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gallywag
May 9th, 2005, 09:11 AM
ok i know that the phyerdrive creates a hyperspace window in subspace but how exactly does it do it i mean the window looks cool but its kinda hard for me to understand how it forms and my physics and stargate knowlege is quight good but this still stumps me

lethalfang
May 9th, 2005, 12:30 PM
ok i know that the phyerdrive creates a hyperspace window in subspace but how exactly does it do it i mean the window looks cool but its kinda hard for me to understand how it forms and my physics and stargate knowlege is quight good but this still stumps me
Presumably, the "hyperdrive" warp the space around the ship, so you travel a lot of distance in 3-D space when you in fact travel only a small distance in the 4-D space-time.

_Owen_
May 9th, 2005, 01:12 PM
First of all, the hyperdrive opens a window into, hyperspace, not subspace. But bassically, there are diffrent levels of space, space, hyperspace, (there are also many diffrent levels of hyperspace), for example, when O'Neill modifies the engines on the scout ship, in Lost City, they are travelling in another layer of hyperspace.

Now there is some sort of fabric, that separates all of these diffrent levels, to reach another level you have to "rip" this fabric, and theoretically the hyperspace window generator rips this fabric, opening a "window" into hyperspace, then the ship can just cruise in. The window is just the wierd anomaly that you see in space before entering hyperspace, when you are actually travelling through hyperspace, the effect you said is cool, is actually what that layer of hyperspace looks like.

However I think everything that I just said is theory, and there is no evidence whatsoever to prove it.

Owen Macri

Jprime
May 9th, 2005, 04:54 PM
My theory is that the layers of space below our own are physically smaller than our own. Therefore, the deeper we get below our own dimension, the smaller the distances we have to go become:

_____________Our dimension
___\_____/____1 below
____\___/_____2 below
______\/______3 below

Jarnin
May 9th, 2005, 07:42 PM
My theory is that the layers of space below our own are physically smaller than our own. Therefore, the deeper we get below our own dimension, the smaller the distances we have to go become:

_____________Our dimension
___\_____/____1 below
____\___/_____2 below
______\/______3 below

I haven't ever heard a good definition for hyperspace or subspace in SG-1 or Atlantis. The way I understand it from other scifi authors:

Hyperspace = higher speed of light constant. This allows ships to travel much faster without the increased mass and time dilation problems.

Subspace = compactified spatial dimensions. This means shorter distances for light to travel at it's normal rate.

_Owen_
May 9th, 2005, 08:34 PM
This could be possible, actually I didn't think of hyperspace that way, how much of a diffrence in speed do you think there could be? I like my idea but it is nice to hear others as well.

In response to Jprimes' post, that is close to my theory, even though there is less space in the lower levels, they still have to meet at the ends so the other levels would be stretched as well as everything inside, but there is still less space to travel so you can cross more distance in a higher level when travelling in a lower level going the same speed that you would in the higher level. it is like taking an image, say of a choclate bar, at the top of the picture the chocolate bar is five centimeters from the top of the picture and five centimeters from the bottom, if you stretch the picture the chocolate bar will be ten centimeters from the top and bottom but it will have grown 20 centimeters in hight from its original hight, therfore it can travel a greater distance in a shorter time. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Owen Macri

Jarnin
May 9th, 2005, 10:41 PM
This could be possible, actually I didn't think of hyperspace that way, how much of a diffrence in speed do you think there could be? I like my idea but it is nice to hear others as well.
The idea is that in hyperspace, your velocity would be slightly above 300,000 km/s; if you slowed down below that speed, you'd drop out of hyperspace back into normal space.
Maximum velocity in hyperspace would have to obey the same rules that the speed of light in normal space does; time dilation and mass increases.

One story I read put the speed of light in hyperspace at 300,000^300,000 km/s.

gallywag
May 10th, 2005, 03:12 AM
ok thankyou ppl if not a lil confusing

NotAllowedToNameAnything.Ever.
May 10th, 2005, 04:35 AM
Jack: magnets.

