Would a gate on the moon work?

[SeaBee]

Here's a little point to ponder.

If a gate was moved onto the Moon would the Earth gate be able to connect to it? Or would it be too close?
We know that you can only use one gate at a time if there are two on the same planet, but how close can they be without interfering?

[Seastallion]

No it wouldn't work. Gate travel is between star systems, not within a single star system. There would be no way to dial a gate on the moon from the Earth. You could use a gate on the moon to go other places, but not to travel back and forth between the Earth and Moon directly. At the very least you'd have to travel to another star system and then double back. However, you'd also have to make sure that you'd actually connect to the gate on Earth, and not back to the moon, or vice-versa. So... the answer is No. The stargate just doesn't work like that. It would be much more efficient to set up a Ring Transporter on the moon, and then 'ring' back and forth to Earth like that.

[Anubis69]

That's a point i just remembered, remember in "jolinar's memories" and "the devil you know" bynarr rings from ne'tu to delmak, but would he then have to wait until the rings were aligned, ie. the planets were aligned so the rings were both facing each other? it would make a bit of sense given bynarr only ringed there every day and not whenever he wanted.

[immhotep]

the episode prodegy is based on a moon..........that would mean that stagates work on moons, also wasnt one of the tokra bases on a moon, vorash( the one in tokra pt1+2)?

[6thMonolith]

Here's a little point to ponder.

If a gate was moved onto the Moon would the Earth gate be able to connect to it? Or would it be too close?
We know that you can only use one gate at a time if there are two on the same planet, but how close can they be without interfering?

Probably not, it hasn't been addressed in the show, so we still don't know. I'll try to do an Owen/Seastallion-sized post here.

(I havn't seen this episode in awhile, so correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, please)
In Redemption, Pt. 2, the Stargate is being targeted by a new weapon of Anubis. Basically, energy is is keeping the wormhole open, and will cause the Earth 'gate to explode. To solve this, O'neill hurtles the 'gate into hyperspace for one second, using a '302. The wormhole stays connected throughout all of this, and explodes.

The Gateworld summary says

It's enough to get the ship millions of miles from Earth, where the Stargate explodes in a huge fireball. O'Neill is rescued, and the planet is saved.

A few million miles away probably wouldn't put the 'gate at the orbit of mars, which is 49 million miles away, being very lenient. And jupiter is MUCH further away. This places the gate a few million miles away, between here and mars, when it explodes.

Now, in Within The Serpent's Grasp, Daniel can't dial home when the ship jumped into Hyperspace, because the PoO wasn't valid. Now, applying this to Redemption, there are a few reasons that the 'gate did not disengage(or still exploded) after jumping into hyperspace.

1) Once a wormhole is connnected, and not disengaged, it can move around. If a gate is dialed and jumps to hyperspace, there is no evidence to prove that it should not engage. The wormhole would just track the 'gate, and follow it, keeping the two Stargates connected.

2)The 'gate did disengage. It was just so superpowered that it exploded(could have gained some energy from the Naquadria, hit some stellar dust, etc)

3)The PoO was still valid, even a few million miles away. This makes sense, because a planet is always moving around a sun(usually...), and a 'gate address works no matter where the 'gate is in that orbit. This means that no matter where the 'gate is whithin the area that an address covers(the PoO), the address will be valid.

<^^^ translates properties from an out-dialing gate to a recieving gate(Danies tried tol dial out in Within The Serpent's Grasp, and couldn't because the PoO wasn't valid. Nothing was ever mentioned about what would happen if a recieving 'gate's PoO would change.) No need to nitpick this fact, people>


So the Answer to your question(IMO): No. For a gate to connect to another 'gate, they have to be in two different places, with two different addresses(PoO's). Earth's PoO could extend a few million miles, and encompass the moon, making 'gate travel to the moon from Earth impossible. Phew!:p

[6thMonolith]

the episode prodegy is based on a moon..........that would mean that stagates work on moons, also wasnt one of the tokra bases on a moon, vorash( the one in tokra pt1+2)?

Yeah, they work fine anywhere, even in space. They just can't dial another 'gate with the same address/PoO.

