A Question On The Asgard Teleporter

[Whitestar]

Does anyone know how the Asgard teleporter operates? It appears to be akin to the Star Trek transporter, but I could be wrong. Any ideas/theories?


Whitestar

[LiquidBlue]

Not much has been revealed about the technology of the Asgard transporter. The show has given few clues. I will name two that I identify:

1) The transporter needs a way to locate the target object. This can be asgard scanners or beacons.

2) In the case of one of Thor's ships, the transporters were somewhat directional. That is they couldn't transport to or from any direction around the ship, but only within a certain arc. (see "Nemesis").

These clues do not offer much of a technological explanation. I will offer a couple of alternatives to the standard convert the object to energy and back again answer.

-Perhaps the transporter has means of determining the momentum of the object so precisely that its location is reduced to probabilities. The scanner has the ability to manipulate things so that the object is found in the place desired. This would require addition physics knowledge. Currently the only known way to determine the momentum of something so precisely is to reduce its energy to the point that there is nearly no momentum. The transporter would require inducing this uncertainity of position at a distance.

-Maybe the transporter has a means of exchanging two patchs of space. That is to say the patch of space where the object is located is exchanged for the patch of space where the object is going to be. Of course the implications of this are tricky. It could undermine our understanding of causality. But of course so does faster than light travel. If the Asgard teleporters function in the same fashion as the Goa'uld ring transporter, then this might be a likely explanation. In the movie, the interiors of both sets of transport rings exchanged places. (Of course, in the series you can intercept a ring transport, which seems to imply the energy theory, but does not disqualify this space exchange theory).

-Maybe the transporter creates an array of quantum wormholes that allows the object to travel through them and reintegrated in a coherent manner.

-Maybe something else.

I see this as an area of simple speculation. But then we wouldn't be posting if we didn't wonder.

[Whitestar]

Perhaps the transporter has means of determining the momentum of the object so precisely that its location is reduced to probabilities. The scanner has the ability to manipulate things so that the object is found in the place desired. This would require addition physics knowledge. Currently the only known way to determine the momentum of something so precisely is to reduce its energy to the point that there is nearly no momentum. The transporter would require inducing this uncertainity of position at a distance. Maybe the transporter has a means of exchanging two patchs of space. That is to say the patch of space where the object is located is exchanged for the patch of space where the object is going to be. Of course the implications of this are tricky. It could undermine our understanding of causality. But of course so does faster than light travel. If the Asgard teleporters function in the same fashion as the Goa'uld ring transporter, then this might be a likely explanation.


Which brings me to another question: how does the Goa'uld ring transporter works?


Whitestar

[Tibit]

From what we have seen (and I think we might have heard in the show when they intercepted matter streams) it works in a similar way to the stargate itself. The rings dematerializes everything in the rings and transmits them to the other rings in a similar but seemingly a lot slower and shorter distanced then the stargate. The rings at the recieving end rematerialize and go away. It hasn't been shown but I think if there were anything standing at the recieving rings one of three things would happen. The rings wouldn't come up, the person standing there would be vaporized, or he would 'switch places' with the guy at the sending end. I don't like the last idea because then the 2 matter streams would have to pass through each other at one point (presumably the middle) and possibly scramble or mix or something of that point. So either they built in a securit feature of it simply not turning on (sure would be easy to stop rings from initializing, just sit something over the thing) or they dont care about someone stupid enough to stand in on a recieving ring. Knowing the Goauld, it is probably the vaporize whoever was standing there option.

[JanusAncient]

I thought that it was discovered, that the Ancients in fact created the ring transport system. I think that the Asgard teleportation works like the ring transport system, and the Stargate, by deconstructing and then reconstructing matter, at specific destinations. Asgard teleportation, is similar to the elevators in Atlantis, teleportation. The only transporter, that seems different is the Furling doorway, in the episode "Paradise Lost."

[immhotep]

the ring transporters work by transporting matter simutanueosly to platforms, matter on boths ends can be exchanged by being detected and send simutaneously between the platforms in an energy transmition.