Seastallion
May 10th, 2005, 04:44 AM
Oh boy... I'm afraid this is gonna be another long post. Cant' be helped I suppose. Oh well. This is yet another question I've put a lot of thought into... and will therefore try to relate to all of you. It all comes down to that most mysterious, and yet universally important force of nature... Gravity.

According to physics, Gravity seems to be the weakest of all the forces of nature. Electromagnetic energy seems to be strongest. However, several relatively recent theories about gravity may help to shed some light on this. However weak gravity may be, it is obviously the thing that holds the universe togethor into some coherent form. Yet it doesn't make any intuitive sense, that gravity should be the weakest force of nature. Perhaps it isn't. One idea runs like this... Gravity is the one force of nature that provides us with.. a doorway into the other layers of space. Gravity works within all these layers, and thus, it seems weaker in 'normal' space because its powers are more spread out, or you might say 'diluted', than the other forces of nature. Electromagnetism is particularly strong, perhaps because it is a more 'concentrated' form of energy.

Concentration, or focus... is the key. Gravity is not usually associated with those words, except on rare occaisions. A gravity field is spread out over a wide area of space. The Suns gravity field radiates outward for many billions and billions of miles. The gravity field of the Earth keeps the Moon, roughly 1/3 the size of Earth tethered to it. The force of gravity does some incredible things, but on such a colossal scale as to defy any practical usage. In at least one instance, gravity is focused... but the price is too terrible to ever utilize. A Black Hole... The vast amount of mass is so 'heavy' that it literally pulls everything else into it... a monster, with a mouth like some cosmic shark pulling everything into it. Literally ripping the fabric of space/time itself. Yet, as terrible as the black hole is... it provides us with the solution to opening a door into those other layers of space. Focused Gravity.

There are in fact several different types of black holes, but for the sake of discussion, I will only go into the 2 main types. The first type, the one which we are most familiar with, is the massive black hole created by a highly focused concentration of matter. The second type, less commonly known, are the micro-black holes that pop in and out of existence in mere nano-seconds or less. This type, is not created by massive amounts of mass, rather by an extreme concentration of energy. However, energy is 'free-flowing' (like water compared to ice), where as matter is more stable. So the micro-black holes last for a very short time, but unlike their massive matter-based brethren... they are not so dangerous. Herein lies the answer...

Earths gravity field is massive, however it is spread out in a large volume of space. Its true strength is diluted. I shall give you an analogy. If a man lies down on a bed of nails, he will be unharmed, merely feeling the prickles of the many nails on his back. However, if that same man were to place all his weight on just a single nail... It would puncture his skin, and be driven into his body. Most celestial bodies are like the man on the bed of nails. The 'weight' (or gravity potential) of a celestial body is incredibly great, but that 'weight' is spread out over a large volume of space (the many nails) and is therefore diluted so that it cannot 'puncture' the fabric of space time (the skin). However, if one were able to somehow take the full gravity potential of an entire planet... and focus it, into a single location in space (as opposed to a wide area, or volume... ;) ...Now we can start talking about those things Owen... :p ), you could concievably 'puncture' the fabric of space/time itself... creating a Hyperspace Window. However... we run into a problem.

The Earth's gravity field is matter-based... this means it could be too dangerous to utilize. Also, it is likely that hyper-space window opened by Earth's gravity potential would be a monster sized hole in space. Not as massive as a black hole, but very dangerous none the less. We must once again find another solution. For that, we have to return to the energy-based gravity field. We know they exist... we just don't know how to produce them... at least not entirely... yet.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1281736.html

The above link, is part of the next step in the explanation. If we could somehow manipulate a great enough energy-based gravity field... it might be possible to form a hyperspace window suffiecently large enough to send a ship through. If we could take the energy-based gravity field, and focus it on a single area of space, we could 'puncture' the fabric of space/time, making a 'hole' just large enough to send a ship through, and last only long enough for an object to pass through, and then dissapear as thought it had never been. Thus... you have your hyperspace window. I offer you the 'how' it might be possible. I look forward to any feedback on it, anyone might want to offer. (You too Owen...! :p ) ;)

