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ravinia
April 22nd, 2005, 07:23 PM
one of the things that makes the character of Jack so compelling is that there are so many layers to him... especially that something dark streak that comes out every once in a while.

I was watching "Red Sky" again and was just riveted to the screen during the scene where (highlight to read poss. spoiler)
Jack storms in, completely loses it and threatens to kill the villager who sabotaged the rocket.

What amazing acting! What an amazing character! What glimpses of Jack's dark side have you found (broadcast episodes I mean, I know there's plenty of it fan fic land) and why do you think it fascinates us so?

Ravinia

OrangeShipper
April 27th, 2005, 07:20 AM
I cant really think of any other times, when hes been serious..

But its quite a nice thort :p in an odd sort of way!!

LadyJeep
April 27th, 2005, 07:34 AM
In "The Other Side" when the team finally realized who the other side was and how the war started and Jack wanted nothing to do with the guy in charge, he guided the enemy missiles to the base and when the team left, he told the guy not to follow. When they stepped through the gate, he let them shut the iris and you hear the thunk of the guy hitting. The whole time they're standing on the ramp, Jack holds Sam's eyes and never flinches, while she is visibly upset with him. I thought this showed some of the dark side in Jack very well.

sueKay
April 27th, 2005, 08:38 AM
Jack is a very dark character...and that's one thing that draws me too his character :eek:

The Other Side's a good example as LadyJeep's explained

But, there's also Abyss

Jack: Ba'al would be dead and it wouldn't stop with-
Daniel: You're a better man than that
Jack: That's where you're wrong!

Lida
April 27th, 2005, 08:45 AM
I don't know how anyone else feels, but In A Matter of Time, when Col. Cromwell asks Jack for forgiveness about the Iraq incident, I was very disappointed that Jack wouldn't forgive him. Jack responds with "what happened to no man left behind?".....and Cromwell points to the screen showing the fate of the crew doomed by the black hole, and Jack says "that's different". Yes, it's a different scenario, however, Jack wasn't left behind on purpose and I found it very disturbing he couldn't find it in his heart to forgive a man who was just following orders.

That's just my take on it. :(

MartoufMarty
April 27th, 2005, 08:49 AM
Oooh I love the scene in Abyss and the scenes from Red Sky. Great episodes...

wraith816
April 27th, 2005, 09:41 AM
There's also Jack's special ops background...while canon doesn't tell us exactly what he did back then, he does mention having done "some damned distasteful things".

Also, while it's never confirmed, in the ep Need, there's hints that he may have been an addict...I don't remember the exact line, but when he's in the storage room with Daniel, he says something like "I know this" in reference to the withdrawal.

And, in the film, Jack was clearly contemplating suicide.

Qasim
April 27th, 2005, 10:12 AM
Its a bit like Anakin in Episode 2 - when you can see him beginning to lose it
Maybe Jack will turn into an uber-villain in Season 12.

fan of jack
April 27th, 2005, 10:25 AM
Jack having a dark side makes him abit more...whats the word? :rolleyes: ...interesting or appealing as a characture. It would be abit boring if he did'nt have a dark side and oooh what a nice dark side! :D LOL

Captain-Peregrine
April 27th, 2005, 12:44 PM
It makes him more real, too. If he was a stable character, then he would feel fictional because no one is that stable. I mean, I totally have by bad days, my worse days and my I'm-gonna-kick-your-butt-if-you-talk-to-me days, but I also have my good days and my I'm-so-happy-to-be-alive days. I mean, if he were always dark and dramatic, then it wouldn't be so real--and it would be kinda creepy :rolleyes: But since he's a darker character balanced quite nicely with his kind, caring, sensitive side and his sarcastic, funny, doesn't-give-a-damn side he's much more real, believable and likeable. I think the dark side in him--just like the dark side in Daniel--is one of the things that makes him such a likeable and believable character.

girlgater
April 27th, 2005, 03:43 PM
Jack is definitely a multi-dimensional character which makes him great. He has endured quite a bit in his life...the special ops days, losing his son, etc. All he has experienced would definitely lead one to have a "dark side." Although...he does have a good side as well. Both prove very interesting to watch.

