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LOKI LOKI
May 3rd, 2005, 09:09 AM
This may have been covered in another thread if so i couldnt find it and im sorry for repeating it. but..

Carter says in one of the episodes that naquadriah is the missing link they/ve been looking for as it produces the energy levels she thinks are neccesary for hyperspace travel and stable shields, however we never have any indication the gould use naquadriah (other than the first one that invented it) this is further highlighted by the fact anubis goes to jonas's planet to find it. so the gould still use normal naquadah for shields and hyperdrives. jacks "zpm" power generator thing uses the liquid naqaudah from a staff to power a wormhole to another galaxy could this be the same tech the gould use to power shields and hyperdrive with normal naquadah. we know the gould have stolen ancient tech so both they and jac have the same starting point. just my theory any ideas are welcomed

Crazedwraith
May 3rd, 2005, 09:15 AM
just to note Jack's deivce was in no way, shape, form or concept a ZPM.

As to the naquadriah thing. No the gao'uld dn't use it but also they don't have hyperdrives for craft smaller than a scoutship.

Ganjaman
May 3rd, 2005, 10:16 AM
true but their scout and cargo ships are quite small. Prometheus is much larger than either of these but it still uses an unstable naquadriah engine rather than a naquadah one.

Agent_Dark
May 4th, 2005, 02:27 AM
I would assume that the Goa'uld hyperspace technology is much more advanced than ours and we're unable to replicate it. That's why we need the higher energy output of the Naquadria to make up for the gap. Basically 'over-engineering' the problem.

_Owen_
May 6th, 2005, 11:27 AM
I agree with the previous posts, allthough I don't believe that the Prometheus would be able to use Naquadria, I know that they might have said it in the show but in real life, an unstable element like Naquadria, would be unstable in any application, therfore it wouldn't be able to power anything, just blow it up.

"The O'Neill Device," as I have christend it (not to be confused with "The O'Neill Weapon") is not a ZPM, and doesn't even use Zero Point Energy. It uses simple liquid naquadah as a power source, normally this wouldn't be powerful enough to create the energy output that it does, but the liquid naquadah is also surrounded by a modulated dampening field which increases the potential yield of the naquadah, this simply makes it a really advanced naquadah reactor.

Owen Macri

6thMonolith
May 6th, 2005, 05:39 PM
I agree with the previous posts, allthough I don't believe that the Prometheus would be able to use Naquadria, I know that they might have said it in the show but in real life, an unstable element like Naquadria, would be unstable in any application, therfore it wouldn't be able to power anything, just blow it up.

Owen Macri

Carter said that Naquadria becomes exponentially unstable when you try to take more power from it. I think that earth spent a lot of time thinking of a safeguard for the naquadria-drive. We know that they failed at first(The X-302), but eventually they got it working for our prommie. And it does give out tons of power.

As for the Goa'uld, http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s6/601.shtml#notes . The Goa'uld have non naquadria-drives, but they are huge, too large for the 302.

_Owen_
May 6th, 2005, 05:59 PM
Oh, ok, I got the impression that it was an unstable element alltogether, sorry about that.


Owen Macri

YodaMate
May 9th, 2005, 07:36 AM
O'Neill's Ancient power booster manages to boost the yield of SGC's power system and is designed to work in conjuction with a computer program (or so i think, it's been a while since i saw it last). I think that the small vial of naquadah is merely to power the booster, not provide the base for the enormous power requirement. And it's constructed as a jury rig for the Gate from 'primitive' parts. Not bad engineering, kinda like McGuvyer if he was an Ancient ;)

I believe that we can (and have) replicate the Goa'uld hyperdrive, it just took longer because Earth didn't get its hands on a Goa'uld ship bigger than a glider until the end of Season 4 and we only had that one briefly. We've had plenty of time to study the hyperdrive on the cargo ship acquired in late Season 5 and i believe that our hyperdrive suffers because it is ripped from the Goa'uld version.

The Goa'uld didn't have a way to extract more power in the fashion that the Ancient power booster does, and thus the size of their hyperdrive and its specific power generator unit was too big to fit on anything smaller than a cargo ship. I also have a longish theory related to the Goa'uld and their ships, but in summary i think improvements in design let Sokar do more with his power output (e.g. fly much faster in hyperspace, have a cloaking option, etc) and Anubis improved again allowing him to have stronger shields (in addition to their increased effectiveness, which is a separate matter) and better weapons.

But back to Earth, they struggled for a while cause they had this Goa'uld style 'small' hyperdrive whose power generator was too big to fit on a fighter. So they went for a generator with a bigger yield in naquadria with less than great results. The Prometheus problem was similar ; a naquadria generator could do the job (probably cause Prommie's design doesn't accomodate a naquadah reactor big enough to power a 'small' hyperdrive) but managing to regulate its output safely was a major tech challenge that proved unfeasible in the field. Finally, they turned to the Goa'uld again for the answer : taking a 'medium' hyperdrive straight off an Al'kesh and onto Prommie. Though more powerful, that hyperdrive was still too small for a ship Prommie's size, so they pushed it to the max for a certain period then let it 'cool down' before starting up again.

and now they've cut straight through the mucking around and simply asked the Asgard to give them a hyperdrive. Much more sensible

_Owen_
May 9th, 2005, 01:55 PM
I apoligize YodaMate, I do not have time to read your entire post, so I will come back later and read the rest, however about "The O'Neill Device." It did not boost the power of the SGC, the two vials of liquid naquadah gave the SGC more power so the gate could make an eight chevron lock. It worked like this, normally two vials of liquid naquadah aren't that powerful, they only power a staff weapon, however the device created a modulated dampening field around the vials of naquadah increasing thier potential power yield, then the energy was simply routed into the SGCs power grid straight from the device. It was not meant to be used in conjunction with a computer program. The way I see it it is a very advanced naquadah reactor.

Hope I could help, and I will get to the rest of your post in a little while.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
May 9th, 2005, 03:10 PM
NOTE: In response to YodaMates' post imediatly preceding my previous one.

That was a good post, have some positive reputation! I agree with you, trying to steal technology from the Goa'uld to try and build thier hyperdrives was stupid, The Goa'uld are pretty much at a standstill with thier technology, and the Goa'uld Hyperspace Window Generator is an incredibly crude design, as hyperdrives go. It was much smarter to just to ask the asgard for one Also why are we putting this in spoiler tags, it isn't THAT big ofa spoiler.

Owen Macri

YodaMate
May 10th, 2005, 01:15 AM
Ah, thanks for clearing up Jack's thing. So the computer program was merely an 8th Chevron dialling program and not designed to help regulate the extra power into the Gate ?

As for the spoiler tags, just playing it safe. I'm not really sure of the rules in Science and Tech and i hate spoiling other people by accident almost as much as i hate been spoiled myself.

And thanks for the reputation ! Not really sure how that works either

_Owen_
May 11th, 2005, 03:08 PM
If you are reffering to the program Jack input into the computer in machine code, it was not even an eight chevron dialing program, it was simply a new formula to calculate the stellar drift, as to find the location of new gates faster, he also input new stargate adresses that had not even been visited be the Goa'uld, or at least put onto Ras' cartouche.

I agree I wouldn't feel very good if I accidentally ruined something for someone.

No problem for the reputation, it was a worthy post, if you are not sure about how the repuation works check the FAQ section, it does not explain it thier feel free to private message me and I will be happy to explain the repuation system in detail. Unless it was something else that you "aren't sure how it works" and I have misunderstood.

Owen Macri

Freyrs
May 11th, 2005, 03:14 PM
it was not even an eight chevron dialing program, it was simply a new formula to calculate the stellar drift, as to find the location of new gates faster,
I would think that the new program that Jack wrote added the ability to dial 8 chevrons. The gate works on a electrical impulses and certainly a new combination would be needed in order to tell the gate to dial outside our galaxy. Plus they also need to download it to a hardrive to dial Ida in Point of View.

