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thor's first prime
May 16th, 2005, 08:06 PM
I don't think the zpm produces a lot of prower as it took 3 zpm to power the entire city of atlantis. According to mckay, atlantis was about the same size as manhattan and it took one zpm to power the outpost in antartica. Imagine power our entire planet, how much zpm would we need to do so?

6thMonolith
May 16th, 2005, 08:42 PM
The ZPM produces amazing amounts of energy. It only took one ZPM to power Atlantis for over 3,000 years. A single ZPM probably could power our planet for quite awhile, it all depends on how depleted the ZPM is.

~Thor~
May 17th, 2005, 04:51 AM
Well altough atlantis might be the same size as manhatten it would require a lot more power. There tech is more advanced so it will suck more power (and use it more efficiently but overall take more), as well as a huge shield, and various other stuff which we will see in seasons to come, etc etc etc.

Seastallion
May 17th, 2005, 07:43 AM
A lot. :p

_Owen_
May 17th, 2005, 02:03 PM
you took the words out of my mouth, or fingers, ~Thor~. I agree You can only compare Atlantis to Manhattan in size, the energy usages would be quite diffrent. One ZPM could probably power our entire planet for quite a while.

Owen Macri

Mio
May 18th, 2005, 01:07 AM
The power output from a ZPM could conceivably blow up our solar system if channeled incorrectly. (See Zero Hour)

immhotep
May 18th, 2005, 08:15 AM
the ZPM is the most powerfull PS in the known universe, how can it not produce much energy, if you plugged a ZPM in to manhatten it would take about 10,000 to run out of gas not the 3000 years it took for it to burn out in atlantis. atlantis is manhatten in size and notin else, except possible the caffine consumtion( makcay :) )
a ZPM can produce enough energy to power the most advanced citys in the known universe with full shield for over 3000 years. 1 zpm power taonas for ages, then released from dormantcy one of the largest drone swarms the anceints ever had
(presumable it was a large swarm), then opened up a wormhole to pegasus, in addition to any use before taonas.
basicly if we plugged in a zpm to say the uk or us national grid, wed be running on vacume/ZPM energy until we built our own stargate and traveled to the stars in hataks. the zpm is probebly the most advanced power source there is( built by the most advanced race), if we learned how to build or create ZPMs we would never have powercutts again.

dennycrane
May 18th, 2005, 10:45 AM
people, you say zpm sucks because it takes three to power up atlantis yet you fail to realize that with these three zpms a city the size of manhattan travelled from one galaxy to another far far away. think of the miles per zpm.

immhotep
May 18th, 2005, 10:52 AM
dont put it that way , if you make atlantis/manhatten compassion atlantis is the equivalent of about 5 manhattens, even without the tech and shield.

dennycrane
May 18th, 2005, 10:56 AM
i meant for the weight/load. The energy to drag manhattan(weight is equivallent if you take into consideration the fact that atlantis has little teleporters while manhattan has big heavy subways and lots of cars) through the void between galaxies. That's equivalent to 1 gagillion hamsters on wheels.

immhotep
May 18th, 2005, 11:29 AM
well if im correct atlantis is made from trinium, so for every 100 tonnes manhatten weighs, atlantis would weigh 1, in that case atlantis is alot small, in mass than mannhatten.

_Owen_
May 18th, 2005, 11:53 AM
In space weight is non existent unless effected by the gravitational field of a planetary, solar, or other spatial body. In space Atlantis would weigh less than you do.

You can only compare manhattan to atlantis in size. The power consumptions would be incredibly diffrent, Manhattan would require far less energy than Atlantis. Three ZPMs could power Manhattan for hundreds of millions of years at least, not 10 000.

Owen Macri

6thMonolith
May 18th, 2005, 06:04 PM
In space weight is non existent unless effected by the gravitational field of a planetary, solar, or other spatial body. In space Atlantis would weigh less than you do.

Owen Macri

Yes, but there is still inertia to consider. It takes a phenominal amount of energy to move Atlantis, none the less send it on an intergalactic voyage. The Asgard ships can only barely maintain top speed by shutting down all other systems and routing them to the engines.

Col. Newman
May 18th, 2005, 06:08 PM
the Ancients had a Crap load of power and has anybody ever heard of inertial dampeners

6thMonolith
May 18th, 2005, 06:14 PM
That basicly explains the thread how much power does the zpm produce?


a Crap load of power

_Owen_
May 18th, 2005, 07:14 PM
Lol, that pretty much covers it!

Asgard ships are incredibly fast, watch some episodes with the asgard, they will be in deep space, Thor will move one of those cool rocks, and then the viewscreen will zoom in on Earth! I would say that is pretty fast, they wouldn't need to sustain this for bery long, they can make the galactic jump between Ida and the Milky way in two or three seconds flat!

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
May 18th, 2005, 07:27 PM
they can make the galactic jump between Ida and the Milky way in two or three seconds flat!
I know the asgard ships are fast but i don't think they r that fast

_Owen_
May 18th, 2005, 07:38 PM
Watch the Season 6 episode "Unatural Selection" I believe that it is this episode in which the jump between the Ida and Milky way galaxy is shown or it could be the season eight episode "New Order Pat I" I am sorry that I don't remember which it is, who knows it could be both.

Suffice it to say there is a scene in an episode when an asgard ship trnasverses a great distance in the time it takes to blink three times.

Owen Macri

Nurgle
May 19th, 2005, 09:33 AM
The ep. where the ship travels between galaxies in a few seconds is "Small Victories", but later episodes show Asgard ships moving at a much slower space. In "The Reckoning Pt I" it seems the Danial Jackson is taking quite a long time to get from the battle with the replicator ships to Earth.

immhotep
May 19th, 2005, 10:54 AM
well the one from small victories was a warship that was the flagship of the asgard fleet that was closer to our galaxy( in the void between in fact) so it would travel alot faster than the daniel jackson, which was a research vessel.

_Owen_
May 19th, 2005, 11:55 AM
How about we just say, that they are faster than we know, because we don't know how fast they are.

Owen Macri

thor's first prime
May 20th, 2005, 09:51 PM
ok, so you prove that the zpm has a lot of energy, but what about the naquadah generators, how much energy do they produce. in the siege, part 2 the mention that they were able to increase the output to 600% of the original generators, how much is that in quantity?

_Owen_
May 21st, 2005, 09:48 AM
600% does seem like a lot, however the only way they were to achieve this means was by operating the generator at a state of barley controlled overload, which in turn provided its' demise.

We don't know how much energy is released by a naquadah generator, however it is an incredibly small fraction of that which is released from the ZPM.

Owen Macri

immhotep
May 21st, 2005, 10:01 AM
the ZPM can suposable create almost unlimited energy, actoring to some, as such it just show how much energy atlantis requires.
600% powered a tiny part of the city for about 2 hours, wheras 5 normal ones powered it for 3 months, doesnt make sense to me.
the city need tremendous amounts of energy and the only thing that can meet that is probebly a zpm and therfor can create alot of energy.

An Ancient
May 21st, 2005, 10:20 AM
The 600% reactor was needed just to power the chair...

_Owen_
May 21st, 2005, 11:07 AM
And then it only activated the chair once, the second time, it broke!

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
May 21st, 2005, 11:59 AM
they should have brought a back up. but then what fun would the show be if everyone did intelligent things

_Owen_
May 21st, 2005, 12:26 PM
Lol, you have a good point.

I don't think that they brought a back up because they only had time to make one, already being aware of the Wraith threat on Atlantis.

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
May 21st, 2005, 12:29 PM
well they could have had two teams of "Egg Heads" working on one each

_Owen_
May 21st, 2005, 12:51 PM
That would be the smart thing to do but as you said


what fun would the show be if everyone did intelligent things

Owen Macri

Mio
May 22nd, 2005, 04:25 AM
The ep. where the ship travels between galaxies in a few seconds is "Small Victories", but later episodes show Asgard ships moving at a much slower space. In "The Reckoning Pt I" it seems the Danial Jackson is taking quite a long time to get from the battle with the replicator ships to Earth.

