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View Full Version : How advanced were the tollan in comparion to other races?



Wrai'uld
April 14th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Well which race that we have seen throughout SG1/SGA is most like the tollan. So, are they nearer the Asgard than the goa'uld or perhaps even similar to the wraith?

I personally just cant seem to place them, I was wondering if you guys could help...

buckner
April 14th, 2005, 01:17 PM
tauri, just in a few hundred years

Baal45
April 14th, 2005, 03:50 PM
I would have to say that they are several hundred year ahead of us.
We can under stand the basics of the crystal technology that the Goa'uld use as the basic structure for their ships, but with the tollans we don't understand a damn thing about their tech.

6thMonolith
April 14th, 2005, 05:11 PM
The Asgard are way too advanced, the Tau'ri not enough, Achen still not enough, and goa'uld not there, eigther. I'd say furlings...?

aAnubiSs
April 14th, 2005, 05:37 PM
The Tollan were very advanced in some fields (weapons and phase-technolgy) and very behind in others (hyperdrives). It would take a Tollan ships more then the rest of their lives to get there. The Goa'uld can cross the galaxy in 3 years.

Darth Buddha
April 14th, 2005, 05:39 PM
The Tollan were very advanced in some fields (weapons and phase-technolgy) and very behind in others (hyperdrives). It would take a Tollan ships more then the rest of their lives to get there. The Goa'uld can cross the galaxy in 3 years.
Excellent!

The whole "advanced/not advanced" one dimensional model (a number line, more or less) is proven to be the wrong model yet again!

Tain
April 14th, 2005, 06:00 PM
If i remember the episode correctly, it was stated that the Tollan are approximately 800 years ahead of us.

aAnubiSs
April 14th, 2005, 06:37 PM
The thing is one can't just say that they are 800 years ahead of us. Their development might've increased exponentially, which would mean they could be thousands of years ahead of us, or we might have an exponential advancement and they didn't. The Industrial revolution made up for some of the Dark Ages.

Darth Buddha
April 14th, 2005, 06:59 PM
If i remember the episode correctly, it was stated that the Tollan are appromiately 800 years ahead of us.


The thing is one can't just say that they are 800 years ahead of us. Their development might've increased exponentially, which would mean they could be thousands of years ahead of us, or we might have an exponential advancement and they didn't. The Industrial revolution made up for some of the Dark Ages.

Good point.

I suppose if the Tollan said the 800 years thing, then at least they'd have a reference.. to THEIR development.

But as I recall, it was Daniel who spitballed the absence of 800 years of the Dark Ages. Pretty weak.

Of course, humanity might have made up a couple hundred years in just two World Wars... after all, they certainly advanced technology a LOT by providing motivation.

Panther
April 14th, 2005, 07:37 PM
The Tollan were very advanced in some fields (weapons and phase-technolgy) and very behind in others (hyperdrives). It would take a Tollan ships more then the rest of their lives to get there. The Goa'uld can cross the galaxy in 3 years.

I believe their patchy level is due to their isolationism. I mean if you don't want to give anything to anyone why go find anyone? All they did was build up a "Fortress Tollana" (those who are into strategic analysis will get the pun ;)) and stay inside. Of course this had the unfortunate consequence of being caught off guard when Anubis developed shields to compensate for their phase technology. Because of their insular and parochial attitudes they failed to develop intel assets, and proper threat assesment structures and thus got bent over the table, and had to take it.

As Sun Tzu said "The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected."

Too bad they left earth so early. May have benefited from his wisdom.

Darth Buddha
April 14th, 2005, 08:05 PM
I believe their patchy level is due to their isolationism.
Excellent point.

Societies that develop in isolation are a lot more likely to develop at different rates in different areas. Consider how advanced some of the Central American astronomy was... in some ways in advance of European astronomy... and yet they weren't using the wheel (except on toys) or gunpowder.


I mean if you don't want to give anything to anyone why go find anyone?
An interesting theory... BUT, the destruction of Tollana was due to the elimination of their brother planet in their system. Could that have been many centuries ago? Maybe, but that seems a stretch.