:eek:

aAnubiSs
May 10th, 2005, 06:28 AM
Well some theories say that if you'd be able to open up a hyperspace window, or create a ZPM, the universe would blow up. String/Super String/M-theory in a nutshell. Whatever ideas one theory has there's another billion that says it wouldn't work :)

YodaMate
May 10th, 2005, 07:10 AM
Sorry, another long one, but hyperspace deserves it :)

The gravity manipulation theory sounds promising, well thought out. We have seen two occasions when gravity disturbed a hyperspace traveller ;

- in Memento, Earth was using its primitive and relatively unstable naquadria hyperdrive, when they passed too close to a gravity field (i forget what it was, a gas cloud or something) that caused the drive's energy to flux and overload the safety buffer on the drive. This made the drive very dangerous to use.

- The sudden gravitational distortion of a star going supernova affected SG-1 and Apophis' ships in hyperspace, causing them to 'speed up' (for lack of a better term) and they emerged in another galaxy.

Also, Sam didn't want to use Jack's modified hyperdrive in the proximity of a black hole.

From numerous episodes of the show(s), we can see that a hyperdrive uses up a lot of energy. Ships emerging from hyperspace have a moment where they are vulnerable as they transfer power back to weapons/shields.

My interpretation, based mostly from the asteroid episode, is that 'hyperspace' is indeed another dimension in which it is possible to travel at speeds greater than that of light. Because it is another dimension, under Stargate rules, things that are present in our dimension (such as planets) do not actually exist there and thus, SG-1 was able to fly right through Earth. However, as noted above, the gravity fields of objects can affect hyperspace under abnormal conditions.

The other thing i took away from the asteroid episode is the impression that the hyperdrive acts to create a sort of 'bubble' field around an object once in hyperspace. I suspect that whilst the energy (or whatever it is that we can see in hyperspace) can flow freely there, solid objects from our dimension (like ships, for instance) can't remain in hyperspace without help essentially because they don't 'belong' in that dimension. I got this impression because Sam had to expand the field to include the asteroid and was worried that if the hyperdrive failed under the strain, that both SG-1 and the asteroid would reappear inside the Earth itself. In sum, you need the drive to get in hyperspace and to stay there.

My theory on subspace is that it is another dimension similar to hyperspace (in fact, come to think of it, they may be one and the same) but instead of forcing an object protected by a field in it to travel, one uses devices to send energy through it. This energy can be a message, or even Stargate energy (i.e. people and objects) sent along a wormhole conduit and received elsewhere in our dimension if you have the right device. I was thinking about the Tollan episode where Daniel says "you're talking about folding space" and Omac shakes his head after bringing the two ends of his branch together.

_Owen_
May 11th, 2005, 02:03 PM
Oh boy... I'm afraid this is gonna be another long post. Cant' be helped I suppose. Oh well. This is yet another question I've put a lot of thought into... and will therefore try to relate to all of you. It all comes down to that most mysterious, and yet universally important force of nature... Gravity.

According to physics, Gravity seems to be the weakest of all the forces of nature. Electromagnetic energy seems to be strongest. However, several relatively recent theories about gravity may help to shed some light on this. However weak gravity may be, it is obviously the thing that holds the universe togethor into some coherent form. Yet it doesn't make any intuitive sense, that gravity should be the weakest force of nature. Perhaps it isn't. One idea runs like this... Gravity is the one force of nature that provides us with.. a doorway into the other layers of space. Gravity works within all these layers, and thus, it seems weaker in 'normal' space because its powers are more spread out, or you might say 'diluted', than the other forces of nature. Electromagnetism is particularly strong, perhaps because it is a more 'concentrated' form of energy.

Concentration, or focus... is the key. Gravity is not usually associated with those words, except on rare occaisions. A gravity field is spread out over a wide area of space. The Suns gravity field radiates outward for many billions and billions of miles. The gravity field of the Earth keeps the Moon, roughly 1/3 the size of Earth tethered to it. The force of gravity does some incredible things, but on such a colossal scale as to defy any practical usage. In at least one instance, gravity is focused... but the price is too terrible to ever utilize. A Black Hole... The vast amount of mass is so 'heavy' that it literally pulls everything else into it... a monster, with a mouth like some cosmic shark pulling everything into it. Literally ripping the fabric of space/time itself. Yet, as terrible as the black hole is... it provides us with the solution to opening a door into those other layers of space. Focused Gravity.