_Owen_
May 11th, 2005, 03:32 PM
I believe only a slight modification to the dialing program currently in use would be necesary, simply another slot for another symbol would be needed, it appeared, and then the electrical impluses would be sent to the gate, when the gate realises that it has enough power at its' disposable it makes the eight chevron lock and completes the dialing procedure. All that would be needed is for more, or as you said, another combination of electrical signals to dial another chevron.

My reasoning is that, when there is damage to a DHD or one is nonexistent, the team dials out manualy simply locking in each chevron as they go, even without the information stored in the DHD, from the coorelative update the gate can still make a seven chevron lock, so presumably it is the same with eight chevrons, if the gate knows what to do with seven it should know what to do with eight.

See season one episode "The Torment of Tantalus" and also the episode "Prisoners" of season two.

Owen Macri

YodaMate
May 12th, 2005, 08:29 AM
In Point of View when they replicate the dialling Asgard homeworld feat, they download something to a hard drive and take it with them on the mission to plug into the other SGC. It's probably Jack's patch to dial 8 chevrons.

Why use Jack's, you ask ? Cause that Ancient programming is oh so fine ;)

_Owen_
May 12th, 2005, 12:59 PM
I wasn't diagreeing with you, it would take a modification to the program however this would be an incredibly small modification, perhaps they also wanted to give them the new gate adresses, and new formula for calculating the compensation needed after thousands of years of stellar drift.

Owen Macri

gallywag
May 12th, 2005, 01:36 PM
well in that alternate reality they had never heard of the asgard yet alone chulack maybe the hard drive also carried along the gate addy for the asgard world

_Owen_
May 12th, 2005, 01:50 PM
Yes, that is a reasonable assumption, unless I am not remembering correctly I think the Asgard adress was in the Ancients' Repository and that is how O'Neill knew it. They didn't find it in a previous episode. However this could simply be written on a piece of paper. Perhaps is was an altered dialing program to dial the gate faster so that Carter had a better chance of gatting through the gate before the Goa'uld discovered what was going on.

Owen Macri

Mio
May 12th, 2005, 02:02 PM
Based on what we learn on Atlantis...Very small spoilers

In the Pegasus gate system, a special control crystal is required for make 8 chevrons lock. The extra crystal may not just be a 'safeguard', like, a key...but rather, it could actually contain the program required for the intergalactic lock.... If this is the case, then its possible that Milky Way gates need a similar program to get the lock, and O'Neill simply wrote one that our computers could communicate to with the gate in The Fifth Race.

Crazedwraith
May 12th, 2005, 02:24 PM
I agree with the previous posts, allthough I don't believe that the Prometheus would be able to use Naquadria, I know that they might have said it in the show but in real life, an unstable element like Naquadria, would be unstable in any application, therfore it wouldn't be able to power anything, just blow it up.

"The O'Neill Device," as I have christend it (not to be confused with "The O'Neill Weapon") is not a ZPM, and doesn't even use Zero Point Energy. It uses simple liquid naquadah as a power source, normally this wouldn't be powerful enough to create the energy output that it does, but the liquid naquadah is also surrounded by a modulated dampening field which increases the potential yield of the naquadah, this simply makes it a really advanced naquadah reactor.

Owen Macri
Gah? How does this modulating dampning field create energy out of nowhere?
Increases the potential yei;d on the naquadah??? What?

My look on it is it's the same as the Mark II naquadah generator from Seige PtII it simply enables to draw more power from the nquadah. This power the physics sense. Energy divided by time. Staff weapons only use small amounts of the cell over thousands of yers wheres the O'Neill Device drained it one or two (depending on whether they had to repalce the Liq. naq. cell in PoV) short bursts.

_Owen_
May 12th, 2005, 03:05 PM
The Mark II reactor operates at a state of barley controlled overload which makes it incredibly unstable, with a load of naquadah it had just enough power to activate the chair, then if you recall, it broke, this does not seem an effective power source, deffinetly not when it is working at a state of barley controlled overload.

The O'Neill Device is far more advanced, and does use a modulated dampening field to increase the yield of the naquadah, they didn't go into any farther detail in the show because O'Neill was getting confused, but I can assume that the dampening field effects all of the space inside it including the liquid naquadah, increasing its potential energy, which inturn will increase its released energy, it is not creating energy from no where it is simply amplifying the energy. Actaully the liquid naquadah was not drained and dhould not be drained for a while, if the potential energy of the naquadah was increased 1000 times, it would also take 1000 times longer to fully expend its' power, because the ;iquid naquadah in the containers was only supposed to have so much energy drawn from it, for example, if there is noramly the equivilent to 5000 joules, just an example, than each staff burst might only require 50kw, this would expend the power source quickly but it is simply an example. With the dampening field if the power yield was increased 1000 times, it would have the potential energy of 5000000 joules, and be meant to only release 50000 joules, you could extract more but it would be more efficient to increase or decrease the modulation of the dampening field so that the potential energy yield will be increased so you are not sacrificing any more energy than necesary, the liquid naquadah cells have the potential to be still working for a significant time longer inside the dampening field than outside, in a regualar staff weapon.

Bottom line, you are not creating energy from no where, you are increasing the potential energy of everything inside the dampening field including the liquid naquadah.

Second bottom line, The O'Neill Device is a far more advanced efficient piece of technology than the Mark II, the Mark II is a disgrace to power generation, there was bassically no modifications made other than barley overloading the Naquadah to extract more power, The O'Neill device is a far more advanced Naquadah reactor.

Owen Macri

YodaMate
May 13th, 2005, 08:37 AM
With regards to the hard drive in Point of View , i hadn't thought of it that way. That makes a lot of sense, 'our' SGC would want to give the other SGC details on anything and everything they couldn't figure out for themselves (such as the Nox, the Asgard, Ernest's planet with the Great Race meeting centre, the distance formula, the full address list, their knowledge of the Goa'uld, etc). There's heaps of stuff that the SGC would have missed had it not had Daniel and Teal'c around.

Crazedwraith
May 13th, 2005, 08:54 AM
The Mark II reactor operates at a state of barley controlled overload which makes it incredibly unstable, with a load of naquadah it had just enough power to activate the chair, then if you recall, it broke, this does not seem an effective power source, deffinetly not when it is working at a state of barley controlled overload. Damn, it's a while since I saw seige. Did they actually state it was broken? I thought hit had simply reacted all its naquadah.

And anyway the faults of the MKII are irrevelant, My point wasn't that the O'ND = MKII my point was that it used the same concept. Drawing all the naquadahs stored energy in a couple of huge bursts rather than in many short ones


The O'Neill Device is far more advanced, and does use a modulated dampening field to increase the yield of the naquadah,
Again: 'Increase the yield of Naquadah' Translation: make energy out of nothing. Impossible.


they didn't go into any farther detail in the show because O'Neill was getting confused, but I can assume that the dampening field effects all of the space inside it including the liquid naquadah, increasing its potential energy, which inturn will increase its released energy, it is not creating energy from no where it is simply amplifying the energy. Actaully the liquid naquadah was not drained and dhould not be drained for a while, if the potential energy of the naquadah was increased 1000 times, it would also take 1000 times longer to fully expend its' power, because the ;iquid naquadah in the containers was only supposed to have so much energy drawn from it, for example, if there is noramly the equivilent to 5000 joules, just an example, than each staff burst might only require 50kw, this would expend the power source quickly but it is simply an example. With the dampening field if the power yield was increased 1000 times, it would have the potential energy of 5000000 joules, and be meant to only release 50000 joules, you could extract more but it would be more efficient to increase or decrease the modulation of the dampening field so that the potential energy yield will be increased so you are not sacrificing any more energy than necesary, the liquid naquadah cells have the potential to be still working for a significant time longer inside the dampening field than outside, in a regualar staff weapon.
As far as I can tell, this is just technobabble baed on your increase the energy potential theory. While ignoring the fact it basically creates energy from no where.


Bottom line, you are not creating energy from no where, you are increasing the potential energy of everything inside the dampening field including the liquid naquadah. Again, How? The energy has to come from somewhere. You're saying: Jack device switches on a magic field which enables you draw lots more power out of your ass.