[Darkstar]

hello whitestar nice name it bears no resemblence to mine hey it is in fact the opposite of mine cool! :cool:

the asgard transporters would have to function similar to the transporters of ST they capture the person in the streem and dematerialise the matter then the energy is rematerialised on the ship the ships must have a buffer of some kind to store the paterns prior to returning them to their normal form such a technology sounds like it could one day work but at what risks such a technology has been created to telelport signals and such but never matter that is a different matter in total :D

[LiquidBlue]

the asgard transporters would have to function similar to the transporters of ST they capture the person in the streem and dematerialise the matter then the energy is rematerialised on the ship the ships must have a buffer of some kind to store the paterns prior to returning them to their normal form

I have offered a couple of other explanations. I will offer another couple.

-Maybe the asgards teleporters are like the Omega-13 device in GalaxyQuest. They are capable of rewriting reality within their range and arc of influence given they are given sufficient information concerning the existing reality. Thus one moment you are in one place and the next moment reality has been rewritten so that you are in another. (There is evidence that the ancient device in WoO may have done something similar. That is, it took a region of space and returned it to a previous condition.)

-Maybe the asgards do not rewite reality, but choose it. Given the possibility of alternate realities, the teleporter merely asserts that of all the alternatives the reality where the object's position has changed is the reality that is.

-Maybe the asgard transporters emit something (sub-space waves, hyperspace waves, gravitons, goslings, whatever) that push the object across some barrier (subspace, hyperspace, dimensional, purple, etc.) and imparts the object the specific energy that when it recrosses the barrier into normal space, it is found in the desired location.

-----

About ring transporters. Since the show has established that the ring transporters are an Ancient device, we can reasonably compare it to the technology of the stargate.

As I understand the stargate, when a traveler uses the stargate to travel, the stargate disassembles them, pushes their constituant atoms down the wormhole along with the reassembly directions. The stargate on the other side of the wormhole stores the atoms of the person, and the directions to put everything back together, until it is sure that is has all of the information needed to reconstitute the object, at which time it does.

The ring transporters would then work just like the stargates, only without the wormhole used to extend the range. Instead of pushing everthing through a wormhole, it just projects it through normal space.

An interesting thought arises. It seems reasonable that since an object being transported using the rings is subject to be hijacked, it would be vulnerable to offensive attack. Perhaps even some sort of wide area disruption, that would degrade the object's coherence in transit, and would efectively prevent ring transports within that area.

[Whitestar]

hello whitestar nice name it bears no resemblence to mine hey it is in fact the opposite of mine cool! :cool:

the asgard transporters would have to function similar to the transporters of ST they capture the person in the streem and dematerialise the matter then the energy is rematerialised on the ship the ships must have a buffer of some kind to store the paterns prior to returning them to their normal form such a technology sounds like it could one day work but at what risks such a technology has been created to telelport signals and such but never matter that is a different matter in total :D


Hello Darkstar! :) Thanks for the kind words.

I've never been comfortable with the way teleportation is depicted in Star Trek or Stargate. Both of them work by separating crew members at the atomic level and converting them into energy. Once they reach their appointed destination, the process is reversed. One major problem with the transporter is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. This principle states that it is possible to determine an atom or particle's velocity or position with one hundred percent accuracy, however, we can never know both at the same time. Why? Well, simply put, you cannot observe a particle without disturbing it because you would need to 'touch' it with something, like a photon or some other particle. This will transfer energy to the observed particle. Sort of like shooting pool or playing soccer.


Another problem with the transporter is that it converts crew members into energy and back from energy into matter. Personally, I don't think that there will ever be a conventional use for converting energy into matter because of the amount of energy contained in one human being. Think about it: if one human can produce thousands of hiroshimas bombs, then you would need thousands of atom bombs worth of energy to create a turkey sandwich. That just doesn't seem practical to me. If that amount of energy were to be released when turning a man into energy, well let's just say there wouldn't be much left of anything for a few thousand miles!


