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Stan
May 5th, 2005, 10:06 AM
Afternoon all.

Two gates make a connection and it takes a lot of power.

Can a third be used as a relay?

Instead of a seven character address, it would be thirteen or fourteen symbols in length?

Idea

Special self destructing crystal placed in gate.

Dial in thirty seven symbol scrambled a address and travel from A to B, via C, D, E and F...

_Owen_
May 6th, 2005, 10:47 AM
That could work, but not with the Stargate, there aren't enough chevrons. Also each galaxy is in a seprate group, so even if you went to the planet in your galaxy closest to another galaxy you would still need an eigth chevron, it was a good idea, but not with the stargate.

Owen Macri

6thMonolith
May 6th, 2005, 02:52 PM
That would be tough to do. If it was possible, the bends in space would be horrifically huge. It might be possible to 'gate hop closer to your destination, to use less power, But I dont think that chevrons could be reused in that way.

Darth Buddha
May 6th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Does distance even matter?

Yes, we DO know that calling outside the local dialing area takes more energy, but all local calls could be created equal.

TechnoWraith
May 6th, 2005, 03:34 PM
Power consumption would become an issue, since we know that dialing the Pegasus gate ate up a ton of power. So if we follow that precedent, there's going to come a point where we won't be able to dial out to certain long-distance gates for the simple reason that we just can't generate enough power for the gate.

_Owen_
May 6th, 2005, 05:35 PM
There will always be new and more powerful sources of energy.

Owen Macri

Colonel Sharp
May 31st, 2005, 02:35 PM
Another problem is the eight chevron locking, as seen in "Home" you need a special crystal to lock the eight chevron and I'm geussing every gate doesn't have that.

greytop
May 31st, 2005, 04:45 PM
Another problem is the eight chevron locking, as seen in "Home" you need a special crystal to lock the eight chevron and I'm geussing every gate doesn't have that.As I understand it, that is only in the Pegsus galaxy you need the crystal. You probaly need on in the MW too but the SGC does need one for their DHD is only permnant rigged DHD in the system, that I know of.

Colonel Sharp
May 31st, 2005, 05:31 PM
Thats what I was thinking, so it may only be in the pegasus galaxy, but thats still a lot of gates.

YodaMate
May 31st, 2005, 11:56 PM
Though if the Ancients were concerned with saving power for ZPM-less primitives like us, then for 'gate-ship' travel they could have put a string of Stargates between galaxies :)

EDIT : One of my pet theories is that the Ancients have put a 'quarantine' into the gates of Pegasus (or more accurately the DHDs) to prevent the Wraith (if they were to find a ZPM) from dialling extra-galactic. To bypass the quarantine code, you need to have the special control crystal, which can be found hooked up to Atlantis' computers.

Though obviously the Ancients allowed the gates within Pegasus to dial each other, probably to let the abandoned humans of Pegasus continue to communicate with each other (with the notable exception of Atlantis).

_Owen_
June 1st, 2005, 05:07 PM
Only in the Pegasus galaxy do the Stargates require the Atlantis control crystal to make an eight chevron lock. I agree with Yoda, the foremost theory is that the Ancients needed to quarantine the Pagasus galaxy. Not so much because of a disease but because they were experimenting with evolution, and if something bad were to evolve (like, oh, say, the Wraith) they could not be allowed to "contaminate" other parts of the universe, they couldn't be allowed to leave. The way they accomplished this was with the DHD's they made it necesary for Atlantis gates to be connected to the control crystal designed for the Atlantis DHD.

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
June 29th, 2005, 05:04 PM
I don't think that these would be possible, but not for the reasons already stated.

The number of chevrons should not be a problem. It would mean using a custom program in the DHD. I think that it would be a problem because it would introduce a new mode of operation for the stargate. Right now we have three.

1) Connect to 1 stargate send.
2) Connect to 1 stargate receive.
3) Conect to many stargates and ???? (I am not sure what the properties are of a conection to many stargates)

We would need to introduce a fourth mode of operation.

4) Connect to a sending stargate, connect to a receiving stargate and pass from one to the other.

Actually, I suppose that there might be another way to "bounce" from one stargate to another. You could use a program simular to avenger. It would be programed to change the programming on the receving stargate so that it would hold the travelers in buffer instead of rematerializing them. When the worm hole was was ended, it would then dial another gate, connect a wormhole without wiping the contents of the buffer, then pass the avenger-like program and the passangers to the next gate. In this manner travels could be passed from gate to gate.