I'm saying: O'Neill's device pulls all the naq. energy in two short uses comapred to the millions of small uses of the staff weapon.

Say the naq. cell contains 1000x joules.
A staff weapons is only capable of using x joule a pop, the O'ND is capalbe of drawin 500x joules.

In comparision you say. A naq cell has 1000x joules. You flip a switch on the O'ND and suddenly the naq contains 2000x joules. So where has the extra 1000x joules come from?



Second bottom line, The O'Neill Device is a far more advanced efficient piece of technology than the Mark II, the Mark II is a disgrace to power generation, there was bassically no modifications made other than barley overloading the Naquadah to extract more power, The O'Neill device is a far more advanced Naquadah reactor.

Owen Macri
A far more advanced reactor that you say creates energy out of nowhere.

_Owen_
May 13th, 2005, 01:10 PM
even using all of the energy of the naquadah cells in one shot would not be enough to power an eight chevron lock. A Mark II with a significant amount more naquadah could not power an eight chevron lock, we know this because if it could they would have dialed atlantis using a mark II and sent the ZPM through. Even with all of the potential energy in the two liquid naquadah cells, I don't believe the gate would have had enough power to stay open for more than a couple minutes with a seven chevron lock let alone an eight chevron lock.

The vision that energy is being created from no where is formed due to limited information and a compromised point of view. You think that the potential yield of the naquadah can not be increased because it SEEMS, and I stress, SEEMS as though energy is being created from no where.

I am not sure how to explain this in anymore detail, if I knew more about the dampening field being used I could give you mathematical equations and scientific explinations as to how exactly the yield is increased, unfortunatly I don't, the dampening field simply increases the potential energy of the naquadah, the field, causes the yield to be increased, I am sorry that I don't know more about it, but I will work on it and see what I come up with.

One example that I can think of is the hyperspace theory, in hyperspace you can travel a greater distance relative to normal space at the same speed that you might travel in normal space, it SEEMS as though you are traveling faster than light, when you are actually traveling significantly slower than light.

This is a terrible analogy, but it is the only one that I can think of.
You take a balloon into space, filled with air, when it leaves the confines of the ship and is introduced to the vacum of space the air expand attempting to fill the void, which is obviously unfilable using only the air of a common balloon. This is a terrible analogy because the reason the balloon expands is because the air is expanding and stretching thinner and thinner, where as the naquadahs' potential yield is being increased.

The reason that you see it as "creating energy out of nothing," is the same reason why if you went back in time and drove in a car it would seem like magic, because the people of the time period did not have the understanding to realise that a car was just a simple device using fuel to inturn create the kinetic energy and the forward momentum of the car. No offence.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 13th, 2005, 02:05 PM
even using all of the energy of the naquadah cells in one shot would not be enough to power an eight chevron lock.
Ya, huh. Prove it. Mackay got an eight chevron lock with normal naq generators. He just couldn't power to very long. I point you to 'Absolute Power' where Sam's astounded by Daniel's use of liquid naq. We have no idea how it compares to other varieties but we've never used it. It could be much more power than the solid stuff we stick in reactors.


A Mark II with a significant amount more naquadah could not power an eight chevron lock, we know this because if it could they would have dialed atlantis using a mark II and sent the ZPM through. Even with all of the potential energy in the two liquid naquadah cells, I don't believe the gate would have had enough power to stay open for more than a couple minutes with a seven chevron lock let alone an eight chevron lock.
Jack's code could have done more than simply enable eight chev locking. We know wormholes can draw power from the Gate it going to. (Watergate, 48 Hours) Maybe the O'ND gave it enough power to 8 lock for long enough for the Asgards DHD to power the wormhole (Home shows us they can)


-snip long explanation of the Increase energy potential-
Owen Macri

Bottom line: After this field come into effect you can draw lots more energy from the naquadah, where does this come from?

Answer that, I'll conceed.

And I'm also employing Occam's Razor. The simplest theory wins. The O'ND simply using more energy in one go is a lot simly than the O'ND lots of energy from it as--dampening field.

I'd like to also know the origin of this Dampening field theory, is it based on something theysaid in Fifth Race or Point of View?

_Owen_
May 13th, 2005, 02:32 PM
In the episode "Letters From Pegasus" Mckay uses what little power remains in the Zero Point Module to dial Earth.

In "Absolute Power" Daniel uses liquid naquadah to power simple weapons devices, the power required for use of energy weapons of the type that Daniel built, pales in comparison to the amount of energy needed to power the Stargate.

No the O'Neill device would have engaged the wormhole and immediatly died, however the device stayed active through the entire time that the gate was open then when the gate was shut down the device simply deactivated, the reason was because it was programed to deactivate after use, the reason it couldn't simply be turned back on was because the modulation of the dampening field was lost and when the device tried to reactivate it didn't work because the device was only programed to work on the one modulation. Also the liquid Naquadah cells, were not expended they were still usable in "Point of View."

I would very much like to explain to you EXACTLY how it works but I can't because they havn't explained it in the show, I am working on how it can work but I am not finished. As far as I can tell the space inside the field can be compared to another dimension, in another dimension the same amount of naquadah could have a higher energy yield, inside the field the energy yield is increased because it is like a seprate confined dimension, where matter has an increase potential energy yield, then when the energy is passed out of the device, the device keeps the amount of energy at that yield so more energy can be extracted. There is no other way that I can currently explain this, without either having them tell us on the show, or continue searching.

This dampening field theory is from "Point of View"



CARTER
My best guess is that the device creates a modulated dampening field around the liquefied naquada cell.

SAMANTHA
Which controls the energy transfer to the capacitors. So maybe the modulation is thrown out of whack each time it's activated.

CARTER
That's exactly what I thought. But how to you even begin to recalibrate a field that you can't generate in the first place…?

O'NEILL
(cutting them off)
Hey, hey, hey! Are you Carters going to be able to figure this out?




CARTER
Colonel!

[The alternate Samantha Carter enters the room, followed by Carter who is holding the Asgard generator.]

SAMANTHA
We did it!

O'NEILL
Already?

SAMANTHA
Yes, all we needed was the ratio of the decay rate of naquada relative to the energy output.

CARTER
Which I learned to calculate when I learned about our new naquada generator. It's just the ratio…

O'NEILL
(cutting them off)
Ah-Ah! It works, right?

[Samantha reaches over and flips a switch. The generator starts to glow.]

CARTER
It works.


As you can see, the Carters are cut off each time they try to explain it.

If you consider things that happen in the show evidence, here is your proof, if not there is nothing that I can explain that I have not already, I will continue my research.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 13th, 2005, 02:55 PM
The quote:


CARTER
My best guess is that the device creates a modulated dampening field around the liquefied naquada cell.

SAMANTHA
Which controls the energy transfer to the capacitors. So maybe the modulation is thrown out of whack each time it's activated. Emphasis aded by me. Would seem to support my theory not more. The field just allows a heck of a lot more energy to be shift at once.

Mio
May 13th, 2005, 05:59 PM
Theoretically, We could get a ton of energy from matter (e=mc^2). However, limitations in technology prevent that from ever happening efficiently. The 'dampening field' obviously can't create energy, that's just silly. It must simply increase the efficiency of the transfer of energy from the normal Naquada reaction....

_Owen_
May 13th, 2005, 07:56 PM
There is only so much energy, you are suggesting using it all at the same time as a large burst, not only is this not the case but it wouldn't work, a liquid naquadah cell does not have enough energy to power an eight chevron lock, and you would not need a dampening field to use all of the energy in one shot.

To tell you the truth, I actually didn't even see the part about the capacitors, this does seem to suggest that there is simply more energy drawn from the naquadah, but you could do this without a damping field, so what was the point of building an intricate device that includes a very complex dampening field, to our knowledge, instead of simple connecting the liquid naquadah cells, and either control the flow of energy manualy or with another device that id controlled by the computer.