Clearly they already HAD advanced tech when they WERE willing to share it, othewise they wouldn't have had that dreadful object lesson.

Panther
April 15th, 2005, 02:31 AM
I meant the culture as it existed when SG-1 meant to help them. I was under the impression that they renamed all their homeworlds to "Tollana". Now IIRC that planet they shared tech with was nearby and really didn't need FTL travel, but conventional

aAnubiSs
April 15th, 2005, 08:32 AM
Their first homeworld was called Tollan, the second one Tollana

Darth Buddha
April 15th, 2005, 09:02 AM
I meant the culture as it existed when SG-1 meant to help them.
O.K., but if they haven't BEEN isolationist for long, then expecting that isolationism to have an effect on their development is a little strange.


I believe their patchy level is due to their isolationism. I mean if you don't want to give anything to anyone why go find anyone?
Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your theory... can you give me a clarification? I'm not trying to provoke you here, just get the straight on what you are indeed suggesting.

Jarnin
April 15th, 2005, 02:52 PM
I've seen alot of these types of posts lately. The only way to properly measure how advanced a race is, is by measuring (or estimating) it's total energy production. This is known as the Kardashev scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale).

If you follow that link, you'll see humans haven't even rated at the lowest end of the scale. Right now, human civilization is rated at 0.7 according to a calculation that Carl Sagan did.

According to the scale and my very rough estimates:

Tauri: >0.7
Tollan: <2.0 (at the time of their defeat)
Goa'uld: >2.0
Asgard: >3.0
Ancients: >5.0

Those estimates have alot of wiggle room to be sure. Also, the Tollan haven't been in the series since season 5, and other races technology has advanced since that time quite a bit.

Panther
April 16th, 2005, 12:38 AM
O.K., but if they haven't BEEN isolationist for long, then expecting that isolationism to have an effect on their development is a little strange.
Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your theory... can you give me a clarification? I'm not trying to provoke you here, just get the straight on what you are indeed suggesting.

Ok, well this is basically what I was saying:

We are told the Tollan became isolationist after they gave technology to a nearby planet, at about our tech level, and using it they destroyed each other and the planet.

From that I theorise, that the Curia passed a resolution outlawing the giving of their technologies to other civilisations, not as advanced as they. Furthermore, they passed a second resolution to deal with theft and possible invasion by reassesing their strategic objectives, that they refrain from interference in other civilisations, and their defense plan was to defend their planet iff they were directly threated over their territory.

This type of thinking is called "fortress" usually applied to country or region it is applied to. An example is Frances Maginot Line. Now this type of strategic plan is usually flawed as it gives the enemy the initiative and time to plan counter-measures against this sort of defense (eg. France's Maginot Line was outflanked). Now since the strategic plan also dictates force structure and defense planning, this too would have affected them. They relied on planetary defense with their Ion Cannons, and probably arrayed their forces to respond to an invasion fleet, but once they saw their Ion cannons and weapon immobilisers did the trick, they probably stuck with those. Thereforce, other military technologies and planning would have lagged behind, and their technological research efforts would have been directed at other things.

Persuant to the second resolution, their spacefaring fleet would have also suffered, as there was no need for any advancements. They stayed on their planet, and didn't want to know what was outside their sphere of inhabitance.

My basic argument, is purpose dictates progress. Therefore, the Tollan's technology developed along these lines.

Darth Buddha
April 16th, 2005, 12:46 AM
My basic argument, is purpose dictates progress. Therefore, the Tollan's technology developed along these lines.
Well, then, I understood what you meant... I merely found the reasoning that so recent an event as the destruction of their world via the error of sharing technology would be too recent an event to substantially shape their technology.

Not so much to shape areas of STRENGTH, where I think your argument carries the day... their investment in the fortress mentality and your metaphor to the French strategy leading up to WWII is astute. But the theory becomes more problematic in terms of areas of weakness. Their relatively backwards interstellar vessels would represent a much longer period of neglect than the time frame of the story provides.

So I both agree and disagree. The fortress mentality shaped their NEW technology, but it fails to account for their somewhat more backwards space flight technology.