There are in fact several different types of black holes, but for the sake of discussion, I will only go into the 2 main types. The first type, the one which we are most familiar with, is the massive black hole created by a highly focused concentration of matter. The second type, less commonly known, are the micro-black holes that pop in and out of existence in mere nano-seconds or less. This type, is not created by massive amounts of mass, rather by an extreme concentration of energy. However, energy is 'free-flowing' (like water compared to ice), where as matter is more stable. So the micro-black holes last for a very short time, but unlike their massive matter-based brethren... they are not so dangerous. Herein lies the answer...

Earths gravity field is massive, however it is spread out in a large volume of space. Its true strength is diluted. I shall give you an analogy. If a man lies down on a bed of nails, he will be unharmed, merely feeling the prickles of the many nails on his back. However, if that same man were to place all his weight on just a single nail... It would puncture his skin, and be driven into his body. Most celestial bodies are like the man on the bed of nails. The 'weight' (or gravity potential) of a celestial body is incredibly great, but that 'weight' is spread out over a large volume of space (the many nails) and is therefore diluted so that it cannot 'puncture' the fabric of space time (the skin). However, if one were able to somehow take the full gravity potential of an entire planet... and focus it, into a single location in space (as opposed to a wide area, or volume... ;) ...Now we can start talking about those things Owen... :p ), you could concievably 'puncture' the fabric of space/time itself... creating a Hyperspace Window. However... we run into a problem.

The Earth's gravity field is matter-based... this means it could be too dangerous to utilize. Also, it is likely that hyper-space window opened by Earth's gravity potential would be a monster sized hole in space. Not as massive as a black hole, but very dangerous none the less. We must once again find another solution. For that, we have to return to the energy-based gravity field. We know they exist... we just don't know how to produce them... at least not entirely... yet.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1281736.html

The above link, is part of the next step in the explanation. If we could somehow manipulate a great enough energy-based gravity field... it might be possible to form a hyperspace window suffiecently large enough to send a ship through. If we could take the energy-based gravity field, and focus it on a single area of space, we could 'puncture' the fabric of space/time, making a 'hole' just large enough to send a ship through, and last only long enough for an object to pass through, and then dissapear as thought it had never been. Thus... you have your hyperspace window. I offer you the 'how' it might be possible. I look forward to any feedback on it, anyone might want to offer. (You too Owen...! :p ) ;)

:eek:
Actually, I agree with this theory, I have been looking for a way to puncture the fabric of space time, an incredible concentration of gravity was one of the possibilities. The only problem is that you would need a very specific gravity field otherwise, there is no way that you would know exactly what layer you are entering. I have so many theories that I would like to share with you but unfortuanatly I can't, I am a little paranoid, but at the same time, you have no idea how anxious I am to tell poeple. Sorry that really has nothing to do with anything.

Basically I agree with Seastallions' post and can't find anything to argue about.

For anyone that had a hard time sorting through those posts, the concensus is that hyperspace engines create a rip in the fabric of space time, to a layer of hyperspace, hence, hyperspace window, a possibility of exactly how the engines create this tear is using a large amount of concentrated energy based gravity.

About the universe ripping it self appart, it seems that the strings would unwind and the universe would, esentialy "fall apart." I have a theory that contradicts this, however I can't tell you, paranoid, sorry everyone.

Owen Macri

Seastallion
May 11th, 2005, 03:02 PM
Presumably, the "hyperdrive" warp the space around the ship, so you travel (http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=Travel) a lot of distance in 3-D space when you in fact travel (http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=Travel) only a small distance in the 4-D space-time.