I think the best way to create a teleporter that will be safe for use is one that works by bending and folding the space around the teleportees. The UPN tv movie, "Warlord: Battle For The Galaxy" was such an example. The tv movie starred Rod Taylor (who also starred in the 1960 classic film, H.G. Wells's Time Machine). In this film Taylor plays a soon-to-be retired general, a relic of a republic that has fallen into a dark age (sound familar?). Anyway, he's in charge of a super hi-tech starship that is equipped with a teleportation device. It works by bending and folding the space around the people traveling in it. The crew step onto a platform which is located in a section of the bridge. One crewman sets the coordinates to teleport the crew from the ship to a building. Then a distortion field surrounds the crew and they are in no danger of getting crushed, so long as they stay within the confines of the field.


However, any attempt to walk out of the field while its in operation, the results would be most unpleasant. One minute they were on the bridge of their ship and the next, they were inside of a building. It is mentioned that long ago, the ship had an older and primitive teleportation device that worked by disassembling atoms in one terminal and reassembling them at another one. The problem was that there was too many accidents.


I must admit that this form of teleportation sounds far more plausible than the Star Trek transporter because it doesn't violate the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and doesn't kill people by converting them into energy. This is very similar to the teleporter of the sci-fi show, "Gene Roddenberry's Earth: Final Conflict". I think this type of teleporter seems more likely and reasonable.


What does everybody else thinks?


Whitestar

[_Owen_]

The most likley and plausible and simplest, and cliche-est explination is the conversion of matter into energy. It is used in a large many number of series, but it is a relativley simple way to achieve the transportation of matter, compared to some alternatives (nice post LiquidBlue). While yes, there are many possibilites to the way Asgard transporters, or any kind of transporters work, matter-energy conversion, is the most popular, as well as the simplest. As for the Ancient Ring devices, yes they are Ancient, they were found within the Ancient outpost on Earth, it is almost certain that they convert the matter within the rings into energy, and send the energy stream to another set of rings, I make this assumption because we have seen the energy stream being transfered through space, therefore, something must be sent as energy, and matter seems to be a good choice. Seriously, a matter-energy conversion, is the most likely, simply becuase it is the most simple and almost a cliche, but other ways are possible.

Owen Macri

[~Thor~]

How can you convert matter into energy since matter is energy and vice versa? (Probably somewhat incorrect, but I'm so sure its true lol)

[Wandering Tamer]

you jsut need a lot of <this is going to sound strange> energy. Uh, you know about nuclear explosions right? ok, well those convert matter into energy. the problem is getting something to have enough power. damn, i'm trying to figure out how to say this, so if anyone wants to helps.

ok, according to E=MC<squared> energy is equal to matter at the speed of light. which means, if any peice of matter moves fast enough it becomes energy and if any energy slows down it becomes matter. the problem with this is that to get enough energy to make something of relavent mass go that fast, it takes an infinite amount of energy. this is because the faster you go, the heavier you are and because time <univeral time, not personal time> slows down. so, you need a huge power source, like say a ZPM or a lightening strike.

That's why the gates require so much power, although to be honest, in reality, a lightning strike doesn't have nearly enough power. So, i'm thinking that the ancients found a convient way around that rule of the universe, although as the Tolan pointed out, our views of universal physics are exceedingly primative and wrong, so that's another story telling point to get around what we generally see as problems with the technology.

I hope that made some sense. If I got it wrong, it's because I haven't got a good way to explain what i know, so sorry.

[_Owen_]

Nice post again Wandering Tamer! Once again, I believe you are mostly correct, so I don't see any reason to repeat what you said. The only thing I noticed was one small detail, E=MC2 is equal to Energy equals matter times the squared velocity of light, you just forgot to square it.

In respose to ~Thor~ matter and energy are diffrent, matter can posses energy, such as kinetic energy, heat energy, etc. but it is still matter, and vice versa, energy is energy, not matter. They can be inter converted using several methods, to convert matter into energy you can use a nuclear reaction, or combine the matter with an equal amount of antimatter. There are many, many more ways, but if you want to read up on it, I am sure I could find you a site or a book, just ask.