Panther
April 16th, 2005, 01:03 AM
Like I said before, they didn't need the ability to travel long distances. They didn't communicate with anyone outside their planet, and were not interested in mapping space, or assess what was out there and if it was a threat. They basically build a wall and stayed behind it, because that was their policy. No contact, no interaction.

Also, I do believe the destruction of their world (ie, the first time we meet them) was due to planetary cataclysmic events not from any war. As I recall, when that dude (forget his name) told Sam about the events and consequence of the technolgy sharing he implied it was a while back when the Tollan first developed some kind of spacefaring technology, which was necessarily limited in it's endurance, as they developed it internally without outside influence. You have to be able to walk before you can run. So their isolationism is probably at least a few hundred years old from a conservative estimate, with possibly half a millenium a maximum estimate.

Darth Buddha
April 16th, 2005, 01:07 AM
Actually, I believe the "natural disaster" that destoryed Tollan was caused by the unnatural destruction of another planet in their solar system... one which they gave access to their advanced technology.

If I'm right, then the "burnt hand" that taught the lesson of isolationism is recent. If I'm wrong, then you probably have it right.

Panther
April 16th, 2005, 01:13 AM
Anyone who has that episode on DVD or otherwise easy access, could you please contribute to this argument?

DigiEmissary
April 16th, 2005, 08:21 PM
The destruction of Tollan was due to the inhabitants of a neighboring planet destroying themselves (and the whole planet) with technology given to them by the Tollans, which shifted Tollan's orbit.

The Tollan are fairly advanced, in my opinion. They were able to build a new Stargate on Tollana when the original was destroyed (with the Nox's help.) I'll try to get a pic of it from the DVD tomorrow.

Panther
April 17th, 2005, 01:12 AM
Transcript from 1.17 "Enigma".

NARIM
The nearest planet in our solar system was called Sureeta. When we began to explore space, we learned she was inhabited.
CARTER
Did you make contact?
NARIM
Yes, when we thought they were sufficiently advanced. They were on a level very similar to yours.
CARTER
So what happened?
NARIM
We offered them a device…to produce unlimited productive energy. And they used it to make war.
CARTER
How bad was it?
NARIM
In one rotation of our planet, they had destroyed theirs.
CARTER
One day?
NARIM
The destruction shifted our planet's orbit point 3 tekanna, enough to begin a chain of events that…made our world unstable.
CARTER
So that would explain why he's so afraid to give a society like ours any of your technology.
NARIM
Yes.


However, it seems ambiguity is the order of the day. No time frame is given for these events. Seeing as we're speaking of planetary scale destruction it could be anything from hundreds to thousands of years.

Jarnin
April 17th, 2005, 02:55 AM
Transcript from 1.17 "Enigma".


However, it seems ambiguity is the order of the day. No time frame is given for these events. Seeing as we're speaking of planetary scale destruction it could be anything from hundreds to thousands of years.
Well, Narim said that they hadn't had animals on Tollana in his lifetime. The destruction of Tollana probably took a couple generations at least.

immhotep
April 17th, 2005, 05:10 AM
there closest to the ' new ground' people technologicly, but spiritually closer to the nox.

buckner
April 19th, 2005, 05:53 PM
I think that the tollan are as advanced as the asgard in some areas.

_Owen_
April 19th, 2005, 06:28 PM
I would agree with that, but only in some areas, in others they are far less advanced.

Owen Macri

buckner
April 19th, 2005, 07:12 PM
I would love to see thor walk through a wall!

_Owen_
April 19th, 2005, 07:19 PM
I'm sure they have that technology but the Asgard arn't the kind of people that have needs to use technology like that, they don't move a lot.

Owen Macri

LiquidAK
April 24th, 2005, 02:01 PM
There more advanced in somethings but not in others.

_Owen_
April 24th, 2005, 07:18 PM
I agree with that, I beleive that is the best way of describing, the comparison.

Owen Macri

Jarnin
April 25th, 2005, 12:15 AM
I would love to see thor walk through a wall!
Walking through walls is for primative races that don't have transporters.

_Owen_
April 25th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Thor likes using his hologram thing so that he can appear in his chair, and I get the impression the asgard don't like walking so much.