As I have said before it is not energy from nothing, inside the dampening field all energy is increased and the dampening field also allows the energy to pass out at that amount, therefore using less of your power source to power something incredibly larger than the device would normally be capable of powering.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 14th, 2005, 08:19 AM
There is only so much energy, you are suggesting using it all at the same time as a large burst, not only is this not the case but it wouldn't work, a liquid naquadah cell does not have enough energy to power an eight chevron lock, and you would not need a dampening field to use all of the energy in one shot.
Prove it. Abd by that I mean: Present calculations you have done to quantifiy the energy needed for a lock. Prove that a liquid naq. cell can't supply this much. Just becuase you claim something doesn't make it true.

I'm using a theory that doesn't break the laws of conservation of energy. Yours does. Thus yours is impossible.

_Owen_
May 14th, 2005, 12:49 PM
My theory, bends the laws, but doesn't break them completly.

My proof is that if a liquid naquadah cell had enough energy why haven't they, or the goa'uld used it to make an eight chevron lock, they had all this trouble throughout the series because they couldn't dial eight chevrons, yet there was always a staff weapons sitting in the armory with two liwuid naquadah cells in it, ready for use.

Don't tell me that they didn't have the technology, because they do, they need a liquid naquadah reactor, only slightly diffrent from a solid naquadah reactor, and a device that could increase or decrease the flow of energy, a dampening field is deffinetly not needed for this.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 14th, 2005, 01:21 PM
My theory, bends the laws, but doesn't break them completly. You have yet to explain. how flicking a magic switch and suddenly being able to draw ten times more energy is not breaking conservation of energy.




My proof is that if a liquid naquadah cell had enough energy why haven't they, or the goa'uld used it to make an eight chevron lock, they had all this trouble throughout the series because they couldn't dial eight chevrons, yet there was always a staff weapons sitting in the armory with two liwuid naquadah cells in it, ready for use.
Simple, to the goa'uld
1) They might not know it is even possible. Standard DHDs aren't eight lock enabled.
2) If they did know about the 8 lock they wouldn't need to use a naq generator of any form. The DHDs can handle and 8 lock. (ref: Home)

to the SGC,
they may have lost the O'ND without that they can't draw enough energy quickly enough.

_Owen_
May 14th, 2005, 01:38 PM
A dhd is eight chevron lock enabled, except you need another power source to give the gate its' extra juice.

The dhds don't have sufficient power for an eight chevron lock, if they did the SGC would have simply gone to another planet and dialed Atlantis, or vice versa, and in the episode "The Fifth Race" O'Neill wouldn't have had to build the device in the first place, he could have gated to a planet with a dhd and used it to gate to the Asgard.

I believe the episode you are refering to is "The Fifth Race," where the Asgard dial Earth so that Jack can go home, in the episode of Atlantis "Home" the reason they could make an eight chevron lock was because the noncorporeal beings within the planets atmosphere directly powered the gate.

Even without The O'Neill Device you could extract energy from liquid naquadah at that speed, they simply need a reactor, they can increase the rate of conversion from energy to matter and more energy would be extcerted in a shorter period of time.

First of all, it was a magic button.

Within the dampening field, conditions are created unlike any in our level of the universe, the dampening field will create conditions within the field similar to those of another dimension, in another dimension the amount of energy in a vial of liquid naquadah could be greater than the amount of energy in a vial of liquid naquadah in our universe, so inside this device, inside the dampening field, within those conditions, the laws of conservation of mass and energy are not true, neither is E=MC^2, matter would be equal to a greater amount of energy than its' mass multiplied by the squared velocity of light.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 14th, 2005, 01:52 PM
Take another look at SG:As Home.

Rodney needs to get a module from the Atlantis control base before the DHD will lock 8 chevrons.

The DHD power point is just conceed as I remembered it was the funky lifeforms that gave the energy for the lock.



Even without The O'Neill Device you could extract energy from liquid naquadah at that speed, they simply need a reactor, they can increase the rate of conversion from energy to matter and more energy would be extcerted in a shorter period of time.


As I keep asking you : Prove it!

Going by what you said about MKII reactors it may not be possibly for use to withdraw that much energy in that short at time with out the naq. exploding. Hence the dampening field which prevents this.

_Owen_
May 14th, 2005, 02:10 PM
Take another look at SG:As Home.

Rodney needs to get a module from the Atlantis control base before the DHD will lock 8 chevrons.

The DHD power point is just conceed as I remembered it was the funky lifeforms that gave the energy for the lock.

That is what I said

I believe the episode you are refering to is "The Fifth Race," where the Asgard dial Earth so that Jack can go home, in the episode of Atlantis "Home" the reason they could make an eight chevron lock was because the noncorporeal beings within the planets atmosphere directly powered the gate.

The DHD itself didn't and doesn't have enough energy to power an eight chevron lock.


As I keep asking you : Prove it!

Going by what you said about MKII reactors it may not be possibly for use to withdraw that much energy in that short at time with out the naq. exploding. Hence the dampening field which prevents this.

What kind of proof do you want, there is no proof, that I can offer because we don't have the technology nor the understanding of the damping field.

If you are asking me to prove why about the liquid naquadah energy extarction thing, what is there to prove it should be kind of obvious, if you plug a stero into the wall, it could draw less power from your power grid than is there (staff weapon), if you plug in something much larger like a stargate, and try to dial eight chevrons, it is definetly not going to work because there is not enough power in the grid, it will draw more and more power untill it is drawing all the power and causes a blackout, it still won't be enough to power the gate. My point is that there is not enough energy in the liquid naquadah cells to power eight chevrons or they would have done that by now, they aren't stupid, if they managed to decipher the gate network I think that they could manage to extract some extra power from a liquid naquadah cell, there is nothing special that is required to do this. The naquadah simply needs to be reacted faster and faster, this basically a mark II, the problem is, that you can only react so fast, then you have an overload, where the naquadah will cause a huge chain reaction in the rest of the naquadah and explode because there is to much naquadah reacting and trying to react at the same time.

Not only don't you need a dampening field to control the amount of released energy, but I believe that it would be impossible to react the naquadah at a rate high enough to power an eight chevron lock and not cause an overload. If it was possible they would have done it, they could have taken down some goa'uld stolen a million staff weapons and used the million staff weapons combined with the normal power the gate gets combined with all of there regular reactors and I still don't think it would be enough, because you aren't comprehending the necesary power required for an eight chevron lock. If it was possible to make an eight chevron lock with technology that they had lying around they would have done it. You are going in circles and forcing me to re explain my every point.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 15th, 2005, 02:51 AM
That is what I said


The DHD itself didn't and doesn't have enough energy to power an eight chevron lock.
Yes and I conceed the point. You however also claimed a standard DHD could dial 8 chevrons. This in contradicted by 'Home' where McKay removes a module from atlantis abd hooks it to DHD.




What kind of proof do you want, there is no proof, that I can offer because we don't have the technology nor the understanding of the damping field. Actually I was asking you to prove that a liquid naq. cell couldn't power an 8 lock by:

a) quantifing the energy required for an 8 chevron Lock.
b) Quanitfy the energy contained in a typical liquid Naq. cell.

and hence show a>b.


My point is that there is not enough energy in the liquid naquadah cells to power eight chevrons or they would have done that by now, they aren't stupid, if they managed to decipher the gate network I think that they could manage to extract some extra power from a liquid naquadah cell, there is nothing special that is required to do this. The naquadah simply needs to be reacted faster and faster, this basically a mark II, the problem is, that you can only react so fast, then you have an overload, where the naquadah will cause a huge chain reaction in the rest of the naquadah and explode because there is to much naquadah reacting and trying to react at the same time. Yes, and hence dampening field allows it react and not explode.


Not only don't you need a dampening field to control the amount of released energy,
You seem so quick to tell me know bog all about this field. WHy are you so quick to tell me something it cannot do?



but I believe that it would be impossible to react the naquadah at a rate high enough to power an eight chevron lock and not cause an overload. If it was possible they would have done it, they could have taken down some goa'uld stolen a million staff weapons and used the million staff weapons combined with the normal power the gate gets combined with all of there regular reactors and I still don't think it would be enough, because you aren't comprehending the necesary power required for an eight chevron lock. If it was possible to make an eight chevron lock with technology that they had lying around they would have done it. You are going in circles and forcing me to re explain my every point.

