Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill Ship Discussion Thread

[Toomi]

Er.... is my computer going nuts or did the thread name change? It's cool either way

[VSS]

In the first movie, I think Jack came to respect Daniel as a person. But Daniel isn't the the reason why Jack eventually accepts Sam as a scientist- he's the reason why Jack doesn't like scientists in the first place! Where else would he have developed such a strong dislike for them? Not on a covert mission in the middle of Iraq or Siberia, that's for sure.

In the first movie, it was the scientists who started all the trouble (from Jack's perspective). And then Daniel very nearly got them all killed by choosing his love of scholarship over the safety of the members of the team. He said he could decipher the glyphs and get them home- but he really couldn't, until Sha're helped him find the gate address. I don't think that was a conscious attempt at deception, just his usual pattern of picking the opportunity to learn something over all other considerations.

And when Jack meets up with Daniel in CotG, he literally brushes Daniel aside in order to greet Skaara. If he's thinking about anyone while looking through that telescope, it's Skaara. Jack does develop a fondness for Daniel, eventually, and as others have pointed out they do have a significant effect on each other, but if you were to ask him who his best friend is, he'd probably say "no one". Or perhaps Sam, at this point. The guy wasn't in Special Forces for nothing. I'm sure he kept to himself well before Charlie died.

Even in COntinuum,

Spoiler:

what Daniel says is that he's "The closet thing you have to a best friend." Even he knows Jack isn't that close to anyone. But there's no way Sam or either of her team mates is going to say what she means to Jack (our Jack). That's just too much. They're trying to convince Jack they know him, not put him on the spot. Or make Sam feel any worse than she already does.

[majorsal]

I'm so glad I happened upon this forum! Love all the discussion - thank you for letting me join in.

All this leads me to wonder...

IF there's confirmation in the 3rd movie, just how much of a confirmation it will be? Will Daniel witness it? I was surprised in Continuum when...

Spoiler:

Daniel, Cam and Sam meet Alternative Jack on the submarine and Daniel insists he was Jack's best friend. I might have agreed with that sentiment in earlier seasons but not so much later on because...

He never really accepts Jack for who he is whereas Teal'c does. It's made abundantly clear throughout the series, particularly in the goodbye sequences in Lost City. The Daniel/Jack goodbye is barely a 'wibble' whereas the TWO Jack/Teal'c goodbyes (when Teal'c leaves with Bra'tac and then at the rings) are far more powerful. Plus, Teal'c seems to support and understand the 'thing' between Sam and Jack (like we do!). For me, it seems as if Teal'c was more a best friend to Jack.

I was also surprised that Daniel played best man in the 200 wedding.

From Jack's perspective, I would think he considers Sam his best friend. This is a key reason why I fell so hard for this ship, IMHO. He sooooo sees her as an equal (The P90 demo in The Warrior is just one wonderful example).

i agree; as the seasons went on, teal'c seemed more best friendy than daniel.

i also agree about jack seeing sam as his equal. (but i've got to wonder if they'd have any probs when going from co-workers to lovers? jack too protective or giving orders? sam feeling a big sense of freedom and ordering jack around? )

[majorsal]

I'm not sure I'd say Sam was Jack's best friend... not yet. I think Jack's a really hard guy to be a friend to, and I don't think he feels he needs many friends. He's got 'co-worker buddies' but for friends, definatly the rest of SG-1 and most likely a few outside of work.

(snip)

Sam.... well there's a friendship in any relationship, but I think that Jack guards himself around Sam more often than not, given their feelings for each other. Perhaps he's worried that if they get too close then he'll cross that invisible line and there'll be no going back. I can't think of any episode examples of him confiding in her in the later seasons, the same way he does to Teal'c and Daniel. (anyone else?) I think he tends to 'man-up' around her, and Sam doesn't push for answers like Daniel does.

i don't think, once jack and sam crossed from friends to lovers, that their friendship became instant best friends statis. but i do believe it would become that. it would be letting those walls down that would be the hardest i'd think.

[majorsal]

Good points and I think you're right (and I'm wrong). Jack really does keep to himself in his off time. He prefers his own company to a large extent.

I think the 'best friend' term came from...
Continuum Spoiler here:

Spoiler:

Daniel referring to himself as Jack's best friend.

Spoiler:

i 'think' daniel said, 'i'm the closest thing to a best friend you've got', or something close to that. i don't think he actually stated he's his best friend for sure. i think.

[gater62]

In the first movie, I think Jack came to respect Daniel as a person. But Daniel isn't the the reason why Jack eventually accepts Sam as a scientist- he's the reason why Jack doesn't like scientists in the first place! Where else would he have developed such a strong dislike for them? Not on a covert mission in the middle of Iraq or Siberia, that's for sure.

