A Question On The Asgard Teleporter

[Whitestar]

Does anyone know how the Asgard teleporter operates? It appears to be akin to the Star Trek transporter, but I could be wrong. Any ideas/theories?


Whitestar

[LiquidBlue]

Not much has been revealed about the technology of the Asgard transporter. The show has given few clues. I will name two that I identify:

1) The transporter needs a way to locate the target object. This can be asgard scanners or beacons.

2) In the case of one of Thor's ships, the transporters were somewhat directional. That is they couldn't transport to or from any direction around the ship, but only within a certain arc. (see "Nemesis").

These clues do not offer much of a technological explanation. I will offer a couple of alternatives to the standard convert the object to energy and back again answer.

-Perhaps the transporter has means of determining the momentum of the object so precisely that its location is reduced to probabilities. The scanner has the ability to manipulate things so that the object is found in the place desired. This would require addition physics knowledge. Currently the only known way to determine the momentum of something so precisely is to reduce its energy to the point that there is nearly no momentum. The transporter would require inducing this uncertainity of position at a distance.

-Maybe the transporter has a means of exchanging two patchs of space. That is to say the patch of space where the object is located is exchanged for the patch of space where the object is going to be. Of course the implications of this are tricky. It could undermine our understanding of causality. But of course so does faster than light travel. If the Asgard teleporters function in the same fashion as the Goa'uld ring transporter, then this might be a likely explanation. In the movie, the interiors of both sets of transport rings exchanged places. (Of course, in the series you can intercept a ring transport, which seems to imply the energy theory, but does not disqualify this space exchange theory).

-Maybe the transporter creates an array of quantum wormholes that allows the object to travel through them and reintegrated in a coherent manner.

-Maybe something else.

I see this as an area of simple speculation. But then we wouldn't be posting if we didn't wonder.

[Whitestar]

Perhaps the transporter has means of determining the momentum of the object so precisely that its location is reduced to probabilities. The scanner has the ability to manipulate things so that the object is found in the place desired. This would require addition physics knowledge. Currently the only known way to determine the momentum of something so precisely is to reduce its energy to the point that there is nearly no momentum. The transporter would require inducing this uncertainity of position at a distance. Maybe the transporter has a means of exchanging two patchs of space. That is to say the patch of space where the object is located is exchanged for the patch of space where the object is going to be. Of course the implications of this are tricky. It could undermine our understanding of causality. But of course so does faster than light travel. If the Asgard teleporters function in the same fashion as the Goa'uld ring transporter, then this might be a likely explanation.

Which brings me to another question: how does the Goa'uld ring transporter works?


Whitestar

[Tibit]

From what we have seen (and I think we might have heard in the show when they intercepted matter streams) it works in a similar way to the stargate itself. The rings dematerializes everything in the rings and transmits them to the other rings in a similar but seemingly a lot slower and shorter distanced then the stargate. The rings at the recieving end rematerialize and go away. It hasn't been shown but I think if there were anything standing at the recieving rings one of three things would happen. The rings wouldn't come up, the person standing there would be vaporized, or he would 'switch places' with the guy at the sending end. I don't like the last idea because then the 2 matter streams would have to pass through each other at one point (presumably the middle) and possibly scramble or mix or something of that point. So either they built in a securit feature of it simply not turning on (sure would be easy to stop rings from initializing, just sit something over the thing) or they dont care about someone stupid enough to stand in on a recieving ring. Knowing the Goauld, it is probably the vaporize whoever was standing there option.

[JanusAncient]

I thought that it was discovered, that the Ancients in fact created the ring transport system. I think that the Asgard teleportation works like the ring transport system, and the Stargate, by deconstructing and then reconstructing matter, at specific destinations. Asgard teleportation, is similar to the elevators in Atlantis, teleportation. The only transporter, that seems different is the Furling doorway, in the episode "Paradise Lost."

[immhotep]

the ring transporters work by transporting matter simutanueosly to platforms, matter on boths ends can be exchanged by being detected and send simutaneously between the platforms in an energy transmition.

[Darkstar]

hello whitestar nice name it bears no resemblence to mine hey it is in fact the opposite of mine cool!

the asgard transporters would have to function similar to the transporters of ST they capture the person in the streem and dematerialise the matter then the energy is rematerialised on the ship the ships must have a buffer of some kind to store the paterns prior to returning them to their normal form such a technology sounds like it could one day work but at what risks such a technology has been created to telelport signals and such but never matter that is a different matter in total

[LiquidBlue]

the asgard transporters would have to function similar to the transporters of ST they capture the person in the streem and dematerialise the matter then the energy is rematerialised on the ship the ships must have a buffer of some kind to store the paterns prior to returning them to their normal form

I have offered a couple of other explanations. I will offer another couple.