We don't know where they are going. For all we know, they could be hopping over 6 or 7 galaxies.

An Ancient
May 22nd, 2005, 09:07 AM
The new Asguard homeworld is in an unspecified galaxy, which location we don't know.

Wass
May 22nd, 2005, 09:29 AM
The new Asguard homeworld is in an unspecified galaxy, which location we don't know.
I think they live in the same galaxy as before just another planet.

immhotep
May 22nd, 2005, 09:47 AM
well in the last few season theyve had abotu 4 new homeworlds! i think well see it in S9, with our intergalatic engine, oniel will go visit thor just to ask if he wants to go fishing!

Mio
May 22nd, 2005, 11:38 AM
I think they live in the same galaxy as before just another planet.

It was never specified, however, given the incredible ability the Asgard have to get from the Milky Way to their home galaxy in just a few minutes, and the trip to Orila took quite a bit of time, its reasonable to assume that the Asgard moved their new planet to a galaxy far far away to protect it.....

_Owen_
May 23rd, 2005, 04:54 PM
I agree, with the Replicators dominating the Ida Galaxy it would not be safe, smart, nor logical to remain with you homeworld in that vicinity.

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
July 24th, 2005, 10:40 AM
This seems like the appropriate thread.

The Taonas ZPM was essentially depleted after activating the attack on Anubis's fleet and one gate travel between earth and atlantis.

Ra's ZPM has, so far, opened 2 (probably 3 or more) wormholes between earth and atlantis, powered the Daedulus very quickly between earth and Atlantis once, and powered the city shield against a significant and draining Wraith attack. How much longer can Ra's ZPM last, especially if they desire to open more wormholes between atlantis and earth?

(Of course we do not know the relative condition of these two ZPM's when they were first acquired by SG-1)

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 10:47 AM
I believe that Ras' ZPM had never been, or almost never been used, from the sounds of it. At least it hadn't been used by Ra. I believe even though they made it sound like the ZPM was loosing a lot of power, it wasn't actually, the ZPM seems to have more power than we can imagine, and if a hyperspace trip a wormhole and a few billion shots by the Wraith are to much for it, maybe we need a new power source.

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
July 24th, 2005, 12:32 PM
This seems like the appropriate thread.

The Taonas ZPM was essentially depleted after activating the attack on Anubis's fleet and one gate travel between earth and atlantis.

Ra's ZPM has, so far, opened 2 (probably 3 or more) wormholes between earth and atlantis, powered the Daedulus very quickly between earth and Atlantis once, and powered the city shield against a significant and draining Wraith attack. How much longer can Ra's ZPM last, especially if they desire to open more wormholes between atlantis and earth?

(Of course we do not know the relative condition of these two ZPM's when they were first acquired by SG-1)The Taonas ZPM was almost totally depleted even before they used it, so if you want to think about it like a gas tank they were running on fumes, please refer to the first line of my sig :rolleyes:

Dazmeister
July 24th, 2005, 12:59 PM
Hmmm. Thiz ZPM information intrests me.

In the siege part 3, McKay explained that if the wraith kept attacking atlantis, the cities shields would only sustain for 3 or 4 days. This is drastically contrasting to the fact that a previous ZPM powered the cities shields for 10,000 years.

Like owen said, its doubtful that much power was used in gating to pegasus, and bringing the daedalus there quicker, therefore why would McKay say the shields would only last for that short amount of time?

Col. Newman
July 24th, 2005, 01:13 PM
Hmmm. Thiz ZPM information intrests me.

In the siege part 3, McKay explained that if the wraith kept attacking atlantis, the cities shields would only sustain for 3 or 4 days. This is drastically contrasting to the fact that a previous ZPM powered the cities shields for 10,000 years.

Like owen said, its doubtful that much power was used in gating to pegasus, and bringing the daedalus there quicker, therefore why would McKay say the shields would only last for that short amount of time?well I was surprised by that but it would take a crap load more energy to sustain the shield when the wraith are bombarding it with energy weapons then just a constant pressure that could have been compensated for

mightydefiant
July 24th, 2005, 01:28 PM
Hmmm. Thiz ZPM information intrests me.

In the siege part 3, McKay explained that if the wraith kept attacking atlantis, the cities shields would only sustain for 3 or 4 days. This is drastically contrasting to the fact that a previous ZPM powered the cities shields for 10,000 years.

Like owen said, its doubtful that much power was used in gating to pegasus, and bringing the daedalus there quicker, therefore why would McKay say the shields would only last for that short amount of time?

I have not seen Atlantis, but I'm guess that the previous ZPM did not take a big attack and was barly holding back the water. And I think it's easyer to hold back water than an attack.

Hudson
July 24th, 2005, 01:44 PM
1.21 Gigawatts!

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 02:48 PM
Hmmm. Thiz ZPM information intrests me.

In the siege part 3, McKay explained that if the wraith kept attacking atlantis, the cities shields would only sustain for 3 or 4 days. This is drastically contrasting to the fact that a previous ZPM powered the cities shields for 10,000 years.

Like owen said, its doubtful that much power was used in gating to pegasus, and bringing the daedalus there quicker, therefore why would McKay say the shields would only last for that short amount of time?
I would have to say, this is because, allthough the ZPMs lasted for ten thousand years holding the ocean back, they did have three. Also, the were holding back one constant force upon the shield, the presure of the water. The Wraith weapons were a lot stronger than the water. The weapons were launched at incredible speeds and there were a lot more, so I can assume with the increased force on the shields and the intervals between the inflicted force, the shield may not have held for as long.

Owen Macri

mightydefiant
July 24th, 2005, 06:53 PM
Owen Macri, you just said with more words what I did.

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 06:59 PM
Oh, I appoligze, I didn't see your post. But I did elaborate a little bit. lol, I appoligize. By the way, you can call me Owen.

Owen Macri

briguy213
July 24th, 2005, 07:16 PM
1.21 Gigawatts!

Did you get that number from something from stargate or back to the future?

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 07:26 PM
Lol, probably Back to the Future, by the way he said it. Those movies where awsome. lol.

Owen Macri

briguy213
July 24th, 2005, 07:51 PM
When the DVD set came out my dad bought it, and I swear I saw the first two 30 times since and the last one 15. I like the first to better. the last one... I dont know.

mightydefiant
July 24th, 2005, 07:53 PM
If a ZPM makes 1.21 gig. then when you move the gate's inner ring at 88 MPH you travel through time, not that solar flar crap.
And BttF rock, and they have the best time travel rules. When I saw the DVD's I had to get them.
Owen, I just copy pasted your name.
And whoo! double digit post numbers!

briguy213
July 24th, 2005, 07:56 PM
I think it is if you go through the gate at 88 mph you go through time. Into the future that is. The other side of the gate if for the travelling to the past.

Chachi
July 24th, 2005, 07:56 PM
well if im correct atlantis is made from trinium, so for every 100 tonnes manhatten weighs, atlantis would weigh 1, in that case atlantis is alot small, in mass than mannhatten.

Immhotep, did you know that 74.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot? Where do you get your figures from?

I propose that when totally made up figures (or guestimates) are used in a post, the font color should be brown to denote where the numbers came from, as opposed to citing canon from the shows/movie.

-Chachi

briguy213
July 24th, 2005, 07:58 PM
Another thing, WOW, its been for posts and owen hasnt posted. Maybe he is sick? lol. Every last post on sci forum has his name. he must be on a real power trip. LOL. Owen is cool though. I wish I had the time to read everything.

briguy213
July 24th, 2005, 08:02 PM
I propose that when totally made up figures (or guestimates) are used in a post, the font color should be brown to denote where the numbers came from, as opposed to citing canon from the shows/movie.

Why brown? Do you have a problem with brown people? Teal'c is brown. I bet he could kick your arse... Yeah, so how about they should just write that the number is pulled out there arse...

mightydefiant
July 24th, 2005, 08:02 PM
Can I make it five?
And I knew 88 MPH had something to do with it.