Thats becuase you points are flawed and have been flawed ever since you decided a 'dampening field' create energy out of nowhere.

Bottom line: My theory doesn't violate Conservation of energy. Yours does. Generally I'd rather accept a theory that doesn't include a major reoganisation in the way the universe operates Don't you?

YodaMate
May 15th, 2005, 03:20 AM
Yes and I conceed the point. You however also claimed a standard DHD could dial 8 chevrons. This in contradicted by 'Home' where McKay removes a module from atlantis abd hooks it to DHD.



The Pegasus Stargates are different from the Milky Way's, so drawing conclusions for one based on the other can be problematic. For example, the Atlantis Gate was locked out from the entire (universe-wide) Gate network and programmed only to respond to a wormhole from Earth.

When the Pegasus network was set up, the Milky Way (and presumably other Ancient-colonised galaxies) was the scene of a plague, so it's quite possible that it was quarantined from the Pegasus network and its DHDs can't dial there. It's also possible that a similar 'quarantine' may have been set up when the Wraith started to win the war, so that no Pegaus Gates can dial extra-galactic without the special control crystal Atlantis possesses.

With regards to the debate, unless you can explain exactly how somone can be converted into energy, transported a certain distance then reconverted back into themselves, making grand statements about Ancient technology is unwise. In-universe, the episode Enigma revealed that Earth doesn't know much about the basics of highly advanced science, so Ancient technology can and likely does operate on rules that are beyond our primitive understanding.

Until such rules are explained, one theory or argument is not vastly superior to another if based solely or mainly on Earth notions of science.

_Owen_
May 15th, 2005, 04:44 AM
I'm sorry, I was confused.

I will try, somehow to work out these calculations. Untill then I have proof from the show, if a liquid naquadah cartridge contatined that much energy they would have used one to dial atlantis in season eight, yet they didn't.

Now how do you propose that the dampening field would allow the naquadah a higher reaction rate?
If the dampening field allowed a higher reaction rate the conversation in "Point of View" would have been diffrent.



CARTER
My best guess is that the device creates a modulated dampening field around the liquefied naquada cell.

SAMANTHA
Which allows the naquadah a higher rate of reaction, in order to provide large amounts of energy where only smaller ones would be available. So maybe the modulation is thrown out of whack each time it's activated.

CARTER
That's exactly what I thought. But how to you even begin to recalibrate a field that you can't generate in the first place…?

However you wouldn't need the dampening field in that case to control the energy flow to the capacitors, because the energy could flow through any common wire.

I didn't say that it can't controll the energy flow to the capacitors, I said that you don't need it to control the energy flow to the capacitors. The speed at which the energy travels from source to destination does not matter, the same amount of energy will get there.

With your idea, the dampening field extracts more energy than is normally there, now who is making energy from nothing? There is only a limited amount of energy that can come from a naquadah reaction, in a predetermined period of time. The rate of decay simply prevents the naquadah from being converted into energy faster, it would cause an overload.

I would like to hear your proposition for exactly how the dampening field will raise the rate of conversion. There is also still my original question, if that naquadah is powerful enough to make at least two eight chevron locks possibly more, why have they not simply used the liquid naquadah to dial atlantis?

If there is enough energy in a liquid naquadah cell to make an eight chevron lock, and not have any visible diffrence in the level of liquid naquadah in the cells, it is more than probable that the cell conatains enough energy to be reacted at its normal rate.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 15th, 2005, 06:23 AM
.I will try, somehow to work out these calculations. Untill then I have proof from the show, if a liquid naquadah cartridge contatined that much energy they would have used one to dial atlantis in season eight, yet they didn't.
The reason they didn't is quite simply. Only the O'ND allowed them to withdraw the nergy safely and th O'DN could either be:

a)Left in the AU
b) Permantly Broken.
c) it fell in that whooping great plot hole behind the furlings and next to the Ascended death cop out o matic.



Now how do you propose that the dampening field would allow the naquadah a higher reaction rate?

I don't know but I'll just use your excuse: ancient tech is so far beoyond we can't even comprehend it so how can I explain myself.

How do you propose a dampening field can violate CoE?




If the dampening field allowed a higher reaction rate the conversation in "Point of View" would have been diffrent.

And if your theory was correct it would have been different to:



My best guess is that the device creates a modulated dampening field around the liquefied naquada cell.

SAMANTHA
Which increases the energy potential in the naquadah allowing much higher amounts of energy to be withdrawn from the cell. Holy hannah! This means our theories on conservation of energy have been totally disproved! and incidently the field must be thrown all out of whack each time the device is activated.

CARTER
That's exactly what I thought. But how to you even begin to recalibrate a field that you can't generate in the first place…?






I would like to hear your proposition for exactly how the dampening field will raise the rate of conversion. There is also still my original question, if that naquadah is powerful enough to make at least two eight chevron locks possibly more, why have they not simply used the liquid naquadah to dial atlantis?

Again similar to your excuse I will just babble on for a while about how much more advacned the ancients were, this means i couldn't possibly tell you how it works.



If there is enough energy in a liquid naquadah cell to make an eight chevron lock, and not have any visible diffrence in the level of liquid naquadah in the cells, it is more than probable that the cell conatains enough energy to be reacted at its normal rate.

Owen Macri

Aside from that pesky CoE violation, yes.

_Owen_
May 15th, 2005, 12:32 PM
I didn't use that excuse, I know what the dampening field would do, it would create a sort of contained area in which the conditions are equal to those in another dimension in which naquadah has a higher energy equivilent. Therefore not breaking any laws of conservation of mass and energy. You just say that it will raise the rate of reaction, you don't give an example of how the dampening field could do this, I do, and it doesn't break any laws of physics"

Your theory is that the dampening field raises the rate of reaction therefore allowing more energy to be passed into whichever device you are powering, allowing for a large amount of energy to be utilised in a shorter time, sacrificing the naquadah as well without causing an overload. This is the third time that you have changed your theory, first it was, "how could my idea work," then is was "it allows more energy to pass through to power the stargate, now it is "the dampening field raises the rate of reaction, not causing an overload.

If it is the third option it is impossible, each element has a specific rate of decay, it cannot be changed without changing the element, for The O'Neill Device to do what you are suggesting it would have to change the element into another because the naquadahs' rate of decay can not be changed, who is breaking the laws of physics now.

As I have previously said, the dampening field doesn't violate the laws in question, and I have am not using the excuse that there technology is so advanced, I have told you how it is possible that the energy equivilent of the naquadah can be raised, but you can not tell me how you would change the rate of decay.

Once again, I have not "babbled" on about how the ancients were more advanced.

Also as I have previously said my theory does not violate the laws of conservation of mass and energy.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 15th, 2005, 12:52 PM
I didn't use that excuse, I know what the dampening field would do, it would create a sort of contained area in which the conditions are equal to those in another dimension in which naquadah has a higher energy equivilent. SO basically you might as well say a magic fairy waves its wand and whumpf theres all the energy you need.


Therefore not breaking any laws of conservation of mass and energy. You just say that it will raise the rate of reaction, you don't give an example of how the dampening field could do this, I do, and it doesn't break any laws of physics"
No, you close your eyes say lalalalala, it can warp reality to create energy lalalalalala.

By your latest explanation, this energy comes from another dimension, yes? So when its done there will be more energy/matter in this universe then there was at the start. Which is a massive violation of CoE.



Your theory is that the dampening field raises the rate of reaction therefore allowing more energy to be passed into whichever device you are powering, allowing for a large amount of energy to be utilised in a shorter time, sacrificing the naquadah as well without causing an overload. This is the third time that you have changed your theory, first it was, "how could my idea work," then is was "it allows more energy to pass through to power the stargate, now it is "the dampening field raises the rate of reaction, not causing an overload.

