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fair_nymph
June 3rd, 2005, 07:28 PM
Mods, if this has been done before, I couldn't find it when I did a search. If it has, obviously merge this and I'm sorry for starting a new thread in that case.

I'd like this thread to be polite and respectful. Please, no shipper or anti-shipper extremism, no bashing DDL (the actor), and no personal attacks. Anyone is welcome to post, whether they like this ship or not, provided they can do so in a mature manner. If you don't like Pete because it threatens S/J ship, or you love him because it DOES threaten S/J ship, this is not the place to voice those opinions. I'm much more interested in what you think about Sam and Pete in its own rights as a ship, and what you think about Pete in general.

I'll be honest, I really don't like Pete. My problems with Pete don't lie in his dating Sam (although, I agree that he has what I consider very negative effects on Sam's personality). I would have been FINE with Sam seriously dating Narim, Joe (the diplomat), Agent Barrett, or even Alec Colson. All of those men I respect and like, and they all have at least decent chemistry with Sam. I don't like Pete because I consider background checks a huge invasion of privacy, and I don't like people who can't respect someone's private boundaries. Plus, he was spying and following her around. Sure, he's been better since then, but his actions are unforgivable in my mind. I also don't like Pete because he thinks he's funny, but he's not, he comes off as insecure, and most of all, he just annoys the HECK out of me.

Many people have noted that Sam acts differently around Pete (in Affinity, largely), and I think this is absolutely true, and in part explains why I see their relationship as an unhealthy one. He seems controlling (jumping ahead with a proposal before they'd even discussed marriage, the stalker stuff), and I can see him turning into another Jonas (Sam's ex-fiance).

I also don't really see what common ground they share, either, to make the relationship work, beyond cops and military having some basic similarities. We've seen no indication that Sam and Pete have any shared interests (other than maybe dancing?) beyond that they both could die on the job at any time. Pete comes across as a nice guy most of the time, but I don't see what Sam's attraction to him is -- he's rather plain looking, isn't a genius or a huge hero, and doesn't seem particularily talented in any area. You might say he's funny (I disagree), and Sam does appear to laugh at his jokes, but is that enough to really carry a relationship?

Furthermore, Pete's rather forced and sudden proposal and Sam's hesitation make it obvious to me that they are not at all on the same page. Pete seems to want to get the ball rolling rather quickly, but Sam seems to be still figuring out how to juggle a relationship and work. I'd bet that as soon as they married (if they do), Pete will want to have some kids, and THAT would really interfere with Sam's career. Another issues, with the surprise proposal, is it seems they don't have the best communication. Pete didn't discuss his transfer to the Colorado Springs PD with Sam -- he just announced that it was happening. When Sam is deliberating on whether to accept Pete's proposal, she doesn't discuss her concerns with Pete, as she should.

All around the signs seem to point to Sam simply settling for Pete, after her 'I will never find love or have a family' scare in 'Grace'. He seems like an oka y guy so she figures, why not? But will Sam really be happy, and is it fair to Pete that she marry him not giving him her all, and not being absolutely totally in love with him, the way he seems to be in love with her?

I just don't see how Sam can have a happy ending with Pete. We know it doesn't have to be Jack, as we saw in 2010 -- she seemed very happy with Joe. So why has Pete been introduced? Simply to show Sam's longing, or even desperation, for love and a family?

yasureubetcha
June 3rd, 2005, 07:55 PM
I agreed with you up to Affinity. When Pete was introduced, he seemed absolutely pointless except as an alternative to Jack. I hated the implication that Sam needed a new man in order to be over Jack, as well as finding his "humor" annoying. I HATED him in Chimeara, and tolerated him in Affinity.
(Threads spoilers) But then Threads happened, and I couldn't help taking his side. For one thing, I found him funny for the first time in this episode. Also, he gets dumped on for being awkward around Jacob, but honestly how many people aren't somewhat nervous when meeting their intendeds' parents? Then there's the fact that the meeting was sprung on him, AND that his fiancee's father is an ALIEN, the existence of which he only learned relatively recently.
Then there's the way Sam is always putting him off. While I'm not a fan of Sam/Jack 'ship (which is all I'll say on the subject, I promise) what I dislike more is the way Sam trampled all over Pete's feelings in her indecision. Once you're engaged and planning your wedding is not the time to be deciding whether or not you really want to marry the man. 3 weeks, was it, that she wavered before accepting Pete's proposal? And after all that, she STILL backs out at the last minute. Even if Jack were not a factor, I would hate the way Sam treated Pete in Threads.
Regarding Pete's conduct toward Sam, the background check is admittedly creepy. However, honesty is as important in a relationship as privacy, and even though Sam COULDN'T be honest with Pete, he still had reason to be suspicious. Would it be better for him to continue to wonder what she was keeping from him, and never be able to trust her as a result?
The transfer to Colorado Springs, as well as the purchase of the house, I saw as sweet gestures proving that he is willing to put their relationship ahead of career concerns. This sharply contrasts with Sam's inability to treat her relationship with Pete anything but lightly, especially when it comes to her job. By the middle of Threads, I was forced to conclude that Sam didn't even deserve a sweet guy like Pete, despite his flaws.

