you're in a fire fight, then most weapons are fast moving, if you simply want protection, just make the sheild absolute and not relevant to the speed of the object. Having it react to the weapon speed might just be a way of conserving power and not having it active all the time.

As for the question of the outgoing wormhole, what if you can enter parts of your body but you can't travel. so, once you exist, you can go back through the event horizon but you won't go anywhere. Besides, the SGC doesn't know everything about the Stargate. It might be entirely possible that people can travel both directions and we've just never thought about it, I mean, radio transmissions can go both ways. and once you go through the gate everything is energy anyway.

As for the speed thing, I suppose it's because it was such a long distance or it could be because our gate was never meant to dial that far out and so, like the first few times we opened the gate and felt earthquakes, there was the ill effect of the speed problem. Obviously, the Asgard's gate didn't have the problem because Jack came back fine. And once they had a ZPM to power the gate, and the fact that our gate had already done Galaxy to galaxy travel, the speed differential returned to normal.
Nice post yet again Wandering Tamer. I appoligize, I basically posted what you said again, I did not read your post before I posted. However we do know that matter cannot travel two ways through the Stargate with its' curent configuration in place.

Energy can travel both ways, but only if it enteres the event horizon as energy, if it enters as matter and is converted into energy it cannot.

Owen Macri

CatGoddess
July 5th, 2005, 03:08 PM
Finally...and I'll confess this question's a little silly...the shape of the shield...it appears to be cylindrical. Could that not cause a problem if the attack were coming from above? Can the shape of the protective shield be manipulated to encapsulate the individual instead?

This conjured up an interesting image in my twisted mind...

A Goa'uld is walking along on some planet, smug and secure in the knowledge that nothing can harm him because he has a personal shield.

A bird flies overhead . . .

*plop*

Uber
July 5th, 2005, 06:42 PM
This conjured up an interesting image in my twisted mind...

A Goa'uld is walking along on some planet, smug and secure in the knowledge that nothing can harm him because he has a personal shield.

A bird flies overhead . . .

*plop*Very funny...but that's kinda the thought I had of the shape of the field per Enemies...it looked completely cylindrical and did not give the appearance of having a top to it...

So what was to stop the replicators from just crawling to the top?

SavageAncient
July 5th, 2005, 07:05 PM
I believe Jack through the knife through the hand of Heru'ur, not Apophis.

yes, it was Heru-Ur.

this brings me to something else, when jack threw the knife to disable heru-urs shield, why did he not fire his mp5 when the shield was dissipating? pretty sure 1 bullet would have made it through hehe.

I'm not sure if this is correct but I think the Zat fires slower then the staff weapon or earth guns, so shouldnt the zat hit the person instead of the shield? sadly I have yet to see an episode where somebody fires a zat on a personal shield (might have missed it though :) )

Uber
July 5th, 2005, 07:10 PM
yes, it was Heru-Ur.

this brings me to something else, when jack threw the knife to disable heru-urs shield, why did he not fire his mp5 when the shield was dissipating? pretty sure 1 bullet would have made it through hehe.

I'm not sure if this is correct but I think the Zat fires slower then the staff weapon or earth guns, so shouldnt the zat hit the person instead of the shield? sadly I have yet to see an episode where somebody fires a zat on a personal shield (might have missed it though :) )Chimera...

Sam has a zat and Pete has a handgun...both are firing at Osiris...and the zat blasts are deflected by the personal shield...

_Owen_
July 5th, 2005, 07:50 PM
yes, it was Heru-Ur.

this brings me to something else, when jack threw the knife to disable heru-urs shield, why did he not fire his mp5 when the shield was dissipating? pretty sure 1 bullet would have made it through hehe.

I'm not sure if this is correct but I think the Zat fires slower then the staff weapon or earth guns, so shouldnt the zat hit the person instead of the shield? sadly I have yet to see an episode where somebody fires a zat on a personal shield (might have missed it though :) )
We know that the speed of matter is relevant to the deflective force of the personal shield, however the speed of energy may not be. As the Goa'uld are more familiar with energy weapons they would likley prepare for these, so it would not be unreasonable to assume, that the shield will deflect energy traveling at all speeds, other than light and sound.

As for the shape of the shield it is possible that the shield is cylindrical and the bottom extends to the surface below and the top is covered with a flat area of shield, so Apophis can keep his hair clean.

Owen Macri

cozzerob
July 6th, 2005, 09:45 AM
The cylindrical shape is probably only coincidental - i'm sure that if he was shot from above he'd be sheilded there too - but in normal situations there's no point in bringing upi the top part.

also - couldn't it be possible that Apophis used the ships internal shield generators instead of his personal hand device's one - I know the replicators are crafty buggers - but ultimately bringing down the shields would have done them more harm - besides - he's effectivly contained in a box - there's no point in wouching him!

I would have to say that it is highly unlikely that the hand device was modded to intercept slower moving objects - the device is powered basically by you'r own electrical field amplified by naquada - the power constraints of this made them design the device to stop only objects with higher kinetic energy - I doubt it would be possible to mod the device to use any more energy than it allready does.

_Owen_
July 6th, 2005, 01:37 PM
It is possible but he would have to have the sensors constantly keep track of him. As well, the replicators were already in contol of the ship, once they realised the field was being emitted from the ship, they could simply deactivate the ships shield generators or internal sensors, Apophis would be unprotected.

Owen Macri

cozzerob
July 7th, 2005, 03:59 AM
If he wanted to do any moving he would have needed constant sensor monotoring, however it doesn't appear that he does want to do any... and why would he - the pel'tak is the best place to be to control the ship - he doesn't want to move (having a huge god-complex and believing that he'll find a way to survive and rule...). and even if he did - we all know how advanced the goa'uld ships are - they almost certainly have sensors in every room.

Oh - and about the replicators - why would they want to deactivate his shield? what benefit does it have for them - they don't enjoy killing and Apophis is effectivly contained. There is no benefit to them for killing him - they only attack threats to their activities of replication, which is why Jack and Teal'c wearn't attacked when they came the the bridge of Thor's ship - they wearn't attacking and were left alone. The same would apply to apophis.

_Owen_
July 7th, 2005, 02:00 PM
Yes, he would need constant sensor monitoring, similar to what Data set up in the episode with Dr. Soong and Lore.

I have not seen this episode in a while, I was not aware that he was contained or at the Pel'tak, I appoligize. The Replicators would only deactivate the shield if he posed a threat, or if he was in the way. However, like I said, I have not seen this episode in a while, so I am going to go ahead and trust you, and assume that he was not.

Owen Macri