This option would require a number of things:

1) An Avenger-like program could be created that could change gate functions, and not just DHD functions.
2) A worm-hole connection can be made without clearing the buffer. (i.e. through the characteristic whoosh. In 48 hours they did not establish a wormhole connection.)
3) The recieve buffer can be fed into an outgoing worm-hole. This could be problematic for example the interpretation of the buffer contents is unique to the specific connection, or if the receive and send buffers are seperate.

This brings up the question: Why would you want to do this? It would not be useful disguising where you are coming from. It is already impossible to know the source of an incoming wormhole. It may be useful to disguise where you are going, but that would require the ability to inject the Avenger-like program without leaving a trail. I may be useful to take people through the stargate without revealing to them the destination. For example to take people to a meeting at a secret location. It may be possible to use the gates as relays. You would gate from one gate to the other. Each connection would be powered by a different gate, and would only need to power that segment. Of course, over long distances this might require a large number of gates and use much time, as each segment must disengage and connect to the next in sequence.

Quakerbone
June 29th, 2005, 06:16 PM
The distance between the MW gates is quite small, compared to others. Where conventional hyperdrives can cross distances between worlds in days or less, the distances between galaxies are huge. "Hopping" between Gates would be like taking a small plane from one town on a island to another. No matter how far you go, you will only get slightly closer to a distant destination. Even going between galaxies, like ours and the Asgard, in the same Local Group requires a great amount of energy (The Fifth Race). Going between galaxies is like jumping from one island to another in an archipelago. Pegasus is in a different Local Group, and would be like flying across an ocean to another continent.

LiquidBlue
June 29th, 2005, 06:45 PM
The distance between the MW gates is quite small, compared to others. Where conventional hyperdrives can cross distances between worlds in days or less, the distances between galaxies are huge. "Hopping" between Gates would be like taking a small plane from one town on a island to another. No matter how far you go, you will only get slightly closer to a distant destination. Even going between galaxies, like ours and the Asgard, in the same Local Group requires a great amount of energy (The Fifth Race). Going between galaxies is like jumping from one island to another in an archipelago. Pegasus is in a different Local Group, and would be like flying across an ocean to another continent.

What did people do before planes could cross the pacific? The used islands as places to stop and refuel. See for example the history of Midway Island. Of course as I pointed out in my previous post. Intergalactic travel, or as you pointed out, intergroup travel, would require many (many in this case being literally astronomical) stargates, and would be very slow. In fact in this case we may even have to worry about the size of the travel itinerary.

Quakerbone
June 29th, 2005, 07:01 PM
What did people do before planes could cross the pacific? The used islands as places to stop and refuel. See for example the history of Midway Island. Of course as I pointed out in my previous post. Intergalactic travel, or as you pointed out, intergroup travel, would require many (many in this case being literally astronomical) stargates, and would be very slow. In fact in this case we may even have to worry about the size of the travel itinerary.

See: "The Influence of Sea Power Upon History" Alfred T Mahan

Of course. Midway, Guam, Phillipines: they were all examples of how America, like other nations, used islands as fueling points for trans-ocean travel. This However, there are no such islands in the universe that we know of- no such thing as a rouge system or planet to place a Gate on (let alone life to necessitate a Gate). This could be a major hinderance to the Gate-hopping theory.

LiquidBlue
June 30th, 2005, 03:21 PM
I agree with Quakerbone. I think we are looking at the same idea from different objectives. I was speculating on the technological possibility that stargates might be used for long distance travel. Quakerbone seems to have added the very practical (of course we remeber that this is fiction) consideration that it is not likely that there is a path one might take to travel between these two galaxies.

What if we consider the question - How might the stargates be used to travel between earth and Atlantis without using a ZPM?

I wish to offer one scenario. It draws upon my previous "bouncing" proposal. I will assume that the following are possible:

1) A person can be loaded in a stargate's send buffer.
2) An outgoing wormhole can be established without clearing the buffer.
3) A useful amount of information can be transfered from the sending buffer to the receiving buffer in a very short amount of time.

These are only 3 features of a stargate that are necessarily for the following intergalactic travel scheme. For example, to travel from atlantis to earth one would do the following.

1) Establish the protocol on both ends.
2) Load the people and objects you want to send into the atlantis gate send buffer.
3) Connect to the earth stargate in the same way as message in the bottle, taking care that the send buffer is not cleared in the process.
4) In the miniscule time that the wormhole is active the contents of the send buffer are transfered to the contents of the receive buffer.
5) According to this protocol, the earth gate will not materialize these people and objects -- The event horizon wouldn't last long enough in case to do so. Instead the earth gate creates a not connecting event horizon after the wormhole disengages and the travelers are rematerialized?