You are thinking of Warp Drive, which is different from a Hyper Drive. A Warp Drive creates a bubble or 'pocket' of space around the ship. The laws of physics state that nothing can accelerate faster than the speed of light, however that does not apply to 'space' itself. That is where the Warp Drive comes in. Essentially you are creating a seperate pocket of space that is itself a propulsive field, to 'propel' the ship through space. You shrink the space ahead of you, while simultaneously expanding the space behind you. It is sort of like riding a wave, at the beach. The bubble also acts to reduce the apparent mass of the starship in 'normal' space thus eliminating that pesky mass/fuel ratio thing... :p In any case, it is sort of the lubricating 'grease' approach to space travel. Space itself can accelerate faster than light... so no pesky Relativity Laws to worry about. It could work. A physicist named Miguel Albuceirre has already figured out how it could work. The problem is, you need negative energy to make it work... and unfortunately we don't know how to make it. :(

On the other hand... I believe a Hyper Drive would create a bubble around a spaceship (I think we saw it in 'Grace') to protect it during its flight in hyperspace. Essentially, a physical object doesn't really belong in hyperspace, so it would likely need some sort of 'bubble' to maintain its physical structure during hyperspace travel. It probably isn't entirely different from a Warp Drive bubble... but they do serve to fundamentally different purposes. In a Hyperdrive, the bubble is just to protect the ship during transit. In Warp Drive, the bubble is the actual medium of travel itself. This means that a warp drive bubble is more complicated in 'construction' because it is has to be animated to be a propulsive medium. A hyperspace bubble simply has to maintain its form, rather like a soap bubble.

The main difference would be like this... The hyperspace bubble is a stable structure like that soap bubble. A Warp bubble is like an air bubble traveling from under the water to the surface. There is 'turbulance' on the surface of the bubble. (meaning it is unstable because it 'moves') However, it is that turbulance that actually allows the bubble to act as a propulsive medium. The idea is, that if you can find the proper 'field oscillations' you could theoretically control both the speed and direction of the bubble. Thus, allowing a ship to travel at hyperluminal speeds.

Keep in mind though... in neither Hyerspace or Warp drive are you actually 'moving' in real space. In both cases, it is sort of like riding one of those 'moving sidewalks' at the airport. You, yourself are standing still but the area you are standing on is itself moving. To stop moving... you just have to step off of the 'sidewalk'. Particularly with Warp drive.

With Hypespace travel, I suspect your 'speed' is proportional to how much energy you pour into the gravity field emitter on your hyperdrive. I also suspect that frequency and amplitude play as much a role as 'volume' in terms of energy adjustments. However, that is far beyond our discussion here. Those sort of things are what you would deal with in actual use of such technology. You have to maintain constant vigilance of very complicated data feeds, and field control outputs. How well you can do those things will likely determine how fast, far, and efficiently you can go.

_Owen_
May 11th, 2005, 03:58 PM
With Hypespace travel, I suspect your 'speed' is proportional to how much energy you pour into the gravity field emitter on your hyperdrive. I also suspect that frequency and amplitude play as much a role as 'volume' in terms of energy adjustments. However, that is far beyond our discussion here. Those sort of things are what you would deal with in actual use of such technology. You have to maintain constant vigilance of very complicated data feeds, and field control outputs. How well you can do those things will likely determine how fast, far, and efficiently you can go.


I believe you are partly correct. As I have said previously, I beleive that when traveling in hyperspace you can cross less distance in hyperspace, but when translated to distance in normal space it is actually greater, so you can travel a greater distance in less time.

Therefore, you are partly correct by saying the speed that travel is directly proportional to the amount of gravity input into the aritficial field used to create a rip in space time. I believe the more gravity you input, the "deeper" the rip is allowing you to enter a deeper and deeper layer of hyperspace. In deeper layers of hyperspace the distance diffrence between that layer and regular space increases allowing you to travel farther in a shorter amount of time. For example in one layer of hyperspace you may be able to travel one lightyear, where in our space it would equal two lightyears. However in a deeper layer you could travel one lightyear and in our space it would equal five light years, thus allowing you to travel a greater distance in a shorter amount of time.

However the reason that I said you were partly right is because you, well you weren't partly wrong, it was just incomplete, even when traveling in hyperspace the ship still travels at speeds that it would normally travel at in our space so it could travel at a billion km a second in regular space but it would also be traveling a billion km a second when they entered hyperspace, however when anylizing the distances traveled and the time surpassed in the travel to find the speed it would seem as though in our space to travel this distance in this time you would have to cross the lightspeed barrier, hence the term sublight speed which is often used on the prometheus when in reality they are always traveling at sublight speed.