Owen Macri

[~Thor~]

Ok. But I have a few questions? Does light have mass? And in a nuclear reaction isn't the matter just turned (change of state) into plasma (no longer in an atom structure but just a mixture of protons, neutrons and electrons) and then the energy holding the atom together released?

EDIT: I read somewhere that higher energy EM is more particle like, while lower energy is more wave like. If EM did have mass the more energy the more mass it would have (E=mc^2 > m=E/c^2), a gamma ray (according to the forumla) would have mass just greater than electron, while a lower energy photon would have mass way less than an electron (E=fh (or maybe its wavelength*planks contant (can't remember))

[Avatar28]

No, electromagnetic radiation does not have mass per se. However it does have momentum (and is throught to have gravity).

No, a plasma has nothing directly to do with a nuclear reaction. A plasma is just a soup of atoms that have had their electrons stripped off. It's still matter. In fact, you've seen plasma before. You've probably even been burned by it. Fire is a plasma.

Also, for the amount of energy released in a nuclear reaction, well the largest nuclear weapon ever detonated by the united states was Castle Bravo and had an explosive yield between 15 and 20 megatons and actually vaporized two or three islands of Bikini Atoll. If you convert 2 lbs of matter entirely into energy you would get an explosive equivalent of about 22 million tons of TNT. So your average person, we'll go with around 150 lbs, if converted entirely into energy would have the equivalent of 1650 megatons. Kerblooey!

[_Owen_]

You beat me to it again Avatar28. What I was going to say was, mass is the amount of matter in an object, seeing as light is energy and not matter, it has no matter, therfore, no mass.

Owen Macri

[Avatar28]

And yet it still has momentum and gravity. Ain't physics wonderful?

Actually, one way of looking at it is that EM DOES have mass, but it's so negligible as to be irrelevant. Of course, that doesn't jive with Einstein but that's why we have different theories.:-) Anyways, in some of these theories, matter is just basically condensed energy. In the same way that steam condenses into water, energy condenses back into matter

[_Owen_]

That is a very good way of putting it. The problem is, there is so much stuff, that we haven't even begun to scratch the surface, we are billions of light years away from the surface. We will never truley understand a single thing, until we understand everything, it may seem like we understand some aspects of science, but there is so much undiscovered and it could all disprove what we believe to be correct.

Owen Macri

[Avatar28]

If only we could discover a grand unified theory, it would help explain everything. AND, it might help us even bypass Heisenberg, thus allowing teleporters. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that a grand unified theory would do that.

[cozzerob]

From what we have seen (and I think we might have heard in the show when they intercepted matter streams) it works in a similar way to the stargate itself. The rings dematerializes everything in the rings and transmits them to the other rings in a similar but seemingly a lot slower and shorter distanced then the stargate. The rings at the recieving end rematerialize and go away. It hasn't been shown but I think if there were anything standing at the recieving rings one of three things would happen. The rings wouldn't come up, the person standing there would be vaporized, or he would 'switch places' with the guy at the sending end. I don't like the last idea because then the 2 matter streams would have to pass through each other at one point (presumably the middle) and possibly scramble or mix or something of that point. So either they built in a securit feature of it simply not turning on (sure would be easy to stop rings from initializing, just sit something over the thing) or they dont care about someone stupid enough to stand in on a recieving ring. Knowing the Goauld, it is probably the vaporize whoever was standing there option.

There is a very good already thread that explains the 'goa'uld' transport rings - i'll try to find it later. In that thread it tells you that you can have the two rings contents change places. However, in response to your problem about conflicting matterstreams i would say that i believe that the 'matterstream' is actually energy, not matter (which would be more inkeeping with the stargate transportation technology, on which the rings are based {or vice versa - we built cars before planes...}). In that case there is no need to worry about signals merging. You could send one at a time, or send the streams at the same time (think about it - there are thousands of radio waves all travelling through the air, you can send emails up your internet connection while downloading files, etc)

[LiquidBlue]

I recently viewed "Solitudes". I did not remember how much gate theory it revealed. For example, Captain Carter referred several times to the matter stream that is transmitted from one gate to another. It would seem then from the evidence of this episode that the gates do not convert matter to energy, but rather disintegrates and reintegrates the object. The same would then likely be true of the ring transporters.