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 08:12 PM
Lol, I was suprised when I came into the thread, you guys had posted so much, my computer must have screwed up something because I have been reloading the forum for an hour and the posts just came up now. Oh well. ok, let's get started in replying.


When the DVD set came out my dad bought it, and I swear I saw the first two 30 times since and the last one 15. I like the first to better. the last one... I dont know.

Ya, I don't have the DVDs but once I rented them and every time I see the movies on T.V. I always watch.


If you moved the inner ring at 88 miles per hour, the gate would probably do nothing, for one reason, we need a Flux Capacitor! lol, but if you hook up one of those babies Mckay would freak!

That's allright, call me whatever you want, Owen, Owen Macri, Moron, Idiot, Napoleonic Power Monger, whatever you would like! lol.

[Quote=briguy213]I think it is if you go through the gate at 88 mph you go through time. Into the future that is. The other side of the gate if for the travelling to the past.

But then we get into the whole Flux Capacitor issue, you know what, let's just tie up and gag Mckay, then no one can ruin our fun! lol, just kidding, drugs ought to fix him. lol.


Immhotep, did you know that 74.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot? Where do you get your figures from?

I propose that when totally made up figures (or guestimates) are used in a post, the font color should be brown to denote where the numbers came from, as opposed to citing canon from the shows/movie.

-Chachi

Excpet for one, it is true that 90% of people are right handed and 25% are left handed, don't even try to argue that one! lol.


Another thing, WOW, its been for posts and owen hasnt posted. Maybe he is sick? lol. Every last post on sci forum has his name. he must be on a real power trip. LOL. Owen is cool though. I wish I had the time to read everything.

Thank you very much, you are cool too! In fact, you are all cool, this is the great thing about GateWorld, everyone here is just as cool as they want to be! Stay Cool!

(There you go everyone, all caught up!)

Owen Macri

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 08:14 PM
Can I make it five?
And I knew 88 MPH had something to do with it.
You did make it five, lol, good work!

Owen Macri

Chachi
July 24th, 2005, 08:19 PM
Why brown? Do you have a problem with brown people? Teal'c is brown. I bet he could kick your arse... Yeah, so how about they should just write that the number is pulled out there arse...

I said brown because it implies that it was pulled from their south-bound, exit only, hindquarters. I believe that subtle humor, and implications are best for all-audience message boards. Gotta love being classy. :-)

briguy213
July 24th, 2005, 08:21 PM
I knew it would be a matter of 10 secs before owen posted. Im older than you by 3 days owen. HAHA. What now? What ya gonna repl to that with?

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Three days, OH NO!!!! lol, well you should have been three months and three days older than me, I was three months premature. lol, so I will reply with, it could have been worse! lol.

Oh well, age doesn't matter especially on a forum, DAMN you get preasents before me!
lol.

By the way it was more like ten minutes, lol.

Owen Macri

mightydefiant
July 24th, 2005, 08:26 PM
You did make it five, lol, good work!

Owen Macri
No it was seven...
briguy213 me briguy213 Chachi briguy213 briguy213 me then you
And the flux cuppler is on the gate, its the home symble! The primid shape are two of three lines, and the sun/moon is the thrid line.

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 08:28 PM
Lol, well now we officially know that I can't count! Of course the flux capacitor is on the gate, but they had to hide it so Mckay wouldn't rip it off. lol.

Owen Macri

mightydefiant
July 24th, 2005, 08:34 PM
but they had to hide it so Mckay wouldn't rip it off. lol.

Owen Macri
Mckay Mckay Mckay Mckay, you like him or something? And wanna bet that Sam knows its there, but doesn't want Mckay to know, after all she is the smarter one, and hoter too.

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 08:38 PM
No, I just wouldn't want to be around when someone said something about the Flux Capacitor. lol, actually he is pretty cool, but I don't like him the way you are talking about, I am a guy you know.

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
July 24th, 2005, 08:43 PM
1.21 Gigawatts!square that and you might be getting close

Col. Newman
July 24th, 2005, 08:48 PM
Mckay Mckay Mckay Mckay, you like him or something? And wanna bet that Sam knows its there, but doesn't want Mckay to know, after all she is the smarter one, and hoter too.wrong McKay is smarter, and I like his attitude too :D

jaden10
July 24th, 2005, 09:21 PM
Before I start, Marci, Do you have a beeper service that lets you know when there is a new message on this board? You respond quicker then anyone else. Just wondering.

Ok here is my take, and anyone who read my paper on Transporter Technology (I did have help writing that btw), know that I can put this down rather simply (well as simply as my long winded answer can be).

When I first heard of a ZPM and heard of the power it can produce (both explosive and controlled) I tried (haha) to write down what we know in our limited science that could produce it.

We know when a ZPM is sabotaged it can literally obliterate a entire Solarsystem, which suggests that a uncontrolled discharge has the power of a supernova from a red giant, which from what I read and figured out through calculations (my own time btw) has 48 to the 800th power of a 1000 megaton nuke, the amount of power that can be produced in a control fashion from such a nuke could if done in a efficent way power this planet for over 27419 years (I rounded it up, it was actually 27418 years 2 month 28 days give or take 5 3/5th of a hour). Now understandably something that can put out that much energy with our level of technology would be huge, I can't conceive how big it would be, But I estimate something along the size of mars. Now what I find impressive is that something the size of a lunch pale can produce so much power and be so distructive. (and I am not saying it isn't possable, but I also belive that there are planets that have beings that have that type of technology).

And when you think about it, with the level of technology that Atlantis has one would think that everything in that city would be so damned efficent that you could run that whole city with one ZPM with shields up running at full power, with the Gate running all the time and all the lights on and everything else on and still have enough power to run that city for the good part of 20 millenia.

Now why did 3 ZPMs only last 10000, Think about it, it was underwater and the pressure of the water had every square inch of that shield stressed. And the ZPM's had to work over time to keep it up and going.

_Owen_
July 24th, 2005, 10:18 PM
No but I want one! Look in the about the forum section I started a thread asking for a feature that gives a pop up mesage everytime someone posts in a thread, instead of an e-mail, like the Private Message function. But no one listend.

Lol, I just remembered that you sent me that, I checked my e-mails at a friends house and I didn't want to download it there so I left it and forgot, lol, I just downloaded the attachment now, I will read it now. lol.

That is a lot of power, but your calculations could be very far off. Carter said that the ZPM could desimate our solar system, but that doesn't mean that the explosion couldn't extend further, there a considerable void between our galaxy and Alpha Centauri, the blast could extend well into that region, giving the Zero Point Module far more power than you have estimated. But seeing as we have no way of knowing I would say that your estimation is a logical answer. And wow that is a lot of power.

I would have to agree with you, in "Rising" Colonel Marshall Sumner, said that they were probably under several hundred feet of ocean. Now all of that water above would provide considerable wieght on the shield, as well, we are assuming gravity is the same on both planets, which is unlikley. So if gravity was stronger on that planet the force upon the shield would be even stronger, because the water would weigh more.

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
July 24th, 2005, 11:33 PM
gravity would be about the same because both planets are about the same size

jaden10
July 25th, 2005, 01:49 AM
That is a lot of power, but your calculations could be very far off. Carter said that the ZPM could desimate our solar system, but that doesn't mean that the explosion couldn't extend further, there a considerable void between our galaxy and Alpha Centauri, the blast could extend well into that region, giving the Zero Point Module far more power than you have estimated. But seeing as we have no way of knowing I would say that your estimation is a logical answer. And wow that is a lot of power.
Owen Macri

Actually I had to go back and watch that episode "Zero Hour" Where Baal wanted "Camelass" (I already miss those quips).
And also where the plant was taking over. "Attack of the killer Ferns"

I went straight to that Episode and Carter Said Verbatim "I was reading Dr. Lee report about the tainted ZPM, I think he may have underestimated the explosive potential. It could have destroyed the entire solar sysem" Jack said "Whats the differance? Sam "Well my point is if we figured it out, so could Baal, he could use it as a weapon against us"....