Thus intergalactic travel is made possible.

_Owen_
July 3rd, 2005, 07:39 PM
Your idea for intergalactic travel without a ZPM, is a good one, the only problem is, for it, you would need a ZPM, in the episode "Letters From Pegasus," I believe they use the very small amount of power in the ZPMs to dial Earth, but the power was only great enough to sustain the wormhole for just over a second. We know that you can't establish an eight chevron lock without some other power source, see, "The Fifth Race," they cannot redial the adress that O'Neill goes to becuase sufficient power is not avilable. So, while your idea is a very good one, and you would not need a fully charged ZPM, you would need a little extra power. Sorry. I like your idea, though it is smart, and well thought out, you just missed one thing, which would have been easy to miss. Sorry again.

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
July 25th, 2005, 07:44 AM
Special self destructing crystal placed in gate.


Here is a go at an idea from the original poster.

We have seen that the SGC has the abilities to create and load custom programs into any standard DHD in the galaxy. What uses could they put it to. So far they have tried one:

Remotely disabling the dial out ability of a DHD. Unfortunately, Ba'al noticed that one of his gates had stopped working, and quickly made figured out what had happened.

Perhaps there might be some more covert uses.

1) Program DHDs so that they broadcast the location/address of the originating gate. Useful to the SGC when they might wonder where a wormhole is coming from.

2) Have the DHDs record and regularly transmit the records of all gate travel including origin, destination, and duration. It would certainly give them much intelligence concerning anyone they cared to inquire about. (Would Daniel worry about the privacy concerns?)

3) Lock out Earth's address. That is, whenever Earth is dialed the DHD and gate would pretend that the gate wasn't there or was buried. SG teams could use special 10-15 symbol strings, that periodicly change, to dial earth.

4) Hijack wormholes. You know that big bad enemy is on planet A. You reprogram the DHD on that planet so that all wormholes lead to a specially selected place, with many big men with stunners.

5) For those with a more evil bent - Hijack a wormhole. Every time someone dials an address it leads some where nasty, e.g. a wormhole.

6) Reverse Hijacking. Instead of sending every wormhole from a particular planet somewhere else, send every wormhole intended to a certain gate somewhere else.

etc.

What do you think? Any other ideas?

_Owen_
July 25th, 2005, 08:06 AM
Those are some good ideas, and many are very plausible. Nice post.

Number three definetly has potential, as long as you could override from the location, incase you had to use that gate. But you could always dail somewhere not locked out and then to Earth. So yes, number three definetly has some potential.

Well actually they all have potential I just particularly noticed number three.

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
July 27th, 2005, 05:22 PM
More Fun with Gate/DHD programming


Rolling Denial of Service: You want to make sure that a certain gate cannot be used to dial out. You connect a wormhole to it. When that wormhole can no longer be maintained and it disconnects, you have another gate dial in. That is, it is already dialing when the wormhole disengages. You would be any one dialing out because they cannot start dialing until after the wormhole disengages. (Note that this isn't strict a DHD programming issue, with coordination and effective communication, anyone with two gates could do it. Imagine the trouble earth would have been in is a Goa'uld, see for example Sokar, had used this strategy.)

DHD Russian Roulette: This has the similar effect that the Avenger virus has, that is it disrupts gate travel, but it has the added advantage that it is not immediately obvious that something is wrong. A wormhole is still established.

Russian Roullette II: Each object going through the gate has random chance of rematerializing. This accomplished by either note sending the object complete flag or ignoring the object complete flag - depending on the gate to be programed. Imagine what would happen to gate travel if it was realized that one only had a certain chance of coming out again!

Freenet: Each DHD acts as a node. During correlative updates (which may need to be increased in frequency) the nodes also transmit other information. Thus messages may be passed from one DHD to another anonymously. The perfect tool for the secret agent (see Tok'ra) that needs to be able communicate with other worlds without having to resort to extra and incriminating technology. Works even better if the DHD can be programmed to work as a terminal for reading and composing messages.

Object Authentication: Equip SG teams with object that leave a certain signature when dematerialized, have the gate search the matter streams for that signature. If the signature is not found then treat that object as if the object complete flag is not set.

LiquidBlue
July 27th, 2005, 05:28 PM
I missed one.