Skydiver
June 3rd, 2005, 08:13 PM
pete himself, i didn't have an issue with in chimera...until the stakeout. in that, he went too far. I know that it was just sloppy writing and a plot hole. they needed him to get to daniel's house and see sarah and have the whole security issue, but since they never explained how he got there, it made him look like he was stalking sam

i do have ot admit that the whole 'stormingout because i didn't get my way' was a bit of a bad form too.

now what would have redeemed it would have been if sam had reamed his butt for it. his behavior was inappropriate and i don't think we ever saw him apologize.

now beyond that, well pete was pretty wishy washy. and i dont' say that to bash him. what i mean is that his personality is pretty easy going and sam's personality is rather forceful and, what i could see happening, was him giving into her, her 'ruling' over him, resentment building and the relationship not lasting

What i think they both were was:

sam came out of grace DETERMINED to have a 'normal' life. and she ws going to have it by hook or by crook and deliberately ignored her inner doubts to make it happen

i also think that pete was on the rebound from his ex and was desperate to recapture married life...and maybe saw sam, who i'm presuming, can be seen as 'better' than his wife - better in the 'dang he's divorced and look at the looker he's dating' - and he was DETERMINED to make it work. he was probably alone for the first time in a while and just realizing how lonely that can be and wanted to be married again to 'fix' his life

in a way, they were both using each other. sam used him to try and get her normal life, pete used her to try and fix his

I do have issues with how pushy he could be at times. We know that Death Knell happened a month after Evolution, and grace adn chimera happened within that month. in Grace, Sam had no one. but in chimera she's seriousy dating, so they're moving pretty fast. and pete, knowing Sam for a month, is pretty possessive to me. again, pete falls into a plot hole

All in all, i don't think that their relationship would have worked because sam would have tried to boss him, while he apparantly, liked to be the 'man' and boss her or sort of push his involvement into her life and i think the two of them might have lasted a couple of years at the most before they ended up in divorce court

IMHO, sam needs a man who's her equal and who isn't threatened by her. civilian or military, he's gonna have to accept that she's a leader in her own right and not be threatened by her success and contacts

fair_nymph
June 3rd, 2005, 08:28 PM
Thanks for using spoilers. I am up to Threads (just watched Reckoning part 2) so as soon as I've seen it (hopefully in the next couple days) I'll read that and respond. :)

fair_nymph
June 3rd, 2005, 08:37 PM
sam came out of grace DETERMINED to have a 'normal' life. and she ws going to have it by hook or by crook and deliberately ignored her inner doubts to make it happen
...

All in all, i don't think that their relationship would have worked because sam would have tried to boss him, while he apparantly, liked to be the 'man' and boss her or sort of push his involvement into her life
...
IMHO, sam needs a man who's her equal and who isn't threatened by her. civilian or military, he's gonna have to accept that she's a leader in her own right and not be threatened by her success and contacts

I absolutely agree, this is exactly what I meant by 'settling'.

I definitely see Pete's 'I'm the man' and more possesive/pushy side, but I hadn't thought about Sam's own forcefulness causing her to clash with Pete. Sam is weird, in that sometimes she's rather meek (maybe I get this impression because she has such respect for authority and nearly always follows orders) but other times she can be a real tiger. I get the impression though that she can be a bit submissive in romantic situations, based on what we know of her history with Jonas. So are you suggesting that she's progressed beyond this and is now much too self-aware and confident to allow a man to control her? I definitely would like to think so.