[immhotep]

it said millions of miles away, not a few million miles away.......therfore it is unspecified how far away it went, however it took a ddep space radar to pick up the blast, surgesting it was outside our solar system or very near the edge.

[6thMonolith]

Earth is 93 million miles away from the sun, mars is 142,000,000 miles, Jupiter is 484,000,000 miles, Saturn is 887,000,000, and Uranus is 1,780,000,000 miles away. So, the 'gate could have gone anywhere from inside the orbit of Mars to just outside the orbit of Saturn. Then again, that's saying that the 'gate was headed directly out of the solar system. Thanks, Immhotep.

[Brian2103]

I'll give it a shot. If a gate was on Earth and the Moon, the two gate could not connect to eachother because they have the same point of origin, and that makes the gate network think that the gate is basically on the same planet, or relatively close.

Both gates would be able to function normally provided they don't dial or receive while one's wormhole is open. And of course if one had a DHD 'plugged in' to it, that would be the gate that would receive the incoming wormholes.

The same thing would be true for any planet in the solar system I believe.

[6thMonolith]

^just summarized my entire post

[Seastallion]

it said millions of miles away, not a few million miles away.......therfore it is unspecified how far away it went, however it took a ddep space radar to pick up the blast, surgesting it was outside our solar system or very near the edge.

Um.... Actually, if I recall correctly... the explosion could be seen from Earth. I seem to remember clearly that the 302 entered hyperspace and the gate was seen exploding from Earth. (I just watched the episode on my DVD player "Redemption" part 2.) Yes, it WAS seen from Earth exploding. Therefore it was only a few million miles away, and not even close to being outside of the solar system. The escort fighters for O'Neill were flying in the air looking for his parachute, when they report seeing "fireworks" (and the episode actually shows the explosion), and then the SGC gets a report from Deepspace Telemetry to confirm the explosion. The stargate was only sent a relatively short distance away from Earth, just enough to not do any damage. :)

[6thMonolith]

So, if we could figure out how long it took from O'neill sending the 'gate into Hyperspace to the explosion, we could probably figure out the distance that it traveled.

[Brian2103]

Forgetting though that this was an overly super-charged Naquadah stargate. Being able to see it doesn't mean it was close, just means it was big.

[Mr Prophet]

Forgetting though that this was an overly super-charged Naquadah stargate. Being able to see it doesn't mean it was close, just means it was big.

The pause between the launch and the visible blast was a few seconds, I think, so the Gate exploded very close to the Earth, astronomically speaking; a handful of light-seconds away.

ETA: It actually states that the detonate was 'over three million miles from Earth'.

[6thMonolith]

My attempt at a diagram(of the day the episode was aired):

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/6thMonolith/4d6507d4.jpg

[_Owen_]

It is negligible that you would be able to dial the moon from the Earth, simply because technically the stargate is still within the oribt of Earth, even if it is on another spatial body.

Owen Macri

[Seastallion]

My attempt at a diagram(of the day the episode was aired):

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/6thMonolith/4d6507d4.jpg

The explosion was seen from the dayside. Also, Mr. Prophet is right... they did say it was "over 3 million miles from Earth", and assuming it wasn't over 4 Million miles away, that is very close by. As in, close by like the moon-close-by... not Mars, or Jupiter. The explosion was still VERY close to Earth, but far enough away to not do any damage.

[6thMonolith]

Somewhere in that little circle is 3 million miles. The earth is 93 million away from the sun, so 3 seems like nothing. I guess that it's far enough away not to cause any damage, but boy, was it close to earth.

[Mr Prophet]

Somewhere in that little circle is 3 million miles. The earth is 93 million away from the sun, so 3 seems like nothing. I guess that it's far enough away not to cause any damage, but boy, was it close to earth.

Well, shockwaves aren't an issue in space and we have that nifty atmosphere - well, what's left of it - to block the radiation.

[_Owen_]

If I missed the point completly please correct me. You were trying to say that because the gate did not deactivate after it left Earth that the stargate would be able to stay active pretty far away from Earth, at least past the moon. However it has been theorized and seems as though once wormhole has connected with a stargate it stays locked on the gate, once it has connected you could move the gate to a ship and fly that ship to the other side of the universe and the only reason that it would deactivate is if you crossed the 38 minute deadline. The only way that you could disconnect a wormhole is by discharging a large amount of energy into the Stargate, as seen in the episode "A Matter of Time."