In the first movie, it was the scientists who started all the trouble (from Jack's perspective). And then Daniel very nearly got them all killed by choosing his love of scholarship over the safety of the members of the team. He said he could decipher the glyphs and get them home- but he really couldn't, until Sha're helped him find the gate address. I don't think that was a conscious attempt at deception, just his usual pattern of picking the opportunity to learn something over all other considerations.

And when Jack meets up with Daniel in CotG, he literally brushes Daniel aside in order to greet Skaara. If he's thinking about anyone while looking through that telescope, it's Skaara. Jack does develop a fondness for Daniel, eventually, and as others have pointed out they do have a significant effect on each other, but if you were to ask him who his best friend is, he'd probably say "no one". Or perhaps Sam, at this point. The guy wasn't in Special Forces for nothing. I'm sure he kept to himself well before Charlie died.

Even in COntinuum,

Spoiler:

what Daniel says is that he's "The closet thing you have to a best friend." Even he knows Jack isn't that close to anyone. But there's no way Sam or either of her team mates is going to say what she means to Jack (our Jack). That's just too much. They're trying to convince Jack they know him, not put him on the spot. Or make Sam feel any worse than she already does.

I don't think Jack had much opportunity to work with women while on covert operations-they're still not allowed in any of the special forces, are they? So I could see why Jack would be a little leery of taking a woman into a combat situation until Sam proved herself with the claymores (I just love that scene when she suggests how to set them up and Jack and Kawalsky comment that it sounds about right!)

I also never thought of Jack and Daniel as friends until much later in season 1. In the pilot, Jack brushes Daniel aside to see Skaara and that kind of reinforced my thinking.

[Amaunet]

I would find it hard to believe that they are all not friends...they've all mentioned it at some point during the series. Concerning them being 'best friends'...well after what they've been through together they've formed a special bond between them. I guess it's hard to distinquish between that and the definition of the word 'friend', which as Toomi implied means alot of things. But we have witnessed them spending time with each other outside of the SGC...if they weren't relatively close they wouldn't bother seeing each other outside of work.

[digitalred93]

On the subject of Daniel and Best Friends... You guys are right -- I had to go back and watch that section on my Continuum DVD.

We've been talking about Jack's professional views of Sam. Rewatching Fair Game, I get the impression he had a hand in her promotion from Captain to Major. I think we can all safely say he had a hand in her promotion from Major to Lt. Colonel. So the question becomes... were these purely examples of his professional opinion of her? I think so. There were frequent occasions where he seemed outright proud of her - The Warrior just being one example. But ya gotta wonder... The promotion from Major to Lt Colonel comes after D&C, after BtS, and after quite a few other clearly 'shippy' moments. I've often wondered how much of an internal struggle it was for Jack to put forth that promotion for her.

[Aveo_amacus]

I'm definitely not an expert, but from what I've learnt from Jenn and Seahen, although the CO puts in performance reviews that affect promotions it's a promotion panel that actually decide. It's not a 'hmm I feel like promoting Sam now', sort of thing. If memory serves, Seahen said that what Jack meant by "really cool stuff like this" is that actual pinning rather than actively promoting her...

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

ha ha I think Jack Promoted Carter to Lt.Col. because of her trying to find a way to rescue him and or the fact that she had a hand in saving earth from anubis's fleet. or it could be jack just over using the power as a General.

[gater62]

On the subject of Daniel and Best Friends... You guys are right -- I had to go back and watch that section on my Continuum DVD.

We've been talking about Jack's professional views of Sam. Rewatching Fair Game, I get the impression he had a hand in her promotion from Captain to Major. I think we can all safely say he had a hand in her promotion from Major to Lt. Colonel. So the question becomes... were these purely examples of his professional opinion of her? I think so. There were frequent occasions where he seemed outright proud of her - The Warrior just being one example. But ya gotta wonder... The promotion from Major to Lt Colonel comes after D&C, after BtS, and after quite a few other clearly 'shippy' moments. I've often wondered how much of an internal struggle it was for Jack to put forth that promotion for her.

The promotion to Lt. Col. came 3 years later; I don't really consider that after D&C and BtS. Is it the fast track? I certainly think so, but while Jack can recommend her advancement, he doesn't have the final say so.

[Skydiver]

as far as i know wiht promotions

Jack can recommend, just like he or hammond can put sam up for a medal (although hammond would ask jack's opinion of what happened, presuming that jack was present)

with promotions, the recommendation of the co is taken into account with time in service, time in grade (how long she's been in the air force, how long she'd been a captain) and with her general performance reviews, if she'd been disciplined officially, attendance, etc.

I think it's a point system, where everything good is worth points, everything bad takes them away and once you hit a magic number, you're eligible. Then it can sometimes be waiting for there to be an opening.