_Owen_
July 25th, 2005, 07:33 AM
Yes she said it could destroy our entire solar system, but she didn't say what its' blast range was, the explosion could have destroyed the entire solar system, but stil extended well out into the void between us and Alpha Centauri, etc.

*---------------- ) **

*=Sun
----=Solar System
)=Extent of blast
**=Aplpha Centauri

As you can see, it does destroy our solar system but the blast also extends out further, this would greatley increase the energy potential of the Zero Point Module.

Owen Macri

aironoeus
July 25th, 2005, 07:49 AM
Hey, a tainted ZPM means it has been tainted. The "tainting" could be a radioactive substance, naquada or something else. We don't know how it was rigged so don't try to figure out the electricity it can put out based on that unique circumstance in the story line. Using it as a version of supernuclear bomb is completely different than how much average watts it can put out. It is sort of being implied in that episode that it was being used as a nuclear source in which case that implies turning all of the matter contained within it plus the added chemical into energy all at one time. That's totally different than using it as a source of electricity otherwise the ZPM would shrink as each of its atoms got converted into energy. We've all seen spent ZPM's being carried around so clearly some parts of it are not being converted to energy. Besides a "Zero Point Module" implies that it is an "open system" (like a solar panel is an open system) getting its energy from the environment. When they use the term "used up" on the show it could simply mean that nanostructures within the device have been affected by heat and are degrading and so it is no longer functioning at optimum. Or they could have really tiny super strong nanomagnets in there forming parts of the structure that are reacting with an isotope of some regular element (like carbon or lithium) to trick it into beta-decaying and reverting back to its original form and the environment is forced to furnish the energy. The nanomagnets could be de-magnetizing over a period of time because of the high currents involved within in a small amount of space.

How much power?


Let's try to work from "the bottom up" on figuring out the power these fictional things put out.
We know that it was powering the shields and that there was an episode where since they didn't have a ZPM they substituted lightning. Remember that the electricity from the lightning was running through the hallways and so those conductors in the hallways have to be either ultraconducting or superconducting or there was an ultraconductor somewhere down the line from it otherwise those hallways would have melted from the heat of resistance so that tells us that we can just drop trying to figure out volts because a superconductor will just suck down the voltage and turn it into amps. So we can just deal with the total wattage or power.

A lightning strike has between 11 gigawatts for a small lightning strike and the rare mega strike has 300 gigawatts.
The storm that was depicted on that episode was very large. Normally each strike has three steps in it where you get a back and forth action "ground to sky, then sky to ground" three times within 90 milliseconds. Those big lightning rods and the fact that they were running the power through a circuit that had superconductors in it and then over to the shield means there was probably no return strike. In other words each strike got used up to power the citys shields. Since the thing wasn't flickering on and off they must have had supercapacitors somewhere in the line (which is perfect because supercaps take low voltage high current) or there was some additional beta-emissions (neutrinos) going on somewhere in the city that we are not being told about because of the lightning or its electricty that is striking some naquada and causing it to also power up (which would be a neat trick to gain even more power).
So lets figure out an average strike for that small amount of time on that episode. Let's say that we'll take the lowest 11 and the highest 300 (seems possible they would have had some megastrikes) and add them together and divide by 2 to get an average. A 155 gigawatt average strike (maybe I'm being too generous) ......say every 30 seconds means that they would have to divide the 155 gigawatts over the period of 30 seconds.
So 5.1 gigawatts to only keep the shield powered. Obviously this is an extremely rough estimate and the figures could be changed, but it kind of gives us an idea. Seems like it might be the correct order of magntitude to hold off a bunch of fast swirling moist air. Maybe it could be a little higher.

_Owen_
July 25th, 2005, 08:02 AM
I think it is safe to say that the ZPM was "altered." The ZPM glowed blue, and for a natural function of it to change it would have to be altered, not just sprayed down with plutonium.

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
July 25th, 2005, 04:45 PM
Besides a "Zero Point Module" implies that it is an "open system" (like a solar panel is an open system) getting its energy from the environment.

I must politely disagree. I believe that it has been well established within the show that the ZPM is possessed with a maximum amount of energy that can be delievered. The ZPM has been consistently potrayed as essentially a battery.

The ZPM is an open system, but this because it delievers energy to the surrounding environment. In "Rising", McKay explains that the ZPM derives its energy from a self-contained region of subspace and explains that a ZPM is depleted when it reachs maximum entropy.

Of course this discussion has raised a good point. We must be aware of the difference between energy and power. Aironeus seems to believe (I hope I do not put words in your mouth, this is how I understood your post) that the ZPM is not instriniscly limited to the amount of energy it can deliever over its lifetime, that the ability to deliever energy is impaired by damage to the unit (damage that may be linked to its use or heavy use). He has provided some calculation that provide a lower limit on the power provided by the ZPM.

My feeling is that the ZPM has a maximum amount of energy that can be delievered over its lifetime (again the battery idea). It further seems that the amount of power that can be delievered by the ZPM is essentially unlimited -- I base this on Camulus's ZPM.

This is how I formulate my question. Assuming the ZPM acts more like a battery. How much longer can Ra's ZPM last? I wonder if the Atlantis team will find more functions of Atlantis that may require large amounts of energy.

_Owen_
July 25th, 2005, 04:54 PM
You are both half right. Liquid blue more so. The Zero Point Module derives its' energy from a self contained region of subspace-time, so while it is deriving its' energy from what you could call "the environment" (aironeus). However seeing as it is a self contained region of subspace that its' energy is derived from, it cannot continuously gain energy, there is only so much located within the self contained region. (Liquid Blue) But, esentially the Zero Point Module is like a solar panel that gets its' light from a battery powered flashlight, the batterys in the flashlight will run out.

While you are both right, it is on diffrent points.

Owen Macri

valha'lla
July 25th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Actually I had to go back and watch that episode "Zero Hour" Where Baal wanted "Camelass" (I already miss those quips).
And also where the plant was taking over. "Attack of the killer Ferns"

I went straight to that Episode and Carter Said Verbatim "I was reading Dr. Lee report about the tainted ZPM, I think he may have underestimated the explosive potential. It could have destroyed the entire solar sysem" Jack said "Whats the differance? Sam "Well my point is if we figured it out, so could Baal, he could use it as a weapon against us"....
I think that ZPM was like at half power or less at the time so it could blow over solar system up twice over at least :eek: . Also can any one rember how often they had to be changed round in order to keep the shield in atliantis from falling as soon as we arrived from earth that might help with the estimation.

_Owen_
July 25th, 2005, 06:21 PM
Well, I am not sure how much power it had but they made it seem like it was full. The ZPMs where rotated at intervals of approximatley every 3.3 thousand years. I don't think they were fully charged, it is highley unlikley that they were.

Owen Macri

jaden10
July 25th, 2005, 09:35 PM
I think that ZPM was like at half power or less at the time so it could blow over solar system up twice over at least :eek: . Also can any one rember how often they had to be changed round in order to keep the shield in atliantis from falling as soon as we arrived from earth that might help with the estimation.

3.3 thousand years.

jaden10
July 25th, 2005, 09:41 PM
Well, I am not sure how much power it had but they made it seem like it was full. The ZPMs where rotated at intervals of approximatley every 3.3 thousand years. I don't think they were fully charged, it is highley unlikley that they were.

Owen Macri

Aw common Owen, we know the Ancients had ego's bigger then the Goa'uld, they most likely kept a damned Generator hooked up to them to keep it juiced up. :rolleyes:

But seriously, We all know that the ZPM is one of the most powerful power supplies in the (now) universe. However there is something in one of the spoilers that mentions something even more powerful, and of course this will feed into McKays already bloated Ego, I wonder if he is a Ancient reincarnate....

As for the taining (I am responding to multiple posts here) I doubt it was Naquida, cause even those Naquida is powerful, it isn't powerful enough to assist the ZPM in detonating a force strong enough to cook the entire terran solar system to a singe. If you remember the episode "failsafe" carter mentioned that the asteroids core is made up of Naquida and that something that size exploding would be like a small nova and that Asteroid was at least 100 km long, and we are talking about something the size of a human lung. It was never mentioned how "Camelass" tainted it, but it must have been good like altering the molecular structure of the device where it refocused the energy back into the ZPM causeing a massive overload of ungodly proportions.