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

If I missed the point completly please correct me. You were trying to say that because the gate did not deactivate after it left Earth that the stargate would be able to stay active pretty far away from Earth, at least past the moon. However it has been theorized and seems as though once wormhole has connected with a stargate it stays locked on the gate, once it has connected you could move the gate to a ship and fly that ship to the other side of the universe and the only reason that it would deactivate is if you crossed the 38 minute deadline. The only way that you could disconnect a wormhole is by discharging a large amount of energy into the Stargate, as seen in the episode "A Matter of Time."

Owen Macri

(The gate in Redemption did pass the 38 minute mark)
All theories(except for the energy discharge thing). Here are the three theories that I like about what happened to the Gate in Redemption.

1) Once a wormhole is connnected, and not disengaged, it can move around. If a gate is dialed and jumps to hyperspace, there is no evidence to prove that it should not engage. The wormhole would just track/latch onto the 'gate, and follow it, keeping the two Stargates connected.

2)The 'gate did disengage. It was just so superpowered that it exploded(could have gained some energy from the Naquadria, hit some stellar dust, etc)

3)The PoO was still valid, even a few million miles away. This makes sense, because a planet is always moving around a sun(usually...), and a 'gate address works no matter where the 'gate is in that orbit. This means that no matter where the 'gate is whithin the area that an address covers(the PoO), the address will be valid.

[_Owen_]

The only reason that it passed the thirty eight minute mark was because of the ancient weapon.

1) This seems very likley.

2) Not so much, but it is possible.

3) It really depends in which direction the gate traveled away from Earth.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

The only reason that it passed the thirty eight minute mark was because of the ancient weapon.

1) This seems very likley.

2) Not so much, but it is possible.

3) It really depends in which direction the gate traveled away from Earth.

Owen Macri

Uh, the 'gate travled a measely 3 million miles. I have an attempt to diagram this:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/6thMonolith/4d6507d4.jpg

(the date is the origional air date)
We know that the 'gate went off into the daytime sky, so the little circle is a good guess to where it blew up.

[_Owen_]

That makes sense... The only way we will know how large the area is in which the gate will activate, is when they tell us in the show, so we don't really have anything to argue, I argued with Seastallion for a couple pages about it and we got no where. Only did we make progress when we realised that it was a topic that we could not argue.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

Well, it's at least three million+ miles, thats for sure.

[_Owen_]

Oh, deffinetly, you can tell by estimating the size that the resulting explosion would be then measuring the size that the explosion was from your perspective. I estimate that the explosion would have been incredibly immense, however from Earth it looked like a simple nuclear weapon. So I imagine that it was at least that far away.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

Well, it said "over 3 million miles away" in the episode, and didn't cause that much damage.

[_Owen_]

I don't believe that the gate exploding would cause to much damage to anyone three million miles away.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

unless it set off something even bigger :D (Season 4's Chain Reaction)

[_Owen_]

Ya, good point.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

But it didn't cause any damage. Just put on a good fireworks show. :P

[_Owen_]

I actually haven't seen "Chain Reaction" in quite a while, so I don't remember it to well.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

Neither have I. I just read the Gateworld summary. They blew up a planet(almost on purpose) testing the Naquadah bomb, and radiation started pouring through the gate. Earth was saved once more by SG-1. Go figure.

[Atteria]

I don't believe that the gate exploding would cause to much damage to anyone three million miles away.

Owen Macri

Question, please. Have they ever proven that a gate can be "blown up"? :S

[6thMonolith]

In redemption, the 'gate was definatly blown up. They're pretty tough, one survived crashing into the Atlantic from Thor's ship, but they can explode. One huge explosion.

[_Owen_]

Yes, 6th is right. A gate has exploded before, but they are incredibly storng. Simply firing towards the Earth from orbit will not do anything. For the gate to explode it needs to overload, it has to have to much energy stored than it a can deal with, so in "Redemption" when Anubis blew up the gate, he used an ancient device that slowly fired energy particles into the Stargate itself, effectivly overloading it.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

Or the Naquadah in the gate has to somehow take part in a controlled/uncontrolled fission/fusion explosion. Big bang either way.