Sam MUST have a man who's her equal though, and there I agree. Otherwise any man she ends up with will end up feeling inferior no matter how secure he is. That's why I think Narim or Joe or Alec would have been great potential matches for her. I guess they could always still do something with Alec...

yasureubetcha
June 4th, 2005, 10:11 PM
I just rewatched Chimeara (in syndication) and I think I can finally clarify my reasons for disliking Pete. My problem is not the man himself, but the fact that he is completely irrelevant to the rest of the show. I am not saying, by any means, that Sam does not have the right to a personal life. But that personal life, unless it involves aliens, deadly peril, or perhaps the NID, is not the kind of thing that should comprise half of an episode. I certainly wouldn't have minded Sam having a new off-base boyfriend, if his involvement in the episode was as minimal as his involvement with the events on which Stargate is supposed to center. The elevator scene by itself would've served to convey the relevant information (Sam has a new interest, this makes her happy, and makes things awkward between her and Jack) without the need to make an episode full of sappy music out of it.
No one else's personal life, strictly as such, is used this way. Jack's issues with his son, for instance, are brought to the forefront by an alien child. Daniel's past relationship with Sarah is brought in by the Osiris jar, and subsequent events. Even Teal'c's off-base relationship is more relevant than Pete is, because it's mixed up with the NID. (Threads spoiler)Jack's relationship with Kerry is kept out of the way until "needed," because it is not relevant to anything regarding Stargate. Pete ought to be the same way, IMHO, but apparently Sam's personal life has become one of the the central conflicts of the show.:rolleyes: Stargate is science fiction, and IMHO any 'shipping that occurs (regardless of whom) should be relevant to that. If I wanted to see relationships for their own sakes, I would change the channel to something else.

fair_nymph
June 6th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Alright, finally finished season 8, w00t! So now I can respond to your comments about Threads: Unfortunately I still didn't find Pete funny, even here. I was also surprised by how oafish he came off in his meeting with Jacob. As a side note, something I hadn't noticed but that someone brought up in the Threads ep thread, was that Jacob lied about Selmak 'really liking Pete', as Selmak was in a coma by this time.

I don't think that Sam dumped Pete *at all* because of Jacob not liking Pete. I think she dumped him because he went and bought a HOUSE (and maybe even a dog?) without even discussing it with Sam -- yet another incident of him jumping the gun. Unlike you I didn't view this is a 'sweet gesture' on Pete's part, but yet another part of his 'pushy' behaviour. I agree that Sam shouldn't have accepted his proposal (by the same token, Pete shouldn't have accepted her acceptance -- if it wasn't immediate, that's a bad sign, and really obvious one). But even though Sam DID accept the proposal, there's no reason she should have to suddenly devote most of her time to the relationship. I thought it was pushy of Pete to keep trying to speed things up and force things -- clearly he was planning most of the wedding, he bought a house without asking here, etc. That gets into financial stuff too -- I'd be darn annoyed if my husband bought a house without asking me! IMO this was the straw that broke the camels' back and made Sam see the light.

One thing I do agree about -- Sam's atrocious treatment of Pete, both here and in Affinity. I don't think it was at all conscious or intentional, but that doesn't completely excuse it (although perhaps it is subconscious revenge for his 'stalking' in Chimera?). Ultimately I do feel that Pete is a nice guy (although too pushy, he isn't malicious), and I did end up feeling bad for him, even if his rejection was partly his own fault (being too pushy/not seeing obvious signs). I think he took the rejection as gracefully as possible and for that I'm glad -- it is the most redeeming action he has taken in my eyes.

I also agree about the prominence of the Sam/Pete relationship on the show. It's totally unnecessary and inappropriate. Hopefully we won't see more of this in the future.

Nessva
June 6th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Is the other thing worth considering here that we don't know the last time Sam actually had a long-term relationship? I don't remember them specifying how long ago it was that she was involved with Jonas, but that was season 1 (if I remember correctly) and I was under the impression that they hadn't seen each other for at least a few years before he joined the SGC, so that would make it at least 12 years since she'd had a serious relationship. Even if we only take into consideration the SG1 timeline, that's at least 8 years. Maybe she'd forgotten how to treat a partner, and/or never did learn the balance of life and work. Having a job at the SGC, such a full-on job, probably wouldn't have helped the situation. I'm not saying that any of this excuses the behaviour, but could it be a reason for it?

fair_nymph
June 6th, 2005, 12:09 PM
I definitely think that's part of it, Nessva. Seems like a typical thing for geeks/nerds too -- Sam's very very smart when it comes to intellectual matters but she can be a bit socially inept. She's certainly not the most balanced person, but then I wonder if any geniuses are?