In "Enigma," Narim tells Captain Carter that Quantum Physics is an elementary physics fallacy and that the Tollan are beyond it. This leaves open a wide window for new physics and teleporters that take advantage of it. Of course most of our advanced technology -- IC's, lasers, etc. -- are based on quantum physics.

[cozzerob]

I hate to be rude - but i believe that you are wrong. The 'matter' stream is just a turn of phrase, like wormhole. That's where the matter is transported, but it is transported as energy. This point is mentioned several time in many different episodes.

[LiquidBlue]

I hate to be rude - but i believe that you are wrong. The 'matter' stream is just a turn of phrase, like wormhole. That's where the matter is transported, but it is transported as energy. This point is mentioned several time in many different episodes.

No offense taken. Indeed, that is why I included the qualifier "from the evidence of this episode." I would like to have some references to other episodes that reveal gate technology - specificly the idea that it involves the matter -> energy -> matter conversion. I'll have to review "48 hours" as it might contain such information.

[cozzerob]

I'm glad you weren't offended. However, finding evidence will be hard - it's like alot of the central ideas in the series - you can't remember where you heard it but you know you heard it sometime - i'll see what I can find tho...

[cozzerob]

Ok - I found a good, clear reference to this in the episode 'Red Sky':

O'NEILL
I thought when something was in a wormhole, it existed only as…energy. That you needed another stargate to turn it back into solid matter.
CARTER
Actually, you absolutely correct, Sir.
O'NEILL
(Seconds later, amazed)
I am?
CARTER
Yes!
(Smiles)
You see? It's the Stargate on the other side that actually reintegrates the matter into it's pre-organized form.
[O'Neill looks back at Hammond with a huge grin on his face]

CARTER
Without it the energy in the wormhole would rematerialize in it's base form. Now, in the case of a person, that would be very bad, but in the case of an element, it shouldn't be a problem.
O'NEILL
(Still smiling, to Hammond, whispering)
I was right!

[sg1 volgman]

does something have to be energy to move through subspace?

lol... "I am?" "I was right!"

[_Owen_]

If only we could discover a grand unified theory, it would help explain everything. AND, it might help us even bypass Heisenberg, thus allowing teleporters. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that a grand unified theory would do that.

A grand unified theory would be great! It would help us with a lot of concepts. I believe it might, however, your guess is as good as mine, I have no evidence.


...goa'uld' transport rings...

Actually the transport rings are of Ancient design, the Goa'uld stole them. We know this because the Antarctic base had transport rings, and the Atarctic base was undiscovered by the Goa'uld.

Owen Macri

[_Owen_]

I hate to be rude - but i believe that you are wrong. The 'matter' stream is just a turn of phrase, like wormhole. That's where the matter is transported, but it is transported as energy. This point is mentioned several time in many different episodes.
You are very right here, matter stream is an incredible misnomer. A "matter stream," is actually energy, there is very little if no matter in what we would consider the "stream" at all.

Owen Macri

[_Owen_]

does something have to be energy to move through subspace?

lol... "I am?" "I was right!"
Seeing as we really have no solid facts about subspace that can and or have been proven, we can't really say whether or not it must be energy to travel through subspace, so I appoligize, but I cannot give you an answer.

Owen Macri

[cozzerob]

A grand unified theory would be great! It would help us with a lot of concepts. I believe it might, however, your guess is as good as mine, I have no evidence.



...goa'uld' transport rings...


Actually the transport rings are of Ancient design, the Goa'uld stole them. We know this because the Antarctic base had transport rings, and the Atarctic base was undiscovered by the Goa'uld.

Owen Macri

Yes Owen Macri - I know that... that is why I placed goa'uld in quotation marks, to emphasise the point that they were not of goa'uld design. You accidentally cut off the first quotation mark in your quote. It originally looked like this:


the 'goa'uld' transport rings

Again - hate to be rude but I specifically put goa'uld in quotation marks to point this out - I did see that episode of SG (it was damned good too...).