[_Owen_]

That is true. Or the gate could come into contact with antimatter, that would do it.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

Or you could stick it inside of an even bigger 'gate and dissconect the power sources before it rematerializes.

[_Owen_]

I guess that would work, lol, but it wouldn't realy explode.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

No, but it'd be gone...

[_Owen_]

That is true.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

one million and one ways to blow up Atlantis AND a stargate

I see it happening. :D

[_Owen_]

Lol, it could work.

Owen Macri

[6thMonolith]

For a thread that's already been answered, we're pretty far off topic.

[_Owen_]

Ya, lol.

Owen Macri

[BackStageJim]

I think it would work as a gate location, but one couldn't gate from Earth to Moon, that is for rings. The distance from Earth to Moon is not too vast considering your gateing from another galaxy. And since we showed gates work in various environments (water, space) the Moon being 1/6 the gavity it's better then space.

[PrimalAscended]

Going back to the PoO area size part of the discussion............thats one helluva huge area the PoO covers.......seeing as the Earth rotates around the sun, and thats 93 million miles away........so each orbit is a rough circle with a radius of 93 million miles!! HUGE area (and yeah I know the Earth's orbit is more elliptical, just making things more simple!!)
Oh, and add the fact the Sun is moving through the Milky Way as it rotates......which in turn is rotating......
Thats one helluva lock on once the wormhole is established ;)

EDIT: Maybe I don't mean PoO area, but the area the gate address covers......still, its a damn big area to cover!!!!

[Hudson]

if you put the beta gate (lets pretend its still here) on the moon, trick a go`uald into comming to a "summit" or something, then hook a DHD to it, it will become the primary gate for the system = dead system lord :D

[_Owen_]

Yes, this would be the gate adress area, the point of origin is simply a single point that takes up no area and no volume, it is simply located exactly where the gate is, however the gate must be within the specified location that is used by the adress for the point of origin to work.

Owen Macri

[BloomGate]

I think the answer has to be that it would work outgoing for sure, but we don't know if it would conflict with the Earth's PoO.

The problem is that we don't really know how the PoO things works. If each DHD has a unique symbol for their PoO so the gate network isn't limited to the 39 dialing symbols as PoOs, then the PoO thing can be different in locations that are close.

When Daniel dialed another world with the stargate on Klorel's ship, did he use the unique PoO symbol on that DHD, or did it have a button for the earth PoO which looks like an uncrossed A with a little o at the top?

We only have 3 different gates dialing from Earth's location and all 3 had different dialing devices. The SG1 dialing computer uses the symbols learned from writings from the ruins in egypt. Don't the Russians have the DHD that is supposed to dial that gate via the Nazis? That would give them the same PoO. Daniel might have dialed the unique symbol on the DHD as the PoO.

This brings us to the inability to dial in hyperspace. I think that since the gate network communicates between all the gates is like a peer-to-peer network, it's impossible to connect to the network while in hyperspace because you can't establish a connection to the network. It's like trying to use a cell phone on an airplane flying at 300 mph. You aren't close enough to one tower long enough to establish a connection so you can dial.

The one other issue is how a gate maintains a connection while moving. I think that once a wormhole is established, it works until it disconnects period. Just because you can't establish a connection while in hyperspace, it doesn't mean a connection won't stay established in hyperspace. I'm sure it would be going against the manufacturers specifications because you might tear through suns along the way, the cases in which this was done, there was no valuable matter travelling through so that wasn't a concern.

All input is appreciated. I'm either dead on with this, or there is something very important missing from my analysis methinks. :D

[_Owen_]

I think the answer has to be that it would work outgoing for sure, but we don't know if it would conflict with the Earth's PoO.


Ok, first, I think you mean Earths' symbols, not the point of origin. You see, the point of origin, has been thrown around so many times in the show and used in so many diffrent contexts, no one really understands what it is or how it works.

For example, in the season two premier when Daniel says he used Earths' point of origin because he was close enough to Earth, is wrong. This not only helped to confuse how the point of origin works, but also how the actual symbols work. By saying this, he made it sound like he dialed the tradmarked "A" symbol, from Klorels ship, when actually he used the symbol that was unique to Klorels gate.

