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PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 02:09 PM
Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but so far I haven't seen it.....

OK, been thinking again!!! Why do we need to dial a point of origin to establish a wormhole to another stargate?

The first six glyphs are used to establish the 3D coordinates of space for the location of another stargate, but why dial a seventh? Surely the stargate you're dialling from can act as its own point of reference (especially now we know about the correlative update system that adjusts the network to compensate for stellar drift etc).....the gate should "know" where it is in relation to all the others.....

I can accept this is DHD related and seeing as the Earth stargate doesn't have one you need to dial a PoO........

But seeing as the Ancients were clever enough to build the stargate system, they'd surely make it easy to use and intuitive.......so why the PoO??

Just seems like extra work to have to check each DHD for its unique PoO symbol to dial out/home when it can be a built in feature.........

Any ideas??

_Owen_
June 15th, 2005, 02:17 PM
Theoretically you are right the gate could automatically input the point of origin.

I think it has something to do with more primitive races. With the seventh symbol being dialed it would be easier to figure out what the gate does. That is how we figured it out, seven symbols, six for a location and one to plot a course.

Sorry I have to go out, but I will talk more about this later.

Owen Macri

6thMonolith
June 15th, 2005, 02:23 PM
(you don't need to dial PoO on a DHD. The Big Red Button takes care of that.)
I have two ideas:

1- PLOT DEVICE!!! They needed some sort of obsticle for Daniel in the movie... ;)

2-To tell the 'gate when you're done dialing.

If there was no PoO/big red button, you could get to a planet with the address of 1-2-3-4-5-6 just fine. But, if you wanted to go to 1-2-3-4-5-6-7(an eight chevron address, different galaxy), how would the 'gate know not to engage after the 6 was dialed?

./freelancer
June 15th, 2005, 02:28 PM
Theoretically you are right the gate could automatically input the point of origin.

I think it has something to do with more primitive races. With the seventh symbol being dialed it would be easier to figure out what the gate does. That is how we figured it out, seven symbols, six for a location and one to plot a course.

Sorry I have to go out, but I will talk more about this later.

Owen Macri
Actually, it just confused movie-Daniel. He figured out that you dialed six symbols for the coordinates, but he had no idea what the seventh was for (at first)..

PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 04:10 PM
I like the idea that the BRB acts as the PoO glyph, it would make alotta sense......but we've seen PoO glyphs on offworld DHD's before (can't remember which eps but I'll dig 'em out), so why would you need a PoO if the BRB does the job???

PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 04:15 PM
And thinking about the PoO.......which stargate are we using now (going into season 9)? I can never remember.....is the PoO the A with a little circle (original gate) or the O with a line underneath (Antarctic gate)??? :)

6thMonolith
June 15th, 2005, 04:20 PM
It's the A symbol. The Antartic 'gate was destroyed by that whole Anubis-superweapon thing.

6thMonolith
June 15th, 2005, 04:24 PM
I like the idea that the BRB acts as the PoO glyph, it would make alotta sense......but we've seen PoO glyphs on offworld DHD's before (can't remember which eps but I'll dig 'em out), so why would you need a PoO if the BRB does the job???

http://www.rdanderson.com/stargate/glyphs/dhd.jpg << the Abydoian(sp?) DHD. The PoO is at 10 O'clock.

Your right. No need for a BRB if there's a PoO and vise versa. Probably just an error.

PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Arrrrggghhhh......being doing some digging and now I'm more confused.....

Gates have 39 symbols but DHD's only have 38, they lack the PoO......so the BRB does act as the PoO............BUT we have seen unique PoO's on off world DHD's so what gives???
And having watched a few more episodes on DVD I've seen Daniel dial 7 glyphs then the BRB, so confusion reigns!!

I think I'm gonna chalk it up to "inconsistency" and go with the BRB as PoO idea.....makes more sense to my little primitive brain ;)

And so to the 2 gates business..........did we use a new dialling computer program for when we used the 2 different gates with the correct PoO symbols??? Or did it not really matter seeing as the gates only differed by the one symbol and the original program with the (A circle) just dialled the (O line) when connected to the Antarctic gate....... hmmmmmm

6thMonolith
June 15th, 2005, 05:03 PM
I'll say inconsistency, too ;)

As for the dialing program, they just used the same program. The two gates are exactly the same(on the inside), so the program worked for both. They had to replace all of the superconducting parts, though.

PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Replace ALL the superconducting parts???? My God man, they're not miracle workers!!!! ;)

<chuckle>

6thMonolith
June 15th, 2005, 05:06 PM
I think it was the reason SG-1 was stuck on an alien world for a week or two. I can go look it up. :D

PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 05:09 PM
But aren't the superconducting parts the naquadah?? We'd have no chance of replacing all that, we'd be rebuilding the gate.........wouldn't we??

6thMonolith
June 15th, 2005, 05:12 PM
Not the Naquadah, the 'wires' and things that we have hooked up to the gate. If we didn't have 'em, we'd have a dialing program, but no way to actually get the 'gate to move and dial.

PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 05:53 PM
Couldn't we just use magnets???? ;)

_Owen_
June 15th, 2005, 06:03 PM
Actually, you still have to dial the point of origin, the red button just activates the gate. Re-watch a couple episodes when they dial, they dial seven symbols and then push the button.

Owen Macri

PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 06:06 PM
I have seen 'em do that and seen the PoO on offworld gates, but how do you figure in the difference in glyphs on the gates and DHD's??.......39 vs 38 respectively

_Owen_
June 15th, 2005, 06:15 PM
I am not sure what you are asking, are you asking how to find the point of origin on a gate?

Owen Macri

PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 06:23 PM
No.....it seems there are only 38 glyphs plus a BRB on a DHD but there are 39 glyphs on a stargate........therefore, logically, seeing as the gate has a unique PoO and the DHD lacks a glyph but has a BRB then the BRB IS the PoO on the DHD.........

However, it has been seen on the show that you dial 7 glyphs then the BRB on an offworld DHD......but having one lees glyph means you can't dial all possible stargate addresses, which is a massive oversight on the Ancients part..........OR a bit of an inconsistency on the part of the shows writers.......

And seeing as the Ancients are big-glowy-know-it-alls............i'll believe they got it right ;)

_Owen_
June 15th, 2005, 06:28 PM
It could have simply been an oversight in the props department.

There are 38 symbols on the gate, these thirty eight are used to dial every possible known stargate adress, the thirty ninth symbol is unique to every gate and is only used as the point of origin, so you would be able to dial every possible stargate.

Owen Macri

PrimalAscended
June 15th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Yeah....I get that part of the gate dialling........but its the DHD thats giving me trouble....unless the BRB is the PoO......which I'm leaning towards......If not it doesn't make sense if it has one less glyph that a gate...

But taking into account the TV whoops factor its all good ;)

Just damn confusing and infuriating.......

_Owen_
June 15th, 2005, 06:44 PM
Ya, it is probably just a oversight by the props staff.

Owen Macri

PrimalAscended
June 16th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Hey...props staff or writers, whoever makes a booboo it don't bother me too much.......still love watching the show whatever!! ;)

And enjoy chatting and speculation too!!

6thMonolith
June 16th, 2005, 09:27 AM
This is why they can never reveal the 'gate system entirely to us. We'd just nitpick! ;)

PrimalAscended
June 16th, 2005, 09:33 AM
This is why they can never reveal the 'gate system entirely to us. We'd just nitpick! ;)

Hehehehe very true!! We just can't help it can we???? ;)

_Owen_
June 16th, 2005, 12:09 PM
Lol, I guess we wouldn't be here talking about this, if we could help it.

Owen Macri

PrimalAscended
June 16th, 2005, 12:46 PM
Hehehehe......if we didn't have forums where we could talk about it someone would be out there buying up loadsa toasters and magnets and trying to build a homemade gate...... ;)

_Owen_
June 16th, 2005, 01:19 PM
Lol, it would be so much easier to just go on down to the Naquadah store...

Owen Macri

PrimalAscended
June 16th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Easier maybe......but nowhere near as much fun!!!

"Yes Mr Ancient your 72 four slice toasters and 6 industrial strength junkyard magnets will be despatched right away.........will that be on credit???? " ;)

_Owen_
June 16th, 2005, 02:07 PM
"No, will you take a check?"

lol.

Owen Macri

6thMonolith
June 16th, 2005, 04:27 PM
"Now, where do you want us to load this 96-ton hunk of Titanium?"
:D :P

TechnoWraith
June 16th, 2005, 05:02 PM
Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but so far I haven't seen it.....

OK, been thinking again!!! Why do we need to dial a point of origin to establish a wormhole to another stargate?

The first six glyphs are used to establish the 3D coordinates of space for the location of another stargate, but why dial a seventh? Surely the stargate you're dialling from can act as its own point of reference (especially now we know about the correlative update system that adjusts the network to compensate for stellar drift etc).....the gate should "know" where it is in relation to all the others.....

I can accept this is DHD related and seeing as the Earth stargate doesn't have one you need to dial a PoO........