It shouldn't really come as any surprise that the rings are not of goa'uld design - as far as we know, nothing they have is there own - except the naquadria development - possibly.

[cozzerob]

does something have to be energy to move through subspace?

lol... "I am?" "I was right!"


Seeing as we really have no solid facts about subspace that can and or have been proven, we can't really say whether or not it must be energy to travel through subspace, so I appoligize, but I cannot give you an answer.

Very true - we have no evidence at all about this - however there is allways room for speculation. One possible idea is the energy can travel faster than pure matter, so to speed up gate travel you are de/re-materialised at either end. However, i guess it would depend on what type of energy you dematerialise into. However, I can't see another way to explain the de/re-materialisation proccess' place in the transport system. If matter is just as fast you can shove that through and not have to worry about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle... That said, it has been said in certain SG Episodes that our understanding of such mattters is flawed.

[cozzerob]

I guess we'll just have to wait until we work out the universe for ourselves and create our own stargate system - then we'll know whether (1) sub-space actually exists, and (2) if only energy can pass through it. Those 'll be the days...

[_Owen_]

Oh, I appoligize, cozzerob, I did not notice the quotation marks, I noticed the first one, but I guess with the apostraphe I didn't notice the second one, sorry. You can call me Owen, if you want. They probably stole the concept of Naquadria as well. They at least indirectly stole it. They stole the knowledge that lead to producing it.

Owen Macri

[_Owen_]

Or we could hypothesize, with no evidence, that in subpace, there are incredible amounts of gravity, and any matter would be crushed, which is why it is converted into energy.

Owen Macri

[cozzerob]

Yes, well - that's what happens when you guess wildly in science. McKay is particularly good at smiting this:

'CARTER
As a matter of fact, I do. Now what we need to do is find a way to establishing an event horizon without the vortex.
McKAY
'S impossible.
CARTER
I've seen it done before.
McKAY
Not by magical fairy beans...'


'McKAY
The crystals that retain the energy pattern before reintegration are not like magnetic hard drives.
CARTER
I know, they're crystals.
McKAY
But you can't just ignore the laws of thermodynamics. Entropy dictates that the crystals won't retain their energy patterns permanently. I've measured it. It's what's called quantitative evidence.
CARTER
I think the energy itself is unimportant past its initial imprint on the crystals.
McKAY
And this fantasy is based on?'

But your right - a little smattering of evidence here or there wouldn't go amiss, and I have none in this case. for a show so based around the stargate, they don't go into very much detail as to how it works... a great shame...

[davsoft]

One major problem with the transporter is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Err sorry. In Season 1, Narim of the Tollan said that Heisenberg Uncertainty was a misconception of primitive physics.... Heisenberg uncertainty doesn't come into it in the SG universe. Thanks,

David

[_Owen_]

Yes, that is my oppinion also, I have stated it in another thread, Heisenburg simply doesn't apply.

Owen Macri

[cozzerob]

doesn't it just give you a wonderful, warm-and-fuzzy, tingling-all-over feeling when you can blatently ignore the fundamentals of (current) physics - Heisenburg simply doesn't apply... loving it... ;)

[T_S]

Hmmm ok, I'm a bit late on this one. However I'd like to talk a bit about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (let me write HUP in the rest of this post), which would for us be a real problem if we were to create a transporter.

As the poster who wrote about it explained, the HUP is due to the fact that, when trying to detect the speed and location of a subatomic particle, the means you use to detect it will perturbate the system in a way that will change either the speed or the location; you can detect one of those, not both.

It's quite clear an atom and its components are a complex system with many interactions; don't even begin to think about how complex it becomes if you try to account for neighbouring atoms... Back to my point: a very small perturbation in this system can have effects.

Now, about complex systems and perturbations: the only way we know of to mathematically predict the outcome of those interactions is to simulate the way it will work all the way down.