No, my theory has remained constant: The O'ND simply allows greaty amonuts of power to be drawn from the naquadah. Though I will admit I may have altered some minor technical recountings of this when you brought the dampening field quote in to it.

And I haven't changed my story. I have both explained why your idea is impossible and put forth my own.

_Owen_
May 15th, 2005, 01:04 PM
I have yet to hear your suggestion for how the dampening field raises the conversion rate, all you have said is that the ancients were so far advanced. I have an explination for mine, this brings me to my next point. You obviously don't understand my point, I base this assumption on all the "las," the dampening field creates a self conatained region of another dimesion in which the Naquadah has a higher energy conversion, allowing far more energy to be output while far less of the power source is being used.

I am not saying at all that a magic fairy waves its' wand.

I see your point that there would be more energy/matter in the universe, so I went back and checked my post and noticed that I missed something. The device needs to draw power from somewhere to power the dampening field, as well as passing energy from one dimension to another to power something the dampening field, it also draws energy from our universe and reverses the proces transfering energy from our dimension into the other one, just to even things out. I apoligize, I forgot to add that in my post, I thought that I did.


SO basically ur saying a magic firy waves its wand and whumpf theres all the energy you need.

No, you close your eyes say lalalalala, it can warp reality to create energy lalalalalala.

I would apreciate it if you didn't post with meaningless sentences, like the one that I quoted, it is not usefull to the discussion, simply a way of being sarcastic that is the opposite of productive to the discussion. I did not say any of that it is simply the way you are interpreting my posts.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 15th, 2005, 01:48 PM
I have yet to hear your suggestion for how the dampening field raises the conversion rate, all you have said is that the ancients were so far advanced. I have an explination for mine, this brings me to my next point. You obviously don't understand my point, I base this assumption on all the "las," the dampening field creates a self conatained region of another dimesion in which the Naquadah has a higher energy conversion, allowing far more energy to be output while far less of the power source is being used. I seem to understand your point better than you do. You want to violate CoE. Good luck on that.


I see your point that there would be more energy/matter in the universe, so I went back and checked my post and noticed that I missed something. The device needs to draw power from somewhere to power the dampening field, as well as passing energy from one dimension to another to power something the dampening field, it also draws energy from our universe and reverses the proces transfering energy from our dimension into the other one, just to even things out. I apoligize, I forgot to add that in my post, I thought that I did.
Wait now your saying your pulling X amount of energy from another universe but have to put X back in. Thus defeating the entire point of the device. If you have the energy to shove back to the other universe to even things out. You'd just it to power the gate



I would apreciate it if you didn't post with meaningless sentences, like the one that I quoted, it is not usefull to the discussion, simply a way of being sarcastic that is the opposite of productive to the discussion. I did not say any of that it is simply the way you are interpreting my posts.

Owen Macri
I'm sorry you feel that way. I'll try to leave the levity behind.

_Owen_
May 15th, 2005, 02:43 PM
I don't believe that is the case, my idea will not violate the conservation of energy.

It may seem like it is pointless but it actually isn't. All around us is energy, weather it be potential or another form, this energy is usable but difficult to harness, the liquid naquadah cell is an easily harnessable power source. You are exchanging energy that is doing absolutly zip, for energy that will be used for something constructive, like powering an eight chevron lock.

I don't mind a little joke, or even a big one, but when we are trying to have a serious conversation and you say


SO basically you might as well say a magic fairy waves its wand and whumpf theres all the energy you need.

it seems more sarcastic than productive, or meaningful.

Owen Macri

YodaMate
May 16th, 2005, 01:48 AM
For all we know, the Ancients may use the Force to help power their technology... any argument based solely on Earth science knowledge is not ironclad when dealing with a fictional universe in which wormholes through other dimensions can be established

Once an Asgard tells Carter that conservation of energy law is absolute, then you can say so fairly safely with regards to Ancient technology. It would be better if you had an Ascended Ancient tell you that.

And no one commented on the Pegasus 'quarantine' idea. How sad for old Peggy, it's always been ignored by these upper-class galaxy snobs :p

Crazedwraith
May 16th, 2005, 08:21 AM
I don't believe that is the case, my idea will not violate the conservation of energy.

It may seem like it is pointless but it actually isn't. All around us is energy, weather it be potential or another form, this energy is usable but difficult to harness, the liquid naquadah cell is an easily harnessable power source. You are exchanging energy that is doing absolutly zip, for energy that will be used for something constructive, like powering an eight chevron lock.

Owen Macri

1) That weather should be whether, sorri I'm picky like that.
2) How excalty does all this hard to gather energy get into the device?
3) Why doesn't it just use this heard to gather energy to power the gate?

_Owen_
May 16th, 2005, 01:18 PM
I don't mind you correcting me, that word has always confused me, the second spelling of it never looks right to me, so I allways put the first. I apoligize.

The reason they can't use the "hard to gather energy" is simply because we don't have a way of effectivly channeling it into a device or in great enough amount for it to be useful.

Well first we should start off with what types of energy this is. Proof that it is there is that you are alive. All around use is heat energy, this is just one of the forms. We don't have an effective way of channeling this heat energy in any usefull amounts. However in theory it seems as though a properly designed energy field could draw the energy. Imagine it like this, you have a balloon, pumped with air, along the surface of the balloon are a 2 billion tiny valves that allow air flow one way, 1billion allow air to flow into the balloon, the other billion allow air to flow out. The valves also have devices that suck in air and pump it out. If you pump in to much air and don't pump out enough the balloons size will increase and it will pop, if you pump out to much and suck in not enough the balloon will shrink, however if you pump in the same amount of air that you are pumping out the balloon will always stay the same size.

Imagine the ballon as your dampening field, imagine the air in the balloon as the liquid naquadah, and imagine the air outside as the unusable heat energy, the balloon, or The O'Neill Device, will pump out energy well taking in the same amount, leaving the amount of energy in both dimensions equal.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 16th, 2005, 01:32 PM
and yet you must have an effective way to channel it if you can shove it into another dimension. So why not shove it into the gate instead?

And from your ballon analogy i still don't undertand how this help you to get more 'useful' energy to the gate than simply reacting the naquadah would give you.

_Owen_
May 16th, 2005, 01:44 PM
I agree with you, a device could be built to simply channel heat energy into the stargate, it would be far less complicated, using the naquadah instead is simply an addition to the device, the ancients did everything big.

About your last point I am not sure that I understand, so I will clarify, if you still don't understand please ask.

Inside the dampening field is a self contained region of another dimension, in this dimension, naquadah has a greater energy equivilent than in our dimension, so energy is drawn from there so more energy can be used for a longer time. Except as you said it would be a violation of the conservation of mass and energy, because there would be more energy in the universe than there is supposed to be, this is countered by drawn common energy that is always there but is hard to harness (with our current technology) into the other dimension to equilize the amounts of energy in both dimensions.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 16th, 2005, 01:59 PM
OK, I think I understand what your trying to say. The Ancients and Jack built a hopelessly over complicated system to dial eight chevrons.

Mainly it takes heat energy and shove it into another dimesion and pull naquadah energy out. One question: Why isn't the power vault freezing in '5th Race' ? There should have been ice and stuff.


I'm going to call a concept called Occum's Razor here which states:

no more things should be presumed to exist tha are absoultouly nessecary.

Which basically means the simpler the theory that still adress all the ponits the better the theory.

Your theory nneds things like 'pocket dimensions' and 'raise the energy potential of naquadah'

This is why I'd rather beleive my theory than yours.

_Owen_
May 16th, 2005, 02:10 PM
Yep, that's bassically it, the device was far more complicated than it needed to be.

The thing that I can think of is that the device exctracs energy in small amounts over a large space then heat energy from other rooms, even from outside the base and from the Earth itself will enter the room to make up for the lost energy, allthough it would get colder. It is possible that the device absorbs the energy directly from the earth itself therefore the temperature would not decrease. Or an even more complicated idea, the device derives the energy that is put back into the other dimension from the potential energy itself of the objects in the room, this would be even more complicated, we currently have no knowledge of how to extract potential energy without converting it into a useful form like kinetic or heat.