Dialing for Power. Use the dial multiple gates function. Dial the gate that you want to send objects to and a gate that is in an environment that provides power to the gate (such as the blackhole gate). We have never seen what happens to an object that passes through a stargate connected to multiple gates, but I am going to imagine that it is possible to specify which gate is going to receive the object and that the rest of the connections only pass EM energy. Assuming that this is possible, you have a method to power high enery connections and/or maintain a wormhole for a non-standard time. (One would have to prepare the means to disengage the wormhole seperately.)

mightydefiant
July 27th, 2005, 08:37 PM
I got one: A way to do a redail/recall:good for sending meany items to another planet like when they moved the alpa site and when running after someone and you didn't see all the symbles before it disengaed.

_Owen_
July 27th, 2005, 09:00 PM
Lol, good posts guys!

Owen Macri

LiquidBlue
September 16th, 2005, 09:34 PM
Anubis seems to have less nasty imagination than I do. Perhaps it is because we couldn't let our protagonists die. Was there any advantage to his solution? (Bouncing an unathenthicated traveler vs. Erasing an unathenticated traveler)

We now know that the following is possible:
1) It is possible to establish a wormhole without clearing the pattern buffer.
2) It is possible to re-transmit objects from the receive buffer without first materializing them.
3) It is possible to anylze objects within the buffer and discriminate between them.

The episode DHD used a special control circuit to accomplish this. It is not clearly whether any of this could be done with a software solution.

Three PhDs
September 17th, 2005, 01:51 PM
As stated in the episode, which you all seemed to have missed, the gate stores the info it has received, then just calls back out and sends it on. What's all this 14 chevron crap?

Ollock
September 17th, 2005, 09:11 PM
A few Questions:

1 A Wormhole has only two parts in real space, the event horizons at either end. The tunnel goes through Hyperspace/supspace/nonspace or whatever you call it. This stated, how would you make a wormhole go through an extra stargate if the only part of a wormhole that can interact with the Stargate is not present?

2 Event horizon without the wormhole? Please state how this is possible. I really don't think it can be done, even with a black or white hole generated, as I have never heard of anything but a specific type wormhole having a flat event horizon (most objects with event horizons have spherical ones),

LiquidBlue
September 19th, 2005, 07:25 AM
A few Questions:

1 A Wormhole has only two parts in real space, the event horizons at either end. The tunnel goes through Hyperspace/supspace/nonspace or whatever you call it. This stated, how would you make a wormhole go through an extra stargate if the only part of a wormhole that can interact with the Stargate is not present?


Unfortunatley, to my mind, it is not the case that the wormholes seen in stargate do not interact with mudanse matter and space. This can be seen from the episodes "1969" and "Red Sky.

In "1969" A wormhole interacted with a solar flare in such a way the the detination was continuously varied depending on the time at which one entered the gate. (See specificly the second and third travels of that episode.)

In the episode "Red Sky", a wormhole introduced certainly elements that were incompatible with continued stellar fusion. the was latter corrrected by having another wormhole with other elements pass through that same star and disengage in wuch a way that those elements re-materialized within the star. (At least that is the theory.)

Thus we see that the path and structure of the wormhole can and does interact with ordinary space and matter to a limited extent. Ollock, your question remains. How could one use a third stargate in the manner described by Stan in the post that that created this thread.


Two gates make a connection and it takes a lot of power.

Can a third be used as a relay?

Instead of a seven character address, it would be thirteen or fourteen symbols in length?

Dial in thirty seven symbol scrambled a address and travel from A to B, via C, D, E and F...

In my first reply to this thread I offered the following anlysis:


I don't think that these would be possible, but not for the reasons already stated.

The number of chevrons should not be a problem. It would mean using a custom program in the DHD. I think that it would be a problem because it would introduce a new mode of operation for the stargate. Right now we have three.

1) Connect to 1 stargate send.
2) Connect to 1 stargate receive.
3) Conect to many stargates and ???? (I am not sure what the properties are of a conection to many stargates)

We would need to introduce a fourth mode of operation.

4) Connect to a sending stargate, connect to a receiving stargate and pass from one to the other.

We still do not know that such a fourth mode of operation is possible. My recollection of "Prototype" is that it did not invoke this mode of operation, but rather employed the "Bouncing" protocol I have described, and I will provide an overview of this protocol further in this post.