Simple example: consider you have three bodies (A, B and C) with given masses, no charge, no universe around them ... just plain and "simple" gravitational interaction. There are currently no analytical tools that would allow us to directly predict the state (as in "position and speed") of those bodies at a given time knowing their initial states other than, well, just computing it step by step.

Back to the HUP: a lot more than 3 bodies, more interactions than just gravitation, and a whole universe around ... that makes things a bit harder to predict, doesn't it?

Now consider how far ahead of us in the fields of physics and mathematics the Asgard are. Consider what their computers can do. I think that they are actually able to work around the HUP by predicting the state of the system before it actually reaches it (providing the system is not too big).

[_Owen_]

Yes, Heisenburg all has to do with how we measure subatomic particles, it somehow, we managed a way to obeserve such particles without interfering with thier velocity and location, Heisenburg would be curshed.

Nice post by the way.

Owen Macri

[T_S]

"Getting rid" of Heisenberg still doesn't solve the energy requirement problem to dematerialize/rematerialize matter, but it's a start.

And ... thanks :)

[_Owen_]

Well, not to nitpick, but I think you mean dematerialize/rematerialize, but it isn't important. For all intents and purposes of our entertainment, let us assume we have unlimited energy, it makes it far more fun.

No problem.

Owen Macri

[T_S]

Well, not to nitpick, but I think you mean dematerialize/rematerialize, but it isn't important. For all intents and purposes of our entertainment, let us assume we have unlimited energy, it makes it far more fun.

Maybe not unlimited ... But let's assume our little gray friends have:

1) an efficient method for breaking down atoms: still uses lots of energy but inferior or equal to what the breakdown itself releases,

2) a way to channel the energy it produces.

That would help ^^

[_Owen_]

Ok, unlimited, is a little much, but we always seem to have energy when we need it. You are right it would help, especially a way to chanel the produced energy.

Owen Macri

[Three PhDs]

On the topic of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, it may be possible (if the Higgs-Boson particle and associated field actually turn out to be true) to measure the direction and position of a given particle by indirectly measuring their wake in the Higgs-Boson field. How to do this on a large scale without interfering with teh very particles you're trying to measure however, is far beyond my own comprehension.

[_Owen_]

That is a good idea, but you are right it would be incredibly difficult.

Owen Macri

[Three PhDs]

And yet it still has momentum and gravity. Ain't physics wonderful?

Actually, one way of looking at it is that EM DOES have mass, but it's so negligible as to be irrelevant. Of course, that doesn't jive with Einstein but that's why we have different theories.:-) Anyways, in some of these theories, matter is just basically condensed energy. In the same way that steam condenses into water, energy condenses back into matterA photon has no mass, but mass is not the only thing that distorts spacetime. Energy does also, hence energetic, though massless particles such as the photon are still able to produce gravitational effects and are still affected by gravity themselves.

[_Owen_]

I can't think right now, so I will just take your word for it.

lol.

Owen Macri

[Whitestar]

Yes, Heisenburg all has to do with how we measure subatomic particles, it somehow, we managed a way to obeserve such particles without interfering with thier velocity and location, Heisenburg would be curshed.

Nice post by the way.

Owen Macri


Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle forbids you from ever measuring an atom's position and velocity at the same time with one hundred percent accuracy. Why? Well, simply put, you cannot observe a particle without disturbing it because you would need to 'touch' it with something, like a photon or some other particle. This will transfer energy to the observed particle, sort of like shooting pool or playing soccer. But the main reason why we can't measure an atom's position and velocity at the same time is not just because of our crude instruments, or the very act of measuring, it's just that things at the quantum level are inherently very fuzzy. No extremely advance technology could overcome that, that's just the way universe works. So if engineers in the future decide to build a teleporter, the person undergoing the teleportation procedure will have to teleport fully intact. Besides, think of how painful it would be to have all your atoms scattered to the winds. Ouch! :eek:


Personally, I think the best way to create a teleportation device is with space warps. If you could bend or fold space from point A to point B, all you have to do is nip through one of these and you'll arrive at your destination without being disassembled at the atomic level. While the trip may not be instantaneous, it will certainly greatly reduce the distances involved.