________________________
-girlgater

melpomene
April 27th, 2005, 03:48 PM
I like Chain Reaction when he points the gun at Kinsey. I'm not sure he would have killed him. but I think he was pretty close. Oh I love the scene in Serpents Song when he turns to Janet and says "Let me know when he dies" and Janet looks caught off guard by the force of his hatred. Very deep.

yasureubetcha
April 27th, 2005, 10:24 PM
Speaking of leaving people behind...I know lots of people disagree with me on this, but Unnatural Selection defininately is a darker Jack time for me.
I hate that he thinks betrayal is not only necessary but justified when dealing with Replicators. If he'd claimed a necessary evil, that would've told me that Jack betrayed him because Fifth was so powerful and therefore a threat to Earth. It still would have bothered me, but even worse is that he said it was "the right thing." That seems to imply that he couldn't even seriously consider the possiblity of Fifth being genuinely good. Jack's inability to consider that his "enemy" might be honorable (like his early-season assertion that he will "never trust a Goa'uld") or worthy of remorse, at least, is for me a component of his dark side.

Osiris-RA
April 27th, 2005, 10:42 PM
I agree about that presentation of Jack's dark Side. He didn't seem to want to believe there was any good in the little feller. I remember a Samurai teacher who said while describing how the Samurai fought face to face with swords that they did so because while fighting, one is able to see the humanity in thier aggressor and the same for the aggressor. There was good in Fifth - but Jack helped to shatter that by playing on his fragile innocence and making Sam (who did so only too willingly) betray him. That lack of trust could be in the end, technically, Jacks downfall.

... but then, I'm a bit pessimistic. :D

fan of jack
April 28th, 2005, 01:54 AM
I agree about that presentation of Jack's dark Side. He didn't seem to want to believe there was any good in the little feller. I remember a Samurai teacher who said while describing how the Samurai fought face to face with swords that they did so because while fighting, one is able to see the humanity in thier aggressor and the same for the aggressor. There was good in Fifth - but Jack helped to shatter that by playing on his fragile innocence and making Sam (who did so only too willingly) betray him. That lack of trust could be in the end, technically, Jacks downfall.

... but then, I'm a bit pessimistic. :D
If sam must've known somewhere deep down jack was right or she would have protested more, me thinks. I can't see this causing sam to lose trust in jack, shes always trusted him, disagreed with him but always trusted him! :D

yasureubetcha
April 28th, 2005, 02:16 AM
If sam must've known somewhere deep down jack was right or she would have protested more, me thinks.

I really don't think so...Protesting out loud would've alerted Fifth that something was amiss. So there were only really two sides she could've taken: with Fifth, or with Jack. No middle ground there.

(New Order, Gemini) What happened in Gemini proves that Sam doesn't always trust Jack's assessment of the situation. And New Order shows that Jack was wrong, at least about the thought that by leaving Fifth behind they were taking care of the problem. The worst that would've happened if he'd come with them would be the unleashing of an evil replicator on the galaxy, which ended up happening anyway in New Order. And if they'd brought Fifth with them, chances are he actually would've been what he seemed to be: sweet and helpful. Of course Jack couldn't know this...but being kidnapped and mind-raped by a replicator because you followed an order might tend to affect your trust in the wisdom of the order-giver, at least in situations dealing with the replicators. I think that might've been part of the reason Sam allowed Replicarter such free access to her mind and the computers against Jack's urging, because she had already once recieved the consequences of Jack's repliphobic mindset.

sueKay
April 28th, 2005, 02:51 AM
Apparently...his unofficial backstory is this:

He was convicted of stealing cars and joyriding, and was given a choice of Jail or one of the Armed Forces.

Remember other drugs comments...

The Devil you Know

Jack: And then they gave me something...that reminded me of the seventies...

The Light

Jack:(when he's told he's addicted to the Light) After all those years of just saying no

Feli
April 28th, 2005, 05:26 AM
I agree about that presentation of Jack's dark Side. He didn't seem to want to believe there was any good in the little feller.

I'm not so sure about that. IMO it's not a question about him not wanting to believe there could be any good in Fifth, he simply couldn't risk it. His one and only priority was to get the time device working and bring his team home safely and in order to achive that goal he was willing to risk losing a potentially powerful ally in Fifth. Better safe than sorry, so to speak.

girlgater
April 28th, 2005, 05:29 AM
Remember too whenever Daniel was addicted to the sarcophagus in Season Two's "Need":

O'NEILL: DANIEL! God...What are you going to do, DANIEL? Do you want to kill me? Oh God, look at you. I know what this is. I know what it's like. You can get through it...

______________________
-girlgater

yasureubetcha
April 28th, 2005, 10:11 AM
His one and only priority was to get the time device working and bring his team home safely and in order to achive that goal he was willing to risk losing a potentially powerful ally in Fifth. Better safe than sorry, so to speak.

"And what about that pesky moral stuff?"
-Jack, Spirits

I agree that he thought it was necessary for the reasons you gave, but he didn't even really consider the moral issue. That's what makes it "dark" to me.