2 Event horizon without the wormhole? Please state how this is possible. I really don't think it can be done, even with a black or white hole generated, as I have never heard of anything but a specific type wormhole having a flat event horizon (most objects with event horizons have spherical ones),

I may be wrong, and I would welcome any corrections or further illumination, but according to current, real life physics theorys. A Wormhole if created would not be surrounded by an even horizon. In fact, I beleive that it has been suggestted that this is one reason why wormholes cannot naturely exist, or possibly even created. The idea is that "feedback" between the two opening would lead towards infinite energy densities within the wormhole pinching it off. I believe it has been suggested that this may not completely preclude wormholes, but that it would create a minimum distance between the two entrances.

However, Olleck, you question was concerning an event horizon with establishing a wormhole. I believe you were referring to the protocol I wrote concerning a means to travel btween MW and pegasus without the need for a worm-hole connection that lasts for any great amount of time. For clarity I will include that protocol.


What if we consider the question - How might the stargates be used to travel between earth and Atlantis without using a ZPM?

I wish to offer one scenario. It draws upon my previous "bouncing" proposal. I will assume that the following are possible:

1) A person can be loaded in a stargate's send buffer.
2) An outgoing wormhole can be established without clearing the buffer.
3) A useful amount of information can be transfered from the sending buffer to the receiving buffer in a very short amount of time.

These are only 3 features of a stargate that are necessarily for the following intergalactic travel scheme. For example, to travel from atlantis to earth one would do the following.

1) Establish the protocol on both ends.
2) Load the people and objects you want to send into the atlantis gate send buffer.
3) Connect to the earth stargate in the same way as message in the bottle, taking care that the send buffer is not cleared in the process.
4) In the miniscule time that the wormhole is active the contents of the send buffer are transfered to the receive buffer.
5) According to this protocol, the earth gate will not materialize these people and objects -- The event horizon wouldn't last long enough in case to do so. Instead the earth gate creates a not connecting event horizon after the wormhole disengages and then travelers are rematerialized

Specifically is it possible to create a not connecting Event Horizon so that both people can be loaded into a stargate's buffer, and so that people can be recovered froma stargate buffer? The answer has been provided in the episode "48 hours." In this episode, the establish a not connecting event horizon to recover Tea'c who had become trapped within the buffer.

We must then ask our selves what is this event horizon. It is not necessarily associated with wormholes, rather it seems to associated with the transformation between objects and information suitable for storage and transmission. The definition is consistent with the even seen in Altantis's "38 minutes". That is, once an object passed through the even horizon it could no longer interact with objects on the other side. This fits with the generally understood definition of an event horizon.

For completeness I will include the "Bouncing Protocol." This is the reason I came back to this thread. "Prototype" showed that the condition I describe as necessary, are in fact possible in the stargate world.


Actually, I suppose that there might be another way to "bounce" from one stargate to another. You could use a program similar to avenger. It would be programed to change the programming on the receving stargate so that it would hold the travelers in buffer instead of rematerializing them. When the worm hole was was ended, it would then dial another gate, connect a wormhole without wiping the contents of the buffer, then pass the avenger-like program and the passangers to the next gate. In this manner travels could be passed from gate to gate.

This option would require a number of things:

1) An Avenger-like program could be created that could change gate functions, and not just DHD functions.
2) A worm-hole connection can be made without clearing the buffer. (i.e. through the characteristic whoosh. In 48 hours they did not establish a wormhole connection.)
3) The recieve buffer can be fed into an outgoing worm-hole. This could be problematic for example the interpretation of the buffer contents is unique to the specific connection, or if the receive and send buffers are seperate.

"Prototype" established that conditions 2 and 3 are possible. It is still not known that a DHD could be remotely reprogrammed to enable this type of operation. But the episode does show that it is possible to modify a DHD to perform these tasks.

I now submit to forum. Why would a "nice" guy like Anubis merely bounce unauthenticated travels to another planet when there are many things he could do to these travelers that would be must less pleasant?

Orange Crush
September 20th, 2005, 10:10 AM
^He was probably more concerned with being discovered by another Goa'uld. Think about it, if he just forwarded any organic matter, (And a Goa'uld MALP is organic--it's called a Jaffa) it would've wound up on a random boring planet, the Jaffa would report nothing of interest to their system lord. However, if the Jaffa didn't come back after some diabolical maiming job, their masters might suspect something juicy and worth sending a scout ship to check out.

Sure Anubis could've defended the planet and all, but it's easier not to have to in the first place.

"nothing to see here, move along . . . "

-Nick

LiquidBlue
September 21st, 2005, 09:40 AM
Perhaps the most interesting Gate technology to be reveiled in "Prototype" is the ability to analyze and manipulate objects within the buffer. With this true, one might wish to speculate on the limits of such actions.