And finally, I have a sneaking hunch that they will find a few more ZPMs (fully charged ones) this season.

Col. Newman
July 25th, 2005, 10:21 PM
Aw common Owen, we know the Ancients had ego's bigger then the Goa'uld, they most likely kept a damned Generator hooked up to them to keep it juiced up. :rolleyes:

But seriously, We all know that the ZPM is one of the most powerful power supplies in the (now) universe. However there is something in one of the spoilers that mentions something even more powerful, and of course this will feed into McKays already bloated Ego, I wonder if he is a Ancient reincarnate....

As for the taining (I am responding to multiple posts here) I doubt it was Naquida, cause even those Naquida is powerful, it isn't powerful enough to assist the ZPM in detonating a force strong enough to cook the entire terran solar system to a singe. If you remember the episode "failsafe" carter mentioned that the asteroids core is made up of Naquida and that something that size exploding would be like a small nova and that Asteroid was at least 100 km long, and we are talking about something the size of a human lung. It was never mentioned how "Camelass" tainted it, but it must have been good like altering the molecular structure of the device where it refocused the energy back into the ZPM causeing a massive overload of ungodly proportions.

And finally, I have a sneaking hunch that they will find a few more ZPMs (fully charged ones) this season.
actually it was mentioned, he sprayed it with a substance that when exposed to an electrical current is extremly extremly explosive

aironoeus
July 25th, 2005, 10:26 PM
You guys need to get it through your head that using something as a power source is totally different than using it as a bomb.

For example I can take a brick of thorium and put it in a steel can and that can will stay hot because of the neutrons being shot out of the thorium causing heat in the can as they collide with the atoms in the steel.
I can then slap a stirling engine onto that can and it will sit there and use the heat to run a motor or generator by continouosly pumping the heat away to the environment.

So the power output of it as a generator is totally different and far far less than if I can somehow get the thorium to go "supercritical" and convert into total energy.

Furthermore, plutonium and uranium are only 2 of a whole cra*load of radioactive substances.

Also, there are a lot of things that will flouresce or "glow" in the presence of a radioactive substance which can be made into a paint and coated onto something.

Whenever the ZPM is treated as a battery that is bad writing or a characters flaw or your misunderstanding. Subspace is a stupid star trek word. The only thing it could mean that would make sense in this case is that down on an atomic level when the element goes from decaying back to normal it is totally unknown to us as to where the energy comes from that lets it revert back to normal. Atoms have been studied in detail by humans and if a character on a show uses the term "subspace" they are basically saying "it's accessing energy in some space that we can't see because as far as we know we've seen everything."

I appreciate owens enthusiasm but he's not an authority. Neither am I.

The ZPM doesn't deliver energy to its environment. Keeping in mind that this is a fictional device we are talking about here, it probably induces a normally non-radioactive element to go into a beta decay and then uses this beta decay by sucking electrons off of it and then something being called "subspace" is furnishing the energy to let it revert back to normal.
The term "subspace" is another way of saying it's somewhere in the environment but we can't see it and don't know where it is.
In fact that is what ZERO POINT means. Zero point means there is something existing in all space even when it is a complete vaccuum and we can't see it or measure it yet so it has a "zero point". We are saying that it has no dimension because it can't be measured. It is only a temporary term that someone came up with. Don't get stuck on the term "Zero Point."
Eventually we'll figure out what the heck is really going on and the term ZERO POINT will seem silly.

~Thor~
July 26th, 2005, 05:06 AM
I tought zero point refered to 0K.

You guys need to get it through your head that using something as a power source is totally different than using it as a bomb. Not really, using it as a power source, is just controlling the reaction. Using it as a bomb is inducing an uncontrolled reaction, which releases the energy over an extremely short period of time, as opposed to a long stretch of time. So they are essentially the same, just one happens a lot faster, and is uncontrolled. The total energy output it the same, it just happens over different time span.


Keeping in mind that this is a fictional device we are talking about here, it probably induces a normally non-radioactive element to go into a beta decay and then uses this beta decay by sucking electrons off of it and then something being called "subspace" is furnishing the energy to let it revert back to normal. I read a theory, which seems a lot more likely as it fits witht the evidence show in the show a lot more, which I will try to explain as best as I can:

In the self contained region of subspace, there is a constant creation/destruction of virtual particles (pairs of matter/antimatter which destroy themself upon creation), this releases energy, which can be captured and used. This energy supply is unlimited, as this is happening all the time. However, sometimes one of these particle can bury out of the bubble, and the other remains inside, with nothing to destroy it. After time these particles will build up and eventually clog up the bubble, stopping it ability to generate energy. To 'recharge' it one simply needs to inject the right amount of matter/antimatter to destroy the clog.

I also think that there is a time dialation device, stored within the ZPM, which increases/decreases the rate of time (and therefor eht reaction speed) of the bubble. Or the ZPM has some other way of increasing/decreasing the speed of the reaction. What camulus did, was some how modified the device to withdraw heaps of energy in a short period of time.

_Owen_
July 26th, 2005, 08:57 AM
Well, it is very possible but when they have all that power it seems stupid to just keep them hooked up to generators. Also, if the generators could generate power fast enough to replace the used power, it was probably extremley powerful. Besides, have a generator constantly hooked up defeats the point of using a Zero Point Module. A ZPM harnesses power that we didn't even know was there, Zero Point Energy from a self contained region of subspace-time. If you want to recharge it all you have to do is lock it onto a new region, Zero Point Energy will probably be recharged in the region that you had used.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
July 26th, 2005, 08:57 AM
Aw common Owen, we know the Ancients had ego's bigger then the Goa'uld, they most likely kept a damned Generator hooked up to them to keep it juiced up. :rolleyes:

But seriously, We all know that the ZPM is one of the most powerful power supplies in the (now) universe. However there is something in one of the spoilers that mentions something even more powerful, and of course this will feed into McKays already bloated Ego, I wonder if he is a Ancient reincarnate....

As for the taining (I am responding to multiple posts here) I doubt it was Naquida, cause even those Naquida is powerful, it isn't powerful enough to assist the ZPM in detonating a force strong enough to cook the entire terran solar system to a singe. If you remember the episode "failsafe" carter mentioned that the asteroids core is made up of Naquida and that something that size exploding would be like a small nova and that Asteroid was at least 100 km long, and we are talking about something the size of a human lung. It was never mentioned how "Camelass" tainted it, but it must have been good like altering the molecular structure of the device where it refocused the energy back into the ZPM causeing a massive overload of ungodly proportions.

And finally, I have a sneaking hunch that they will find a few more ZPMs (fully charged ones) this season.
Well, it is very possible but when they have all that power it seems stupid to just keep them hooked up to generators. Also, if the generators could generate power fast enough to replace the used power, it was probably extremley powerful. Besides, have a generator constantly hooked up defeats the point of using a Zero Point Module. A ZPM harnesses power that we didn't even know was there, Zero Point Energy from a self contained region of subspace-time. If you want to recharge it all you have to do is lock it onto a new region, Zero Point Energy will probably be recharged in the region that you had used.

Owen Macri

Col. Newman
July 26th, 2005, 01:47 PM
Well, it is very possible but when they have all that power it seems stupid to just keep them hooked up to generators. Also, if the generators could generate power fast enough to replace the used power, it was probably extremley powerful. Besides, have a generator constantly hooked up defeats the point of using a Zero Point Module. A ZPM harnesses power that we didn't even know was there, Zero Point Energy from a self contained region of subspace-time. If you want to recharge it all you have to do is lock it onto a new region, Zero Point Energy will probably be recharged in the region that you had used.