Owen Macri

Ote_4_T
April 27th, 2005, 01:36 PM
yeah, i agree with you owen on the asgard not walking much.. Most of it i belive is due to there small tiny little legs and balance issues due to their ginormus mellons.

_Owen_
April 29th, 2005, 01:08 PM
lol, after years of the cloning process dgrading their bodies, they would not be very strong, they could "break" easily.

Owen Macri

ayowza
May 7th, 2005, 03:17 AM
Tollan is a Nahuatl word that means 'the place of Cattails' (those reedy stalks that grow in swamps). More pertinent to this discussion, it's one of the names given to the ancient city of Teotihuacán, in Central Mexico, which has the largest of all the Mesoamerican pyramids. Tollan later came to be synonymous with a 'great capital' or 'great metropolis', and was also the ancient name of Tula.

Since Stargate worlds are generally named after real ancient civilizations and gods, given the mathematical and astronomical understanding that that Mesoamericans had, it wouldn't be unrealistic to assume the Tollans descended from some of the displaced builders of Teotihuacán, whose inhabitants disappeared around 600-700 years ago. Since they use gate technology more or less in lieu of space travel (at least for long distance) I would suspect it's also likely that they developed their technology with different social and cultural imperatives to that of Earth. I like the ‘fortress Tollan’ analogy because it is generally competition and an infusion of new ideas that causes technological development. Without that, it’s easy to become complacent. The question is, since they had gate technology, if they really were of a 'fortress' mindset, what did they use the gate for?

Yowza

Panther
May 7th, 2005, 03:46 AM
Lovelly, and the fact that they explained that the Tollan's were a Graeco-Roman civilisation just goes straight out the window. I wonder what the Teotihuacáns would have known what Curia meant, and even more so the concept of democracy or at least rule by the citizens.

_Owen_
May 7th, 2005, 11:30 AM
That is a nice theory, however you said,



whose inhabitants disappeared around 600-700 years ago.


This means that the Tollans were taken from Earth around 1300 A.D. however the Tollans must have been taken before this, there is not even any evidence that the Goa'uld were still on Earth then, and I believe that the Stargate was already burried, the Ancient Egyptians burried it in thier revolt against Ra, this would have taken place long before 1300 A.D. Thier revolt was well before Christ.

Owen Macri

Panther
May 7th, 2005, 09:42 PM
No the Tollan were secretly kidnapped from the Roman civilisation, probably in it's early stages, that is the Republic era. Here's a nice introductory article on the Curia (http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/romearchitecture/a/aa012903a.htm).

YodaMate
May 8th, 2005, 07:17 AM
my personal theory is that there was an increase in Goa'uld activity on Earth around 1,000 years ago. I was watching season 2 and the figure was used in a couple of episodes (the only one i remember for sure was Thor's Chariot ). I think the Asgard moved some of the Vikings to Cimmeria in response to this increased activity.

My main measure for making the leap between a solid space-faring race (like the Goa'uld) and an advanced race is non-fixed transporter technology (i.e. been able to pick up someone wherever they are and drop them off wherever without needing a specific point to do so). Funnily enough, by this measure the Ancients aren't advanced as we've only seen rings and transport rooms but i treat them as a special case :)

So far, only the Asgard, the Gadmeer, the Furlings and the unnamed aliens from Grace have demonstrated this capability. The Gadmeer are pacifists, breath sulphur dioxide and have no Stargate on their new homeworld, so not really a help in military matters. It's the unnamed aliens that really interest me and i hope that they appear in Season 9 (that's not a spoiler invitation, just a hope)

_Owen_
May 8th, 2005, 11:28 AM
Don't forget, the ancient rings, and they are ancient, in lost city part two they had them in the atlantus outpost, which far predates the Goa'uld, can half do what you are talking about, if there is not a second set of rings, where you want to go, the rings will come out of the bottom of the ship, i'm sure the ancients had knowledge of this technology, maybe even built it for some of thier cities, or ships, or cityships but they probably decided that they didn't want to use it, They are more than capable of building this technology.

Owen Macri