It really helped to confuse how the point of origin works. A point, by definition takes up no area, and no volume, it is simply a point, so when the gate dials the point it simply represents a point near the stargate, so the sending end of the wormhole has a general area to lock onto, the gate then generates the wormhole near that point and the gate attracts it, like lighting and a lighting rod. The six symbols identify a volume that would contain the stargate, or to satisfy Seastallion, a point near the gate, either way, the wormhole would be directed to that point in space and then be atracted to the gate.

When Daniel dialed from Klorels' ship he did not use Earths' point of origin, in fact the only thing that represents Earths' point of origin is the symbol, Earths' point of origin differs each time they dial.

Theoretically a gate could dial from anywhere, the point of origin would still be located in or near the stargate. BloomGate is right, you cannot get a lock while in transit because by the time you have pushed the point of origin symbol, and moved your hand up or down to the red button, you have already travelled to far away from the point of origin.



The one other issue is how a gate maintains a connection while moving. I think that once a wormhole is established, it works until it disconnects period. Just because you can't establish a connection while in hyperspace, it doesn't mean a connection won't stay established in hyperspace. I'm sure it would be going against the manufacturers specifications because you might tear through suns along the way, the cases in which this was done, there was no valuable matter travelling through so that wasn't a concern.

This seems to be the concensus, it also seems the logical explination, the gate will attract the wormhole like a lightning rod, so while traveling through hyperspace it would also continue to attract the wormhole, it would "hold on" to the wormhole while the gate is moving.

The gate does this all of the time, it is constantly moving great distances, at great speeds, even when on a planet. The Earth is rotating at great speeds, as well, it is orbiting around the sun at great speeds, not great enough to "dislocate" the point of origin from the gate, as it would in hyperspace travel, but with a 38 minute lock the one end of the wormhole, would move past the gate, if the wormhole remained stationary than the gate would continue moving and travel completley past the wormhole.

The Earth moves around the sun at approximatley 107 300 kph or 67 062 mph, in approximatley 30 minutes, the Earth would move 53 650 kilometers or 33 531 miles. The wormhole be that distance from the gate in 30 minutes.

Owen Macri

[briguy213]

maybe if you stick a unique symbol on the gate on the moon.

[Mr Prophet]

maybe if you stick a unique symbol on the gate on the moon.

Sam couldn't dial the SGC's Gate from Antarctica and the Antarctic Gate had a different PoO.

[Quakerbone]

The PoO symbols themselves make no difference- that's just part of the dialing system. EX: Take a normal, 0-9 digit phone pad, then change the "0" with an "A". It would still dial the same thing.

The unique symbol for each area mostly for figuring out the PoO coordinate when manual dialing. This is part of what Daniel had to figure out in the movie. The Egypt gate symbol >o works the same as the ) o symbol on the Antarctica one.

(Why don't we just set up a thread or page explaining every aspect of the Stargate's operation? Might take some fun out of posting, but would clear up A LOT of problems)

[_Owen_]

I pretty much agree with Quakerbone, however about the phone numbers, replacing the "0" with an "A" would only achieve the same number if every telephone in the world new, that the "A" meant "0." Unless of course you are suggesting that you simply pop out the "0" key and replace it with an "A" key, in that case, you are right, you would be dialing the same phone number. Unless your phone used a base of math, higher than ten, then the "A" would represent the unique number after "9," still that is if your phone realised that the key had been chenged.

Owen Macri

[SeaBee]

So, the consensus is that the Moon would be too close, but what would the minimum distance between gates be?

[_Owen_]

The minimum theoreticall distance would vary. As long as the two Stargates were not in an intersecting orbit, like Neptune and Pluto (there orbits allow them to switch places). The moon enters into Earths' orbit, which is why a Stargate would not work on it as well as Earth. Obviously a Stargate would not work in a seprate orbit, 30 centimeters away from Earth, so use your common sense, and as long as they don't cross into each others' orbits they would work.

Just a note: this is how close the Stargates would theoretically work, I know that some people (Seastallion) believe that the Stargates are identified in a diffrent manner, however, theoretically, Stargates could be identified as stated in my oppinion.