Owen Macriowen it's called "edit" use it *cought*spaming*cought* lol

mightydefiant
July 26th, 2005, 02:32 PM
I tought zero point refered to 0K.
Not really, using it as a power source, is just controlling the reaction. Using it as a bomb is inducing an uncontrolled reaction, which releases the energy over an extremely short period of time, as opposed to a long stretch of time. So they are essentially the same, just one happens a lot faster, and is uncontrolled. The total energy output it the same, it just happens over different time span.
Just like if it was a car engine slowly burning gas. But if it burned all the gas at once, it would blow up.

_Owen_
July 26th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Ya, but if it harnessed the energy you could launch your car incredibly fast in a huge burst of power. Why are we talking about this?

Owen Macri

~Thor~
July 26th, 2005, 03:10 PM
Look at the top of this page, and last post of previous page.

_Owen_
July 26th, 2005, 03:23 PM
Lol, sorry, ya, I didn't see the quote in your post, for some reason, it just wasn't there.

Owen Macri

mightydefiant
July 26th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Its ok, humans make mistakes (you are human right, this is a stargate forum after all)

_Owen_
July 26th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Oh thank you. I don't mind discussing it, it is not off topic, it is an analogy to help describe something. I wasn't protesting I was just wondering what made you bring it up and what you were responding to. Sorry.

Owen Macri

~Thor~
July 27th, 2005, 12:49 AM
Lol, sorry, ya, I didn't see the quote in your post, for some reason, it just wasn't there.

Owen Macri
Also, for some reasonthe posts keep on jumping back and forth between the pages (my post used to be top on the page, then it wasn't, then it was and now finally it isn't again)

aironoeus
July 27th, 2005, 06:12 AM
Not really, using it as a power source, is just controlling the reaction. Using it as a bomb is inducing an uncontrolled reaction, which releases the energy over an extremely short period of time, as opposed to a long stretch of time. So they are essentially the same, just one happens a lot faster, and is uncontrolled. The total energy output it the same, it just happens over different time span.


No! noooo. Noahhooo. Nooo. No.
It's not the same. Really. Because when you use a radioactive element as a heat source and then convert that heat to energy there are loses within that system. The generator is only so much efficient.
Plus you are not using ALL of its potential energy, only its energy as heat.
And only the heat that you can capture with the can.
You are simply content with it shooting out neutrons and heating a can.
On the other hand if you explode a bunch of warheads at it that are completly surrounding it to make it go supercritical it is now a "different element" so to speak. It is going to react by blowing itself and everything around it to crap. You push in and say "become a denser element" and it says "I don't think so. To he** with this place and everything around it. You lose!"
Also, in the first one you are measuring it from the point where you're extracting energy from it and you are ignoring the rest that gets lost to the environment.
In the second one you are measuring it from its impact on the environment only. And a large one at that.
You are using 2 different measuring cups. As a power source you are measuring it only after losses to the environment. In the second one there is no room for losses because you are using the environment as the measuring cup.
The first one will always be many times lower.



I read a theory, which seems a lot more likely as it fits with the evidence in the show a lot more, which I will try to explain as best as I can:

In the self contained region of subspace, there is a constant creation/destruction of virtual particles (pairs of matter/antimatter which destroy themself upon creation), this releases energy, which can be captured and used. This energy supply is unlimited, as this is happening all the time. However, sometimes one of these particle can bury out of the bubble, and the other remains inside, with nothing to destroy it. After time these particles will build up and eventually clog up the bubble, stopping it ability to generate energy. To 'recharge' it one simply needs to inject the right amount of matter/antimatter to destroy the clog.

I also think that there is a time dialation device, stored within the ZPM, which increases/decreases the rate of time (and therefor eht reaction speed) of the bubble. Or the ZPM has some other way of increasing/decreasing the speed of the reaction. What camulus did, was some how modified the device to withdraw heaps of energy in a short period of time.

Ask yourself what is a "virtual particle." Ask yourself what is "subspace."
"Virtual particle" just leaves us all with the feeling that someone came up with a fictional particle to account for something they couldn't explain.
I already tried to explain what the deal is with subspace when they say it on a tv show. I just didn't go into depth on it.
Let's try to inspire ourselves that it might be possible to make something like this. Let's not resort to faking it with "Virtual Particles" and "Antimatter" and saying it fits better. That's too vague. Vague is easy to fit.

mightydefiant
July 27th, 2005, 07:42 AM
Also, for some reasonthe posts keep on jumping back and forth between the pages (my post used to be top on the page, then it wasn't, then it was and now finally it isn't again)
I also get e-mail alerts about a post, but when I check the forum, its not there.

_Owen_
July 27th, 2005, 09:34 AM
Yes, I think that was a result of the updates that were made a while ago, or not. But it is just the default amount of posts per page is being changed, since most of us use the default, the posts are moving positions, apparently the default was lowered by one, or originaly hightened by one.

Owen Macri

~Thor~
July 27th, 2005, 03:01 PM
Let's try to inspire ourselves that it might be possible to make something like this. Let's not resort to faking it with "Virtual Particles" and "Antimatter" and saying it fits better. That's too vague. Vague is easy to fit
Antimatter is real.

As for virtual particles:


Virtual particles are often popularly described as coming in pairs, a particle and antiparticle, which can be of any kind. These pairs exist for an extremely short time, and mutually annihilate in short order. In some cases, however, it is possible to boost the pair apart using external energy so that they avoid annihilation and become real particles. This is one way of describing the process by which black holes evaporate. BTW that is from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particles"


On the other hand if you explode a bunch of warheads at it that are completly surrounding it to make it go supercritical it is now a "different element" so to speak. It is going to react by blowing itself and everything around it to crap. You push in and say "become a denser element" and it says "I don't think so. To he** with this place and everything around it. You lose!"
No. Both are the same. When they use it as a power source, they control the reaction (neutron hits U-235, splits roughly in half plus throws a few extra neutrons away(plus releases energy)) by absorbing some of the neutrons, depending on how fast the reaction is going. For a nuke, they got two lumps of uranium (which is subcritical mass) and blast em together to form a supercritical mass (critical mass is one where the chain reaction can sustain itself). The same thing happens, just there is no control rods, a neutron hits a U-235 atom, transmutes into U-236 (an fissionable isotope), it then splits and releases a few extra neutrons, since it is supercritical mass, and there is nothing else controlling the reaction, this will all happen very fast, and will continue increasing speed extremely fast (3 neutrons released from first split, those will cause another 3 atoms to split, causing 9 more neutrons, which it turn cause another 9 atoms to split etc). Both release the same amount of energy by nuclear fission. A powerplant collects what it can (heat) and uses a controlled reaction, while a bomb just unleases its power on whatever it can in an extremely short time.

_Owen_
July 27th, 2005, 11:24 PM
Nice post ~Thor~! Yes, Antimatter is very real, without antimatter, well we wouldn't be able to have incredbily huge beyond all comprehension sized explosions, now would we?

Owen Macri

~Thor~
July 28th, 2005, 12:01 AM
Thanks, but we also got a ZPM which can make rather big bombs. But the good thing about antimatter (IRL) is that it costs lots to make (like somewhere in the trillion $ per gram or someting) so for now we are reasonably safe (from antimatter bombs created by earth)

Lord §okar
July 28th, 2005, 12:50 AM
The ZPM produces amazing amounts of energy. It only took one ZPM to power Atlantis for over 3,000 years. A single ZPM probably could power our planet for quite awhile, it all depends on how depleted the ZPM is.
He asked about power, not energy. The answer is that, while it may have access to a great deal of energy, its power (ie the rate at which it can tap that energy) is rather limited.