SGLAB
June 6th, 2005, 02:10 PM
I saw this thread and liked that it's not a "Hate pete because he's not Jack" or "Love him because he's not Jack."

I agree with you fair nymph, Sam can be socially inept as well I think a bit emotionally immature. It's the only thing that explains to me her the way she handled things with Pete from the very beginning.

sg-1fanintn
June 6th, 2005, 02:43 PM
I believe that Sam's relationship with Pete failed because he was a substitute for the man she really wanted, but didn't think she could have. She did come out of Grace resolving not to wait for a time when she and O'Neill could act on their previously stated feelings. But she found Pete too conveniently soon afterwards.

The character of Samantha Carter is an honorable person. I think she really tried to love Pete, but they just weren't suited to each other. The closer she got to the wedding, the more she found herself trying to back away from the relationship. She ultimately realized it would be wrong to marry Pete because she would have been entering into the marriage just to have a "normal" life.....not because she truly loved him.

If a guy I had been dating for just a short time had done a background check on me and conducted a stakeout on my activities, that would have raised a red flag that I would have found too large to ignore. It would have said that this person might be controlling and lacked both self-confidence and the ability to trust someone. I would have ended the relationship right then and there. I fault Sam for not doing that, or at the very least, as Skydiver said, really taking Pete to task for it.

Whether you agree or disagree with the Jack/Sam relationship (and everyone is entitled to their opinion), I think the Sam/Pete relationship was doomed from the beginning. I do disagree that sci-fi should be devoid of personal relationships unless they relate to the sci-fi. Does that mean your characters could only interact with the "alien of the week," a la James T. Kirk? Unless characters are allowed to grow and react to the experiences and people around them, they become cardboard representations of what they started to be. In real life, we are all changed by the people we meet, whether they are co-workers, new friends or family members. It actually seems more realistic to me that relationships would change between characters over the years, as they do for all of us. But that's just what enhances the realism for me. I realize that not everyone shares my point of view. I just wanted to throw that idea into the discussion.

I bet we can all agree on one thing: July 15th can't get here soon enough!

fair_nymph
June 6th, 2005, 03:01 PM
It's that I am opposed to the members of SG1 having personal relationships that are not directly related to the storyline (and I think yasureubetcha would agree) -- it's more the prominence of the Sam/Pete relationship in eps like Chimera and Affinity.

We've seen bits of relationships other times -- Sam and Agent Barrett, in Threads Jack and Kerry, Teal'c and Krista, etc -- that were not directly related to sci-fi, but these didn't bother me because they weren't a MAJOR part of those episodes (with the possible exception of T/K).

In short it's not about whether such relationships should exist (they should IMO), but how much importance and screentime they should be given. Sam/Pete had way too much of both IMO.

Btw, what episode is that pic of S/J kissing from? I don't recognize it. It it's from S9 just say so but don't tell me any details please. :)

blueiris
June 6th, 2005, 03:11 PM
I agree somewhat to most of what I've read here. However, where I differ is in seeing Pete as controlling. Or at least, not controlling in the sense that you mean. He never seemed threatening as a controlling man does. I don't see Sam ever bending to his will in any way (and I know that with a controlling man, a woman will bend to his will in an effort, not to please him, but to appease him). Sam may not be completely adept in emotional relationships, but she seemed to me to be the dominate personality in that relationship, and that was not what Pete needed, or wanted, for that matter. It seemed to me that Pete may have interpreted Sam's lack of commitment as submissiveness. Because Sam's heart was not committed to the relationship, even if it was subconsciously, I think it was easier for her to ignor his misdeeds (acting without her imput, stalkerish behavior, for example). The relationship may have been important to Sam, a big step in her life. But never "heartfelt". Pete just seemed out of his league and nothing makes a person appear so oaffish as being out of their league. And he admitted to knowing there was someone else, but I guess he thought if he could just push it along, all that would disappear. A person in love makes foolish mistakes. Pete did. And so did Sam, only Pete was not the one she loved. I never hated Pete. Didn't like that he was with Sam, but ultimately, I felt sorry for him. A hopeless love. I wish him well (with someone else).

The scene when Pete met Jacob, I prefer to forget. I found that a little too much.