Owen Macri

[Colonel Sharp]

Well think about it, the closest planet with a stargate to Earth is Abydos, right? I'm not sure what the distance is but someone has to know...

[Mr Prophet]

So, the consensus is that the Moon would be too close, but what would the minimum distance between gates be?

I usually assume that Stargates lock on using the gravitational effects of stellar masses as a reference of sorts, so basically one per solar system and no interstitial locks, barring funk. YMMV.

[_Owen_]

Yes, this is the other side of the theory, which is also a possibility, I am not disputing this, both are viable possibilities. However with the type of configuration, which I have suggested you would be permitted more than one Stargate per solar system.

Owen Macri

[Seastallion]

Just a note: this is how close the Stargates would theoretically work, I know that some people (Seastallion) believe that the Stargates are identified in a diffrent manner, however, theoretically, Stargates could be identified as stated in my oppinion.

Owen Macri

I heard that... :p

I won't even go into the whole 'orbit' and 'volume of space' thing again. I'll just repeat; It doesn't matter where the Stargate is in the system... Mercury, Earth, the Moon, Mars, or Pluto... the gate will work. But only to other star systems, never within the same system. The Stargate doesn't require any kind of special orbit or location with a given star system... it just has to be physically present and unobstructed, and it will work just fine. Nothing more complicated. :)

Oh... and by-the-by... you can still have more than one Stargate in a single star system. You just can't be certain of which gate you'll come back to when leaving the star system, unless you have it set up so that only one of the stargates has a DHD attached to it, giving it priority over the others. However, if more than one Stargate has a DHD hooked up to it, than any one of those stargates could act as the return gate at random. That is why you only have one stargate per system in general. To avoid that sort of confusing situation. That is why it is a virtual miracle that the Russians would've been able to run their program in secret for as long as they did (which wasn't that long actually). It would have been awkward if an SG team suddenly found itself arriving on Earth in the Russian facility, or a Russian team 'trying' to arrive on Earth through the SGC... as they'd end up being 'splattered' across the Iris. Eeewww...! :p LOL

THAT is why they don't have more than one gate... it gets confusing, and is just plain awkward. Having just one gate is much more simple. ;)

[_Owen_]

Ok, we will agree to disagree, even though it would be simpler to have only one gate per system, it would also be more complicated to set it up my way, but I like complicated, and it would allow for more varied travel.

Owen Macri

[sg1 volgman]

No it wouldn't work. Gate travel is between star systems, not within a single star system. There would be no way to dial a gate on the moon from the Earth. You could use a gate on the moon to go other places, but not to travel back and forth between the Earth and Moon directly. At the very least you'd have to travel to another star system and then double back. However, you'd also have to make sure that you'd actually connect to the gate on Earth, and not back to the moon, or vice-versa. So... the answer is No. The stargate just doesn't work like that. It would be much more efficient to set up a Ring Transporter on the moon, and then 'ring' back and forth to Earth like that.
between star systems? what about a gate on a ship traveling between two star systems?

[Seastallion]

between star systems? what about a gate on a ship traveling between two star systems?

It depends if your traveling in hyperspace at the time or not. If you were, I doubt that you'd be able to do it. If you were not, then yes, you could dial out as long as you were dialing a valid gate address. The gate uses the address to target the destination gate, whereas the Point of Origin symbol specifies the specific gate you are using, regardless of where it is currently. So yeah... it would work. :)

[_Owen_]

Theoretically it could be done, but it would require many things to happen in a very small amount of time.

First you would need to do a premature coorelative update, updating for a position that the gate does not occupy, a position that the gate will occupy, at the time the dialing sequence is complete, then the gate would dial, now you would need a computer to dail the gate, so it could dial at a certain speed, this would be required to perform the coorelative update, and predict the position at which the gate will occupy, the position which the coorelative update inputs. Then the gate would need to start dialing at the exact nanosecond required, and then it still may not complete the sequence. There is still the fact that hyperspace is another layer of the universe and it is incredibly likley that the stargates cannot dial "inter-layerly," into hyperspace, you would surley need to compensate for this as well, so you would also need the gate to open a hyperspace window, so it could reach the gate.

So it is possible, many things are required though.

Owen Macri