-Maybe the asgards teleporters are like the Omega-13 device in GalaxyQuest. They are capable of rewriting reality within their range and arc of influence given they are given sufficient information concerning the existing reality. Thus one moment you are in one place and the next moment reality has been rewritten so that you are in another. (There is evidence that the ancient device in WoO may have done something similar. That is, it took a region of space and returned it to a previous condition.)

-Maybe the asgards do not rewite reality, but choose it. Given the possibility of alternate realities, the teleporter merely asserts that of all the alternatives the reality where the object's position has changed is the reality that is.

-Maybe the asgard transporters emit something (sub-space waves, hyperspace waves, gravitons, goslings, whatever) that push the object across some barrier (subspace, hyperspace, dimensional, purple, etc.) and imparts the object the specific energy that when it recrosses the barrier into normal space, it is found in the desired location.

-----

About ring transporters. Since the show has established that the ring transporters are an Ancient device, we can reasonably compare it to the technology of the stargate.

As I understand the stargate, when a traveler uses the stargate to travel, the stargate disassembles them, pushes their constituant atoms down the wormhole along with the reassembly directions. The stargate on the other side of the wormhole stores the atoms of the person, and the directions to put everything back together, until it is sure that is has all of the information needed to reconstitute the object, at which time it does.

The ring transporters would then work just like the stargates, only without the wormhole used to extend the range. Instead of pushing everthing through a wormhole, it just projects it through normal space.

An interesting thought arises. It seems reasonable that since an object being transported using the rings is subject to be hijacked, it would be vulnerable to offensive attack. Perhaps even some sort of wide area disruption, that would degrade the object's coherence in transit, and would efectively prevent ring transports within that area.

[Whitestar]

hello whitestar nice name it bears no resemblence to mine hey it is in fact the opposite of mine cool!

the asgard transporters would have to function similar to the transporters of ST they capture the person in the streem and dematerialise the matter then the energy is rematerialised on the ship the ships must have a buffer of some kind to store the paterns prior to returning them to their normal form such a technology sounds like it could one day work but at what risks such a technology has been created to telelport signals and such but never matter that is a different matter in total

Hello Darkstar! Thanks for the kind words.

I've never been comfortable with the way teleportation is depicted in Star Trek or Stargate. Both of them work by separating crew members at the atomic level and converting them into energy. Once they reach their appointed destination, the process is reversed. One major problem with the transporter is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. This principle states that it is possible to determine an atom or particle's velocity or position with one hundred percent accuracy, however, we can never know both at the same time. Why? Well, simply put, you cannot observe a particle without disturbing it because you would need to 'touch' it with something, like a photon or some other particle. This will transfer energy to the observed particle. Sort of like shooting pool or playing soccer.


Another problem with the transporter is that it converts crew members into energy and back from energy into matter. Personally, I don't think that there will ever be a conventional use for converting energy into matter because of the amount of energy contained in one human being. Think about it: if one human can produce thousands of hiroshimas bombs, then you would need thousands of atom bombs worth of energy to create a turkey sandwich. That just doesn't seem practical to me. If that amount of energy were to be released when turning a man into energy, well let's just say there wouldn't be much left of anything for a few thousand miles!


I think the best way to create a teleporter that will be safe for use is one that works by bending and folding the space around the teleportees. The UPN tv movie, "Warlord: Battle For The Galaxy" was such an example. The tv movie starred Rod Taylor (who also starred in the 1960 classic film, H.G. Wells's Time Machine). In this film Taylor plays a soon-to-be retired general, a relic of a republic that has fallen into a dark age (sound familar?). Anyway, he's in charge of a super hi-tech starship that is equipped with a teleportation device. It works by bending and folding the space around the people traveling in it. The crew step onto a platform which is located in a section of the bridge. One crewman sets the coordinates to teleport the crew from the ship to a building. Then a distortion field surrounds the crew and they are in no danger of getting crushed, so long as they stay within the confines of the field.


However, any attempt to walk out of the field while its in operation, the results would be most unpleasant. One minute they were on the bridge of their ship and the next, they were inside of a building. It is mentioned that long ago, the ship had an older and primitive teleportation device that worked by disassembling atoms in one terminal and reassembling them at another one. The problem was that there was too many accidents.