First of all what kind of object analysis is possible? In the epsiode it was speculated that one could differentiate between organic and inorganic objects. Can one also differentiate objects based on their mass? Based on their volume? Based on the elements they contain?

Such simple analysis would be useful. One could let a person through, but not a ship for example bassed on the mass or volume. Or one could exclude an object that contains naquadah, or uranium, or plutonium. Perhaps one could decide not to materize a stream of energetic particles such as those which Sokar used to try to breach the iris.

The ability to manipulate objects is likely constrained to the decision to re-materialize the object or not.

Another possibility is one of knowledge. How do you defend against travelers that are invisible such as the Re'tu or the aliens from "Spirits". How do you defend against an object that can pass through the iris, such as with the Tollan phasing technology.

Perhaps one could quarantine all incoming travels, then determine whether to rematerialize them. For defense against those objects which can pass through the iris this is easy. You have the iris closed as a defense, while the iris is in defense mode, you refuse to rematerialize any incoming traveler. This has the added bonus that one has the option of bouncing them to another gate. In this way, the iris no longer an automatic death sentence.

For the invisible travels more care would be taken, they infiltrate by accompanying unknowing, legitimate travelers. In this case we would depend on some sort of object analysis If no information beyond the number of travelers is known and this number differs from the authorized number of travelers, or if one must deal within an unknown group, then one could simply rematerize the travelers one at a time within a sealed and quarantened area. If other anaylsis is available it may be possible to approve or reject travelers passed on other criteria.

The SGC with its custom gate controllers would be ideally situated to take adavantage of this new gate knowledge. Even if it would be difficult to implement changes in other, remote gates, the security of the SGC from incoming wormholes could be increased.

Three PhDs
September 21st, 2005, 11:26 AM
For the invisible travels more care would be taken, they infiltrate by accompanying unknowing, legitimate travelers. In this case we would depend on some sort of object analysis If no information beyond the number of travelers is known and this number differs from the authorized number of travelers, or if one must deal within an unknown group, then one could simply rematerize the travelers one at a time within a sealed and quarantened area. If other anaylsis is available it may be possible to approve or reject travelers passed on other criteria.Ignoring for a second that "Out of phase" is a complete joke, even those travellers would have to be made of either matter or energy, and thus would register when travelling through.

Dylan Deltoran
September 21st, 2005, 02:17 PM
Wow...lots of physics stuff...anyway...ummm someone mentioned an 8th chevron before, and I'd like to speculate about a 9th chevron (I'm sure someone has already but I don't feel like going through the entire forums to find it)...how much further out or what galaxy or galactic cluster do you think would be a 9th chevron adress?

Ollock
September 21st, 2005, 02:20 PM
Unfortunatley, to my mind, it is not the case that the wormholes seen in stargate do not interact with mudanse matter and space. This can be seen from the episodes "1969" and "Red Sky.

In "1969" A wormhole interacted with a solar flare in such a way the the detination was continuously varied depending on the time at which one entered the gate. (See specificly the second and third travels of that episode.)

In the episode "Red Sky", a wormhole introduced certainly elements that were incompatible with continued stellar fusion. the was latter corrrected by having another wormhole with other elements pass through that same star and disengage in wuch a way that those elements re-materialized within the star. (At least that is the theory.)

Thus we see that the path and structure of the wormhole can and does interact with ordinary space and matter to a limited extent. Ollock, your question remains. How could one use a third stargate in the manner described by Stan in the post that that created this thread.

Hmm, very interesting. I don't think I can counter the solar flare argument, though it could have something to do with the electomagnetic properties of such events. The effect in Red Sky, however, I think could be because the wormhole 'spits out' matter in whatever corresponding realspace as it collapses. I'm not on comfortable scientific grounds with that one though. might have to do some research later.



I may be wrong, and I would welcome any corrections or further illumination, but according to current, real life physics theorys. A Wormhole if created would not be surrounded by an even horizon. In fact, I beleive that it has been suggestted that this is one reason why wormholes cannot naturely exist, or possibly even created. The idea is that "feedback" between the two opening would lead towards infinite energy densities within the wormhole pinching it off. I believe it has been suggested that this may not completely preclude wormholes, but that it would create a minimum distance between the two entrances.

However, Olleck, you question was concerning an event horizon with establishing a wormhole. I believe you were referring to the protocol I wrote concerning a means to travel btween MW and pegasus without the need for a worm-hole connection that lasts for any great amount of time. For clarity I will include that protocol.