No. Both are the same. When they use it as a power source, they control the reaction (neutron hits U-235, splits roughly in half plus throws a few extra neutrons away(plus releases energy)) by absorbing some of the neutrons, depending on how fast the reaction is going. For a nuke, they got two lumps of uranium (which is subcritical mass) and blast em together to form a supercritical mass (critical mass is one where the chain reaction can sustain itself). The same thing happens, just there is no control rods, a neutron hits a U-235 atom, transmutes into U-236 (an fissionable isotope), it then splits and releases a few extra neutrons, since it is supercritical mass, and there is nothing else controlling the reaction, this will all happen very fast, and will continue increasing speed extremely fast (3 neutrons released from first split, those will cause another 3 atoms to split, causing 9 more neutrons, which it turn cause another 9 atoms to split etc). Both release the same amount of energy by nuclear fission. A powerplant collects what it can (heat) and uses a controlled reaction, while a bomb just unleases its power on whatever it can in an extremely short time.
Why won't you just listen to what he's saying? There is no argument that a detonation has something of a similar process to a slow reaction, the difference comes from the efficiency with which the released energy is harnessed. The point is that one instance is far more efficient than the other. Detonating a mass of substance in a nuclear bomb is a far more efficient way of getting energy than than slow thermal fission of the same mass in a reactor because less energy is transferred to the system (and lost) due to entropy. Yes, both yield the same energy (smaller power over larger time frame and vice versa) but one generates far more usable energy.

they got two lumps of uranium (which is subcritical mass) and blast em together to form a supercritical mass (critical mass is one where the chain reaction can sustain itself).
That's an extremely archaic method of inducing fission. Implosion style device are all the rage nowadays.

~Thor~
July 28th, 2005, 03:17 AM
Why won't you just listen to what he's saying?I misuderstood his point, which I can see now.


He asked about power, not energy. The answer is that, while it may have access to a great deal of energy, its power (ie the rate at which it can tap that energy) is rather limited. Camulus' bomb was able to release a lot of energy over short period of time (therefore high power) but I suppose it is quite hard to capture all the energy from the ZPM when it blows up the solar system. both yield the same energy (smaller power over larger time frame and vice versa) but one generates far more usable energy. A ZPM would be able to generate more usable energy when used as a generator rather than a bomb? Yes? But other way for nuclear fission, right?

aironoeus
July 28th, 2005, 06:05 AM
Can we get back to what the question of this thread is or are we gonna go down the path of no return where virtual particles and antimatter is the answer and we all bow down to some impatient arse who made those terms up to fit Quantum mechanics and make it right, which sucks, and if you're a fan of the show one of the Tollan said QM states are crap.
They should remove all QM episodes from SG1 and explain them away as dreams (my opinion).
How much power does the "ZPM" produce?
If we aren't gonna try to figure it out then forget it, I'm out.
Actually, now that I think about it the person that started this thread wasn't really interested in answering the question of how much the ZPM really produces. It's just another thread to make another thread so that you can use the forum as a chatroom. The general discussion forum is full of fake threads that are really "chat threads." Everything from, "Do the goauld wear underwear?" to "what is your choice about blah blah blah ......?"

Loaf
July 28th, 2005, 07:48 AM
But strange quantam properties of particles are the sorce of zero point energy so i don't think we've wondered to far off topic at all

~Thor~
July 28th, 2005, 03:07 PM
In addition it one of the theory of how ZPM's produce energy, which you need (well not really) to know if you want to figure out how much it produces.

As to the question, depends if you use it as a bomb, or to power a shield, or to power lights. It has an variable power output.

_Owen_
July 28th, 2005, 07:59 PM
Yes, I agree that we should stay on topic, however, antimatter is far from made up, it has been created and existed in our world. It has been theorized that in the begining of our universe there were an equal amount of matter and antimatter created, except one extra particle of matter was created, after the mutual anhilation was complete, we were left with one particle of antimatter, which is now our universe.

Owen Macri

Three PhDs
August 7th, 2005, 12:52 PM
the ZPM is the most powerfull PS in the known universe, how can it not produce much energy, if you plugged a ZPM in to manhatten it would take about 10,000 to run out of gas not the 3000 years it took for it to burn out in atlantis. atlantis is manhatten in size and notin else, except possible the caffine consumtion( makcay :) )How did you come to those figures? Or did you just make them up?

a ZPM can produce enough energy to power the most advanced citys in the known universe with full shield for over 3000 years. 1 zpm power taonas for ages, then released from dormantcy one of the largest drone swarms the anceints ever hadHow do you know how long taonas was powered, or how big the swarm was in comparison to any other before it?

(presumable it was a large swarm), then opened up a wormhole to pegasus, in addition to any use before taonas.
basicly if we plugged in a zpm to say the uk or us national grid, wed be running on vacume/ZPM energy until we built our own stargate and traveled to the stars in hataks.How do you know that? What figures are you working from? Or are you just making it up and guessing?


Ok here is my take, and anyone who read my paper on Transporter Technology (I did have help writing that btw), know that I can put this down rather simply (well as simply as my long winded answer can be).Can I get to read your paper?


When I first heard of a ZPM and heard of the power it can produce (both explosive and controlled) I tried (haha) to write down what we know in our limited science that could produce it.

We know when a ZPM is sabotaged it can literally obliterate a entire Solarsystem, which suggests that a uncontrolled discharge has the power of a supernova from a red giant,Red Giants don't go supernova...

which from what I read and figured out through calculations (my own time btw) has 48 to the 800th power of a 1000 megaton nuke, the amount of power that can be produced in a control fashion from such a nuke could if done in a efficent way power this planet for over 27419 years (I rounded it up, it was actually 27418 years 2 month 28 days give or take 5 3/5th of a hour). Now understandably something that can put out that much energy with our level of technology would be huge, I can't conceive how big it would be, But I estimate something along the size of mars. Now what I find impressive is that something the size of a lunch pale can produce so much power and be so distructive. (and I am not saying it isn't possable, but I also belive that there are planets that have beings that have that type of technology).Given that red giants don't go supernova, how did you arrive at the figures you've quoted above? Could you show me a breakdown of them?


And when you think about it, with the level of technology that Atlantis has one would think that everything in that city would be so damned efficent that you could run that whole city with one ZPM with shields up running at full power, with the Gate running all the time and all the lights on and everything else on and still have enough power to run that city for the good part of 20 millenia.Doesn't matter how efficient you are, a 100W bulb will still consume 100W.


Yes, I agree that we should stay on topic, however, antimatter is far from made up, it has been created and existed in our world.True.

It has been theorized that in the begining of our universe there were an equal amount of matter and antimatter createdEqual amount of matter and antimatter.

, except one extra particle of matter was created,Not equal amount of matter and antimatter.

after the mutual anhilation was complete, we were left with one particle of antimatter, which is now our universe.Our universe is one particle of antimatter.

Um... what theory was this?

lethalfang
August 7th, 2005, 02:00 PM
I misuderstood his point, which I can see now.

Camulus' bomb was able to release a lot of energy over short period of time (therefore high power) but I suppose it is quite hard to capture all the energy from the ZPM when it blows up the solar system. both yield the same energy (smaller power over larger time frame and vice versa) but one generates far more usable energy. A ZPM would be able to generate more usable energy when used as a generator rather than a bomb? Yes? But other way for nuclear fission, right?

That depends on what you mean by "usable." If you usable means blow the solar system up...
Idealy speaking, the slower you extract energy from an engine, the less energy would be wasted in the form of heat, so more usable energy can be generated.

_Owen_
August 7th, 2005, 04:56 PM
Sorry, I obviously made some typos in that message. I must have been tired, because that isn't really what I was going to say.

What I meant to say was:

Einstein theorized that in the begining of the universe one billion particles of antimatter were created and one billion and one particles of matter where created when the mutual anhilation was complete we were left with one particle of matter which is our universe today.

There is also a derivitive of this, in the begining of our universe an equal amount of matter and antimatter were created but one particle of matter was split into two, so when the mutual anhilation was complete we were left with one particle of matter which is our universe today.

It is not so much a theory but more of an idea. If one particle of antimatter was split then our universe today would be antimatter dominant instead of matter dominant.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
August 7th, 2005, 06:38 PM
Doesn't matter how efficient you are, a 100W bulb will still consume 100W.
I, too must take issue with this point, I've seen "efficiency" being the ace-in-hole bandyed about a bit too much. No matter how efficient the power source, conduit or powered device the power draw is the power draw. The gate requires alot of energy at high power to run, efficiency only refers to how much extra energy you have to add after the draw to account for heat transferred to the system and lost due to entropy.