Sometimes a more complicated device is nesesary, with yours simply increasing the rate of reaction would be impossible because it would have to turn into another element. However the rate of reaction could be diffrent in another dimension, which takes you back to my original theory of a self-contained dimension.

Owen Macri

Crazedwraith
May 17th, 2005, 08:08 AM
Like I said: Occum's Razor. Simplest is best.

And since when did: "do things large" translate to "needlessly complicated"?

_Owen_
May 17th, 2005, 03:26 PM
Well sometimes, needlessly complicated is not so needless. There could be reasons that Jack designed the device that way instead of a simpler way.

Owen Macri

Macharius0
May 19th, 2005, 03:57 PM
Okay, these posts aren't making that much sense to me, I never did well at physics. Here's what I think.

O'Neill built a power generator around the energy module from a staff weapon. It had a power output of more than a MK I Naquadah reactor but less than a ZPM. It only worked once and only needed to generate enough power to send ONE person through the Stargate to another galaxy. Alternate Carter was the only one who went to find Thor in "Point of View", and O'Neill went to Othala on his own.

The plans for that device could have been a failsafe built into the ancient hall of knowledge. That way if someone like O'Neill made the mistake of downloading it into their brains, they could built a generator like that from common components. Since it only was designed to work once before burning out, it would prevent other people from using the design to reverse engineer the technology and rapidly advance their society (a situation the Tollan wanted to avoid).

Chances are the device shouldn't have worked again, but having two Carters... (drools...eyes glaze over...snaps out of it.) ...Ahem, excuse me, working on it was more than enough brain power to find a way around that little safeguard.

6thMonolith
May 19th, 2005, 05:06 PM
That makes sense to me. the reson that it wouldn't work twice had something to do with how the dampening field had to be remodulated. Something like that. It was only ment to be used once, and after it was shut off, it basicly broke. But then was fixed. And probably broke again.

_Owen_
May 19th, 2005, 09:17 PM
The only reason that it didn't work again, immediatly after the first use is because everytime the device is activated, power is drawn from it and it is shut off, the dampening fields modulation is shifted not allowing for the device to be used without remodulation of the dampening field.

The way the device worked it had the power to create and sustain an incredible number of intergalactic wormholes, the liquid naquadah should last for a very long time, but when it does eventually run out you can simply replace the cartridges.

There was no failsafe built into the repository, the knowledge is downloaded only if the users' brain chemistry is compatible with the device. The knowledge was downloaded, then O'Neill, knowing that he would die with the knowledge in his brain, built The O'Neill Device to go to the Asgard, because he knew that they had the technology to remove the vast amounts of data.

Owen Macri

Heaven
May 20th, 2005, 08:47 AM
sam says the device uses the energy module of the staff weapon and the dampening field around the liquid naquadah is used to control the energy output to the capacitors so that the device doesnt blow up.
in order to make the device work again they had to recalibrate this field which as said controls the energy output.
later on when they were finished they said all they needed was the ratio of the decay rate of naquadah to the energy output.
this much we know as fact. how the device actually works we can only speculate.
im not sure but when sam pulls the liquid naquadah container from the device it seems empty (probably why the device worked only once) so its possible they had to replace it with regular naquadah and thats why they needed to recalibrate the dampening field.
we know that opening a gate to another galaxy requires huge amount of energy which such small amount of liquid naquadah is improbable to generate.
now heres my theory
provided what we know about matter and energy matter is essentialy energy (e=mc^2) confined into a small space. and so regardless of what dimension you're in, to say that you can extract more energy from naquadah is a violation of conservation of energy so we can pretty much rule it out.

there are several ways to extract energy from matter like chemical/nuclear reactions, either way some of the exerted energy is channeled for power and the rest is converted into other forms of energy like gas radiation etc.
otherwise we would be able to power the entire world with potatoes and tomatoe reactors.
the only interaction of matter we know of that completly converts the matter into energy is matter-antimatter interaction.
i think what Owen was trying to say is that in some other dimension it is possible to convert the naquadah into usable energy more efficiently which does not violate conservation of energy. but i dont think thats the case since this is still a pretty small amount of liquid naquadah.

my guess is that the device uses the liquid naquadah to generate a subspace link and draws the huge amount of energy from subspace much like the zpm only in this case we have to actually generate a link into subspace in order to access subspace energy whereas a zpm already has a subspace region contained inside.

Macharius0
May 20th, 2005, 12:26 PM
The only reason that it didn't work again, immediatly after the first use is because everytime the device is activated, power is drawn from it and it is shut off, the dampening fields modulation is shifted not allowing for the device to be used without remodulation of the dampening field.

The way the device worked it had the power to create and sustain an incredible number of intergalactic wormholes, the liquid naquadah should last for a very long time, but when it does eventually run out you can simply replace the cartridges.

There was no failsafe built into the repository, the knowledge is downloaded only if the users' brain chemistry is compatible with the device. The knowledge was downloaded, then O'Neill, knowing that he would die with the knowledge in his brain, built The O'Neill Device to go to the Asgard, because he knew that they had the technology to remove the vast amounts of data.

Owen Macri

If that's the case then how come we haven't been using the device to check up on Atlantis, send them supplies, contact the Asgard, etc? If all you have to do is fix the thing and maybe replace the energy module, shouldn't we be using it?

_Owen_
May 20th, 2005, 01:03 PM
sam says the device uses the energy module of the staff weapon and the dampening field around the liquid naquadah is used to control the energy output to the capacitors so that the device doesnt blow up.
in order to make the device work again they had to recalibrate this field which as said controls the energy output.
later on when they were finished they said all they needed was the ratio of the decay rate of naquadah to the energy output.
this much we know as fact. how the device actually works we can only speculate.
im not sure but when sam pulls the liquid naquadah container from the device it seems empty (probably why the device worked only once) so its possible they had to replace it with regular naquadah and thats why they needed to recalibrate the dampening field.
we know that opening a gate to another galaxy requires huge amount of energy which such small amount of liquid naquadah is improbable to generate.
now heres my theory
provided what we know about matter and energy matter is essentialy energy (e=mc^2) confined into a small space. and so regardless of what dimension you're in, to say that you can extract more energy from naquadah is a violation of conservation of energy so we can pretty much rule it out.

there are several ways to extract energy from matter like chemical/nuclear reactions, either way some of the exerted energy is channeled for power and the rest is converted into other forms of energy like gas radiation etc.
otherwise we would be able to power the entire world with potatoes and tomatoe reactors.
the only interaction of matter we know of that completly converts the matter into energy is matter-antimatter interaction.
i think what Owen was trying to say is that in some other dimension it is possible to convert the naquadah into usable energy more efficiently which does not violate conservation of energy. but i dont think thats the case since this is still a pretty small amount of liquid naquadah.

my guess is that the device uses the liquid naquadah to generate a subspace link and draws the huge amount of energy from subspace much like the zpm only in this case we have to actually generate a link into subspace in order to access subspace energy whereas a zpm already has a subspace region contained inside.
I have just discussed this with Crazedwraith, it is not a violation of the Consevation of Energy. Please read the last couple of pages.

Owen Macri

_Owen_
May 20th, 2005, 01:05 PM
You are exactly right, we should be using the device right now, except when they came back from the alternate reality they apparently left it there for unknown reasons and did not ever elaborate on this. It was pretty stupid seeing as the device would have worked, possibly hundreds of millions of times more, barring any accidents, such as someone dropping it.

Owen Macri

Mio
May 22nd, 2005, 05:27 AM
You are exactly right, we should be using the device right now, except when they came back from the alternate reality they apparently left it there for unknown reasons and did not ever elaborate on this. It was pretty stupid seeing as the device would have worked, possibly hundreds of millions of times more, barring any accidents, such as someone dropping it.

Owen Macri

Maybe it burned out? It was only ever meant to be used once.