Whitestar

[_Owen_]

No bubble was burst, I said the same thing, I know, according to Heisenburg you cannot measure a particles position and velocity at the same time. However in the Stargate universe The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle doesn't apply, because it is a part of Quantum Physics, and Narim stated that the Tollan had disproven such theories. And that they had "Licked Quantum Physics."

Owen Macri

[Three PhDs]

No bubble was burst, I said the same thing, I know, according to Heisenburg you cannot measure a particles position and velocity at the same time. However in the Stargate universe The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle doesn't apply, because it is a part of Quantum Physics, and Narim stated that the Tollan had disproven such theories. And that they had "Licked Quantum Physics."

Owen MacriHe said that the Tollan had found folly in what we call Quantum Mechanics, not that they had disproven Heisenberg. Very different things.

[_Owen_]

No, what he said was this:


NARIM: Ah! Kulivrian physics. An atom state is indeterminate until measured by an outside observer.

CARTER: We call it quantum physics. You know the theory?

NARIM: Yeah, I've studied it... in among other misconceptions of elementary science.

As you can see this relates directly to Heisenburg, he specifically says that the Schroedinger's Cat principle is a misconception, and implies that Kullivrian Physics, which is our Quantum Physics is a misconception.

Owen Macri

[Lord §okar]

"Getting rid" of Heisenberg still doesn't solve the energy requirement problem to dematerialize/rematerialize matter, but it's a start
Why is there an energy requirement and what is its quantity?

As you can see this relates directly to Heisenburg, he specifically says that the Schroedinger's Cat principle is a misconception, and implies that Kullivrian Physics, which is our Quantum Physics is a misconception.
By that same token Newtonian mechanics is also a misconception. It's not wrong, it's domain is lessened and needs help to describe reality, however. He says that quantum uncertainty is a misconception, if we believe him and assume that he wasn't overblowing his races' contribution to science then that only means they've been able to find a way around that particular stump. QM still goes a long way to describing our universe and when quantum gravity is concieved Schrodinger won't be a problem for us either, which is not to say that QM is false, it just needs help to describe reality.

[_Owen_]

I will have to disagree with you, Dictionary.com (I know it is probably not the best dictionary, but Merriam-Webster has started charging for some words) defines misconception as:

"A mistaken thought, idea, or notion; a misunderstanding"

Dictionary.com also defines "mistaken" as:

"Wrong or incorrect in opinion, understanding, or perception."

If Kullivrian Physics is a misconception, Quantum Physics is also a misconception. If Quantum Physics is a misconception, the theories that are involved are mistaken, therfore they are incorrect. Whether another theory can help to better explain it, is not the matter at hand. Quantum Physics is incorrect, or wrong, or not correct, or not right, whichever you preffer, therefore, The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle, being a part of Quantum Physics is also incorrect, wrong, not correct, and not right.

Owen Macri

[Lord §okar]

Heisenberg uncertainty can't be "wrong", nor can quantum mechanics, they're not things for which a boolean value of verity or falsity can be applied. It's a matter of fact that if you try to measure something small's state with a photon you will invariably change that which you attempted to observe.

With your definitions you have selectively picked, from a list of three possible interpretations, the one that supports your contention (and from the three that are then spawned you, again, select the one you want). That is false reasoning.

QM may very well be a misconception, that simply means it's been misconcieved and it's rammifications have been misconstrued, they are not wrong, just as Newtonian mechanics was not wrong, just misconstrued.

[_Owen_]

Actually for one of the words, I believe there was only one definition and the others were completley off topic and did not suit this situation at all, if you would like me to post them too... just ask.

Owen Macri

[Lord §okar]

"A mistaken thought, idea, or notion; a misunderstanding"
Not necessarily mistake, just misunderstood.

Wrong or incorrect in opinion, understanding, or perception."
Same with mistake.

That's not how I would define either of those words, but there it is.

[_Owen_]

Allright, to each his own.

Owen Macri