Quote:
What if we consider the question - How might the stargates be used to travel between earth and Atlantis without using a ZPM?

I wish to offer one scenario. It draws upon my previous "bouncing" proposal. I will assume that the following are possible:

1) A person can be loaded in a stargate's send buffer.
2) An outgoing wormhole can be established without clearing the buffer.
3) A useful amount of information can be transfered from the sending buffer to the receiving buffer in a very short amount of time.

These are only 3 features of a stargate that are necessarily for the following intergalactic travel scheme. For example, to travel from atlantis to earth one would do the following.

1) Establish the protocol on both ends.
2) Load the people and objects you want to send into the atlantis gate send buffer.
3) Connect to the earth stargate in the same way as message in the bottle, taking care that the send buffer is not cleared in the process.
4) In the miniscule time that the wormhole is active the contents of the send buffer are transfered to the receive buffer.
5) According to this protocol, the earth gate will not materialize these people and objects -- The event horizon wouldn't last long enough in case to do so. Instead the earth gate creates a not connecting event horizon after the wormhole disengages and then travelers are rematerialized


Specifically is it possible to create a not connecting Event Horizon so that both people can be loaded into a stargate's buffer, and so that people can be recovered froma stargate buffer? The answer has been provided in the episode "48 hours." In this episode, the establish a not connecting event horizon to recover Tea'c who had become trapped within the buffer.

We must then ask our selves what is this event horizon. It is not necessarily associated with wormholes, rather it seems to associated with the transformation between objects and information suitable for storage and transmission. The definition is consistent with the even seen in Altantis's "38 minutes". That is, once an object passed through the even horizon it could no longer interact with objects on the other side. This fits with the generally understood definition of an event horizon.

For completeness I will include the "Bouncing Protocol." This is the reason I came back to this thread. "Prototype" showed that the condition I describe as necessary, are in fact possible in the stargate world.

To be honest, I don't think I've heard the term 'event horizon' used in conjunction with wormholes all that much. I have read a couple of theories that indicate an 'opening' (one of which talks about a 'flat' or 'two-dimentional' opening similar to the event horizons seen in Stargate). Unfotunately I missed "Prototype" and have never seen "48 Hours", so I'm not certain about what they reveal.

LiquidBlue
September 24th, 2005, 08:35 AM
On November 9th, 2004, in the "Traveling to Atlantis" thread I wrote.


What prevented the Wraith from gating into Atlantis as the atlantis team did? The city shield was active, preventing the wraith from gaining access from the outside, but the iris shield was not active, thus allowing the Atlantis team to arrive... More than likely the Wraith know the Atlantis gate address. That of course leaves the question of why the Wraith never gated into Atlantis during those thousands of years it lay abandoned on the the ocean floor.

Now that we have seen that it is possible to differentiate between travelers and selectively rematerialize them, perhaps we have an answer to this question.

The ancients left the iris shield deactivated when they left, but they included a program to exclude wraith travelers. Thus the Atlantis team was not met by the iris shield when they first arrived, but any attempts by the wraith during that ~10,000 year interval to gate to atlantis failed.

This, opens another question. We have seen wraith travelers destroyed by the iris. Specificly, Wraith darts in "Rising". What happened to the program? It would not stretch the imagination to believe that upon the arrival of the atlantis team, the computer transitioned from one mode to another -- this is seen in "Rising." The Wraith exclusion program was part of the "sleep" mode but is not part of the "active" mode.


Ignoring for a second that "Out of phase" is a complete joke, even those travellers would have to be made of either matter or energy, and thus would register when travelling through.

Exactly. The iris does not protect against "out of phase" travelers. Thus the only way to protect against them would be to use the Anubis-like system to prevent them from rematerializing at all.

Three PhDs
September 24th, 2005, 09:41 AM
Now that we have seen that it is possible to differentiate between travelers and selectively rematerialize them, perhaps we have an answer to this question.

The ancients left the iris shield deactivated when they left, but they included a program to exclude wraith travelers. Thus the Atlantis team was not met by the iris shield when they first arrived, but any attempts by the wraith during that ~10,000 year interval to gate to atlantis failed.

This, opens another question. We have seen wraith travelers destroyed by the iris. Specificly, Wraith darts in "Rising". What happened to the program? It would not stretch the imagination to believe that upon the arrival of the atlantis team, the computer transitioned from one mode to another -- this is seen in "Rising." The Wraith exclusion program was part of the "sleep" mode but is not part of the "active" mode.