Three PhDs
August 7th, 2005, 11:47 PM
Sorry, I obviously made some typos in that message. I must have been tired, because that isn't really what I was going to say.

What I meant to say was:

Einstein theorized that in the begining of the universe one billion particles of antimatter were created and one billion and one particles of matter where created when the mutual anhilation was complete we were left with one particle of matter which is our universe today.

There is also a derivitive of this, in the begining of our universe an equal amount of matter and antimatter were created but one particle of matter was split into two, so when the mutual anhilation was complete we were left with one particle of matter which is our universe today.

It is not so much a theory but more of an idea. If one particle of antimatter was split then our universe today would be antimatter dominant instead of matter dominant.

Owen Macri
There's slightly more than one particle of matter in my body alone.

Jarnin
August 8th, 2005, 04:50 PM
There's slightly more than one particle of matter in my body alone.
10^28+1!

Lord §okar
August 8th, 2005, 04:56 PM
Prime!

_Owen_
August 8th, 2005, 04:59 PM
What?!?

Owen Macri

Three PhDs
August 8th, 2005, 05:02 PM
What?!?

Owen Macri
You said that our universe is made of one particle, I said "Nope, just a wee bit more in my body than one..." and it went from there.

_Owen_
August 8th, 2005, 05:05 PM
I didn't say that it did, I said that Einstein said that. And theoretically the one particle would have expanded and split.

Owen Macri

Three PhDs
August 8th, 2005, 05:11 PM
I didn't say that it did, I said that Einstein said that.No, he didn't. If you disagree, quote a source.

And theoretically the one particle would have expanded and split.According to what theory?

_Owen_
August 8th, 2005, 05:15 PM
What do you mean according to what theory? You know very well there is not an actaully theory that states this, but in theory it is possible. And hold on I am going to find the quote.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
August 8th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Ok the quote was a little off, this is the actual quote.

On the big bang: "For every one billion particles of antimatter there were one billion and one particles of matter. And when the mutual annihilation was complete, one billionth remained - and that's our present universe."

- Albert Einstein

and this is the website. http://home.att.net/~quotations/einstein.html

here is another site:

http://www.hitxp.com/quotes/einstein.htm

and another:
http://www.greatmotivationalquotes.com/success-leaders/albert-einstein-quotes.htm

and yet another:
http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/with/keyword/antimatter/

one more:
http://www.giga-usa.com/quotes/authors/albert_einstein_a006.htm

op, sorry, one more:
http://www.cherrylanepillows.com/einstein_quotes.htm

Now, might that be enough websites?

I know I got the actuall quote wrong and I appoligze but he did say something incredibly incredibly similar.

Owen Macri

Lord §okar
August 8th, 2005, 05:22 PM
There's a quote of Einsteins that involves wholsesale violation of thermodynamics? One particle cannot become two unless the mass of each is halved.

_Owen_
August 8th, 2005, 05:24 PM
And which one might that be?

There are many millions of quotes made by many millions of people, and they are not all supposed to be true, they are supposed to envoke thought, and motivation.

Owen Macri

Three PhDs
August 8th, 2005, 05:27 PM
In short Owen, you often say "Theoretically it is possible" or "It has been theorised" when you should be saying "I think it is possible" or "I have theorised". What's more worrying is that whenever you do theorise something, you do it with no scientific reason to do so. If you've got an idea, a theory, show how you came to that idea or theory scientifically or ask yourself, what worth has it? Might I as well have just pulled it out of the air?

Lord §okar
August 8th, 2005, 05:27 PM
I was asking you.

There's a quote of Einsteins that involves wholsesale violation of thermodynamics?

And theoretically the one particle would have expanded and split.

One particle cannot become two unless the mass of each is halved.

The quote of Einsteins' works around the premise that each particle is the size of a universe, not a particle in the universe.

_Owen_
August 8th, 2005, 05:32 PM
In theory it is possible or theoretically it is possible are just as good as I have theorized, because they all mean the same thing and it doesn't really matter who has theorized it. If it was a well known scientist I would state their name. But if I say theoretically possibly, it does not mean that someone has actually written a theory.

Owen Macri

Three PhDs
August 8th, 2005, 05:37 PM
In theory it is possible or theoretically it is possible are just as good as I have theorized, because they all mean the same thing and it doesn't really matter who has theorized it. If it was a well known scientist I would state their name. But if I say theoretically possibly, it does not mean that someone has actually written a theory.

Owen MacriNo, I disagree. The wording "In theory" suggests that a theory (of reasonable consistency) has been produced which supports your argeument. In 100% of the cases I have put to you so far it has been purely your own belief with no scientific basis whatsoever. You're being misleading by not stating that something has been theorised without making clear it's your own theory. You'd be shot down in flames if you tried to publish a paper using the same format as most of your posts.

_Owen_
August 8th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Ok, perhaps I was not as clear as I could have been, I appoligize.

Owen Macri

aironoeus
August 9th, 2005, 07:22 AM
Well in order to "do the homework" for these producers of the show and theorize as to how might this "ZPM" device be a real possibility we have to figure out what the answer to this thread title question is.
a) How much energy does the ZPM produce?

b) Then we have to find an effect in real life that matches that amount of power.
c) Then we have to use our imagination as to how it is designed so that it resembles the unit as depicted on the show and citing any real world references that we can.

The device has to:
1) Produce the effect
2) Reliably channel the effect into the circuit which it is connected to
3) Do so many years without breaking

In post #39 on the "real world science items...." thread I have guessed at the power level, which is around 130 to 300 giga watts(a).

I believe I have found an effect in real life which matches that based on temporary lithium to Helium beta-decay which is 49.6 GW per gram at 100% efficient and 100% participation of the lithium atoms(b).

I suggested some ideas as to how it might be constructed but basically left it open (c). There are some sea creatures that make remarkably strong structures out of silica that resemble towers. This type of construction idea could be used in the ZPM so as to include a small radioactive element, the lithium, superconducting channels, proper arrangement so that the gamma rays are absorbed within the immediate vicinity, and the temporary helium is somehow contained within microstructures within these "crystals" until it collapses back into lithium and how it gets recombined into part of the structure again.

If the device weighs for example 7 pounds and the beta decay source (lithium) makes up 65 percent of the weight and the other 45% is structual, superconducting microchannels, radioactive isotope, and simple but highly informed microsensors and microactuators, how many grams of lithium is available to us to use as the source of the PROTELF effect assuming a 99.95 percent efficient but only a 85% participation of the atoms of lithium. We would probably have to also include some super tiny solar powered circuit somewhere on the crystals or base that is only switched on when the unit is plugged in, in order to start out the process. Otherwise if the thing was producing the effect all the time McKay would get his hand Arc welded into ash from carryuing it around.

If you think about it, this PROTELF effect is our best candidate so far. It certainly would explain how the system degrades over time resulting in less and less of the atoms of lithium available to participate in the PROTELF effect. The one big "advanced trick" here is how it is designed in such a way so that the effect produces only the higher powered helium isotope that beta-decays and not the lower powered helium isotope.

_Owen_
August 9th, 2005, 02:17 PM
If we had something to compare it too, then we could calculate the amount of energy produced, the ZPMs that they had when they got to Atlantis had powered Atlantis for ten thousand years, but that is only a rough estimate, with the length of time that the ZPM had run, and the amount of power consumed be whatever the ZPM was powering we could still only get an estimate, but a closer one, we have to factor in "lost" power.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
August 10th, 2005, 06:13 PM
Ok, I have just figured something out, I beleive it was this thread where people were discussing the possibilty of energy calculation of the Zero Point Module using references in "Zero Hour" as to calculate the explosive force.

Any calculations would in fact not be the energy of the Zero Point Module, it would be the energy released by the substance which tainted the ZPM.

It was only that substance that, once introduced to an electrical current would explode. By the time the Zero Point Module exploded, its' lock on its' self-conatained region of subspacetime will have been lost because whatever was holding the lock will have been destroyed.

Owen Macri