(Zero Hour) Jack was even ready to let Camulus go, with the justification that he "made a deal." This is from the man who said long ago that he would "never trust a goa'uld." Even the goa'uld get Jack's honorable side, but Fifth was collateral damage. Jack wasn't saying "it's what I had to do," he said it was "the right thing."

Lida
April 28th, 2005, 10:17 AM
If sam must've known somewhere deep down jack was right or she would have protested more, me thinks. I can't see this causing sam to lose trust in jack, shes always trusted him, disagreed with him but always trusted him! :D

I think that Sam knew that any protestations would fall on deaf ears. When Jack makes up his mind, he rarely changes it. I don't believe Sam was even remotely comfortable with the idea of leaving Fifth.....and I don't think she ever truly came to terms with it. But Jack was her commanding officer....period. Just my opinion.

Lunar
April 28th, 2005, 10:25 AM
Remember too whenever Daniel was addicted to the sarcophagus in Season Two's "Need":

O'NEILL: DANIEL! God...What are you going to do, DANIEL? Do you want to kill me? Oh God, look at you. I know what this is. I know what it's like. You can get through it...

______________________
-girlgater

And in Divide and Conquer:

"Hey, I've done the whole drugged out, strapped to the bed thing..."

Not exactly sure to what he might be referring to here, but certainly an insight into his darker side. I think another ep that shows 'dark jack' is Shades of Grey from Season 3. I know he's only acting, but the way he completly blows out his team and steals the technology... it's very believable. We wouldn't be taken in if we didn't suspect Jack had this dark side.

yasureubetcha
April 28th, 2005, 10:35 AM
I don't think this is "dark" in the normal sense, but the way Jack treated Rothman in Forever in a Day really bothered me. Jack is loyal to "his" people to the point of cliquishness. If he didn't like Rothman, he certainly didn't have to freeze him out and lie about him. Then when Daniel returned, the way he said "You're being replaced" without any attempt at explanation or concern for Rothman seems like a darker bit of Jack.

Feli
April 28th, 2005, 11:03 AM
I agree that he thought it was necessary for the reasons you gave, but he didn't even really consider the moral issue. That's what makes it "dark" to me.

Two points by way of explanation, not excuse:
No time
No Daniel (Daniel used to consider the moral issues for Jack)

wraith816
April 28th, 2005, 11:34 AM
No Daniel (Daniel used to consider the moral issues for Jack)
I think Daniel's had a major effect on Jack in that respect (even in a non-slashy way, mind you). You see in the film, how Jack was totally prepared to blow Abydos, but it was Daniel's efforts that helped him realize that there was an alternative...
Daniel is Jack's conscience...he's the one that gives Jack options, shows him other ways of doing things. I think if Daniel wasn't such a major influence in Jack's life, we'd see a lot more of "dark" moments from Jack.

girlgater
April 28th, 2005, 11:43 AM
I don't think Jack had any moral issue with leaving Fifth behind because Fifth was a machine. Yes, he had a "humanish" presence that was basically good until he was betrayed, but he was still a machine.

____________________________
-girlgater

yasureubetcha
April 28th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Daniel is Jack's conscience...he's the one that gives Jack options, shows him other ways of doing things. I think if Daniel wasn't such a major influence in Jack's life, we'd see a lot more of "dark" moments from Jack.
I agree, though Daniel has also (by being Jack's foil) showed off some of his darker moments, as in Red Sky, Beast of Burden, Scorched Earth, Menace, etc.

racer24t
April 28th, 2005, 12:18 PM
I will admit there are darkside to Jack but it good side outweights his bad. It makes him a better character and daniel is his "better half" if he was dark then sam would never have taken thier relationship so high.

wraith816
April 28th, 2005, 03:54 PM
I agree, though Daniel has also (by being Jack's foil) showed off some of his darker moments, as in Red Sky, Beast of Burden, Scorched Earth, Menace, etc.
Definitely...because Daniel is the type to look for options, it only makes it more obvious that what Jack is doing might not exactly be right...

The Other Side is the best ep for showing that, IMHO. Jack's willing to jump into bed with the psycho Eurondans, and Daniel clearly knows that something's up...if it weren't for Daniel's opinion, it wouldn't be nearly as obvious that Jack wasn't exactly thinking things through the way he should've been.

ravinia
May 2nd, 2005, 07:56 PM
Great comments all. I have to agree about The Other Side... that one is perhaps the coldest example in my mind... the camera staring into his dark, cold, unremorseful eyes... chilly. There's no room for doubt what he is doing and you know that look is coming from somewhere very deep and very buried.

Ravinia