I'm not sure what I've expressed is clear.

yasureubetcha
June 6th, 2005, 03:41 PM
In short it's not about whether such relationships should exist (they should IMO), but how much importance and screentime they should be given. Sam/Pete had way too much of both IMO.
Yup...people do have relationships. But there are lots of facets of the characters' lives we don't see unless/until they are directly affected by the sci-fi storyline. Pete's only involvement with the storyline occurred at the very end of the episode, and it felt completely contrived.

I do see a lot of awkwardness between Sam and Pete, especially in Threads. And as much as I would love to attribute it to the fact that Fifth pretended to be Pete in New Order, and therefore Sam can't look him in the face without comparing him (to his disadvantage, I might add :D) to the sweetness that was Fifth, I very much doubt that is how TPTB meant it to be interpreted:p. But I also have a problem with a character existing (and especially being spotlighted) merely to serve as an indicator in the Sam/Jack situation. All of this is obviously only my opinion, but that's what I felt Pete was. I don't feel that he had any other relevance to life at the SGC, or the Stargate, which is what the show is, after all, supposed to be about. Character development should occur and be exposed within the plot, not go off on tangents for half an episode. I have no problem with Pete's existence, or his relationship with Sam, only with the fact that we were exposed to far too much of that relationship on camera, considering its (IMHO) irrelevance.

yasureubetcha
June 6th, 2005, 11:05 PM
I don't think that Sam dumped Pete *at all* because of Jacob not liking Pete. I think she dumped him because he went and bought a HOUSE (and maybe even a dog?) without even discussing it with Sam -- yet another incident of him jumping the gun. Unlike you I didn't view this is a 'sweet gesture' on Pete's part, but yet another part of his 'pushy' behaviour. I agree that Sam shouldn't have accepted his proposal (by the same token, Pete shouldn't have accepted her acceptance -- if it wasn't immediate, that's a bad sign, and really obvious one). But even though Sam DID accept the proposal, there's no reason she should have to suddenly devote most of her time to the relationship.

I have to disagree about the immediate acceptance idea. Committing to commit :p to a lifetime together is a huge thing. If I'd been dating someone for awhile and he proposed I would probably ask for a day or two. The time she took was, however, excessive, IMO.

And I'm not asking for most of Sam's time, just some pretense at commitment on her part. Some indication, perhaps, that she would RATHER spend some time with the man she's going to marry than hanging around at work, when she's not needed. And as far as Pete's wedding plans, I don't see them as pushy at all. I got the impression that he would much rather make them with her. She seems to be the one extricating herself from the whole business. I didn't see him as "speeding" or "forcing," merely doing what needed to be done (and what she could/would not do.) I saw that as accomodating, rather than pushy. I can kind of see your point about the house, however.

Nessva
June 7th, 2005, 01:54 AM
Perhaps this is getting off into a bit of a tangent, but what would the majority of fans say if the show ended without any attempt at showing that Sam can actually have a life? Let's face it, Jack has ordered her on at least one occasion to get a life!
I did hate how Sam & Pete were around each other in Threads, most especially when Pete met Jacob. It really served to prove that they didn't suit each other.

As to how much of this is shown/should be shown, well each person has their own opinion of this. Personally, when Affinity first aired I loved it because I felt us fans deserved an good 'personal' episode, and honestly, it was the first in 8 years, so I didn't see that as excessive. I think the problem started when they introduced Pete, because you can't start a storyline like that and not wrap it up properly.

I don't think we really saw any evidence that Sam was affected by Fifth imitating Pete. However, having said that, did anyone notice the similarity between Fifth's tantrum in the kitchen when he was pretending to be Pete, and Pete's reation when he & Sam were talking on the bench outside the house in Threads? I thoght there was a vague similarity which was interesting.

yasureubetcha
June 8th, 2005, 10:14 AM
I don't think we really saw any evidence that Sam was affected by Fifth imitating Pete. However, having said that, did anyone notice the similarity between Fifth's tantrum in the kitchen when he was pretending to be Pete, and Pete's reation when he & Sam were talking on the bench outside the house in Threads? I thoght there was a vague similarity which was interesting.
I was just joking about Fifth, really :p. I didn't really see much similarity there when I saw Threads, but I haven't seen it in awhile either.

fair_nymph
June 8th, 2005, 10:52 AM
Re Pete in Threads I thought Pete seemed really cool when he got rejected by Sam. I was impressed/pleasantly surprised by how reacted. He was calm and rational -- I guess he kind of saw it coming. Whereas Fifth freaked out and got a little violent when Sam said she could never be happy in his little world.