So the speed you travel is and isn't proportional to the amount of gravity input into the formation of the hyperspace window, or the layer of hyperspace that you are traveling in. Technically, speed isn't proportional to layer, it is proportional to distance, however it could be seen as proportional when converting distance measurments traveled and surpased time in hyperspace into what I am going to call "normal space-time."

Technically the speed you travel is only as fast as your engines can push, ruling out other anomalies of course, and the distance you travel is proportional to the layer of hyperspace you are traveling in.

(That is a long post to contadict one point that was probably just a slip up with words.)

Owen Macri

Seastallion
May 12th, 2005, 10:48 PM
Actually, I was just trying to explain the difference between a Hyperdrive, and Warp drive. In either case, your dealing with highly complex energy fields that need constant 'supervision'. In the segment you posted, the same would be true for Warp drives... in fact especially so. Warp drive is more unstable, because it depends on field oscillation. Hyperdrive is a little more direct, but even so to change speed and direction with hyperspace, once your there, you will need to make subtle adjustments. That is all I was trying to express. :)

_Owen_
May 13th, 2005, 01:57 PM
No I understood what you meant, and I apoligize for nitpicking. I was just kind of bored so I decided to nitpick.

Owen Macri

Seastallion
May 16th, 2005, 03:07 AM
LOL That's ok. If we didn't nitpick at least a little this entire forum would be pointless, wouldn't it..? ;) As long as our nitpicking is actually relevant to the topic, it's ok... :p

:eek:

_Owen_
May 16th, 2005, 01:49 PM
That is a good point, someone would post a theory, and even if it was violating a major law of physics, we did not post, then the forum would just be full of 1 post threads.

Owen Macri

Seastallion
May 16th, 2005, 07:11 PM
That is a good point, someone would post a theory, and even if it was violating a major law of physics, we did not post, then the forum would just be full of 1 post threads.

Owen Macri

...and of course that would be incredibly boring... :p ugh! :D

:eek:

_Owen_
May 16th, 2005, 07:12 PM
This is much better.

Owen Macri

Kull Worrior
May 21st, 2010, 07:46 PM
OK what about the attero device from Stargate Atlantis what would cause the ships to explode a fatal hiperdrive overload (i know fatal is an understatement), but still how could that have affected the hyperdrive? I heard what i believe was MaCay talk about a hyperspace or subspace static, but that goes into how each race have their own hyperspace "frequency", and now i know this whole thing goes off topic of the thread but still while were on the topic of how it affects things why did it make the stargate explode. thanks for any in site.

escyos
May 21st, 2010, 11:38 PM
i think it is: the hyperdrive creates a window into subspace, the ship enters, subspace is smaller than regular space so distances are shorter and the effects of time dilation do not apply so ships can travel faster than light. being unnatural to subspace (in the same way, gravitons are believed to be) the ship would be pushed out of subspace without the ship having to do anything. essentially you just cut power and you drop out.

Cmdr. Setsuna F. Seyei
May 30th, 2010, 11:47 AM
in mckay and mrs miller, sam tells Mrs. miller that she is traveling in subpace when she asks if subpace is really real. At that time they were in hyperspace so according to the show subspace and hyperspace are the same thing.

lordofseas
May 30th, 2010, 12:47 PM
in mckay and mrs miller, sam tells Mrs. miller that she is traveling in subpace when she asks if subpace is really real. At that time they were in hyperspace so according to the show subspace and hyperspace are the same thing.

Hyperspace is subspace. However, I think the subspace is not hyperspace. Then again, I'm not a physicist.

thekillman
June 1st, 2010, 07:21 AM
in mckay and mrs miller, sam tells Mrs. miller that she is traveling in subpace when she asks if subpace is really real. At that time they were in hyperspace so according to the show subspace and hyperspace are the same thing.
hyperspace is the tunnel through subspace.


a tunnel goes through a mountain. the mountain is subspace, the tunnel hyperspace. but if you're in hyperspace, then you are in subspace, but not the other way around nessecarily