_Owen_
May 23rd, 2005, 05:57 PM
It is entirely possible, if it was meant for long term use, O'Neill probably would have made it look even cooler!

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
May 26th, 2005, 06:41 PM
I have just discussed this with Crazedwraith, it is not a violation of the Consevation of Energy. Please read the last couple of pages.

Owen Macri

I gotta say Owen, that your explanation seems to be the least likely, to me at least.

Why would you make a device that gathers up ambient energy and shoves it into another dimension to increase the potential energy yield of a substance within the dampening field?
That makes no sense to me. Use the ambient energy.

It just doesn't make sense, man.

_Owen_
May 26th, 2005, 06:58 PM
You know what, I agree with you, it has a whole function that isn't needed, by our limited perspective, there are reasons that the Ancients could have had for using this technology that we can't understand.

It is the most complicated explination, I like complicated, and it would theoretically work.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
May 26th, 2005, 07:31 PM
You know what, I agree with you, it has a whole function that isn't needed, by our limited perspective, there are reasons that the Ancients could have had for using this technology that we can't understand.

It is the most complicated explination, I like complicated, and it would theoretically work.

Owen Macri

Theoretically, yes. But it's needlessly complicated.
ANd rather pointless.

I'd like to hear some of these reasons the ancients would make it needlessly complex.
You can talk about our limited perspective all you like, but at the end of the day, your explanation just doesn't make sense.

_Owen_
May 26th, 2005, 08:20 PM
Actually my explination makes perfect sense, you either refuse to except it or don't understand it, take your pick.

Owen Macri

YodaMate
May 29th, 2005, 07:45 AM
It really does seem out of character for SG-1 to simply leave a highly advanced (Ancient designed, no less) device in a place where they can't get to it.

Two possibilities spring to mind : perhaps Jack thought they would be maintaining relations with the other SGC (helping them rebuild, swapping notes, etc) and simply didn't anticipate that Hammond would order the destruction of the quantum mirror.

That also leaves open the question, why on earth did Hammond take such unilateral action and destroy the mirror ? I'm sure Carter could have come up with a way to block unwanted travellers.

Has it been established roughly how far off the Pegasus galaxy is ? Asgard hyperdrives usually make for speedy travel. Yet even with a ZPM powering up our one, it still takes a couple of days. It's possible that the Ancients wanted to put as much distance between themselves and the contaminated Milky Way as possible.

If Pegasus is on the other side of the universe, relative to the Milky Way and Ida galaxies, then perhaps they still do have Jack's device, they merely determined (offscreen) that it wasn't capable of reaching that far and turned to the ZPM for a solution.

_Owen_
May 29th, 2005, 08:30 AM
It was not very smart, however it could have been broken by accident.

Pegasus isn't on the other side of the universe, in the atlantis premier, Daniel stated "It's a dwarf galaxy in a local group."

Owen Macri

YodaMate
May 30th, 2005, 08:45 AM
Hmm. Well, i'm sure Hammond is kicking himself right now. Do you know how far off Ida is ? If it's closer than Pegasus, then the power capability of the Jack device might still have been inefficient.

_Owen_
May 30th, 2005, 01:28 PM
In theory, the way the device was created it could have produced enough energy to go to the other side of the univese.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
May 30th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Actually my explination makes perfect sense, you either refuse to except it or don't understand it, take your pick.

Owen Macri
Please don't condescend to me. I read your theory. It would work, but it's, as I said, needlessly complicated and completely pointless.
It doesn't make a lick of sense to build a device that way, unless there was anther reason for it. A reason both Crazedwraith and myself have asked you to provide and you responded by implying that we couldn't understand you.

If you have some, I'd love to hear them.

_Owen_
May 30th, 2005, 04:17 PM
I am sorry, I wasn't trying to be condescending. It is not completley pointless, the point of it is to provide more power where normaly it is not available.

It doesn't make sense to us, it might have made sense to Jack, and the Ancients.

There could be a billion reasons that he built the device that way, but I don't know what they are, I am not pyscic. One of the reasons is saftey, the device could have been built overly complicated in the hopes that we would never understand it, and possibly use it as a weapon to blow ourselves up, Jack had all of the Ancients' knowledge in his brain, this is the order he would think in:

1) Way to get to Othalla
2) Don't blow up Earth
3) Help with information and technology that could be used for defense of Earth or defeat of the Goa'uld.

He succeded in number one and two, and he got started on number three, he helped Sam get off of the planet, and he gave them the new formula to claculate gate adresses faster, then he also gave them a seprate library of gate adresses the Goa'uld hadn't marked on the Cartouche. But notice that with all of the Ancients wisdom it is more likley that he would be thinking of protecting Earth, by not allowing them to blow themselves up before he wanted to give them useable technology. This is a very logical assumption. If fact it would be more likley the list would go like this:

1) find a way to Othalla and don't blow up Earth in the procces.
2) Help Earth with technology that can defend Earth and possibly defeat the Goa'uld but don't give them technology or information that they could use to blow themselves up.

Owen Macri

Lightsabre
May 30th, 2005, 08:49 PM
I am sorry, I wasn't trying to be condescending. It is not completley pointless, the point of it is to provide more power where normaly it is not available.

It doesn't make sense to us, it might have made sense to Jack, and the Ancients.

There could be a billion reasons that he built the device that way, but I don't know what they are, I am not pyscic. One of the reasons is saftey, the device could have been built overly complicated in the hopes that we would never understand it, and possibly use it as a weapon to blow ourselves up, Jack had all of the Ancients' knowledge in his brain, this is the order he would think in:

1) Way to get to Othalla
2) Don't blow up Earth
3) Help with information and technology that could be used for defense of Earth or defeat of the Goa'uld.

He succeded in number one and two, and he got started on number three, he helped Sam get off of the planet, and he gave them the new formula to claculate gate adresses faster, then he also gave them a seprate library of gate adresses the Goa'uld hadn't marked on the Cartouche. But notice that with all of the Ancients wisdom it is more likley that he would be thinking of protecting Earth, by not allowing them to blow themselves up before he wanted to give them useable technology. This is a very logical assumption. If fact it would be more likley the list would go like this:

1) find a way to Othalla and don't blow up Earth in the procces.
2) Help Earth with technology that can defend Earth and possibly defeat the Goa'uld but don't give them technology or information that they could use to blow themselves up.

Owen Macri

Well, that's a good reason.
However!
Jack's subconcious is doing all the work. Remember, he doesn't conciously know what he's doing when he write the math, the machine code or builds hte device. I think it's pure survival instinct. Jack's mind knows it's shutting down, it does what's needed to save him. But I doubt he had a logical thought process and given that the SGC's main standing orders are to get advanced tech, I think that he would have tried to build something that could be used again.

As to how it works, it just still doesn't fit. All the shoving energy from one dimension to another, but the potential for blowing the planet up is worse, since you then have a device that's sucking in energy as well as putting it out. what happens if it suddenly CAN'T shove taht energy through?
Big explosion, that's what.

As to the reason's jack built an overcomplex device, you advanced the theory and defended ti with the premise there were reasons to do it that way. IF you can't give a sound one, then it's fairly obvious there aren't any and so it wasn't built the way you suggest.

_Owen_
May 31st, 2005, 02:07 PM
It was Jacks' subconcious but the ancient data was being writen in, so it was largley effecting his thought procces, simply because he was still himself, only knowledge was being downloaded not another personality. It seems as though the ancient put all of thier knowledge into the repositories, they would have also included logic into it, thier knowldege of logic, etc.

As for your second point it would be worse than an explosion, if energy either stopped being tranfered in or out, one universe would have to much energy and one would have to little, this would be a violation of the conservation of mass and energy, we have no idea what would happen.

As for a reason, there probably was one, but I don't know it, you don't know it, Jack doesn't know it. There are reasons for things that we don't know or can't understand, like why did the ancients put thirty-eight symbols on the stargte, why not six?

Just because somthing doesn't make sense to you and me, doesn't mean that it didn't make sense to the person who came up with it and built it.

Owen Macri