I must admit that this form of teleportation sounds far more plausible than the Star Trek transporter because it doesn't violate the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and doesn't kill people by converting them into energy. This is very similar to the teleporter of the sci-fi show, "Gene Roddenberry's Earth: Final Conflict". I think this type of teleporter seems more likely and reasonable.


What does everybody else thinks?


Whitestar

[_Owen_]

The most likley and plausible and simplest, and cliche-est explination is the conversion of matter into energy. It is used in a large many number of series, but it is a relativley simple way to achieve the transportation of matter, compared to some alternatives (nice post LiquidBlue). While yes, there are many possibilites to the way Asgard transporters, or any kind of transporters work, matter-energy conversion, is the most popular, as well as the simplest. As for the Ancient Ring devices, yes they are Ancient, they were found within the Ancient outpost on Earth, it is almost certain that they convert the matter within the rings into energy, and send the energy stream to another set of rings, I make this assumption because we have seen the energy stream being transfered through space, therefore, something must be sent as energy, and matter seems to be a good choice. Seriously, a matter-energy conversion, is the most likely, simply becuase it is the most simple and almost a cliche, but other ways are possible.

Owen Macri

[~Thor~]

How can you convert matter into energy since matter is energy and vice versa? (Probably somewhat incorrect, but I'm so sure its true lol)

[Wandering Tamer]

you jsut need a lot of <this is going to sound strange> energy. Uh, you know about nuclear explosions right? ok, well those convert matter into energy. the problem is getting something to have enough power. damn, i'm trying to figure out how to say this, so if anyone wants to helps.

ok, according to E=MC<squared> energy is equal to matter at the speed of light. which means, if any peice of matter moves fast enough it becomes energy and if any energy slows down it becomes matter. the problem with this is that to get enough energy to make something of relavent mass go that fast, it takes an infinite amount of energy. this is because the faster you go, the heavier you are and because time <univeral time, not personal time> slows down. so, you need a huge power source, like say a ZPM or a lightening strike.

That's why the gates require so much power, although to be honest, in reality, a lightning strike doesn't have nearly enough power. So, i'm thinking that the ancients found a convient way around that rule of the universe, although as the Tolan pointed out, our views of universal physics are exceedingly primative and wrong, so that's another story telling point to get around what we generally see as problems with the technology.

I hope that made some sense. If I got it wrong, it's because I haven't got a good way to explain what i know, so sorry.

[_Owen_]

Nice post again Wandering Tamer! Once again, I believe you are mostly correct, so I don't see any reason to repeat what you said. The only thing I noticed was one small detail, E=MC2 is equal to Energy equals matter times the squared velocity of light, you just forgot to square it.

In respose to ~Thor~ matter and energy are diffrent, matter can posses energy, such as kinetic energy, heat energy, etc. but it is still matter, and vice versa, energy is energy, not matter. They can be inter converted using several methods, to convert matter into energy you can use a nuclear reaction, or combine the matter with an equal amount of antimatter. There are many, many more ways, but if you want to read up on it, I am sure I could find you a site or a book, just ask.

Owen Macri

[~Thor~]

Ok. But I have a few questions? Does light have mass? And in a nuclear reaction isn't the matter just turned (change of state) into plasma (no longer in an atom structure but just a mixture of protons, neutrons and electrons) and then the energy holding the atom together released?

EDIT: I read somewhere that higher energy EM is more particle like, while lower energy is more wave like. If EM did have mass the more energy the more mass it would have (E=mc^2 > m=E/c^2), a gamma ray (according to the forumla) would have mass just greater than electron, while a lower energy photon would have mass way less than an electron (E=fh (or maybe its wavelength*planks contant (can't remember))

[Avatar28]

No, electromagnetic radiation does not have mass per se. However it does have momentum (and is throught to have gravity).

No, a plasma has nothing directly to do with a nuclear reaction. A plasma is just a soup of atoms that have had their electrons stripped off. It's still matter. In fact, you've seen plasma before. You've probably even been burned by it. Fire is a plasma.

Also, for the amount of energy released in a nuclear reaction, well the largest nuclear weapon ever detonated by the united states was Castle Bravo and had an explosive yield between 15 and 20 megatons and actually vaporized two or three islands of Bikini Atoll. If you convert 2 lbs of matter entirely into energy you would get an explosive equivalent of about 22 million tons of TNT. So your average person, we'll go with around 150 lbs, if converted entirely into energy would have the equivalent of 1650 megatons. Kerblooey!