But seeing as the Ancients were clever enough to build the stargate system, they'd surely make it easy to use and intuitive.......so why the PoO??

Just seems like extra work to have to check each DHD for its unique PoO symbol to dial out/home when it can be a built in feature.........

Any ideas??

The way i see it:

The reason a PoO is needed is the same reason you need to find out where someone is when they call for directions to, say, your house. If someone needs directions to your house, the first thing you ask them is "Where are you?" That way you can tell him or her where to go, based on their location.
The Point of Origin is sort of like "I am at the corner of Elm and First" and the first six chevrons of the gate address is like the directions you give to get to your house.

If that made any sense, i'll be surprised. ;)

_Owen_
June 16th, 2005, 05:53 PM
Ya, that is pretty much it, in stargate terms, the point of origin, tells the gate where to generate the first side of the wormhole.

Owen Macri

Jarnin
June 16th, 2005, 07:00 PM
No.....it seems there are only 38 glyphs plus a BRB on a DHD but there are 39 glyphs on a stargate........therefore, logically, seeing as the gate has a unique PoO and the DHD lacks a glyph but has a BRB then the BRB IS the PoO on the DHD.........

However, it has been seen on the show that you dial 7 glyphs then the BRB on an offworld DHD......but having one lees glyph means you can't dial all possible stargate addresses, which is a massive oversight on the Ancients part..........OR a bit of an inconsistency on the part of the shows writers.......

And seeing as the Ancients are big-glowy-know-it-alls............i'll believe they got it right
The DHD is missing a symbol; the symbol for Aquila (the one that looks like the square root symbol). It's been like that since SG-1 began.

What's really going to twist your noodles is that the Stargates in Pegasus only have 36 symbols, and that includes the PoO. The DHDs in Pegasus still have 38 symbols, because they're reusing the same DHD prop from SG-1, so those DHDs have two symbols that are not used for any gate address.

I haven't seen a good picture of a Pegasus DHD yet, so I haven't been able to figure out which symbols are redundent.

_Owen_
June 16th, 2005, 07:09 PM
They probably only used thirty six because Pegasus is a smaller galaxy and not as many locations would be needed. As well, the Puddle Jumper DHDs have 38 because the puddle jumpers were originaly created in the Milky Way. For Pegasus, they could just remove symbols, and the extra ones would not work in pegasus, however if you only had thirty six and wanted to use the gates in the Milky Way, you would not be able to for many planets.

Owen Macri

6thMonolith
June 16th, 2005, 07:12 PM
Here's a fan site with some models of the Pegasus DHD:
http://www.chevron26.com/atlantis/planet/eplanets.html

I'll look for some screen caps of the DHD.

EDIT:
Found some Caps.

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/116/html/brotherhood443.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/116/html/brotherhood444.html

Looks like an entirely different DHD to me.

_Owen_
June 16th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Nice site!

Owen Macri

Jarnin
June 16th, 2005, 07:19 PM
They probably only used thirty six because Pegasus is a smaller galaxy and not as many locations would be needed.
Unless of course you wanted to dial a gate in the Milky Way. Then again, since you need a special control crystal to dial outside Pegasus, I don't think this is a problem.
Of course the real reason why there are only 36 symbols on the Pegasus gates is because a different company built the prop ;)


As well, the Puddle Jumper DHDs have 38 because the puddle jumpers were originaly created in the Milky Way.
Actually, the Puddle Jumper prop was created specifically for Stargate Atlantis, so they have 36 symbols. The one used in It's Good To Be King and Mobius pt 1 & 2 was just an Atlantis PJ with different symbols attached to the dash. However, it was also missing symbols because the PJ only has room for 36 symbols.

There's a couple pictures floating around this board that shows the dash of both PJs from Atlantis and SG-1. It's definately 36 symbols.

_Owen_
June 16th, 2005, 07:24 PM
Nice, I was talking within the Stargate universe, although props are the true reason for the symbols, etc. that is no fun, this Stargate!

36 symbols were used because the galaxy is smaller and there would not be as many possible locations.

Allthough the Puddle Jumper prop was created for Atlantis, the Ancients developed them in the Milky Way.

Owen Macri

6thMonolith
June 16th, 2005, 07:27 PM
They probably only used thirty six because Pegasus is a smaller galaxy and not as many locations would be needed. As well, the Puddle Jumper DHDs have 38 because the puddle jumpers were originaly created in the Milky Way. For Pegasus, they could just remove symbols, and the extra ones would not work in pegasus, however if you only had thirty six and wanted to use the gates in the Milky Way, you would not be able to for many planets.