The armed forces can only have so many of each rank, so if the AF (making up numbers here) is set up to only have 4500 majors, a certain number of other majors might have to resign, retire, be discharged, etc, to make room for the new ones.

That's not to say that it's a pure numbers game. You can e promoted and placed above others if the situation warrants

I'm sure sam getting the air medal had just as much to do with her being a major as anything else. That and the facility needing command rank officers and there being a limited pool of officers with the abilities and clearance necessary.

Just working at the SGC likely put sam in a position to slip to the front of the promotion lists

[digitalred93]

Thanks for all the specifics on how individuals are promoted.

Back to my actual question, or maybe I'm trying to make a point here -- I'm not sure, it's too early and I haven't had my coffee...

There's been repeated comments in SG fandom regarding Jack having a sexist attitude toward Carter. Maybe Jack isn't directly in charge of her promotions but certainly he had a hand in putting forth recommendations, etc. Why would he do that if he didn't regard her in a high manner? (Professionally). I also tend to wonder how he privately felt about her promotions (emotionally).

[Petra]

Perhaps my use of the word 'female' in the bolded comment, was a bad choice of words.... I don't think that Jack was sexist, but when he joined the Airforce it was mostly men. He probably didn't work with many women on the 'front lines' for most of his career until this point. I'm not saying the Airforce is or was sexist, just that times and attitudes have changed.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to jump at you. It's just that it's almost a fanon that Jack had been a sexist in the "pre-Sam Carter era" and it drives me nuts, since IMO the show actually contradicts it.

You know... I had the same reaction to Emancipation the first time I saw it and then I just watched it again recently and noticed how Jack has every confidence that Sam will fight well in the last big showdown. Earlier in the episode, I think he's teasing her quite a bit about how the situation made life suck for her but I don't think it was ever a negative thing... just Jack having fun at her expense. He does that with everyone.

I'm with you here I've never seen Jack's behaviour in Emancipation as sexist. On the contrary, I think the episode was supposed to prove to the audience that Sam can handle herself and has a full backing of her CO. Because when exactly did Jack treat her differently because she was a woman? As Digitalred said, he showed nothing but confidence in her abilities and all the teasing suggests rather that he treats her as "one of the guys" - because come on, he would tease Daniel mercilessly if he was in her shoes..

Oh and rewatch?? Rewatch?? I'd love to do a selective rewatch with hard core discussions. For instance, my day's treat was to rewatch POV. The series never explored any sort of fallout from that last scene (Jack kissing Dr. Carter) but certainly the entire episode has to play into the development of S/J in "the only reality that matters."

Oh, I love POV. it's in my top 5 episodes in the entire series

On the friend vs brother thing, I want to throw something else out here and see if the cat licks it up: Teal'c and Jack were brothers-in-arms. Daniel, IMHO, was more like the oftentimes annoying, younger brother. You could see it in how Jack would react to Daniel's meddling in affairs. Younger siblings can do that. Younger siblings are also dang good at playing moral compass roles though typical it's a case of 'Mom said to...' In Daniel's case, his moral uptitude (yeah, that's a made up word) could be downright obnoxious from Jack's point of view. However, he did care a great deal about Daniel and, as he said in 100 Days, Daniel's almost always right.

Considering how Daniel lost all his professional ties once he joined the program and how, in academia, professional ties usually also serve as friends, it's little wonder that he'd consider Jack his best friend.

Agreed, again. Excellent points.
It's too long to post, but I also agree completely with what VSS' post. It's exactly what I meant, just said better.

And yes, Jack probably hadn't been working with a lot of women in his Special Forces days, but surely there must have been some? I know exactly nothing about Black Ops, but don't they do some undercover work as well? Or have local contacts or something?

[Aveo_amacus]

Thanks for all the specifics on how individuals are promoted.

Back to my actual question, or maybe I'm trying to make a point here -- I'm not sure, it's too early and I haven't had my coffee...

There's been repeated comments in SG fandom regarding Jack having a sexist attitude toward Carter. Maybe Jack isn't directly in charge of her promotions but certainly he had a hand in putting forth recommendations, etc. Why would he do that if he didn't regard her in a high manner? (Professionally). I also tend to wonder how he privately felt about her promotions (emotionally).

Personally, I think Jack being sexist is mostly fanon; he's (at CotG) a former Black Ops, Special Forces Air Force Colonel, I can't see him working with many women in a combat scenario so I'd imagine could easily have been apprehensive as to what this different dynamic is going to be like. But imo that's different to being sexist.
So I think you're right, he does have/comes to have high regard for her both professionally and personally, and I think he's proud over at each of her accomplishments not just her promotions. It's just due to the manner of their relationship S1-S8 you don't necessarily see it clearly.