Exactly. The iris does not protect against "out of phase" travelers. Thus the only way to protect against them would be to use the Anubis-like system to prevent them from rematerializing at all.In that case, there'd be nothing to stop the wraith sending a probe then using that to remotely deactivate security. If you ask me, the gate could only dial earth and receive incoming wormholes from Earth. Seems the safest way to do it.

jonno
October 6th, 2005, 04:30 PM
This is just a theory, with no show related sources.

Perhaps there is another 'operation' of the stargate which allows you to follow a route via many stargates.

Perhaps this involves the ninth chevron.

My theory goes like this:
Enter (on your DHD) a specific 9 symbol sequence (not necesserily including the PoO), which causes the gate to switch to 'multi-gate travel mode.' Then press the big red button.
Then enter a long sequence of the 7 (or possibly even 8) symbols for each gate you wish to go through. Then press the big red button AGAIN. The gate activates, you step through and, as normal, you go to the planet you want, just via several stargates.

So, for example, to go from the earth alpha site to the Genii homeworld, via the atlantis gate, dial as follows:
A 9 sequence code activating 'multi gate mode'
The big red button
The 7 sequence code for Atlantis + the PoO of the alpha site immediately followed by the 6 sequence pegasus code for the Genii homeworld + the PoO of the alpha site
The big red button (again)
Step through

This raises the possibility of the Wraith dialling Earth, via Atlantis from one of their own gates (assuming they have a ZPM)

It also raises the possibility for additional gate modes, each with a distinctive preceding 9 sequence code.

GreatSpinningRoundThing
October 27th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Given protype gate tech and assuming that we could use a avengerlike program to overwrite default gate function, what could we do?

How about weapon sequestering? I first thought it the Prior's staves probably have an easily recognizable signature and could be preferentially sequested, but since the Tollan show that weapons in general can be recognized, perhaps it could be possible to instruct the entire gate network to sequester all weapons not authorized by the SGC. (Okay that is a bit outlandish)

How about Seiges? With Avenger one could make it disable a gate from initating an outgoing wormhole, if one could remotely install the prototype rejection function then it would be possible to prevent incoming wormholes. The same effect was suggested early, but it would have required reprogramming the entire gate network, and even then those with custum DHDs would not have been affected.

A modification of the load and transmit technique might allow gate travel to the Ori galaxy. Even if such a connection could only just be made, it might allow the passage of a couple, or a team, of travelers.

One of the most immediately useful modifications was the suggestion to modify the gate network so that it transmitted information about all gate activity to earth. With the prototype revelations, such information might not only include origin, destination, and duration, but also number of travels and travel composition.

Or how about something simple, straight from Reckoning:

Use the multiple gate dialing function to dial all of the gates in the galaxy, use a holographic projecture then to transmit Radio Earth which includes a nice illustrated section on what the Priors do to those who reject them, what life under their rule is like, and their plans for the galaxy.

Lt. Col. Mcoy
October 27th, 2005, 04:34 PM
Nope. Not gonna fly.

Lt. Col. Mcoy
October 27th, 2005, 04:35 PM
Given protype gate tech and assuming that we could use a avengerlike program to overwrite default gate function, what could we do?

How about weapon sequestering? I first thought it the Prior's staves probably have an easily recognizable signature and could be preferentially sequested, but since the Tollan show that weapons in general can be recognized, perhaps it could be possible to instruct the entire gate network to sequester all weapons not authorized by the SGC. (Okay that is a bit outlandish)

How about Seiges? With Avenger one could make it disable a gate from initating an outgoing wormhole, if one could remotely install the prototype rejection function then it would be possible to prevent incoming wormholes. The same effect was suggested early, but it would have required reprogramming the entire gate network, and even then those with custum DHDs would not have been affected.

A modification of the load and transmit technique might allow gate travel to the Ori galaxy. Even if such a connection could only just be made, it might allow the passage of a couple, or a team, of travelers.

One of the most immediately useful modifications was the suggestion to modify the gate network so that it transmitted information about all gate activity to earth. With the prototype revelations, such information might not only include origin, destination, and duration, but also number of travels and travel composition.

Or how about something simple, straight from Reckoning:

Use the multiple gate dialing function to dial all of the gates in the galaxy, use a holographic projecture then to transmit Radio Earth which includes a nice illustrated section on what the Priors do to those who reject them, what life under their rule is like, and their plans for the galaxy.
This has got style, though.