Owen Macri

I have some proof!;)

There are thirty-seven keys on the Pegasus(different from MW, they were probably made in Peg) PJ DHD.

If you look at http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/104/html/104x006.html You can see 21 keys(there are none past the arm).

And, when you add the keys from http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/117/html/letters156.html You can see 16 keys. Adding them together, you get 37.

36 symbols and a PoO/enter key.

Jarnin
June 16th, 2005, 07:34 PM
36 symbols and a PoO/enter key.
Yeah, I suppose the BRB and PoO would have to be the same in a PJ, simply because the PJ can't possibly have all the unique PoO symbols for every planet in the Pegasus galaxy.

PrimalAscended
June 16th, 2005, 07:39 PM
The way i see it:

The reason a PoO is needed is the same reason you need to find out where someone is when they call for directions to, say, your house. If someone needs directions to your house, the first thing you ask them is "Where are you?" That way you can tell him or her where to go, based on their location.
The Point of Origin is sort of like "I am at the corner of Elm and First" and the first six chevrons of the gate address is like the directions you give to get to your house.

If that made any sense, i'll be surprised. ;)

A good analogy, but not quite right as I see it.......the gate "knows" where it is in relation to other gates (thanks to the wonders of correlative updates), therefore it doesn't need to be asked "where are you?" by the other gate.....so you don't need to enter a 7th symbol as PoO......in my little opinion.......even though you technically do in the show.....

From other stuff posted in the forums it seems the consensus is that the 6 initial glyphs designate a star system/volume of space for the sending gate to search for another gate..........the gate "knows" where it is and with the six glyphs "knows" where its going and just has to establish a wormhole through the space-time continuum.........no 7th glyph really required....

The gates are incredibly intuitive.........or am I just giving them too much credit??? ;)

But don't worry, my noodle is completely happy with 7 glyphs..........it just likes to know what other people think.....

_Owen_
June 16th, 2005, 07:53 PM
Yes, it is incredibly likley that on a puddle jumper the point of origin key would be a universal symbol that automatically dials the point of origin, of the gate that you are dialing, but the symbol would not be specific.

About the thirty six symbols, that would have to be an oversight by the props guys, the Puddle Jumpers were originally built in the Milky Way, therefore originaly used in the Milky Way, with thirty six symbols, that would not work. Allthough if Atlantis was built soley for the Pegasus galaxy, then the Puddle Jumpers could have been aswell. The problem is that you would only be able to dial some gates in the Milky Way, because the symbols wouldn't be there, with or without the control crystal.

Owen Macri

YodaMate
June 16th, 2005, 07:54 PM
Not so sure about the Gates been smart, i think the DHDs are the components with the awesome Ancient programming.

My theory is that the PoO system is a back-up for a manual dial (which is essentially what the SGC does every time they dial, they have to spin the inner wheel). Normally, the DHD takes care of the Gate's position in the galaxy, but if there's a problem with the DHD (say, if you lost yours ;) ) then you can manually put in the 7th Symbol as the PoO.

_Owen_
June 16th, 2005, 08:26 PM
The DHDs do have programming input into the crystals, however the gates themselves are somewhat intuitive.

The point of origin just gives the gate a point to lock the first end of the wormhole, it doesn't represent an area or a volume, it is a single point where the gate resides, it gives the wormhole a point to lock onto after it was generated, otherwise the artificial wormhole would either deactivate immediatley or it would become stable and the two ends would jump around the universe.

Owen Macri

swordfish
July 1st, 2005, 09:19 AM
oh! for cryin' out loud people! THE BRB IS NOT THE PoO!!! you have to dial ALL the 7 chevrons in order for the gate to activate its wormhole! if it were not so, each time somebody pressed the BRB they would have to wait for the circle of 39 symbols to turn, in order for the right symbol (the PoO) to come into place and then to be locked (which would take some time), and if u haven't noticed, when somebody does press the button, it almost instantaneously creates the wormhole! watch some more episodes to convince yourselves! the BRB somehow tells the gate to create the wormhole, possibly feeding it with the necessary energy, considering the number of chevrons encoded.

_Owen_
July 3rd, 2005, 07:24 PM
I am convinced, I knew that the red button was not the point of origin. However there are some flaws behind the behaviour of the stargate while dialing, by flaws I mean, they have changed the effects several times, but yes, obviously the red button is not he point of origin, this is certain, more than once have we observed a dial home device use seven symbols then require the red button to be pushed for the gate to activate, check out "Solitudes" of season one, I know there is a clear shot in there.

Owen Macri